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/lit/ is for the discussion of literature, specifically books (fiction & non-fiction), short stories, poetry, creative writing, etc. If you want to discuss history, religion, or the humanities, go to /his/. If you want to discuss politics, go to /pol/. Philosophical discussion can go on either /lit/ or /his/, but those discussions of philosophy that take place on /lit/ should be based around specific philosophical works to which posters can refer.

Check the wiki, the catalog, and the archive before asking for advice or recommendations, and please refrain from starting new threads for questions that can be answered by a search engine.

/lit/ is a slow board! Please take the time to read what others have written, and try to make thoughtful, well-written posts of your own. Bump replies are not necessary.

Looking for books online? Check here:
Guide to #bookz
https://www.geocities.ws/prissy_90/Media/Texts/BookzHelp19kb.htm
Bookzz
http://b-ok.org/
Recommended Literature
http://4chanlit.wikia.com/wiki/Recommended_Reading

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>Now some of you may not know this but Ol' Billy Shakes isn't just some irrelevant, wack-ass dead old white guy
>He was HIP, he was w i t h i t, he was basically an O.G. rapper
>Don't believe me? Listen to this:

>Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day?
>Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
(...)
>So long as men can breathe or eyes can see,
>So long lives THIS, and THIS gives life to t h e e.

>I mean...yeah...just bars

Could you do this with ANY author/philosopher?
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>>17388113
There's a whole tv show that's basically OP's premise but with ethics called The Good Place.
>>
HS kids love transcendentalism, so Emerson isn't a hard sell
>>
You can't get fade cut, trap listening dumbfucks into anything but funny/shock value books by blabbering for 3h/week. Nerds are gunners who mostly care about easy grades, niceness and ability to gossip during class in that order.
Have neat notes, be depressed funny and treat them as "colleagues", give a few easy grades to the nerds and if anyone reads ahead or borrows books from the library act shocked and compliment them to raise their ego if you want to raise good readers.
>>
I taught Shakespeare to high school kids. The idea of comparing Shakespeare to rap culture frankly repulses me. Basically I just did it like I was delivering a university lecture. The kids seemed bored at first but then started getting into the material. Basically I just gave historical context and explained tropes. If there was something unclear Shakespeare was referencing or getting at, I walked them through it. I gave short summaries after each stanza of what was going on if I thought the language was too obscure for them. We watched movie versions. They all clued in by then and loved the movies. I made one anime reference that slipped out by accident that surprised the kids and got a laugh. I never tried to be funny or hip or appeal to their interests, but they found humor in some of the stuff I said anyway. I had to bail on the contract after a semester. On my last day the kids clapped for me and one girl cried. Fuck teachers who try to relate to urban or youth culture.
>>
>>17388872
This

Nearly every kid isn't that much of a reader, but if you do manage to find some always treat them as if they were special and they will continue reading.

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Is this as bad as it sounds or is Popper worth reading?
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>>17388827
Conjectures and Refutations (a collection of essays) is better
>>
>>17388827
Logic of Scientific Discovery requires math prereq, is very dense and analytic. I'm thinking of 'Conjectures and Refutations' and 'Objective Knowledge' and 'Myth of the Framework' as his finest epistemology.

His best political philosophy is 'Poverty of Historicism'. Better condensation of the key ideas of Open Society without hundreds of pages of analysis of greeks, plato, hegel, marx.
>>
>>17388875
>hundreds of pages of analysis of greeks
But I like that unless it's done wrong.
>>
>>17388875
>His best political philosophy is 'Poverty of Historicism'. Better condensation of the key ideas of Open Society
He later condensed that entire book to a single argument:
Ideas have a huge influence on human society and history.
We can't predict what tomorrow's ideas will be; if we could they would be today's ideas.
Therefore we can't predict future society.
>>
>>17388999
Popper is an easy read so go for it if that's what you like

Lit on conspiracy theories and why people believe in them and adapt them as an epistemology?
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>>17388675
Thanks for the share that’s good stuff.
>>
>>
>>17388965
Nick Bryant is a fucking pseudo intellectual polemicist if I ever saw one.
>>
>>17387952
So Marxism is a conspiracy theory?
>>
This is now a redpill thread (but not the shitty /pol/ type about da joos and racial IQ statistics)

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>>17388966
I don't care about what you think, anon. You are a retard, look at this shit, can't even bait properly. You are either retard, underage or ESL. Or all of those. Why should I care?
>>
>>17388560
they are saying you are more intelligent and refined then them
example:
>Confucius: You must only eat till 7/10ths full or you will defile prudence
>Mencius: 7/10ths? Where is this from man should eat to his nature
>Confucius: haha filtered
>Mencius: Thank you
In this example from the famous annuls of the school of speech the fabricated conversations shows Confucius capitulating to his superior admitting that nature of man better dictates harmony then the meandering law
>>
>>17388735
Also not the anon but: People sometimes describe Hobbes as a filter, since his language is quite dense and idiosyncratic, which turns a lot of political phil. 101 people off reading him even though his ideas are important. This board loves Big Lit, so things like Ulysses, Infinite Jest, and sometimes Moby-Dick are described as filters: they're long, complex, and extremely literary. In other words, they're inaccessible to people who don't read a lot of literature--they're filters.
>>
>>17388984
I think you do care, you autistic spastic, otherwise you wouldn't still be on this thread. Truly, you are one of the most braindead faggots I've ever encountered, and I hope someone chops off your hands and you bleed to death x
>>
>>17389014
Not really, just got nothing to do, and it is not like I don't have fun looking at retards.

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are there any greek philosophy books that can help me improve my self discipline?
>>
>>17388989
No
>>
self discipline is like a muscle, you have to start small and exercise it consistently. start too big and you will fuck yourself up and make things worse than before, dont do it consistently and the habbit wont form
>>
>>17388989
read the sophists, parmenides particularly

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Post your top ten favorite books. Get judged.
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>>17387781
I mean this is obviously bait, but come on.
The Testaments, nigga? Marred backwood is to canadian literature what the cloaka is to a crocodile. Shame she's read so much.
>>
>>17388919
Cloaca*^ look it up, the wikipedia reads better than the testaments.
>>
In no particular order

Walden
Cape Cod
Dubliners
Odyssey
Iliad
The Turn of the Screw
The Stranger
The Sun Also Rises
Tao Te Ching
The Hobbit
>>
>>17387191
uggghhh why it gotta be 10
we all just vomit a bunch of shit and like one person gives out three-word (You)s

A Sand County Almanac, by Aldo Leopold
>>
>>17387191
Hemingway Collected Stories
Chekhov Collected Stories
A Sportsman's Notebook, Turgenev
The Red and the Black, Stendhal
Madame Bovary, Flaubert
The Sun Also Rises, Hemingway
The Magic Mountain, Mann
Don Quixote, Cervantes
The Brothers Karamazov, Dostoevsky
As I Lay Dying, Faulkner

Boring list but many of these are popular because they're great and have withstood the test of time.Most anons' lists will have the usual suspects

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Books where the protagonist flees from God but just makes himself miserable in doing so?
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>>17388583
Not exactly God, but Oedipus actively attempted to avoid his fate as prophesied to disastrous results
>>
>>17388583
what you described is Paradise Lost 100%
>>
>>17388583
Picture of Dorian Grey
>>
>>17388583
book of Jonah
>>
>>17388583
Jonah.

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>friend good!
>enemy bad!
Whoa...

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The ultimate Bakkerchad Edition.

Previous Thread: >>17375371

>Recommended reading charts (Look here before asking for vague recs)
https://mega.nz/folder/kj5hWI6J#0cyw0-ZdvZKOJW3fPI6RfQ

>Archive
https://warosu.org/lit/?task=search2&search_subject=sffg

>Goodreads
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/1029811-sffg
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>>
>>17388933
The entire series, books 1 to 3 are the crusade
>>
>>17388933
Series I is the not-Crusades. Series II is the not-War of the Ring. The fact that the books draw obvious and direct parallels to history and other literature doesn't make them less interesting imo.
>>
>>17388969
>doesn't make them less interesting imo.
Absolutely based.
>>
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>>17387470
>>17387470
Sounds to me you need more experience writing so that you can eventually find your own voice.
>>
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Fuck you Cheng Xin you are a stupid fucking bitch

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Literally what is the point of poetry? I feel like you would get a lot more from reading philosophy or history or fiction.
>>
>>17388896
It's just a language playground.
I'm not much into it because I am a content-before-form guy and poetry is literally the opposite, but I'm sure lots of people find it interesting.
>>
The more you read the more you will like it.
>>
Are you familiar with the concept of reading for pleasure?
>>
>>17388896
>Or fiction
Wrong.
You can get more ideas out of a single sonnet than many novels
Poetry is also the highest form of language. Poetry is a transcendental thing, philosophy and novels are for midwits.
>>
>>17388896
There once was a woman from Leath
Who pulled foreskins back with her teeth
It wasn't for money, or anything funny
But to get to the cheese underneath

Tell me that doesn't speak to your soul, anon.

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>Total mobilisation of power is a consequence of the will to equality.
How would Nietzsche respond to Tocqueville's understanding that democracy rises in hand with centralising power? This, even though it seems to be a contradiction, places the will to power squarely within the realm of modernity and the leveling process.
If Tocqueville is correct (he is) is there any way for a Nietzschean to resolve this contradiction at the center of his philosophy?
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>>17388904
This passage reveals that Tocqueville had explained the 'will to power' well before Nietzsche, while also revealing what lies behind it. Nietzsche bad character can also be seen in most of the statements, the immortal hatred of one's neighbours and the increased necessity for violence where difference is weakened.
With the will to power everyone is equal before abstract power. This absolves one in attacking great men, while increasing the frequency of these false and willless contests. But power in this sense is only a negative, it is the destruction of all value in the face of negative power - wholly in keeping with the transitional period and the elimination of the sacred. It is not for anything, and is thus nihilistic.

More clearly. Nietzsche's constant attacks on the greats are a means to eliminate difference, to force an equality with their power where he has none. Equality before power serves this purpose.
>>
>>17388868
The powerful natures do not necessarily dominate though. That's fate. Often the most powerful may be brought to ruin.
A tyrant may be killed for attempting to exert too much power.

Inb4 #thatswilltopowertho
>>
I'm not seeing the argument against Nietzsche.
>>
>>17388772
The will to power is a spook.
What the Nietzchian imperative really is, is this:
If you happen to find a god -- kill it.
>>
>>17388980
But the point is, will to power doesn't necessarily, or sometimes at all, mean wanting to exert physical or political control over others.

What do we think about Zizek's new masterpiece?
>>
>>17388863
abump

Post & Rate
Do both
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>>
>>17374062
I like the concept, but a lot of it is redundant. The word ;rigidity' is hard to use poetically because it complicates the meter--in this poem it's very disruptive to the rhythm. Otherwise good.
>>17375637
Like >>17376314 says, some lines clumsy, especially "I need this moment." and on-rereading the repetition of 'need' and 'paths' comes off badly as well. I like it a lot though. Some of the best in this thread.
>>17376314
Really clunky, a lot of the imagery doesn't work: "Smite the dead?" "Pierced by stolen greed?" Drowning? Metrically kind of a mess: the 'sir' lines are two iambic feet except the last one which is one iamb and one anapest, which reads badly given that the poem is mostly iambic (though it dips into trochee occasionally--probably accidentaly?). Unfortunately dosn't really say anything.
>>17376381
Probably my favorite in this thread. The Latin seems superfluous though, and the ending stanza's a little under-done.
>>17376456
Very solid sonnet. Some problems: "it shroud myself" is ungrammatical. "Which shall be shouldered through bushy dark" is hypometrical--maybe "through the bushy dark?" Given how rich the imagery is "with you I'm alive." is kind of jarring and disappointing. Imagery is there but actual meaning feels lacking IMO.
>>17379516
>>17379639
Great. Leaves me wanting more though. For a poem to be that short it needs to be more dense in meaning, otherwise it's just too short.
>>17388253
I like the rhyming and some of the alliteration. The bit from "Like summer..." to "...crying earth" is excellent. The last line is a bit of a let down, though. Most of the imagery works well but you might be getting lost in it: for example "Beneath the bleating ocean bleeding too" is too much. But it's very good. You read a lot of Romantic poets anon?

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>>
Foundations

Sunny day,
puss-clouds over firmament
blue, like lilies

(Carnations change color when
food-coloring is dropped in their water)

A madman beats at the wooden fence
beard rubbed raw in spots by his left hand
tremors--
On the right movement
Small Crack in the wire dark
he shifts, eye wide, shaking in socket

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>>17375637
Kinda clunky and I can feel the points where you stopped and restarted I think. I would recommend striving for a more specific affect in your reader and speaking your poem outloud to get a better feel for what you’re doing.

>>17376314
Doesn’t work in that short of a format, if it was a longer poem with more aesthetic queues the “oh sir obey” wouldn’t feel fake. (Not i)-dry line I feel comes off pretty good but the battle wets my tongue is boring imagery.

>>17376381
Not enough impact, by this I mean, you didn’t build up enough beautiful imagery to leave it memorable for beauty alone and you didn’t really try for anything else, so while it may be passingly pretty, it’s easily forgotten.

>>17376456
I’m bias of being absolutely bored of romantic based poetry, never was a fan of it, but other than that “from God” feels stilted.

>>17376866
Don’t worry so much about end rhyme, not rhyming in a line can be just as effective by lack, as can moving the end rhyme back into a internal rhyme. No reason to allow inspiration be a slave to a form/structure that goes against the beauty of a particular line.


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>>17379938
Yeah sounds vaguely black or perhaps like a joke song from Charlie from its always sunny in Philadelphia, I’d just complain there’s no direct joke or humor to it nor does it have enough pathos to really do anything for me.

>>17380384
Third line doesn’t flow so well with the second, redo it.


>>17383360
Less a poem and more a short story/humorous tale.

>>17383620
Is this supposed to be slam poetry? Like when you read this out what do you intend for it to sound like? I couldn’t get into it personally, feels like those political pseudo poems that insist upon themselves, but I mean you was young when you wrote it so I don’t hold it against you. Definitely write newer poetry with your age-given growth in self awareness.

>>17386050


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>>17388253
>She says her face is sloping down, too much,

Decent line but I dislike the “too much”

>As though the frothy ocean snuffed the moon,
>And that her beauty too would turn to rust,

Too much movement in your imagery too fast.

>Beneath the bleating ocean bleeding too;

Nice alliteration and profession of the imagery.

>She cries that eyes will chide her puffy cheeks,

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> This is not to say that Wilson’s politics take priority over accuracy; on the contrary, Wilson’s critical perspective allows her to correct the anachronistic misogyny that appeared in previous translations. In arguably the most disturbing section of the poem, Telemachus murders all of the slaves who slept with Penelope’s suitors. Wilson’s predecessors translated a descriptor of the young women as a misogynistic slur: “sluts,” “whores,” and “creatures,” to name a few. Some would argue that they were simply reproducing the sexism of Homer’s era, but according to Wilson, the ancient Greek word has no such dehumanizing connotation. Rather, it simply refers to “female ones.” There was certainly misogyny in Homer’s time, but this specific type of sexual shaming is an “imported” type of sexism. So instead, Wilson translates this word as “girls,” which both maintains the more neutral tone of the original Greek word and, in context, makes the girls’ deaths feel brutally harrowing:
>[S]o the girls, their heads all in a row,
were strung up with the noose around their necks
to make their death an agony. They gasped,
feet twitching for a while, but not for long
So her translation is just correcting the misogyny precent in other editions? Holy shit /pol/tards utterly btfo. I think I will be buying this accurate translation.
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>>17388776
>the ancient Greek word has no such dehumanizing connotation. Rather, it simply refers to “female ones.”
It's an assumption on her part that using the term "female ones" to merely identify someone didn't carry a dehumanizing connotation to ancient Greeks, which it did. It's a modern insistence that identifying individuals as female is neutral rather than inherently demeaning and applying that to ancient societies is anachronistic.
>>
>>17388776
it's obviously good to give correct translations, but why is it sexist? The maids cooperated with the suitors and shouldn't have been spared any more than the other men who did so. Odysseus kills them all because he can't tolerate opportunists, not because they were "sluts".
>>
https://kirkcenter.org/reviews/a-coat-of-varnish/
>>
>>17388915
to add to this. After all, just in the next sentence after hanging the women, they go on to kill the goatherd like this:
>Then forth they led Melanthius through the doorway and the court, [475] and cut off his nostrils and his ears with the pitiless bronze, and drew out his vitals for the dogs to eat raw, and cut off his hands and his feet in their furious wrath. Thereafter they washed their hands and feet, and went into the house to Odysseus, and the work was done.
>>
>>17388967
and Wilson's complaint is obviously just a marketing trick to draw attention to her translation by appealing to morality, as if she were the first enlightened and aloof one to translate the maids as women in a see of misogynist oppressors. This one is from the perseus website and from 1919:
> And as when long-winged thrushes or doves fall into a snare that is set in a thicket, [470] as they seek to reach their resting-place, and hateful is the bed that gives them welcome, even so the women held their heads in a row, and round the necks of all nooses were laid, that they might die most piteously.




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