So, hoy do you build up your antagonists that the party or crew are fucking up hopefully? Do you try and make their defeat more savory cause they’re complete assholes or do you try to make them complex and sometimes sympathetic in certain cases?
>>92556610Trying to make villains sympathetic is the worst pitfall a DM can fall into. Your players WANT to fight evil. They DO NOT WANT to feel bad about killing some maniacal overlord just because some kids took his lunch money 45 years ago or his dog died or some shit.UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you give a villain a 'greater good' motivation that actually turns out being true. Nothing is more infuriating than your DM delivering a long monologue about why you, and your character specifically, are retarded and THEY are so smart and are actually saving the world. (This path can be saved by the villain's plan "succeeding" then backfiring on them because killing 100,000,000 orphan puppies was not, in fact, the answer to the looming apocalypse, proving the players were right both morally and logically all along) Want a villain to be memorable? Make him an absolute bastard. Make him insult the players and then run away like a coward when things go wrong at their first showdown. Have him hire an assassin to kill one or more of the characters, etc etc. But don't lean on complexity or morality to make him memorable.Ultimately, the right way to build up the antagonist is to stack them up so that it will be MAXIMALLY satisfying to defeat them. Moral ambiguity and sympathetic motivations ALWAYS achieve the opposite.
>>92556692It sounds like you have not yet had the privilege of being culturally enriched by a group of orc gentlemen. I hope one day you are lucky enough to enjoy a fiery but mostly peaceful cultural exchange.
Make them sexy
>>92556610>hoyHOI!!
>>92556692Sympathetic villains are fine, but only if their overall goals are clearly in the wrong, even if they are misguidedly attempting to do something good.Making the villain right is closer to a pitfall. Understandably wrong is fine, and makes for a more grounded villain instead of the over-the-top kitten muncher type.
>>92556770>ai slop
>>92557533tis not
>>92557512>Understandably wrong is fineI'm personally a big fan of understandably wrong villains, and it's been a personal dream of mine to run a game where the PCs seriously consider doing the wrong thing knowing it's wrong which I think is the main strength of the understandably wrong villain.I also enjoy a sadistic moustache-twirling jerk from time to time as well, but ultimately it comes down to the feel you as a GM and your group are looking to bring to the table.
>>92556692First off, your ideal villain is giving serious Shane the Shy vibes.Second though, while that's fun every so often, in general I would say villains are human and should have motivations understandable to other humans. It's just that you're right that roleplaying games do not equal movies or stories, the plot needs to remember it exists so the players can have fun busting heads. Giving a villain good motivations should add motivation and depth to a character and make them feel more real, just not cut the legs out from under the campaign with pointless bickering over morals. For however sympathetic the villain is, the conflict needs to be first.Like a revenge plot maybe:> PCs live in a nice kingdom. Get famous and eventually befriend the king.> King is generous, gives good quests and rewards> Villain enters stage left! Commits acts of general badness. Chews the scenery, rants at the king, commits violence and makes plots to destroy the city where the PC keep all their stuff.> The players discover his identity as the kings older brother, who would have taken the throne. > The king betrayed him in his youth to take power (maybe because he realized his older bro was unstable).> Players can discover this and talk to villain, but the best they'll get out of him is agreeing maybe he is committing evil, but he can't give up his revenge and hes willing to make people suffer to get it.> Ending: Villain is defeated, king is upset and explains why he betrayed him and how he regretted it etc. Players can choose to expose king's crimes for moral reasons, but the best this really does is lose them someone in debt to them and probably destablizes the kingdom.> Hidden Ending: Villain is talked down to *only* taking his revenge against the king and his supporters. Final boss fight turns into fighting the king and his soldiers they've probably gotten to know so the villain can take his 'rightful' place on the throne. Lot of beheadings.
>>92557935a villain only reaches Shane the Shy level if they get away every time, a villain making one clean getaway is enough to get the players cheering when they die.>source: was in a campaign where each of the main villains managed a clean getaway and everyone cheered when they died
>>92556692You're half right. A good villain has reasons to not just kill the party, maybe he wants them alive, maybe he sees them as too beneath him to deserve his personal attention, but if he's always running away like a coward then there's no menace, he doesn't feel like a threat, he feels like an annoyance.
>>92556610It's a bit unsatisfying to defeat a final boss that is pure evil with no sympathetic elements. I have no philosophical objections to such a story, it's just not that satisfying.
>>92556692This is actually true. Running an RPG campaign is different from writing for a vidya or a fantasy novel.Think of it as a theme park ride, players want to be entertained and have a good time, not to think too deeply about stuff. When in doubt, go for what they'll enjoy.
Tell me if you think this villain is sympatheticKor was the son of Gor, chieftain of the Agarians, a barbarian tribe in the region of the world known as the “Barbarian Lands”. Growing up, Kor was willing to do anything to prove his strength. By the time he was fourteen, he was already a fearsome warrior, favoring the greataxe. As a young man, Kor became the chief war leader and enforcer for his father. He led many raids on other tribes especially against their mortal enemies the Terveri. Soon after Kor grew into manhood, Gor arranged a bride for his son. He was to marry Thesna, daughter of Eretil, chieftain of the Franes, for the price of seven cows. Shortly after making this arrangement Gor passed away peacefully in his sleep and was honored with a great feast. Kor was still mourning his father’s death when he learned that Eretil had broken his promise to marry his daughter Thesna to Kor. He was instead planning to marry her to Agaric, chieftain of the Terveri.1/2
>>92558320Kor gathered his warriors and led a raid into the great hall of the Franes, killing many as they slept. Eretil awoke in time to meet Kor in battle, but the old chieftain was brutally defeated by the powerful Kor. Kor brought Thesna and Ilva, the widow of Eretil, out naked before his warriors. Kor boldly declared that he was “Kor, Taker of Widows''. He and his warriors plundered all the gold and treasures of the Franes, including their livestock and returned to their homes rich in the spoils of their conquest. When the Terveri heard news of this conquest, Agaric came to confront Kor. He entered Kor’s great hall demanding that he release Thesna and give her to him as Eretil had promised. He demanded that Kor release Ilva as well. In response, Kor had his warriors butcher Agaric's men. Kor’s warriors disarmed him and restrained Agaric. Kor then told Agaric that he was going to “cut off his head and drink from his skull” as he decapitated him with one fell swing of his greataxe. Kor rallied his warriors and plundered the Terveri of their women, treasures and livestock. The few Terveri warriors that remained to resist them were disheartened by the loss of their chieftain and surrendered. Kor had each man executed and razed the Terveri village to the ground. Kor, now confident in his supremacy, adopted an ox skull mask as a symbol of his strength. He pillaged neighboring tribes forcing them to pay tribute to treasure, livestock and daughters. Kor, Taker of Widows, is now one of the most feared chieftains in the Barbarian Lands known far and wide for his strength and brutality.2/2
>>92557431kek
>>92556692The most memorable villain I made was an egocentric shitty (not really a) queen who acted all might but the first moment she realized she was at a disadvantage and was about to get her ass kicked, she ran away.And then later joined the party as a supporting NPC (with a couple of conditions) and became their friend just like a Jojo character.
>>92556610How hard is it to write a villain that's a mustache twirler but can get shit done themselves if need be?
>>92557533its just bad art lol
>>92556692>Trying to make villains sympathetic is the worst pitfall a DM can fall into.No, making MAIN villains sympathetic is a pitfall. Making lieutenants and subsidiary antagonists sympathetic and understandable so the players can grapple with their beliefs and/or sway some of them to the side of good is kino as fuck. The final showdown should be good versus evil, no question, but the road there should involve at least some opportunities for redeeming servants of evil.Though it's worth noting that a villain can have STARTED OUT as sympathetic and understandable, before going so balls-deep on the sunk cost fallacy that they now refuse to accept the true cost and meaning of their actions.
>>92556770
>>92556692I'm playing in a campaign where the villains have a 'greater good' motivation and I find it really engaging.
>>92556692>Nothing is more infuriating than your DM delivering a long monologue about why you, and your character specifically, are retardedI'm in a game where it's practically nothing except this and is increasingly becoming NPC power hour where we, the player characters, kind of just stand to the side and watch. It's exactly as infuriating as you might imagine.
>>92556610>warlocksCharismatic and popular.>demonsAscended masters, charisma-maxxing.Demons claim to've been former warlocks to make mundanes consider becoming one. First the spirits play a game of bad cop and good cop. Warlocks can choose black magic or white magic, live your life as you want it or strive for apotheosis respectively, and they'll try to get the PCs to participate. The black magic side and the white magic side get entangled into a world-wide war to determine who comes out on top. Their common enemy is an outer god who wants to destroy the world. They carefully neglect to mention that the world is failing and needs to be replaced.
I play a lot of Forged in the Dark games, and something I love about it's cycle of play is that there's a distinct Downtime Phase where we can zoom out from individual actions to show off all the different schemes and personal story objectives of the player characters. PCs aren't the only ones who get to do Longterm Projects though, I can have friendly and enemy factions roll to advance their clocks too, and bring the players in on the meta level about what the villain's current plan is. Watching Lord Scurlock's plan to create an army of demon-blood infused assassins tick closer to completion every week makes the players care about it too, and lets them be proactive about stopping it if they want. When your players know they're empowered to shape the story through their actions, you're allowed to crank the knob up to 11 on how evil and capable the villains are.
>>92560032sure
>>92557935>>92558119I should clarify I meant give the villain ONE cowardly escape. Nothing gets players mad like a guy they hate, who has magic items they WANT, getting away scot free. Just once.>>92560099I don't doubt it. Happy your DM is making it work somehow>>92560155Yeah my onus for my whole post was an experience similar to yours. About 4-5 month long campaign that was just going around listening to NPCs talk to NPCs about NPCs so the NPCs could tell us where to meet the next NPCs... and the main villain was actually us all along! What a twist! Bleck.
>>92556610LUCIFER SEXO
Orcs are good villains
