eBay, sold listings, do your own research.

the answer is "as much as someone will pay"

>>4307849
I have one. GOAT point-and-shoot film camera of all time. Also great to pull out whenever the 'tards and manufacturer reps start going on about how it's impossible to fit a ff sensor in a small camera.
I believe this was also Olympus's very first aspherical element lens.
I wish I liked shooting film, but I'm done with that shit.

>>4307849
'bout tree fiddy

>>4307864
>Also great to pull out whenever the 'tards and manufacturer reps start going on about how it's impossible to fit a ff sensor in a small camera.

You do understand that film is much thinner than a sensor and all the accompanying electronics, right?

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>>4307875
F3 digital slr now or I'll bomb nikon HQ

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>>4307875
Leica fit 61mp in a film camera just fine
The a7cr is SMALLER, but the mount is 2mm too narrow and sony is too retarded to build a pancake. I doubt 2mm of mount would make the a7cr much larger. Snoy done goofed.

>>4307877
>>4307864
>camera and optics engineering understanders have entered the chat

>>4307877
A leica M is a far cry from the mju II in terms of size, you nitwit.

>>4307875
>film is much thinner than a sensor
Mask-film-pressure plate-spring, not to mention the positioning mechanism. Together it's plenty of room for a sensor.
Not too mention that the film camera also has a compartment for the film roll and another for the take-up reel. Plus the film advance and motor. Lots of space is freed up when you take out the film parts.

>>4307913
oh cool that's why we see so many pocketable full frame cameras

>>4307927
Yah, that was kinda the point. It's something that camera manufacturers could do, but they won't.

>>4307933
Or, hear me out, they actually can't do it and you and everyone else who thinks they can is a fucking retard.

>>4307934
No u

>>4307875
I don’t care about whatever excuses you can come up with, you can’t cram an ff sensor where film would fit, you fail, simple as.

>>4307934
And you base this on what? Your uncle who works at Sony?

>>4307934
They can

But first they must remove the heatsinks
Now it's unreasonable to record more than 4k 30p for 20 minutes, and 10fps shooting for more than occasions is not recommended - sports photographers should simply admit they are talentless hacks who rely on gear to do all their work.
They must also make the battery an integrated LiPo bag, meaning it's time for you to invest in power packs. Swappable batteries are space inefficient.
The card slots are also rather space hungry and must be replaced with a soldered on SSD

>>4307864
out of all the cameras I've ended up selling, I regret my Mju II the most
it was the perfect little pocket camera for snapshots

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>>4307975
>muh battry
>>4307975
> heat sink
The sigma fp seems to manage.
In fact the only reason the Sigma fp is larger than the Mju/Stylus Epic is that Sigma made it an interchangeable lens camera. Lose the lens mount and the camera height can be reduced even further. Just graft in the lens system from the Olympus, or something similar.
And this is why we don't have these neat ff pocket cameras... None of the current camera makers are going to make a fixed-lens ff for two reasons:
1) It would be awesome. They hate awesome.
2) It would revive the digicam market and win consoomers back from their smartphone cameras, thus leading to profitability and success. Camera makers hate success.
And yes, Oly did a zoom version of this camera too, same size.

>>4307875
Don't forget that you need to multiply sensor size by 2 because digital interpolates but color film has full color information

>>4308002
Just use foveon, now you're limited to iso 400 just like god intended

>>4307849
Nice Mewtwo bro

>>4307962
I base this on 25 years of photography experience and knowing that there has never been a full frame body in a mewtwo-sized body.

>>4307975
I mean, if they did all that, it would still sell like fucking crazy. You're basically describing a smartphone. People use fixed-lens smartphones for all manner of content creation, because they can always have it on them.

>>4307957
dawg you of anyone should know. Nikon just released a ZF which is supposed to emulate the FE2/FM2 body style and it's still substantially chonkier.

>>4307961
Did you mean to reply to the post where I said exactly that and then try to contradict me by agreeing with me?

>>4308097
I may incidentally agree with the conclusion, but I disagree with how you got there. You seem to be saying something along the lines of “they haven’t done it yet so surely that means it’s not doable”, while I’m saying they haven’t done it because they’re faggots and refuse to. We are not the same. Not sure what you get from being a big corpo apologist somehow but you do you, man.

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>>4308097
its a gay little mirrorless video camera though, not a real photographers camera

i'll say it first, mirrorless was just a way to get cheap full frame video and now you niggas are trying to take photos with them

>>4308099
If they could, they would. Between Sony, Canon and Nikon, there have been so many weird one-off models were obviously some engineer's passion project.

A pocketable full frame camera is a no-brainer and would make a ton of money, and the first one to bring it to market would make a ton of money. The fact that no one has seems to suggest that it is, in fact, impossible.

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>>4308102
bih i dont even want a pocketable camera, just a digital F3 WITH A MIRROR which is 100% doable considering the size of the FP

>>4308103
That is way more niche than a pocketable full frame. Just shoot film, nerd.

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>>4308105
i do, doodoohead. i just want another meme camera a'la digital leica and i know theres a market because otherwise digital leicas wouldnt exist

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>>4307849
Keep it and use it. One of the best cameras ever made. Pure soul.

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What sets this camera apart from the myriad of similar cameras of the era? Also it seems to be prone to breakage.

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>>4308185
Truly pocketable and smaller than any other 35mm camera I've held.
Sharp lens, 35/2.8 is faster than most point and shoots.
Reliable autofocus and metering.
Program mode keeps the aperture open and shutter speeds high.
Has a spot meter mode.

There is no alternative.

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The mju i is superior to the ii

>>4308194
Contax t cameras. Pricey, but quite nice lil cameras.

>>4308002
>spots of color dye are better than digital!
Color film interpolates color via spots of dye of varying size and density. It has 3-4 dyes to work with, and a dye is one color. It's bound by grain/dye spot size which is why film tonality and color fidelity are tied so closely to film size, and to ISO for a given film size. At 35mm size it's easy to spot tonal and color transitions that are not smooth, grainy, and/or blocked up, even at low ISO. It's also easy to find colors which the film simply cannot distinguish and record. Film works very much like a modern inkjet printer in this respect.

Digital pixels are analog before the ADC and are bound by noise. On modern sensors a single pixel can record 16k distinct tones at base ISO. A piece of film the same size as that pixel would be lucky to record a few tones (B&W) or colors. Digital has to look to neighboring pixels to reconstruct the exact color at any given point, but it works very well given the depth of information. The result is that at base ISO even small sensors can yield accurate colors and smooth transitions. In this respect digital works like your retina.

When measured good FF sensors have tonality and color fidelity (gamut and accuracy) superior to film. You need 6x9 to even compete and 4x5 to be close enough that viewers will never notice in a large print no matter the subject.

Note that color fidelity is not the same as color palette or "I like these colors." Films are designed to yield a certain look while RAW is made to be flat and neutral, leaving the look up to you. As an example, Velvia's palette is magic under the right circumstances. Portra can also be beautiful under the right circumstances. But neither can compete with FF digital on gamut or accuracy, even when using a larger format.

>>4308008
Foveon ironically has has lower color fidelity than Bayer sensors due to noise. But there are large areas of its color gamut where it can resolve finer spatial detail (assuming identical pixel density, not their 3x MP rating). It's also sharper ooc for lack of interpolation and lack of an AA filter. A Bayer sensor at 1.5x the true MP pretty much matches it in all respects, and fully matches it by 2x.

The other aspect to Foveon is this: Sigma makes sure that their cameras produce a "look" similar to E6 slide films which is popular and plays into their marketing. Even with RAW you have to pull back on some settings to try and get to neutral. That's not inherent to three layer sampling, it's a conscious choice with the sensor color profiling.

>>4308431
I should add that at the edge of the sensor's gamuts there can be some colors that Sigma nails but Bayer struggles with. So there are places where Sigma's gamut is larger, but also places where Bayer's is larger. Over most of the gamut...the overlapping part...Bayer can distinguish more colors and therefore has higher accuracy.

>>4308431
So it's perfect for a film larp digicam

>>4308382
Too bad the electronics could simply shit the bed one day without warning, otherwise I'd buy a T2

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>>4307875
>You do understand that film is much thinner than a sensor and all the accompanying electronics, right?
They could fit all the support circuitry for an APS-H sensor on a single board in 1995.
There's no reason that nearly all of it couldn't be done by an SoC today.
The problem is, every manufacturer wants to add IBIS, a rear LCD, video capability and a bunch of other unnecessary shit to their cameras.

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>>4308590
Most of the space is being eaten up for swappable batteries and cards plus better heat dissipation.

All of this can be disposed of but you essentially fuck videographers and professionals in the ass while doing so. imagine
>camera takes 2x micro SDs and requires dissasembly for a battery swap, is charged via a weather sealed USB-C port
>records 4k 30p for 20 minutes before overheating

>>4308590
IBIS units are small. You can cram 5 stop IBIS in an olympus epl-#. And necessary. No stab is unforgivable but please keep that failure prone shit out of my lens that is supposed to last across a literal lifetime of bodies (also, please go back to mechanically coupled focus rings and aperture controls, auto as a setting is acceptable if i can still control it when the aperture motor dies)

>>4308598
The grip has more than enough room for an interchangeable battery.
The Df proved that video capabilities were unnecessary for a commercially successful photography camera.

>>4308599
IBIS precludes the sensor from using the back plate as a heat sink.

>>4308600
Grips are not needed or wanted in a compact camera. Or most cameras period. They are a gimmick feature for journalistic snapshitters who lug around 24-70s and were never necessary, back when photography was still good. They should be entirely optional just like battery grips but it became fashionable to make it a forced feature to flag a camera as "pros only" (and thus sell it to more amateurs!)
>The DF
Was released in an era where people didnt even expect much video capability. Today it wouldn't fly.
>Ibis precludes
It also precludes carrying a tripod or relying on fast lenses to take shitty blurry photos just to avoid taking even blurrier photos. OSS is even worse, because it bloats up an increasingly protruding lens and has a higher failure rate.

>>4308598
>but you essentially fuck videographers and professionals in the ass while doing so
And thats fine, not every camera has to be a sad compromise hybrid shooter.
The Leica M-D proves that people ARE willing to buy what is essentially a digital film camera, even at a ridiculous price point.

>>4308606
The price point actually tells you that it's very few people, not something super popular.

Also see: IBIS stops ratings. More than 3 stops is of questionable use for stills photography and most people sway, while IBIS is rated against simulated essential tremor, which means that even with 8 stop IBIS they dont actually get sharp photos lower than 3 stops under the 1/mm rule. So what's it for if you only need 2-3 effective stops, and the average person gets that with every IBIS sytsem rated from 3 to 8 stops unless they sit down/lean against something and really, really try?

Video.

>>4308607
If nikon released a digital f3 i'd put my money where my mouth is and buy it even if it costed as much as a leica and many other ppl would too

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>>4308610
>>4307876
RETVRN

>>4308613
When chimping was a major flex.

>>4308605
>Grips are not needed or wanted in a compact camera. Or most cameras period
Small ones are.
There's no reason not to have one if the lens protrudes out as far if not further.

>Today it wouldn't fly
They said the same thing when the Df was released.

>OSS is even worse, because it bloats up an increasingly protruding lens
OIS units can be small.
Canon manages to implement it even on their telescoping RF-S lenses.

>has a higher failure rate
What brand are you looking at?

>>4308590
"they could but they won't" is the dumbest fucking argument.

They can't, otherwise they would have. You don't think Ricoh is chomping at the bit to put out a full frame GR? Or Nikon who put out the coolpix A? Or Sony, who already has a ton of compact fixed-lens cameras?

>>4308650
They could but they wont make enough money
Whats the market for this? Sniveling street “photographers” that think an a7c/leica is too big. All 500 of them. Whats the R&D cost? Manufacturing, with hand assembly because its a low volume thjnf?

Its called market dynamics. Your alternative is the dictator manchild making everyone play with his favorite toys until the economy totally collapses in ~20 years.

>BUT RICOH
Their entire camera division is a tax writeoff. They havent even upgraded the GR’s shit sensor.

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>>4308650
more like the fags up in the ivory castle dont fucking dare because MUH GROWTH MUH SHAREHOLDERS

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>>4308653
>Whats the market for this?

I dunno, the millions of smartphone-raised zoomers who are absolutely dominating the used digicam market because they want something functional and cool and slim that they can put in their pocket?

The millions of millennials who are painfully nostalgic as they face down the barrel of their forties and want something cool and fun to make them feel young again?

Boomers who want something slim and easy they can carry with them on vacation?

Like, the X100Vi is on backorder everywhere, and you're asking where the market is for small, high quality fixed lens cameras?

This goes for you too, >>4308659, idiot. A pocketable full frame camera would dominate the consumer market segment. It's not for pros, although it would be for some. It's for the fucking consumer and enthusiasts.

>>4308650
>You don't think Ricoh is chomping at the bit to put out a full frame GR?
They seem pretty content with pumping out the HDF versions.

>Or Nikon who put out the coolpix A?
Nikon couldn't make it in the compact market.

>Or Sony, who already has a ton of compact fixed-lens cameras?
Fixed lens cameras only serve to take away from their lens sales.

>They can't, otherwise they would have
I hope you're being paid to make excuses for their inadequacies.

>>4308653
>Their entire camera division
what does ricoh do besides make cameras

>>4308653
You should crowdsource your own. Just make a pretty looking 3d model and a great marketing video to get the initial capital and hire out the design to a crack team of Indian engineers for the cheap.

>>4308670
>the millions of smartphone-raised zoomers who are absolutely dominating the used digicam market
A newly manufactured full frame compact would at least an order of magnitude more than even the most hyped digishit.

The millennials and boomers would be your target demographics.

>the X100Vi is on backorder everywhere
That's only because Fuji is prioritizing GFX production.
You also have to keep in mind that it took five generations to get to this point.

>>4308679
>what does ricoh do besides make cameras
Office equipment and endoscopes.

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What about this one? Is it too cringe to be a part of the discussion? Looks pretty small to me.

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>>4308684
camera is small
lens is huge (for a compact)

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>>4308686
Shit. So true. This one could fit the bill, maybe? It weighs like 1lb 2oz with battery, and you could surely get a pancake lens that's shorter than the grip.

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>>4308688
>you could surely get a pancake lens that's shorter than the grip
You could, if the image plane was anywhere near the back of the (s)camera.

>>4308670
Why are you calling me an idiot? Idiot.
I'm agreeing with you.

>>4308684
These things break all the fucking time

>>4308695
And yet nikon Z has one

>>4308519
Yes

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>>4308701
want.

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>>4308767
Canon needs to get the salarymen off the jenkem and RF-ize the 40/2.8 dammit! That lens was great and small.

>>4308788
They made a 28mm pancake for rf. Its sharp but canon totally omitted the weather sealing. Nikon did not, but you need to use the hood and a clear filter (the rf 28mm f2.8 pancake doesnt even have a hood)

>>4308701
>>4308767
>>4308788
If you don't mind being limited to wide angles.

>>4307849
give it back Jamal

>>4308696
i'm sorry, i get a little spicy sometimes.

How much better is a full frame camera than an APS-C

>>4309093
1.5x better

>>4308806
Nikon made a nifty fifty sized 40mm f2
Sony made "film sized" 24, 35, 40, and 50s (but slower, f2.5-f2.8)
Sigma made a "film sized" 90mm f2.8

Small lenses are possible, but unwanted because most customers are pros or larpers that want f1.2 for the brides bokeh fetish

How reliable are these fucking things? I really, really want one but I don't want to spend 300 bucks only to have it die after a couple of rolls

>>4309168
Super reliable, because simple design, it just werx. Specially those that are obvious barely used. Ill sell you mine for $350, zero scratches, no dirt, immaculate glass, snappy buttons, bet has 5 rolls history MAX.

>>4309178
no you're gonna scam me otherwise I would