Just finished this book. Thank you to the anon that recommended it i love you.Very fun book but the ending of the 2nd story has some annoying plot holes. Also what rhailto did in the end is absurdly evil. I didn’t expect him to do it seeing as he acted a lot kinder especially in the first story and the beginning of the second.
>>23331068haven't tried this one yet but finished Cugels Saga and Eyes of the Overworld recently, Cugel is a lovable psychopath and his shenanigans are usually funny, though it got a little depressing after a while reading about all these dynamic interesting places he'd visit then completely destroyalso everything J Vance writes reads like a short story collection, the Dying Earth books especiallyThe Lyonesse trilogy also has that going on with a large section of the last book focusing on a quest for the Holy Grail out of basically nowhere, it works though and is one of the best parts of the series
>>23331068Rhialto's the only Dying Earth book that didn't really stick with me. The only thing I remember is the two wizards jerking off, something about time travel and all the wizards flying in their magic house spaceshipIf you've read all of DE you should check out Songs of Dying Earth. It's hit and miss, but the hit's are good
Cugel is the funniest but I liked Rhialto the second best of his works. It very much felt in the same continuity as Cugel
>>23331422Cugel isn’t a psychological so much as there is no ethical fiber in that time at all unless it is religious Talmudistic sort. Even the woman he rapes and the other woman he sells into slavery were very shitty people like he himself is
>>23331422I don’t remember anyone jacking off. What you talking about?
>>23331068Is this the one with the wizard who clones the girl? I really loved that one a lot. I need to re-read Vance.
>>23331723This is the passage I was thinking of, although it seems I am mistaken
>>23331794No that’s the first book in the aeries. The Dying Earth. Rhialto the Marvelous is the fourth book. Books two, three and four have the same setting but are much more humorous and in a way spoof the first book. Think of it like how the Evil Drad trilogy was
Check out the Demon Princes, Alastor, and Planet of Adventure series
>>23331422>>23331530>>23331542>>23331794>>23331827>>23331858>>23331986Op here. I also really liked the book because it’s about wizards. Any other recommendations for books about wizards?
Vance is one of the best Fantasy authors of all time whose works spans half a century, yet no one that isn't deep into the genre seems to know who he is. It's perplexing>>23331986I loved Planet of Adventure. The only two women with names in the whose series are both characters the MC fucks. It's a pulpy space adventure at its core aimed at a younger audience, but it's filled with that Vanceian creativity that elevates it above so much schlock.
>>23331068>Also what rhailto did in the end is absurdly evil.
>>23331530>Some are hit or missI will now proceed to rank all of them based on my personal taste and how much I can remember two years laterGood - "The True Vintage of Erzuine Thale"EXCELLENT - "Grolion of Almery" (Could be cannon as far as I'm concerned)Good - "The Copsy Door"Shit - "Caulk the Witch-chaser" (Just weird and kinda boring)Shit - "Inescapable" (Ruins the mystique of the original Chun the Unavoidable)Alright - "Abrizonde"GREAT - "The Traditions of Karzh" (Lovely adventure with lots of action)Alright - "The Final Quest of the Wizard Sarnod"Alright - "The Green Bird"Shit - "The Last Golden Thread" (Ruins the mystique of the original Chun the Unavoidable)GREAT - "An Incident in Uskvosk" (Creative and feels much like the Worminger arc from Cugel)Shit - "Sylgarmo's Proclamation" (Turns Cugel into a generic bad evil character)Alright - "The Lamentably Comical Tragedy (or The Laughingly Tragic Comedy) of Lixal Laqavee"GREAT - "Guyal the Curator" (Very creative and reuses characters with grace)Alright - "The Good Magician"Alright - "The Return of the Fire Witch" (I'd rank it shit but the ending is quite unique and makes up for it)Alright - "The Collegeum of Mauge" Shit - "Evillo the Uncunning"EXCELLENT - "The Guiding Nose of Ulfänt Banderōz" (Dan Simmons doesn't miss)Shit - "Frogskin Cap"Good - "A Night at the Tarn House" (Reminded me why I'm not a big GRRM fan, but it's good regardless)Alright - "An Invocation of Incuriosity"For all the ones I've called great, you probably could tell me Vance wrote them and I'd believe you.
>>23332396I find myself largely agreeing, however>GrolionI also really like it, but it feels so derivative of the chapter where Cugel finds the Starbreak Spatterlight that I found myself mixing the two>InescapableI agree that Chun doesn't need a backstory, but the story works well on its own>The Final Quest of the Wizard SarnodIf it wasn't for Frogskin Cap this would be the worst of the bunch>The Last Golden ThreadI like it, but it reads like YA>The Guiding Nose of Ulfänt BanderōzCopying verbatim from my note on goodreads>Dan Simmons seems to have great admiration for Vance, but little interest in crafting a tale in the scope and style of Dying Earth. The Guiding Nose is double the length of most of the preceding stories but lacks qualitatively. With frustrating regularity there are words or turns of phrase that are very contemporary "Peasants of the world, unite" and "epoxy" particularly stick out. There are also several points where plot developments are presented in a manner that seems unintentionally ambiguous and lacking in narrative weight, giving the impression of a draft. I would have probably enjoyed it in a vacuum, but it makes for a pallid imitation. Given its length I'm recommending a skip.
>>23332396The anthology fell into the same trap as so much of fanfiction, particularly Star Wars - an incredible original universe with thousands of stories to be told yet almost every tale centers around characters already introduced by Vance. Oh look, it's Cugel again, only not as well written and completely different from the originals. Oh look, 2 or 3 girl power stories about that princess he bartered to get through the forest that are completely uncharacteristic and unbelievable even in fantasy. Oh look, the Golden Witch and Chun, twice. Oh look, Rhialto and the magicians again, how novel. Oh look, Iucounu again. IIRC only one story does not rely on characters created by Vance.To top that off with only a couple exceptions the stories show just how unique and original Vance was by being Fantasy sloppa. Mediocre writing is in abundance. Despite being an homage to Vance hardly any attempt is made to write in Vancian style, instead we get every author's usual prose with Oh Look characters plugged in.Dan Simmons' story was the worst of the lot - boring, predictable, cookie-cutter, cliche.It felt the most out of place of the whole collection, a Dan Simmons story with the slightest veneer of Dying Earth paint.Grolion was the best in the collection despite relying on Cugel. Hughes attempted, and succeeded, in imitating Vance's tone, ambiance, character and voice with a story that feels at home in the Dying Earth.In the end reading the anthology just made me wish I had read Vance instead.
>>23332958>IIRC only one story does not rely on characters created by Vance.You recall incorrectly.>CugelGrolionThe Green BirdSylgarmoThe CollegeumEvillo>AssortedThe Golden ThreadInescapableGuyalThe Good MagicianI might be forgetting a couple but the original ones are in the majority
>>23332267The Terry Pratchett Discworld books with Rincewind or the Unseen University, Earthsea novels by Ursula K. Le Guin, Magician by Raymond E. Feist
>>23332958Different anon but I had no issues with the characters reappearing, it’s the lack of trying to actually make the stories not just Vancing but especially that continuity (since Vance used different writing styles) which its distinctive turn of the phrase and brand of humor which spoofs fantasy while paying homage to Rabelais, Swift, Homer and others. The writers were too interested in their own style instead of trying to recreate Vance’s. It just breaks immersion.
>>23333085This is the bigger issue, that nothing feels like Vance. Only a couple authors even attempted it. Dan Simmons awful tale read like typical Dan Simmons, plebbitisms included>>23333051Perhaps I was wrong about there being only one, but the majority do rely on Vance's characters. Outside of the ones you mentioned Phandaal, Rogol Domedonfors, T'sais, Kandive among others. >b-but that was T'sais 2mmhmm
>>23333085It came off childish, kids inserting themselves in media they like with no attempt at a cohesive world or tonal fidelity, completely creatively bankrupt.>let's make a new Star Wars!>we'll set it on Tatooine>and there'll be a bunch of bounty hunters like Boba Fett>and super strong girl who don't need no man>and Bantha and Tusken Raiders and Hutts>and there's a big motorcycle chase where the bad guy crashes at the end>and there's Jedi and light sabers>and then the girl saves the guy>and the guy becomes the leader of an underground groupJust like every other cash grab out there, soulless slop riding the coattails of someone with an actual imagination and impulse. Deficiencies in the pattern indeed.
If you read the others dying earth books you will find almost everyone is absurdly evil by common human decency. Kindness is not a norm, just an impulse
>>23332565I'm surprised you disliked the Dan Simmons story so much. I remember liking it quite well. I recognized at least half the authors throughout the whole anthology, so perhaps it was because I was expecting a Dan Simmons story rather than a Vance story? I thought his take on the Diabloist was well thought out and the flying ships fit the Dying Earth aesthetic, at least for me, but I admit I've lost the finer details of the story through time. Grolion is definitely the best story of the whole lot and almost indistinguishable from Vance, but I was mostly reading to see authors I knew doing a pastiche of Vance, not an imitation. Strange that you mention Dan Simmons feeling out of the style of DE but make no mention to the masturbating wizard in GRRM's story.>>23332958It's not unreasonable to reuse characters, the issue arises when they reuse them poorly. Sylgarmo's Proclamation is an example of one that I hated. I suppose the author started with the potentially interesting intention to turn the tables and portray Cugel from the point of view of someone else. But despite being "morally dubious" in the original saga, Cugel never felt any more malicious than anyone else around him, and yet this one he's almost cartoonishly evil. Plus, the rest of the story reads like generic pulp adventure and presumes far too much from the original stories. The Collogeum of Mauge is the best example of Cugel just being there for no real reason. Somehow, Iucounu returned, and the story lacks any real substance. It's just faffing about with its denouement being simply, "Look, it's Cugel!" It's basically the epitome of what you're complaining about.While it would be nice if all the authors wrote completely original stories perfectly imitating Vance's style, at the end of the day, only Vance could write like Vance. All things considered, I liked the majority of the stories in the collection, but only Grolion of Almery, The Traditions of Karzh, and Guyal the Curator felt distinctly Vanceian to me. Some others had hints of it here and there, but sometimes it felt like the authors were attempting to invoke Vance merely through propinquity of his characters rather than their writing style.
