>>23330778
What did you attempt to talk to him about?

>>23330790

>politics
"tax is theft"

>some books I read
"reading is gay, listen to audiobooks about elon musk, etc. etc"

>going back to school to get my masters degree
"you don't need school to make money"

>travel
the extent of his desire to see the world is all inclusive resorts down south

of course im para phrasing, but really that was the depth of the conversation. Also, like any normal 4chan user obviously don't care about an occasional dark joke. I get the sense that he's become unironically really racist and homophobic.

EITHER, CUT TIES WITH THE GLOBALIC AVTOMATA IN YOUR AMBIT, OR OVERCOME THE DIFFERENCES, AND BEFRIEND THEM DESPITE THEIR FLAWS, BUT, EITHER WAY, STOP LAMENTING.

>>23330841
I think I'll probably cut ties with this friend specifically because he has become incredibly selfish and ignorant. Or maybe he was always like this I was just too selfish and ignorant too understand.

I've had similiar experiences with lots of old friends, just not to the same magnitude.

>>23330778
Yeah. That'll happen. But you have to come full circle. You cannot escape the pathos of distance you've developed in yourself by becoming introspective now.
What you can and should do, is integrate it so that you don't become elitist or alienated from others. If you're more honest with how you spend your time, nothings changed. You have higher quality thoughts now, but you're probably as much of a "mindless consumer" as your friends in practice, still. I'd bet you still eat yummy snacks and spend a lot of time fucking off.
It's a fine line between awareness and thinking you're better than other people, the latter isn't awareness, its an even worse delusion than the ones your friends operate under daily.
So now, get your thoughts out humbly. Write, and read. But do it in service of others and knock yourself down a peg. There's nothing inherently different about you, and to the degree you think that there is, you'll be a burden in this world, not a light.

It's normal. Just try not to build resentment towards others though, which can happen as the alienation starts to build up. It's a common trap I've noticed where one, rightly so, becomes disenchanted with mundane modern culture as they are intiated into higher culture. But end up, almost impercetibly, slowly becoming cloistered, angry, and lonely due to the disconnect with... well, everything modernity stands for.

Initiation into higher culture done rightly should bring about a profound happiness, which shouldn't be easily perturbed by alienation from modern society. Here's where you learn to love solitude, but without conceiving oneself as 'better' and others as 'worse', without longer for former times nor hoping for future times, enduring the 'blows' of this horri state of things with bright eyes.

I've often enjoyed the brief exultations from Tim Winter when he talks about the 'proof' of rightness to the way you are living, if, even when things are at their worst, personally or otherwise, the light in one's face never diminishes. Cloistered, angry folk who are critical of the modern world do not inspire faith in the faithless, and even inspire faithlessness in the faithful.

>>23330868
>>23330873
OP, if two people say nearly the same thing to you without pre planning, it means we are speaking from experience. Heed these words. If your friends are a drag to your development, then distancing might be a good thing; but totally ripping them out of your life and seeing yourself as "different" from them will lead to both misery and you becoming a weight on other people.
Heed these words.

>>23330778
The modern world makes it nearly impossible to make and maintain friendships. This is by design.

>>23330868
>>23330873

I completely agree, and am definitively aware of the risk of alienating oneself or seeing oneself as better than others, and don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself a snob. I like lays potato chips, bud light and Sylvester Stallone movies. I just no longer see "not being bored" as the supreme value in life.

I'm also not deluded enough to think that I'm somehow special or different or that this change couldn't happen to anyone. I'm sure that if I continue to read and think about these things, in a few years i'll consider what I wrote today ignorant and banal. It's a constant journey, and the fact that my reading list keeps getting longer is a testament to this.

If anything, over the last 3-4 years I have become, obviously, much more critical of society, but also much more empathetic and convicted that I have a responsibility to atleast try to improve it. I've started volunteering, and I've changed the way I operate at work, the types of clients I choose, and how I treat people at work quite drastically. I've seriously considered getting involved at a grass roots level in politics as well. Though I'm very cautious about aligning myself with any party considering how much my political thought has evolved.

I've also started writing. Short fiction, but also journalling and keeping track of my thoughts to keep myself disciplined and to not become some sort of hyper critical person that doesnt make the changes he wishes to see in the world, in himself.

Anyways, long rant. I think I need to be cautious about thinking that my evolution is somehow special. Isolation and disdain is not the way.

>>23330952
I think that's all a very good, optimal and healthy response, so good on you. Keep it up.
The only value contained in this perspective imo is to create something beautiful with it and to be of service to others. Sounds like you're doing that.

You’re gonna make it OP

>>23330778

As you change your circle of friends will change. It's completely normal. If you no loner have anythign in common with them, then you will stop hanging out with them and move on. The world is a big place. You will find your community.

yes reading is a solitary activity, which is why it's normal to frown upon readers

>>23330778
>I don't consider myself an intellectual by any means, or a snob. I just don't know how deal with that fact that:
>A. I used to be a selfish consumer.
How does this affect your current life?
>B. I can no longer identify with that way of life
How does this affect your life?
>C. Many of my old friends think engaging in anything beyond mindless consumption is gay
How does this affect your life?
>D. Literature has made me more critical of society, and alienated me from my old life
Just get a wife and/or small friend group who aren't braindead consumers, tiktok users or gossipers and live small or go off grid. It's easy.

>>23331085
>A. I used to be a selfish consumer.
>How does this affect your current life?
It doesn't really. Although I do feel as if I wasted alot of my time doing stupid, pointless things. I certainly enjoyed some of my youth, but alot of times I went to the bar, sat around and felt like I was supposed to be enoying these things but couldn't articulate why it felt empty. I'm 28 so I feel like from 18-25 I pissed alot of my life away. Though maybe its normal to have these phases and without it and I wouldn't have the perspective I have now.

>B. I can no longer identify with that way of life
>How does this affect your life?
>C. Many of my old friends think engaging in anything beyond mindless consumption is gay
>How does this affect your life?

Well, again I feel like I wasted alot of time, and it certainly isn't a comfortable realizaton that alot of your friends aren't really much more than drinking buddies, and that you don't have much in common with them anymore. It almost feels like your abandoning who you are, and are ungrateful of your old relationships. Im being a bit dramatic, but there is a sense of guilt, or feeling as if you might think you're better than people. (I completely reject the idea that anyone is an NPC, but still, there is a nagging concern of becoming a snob)

>>23330819
>tax is theft
True

>reading is gay, listen to audiobooks about elon musk, etc. etc
Based

>you don't need school to make money
True

>the extent of his desire to see the world is all inclusive resorts down south
Based. The only purpose of travelling nowadays is for hedonistic endeavours anyway. The sense of adventure has been lost for over 40 years now.

You sound like a pseud high in the clouds while he's just a honest lad who's down to earth.

>>23331297
There is nothing wrong about his lifestyle. Watch netflix, order fast food, go to an all inclusive resort. It's your life. I just don't want to live like that and it doesn't interest me at all.

>You sound like a pseud high in the clouds while he's just a honest lad who's down to earth.
I oscillate quite frequently from believing I'm just a good pseud and actually believing ive left the cave lol

I, too, have outgrown many of my friends. I just make new friends that are more in tune with where I'm at. No big deal.

>>23331236
>there is a sense of guilt, or feeling as if you might think you're better than people. (I completely reject the idea that anyone is an NPC, but still, there is a nagging concern of becoming a snob)

Chances are that if you are no longere interested in them, they are not interested in you either. You are now different. You don't see things the same way. You simply have to move on, because you are now a different person. That means your friends and your world is going to be different.

>>23330778
>I read a lot
>"pass times"
Doubt.

>>23331594
I’m phone posting with a French keyboard , I’ve made so many grammar and spelling errors. Forgive me pls

>>23330993
Why tho

>>23330778
I've experienced it both internally, and externally.
Coming to terms with how vapid and stupid I was, and how those habits are now an impediment to reading and comprehension.

I mean going to uni to finish a degree alienated me from my co-workers who all were a bunch of Gorgias'.

>>23330868
>>23330873
Damn, sometimes this board gives me hope. #Make/lit/GreatAgain.

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>>23330778
I tried to warn these doomed souls already, OP. If you want to be happy, do not continue to read serious literature. Only fools can read it and stay happy. Luckily for them, their inability to grasp its contents renders them immune from the toxin.

>>23332625
>#
This isn't Twitter...

>>23330819
>I get the sense that he's become unironically really racist and homophobic
Based. I don't care if he's a normie goycattle slave, you're fucking gay.

>>23332892
1.2.3.4.
That's four cliches in a single line post. You have no sentience.

>>23332941
>complaining that other people have no sentience while crying about hylic "bad -isms"
lol
LMFAO

>>23332892
Why is being racist and homophobic based?

Wow "tax is theft" so deep, are u like 14?

>>23330868
>>23330873
has anyone been visited by the idea that we should form small groups of people irl who share in our values and have been initiated into higher culture so that instead of growing bitter and lonely individuals like anon have somewhere they can feel like they belong

>>23333532
>why is the default setting a good thing?
>why don't you disable parts of your brain with magnets bro?
>why don't you get ENRICHED like everyone else?
>why not allow hordes of browns into your place of living?
>why not allow hordes of faggots to influence your children?

I had this experience with my 4 siblings. I personally believe that literature has helped me mature and grow as a person, while they’ve remained stuck in a sort of immaturity and selfishness.

I treat my loneliness and isolation by immersing myself in the ancient and medieval authors. I basically read their books and think of them as my professors or friends. I got the idea from Machiavelli.

>>23333655
>>23332446
>>23333724
Do you get a sense that you've wasted time?

I'm ashamed when I think of how many nights I spent drinking for hours on end in someones basement talking about completely frivolous things, only to be hungover the next day.

>>23333735
I’m afraid I don’t quite understand the question. Do you mean to ask if I’m afraid that I’ve wasted time by doing all of my reading or do you mean to ask if I’m afraid that I’ve wasted time by doing something other than reading?

>>23333743
I'm not sure if you're the right anon, but I get a sense of shame when I think of how much time i spent with people engaging in banal and frivolous conversations. I spent every weekend for years with my "friends" doing nothing more than drinking and talking in circles

Now, after having read and educated myself a bit more, I look back on those times and consider that time, completely and utterly wasted.

I'm just curious if you, or anyone, has a feeling that how they spent their time as a youth was wasted.

>>23333638
do you even have kids?

>>23334200
One on the way. Having kids shouldn't be a requirement for not wanting to be near this shit.

>>23333638
You need to get off the internet

>>23334496
Retarded nigger.

>>23333876

For me, it's mostly family stuff that is time wasted. I always chose my friends carefully and had good interactions and have fond memories of those sessions of drinking and talking. But with family, they are a lower class of people intellectually and all they talk about is their office politics or stupid shit like that. All of that time has been completely wasted but I did my best to avoid it, so I don't blame myself for anything. Now I regard family simply as "normies" to be occasionally observed and studied in a detached manner to keep a pulse on the society and trends.

>>23333633
You mean...get off the computer? Lol. Yes.
But you should do that locally with people who aren't on this board, and spread the light in yourself to those who need it; you also need it.
And then you come back here for reinforcement. That's all.

>>23334200
do you? because you sound like a troon or an egg carton.

>>23334772
What’s a troon/egg ?

>>23333724
Based

>>23330952
What even are the "critical" insights you've come to? Did you just read a bunch of commie texts or something? I respect the newfound motivation you have but you're acting as if you've come to some deep truth no one else has pondered. I can guarantee they have, and there are groups or campaigns directly pursuing whatever you now find important. You're on the internet, it would take you two minutes to find it.

>>23334717
Good lord you faggots are true fucking losers lmao. Crying that you're not born into a family of purebred academics. Hey listen faggot - most people aren't. Love your family.

You guys are all very embarrassing and obviously masking deeper personal issues with this self-flattering screed. I can guarantee most of you are not half as thoughtful as you think you are. Life will humble you all.

>>23334874
I didn’t come to any “critical” thoughts but I am much more critical of society. Critical in a positive and negative sense.

And yea no shit I don’t think I’m special. Lots of groups are doing the things I think are important, hence why I started volunteering.

Im just not content to wait for the next series of Netflix to drop or the new iPhone. Like I said , being entertained is not what I consider my goal in life.

>>23334790
on what

>>23334899

But what does your critical focus actually mean in terms of practicality? Outside of volunteering? What do you expect your "normie" friends to agree with you on or discuss?

>>23334887
The pathos of distance is intrinsic to philosophy, anon. So many comics and satiric authors portrayed philosophers as downright bizarre - see Lucian. Plato talks about the clumsiness of the philosopher who is laughed at by maidens. There's a complete break with the customs and habits of normal folk among Platonists, Epicureans, Stoics, Cynics - all of them. They feel a stranger in the world and the world sees them a stranger.

And this conflict is, in fact, a hot topic of philosophy (should we, as the Cynics say, make a total break from societal customs, or like the Platonists and Stoics, live everyday lives in a 'philosophical' way?) It's strange that you would find this as seemingly intrinsically masking deep personal issues.

This is all felt pretty quickly as soon as you start reflecting. Obviously you will be humbled too - dunning-krueger effect and all that - but the pathos of distance is real.

>>23333735
yes and no. parts of me is thinks this, but parts of me thinks the waste was necessary.
I mean I am drinking right now, while reading and writing.

>>23334912
Not being content with simply consuming (media, products, alcohol), more curiosity/openness toward the world. Critical of the status quo, feeling more empathetic with people i couldn’t initially relate to, valuing debate/art/ideas more than I had in the past

>>23335017
>parts of me thinks the waste was necessary
I agree. Without knowing how vapid it can feel, I wouldn't value the difference. If i was a bookish teenager/young adult, maybe i'd look back at those years and long for the experience of partying.

>>23330873
My problem is how not to be disgusted with modern society, how not to view it with contempt? I love the beautiful things of old, and I feel happy and joyful when reading a great work by Dickens for instance, or listening to something by Beethoven, but when I look at the products of modern society I see very little that is redeemable about it. I don't actively feel much hate for anything but the most egregious parts of it, like rap, but it's hard to not look at all the emptiness and vapidity of modern society and feel that it's of no worth at all.

>>23330778
This is a disingenuous shill thread meant to promote reading for some reason. Literally:
>stop caring about what's going on in the world and go read a book!
Honestly kill yourself man.

>>23335104
if anything its
>reading books makes you care much more about society and humanity

>>23335112
while simultaneously making you feel alienated from certain people within it

>>23330819
he's sounds like your average brainlet /pol/tard desu, probably not a huge loss

>>23334738
>>23333633
>imagine trying to form a group irl only for it to inevitably turn into thought policing over wokeism after it reaches a pretty small critical mass

>>23330873
>But end up, almost impercetibly, slowly becoming cloistered, angry, and lonely due to the disconnect with... well, everything modernity stands for.
I was like this for a year, but I've come to terms with it now. I still hate almost everything about my surroundings, but it's a healthy hate.

>>23330778
Cultivate contentment with companionlessness and/or get friends of like mind and resolve/concentration. /thread

>>23333876
I think that’s part of a pseud phase if you want me to be completely honest with you. If you keep up this in interest literature, that will almost certainly pass. You will start to appreciate the mundane and trivial moments more, if anything.

>>23334887
They’re just relatively young and falling into the literary rabbit hole for the first time. That’s all.

>>23330819
>read a bunch of classic literature
>become a generic libtard who whines about racism and homphobia
vs
>listen to Elon Musk audiobooks on 3x speed
>become based
Uhh /lit/kweens?

>>23330778
>I don't consider myself an intellectual by any means, or a snob.
Then I suggest you reconsider this analysis - you come off like an insufferable fucking fag.

I am a pretentious dilettante but my problem is that I just cannot connect with other people
People like sports, I have no interest in sports
People like film, I like film too, but for the majority of people I talk to the pinnacle of their cinematic experience is going to see the latest blockbuster, like Dune, Barbie or Oppenheimer
When Dune came out I was pretty happy because I was excited to see it and I enjoyed it a lot but in general I am interested in films that came out in the past and I enjoy watching a director's entire filmography
People like video games but I don't play video games anymore and anyway, when I did it only ever felt like a very superficial thing to talk about
I think I'm undiagnosed autistic

>>23335121
What are you normie liberals doing on 4chan?


>>23330819
>politics
>"tax is theft"
Well that's true but did he have any opinions about the election?

>some books I read
>"reading is gay, listen to audiobooks about elon musk, etc. etc"
You should've told him that Elon Musk is a reader.

>going back to school to get my masters degree
>"you don't need school to make money"
Don't be a fucking idiot.

>travel
>the extent of his desire to see the world is all inclusive resorts down south
Those are good but you should've told him that Italy is nicer.


>Also, like any normal 4chan user obviously don't care about an occasional dark joke. I get the sense that he's become unironically really racist and homophobic.
Well that sucks. Although people of other countries are also racist and stick to their own and cam be a pain in the ass. As far as gay men - it's about 80% of them that are narcissistic retards - and a minority actually have a brain.

>>23330778
Well anon, you are certainly not alone in your feelings. Forums like this are helpful for those who have autistic leanings-- ie those who do not fully accept the world as it is, and are looking for others who feel the same. I am fortunate in that, as a Christian, I have found several other Christians who also have a deep desire to learn. This is actually not as uncommon amongst Christians as the atheists would like to portray. If one understands history at all, this is quite clear. All that to say, find a small group of maybe two other men, start a book club. Meet sparingly at first, ensuring that they are committed, and, if the occasion arises, slowly start to meet more and more as the friendship grows.

>>23330778
Read Schlegel & Fichte, then Hegel on Irony.

You could turn them to your way of of doing things, but that would require slow and steady tactfulness. If you tire of your own company, something else is required.

If you can’t share a laugh and a drink with the Everyman of your society, what good is your snivelling faggy philosophy anyway? Reading is supposed to connect you to life not force you into a smaller box.

>>23335103
Are you genuinely stupid? What kind of London do you think Dickens was writing about?

>>23335371
We live in something approaching a tyranny. There is no everyman.

>>23335397
Go outside

>>23335412
People are clicky and can't think because they;'re jot allowed to. Everybody is scared of god knows what.

To find a free man in today's world is almost impossible.

>>23335419
You're looking for 'clique', you fucking pseud.

>>23335539
Cliquey didn't look right.

>>23335350
I'm catholic so I never understood the stereotype of christians being against intellectuals. Every priest I know has a Phd or some advanced philosphy/theology degrees.

>>23335616
>Every priest I know has a Phd or some advanced philosphy/theology degrees.
That's like saying bluehairs are intellectuals because they can obtain PhDs in lesbian dance theory.

>>23335616
>>23335638
Both have PhDs in child anatomy.

>>23335616
Yes, that is unsurprising. As I stated earlier, if you look back at history, many schools and universities were established by religious peoples. The study of the Bible naturally lent to the study of sciences, history, anatomy, biology-- anything God created. Many ancient scholars were of the Christian/Catholic faith. Only in recent times has religion been (wrongly) considered anti-learning.

>>23335638
Catholics wrote the summa theologia. I think they can claim the label of intellectuals

>>23335739
>>23335748
Catholics are backwards people that nonetheless find a way to be successful - but always at a tremendous cost. Think Joe Biden.

>>23335638
nta but our pastor was an engineer before dropping all that and joining seminary.

>>23335718
lmao gottem

>>23335748
You really think there's no difference between the second sons of the aristocracy who would become clergy in the middle ages and people in the modern world who decide they want to be priests of a religion nobody takes seriously anymore outside of Nigeria and the Philippines?

>>23330873
Yes, it is no use to rage against the masses who are by nature passive and reflective. As the Confucians might put it, once a junzi (a virtuous man) perfects his virtue, the people will spontaneously reorient their ways too. Here is a brilliant passage from the Great Learning:

The ancients who wished to illustrate illustrious virtue throughout the kingdom, first ordered well their own states. Wishing to order well their states, they first regulated their families. Wishing to regulate their families, they first cultivated their persons. Wishing to cultivate their persons, they first rectified their hearts. Wishing to rectify their hearts, they first sought to be sincere in their thoughts. Wishing to be sincere in their thoughts, they first extended to the utmost their knowledge. Such extension of knowledge lay in the investigation of things. Things being investigated, knowledge became complete. Their knowledge being complete, their thoughts were sincere. Their thoughts being sincere, their hearts were then rectified. Their hearts being rectified, their persons were cultivated. Their persons being cultivated, their families were regulated. Their families being regulated, their states were rightly governed. Their states being rightly governed, the whole kingdom was made tranquil and happy. From the Son of Heaven down to the mass of the people, all must consider the cultivation of the person the root of everything besides. It cannot be, when the root is neglected, that what should spring from it will be well ordered. It never has been the case that what was of great importance has been slightly cared for, and, at the same time, that what was of slight importance has been greatly cared for.

>>23330819
Anyone who has to face the real world everyday for the past ten years and you’re mad he’s “ironically racist and homophobic all of the sudden”? You have a lot to learn by experience and not by burying your head in the sand.

>>23333724
I actually like that.

>>23336280
I've had to face the world every day for the past ten years. That argument makes no sense

>>23330819
>I get the sense that he's become unironically really racist and homophobic.
Heaven forbid!
You sound like an absolute faggot. Your friend probably worked all day and was just trying to have a relaxing evening with his buddy but you couldn't help sperging in your head because you weren't 'discussing' philosophy like the pseud you are. Kys.

>>23336520
>Heaven forbid!
I mean...yea

>>23336538
What's wrong with being racist and homophobic?

Why are some so triggered by nofap? Its like some of u are about to cry, is it hard to not touch ur dick?

>>23330778
>>23330819
Oh, I know this feeling! It's all because you don't have same hobbies, and neither of you care enough about each other to actually find some sort of common hobby.So instead of talking about something he finds interesting, or trying to find out what it is, you are trying to shovel down your interest down his throat. Happens to me all the time.

>>23330819
i was about to criticize you, but if this guy listens to elon audiobooks you're right to disregard him
>>23330841
that's right, you tell him cumgenius

Hello, OP! I am literally you, and you are literally me.

I'm 30 years old and have been going through the exact same situation as you, particularly regarding "wasting" my youth doing things that now seem like a waste of time and with people I no longer feel connected to.

Along with some excellent insights on this topic, both from others and from yourself, I want to share a few things that are working for me in my journey.

I've been going to psychoanalysis for 2 years now. I've noticed that at some point during my childhood or adolescence, I disconnected from myself. I lost touch with my own desires and began following others' wishes as a way to fit into social groups (mainly to succeed with women). As a result, I started consuming entertainment, engaging in hobbies, and going to places that weren't necessarily my choice or preference.

My journey now focuses on reconnecting with my own desires (many use the term "inner child" or something similar). I've started taking piano and swimming lessons, activities I used to do in my childhood but lost touch with over time.
I've also become a more "conscious" consumer. I don't have a problem with consuming Netflix or games, as you mentioned, but now I always critically analyze what I want first. I watch and play things that appeal to me, just for me, without the need to fit into a group or follow the influence of peers, critics, comments, or the internet. A more "mindful" consumption, if you will. And I try to apply this to everything.
Overall, I've ended up consuming much more classic content, from earlier times, and I try to distance myself from the current mainstream culture.

The essence of what I want to say is: you need to connect with yourself first, so you can have genuine connection with others after.

“Above all, do not lie to yourself. A man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point where he does not discern any truth either in himself or anywhere around him, and thus falls into disrespect towards himself and others. Not respecting anyone, he ceases to love, and having no love, he gives himself up to passions and coarse pleasures in order to occupy and amuse himself, and in his vices reaches complete beastiality, and it all comes from lying continually to others and himself. A man who lies to himself is often the first to take offense. It sometimes feels very good to take offense, doesn't it? And surely he knows that no one has offended him, and that he himself has invented the offense and told lies just for the beauty of it, that he has exaggerated for the sake of effect, that he has picked up on a word and made a mountain out of a pea--he knows all of that, and still he is the first to take offense, he likes feeling offended, it gives him great pleasure, and thus he reaches the point of real hostility...”

― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

>>23330778

The most important question is: what books did you read, OP?

>>23335126
I'm not talking about "forming a group." Nobody here can handle petty social dynamics and office politicking type of shit. You'll kill yourself over something like that. But that's not "wokeism after it reaches a pretty small critical mass," its a personal problem strictly relegated to our "type." Most people function in these groups just fine, therefore, we are the problem, not them.
But problem isn't really the right word, it just doesn't align with how we are.
What I had meant is just go out and do something good. Volunteer or something, help the people around you, its good for the soul. As for discussing ideas, spaces like this are one of the only refuges. The best you can hope for irl is one or two friends who are also neurodivergent.

>>23336862
I am the anon who proposed forming groups irl
I mean that I know a couple of people in real life who have initiated themselves into higher culture slowly over time and I have seen in them the same distance form that I feel exists between me and most of the people I come across in daily life
I have to distinguish that I don't mean we should separate ourselves from others, I think the first tenet of such a gathering would be to ward against undue arrogance by not allowing ourselves to view others with disdain or generally in a negative way, they are our fellow men and deserve the same respect in our communication with them
this doesn't mean we should accept the idea that we are equal in EVERY way - the world has historically been shaped and moved by a minority and that minority has (especially in recent centuries) differed in thought literally - the structures and concepts they thought in and in which ideally we can think in are by necessity more complex and "higher" than those of the masses - they don't need to know what a kondratiev wave is or how exactly the class struggled in France in 1848-1850 played a massive role in shaping the following decades which still reverberate today with their consequences
if we stop larping as intellectuals we will realize that this knowledge and initiation into higher culture goes much further than ego-soothing, escapism and faux-elitism - it is also a burden, and taking up that burden allows us to not only understand the world around us better but to begin to think on how we can shape it into something else, something better
I was proposing groups irl in which I would NOT like to see self-absorbed shut-ins who are there to play aristocrat but people who understand that if they want to build a new aristocracy it WILL be the most difficult venture of their lives and it WILL require great sacrifice
but if it is in the name of a better world, then it will be worth it
I am envisioning these groups to shape newcomers and give them meaning and purpose by integrating them into the existing world but also elevating them above it so that they may see further and know more and eventually enact change others don't even see is possible

>>23330778
>Cabral
Mi negro.

>>23330778
I think this is a temporary effect and it will wear off in time.

On a different note, it's interesting how a lot of people mention livestyle changes during the pandemic. My life has not chaged at all during or after the pandemic, except that my health is now irreparably fucked after the vaccine.

>>23337016
These groups already exist anon -- they are called religions.

>>23330778
I bet youre fun at parties

>>23330819
>the extent of his desire to see the world is all inclusive resorts down south
"seeing the world" doesn't confer much at all. You end up not knowing what you're looking at, touching a minuscule part of the whole. Especially when you have a vast body of knowledge about any spot on earth. If you go somewhere without already knowing it and simply to complete the knowledge via experience, you're indeed being a hedonistic pseud. You don't know shit about some SEA country just because you crawled its streets for a weekend, don't kid yourself. You're out for scout badges, "I wuz in Thailand (+5 worldliness points)."

>>23337079
>"seeing the world" doesn't confer much at all
maybe not, but the desire to do so is certainly a way to gauge someones overall curiosity about the world and humanity.

Is there some intrinsic value in travelling? Probably not. But curious people typically want to see whats out there. Now, if you go to Thailand to be surrounded by other westerners that only speak your language and share you're view points, then I imagine that experience will be less fruitful, culturally and intellectually. (Or, if you go to Thailand with no particular interest in Thailand)

And again, as I said earlier. There is nothing wrong with the pleasure of a funny movie, a new fancy watch, or drinking until you fall down at an all inclusive resort in SEA. But if pleasure and entertainment is the supreme good that you seek in life, I doubt i'll have much in common with you. 5 years ago, that might not have been the case.

Of course, none of these viewpoints are superior or inferior. Wanting to explore ideas or wanting to simply be entertained are equally valid ways of living your life. My point is the the more I read and explore artisticlly and intellectually, the less i'm satisfied with the other way of life. In my case, it seems that the result is that means i've alienated myself from some of my old friends as we no longer share the same interests.

>>23337051
>he took it

>>23330778
I'm in the same boat. Most of my friends are like that. All drinking, one of em is really fat and doesn't want to change his ways.

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It's as liberating as it is isolating. Even just scratching the surface of any material that falls under 'classical education' will put you miles ahead of your peers in terms of thinking independently.

The more you read the more you realize most people's opinions are not their own. They'll trivialize complex subjects using someone else's words and deceive themselves (and others) into believing they are knowledgeable. I find myself questioning all of my own beliefs and my life has improved immeasurably because of it. Being able to determine what you do not know or understand is the first step to enlightment and, subsequently, peace of mind.

Politics is my barometer for quickly estimating someone's conversational compatibility. Their political learning is irrelevant -- is their initial talking point recycled vomit from Fox News or reddit? You can't converse with someone like this because they don't know why they say these things. Unfortunately this is 90% of the population -- even the highly intelligent fall victim to these traps.

Thanks for reading my shitty, pompous exposition.

>>23337723
Well written. The ability to critique and challenge one’s own thoughts seems somehow to be incredibly rare.

>>23337723
>thinking independently.

The thing is that thinking independently is by its nature anti-social behavior. A well-adjusted, socialized person thinks and feels the same way as everybody else, which is whatever the elites decide they should think or feel.

>>23337016
how would you even go about starting one of these groups? do you have money to pay for a club? at your house?

>>23335267
>what are you x doing on 4chan
not your personal echo chamber faggot

>>23334874
I really like how the /pol/ caveman are wandering around this thread asking themselves and others how is it possible that reading would make you want to contribute to society and help people

>>23330868
B00kmark

>>23333633
Yeah, except that the groups should be large, rather than small. And we should actively try to manipulate society to make it better conform to our ideals.

>>23339074
why would you want to make society conform to your ideals? isn't it best to let type 1 people (the masses) live out their lives in whatever manner they choose while you live out yours surrounded by people who share your ideals without coercion? you might call it a society within a society but aristocratic classes have always existed and they can live perfectly well embedded in the masses without needing to be swayed or bothered by them

>>23339088
I didn't mean that other people should behave or think like us. I meant that everything they do should, inadvertently to them, serve our ends. As far as they are aware they would be living their lives in "whatever manner they choose".

>>23339088
> isn't it best to let type 1 people (the masses) live out their lives in whatever manner they choose

I guess, but if you have any ideals, morals, and are able to think and speak clearly, I think there is a responsibility to be active in societal conversations.

If writers (and good readers), stop being critical of the world, then that vacuum will be filled with other people who use their influence for their own motivations.

Maybe im coming across as preachy, but, as an example, I find it pretty morally abhorrent that, atleast in the west, we're letting people with mental illness get euthanized. That's letting people live their lives in whatever manner they choose, but i'd prefer have an influence that makes those types of decisions unattractive. Being supremely individualistic is I guess great liberal philosophy, but I don't think humans are meant to live like that. Doesn't Dante describe hell when we completely cave in on ourselves and become consumed only with ourselves? Shouldn't a healthy masculinity mean taking care of yourself, your family, and your community?

>>23336624
Why are you concerned with someone else touching themselves? That's really weird.

>>23330778
Make friends with people who read.

>>23340139
I failed to convey that I don't mean "leave them to rot" I take it for granted we will use whatever understanding and influence we have to move the world to a better place, I meant that this doesn't necessarily look the same for type 1 and type 2 people so the actions and end goals will be different depending on who you are aiming to help (and, again, obviously some things overlap and benefit both)
I agree that individualism is a wrong turn we took at the end of the 18th century but it was necessary in order for humanity as a whole to learn the lessons that can be learned going down that path
now it's time to make another turn and use what was learned to structure the world to come in new ways and what I'm suggesting is that the aristocratic class should be born anew, having incorporated the lessons - this time around it should be a class that isn't inherited by default and the social mobility that democracy and capitalism allows should provide for the mechanisms through which people can move in/out of the class (this is going to be more detailed and nuanced than I'm presenting it here but for the purposes of 4chan I think this is fine)
I genuinely believe a new aristocracy can be formed along with all its benefits AND its burdens and obligations to society
what's missing is a new theoretical distinction of the class so that the movement can begin and I'm trying to work on that
I realize this sounds retarded and there are many holes in the idea as I present it here but I have been thinking about this for years and have directed a lot of my reading and study toward the goal of figuring it out

this could just as easily happened had you gotten super into deep sea fishing/antiquing, it's not a question of intellectualism, like you're phrasing it.

that banality you experienced isn't because hes a consumer, it's because you realized you don't actually like this person, or his interests.

good for you and all, but at least he can talk to people.

this is just first year at college syndrome.

>>23340353
>at least he can talk to people.
repeating what you bought and want to buy isn't really a great conversation.

>>23334874
he's not saying that at all you nincompoop

>>23340360
>>23340353
snarky fags
maybe check out leddit?

bump, there's some interesting conversation happening here

>>23340360
No, it is not. It is what happens when you attain personal growth and depth, and have something that drives you aside from money and having a gf.

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>>23330778
Congratulations, you're ascending. Just don't lose contact with the beauty of human interactions!

>>23339005
Ironic

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GO BACK TO FORMING COMMUNITIES IN PLACES YOU LIVE, NOT ON THE INTERNET. BACK TO ZINES, PHYSICAL MEDIA AND PRINT, AS WELL AS FORMING AN ACTUAL PLACE OF CULTURE, EVEN IF IT IS FIVE FOLKS FROM 4CHAN TALKING ABOUT THE WESTERN CANON!

>>23342189
The Internet has been a blessing and a curse.

>>23342328
PEOPLE NEED TO FORM COMMUNITIES IN REAL PLACES!!!

>>23342375
Yes, it definitely does one good. I think the harm it's done to physical community-forming is one of the biggest ways in which the Internet has been a curse.

>>23342387
Indeed, which is ironic given how it opened up communication and made it real easy to do such things. Reading about various music scenes or counter-cultures in general, I do lament the abscense of the physical and the transition to digital. I think it is vital for such things to go back, since physical spaces and real human faces in front of you are much healthier and provide the human aspect that is an integral part of the experience.

>>23342406
You can still socialize with people near you, at least.

>>23342428
Sure, but internet fragmented the local scenes to a severe degree, made people more isolated instead of bringing eople closer.

>>23342496
I wonder if I should start a movement of Internet-refusers, but the trouble is it's kind of needed for modern life these days, and "only email and other things necessary for life" is much less Schelling-pointy than "no Internet, period". (And also how would you spread the word to get people to join you?)

>>23342523
Do not reject internet as it can be used as a tool and an asset, but gather people, even if there is only 4 or 5 of you. That's a start!

>>23342533
I certainly have IRL friends, I'm not lacking for that part. But sometimes I wonder if I'm capable of using the Internet responsibly, especially with ADHD.

I like reading books and don't have a problem getting along with people who aren't into reading books. My favorite book, the Bible, is a very popular subject down here.

Am also a football fan, but am not into mindless consumption or anything like that. Everyone has a unique perspective and something to teach you if you are willing to learn. Wisdom, life experiences, stories to tell.

It sounds like you are just alienating yourself. An intellectual is someone who places a high value on learning, knowledge, and things regarding intellect. A friend is someone that you care about and care about understanding, regardless of all this.

>>23330778
same. I got in a huge fight with my group chat recently because when they were literally complaining about not having purpose in life and didn't see a reason to live I suggested they read philosophy. they all agreed that Philosophy is dumb and pointless with one even saying "I took a class on religion at college so I'm done with all that now".
this was a group of 27 yr old men who all have degrees in STEM including one with a PhD. all 5 of them were adamant that philosophy was dumb and seemed to think that some sort of hippie Terrance McKenna BS was what made up most of philosophy.

it was one of the most infuriating conversations I've ever had and I don't think I'll talk to them ever again, these are people I've known for over a decade

>>23342536
Talking about forming a community regarding arts and cultural activities, not about finding friends. I have those too.

>>23342636
STEMlets are cretins.

>>23342643
I was a poetry bash recently and got some contacts there, that seems like a start.

>>23342643
anyone care to start outlining what that community might look like?
I'm talking criteria from the ground up and no half-assed ideas either like >>23342673 poetry bashes
if we come up with good ideas I'll assemble them into a file as rough guidelines for others to use across the world and make more of these communities

>>23342736
What's wrong with poetry bashes? It was fun, they handed out noisemakers and paper airplanes with poems printed on them.

>>23342375
I already have a real community in real life. Not an artificial internet invention, but a community of friends and neighbors in my town that I get along with and help to uplift. It is a heavily Christian community, but we have a synagogue and a mosque as well and live in peace with each other.

>>23342740
nothing is wrong with them, they are not what the anons and me mean when we say "forming a community"
it has to be something more comprehensive, broader than just poetry, rooted in tradition but without denying the tools of the present and accounting for what the future might bring as best as it can
I'd say one of the things that must be done is to define for the purposes of this community what "initiation into higher culture" means in terms of what qualities people are seeking to develop, what knowledge they seek and most importantly how they seek to utilize it to change the world because the one thing I don't want such a community to become is a hobby club for people who've read Dosto and Eliot and come to the meetings to feel superior to the masses
no, here we must gather with the intent of growing as people and each as a resource for the world, seeking to change first ourselves, the lives of our (future) families and see how far we can extend our influence from there

>>23330778
Perhaps it is time to consider making new friends or coming to terms with finding peace in your own company.

>>23330819
Your friend is probably a midwit but you sound like an insufferable leftist which is much, much worse.

>>23338472
I would argue that there are varying tiers of socialization. A bit reductive, but at the higher rungs of society it's almost excepted to exercise anti-social behavior. Leadership roles are inherently anti-social -- You must act independently and, often times, contrary to the consensus of the crowd. Where as the everyman is expected to adhere to the zeitgeist, respect his peers, and exude modesty.

I'm not advocating that either is inherently right or wrong but that each one has a purpose depending on one's circumstances.

>>23342636
They will probably have a better time without you.

>>23342673
>>23342736
>>23342750
You really need to go back.

>>23342836
Why?

>>23342160
you haven't attained anything.
you (probably only partially) read some books, one time through, and now you're hot shit suddenly.

it's nice that you found a new interest, it's a shame you're too dumb to do more than beat people over the head with it, you ape.

>>23342736
Give me a few hours, just came home from work.

>>23342883
no rush, I'm outlining some things on my own and I'll make a separate thread and link it here so we can continue this properly

I love how no one gives a fuck about what "" classics"" OP ""read""
it's almost like this is midwit LARP.

it's also sad and revealing that you would give up your friends before giving up 4chan.

you've clearly learned fuck all.

>>23330778
why do you think that reading has been subverted by retarded shit

>>23342893
Those who understand don't need to ask. Those who don't understand aren't going to ask.

>>23342968
you tried.

>>23342883
>>23342740
it's up >>23343233

bump

Most people ITT are missing the point. It's not a matter of "He has X hobbies and I have Y hobbies". Do you know what sort of person the average book reader is? They're women, or over-educated men working white collar jobs or academics writing banal papers on some minute detail of some 20th century Marxist. He is interested in the classics. Do you know what classics people have in common? They're out of season.

Machiavelli and Montaigne spent enormous amounts of time alone reading Roman literature, and both were misanthropes. Do you know that if you enjoy Montaigne, you are likely more similar to him than he was to his own countrymen of 16th century France? If this sounds egotistic, then perhaps it is. The origin of Western thought lies in nothing other than the Delphic maxim to know thyself. The culmination of Eastern spirituality is ego erasure while ours is ego absolution. If you're arrived at the classics, you should realize that your old lifestyle is over.

>>23343181
Wow you really got me

>>23342893
He's clearly a fucking pseud redditor. No need to ask. He also outlined how fucking retarded he is several times ITT. He said it was a problem that his friend is racist and homophobic, lmfao. Fucking loser.

>>23334951
> Plato talks about the clumsiness of the philosopher who is laughed at by maidens.

Where?

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>>23330778
I go through cycles where for a few years I’m like that, and then for a few years I’m like your philistine friend.

Living the starving artist life and then realizing that I need to be in the here and now, worrying about material things, and then reverting back to le stoic intellectual once material things are taken care of. So don’t judge your friend, you may end up like him for whatever reason

>>23343627
Iy is YOU who missed the point of reading the classics and such advice in general. The point is to read those great works which shaped their culture at the time and which still resonate with us in the present. To learn from the greats and to read those works that challenge you and change you in the process, and to continue where they left off or to simply build on their wisdom by incorporating it into how you view lofe and to enter dialogue with the best of minds that lived and wrote once upon a time. You are also correct to point out that you should read to better understand YOURSELF, but I fail to see how you can get antiquated in the process since you are certainly going to try to view them in the light of the times you are in, you are not going to regress and adopt a mind from times that have passed, that would be stagnation and a mere regression, which runs contrary to such pursuits.
And Machiavelli is not a misanthrope, where did you get that from? Certainly not from Il Principe.

>>23330778
>frases-facundo-cabral
yeah, I bet you read a lot

>>23344175
Go back to /pol/, retard.

>>23345574
>muh bogeyman
You don't have to browse that shithole to be racist, and you don't belong here, reddit nigger. Fuck off.

>>23330778
Have you tried watching classic cinema???

Not OP, but in a very similar situation. 25 y/o and have felt this way for at least 3+ years. The stuff I consume (music, art, literature, forums, movies etc.) have all made me wary of the current state of the world and cynical + has alienated me from 90% of the people around me, except 3-4 friends.

Feels like most of the people are interested in the mask, never the "soul", constantly consuming and giving in to the fear created by advertisements, our virtual life named Instagram and other modern diseases. Not trying to sound edgy or anything, but I literally use most of my energy to fake social interactions with people that only care about being "seen"..

Has it always been this way?
Read some really helpful and insightful comments here, thanks.

>>23337108
>Of course, none of these viewpoints are superior or inferior
Faggot, why did you create this thread then? You are obviously assigning them a value and holding your own to be preferable.

>>23343627
This is one of the gayest things I've ever read

>>23345763
>Has it always been this way?
Yes. Thoughtful men have always had a hard time in the world because of this dynamic. You can see it reflected in literature from any era, in any place.
Thoughtful people tend to have one of three responses, or a combination of them: they become predators and use this awareness to prey upon the unaware, exacerbating their tendencies, they stay neutral and live a life focused on survival and the enjoyment of their hobbies while realizing everyone else is blind as fucking bats, or they become childish optimists. The last type tend to become artists, or religious or something.
But yes it's always been like this. Welcome to Hell.

>>23330873
I had a girlfriend who made me more like this for maybe a year and a half. now i'm cloistered like a motherfucker as you say

>>23345855
Ha. I am between type 2 and 3, far from an optimist but recently started trying to see the "good" but can't really "enjoy my hobbies" because of the realization that most are blind as bats. How can I find a good balance? I get fucking angry that everyone is "blind".

i'm having the opposite problem of OP. After trying to read more, (doing roughly a book a week) I got about half way through a hefty biography of George Washington, and then have stopped reading completely. I think this is related to stress in my life, but I can only get myself to play phone games, and can only get through a page of reading before becoming incredibly antsy and bored. how do i get back into reading? i also don't want to give up on the biography that i was reading, so would prefer not to receive advice like start reading a different book.