Is there anything more clearly indicative that the X-Men franchise is now a villain franchise than their insistence that replacement through cloning is "resurrection"? Treating individuals as disposable as long as you can create a replacement used to be explicitly the area of villains in the MU (the Jackal, Arnim Zola, Mister Sinister) and always treated as a bad thing. Metaphysics are real in the MU, the soul exists, so it's pointless trying to argue otherwise even if you're an atheist writer or fan. >there's a metaphysical elementThere isn't and two major plots points are entirely dependent on there not being any spiritual resurrection. Beast is restored from an earlier logged backup of memories and X-23 is replaced despite not being dead, leading to the Talon/Laura situation.>okay but clones have souls tooYes they have their OWN souls. That's been the case forever and is still the case in titles running right now with characters like Ben Reilly and Madelyne Pryor. All the characters "resurrected" by Krakoa and the Five are new people just as Ben and Maddie are new people from Peter and Jean.This is their villain arc, they have embraced the belief that people are expendable and deserve no individual dignity as long as you can crank out another one like sinister did for years with the Marauders. This story beat should have been stopped at the ideas stage. It can work in an AU or in a future timeline or something where you can just say that metaphysics don't exist and this is the closest equivalent you can get to bringing someone back. But not in 616. The fact that characters like Pixie who killed themselves to get resurrected are now having their soul tortured for eternity in some netherworld is pretty darkly hilarious. And no fucking comments about durr hurr there is no soul we're talking about the fantasy universe of the Marvel Universe here. This isn't some real-world ethics discussion.
>>143331747Krakoa is over, anon.
>>143331747Dude.It's cloning, they didn't beat death. We all agree.The point is they were not human in every sense, even perspective. Krakoa is where the X-men stopped being human beings.
>>143331747Anon souls not being real wouldn't make cloning any more of a "replacement" of a person. A person is still made up of a brain with unique thoughts and experiences. If anything the existence of a soul is the only way to make clone resurrection work, because the soul can supernaturally retain all the elements of a person which is not possibly biologically. In a strictly material world, it's one person with one brain, when that brain is destroyed the person ceases to exist. In the same way a person dies if they get dematerialized and then rematerialized. In order for the "self" to continue to exist outside the body a soul is required.
>>143331770Exactly. Krakoa is where the X-men stopped being human and gave up any pretense of heroism.
>>143331826Krakoa ressurection isn't straight cloning. They perfectly replicate a body including cosmetic alterations.The new Emma doesn't come out with her DNA-coded hair color or nose, she comes out as the previous one, plastic surgery and all. Clone Cap comes out with the super-soldier alterations which also aren't genetic. Rachel comes out with her tattoos. And most damningly,Wolverine and Laura come out with full adamantium skeletons.I'm not saying that it's "true" resurrection but this is so far past cloning at this point I dunno why they even use the world "clone". Just say "we magic up a body"
>>143331747Aren't Cap, Black Widow and Iron Man technically some variant of clone/copy/recreated version of the original as well?It's not just an X Men problem,Marvel has kinda over relied on "we'll break it and bring back an earlier copy" as the solution to return to the status quo for a while now
>>143331893Iron Man, War Machine and Black Widow. And these all happened within the same time frame as Krakoa. So it's some kind of shift from the earlier more spiritual Marvel into a more atheist view. Probably the current crop of writers being edgelords.
Death in Ewing’s Valkyrie run confirmed their actual resurrections. Sorry OP you’ve been wrong for years.
>>143331826I only bring the soul thing up because they cloned Kamala (without her consent which used to be a rule but I guess not) and muslims have explicit laws against human cloning and even have taken statements against the idea of implanting memories in a clone. So has the Catholic church.
>>143331883Because let's be real, if we actually compare the end result of what the X-men are doing to everything else in the Marvel universe, the shit they're doing isn't impressive beyond the sheer convoluted measures they have to take to do it, and the fact that the Living Tribunal had to step in to say Death was pissed off at the sheer egotism with which the X-men were trying to cheat her.Resurrection itself is nothing new in the X-men franchise, especially with how much the Phoenix Force itself loves to bring back members of the Summer and Gray family. Cloning isn't new, especially since Mr. Sinister, the soviets with their Red Room, and especially Miles 'The Jackal' Warren proved how you could create a clone so close to the original in mind and body that the only difference is the soul. And even then, there's been so much meta-commentary in supernatural comics like Thor and Dr. Strange on the strange nature of superheroes where they note how superheroes themselves seem to just naturally pull themselves out of the grave into any kind of spare body that close enough resembles their body. And then you've got all of Tony's shenanigans involving copying his brain files and downloading them into new bodies, which is basically what Ultron used to do in making new minions, meaning that you could be making robot copies of dead people with few strings attached if you want to...which they ALREADY DO with the invention of the Life Model Decoy, robots so damn to the original both in biological and thought patterns that the only difference would be if you programmed them to acknowledge they AREN'T the original and technically just a robot clone.So, yeah. They can't just use the word 'clone' because otherwise the X-men stop looking so almighty and start looking like overhyped idiots who are long dead and replaced by clones of each other en masse.
heh
>>143332025It's hilarious that Miles Warren a literal COLLEGE PROFESSOR replicated the Krakoa process in his basement lab without any mutant powers. Why did the mutants need a huge island and five specific mutants to do what a middle-aged man cracked by embezzling some college funds?
>>143332025It's because Hickman wrote this without any consideration about potential moral/ethical issues and with no consideration of the existing Marvel U. He wrote a unique alternate universe that has its own laws and it only works by virtue of a bunch of conditions that don't fit into the 616 version of earth. He did the exact same thing with Avengers, Secret Warriors and SHIELD and he's doing it with GODS now. He comes in, has a bunch of big ideas, never stops to think about the deeper meaning of them, never considers any long-term consequences on characters that might exist beyond his run and then calls it a day. Ideally this is what editors should do and what they used to do, step in and say "Hey this thing doesn't exactly work, maybe you should change it a bit?". But editors don't actually do anything at Marvel anymore so we get all these weird diva writers who are just allowed to do whatever, regardless if it makes sense.
>>143332128Genuinely no goddamn clue. Like, say what you will about how much of a nutbar Miles Warren was, but the dude made two perfect replicants of Peter Parker and Gwen Stacey within, what, years if not months of Gwen's death? Frankly, the only thing the X-men have over that is how fast they can churn out those clones, and even then considering how fast Ben as The Jackal cranked out all the clones of those dead people for his weird scheme that one time, I have a feeling that the mutants were technically lagging behind the rest of Earth 616 in terms of accomplishment and only got credit because they got to ignore the whole "world outside your window" mandate holding down everyone else to allow Hickman's story to proceed at all.>>143332205Honestly, I think the sadder thing is that they could have worked that level of hubris into the writing of the overall X-men, where specialists like Dr. Strange and Mr. Fantastic hear of the X-men's various "accomplishments" like their pharmaceutical advancements and proclamations of cheating death, and note that all of this shit has been done before but either held back by the super science community or never spoken of due to the consequences of trying to taunt certain entities that don't take kindly to being diminished. But then again, that would be taking into account that a wider universe exists outside the X-men and their race war issues.
>>143332379And that would never happen because Hickman only writes bottle shows. His acknowledging wider Marvel Universe stuff is spotty and quickly brushed over. Honestly, Doctor Strange looking at Krakoa claiming they have "defeated death" and then looking over at all the X-Men souls thrown into the afterlife and shaking his head would have been a great moment.
op you are retardedcharacters die and come back fucking constantlyit doesn't matter
>>143331761>Krakoa is over, anon.The damage remains.
>>143331952>Death in Ewing’s Valkyrie run confirmed their actual resurrections. Sorry OP you’ve been wrong for years.Came into this thread to point it out. But at the same time I want to say that this sounds like a late handwave from a writer who actually gives some amount of shit about shit making sense, and needed to be done because all other writers using resurrection protocols didn't spare a second to think and a realize that without any supplementary elaborations that the souls are somehow returned to their cloned bodies the process does nothing but produce clones while the original (and all prior clones) stay deader than doornails.
>>143333087It was 100% a late-game cope from Ewing. He writes a lot of very spiritual stuff for Marvel and he understands the lore better than most of the X-writers. Unfortunately his explanation absolutely does not work with how the Resurrection protocols are stated to work (they use the word "backup" as in Cerebro stores your memories on a backup disc) and obviously does not work with the Laura-Talon situation
>>143333087I like to imagine the whole thing with Death being so pissy about it in Ewing's Valkyrie run was less the idea of heroes cheating death (cause let's face it, they've been doing that for decades, it'd be ridiculous of her to whine about it now) and more that they were going about it in ways that could prove super damaging to the stability of the universe in the long run. Especially since they compare it to the Green Door, which legitimately was causing a huge amount of issues since gamma mutates were walking in and out of gamma Hell both fully incarnated with their flesh (despite their otherwise fresh corpse still stinking up the place) or just leaping through doors and swapping bodies like hot potato. Likewise, the X-men were cloning each other through massive copious amounts of reality and time warping through Proteus and Surge, meaning that even if they were doing more than just the mere cloning and downloading of people's minds into bodies via Cerebro, the X-men were still fucking around with forces they presumed they had full control over but obviously don't. And to be fair, it wasn't long after during Clea's tenure as Sorcerer Supreme of Earth that Death had to basically hire Stephen Strange to help them put to rest a whole bunch of superheroes that were being used by the spirits of the damned as trojan horses to invade the living realms.Still an obvious cope to try and force the Hickman X-men's resurrection shit to sound far more impressive than it really was, but it'd be the only reason Death would give a damn without going full on punishing the X-men. Cause really, she should have been doing that if she was that pissy about what the X-men were doing, just straight up collecting the souls of the over-cloned and going "You're coming with me, you little bastards".
>>143333231I don't think that's the right way to look at it. The way superhero deaths usually were portrayed in comics were that they didn't really die, they just barely escaped somehow. And Death wouldn't give a shit about that. She doesn't care if somebody gets revived after a heart attack. What she cares about is being denied souls or seeing a massive alteration of the life-death cycle (like Thanos snapping half the universe). I mean i agree with you that this is all a giant dumb house of cards. It's obviously never intended to be any kind of metaphysical thing. Hickman uses words like "backup" and "memories" which imply a purely mechanical generation. But I think you can see this from a specific perspective for Marvel's Death where it could be a concern.I like the idea of her collecting mutant souls, though. They think they're getting rezzed only to end up as sock socks for whatever demon owns them now for eternity.
>>143331747Can we stop doing this shit?It's resurrection. It's their souls.And yes, there's the double Lauras. It was a clear setup to deal with that issue (hell, from HOXPOX itself there was foreshadowing of "what happens if someone is resurrected but nod dead? what happens if a soul is put in someone else's body?" and so on), but Duggan is a shitter, a fucker, and a retard, and refused to address it and simply had them have one conversation, go their separate ways, then killed the old one.And anyway, it's not the first time they do the whole "if someone is dead and they get cloned, the soul goes into the new body". It was a whole thing when Ben Reilly was the Jackal. Death herself confirmed it, even before the whole thing with Valkyrie confirming Krakoan resurrection and Green Door resurrection and all that are real resurrections.
>>143333231Having one or two folks come back every year or so was fine. It's when resurrection becomes pretty much routine that Death starts getting weaker. And when Death stops being a thing, you get a Cancerverse. Nobody wants a Cancerverse
>>143333231GREEEEN DOOORGREEEEEN DOOOOOR GREEN DOORGRRRRREEEEENNN DOOOOOOR
>>143333417God I fucking hate Gerry Duggan and Si Spurrier's stuff for Krakoa. They're both assholes. Duggan is an idiot who thinks shock value is important but doesn't want to make anything have weight or emotion. His stuff with Talon is the worst kind of shit, he brings her back only to have her literally disintegrate and dissipate beyond resurrection. Fuck you Gerry. And Spurrier is the worst kind of edgelord, the one who thinks he's terribly clever by pointing out "this isn't real resurrection" but then never does anything with it. He just wants you to know, and then he uses it as an excuse to write a bunch of awful, nihilistic shit in Way of X and Legion.I swear without those two cocksuckers Krakoa would have had an overall great track record.
Reminder that the entire Kosmar situation was one of the most fucked up things in Krakoa.>13 year old reality warper>accidentally kills her parents and turns herself into a horrible troll monster by activating her powers in her sleep>shitty writer turns that into a troon metaphor and how her "true" self is the current horrible monster
>>143333417Anon the picture you post LITERALLY says "copy". he's copying a mind and putting a NEW soul into a body.
I was watching Xaiver vs the Shiar in the latest episode of X-Men 97 and all I could think of was how hopelessly out of character he and his pupils are in the Krakoa era
>>143333549Fuck you, Spurrier is good, and his Krakoa work is below only Hickman's, Gillen's, and Ewing's. >I swear without those two cocksuckers Krakoa would have had an overall great track record.Oh yeah because fucking Howard and Orlando did such a good job>>143333597>put a soul into IT'S mutant shellIT'S SHELLThe one it belongs to, the one that belongs to itHe takes a soul and puts it in the corresponding bodyIt's a resurrection, fucker
I keep saying they could have saved Krakoa's economy by killing Emma continously and chopping up the diamond corpses.
>>143333182>Unfortunately his explanation absolutely does not work with how the Resurrection protocols are stated to work (they use the word "backup" as in Cerebro stores your memories on a backup disc) and obviously does not work with the Laura-Talon situationWay I see it the soul of a deadman just jumps into the cloned body, and the clones that are "vacant" gain their own souls from the implanted memories... somehow.In Talon's case, her soul was still with her when she was chilling in that pocket dimension, and X-23 that was cloned by mistake is just a duplicate with her own soul. So by all logic that means that the original X-23 is currently dead and will likely never come back because there's already an otherwise identical duplicate of her running around. The exact same problem applies to Beast - the OG Hank died and the one with his earlier memory snapshot is a duplicate with a different soul.It does make me wonder what happens if multiple otherwise identical clones die? Like if Stephord Cuckoos all get killed at the same time, what determines which soul gets priority when it comes to taking which cloned body?Also ALSO, it appears that the soul and memories aren't directly tied to each other because afaik both Legion and Vulcan forcibly ripped their memories out of Xavier's mind after their bodies gestated, which implies the soul inhabits the body even before the memories are transplanted.
>>143333596They outright reverse that later by dragging her to meet Caliban, who basically fixes what he can while still leaving her visibly deformed but at least in the right shape of her old body instead of a constantly-in-pain hideous troll monster like the X-men were happy to do
>>143333703It doesn't help that there was no coordination. You got one story of how it "works" in one title and then another writer goes "oh no but here's how it works". Some titles worked hard with the spiritual/metaphysical angle, others ignored it. There was very little coordination if any.There's also a storytelling aspect of it that I find infuriating and it's that the X-Men have gone for like 40 years with deaths (or fake deaths) being spread rather thinly. Like they used to walk away from most battles intact, if not uninjured. Then you establish the resurrection protocls and suddenly writers stumble over each others to have the characters die, often in ridiculously over the top manners just because they now have that backdoor. I don't know if resurrection is still gonna be a feature in the reboot/relaunch but if it is, how are they gonna pretend there's any threat to the mutants in the real world? And if not, how are they gonna explain them not using it anymore? And are they just gonna crank down on the lethality of fights again if they don't keep resurrection? Nimrod flying in and turning six X-Men into bloody smears in one panel is gonna be kind of a bad vibe if they can't just respawn. Know what I'm saying?
>>143333703>Also ALSO, it appears that the soul and memories aren't directly tied to each other because afaik both Legion and Vulcan forcibly ripped their memories out of Xavier's mind after their bodies gestated,Not sure about Vulcan, but Legion's soul was already going around with all his memories, and he just inhabited the new body since Chuck refused to complete the resurrection.
>>143333549Calling Spurrier nihilistic is a weird take.
>>143333755Obviously she was beautiful the way she was with a giant eyeball that can't blink and misshapen bones.
>>143333822Spurrier addressed a part of this at least, in showing that mutants were losing respect for the value of life, so they were much more flippant about getting into potentially lethal situations.And during times of crisis (or X-Force missions), it's logical they can lean more into the "suicide mission" logic, like all the attacks on Orchis (which ended up with Orchis having a whole lot of Wolverine skeletons), or the war with the Eternals, in which the mutants were going in, dying, getting rezzed, then going back into it.Of course, this doesn't justify situations where they're not doing any of that, but still get killed more frequently than before.You could say their enemies got more ruthless and lethal, but that still wouldn't account for the, like you say, storytelling disparity.
>>143333667don't even need to kill her, just make a lot of inert shells, telepathically force them to go diamond, then chop them up.but then, they could also just have Proteus reality-warp garbage into diamonds or something like that.
>>143333898I am in this case specifically talking about cases where it's not the result of overconfidence or suicide tactics. There are many occasions when a character (more often several) get slaughtered by an enemy with little effort. That's a weird precedent to set because it's going to make future stories look weird, like they put the kid gloves back on. Obviously it is the result of the creative teams leaning into resurrection but that's a meta reason that doesn't explain why things would be different in the in-universe context.
>>143333925Since Proteus can make stable adamantium to make a complete new Wolverine all he has to do is generate a few kilos of it and that will keep Krakoa going for a year. Adamantium is insanely rare and expensive and nations would stumble over each other to bid for it, rogue nation or no.
>>143333667There's lots of ways they could do it. Hell, Emma Frost just broadcasting "Give us loads of money and write off our loans" at world leaders would work, given that's how they got the extremely dodgy Deeplomatik Immunitee rules like they were the villains in Lethal Weapon.
>>143333974Okay but you can't say that selling chopped-up Emmas isn't funnier though.
>>143331747Krakoa was the best thing to happen to x-men and Krakoa's haters are subhuman
>>143334248Elaborate
>>143333898It's also dumb that characters who have previously been established as extremely hard to kill, regenerating or otherwise extremely tough suddenly need the resurrection. Like Wolverine is the obvious example given the previous shit with the Angel of Death but also characters like Apocalypse and Selene should have been able to recover from their deaths without needing the cloning bailout. It's very "we have to write it this way because this is the corner we're painted into"
>>143334284Nothing needs elaboration. It is self-evident
>>143333667You are aware that the more diamonds you have, the less they're intrinsically worth, yes?
>>143333667It irritates me to no end that Krakoa EVER had any kinda of financial problems considering they had multiple reality warpers and god knows how many people who can crap out free matter and energy. Or how it was a major plot point for the entirety of Krakoa's existence that the queue of mutants that need to be resurrected is enormous and they are working through it at a glacial pace. A problem that would could have been easily solved if someone actually looked at the mutants they had at their disposal and utilized them with some amount of intelligence. Mutant circuits were such a big deal and had a fuckton of focus, and yet absolutely NOBODY had a simple thought of letting Rogue copy the Five to become a one-woman resurrection circuit and then to let her copy Multiple Man and go through the entirety of the queue in the matter of hours. Matter of fact, why the fuck did Hope even need the other 4 in the first place if her entire shtick was copying mutant powers?
>>143334248>Krakoa was the best thing to happen to x-menWhat I'm getting from this is that X-Men sucked gigantic balls for the entirety of their publication history.
>>143334370If the person claiming its good can't explain even one aspect of why it's good, then it clearly isn't>>143334438The best part is how the books themselves ask the very obvious question of why they don't just mass-clone the Five first to really get through the cue, just to dismiss it because it's Mr. Sinister asking the obvious question
>>143334438Proteus could probably also just solo a lot of these problems. It worries me that they actually know that he's a reality warper as it is acknowledged in several storylines but they never acknowledge that he is a literal world-ending power, beyond anything they call Omega Level. He can poop out a set of Adamantium bones, what the fuck does he need anybody else's help for? He can solve every problem on Krakoa except no he can't because then we wouldn't have convoluted reasons for why it failed.They could at least dignify it with a handwave like saying that Proteus is too mentally fucked up by finding out about his mom being am omniversal reincarnation mutant satan that he can't focus on the job properly or something.
>>143334548I think the implicit reason Proteus just quietly went along with everything was because he still couldn't solve the underlying issue that he was a bodiless energy consciousnesses, and that he was reliant on a steady stream of Fantomex clone bodies to house him in order to keep living on the same plane of existence as the rest. But you're right, considering they invited all of their big bad guys and enemy factions there into one place, it's obvious that most of them never really NEEDED to play ball or nice with the Quiet Council beyond the fact the X-men were literally handing them everything on a silver platter, and almost every potential issue is solved by the fact nobody wanted to bother with the consequences of those particular future problems. Like, imagine if Nate decided to get out of his funk and found out about what they were doing on Krakoa.
>>143334594Didn't he find out? I never read the Cable books.It's also funny to me that the second Xavier falters Selene and Shaw instantly stab him in the back.
>>143334633Far as I know, Nate Grey is still hiding in his own hippie dimension with an alternate Magneto, blissfully unaware of the shit going down in the mainline X-men since I'm pretty sure that if he were around than everything surrounding Orchis and the Dominion crap would be even bigger jokes as he lifts an eyebrow and wipes them out of existence.
>>143334594I'm still annoyed that the Fall of X arc wasn't about all those factions deciding to go back to fucking with humans starting by destroying Orchis. Like have Exodus destroy all of MODOK's shit instead of dumping him into the white hot room.
>>143334657Oh man don't even get me started on the multiple layers of plot contrivance they needed to put in place to make Orchis such a massive threat. It's just so hard to walk back from too, now the whole MU has a totally different vibe.
>>143334675It would have basically capped off everything the X-men's villains said about mutants, even considering the fact Orchis started it>>143334681About the only thing I'm glad for is that the idea of Orchis is so thoroughly trashed that the comics aren't going to be trying this shit again for at least a year or so, with how little anyone likes or enjoys them
>>143334851>About the only thing I'm glad for is that the idea of Orchis is so thoroughly trashed that the comics aren't going to be trying this shit again for at least a year or so, with how little anyone likes or enjoys themThey are so totally bereft of any joy or fun as villains. The reasons sentinels and Nimrod are always just pawns for some greater storyline or villain is that they're boring. Boring and repetitive. Kill all mutants, etc. And Orchis is all just that, a shitty house Harkonnen ripoff sequel to previous anti-mutant programs. I have to constantly remind myself that there are named characters in Orchis because it's just such a ball of nothing. And apparently it's been leaked that Orchis isn't going to be the final boss fight of Krakoa anyway so it's probably gonna be the Moira-Sinister Dominion which is such an insanely convoluted idea
>>143334959Exactly. About the saddest thing is that the closest the era came to any real fun was watching the trio of Stasis, Nimrod, and MODOK randomly running around causing mischief, because it made Nimrod into basically a giant mutant-killing frat bro with Stasis and MODOK as his mad scientist wingmen gleefully joking around as they fuck over the X-men and mutants. They absolutely could have done something more with Orchis, and they botched the shit out of it.
>>143334999MODOK is always fun in any title he appears but I think that's more because of MODOK being a great concept from the start rather than his specific role in this storyline. But yeah apart from those three what is Orchis really? A bunch of sentinels, a bunch of boring goons, high-tech weapons, oh yay. And Karima got to eat shit for it too. Not that I didn't expect that, I don't even remember the last writer who cared about writing her well. Maybe it was Messiah Complex? Jesus that's over a decade ago.
>>143335089At this point, I'm just going to be grateful when all this is finally fucking over and they go back to shit like Cyclops fighting Unus the Untouchable or whatever instead of trying to pretend groups like Orchis ever mattered.
I wish they could have gone a bit more into the presumably terrifying experience of losing your body and being plunked into a new one. But that probably would have been a bit too real for the direction most of the writers wanted where resurrection was just a handwave get out of jail free card.
>>143334191I don't know, solving the deficit with the world's most profitable but low effort OnlyFans simping club has a certain ring to it. Still, its not like non-Sinister mutants wouldn't break clones down for parts if they wanted to - Quentin Quire had all those variant clones of himself to beat up, and if I recall correctly Forge made a sapient spacesuit out of another X-Men didn't he?
>>143334335Apocalypse also had a clone that was up, about and actively repudiating his "I need to be a dickhead all the time or I'll die" reputation, but that got buried good and quick too.
>>143334959Nimrod as initially presented, as a reborn (one might even say "resurrected") human with a dead person's memories, cruelly having that ripped away and then having to learn to be someone new was an interesting premise. Too bad the people in charge were in love with the idea of an idiot fratboy robot.
>>143336305That was pretty fucking weird, Hell, them being able to rebuild Poccy's Celestial tech is stretching things already.
>>143331893Cap is technically still a different Cap altogether created by the cosmic cube right?
>>143331770You don't need a reality warper backed by a power amplifier to make clones.
>>143336653The Cap situation is filled with retcons and confusing. Writers have had different ideas about which Cap is which
They were always villains. Only mentally deranged twitoids identify with a bunch of terrorists.
Krakoa sucked ass
>>143333231>reality and time warping through Proteus and SurgeAlways funny to see confused Anons talk like they're experts.
>>143334464With a number of brief isolated spikes of quality, yes, it did.But beyond that, between Bendis, the Inhumans push, the Rosenberg era, and so on, the X-Men were in the absolute shitter for a good decade, if not more, before Krakoa kicked in.The only proper good X-Men title from that era is Remender's Uncanny X-Force, and maybe Spurrier's X-Men Legacy.
>>143334681Eh. It's like HAMMER replacing SHIELD and being such a huge threat only to then dissolve like nothing happened. Just fodder.
>>143338343Give anon a break, he just got a name switched up with Tempus.
>>143339086Funny how ORCHIS is supposedly composed of all those intelligence organizations (SHIELD, HYDRA, HAMMER, SWORD etc) but it doesn't actually matter because it's just X-Men versus generic evil mooks anyway. I don't even know why HAMMER would still exist I thought it ended when Osborn was ousted
>>143339162The two have nothing to do with each other. It's like mixing up Thor and D-Man but they're both Avengers, right?
>>143339372Both are, uh, teen girls. Yeah.
>>143339458And Thor and D-Man are both old men
>>143339458Tempus was introduced as a teenager, but she lived in the future for years because of her powers. She got married and had a child there. Some people really want to talk when they know nothing.
>>143331747>Beast is restoredi wouldn't say that at all. he doesnt' have any memories of struggling with the legacy virus or endangered species, he doesn't know the treachery of cyclops keeping secrets, he doesn't know that cyclops was willing to put his finger on the trigger of his visor when original beast disobeyed an order to kill bishop, and he has no juxtaposition or contrast against dark beast since writers want to push apocalypse as some bullshit "hero". the role that dark beast played in uncanny x-force is diminished and therefore uncanny x-force's significance is diminished because it takes away from the parable warning against social darwinism. idpol liberals have fucking RUINED x-men and there needs to be a reboot to before bendis>>143332999trips of fucking truth
>>143334438Same reason that you never see any of the powerful psychics actually using their full power in a fight. Because that would make things too easy, and the story would end too quickly and have no conflict and blah blah blah.
I know people are probably sick of my nostalgia-fagging, but I always liked how the old Marauders were cloned by Sinister as part of their whole "they're like the X-Men but shitty and without values or dignity" schtick. I also think that while it's fine to have heroes make deals with the devil occasionally and that it makes for compelling stories, having them consistently break bread with some of their oldest and most violent or cruel villains for what are basically ethnic loyalty reasons is not a great move if the authors didn't intend for the whole X-Men franchise to go in an unsustainably dark direction. Hanging out with Juggernaut? Sure, he goes legit on occasion and he mostly just robs banks and shit. Magneto? He's had constant and decently-handled redemption arcs for decades despite being a genuine terrorist so it works out. Mister Sinister? Apocalypse? Sabretooth? At this point the writers were writing checks that somebody was going to have to messily cash with weird and sloppy retcons or something.This is the kinda stuff that makes me miss Jim Shooter's morality-autism. Reading the interview with Claremont where they talk about how he forced the decision to kill off Phoenix/Jean gave me a lot of respect for the guy.
>>143342208>having them consistently break bread with some of their oldest and most violent or cruel villains for what are basically ethnic loyalty reasons is not a great move if the authors didn't intend for the whole X-Men franchise to go in an unsustainably dark directionoh yeah, agreed. I know they've always had redeeming villains as one of their M.O.s, but this shit's just ridiculous. at least Sinister and Sabretooth actually stayed evil, i guess
>>143342208That's why I said that resurrection through cloning used to be a hallmark of villains only in one of my posts. The Marauders were clear signs of that. One of them dies? Just decant a new one. Who cares, as long as you have the same powerset and the same memories. It was a clear sign that to Sinister, individual life didn't matter as long as he had the same tools. Same with the Deadpool villains called the Executive Elite. They were mercenaries who had themselves cloned constantly and it was framed as fucked up and unsettling. Heroes being cloned back to life has literally only been a thing in the last 5 or so years other than a few weird and already morally questionable examples like Xavier. But now they have done it like 40 times within a 5-year span. Shit is weird.
