>>16136943
Consider the average case of a Western vegan products consuming person.
Then yes, their animal death rates will be substantial, as they are among the consumers of crop.
Short caveat before I continue: however, vegans tend to buy less ultra-processed goyslop, which in turn lessens this dependence. The ultra-processing is significant because it tends to used much more in grain-based monocutures where that incidental animal killing can happen; if the vegan mostly eats apples, pears & grapes, which come from orchards that don't get picked by combine harvesters, the animal death rare is much lower.

Now let's regard the top meat consumer. He is animal-cruelty-wise "top" if all of his meat requirements are satisfied by e.g. some Montana ranch, where the cattle eat weeds and restore desertified areas with their dung. Basically 0 animals are harmed, besides the cattle at the end of the line needing to be slaughtered. By there certainly is barely a "collateral damage" compared to non-pastoral modern agriculture.

I have now presented two delimiting cases (you might misread the cattle as denoting some "lofty ideal", but nope, I actually mean it's already a common "high-tier" M.O).
Do you see how any deviations, now,from these two ideals worsen your argument?

If you, the vegan, simply refuse too buy things created by large agribusinesses and depend on things like said local orchards, your animal pain footprint now starts looking not so significant anymore.
More importantly:
If being a beef baron implies also putting your cattle at the final months of their lives into a CAFO (i.e. factory farm), you are now not so innocuous anymore.

How realistic is it that we can feed 100 of millions of goyslop-craving golems purely via mentioned Montanan rancher, when evidently we need to have a lot of these beef barons that don't give a shit about animal welfare, just so we even meet the demand for cheap meat?

>>16136943
>Is it true that far, far more animals die in order to produce vegan food than do to provide food for normal sane people?
No, because animals need feed too. From just the land we use to feed animals we could easily feed the world.
>Has science ever bothered to count up the animals dead from all of the pest control operations that farms do?
Yes, that could be answered with a google search

>>16137036
>From just the land we use to feed animals we could easily feed the world.
the rest of the world can already feed itself, theres nobody starving to death anywhere

>>16136943
Large scale farming of any kind will always be bad. The only option is to reduce the population, starting with china

>>16137036
>From just the land we use to feed animals we could easily feed the world.
Fake and gay. Simplistic comparisons are made on land use, without regard to land quality.
A lot of marginal land which can't economically grow nutritious human-grade crops is used to grow fodder for cattle. If it could be used to grow crops, it would, because crops yield much more money per acre for farmers than livestock do.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_land
Stop pretending all land is equal. Prime, fertile arable cropland is not the same as marginal land.

>>16136943
>Is it true that far, far more animals die in order to produce vegan food than do to provide food for normal sane people?
No, that meme comes from quacks that sell delusional shit like grass feed crap or regenerative crapiculture

>>16136943
What's this board's obsession with veganism?

>>16136943
animals prefer eating non gmo organic foods so probably

>>16136943
No. Why would they?

>>16137032
Retarded drivel.

>>16137208
Rancher cope.

>>16137265
It's all /pol/ shit. They just want to feel like they won something and they hate vegans.

>>16137349
>Rancher cope.
Not an argument. Not all land is created equal.

>>16137265
it's trolling

90% of this board is trolls trolling trolls

>>16137377
Even if you exclude pasture, land for growing crops for livestock consumption (including exports for that purpose) vastly outsizes land for crops for human consumption (again including exports).

I've no idea why you think animals don't need nutrition. Surely you've heard of corn-fed beef.

>>16137576
Livestock consumes parts of those crops that have previously been used for humans, e.g. onions oil extraction, then the inedible remains are fed to animals. It's incorrect to fully attribute it to livestock if those crops would need to be grown regardless of livestock or not. To the contrary actually, animals reintroduce those calories back to humans when we eat them

File: meat-a-benign-extravaganc(...).jpg (95 KB, 667x1000)

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read something like
Meat a benign extravagance by Simon Fairlie

>>16137576
I'm not even include pasture. Fodder is grown on marginal land in places where no livestock graze and is not counted as pastuere, but the land is not suitable for growing commercial / human grade crops

>>16137882
It would be better if that land was left wild, ranching makes otherwise worthless wildlands valuable, and contributes to deforestation. Also, even if we had cattle only graze on otherwise fallow land, we would need to massively cut down on meat consumption

deep and complex topic polluted by ideologues

>>16137882
The area on the left being greener doesn’t necessarily mean it’s better. Introduction of pasture grasses for livestock is a big reason the Great Plains are so full of invasives. The more barren area on the right is likely has greater native plant diversity

>>16138017
Deep and complex topic on the left, polluted by ideologues on the right. As ever.

>>16138216
>The area on the left being greener doesn’t necessarily mean it’s better
That wasn't the argument. The point was that the argument "all the land used to feed animals" would let us rewild all that land is spurious, because it assumes that enough of the land either in use today or that would be 'freed up' without animal husbandry is suited to grow human-edible crops, but that hasn't been shown to be the case. A significant portion of global calories come from animal sources which are ultimately taking advantage of the productive capacity of marginal land that is unsuited for food crops. Not just pasture land either, but fodder fields.

ruminant > monogastric

>>16138594
Ideologues are the lefts wheelhouse, press them beyond ideology and they pretty much have nothing. The right has been adopting the lefty ideologue stuff for a while now

>>16138719
>The right has been adopting the lefty ideologue stuff for a while now
cthulu only swims left or at least until society goes broke and natural hierarchies of ability are forced to reassert themselves

>>16136943
if you're feeding grain to your cows, there are animals being killed in the crop field as well

>>16139584
so you're saying that eating vegetative matter is bad because of the evils of agriculture? why are you trying to blame people who eat cows and drink milk for that? most cows are pasture fed.
vegans are the ones who eat a 100% agriculture diet, they are responsible for nearly all the animal deaths and for poisoning the planet with pesticides

>>16137349
>Retarded drivel.
You have the reading comprehension of a 2nd grader. It's obvious you couldn't even penetrate a text as mine. You can't even summarize it.

>>16136943
Have you considered that five mites is far more animals than 1 cow despite the cow outweighing the five mites by over a ton?

>>16137576
Because the government massively subsidizes corn and its far cheaper to grow shitty corn that only cows want to eat than to grow non gmo sweet corn that is suitable for the average entitled vegan heifer.

>>16137265
poltards want so badly to have the science board agree with them so they spam it daily

>>16139584
If you are grazing your cows on grass, they are also eating all the bugs, mice, snakes, birds, and other creatures who live near grass and can fit in the cows' mouths.

Land used to feed animals is useless for crops. Do you think big Corn Syrup corpo in USA would give up land to cows if they could produce more Corn Syrup? Don't be stupid.

>>16140210
So you are saying pretty much none of middle america could be used to grow anything and that is why flyover states all smell like cow farts?

>>16137189
No, starting with India

As ab acctual agscifag is this how it feels for the other scifag disciplines when a bunch of retards start debating nonsense they vaguely understand because of some popsci vud they were recommended on tiktok?

>>16140250
No, you are describing what it feels like to be a retarded midwit who pays a lot of money to active study the problem and still can't articulate anything helpful, so you just blend in with all the nonsense spouting retards as a result.

>>16137189
We need to start with democrats, those parasites are beyond useless, they are extremely harmful for civilization.

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>>16137265
>>16137349
>>16137451
>>16140131

>>16136943
Of course it isn't
>be vegan
>spray pesticides everywhere so the crops you eat can grow

>be meat eater
>spray pesticides everywhere so the crops your cow eats can grow, then eat the cow

It's a whole additional step until the nutrients are on your dish. Of course it's more resource intensive.

Also
>be vegan
>plant crops to eat them
>that's it
>be meat eater
>plant crops for your cattle to eat
>ALSO need crops for yourself, because no meat eater only ever eats meat and nothing else
>pretty much need double the amount of soil

>>16140309
No, nobody cares if the cow eats a few bugs, its not near the priority as making sure food people eat isn't infested with bugs.

>plant crops to eat them
>that's it
No you have to kill the animals that compete for the food since you can't just let the cows eat them.

>>16140312
>No you have to kill the animals that compete for the food

You mean like meat eaters have to kill the animals that compete for the cattle?
>be vegan
>spray pesticides everywhere so your food doesn't get eaten

>be meat eater
>set up bear traps everywhere and eradicate local predators so your food doesn't get eaten
>inject gallons of antibiotics into your cattle so it doesn't get killed (eaten) by bacteria

>>16140320
The animals who kill cattle will also kill people, vegans also kill coyotes and big cats if they invade their land and threaten their children and people would take antibiotics to protect themselves regardless of cattle population.

>>16140323
>>16140320
They also capture predators in the wild just to inoculate them, chip them, and release them back into the wild.

>>16140323
>The animals who kill cattle will also kill people
LOL no. Just no.
>foxes kill anything larger than a chicken

But I admit
>coyotes, big cats
occasionally kill people once every blue moon. But then, most of these cases are retarded cityfolk walking between them and their cubs to take le cute snapchat pictures and shit.

Also maybe stop spreading into their habitat like a fucking cancer, then you won't have to worry about being eaten. Which is easy to do if you don't need that much farmland for growing cattle feed.

organic farming is effectively impossible under veganism, livestock grant an immense amount of capability, both in crop rotation and use of crop byproducts. Total productive value of a piece of land is enhanced by the benefits livestock offer.
Consider grazing sheep in a orchard.

>>16140340
Babies aren't larger than a chicken, though.

I accept your concession, even vegans will kill predators that threaten their children.

>>16140256
No, most of the people in this thread are either retarded or completely delusional with no direct practical understanding of what they're talking about.
Measured and reasonable points are simply ignored. This applies to both "sdes" whenever you make a point it's taken out of context while the most extreme circumstances are presented as if they're absolutes.

There isn't so much a debate as people shouting at each other, the few reasonable observers probably leave more confused than when they entered the thread.

>>16140351
Kind of like how you are ignoring the content of the thread and just posting retarded nonsense about yourself and other people instead?

>>16140348
>even vegans will kill predators that threaten their children
Of course they do. But they'd have to do it less often because encounters between humans and predatory wildlife wouldn't happen that much in a vegan society, due to less space needed for farming.

>I accept your concession
LOL ok bro.
>my vegan neighbor swatted a bee once so it's okay for me to Zyklon B the entire forest LOL

>>16140365
There are papers on the environmental footprints of various systems. If you want to read those go ahead.

>>16140370
>less space needed for farming.
You wish. Without the cows on the marginal land to distract the predators, they will come to town looking for prey.

>>16140371
Too bad you aren't actually in the industry and don't have those handily available since you seemingly have no idea what you are talking about given you just want to talk about yourself and other people.

>>16140382
If you want papers I'm not going to find them for you.

>>16140380
>Without the cows on the marginal land to distract the predators, they will come to town looking for prey.
LMAO
>be bear
>untouched wilderness
>game in abundance
>deer everywhere
>salmon in every river
>hell you know what, I think I'm just gonna leave my habitat and go on a 100 mile hike to the next human settlement so I can get some low quality meat that shoots at me, instead of staying where I'm not being shot at and where I still have everything I need

But hey, get a load of this
>be bear
>be hungry because there's nothing to eat in my 0.5 square mile wildlife reserve
>let's check out that human settlement, yum
>OH NO there's bovines standing on that field, how am I gonna fill my belly, I'm gonna starve noooo

You can remain vegan right up until the first sounder finds your crop.

>>16140164
Great, I don't have a problem with ending animal life to sustain my own. Vegetarians often do.

So, the millions of animal species that are going extinct due to destruction of rainforests to make more room for crops to feed livestock do not count?
Also, crops for human consumption are regulated, meaning they are produced way more environmentally friendly than crops for livestock. Add in the gigantic doses of antibiotics that are wasted for "preliminary caution" for livestock, which is one of the biggest medical crisis of our time, and it should be pretty clear how bad the current meat industry is for humanity.

Last but not least, vegans tend to be more aware of their food, meaning they will tend to buy organic products, which are (at least in first world countries) not nearly as destructive for the local wildlife than the garbage that is fed to livestock.

By the way, the average american eats the equivalent of about 0,2 cows, 0,25 pigs and about 35 chickens of meat per year. I don't know how small the picrel family is, but it seems a bit unrealistic

>>16140571
See that's a compounding factor we're comparing a fringe group of vegans to the conventional masses, shouldn't we instead compare a more equivalent group?
It's like asking who is healthier between a fitness nut and someone eating the SAD.

>>16140556
>Vegetarians often do
Thats why they want to minimize the number of animals that get killed in the process.

Crops get fed to farm animals too?

>>16137036
>From just the land we use to feed animals we could easily feed the world.
Nope. Most grazing is done on land that has poor farming suitability. It's land that would be otherwise wasted if animals weren't grazing on it.

>>16140634
Grazing makes up about half of livestock feed, the other half is grain and onions.

By the way, do you want to guess what else we could use land with poor farming suitability for? Houses, factories, wildlife reservats, solar farms, power plants, sex dungeons and so on.
About 50% of the habitable surface of this planet is used for livestock. If you actually think this is all wasteland, you are severely retarded

>>16140667
>livestock feed,
exclude monogastrics and what happens to your guesstimate?

>>16140634
>wasted land
That's not a great way to look at it and is crude phrasing.
land value agricultually is related to its productive potential and ease of use.
the idea of wasted land is very flawed.
What we should look at more specifically is crops grown specifically for the feeding of animals but the use of by products and co products confuses the topic.

>>16140667
Okay so since your claim is grazing only makes up half of livestock feed, let's cut livestock in half and only keep enough to sustain by grazing alone. The price of dairy and meat will go up so poor people like you won't be able to afford it anymore, but I'll still be able to afford it so this isn't a problem for me.

>>16140689
>What we should look at more specifically is crops grown specifically for the feeding of animals
Not all food fed to grazing animals is grown solely for them. They often eat parts of the food not fit for human consumption.

>>16140693
I know anon, that's what I meant by by products and co products.

>>16140631
Correct.

>>16140250
Yep.

It's better for nature to nuke an area, than grow avocadoes in the same piece of land.
They kill the most insects, animals and the earth is drained off nutrients for years.dstk

Not a vegan, but I side with them in this point that the argument doesn't stand because animals are fed with crops just the same. They take their protein from the plants and we take it from them, there is always loss of energy in the process. Their point is not to replace a cow for a crop, but a cow and several crops for just the crops. Energetically speaking, it makes sense.

>>16141022
The energy savings is dubious and cost/benefit of completely changing humanity's diet for a hypothetical energy savings sounds retarded as well.

>>16141030
Again, I'm not a vegan, so I don't believe we should all just change diet. I just think the argument that we kill pests for growing plants does not make a good case for meat eaters, because we kill pests to grow plants to feed animals either way. And the trophic level energy loss is not negligible, I believe.

>>16141022
animals can convert low quality plant material into high nutritional value meat. there is a vast distance in the implications.

>>16141037
No, the purpose of raising the argument is to stop retarded vegan who've never thought about trhis before from claiming some moral superiority by thinking they aren't killing animals because they aren't eating things made from animals.
It may seem obvious to most people but not always that clear to those who want to believe in something.

>>16141046
Just add hemp seed to vegan meals. It's protein is equal to meat protein.

>>16141054
>It's protein is equal to meat protein.
You don't actually believe this do you?

>>16141059
I mean for one thing think of all the milions of pig farmers who would be planting and feeding hemp seed if that were actually true.

>>16141059
How am I wrong? Hemp seeds provide protein with all amino acids. It's a complete protein. Excellent Omega 3-6 ratio as well.

>>16141073
Find some pig feed studies and get back to me.

>>16141082
Yep figured as much, as usual they're low in certain key amino acids same as most plant proteins.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2020.572906/full
However, hemp by-products are deficient in growth-limiting amino acids including methionine (1.8 and 2.0% CP) and lysine (6.4 and 6.8% CP)

Considering this is a ruminant study which tend to be a lot less sensitive to this problem compared to monogastrics I think the results are probably much worse than you are aware of.

>>16141046
Just because they can doesnt mean that's what's always happening in industrialized society, or even the majority of time.

>>16141073
they don't, you're only willing to believe that because you're a drug addict

>>16142910
Funny because I don't even drink. What do hemp seeds have to do with drugs?

>>16136943
How many insects die to the chickens or does that not count for some reason?

Meatfag bad faith "arguments" will never change reality. A meat-heavy diet is unhealthy and globally disastrous. These are facts. You're not permitted your own facts. Only your own stupid opinions. Nor are you permitted propaganda. That's finished now.

>>16140422
>>deer everywhere
Deer don't manage their own populations, they will just over breed and start wandering into the city leading all the predators there too.

>>OH NO there's bovines standing on that field, how am I gonna fill my belly, I'm gonna starve noooo
Are you dumb, they are going to eat the bovine just like they would have eaten the deer, so they won't have to wander into town chasing deer or looking for human food.

>>16143083
>hey goy, eat the bugs
>whaaatt!!?!?! chickens are eating bugs!?!?!
>noooooo!!! chickens can't eat bugs!!!!! thats like racist and stuff or something!!!
>muh social conscience!!!
>muh social conscience mufffugguh!!
>muh smug sense of superiority that i conjured as a coping mechanism because i have nothing genuine or tangible to base my self worth on!!!!

>>16143349
When deer get overpopulated they'll end up eating all the crops that vegans depend on and the farmer will have to start shooting all the deer to assure that the selfish greedy vegans don't starve to death

How do vegans respond?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BcvN9n69Eo

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>>16144928
stupidly

>>16141022
>because animals are fed with crops
They aren't. Cows walk out into the pasture and feed themselves. Then they walk back into the barn at night. They also walk themselves over to the milking facility and eventually they even walk themselves to the slaughterhouse. Its a completely pollution free process.
If the cow pasture were converted to farmland then that land would be worked with massive tractors powered by enormous diesel engines that create a lot of pollution. And the land would be sprayed with massive amounts of pesticides, another pollutant, so that bugs don't eat all the crops. Animal husbandry is far, far less polluting that modern agriculture is.

>>16143472
>When the various strawmen in my head clash it's clearly because they are so illogical and hypocritical!

>>16146545
I wish it was like that, most of the animals are fed with portions.

>>16146545
You have a warped idea of food production
For a start what would be the point of housing them if they're already foraging except to avoid climatic extremes or certain nocturnal predators?

My cattle spend pretty much all of their summer out in the fields grazing as soon as the ground has dried out enough and the grass starts growing in the spring, they come back for the occasional check up or sorting but then I bring them back and put them in pens when the ground gets too wet in the autumn. in my climate this means the cattle spend around 5-6 months housed in pens although I leave some small groups of certain age groups outside all year.
In order to house these animals I grow and preserve either as hay or a lactic acid fermentation known as silage which are either kept in barns for the hay or a mixture of small plastic sealed bales and bunkers for the silage, Many crops can be grow and ensiled typically we cut grass and grow a form of maize, the maize is an annual so it must be sown each year but the grass is a perennial and may typically be resown or overseeded every 5-10 years if it's not permanent pasture. winter feeding will also incorporate a concentrate component either grains or some byproduct for more energy
On top of this we need to use a bedding material commonly straw the stalks of grain crops which provides a dry and absorbent bed for them although other material are used such as saw dust this bedding straw is typically purchased unless grown and then stored in the barns.
During the summer months because of the growing cycle and the maturity of grasses making them low value at certain periods to counter this we grow fodder crops that are grazed using a movable electric wire fence. these crops can also be used in the spring or autumn to augment what's available as grass productivity is low.
In other parts of the world they certainly can keep their stock out all year which likely saves a massive amount of hassle and cost

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Who gives a fuck every single one of these issues would be solved in under a year if we decided to pay attention to them. You could be vegan, eat meat every waking hour, pump as much co2 in the atmosphere as you want and it wouldn't matter

>>16136943
>Is it true that far, far more animals die in order to produce vegan food than do to provide food for normal sane people?
Yes, that is true

>Has science ever bothered to count up the animals dead from all of the pest control operations that farms do?
No, they wouldn't do it because the result would be a bad look for the "eat the bugs" globohomo agenda they're paid to shil

>>16150497
Good question, do vegans have an answer for it?

>>16143083
>A meat-heavy diet is unhealthy and globally disastrous
>t. the vegan who keeps collapsing at work because they never quite figured out how to supplement properly before they acquired anemia

>>16140127
Corn is a drought tolerant C4 photosynthesizer grass. It is among the most efficient plants (C4) on Earth in terms of turning sunlight into cellulose.

Cows turn inedible cellulose into dairy and meat.

>>16141054
>It's protein is equal to meat protein.
Incorrect. Protein quality is 66%. Meaning you must eat 150% the equivalent dry weight of protein. Meat quality is 100% and milk is 105% because it has compounds that aren't protein, but readily convert into protein.

>>16141061
Pigs can eat things you can't. Pigs might not be ruminants, but they're not like you. Animal food is not people food.

>>16151492
Read my reply again, I'm not sure you understood it. Or you just wanted to make an irrelevant jibe.

One of the key factors in pig diet formulation is getting the amino acid balance right for optimal growth. Methionine and Lysine are two of the common limiting factors.

And pigs are less sensitive than we are, so if hemp seed doesn't provide a good supply for pigs then it certainly fails even worse for human diets.

>>16143349
>Deer don't manage their own populations
That’s what the bears are for
>start wandering into the city leading all the predators there too
That’s not a thing, especially not with bears. They’re in cities because of garbage and fragmentation of habitat, not because they’re following deer
>so they won't have to wander into town chasing deer or looking for human food.
Yet they wander into towns regardless of whether or not there’s cattle around. Bears aren’t hyper predatory, they would much rather go through a trash can than attempt to hunt large prey

>>16145999
Has science ever found out the reason that vegans are so much lower IQ than people without eating disorders?

>>16136943
Vegans only care about macroscopic animals that are immediately visible. If you count the absolute individual animals killed or suffered, then yes vegan food has the largest negative impact in terms of absolute animal deaths and suffering. You can arrive to this conclusion by simple deduction.

Animal husbandry doesn't have as big of a pest problem compared to farming plants even though they require more land. Cattle can feed on grass and other plants that are mostly immune to pests. Plants to feed cattle don't require constant maintenance and pesticides.

Farming plants require constant maintenance, vigilance, and use of pesticides to eliminate pests, which include insects, mammals, birds, worms, and other multicellular animals that have nervous systems. They're killed by farming machinery, targeted killings, poisoning from pesticides and fertilizers.

Land which grass and other plants grow to feed farm animals are self-replenishing, self-maintaining, and don't require tilling, fertilizer and pesticide use, or targeted killings.

Vegans don't actually care about animals. They care more about alleviating their guilt. They have no criteria or metric for animal suffering or even what an animal is.

>>16152871
>Cattle can feed on grass and other plants that are mostly immune to pests.
No, cattle just eat the pests too, so there are less pests as a result and the pests tend to avoid the fields filled with cattle because the ones that don't get eaten by the cattle.

Can I just interject that livestock support more insect life because of the production of dung and various flies and parasites that live off them, these insects then support small insectivore animals and birds which subsequently feed up the food chain benefitting larger predators.
Think of the use of mobile chicken pens following rotational cattle grazing.

>>16152875
You're retarded

>>16152987
Literally look it up and you can find videos of cattle eating any pest you can think of: bugs, snakes, mice, snails, rabbits, birds, etc, anything they can fit in their mouth they will eat because they are opportunistic omnivores.

>>16152995
cows are a ravenous grazer, to them if it's on the ground it's probably food unless it's spiky or smells like shit, we used to feed them meat and bone meal as a cheap protein source before it was banned after the bse psyop

>>16153002
Tell that to the retard >>16152987, not the one who originally pointed out the facts to a retard.

>>16153010
But anon I am replying to you, cows aren't preferentiallty carnivorous. too much will dusrupt rumen function.

>>16153016
Which is why I didn't say preferentially, I said opportunistically as in if some pest is within striking distance while they graze on grass, they will probably eat the pest as well just like you said.

>>16153016
The would be if they had the choice available to them, their bodies make running down sufficient prey to satisfy their appetites pretty much impossible.

>>16136943
Trophic levels dumbass

>>16153961
>The would be if they had the choice available to them.
No, Im telling you that it causes rumen disruption, they rely on a fermentation vat. it requires certain conditions to fuction optimally, There are plenty of extremely fast ruminants they evolved to be able to outrun predators.
I don't understand why you are forcing the idea, it's worse than vegans claiming you can feed a cat a vegan diet.
Just stick to the facts and or take a course in ruminant physiology.
they consume plant material and convert the various normally indigestible structural polisaccharides into short chain fatty acids

>>16154637
>Just stick to the facts
The facts are that cattle are opportunistic omnivores, so they will eat pretty much anything that gets close to their mouth especially pests in their field.

>>16137189
Nah... keep that energy to yourself...

>>16154674
Omnivore here is really not the right word for it, It's probably closer to a faculative herbivore. But you seem to be pushing a personal agenda here. Pigs are actual omnivores and quite vicious ones, why not go with them instead?

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>>16154752
cow eating a snake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMmUHXiB4ak
deer eating a rabbit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWvQfGXO6rI
elephant eating fish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WEuDFjDdU4

"""herbivores"""" only exist in your gay schoolbooks, they don't exist in nature. cows can't read, so they don't know they're only supposed to eat plants and instead they eat whatever they want. if they have the opportunity to choose between eating plant and eating meat, they choose to eat meat every single time

>>16155916
Do you not understand the meaning of words?

>>16155916
Herbivores exist to the same extent that unicorns do, only in printed works of fiction.

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>>16136943
yeah
if you plow up land for a bean field all the insects, birds, rodents, earthworms die
if you use land to graze cows nothing dies
Dairy has a feed conversion ratio of 1.3
Land is more than 1.3x as biomass productive as a treed meadow than as a bean field
Whey has a protein quality of 105 beans have a protein quality of 70-80
Etc

>>16156288
>t. the disingenuous bad faith arguer who won't admit that animals that clearly eat both plants and meats when given the chance are opportunistic omnivores

>>16157366
>if you use land to graze cows nothing dies
Except all the insects, birds, rodents, earthworms, etc that try to compete with the cows and get eaten by the cows as a result.

>>16154752
>why not go with them instead?
Because other people aren't falsely claiming that pigs won't eat pests, birds, and other animals that get in their way, so there would be no point in proving nobody wrong when you are definitely wrong about cows since they are definitely opportunistic omnivores that will definitely eat whatever other animals they can fit in their mouths.

>>16157400
Let's try a different slant here. because you don't seem to see the problem.
A dog can eat some plants but a dog is not an omnivore it's a facultative carnivore.

A ruminant can eat some meat but it is not an omnivore it is a facultative herbivore.


Why someone is so determined to try and push this narrative of cows and other herbivores as engaging in ravenous carnivory is really baffling to me, it just seems so forced and an utter distraction from a meaningful debate.

>>16157404
This would be a lo easier if you knew what words actually mean.

>>16157471
*a lot easier

https://youtu.be/Zea8vTh5GSI

>>16157402
They'd just have been eaten by other animals if the cows weren't there.

>>16157469
No, you seem to be trying to push the agenda of veganism and trying to establish cows empathetic animals that don't eat meat, so shouldn't be eaten when that is an absolute lie and your sacred little cows have no problem devouring other cute little animals.

https://www.purina.com/articles/dog/health/nutrition/are-dogs-omnivores-or-carnivores
https://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/are-dogs-carnivores-heres-what-new-research-says
Dogs are omnivores according to the corporations that feed them and the vets who care for them, you liar.

>>16157471
Omnivore is a word that refers to animals that eat both plants and animals which is exactly what cows and dogs both do.

>>16157481
Then in no scenario where what you said could possibly be true since there is no case where nothing will die.

>>16157487
No, I'm a cattle farmer who spends my life around them.
We have dead rabbits, rats, mice and birds around the place but the cows never seem to show interest in their corpses. while various carrion birds and mammalian predators do.

You are literally pushing a narrative because you want to "own vegans" you aren't interested in reality.

They put their heads down and chomp their way through tonnes of grass every day, they will actively swarm areas populated with tastier grasses, if I put them on turnips they will actively run towards them.
Obviously they will consume some small animals or insects but they aren't going out of their way to do so.

>>16157494
>Obviously they will consume some small animals or insects
Then obviously they are omnivores, by definition.
> they aren't going out of their way to do so.
Which is why they are opportunistic omnivores instead of preferential omnivores.

>>16157494
This horse and the cow and other animals literally went out of their way to eat the smaller animals instead of the feed and grass that was nearby, you are completely full of iron deficient shit, vegantard.

>>16157500
>This horse and the cow
>>16155916

>>16157489
Animals all die, only DNA is immortal. Animals are just temporarily animated compost that the DNA rides around in

>>16157499
An omnivore can live on both meat and plants in exclusion their digestive systems permit them to break down and detoxify what they consume
A facultative animal can consume outside of its normal diet but it can't subsist on them.
A pig is an omnivore, quite a vicious one.
Cows are not omnivores even if they can consume some level of animal products.
As mentioned earlier they used to be fed a certain percentage of waste meat meal as a cheap quality protein source prior to the introduction of BSE restrictions.
But above a certain level their digestive system is unable to handle it.

The rumen is a fascinating device if you care about the truth of this topic why don't you do a course on it or go spend some time around them.

also something to consider is that mineral deficiencies can drive animals to consume certain things, I know deer will strip corpses seeking minerals, my cows seem to go and rough up earth from a specific corner of the field if they're deficient in something if the salt lick needs replacing.

It'll be summer soon why don't you go sit in a field or work on a farm and see for yourself what process goes into producing your food?

>>16157402
my friend, cows eat grass, not rodents and birds

>>16157506
Yes I agree, your scenario where nothing dies was complete bullshit that doesn't actually reflect reality.

>>16157487
also
>The opinion of a dog food company telling you to buy their grain loaded dogslop is a trustworthy source

>>16157514
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EpJamyuTJI
https://growlies.ca/blogs/news/facultative-carnivore

>>16157512
Wrong again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3NOhQlPGAU

>>16157511
I have already seen videos of them eating animals so I know that they do, whether you want to redefine omnivore so that omnivores are no longer omnivores and you personally get to dictate some standard whereby animals that eat whatever don't count because you say so, that is just your retardation and god complex rather than just sticking to the facts when the fact is that cows eat other animals.

>>16157514
Which is why I also included vets and even wikipedia and the american kennel club confirm that dogs are omnivores.
https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/do-dogs-need-meat-in-their-diets/
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_food

>>16157517
cow is suffering from a deficiency
it wants the bones not the meat
calcium supplements

>>16157538
Yes and it can get the supplemental calcium by eating other animals because it is an opportunistic omnivore.

>>16157513
That's not me numnuts
>plow up field to plant toxic beans
>everything dies that very day
or
>graze cows
>nothing dies (immediately)
>things continue to die at normal rate
what part of this went over your head

>>16157584
>nothing dies (immediately)
*except all the extra pests who get eaten by all the extra animals grazing in the field.

>>16155916
>if they have the opportunity to choose between eating plant and eating meat, they choose to eat meat every single time
Source?

>>16157963
He doesn't have one.it's a troll, I'm still not sure what its objective is but it shows up in all these threads posting those videos and getting angry if you disagree with his flawed concllusions.

>>16136943
Its plausible, but not meaningful because meat eaters eat plenty of plants too. Burgers, cake, bread, they eat everything. But lets get serious, the vegan eats more grain, which gets picked by combines and the process kills a lot of grasshoppers and field mice.
With meat it also happens, but less, as cows eat a combination of grass, hay, corn, onions.
Both diets will kill animals.
The point is that no one gives a fuck about grasshoppers and these field mice, well they never see it coming, they just die in a split second.
Vegans dont like the prolonged lifelong suffering of cattle, be it cows, pigs or chickens. Fish can be better as it also has a normal life right before its violent death, its not a death as fast as that of field mice though.
Technically speaking yes, more animals die on a vegan diet, because grasshoppers are animals, no one gives a fuck but its technically correct.

>>16158019
You miss the part where bugs live off the animal dung reinvigorating the foundation of the ecosystem

>>16158019
You get to the real issue here anon, however animals can be raised for meat responsibly.
The argument should be over what counts as a good life and how to buy meat from farmers who meat these standards instead of them being raised in a concrete box stuffed full of grain