I had this idea for a gun combat system that doesn’t have hit points instead it has injuries (broken bones, blood loss). What do you think of this idea? Is it dumb? How would you go about executing it?
Also I forgot to ask!What are your favorite realistic gun combat systems!!!
GURPShttps://shootingdiceblog.wordpress.com/2016/02/04/tactical-shootingmartial-arts-john-wick/
>>92586334A realistic gun combat system probably involves anyone who is hit with a bullet directly either being out of the fight entirely and needing immediate medical evac, or their insides being chunky salsa.
>>92586510i’m OK with that I’m looking for something rocket taggy where the interesting part is getting the first shot off and getting it on target.
>>92586429Watching a review on YouTube now
I’m looking in the groups now is there anywhere I could find the GURPS game?Also where can I find the modules. I’m not sure if I want to pay for all of them yet.
>>92586334You might be able to adapt Aces and Eights
>>92586365PCCS, it is actually playable
>>92586939Check the GURPS general and pay attention to the first image. Make sure to buy a few boxes of munchkin just to keep Steve Jackson Games afloat.
>>92586334Stage 1 of realistic gun combat is:"If you are shot, roll a death save."If this becomes too simple for you, then you move on to stage 2:>Cyberpunk 2020>Traveller or other Cepheus system based games - I looked at one called Hostile recently, it looked interesting. >GURPs>BRP (Chaosium's generic system)Stage 3 is homebrewing based on your own interest and preferences, mix and match from the systems you like best. As a general rule for any "realistic" gun combat is that you want to be able to kill a character in one shot under ideal conditions, but in no less than 2 shots in ordinary combat encounters; otherwise it becomes so lethal as to be counter productive to facilitate gun combat. If you die in one shot why risk a gunfight? I am running a fusion of BRP and MG Traveller 2e and enjoying that, but my players wished I liked it less lethal.There's also a mention to be made of systems that facilitate gun combat but isn't very realistic, like Cyberpunk Red, which isn't perfect but you can have exciting gunfights in it. There was a general for Cyberpunk and cyberpunk here, but I think it vanished, or I filtered it.
>>92586334Anon, the reason why injuries are a subsystem is because you end up with One Injury to Rule Them All that everyone opts to achieve at the expense of everything else. Hit points are perfectly serviceable for rocket tag gameplay, all you have to do is tweak the damage of guns or total health of players, but injuries either end up with them all being too close together (hitting arm is indifferent to hitting chest, which leads to secondary factors like blood loss spiking injury viability) to one being head and shoulders above the rest (headshots)
>>92590732Stage 4 is Phoenix Command.Stage 4 is universally terminal.
>>92586334I really think you should do it if you like it.I wouldn't do it personally, because I prefer my games on the fantastical side, but it's not dumb to any degree.If I were to execute this, I'd incorporate what I already do with hit-locations, defenses, and status timers to abstract things a little bit. I'd really need to put some thought into it to give you a more specific idea, but I'm just not into it.I apologize for being nohelp, but for what it's worth, you have my blessing.
>>92591063I'm sorry, but you have Stage 4 Phoenix Command. I'm afraid there is no cure, all we can offer you is to forcibly move it towards Stage 5... A real gun...
>>92590753This is actually pretty sensible help thank you.How far down do you think I should abstract it? Each limb having an HP bar like in dark heresy or go down even further:Instead of arm have shoulder, upper arm, lower arm, handWhat I was thinking is for certain areas there’s a chance you hit an artery which is an instant kill. For example the femoral artery is in the upper leg and that would be an instant kill.
>>92586510The problem with that is there's plenty of Medal of Honor citations that involve people being shot or catching shrapnel dozens of times and continuing to fight. Gunshot wounds are very all or nothing. Either you physically destroy something critical like a bone, nerve, or blood vessel that incapacitates the attacker, or you've done soft tissue damage that will matter in the long run but won't stop them from returning fire or stabbing you. So maybe instead of a damage roll with a range of possibilities, you have a coin flip damage "roll" that's either min or max.
>>92590670I have access, thank you so much for the resource. It’s a lot being thrown at me right now but I’m guessing I should be looking at tTactical Shooting.Is there an appreciable difference between GURPS third and fourth edition? Which one should I be looking at as a newbie?
>>92592717That’s what I was thinking about. You have hit locations and within each hit location there’s a chance to hit something viral or just do soft tissue damage.
>>92593100Tactical Shooting, then High Tech(or as it is known in almost every edition, 'The Gun Book') then Gun Fu for the more cinematic maneuvers like shooting a single piece of rope or having your suppressor work like in the movies.There's a difference but it's very easy to convert. I started with 4e, and I think its the best its ever been mostly because of how everything is streamlined without being oversimplified. It's not the best formatted core book in the world but once you get the hang of it, it's one of the best and deepest combat systems of any playable RPG. Different hit location, damage types and maneuvers mean that even simple encounters can be exciting and memorable. and most relevant to your interests, health is usually low and guns are lethalPicrel, .38 revolver does 2d6-1 damage, on a called shot to the vitals for a -3 to her skill, she'll do an extra x3 if she hits. 4 damage, multiplied to 12, assuming the guy has the base health of 10hp, he's well on his way to death, barring some lucky rolls.
>>92586334Honestly I would just do it in FATE. You're describing tiered stress/consequences which is a backbone of the system.
>>92593116To be honest, I wouldn't bother with hit locations, for two reasons. First, and this is based on a lot of anecdotes from /k/, when you catch a bullet it's not always clear exactly what happened. Sometimes people report a clear perception of being in pain in the particular area they were hit, and others report a limb just going numb/experiencing pain in the whole limb. Your PC just got shot? They need to take the time to figure out exactly where and how bad. Just mark down damage on the character sheet and sweat the details after the fact. Second, from a gameplay perspective it's way, way, way easier to just have a single HP pool that you subtract from. If you want to also track hit location broadly (arm, leg, chest, abdomen, head), go for it. Maybe even add a multiplier to damage for head and chest. But beyond that, let the damage roll tell you where you were hit. Leg, 1 damage? You caught a ricochet in the foot. Leg, 10 damage? You caught a bullet square in the femur. Sub locations and sub-sub locations are the path to phoenix command.
>>92586334The Original Tri-Tac games combat system (Fringeworthy, Stalking the Night Fantastic, FTL 2448) was pretty realistic, as is Phoenix Command from Leading Edge Games. The early editions (1st to 3rd) The Morrow Project rules had a system of damage and bleeding out. Aftermath from FGU had a good one too. The major problem of realistic combat rules is that they are slow. Really slow. You roll to see if you hit like every other system. Then where you hit if you did. Was there armor there? damage that goes through hits what? Anything vital? Now this is fine when it is a GM and 1 or 2 players and you are using the rules for PCs or Major NPCs getting hit , but if you have 4 or more players and don't use quick kills for mook NPCs one combat WILL take up half your gaming session. I tend to blend what I feel is the best of all those games but lean towards as few crunchy bits I can get away with. Cyberpunk 2020 was really good for reasonably speedy combat and lethality.
>>92593340Is there a FATE General here where I can get some of the resources from?
>>92595256I keep on seeing references the Phoenix Command it makes me want to play it. (you are reading this with horror right now) The reason why I wanted to do the sub locations is because I want to be able to see how long people are going to be out of action for after a gun fight. I’m envisioning it to lead into some injury system that affects you more outside of combat versus just something that slows you down in combat.Thanks for the /k/ insights. These are good the kind of deets I’m looking for.
>>92595268I am absolutely not looking for anything speedy. This sounds exactly like my kind of crunch. Do you have a starting place that I could look at for these resources? They seem like big systems, and I’m a little overwhelmed. Which core book should I get a hold of first?
>>92595475Phoenix command is just a million lookup tables. If someone took the time to automate it I don't think it would be nearly as infamous. But assuming you're >>92595504 then you might actually like it. It might even have the sort of recovery rules you want. I can't say I've read it thoroughly enough to know for sure.
>>92586334>Realistic systemDumb and unfun.>Instead of meat points, injuriesCould be good on its own.
>>92586334Game is already out there
>>92586334I would execute it my taking it out back to the yard and giving it some hands-on experience with what the receiving end of their obsession looks like
>>92586334You could look into Song of Swords. It's meant to be an autistic HEMA simulator, but it also has rules for guns, and the wound system is based on a scale of 0-5 with pain, shock, and bleeding. Each matters differently, and each will kill you. It's very rocket tag-y.
>>92595822This shits price makes GW look like Victrix
I like Cyberpunk 2020 for shootouts. It's nice and lethal.
>>92595922300 ish dollars for the complete game including all extras seems cheap compare to GW
>>92595995>compared to GeeDubsShill anon you are fucking retarded, everything is less expensive compared to them, that does not make your shitty rule set (which no one has seen fit to discuss for some reason) and minis a good investment.
>>92595759I am both of those anons. Phoenix Command is on my radar now.I just read a glowing review on plebbit. I’m definitely interested. Is it one of the games where you have to have all the supplements or can I just get the core book? Also where can I find the core book?
>>92596238Check out the sharethread. Don't be a retard and it's fairly straight forward. I think that's where I got Phoenix Command.
>>92595995Are the rules any good ? Figure I could just get the rule book and use ultra modern minis from Empress or something.
>>92596254Thanks G
>>92591063I have all the modulesIts probably for the best that i never played a scenario or campaign
>>92595423Not him but the FATE core rules are free
>>92597387Can you share them? I made a request in the share thread but nobody’s gotten to it yet.
I recall a game called Millennium's End which went quite in depth, aimed for 'realism', tried to have different types of damage, ie impact, hydrostatic shock (gunshots), that sort of thing. It didn't use hit points, but I think you had to take a, well, let's call it a saving throw on taking damage to avoid going into shock, and any 'damage' was applied to a location as a (cumulative) penalty to any skills performed with that location. I think once you hit a certain level of modifiers that area was out of action, and you had a good chance of following it. There was also a supplement, "Ultramodern Firearms" which at least sounded vaguely informed to a young Brit.Bear in mind I'm trying to remember an occasional system from FAR too long ago. I recall having good games but it was a bit of a faff at times. We probably winged it a lot more than I can recall just now.
>>92586334Nah, it's fine.>>92586365Palladium when you implement the modern weapons compendium rules.
>>92586334Rather than modelling injuries, you should track position and suppression. Firearms shouldn't meaningfully differ by terminal effect, because people die when you kill them be it with an MP5 or a M2B. Those firearms should differ by capability: can they fire fast to suppress, can they defeat cover, do they shoot fire or explosives, are they light and nimble in phone booth sized spaces, can they be smuggled into X location or not, etc.A system with diminishing luck/stamina/tactical position in a pool is going to be more realistic than almost any injury system because it puts the modelling on the important part of the process instead of the visceral one. Such a system will probably be more fun to play, too.
>>92591063>>92591561>>92595268>>92595475>>92595759>>92596238>>92596254The problem with Phoenix Command is that it’s not a fully featured roleplaying system on its own, it’s a heavily detailed combat system meant to be slotted into another system of your liking. Might sound weird but it was pretty common at the time, there where a ton of systems that started their lives as alternative combat systems to D&D. The other games by Leading Edge like the Aliens RPG, Living Steel, the Lawnmower Man RPG etc used a simplified Phoenix Command as a base to make an actual proper system in its own right so maybe check those out too.
>>92591962>Each limb having an HP bar like in dark heresyYou ever play low-difficulty Fallout? At that level, you have to go out of your way to cripple an enemy’s limb, and that just leaves them at low health instead of outright killing them. It becomes something like “if you cripple them, that’s well and good but you should’ve killed them”, hence the problem with individual health totals. Inversely, if it becomes TOO easy to cripple than kill, you get an arms race of people bashing the shit out of each other’s limbs instead of going for the kill, which is just silly. Also healing stuff would become a bitch if you have to manage all of those health totals>Instead of arm have shoulder, upper arm, lower arm, handWanna keep the number down so there isn’t that many spots to remember>What I was thinking is for certain areas there’s a chance you hit an artery which is an instant kill. For example the femoral artery is in the upper leg and that would be an instant kill.Hmmm. I have a bit of an idea, requires some fantasy finagling to avoid the previous “injury to rule them all” problem but it’ll do. Continued.
>>92599602>the systemTwo areas for each limb and torso, one for head. First area has a chance of lethal but higher chance of a miss. Second area has no chance of killing instantly, but higher chance of hitting and can inflict injuries instead. Area Miss where you still manage to hit the guy but in a different area from the one you targeted AND at penalty to hit chance. Greater penalty to hit chance if the new area is a First Area. Added second penalty to injury chance if secondary area. Small HP count for stuff like bleeding or cumulative damage. >BenefitBalances out instant death with injury penalties, as injury penalties aren’t in the same range as instant death but they either add up to death quickly or make it easier to land an instant death shot. >acceptable break from realityIf we were to portray hit, injury, and instant death chance properly then torso shots would be the only shots made. It’s home to four of the five vital organs in the body (liver, kidneys, lungs, heart), home to the main nexus of arteries, and houses the spinal column. As such, centre of mass is the single greatest target for shooting as it just holds so many important parts of the body in it. There’s a reason why modern body armour is worn as a vest and helmet.>supplementAlso if you wanna balance different guns around the system (as guns with faster firing rates could theoretically have better chances of killing than others by rapidly inflicting instant death checks), I’ve got two solutions1. Give single shot weapons higher chance of instant death and/or more severe injuries.2. Perception check bonuses for noticing bigger guns so pistols still have benefits over them.Keeps the realism angle, y’know?
Bump
>>92598981This is what I am leaning towards. I like the system of half second impulses and action points. It puts allot of importance on getting the first shot off and being precise.I'm still having trouble finding the Phoenix Command Book, I'm basing this on a reddit description of the system and the Phoenix Command Website.I wish i had a list of the Phoenix Command actions and their AP cost so i could steal it and modify it.
>>92586334I know some guys were working on a tactical skirmish/RPG at one point (it got canned) but the gist of their system was:>It's more than 'hit or miss', it's 'precision of the hit' by measures of success (multiple dice success vs. fail)>The more precise the hit, the more likely it is to hit where it's most likely to neutralize the target>Armor doesn't 'save' like a deflection, it reduces the lethality of the hit but keeps you from being a casualty outright by 'soaking' some of the attack>Being hit and taking a 'wound' in any way doesn't always outright kill you, and even after a lethal hit the target can still be alive, conscious, and able to do some things (snap off a few shots with a pistol for a round or two)>System incentivized 'medic' roles by making them essential to provide life-saving skills and keep the character from dying, though that character is still effectively a 'casualty' for the rest of the game- and must be carried away by his buddies to recover for any follow-on games.>War crimes would totally be a thing, were investigated, and could damage your unit/team's successes
>>92602074Witch Doctors and War Crimes? Because I remember the first threads, and it was (deliberately) much less of a cohesive system than that.
>>92599627I really like these ideas. I'm guessing the upper limbs should have the vital hits and the lower limbs should be crippling because these is less fat. Although in real life they do basically only teach you to shoot for the center of mass. When people get it in the limbs its usually the result of a missed shot on center mass and that is the thing I am trying to figure out, not to give people reasons to target the limbs.I like the ideas about balancing single shot and rapid fire and pistols and rifles. Pistols are still situational weapons. You would never choose on over a rifle if you can get away with it so pistol use in my estimation is going to be more context dependent.The vibe I'm going for is this:Battle with no body armor and pistol vs mooks no body armor and pistol is very dangerous.Battle with body armor and long gun vs mooks no body armor and pistol is much less dangerous.
>>92586365Kinda reminds me of RECON
>>92602534How does recon do damage to the PCs? I remember the attack roll assumes you're shooting blindly into jungle foliage and on a 10+ on 2d6 after the firefight you find a casualty.
>>92602320Nah, this was something more 'tacticool' sounding- but it was one of those many projects that was being done by an 'established publisher'... ... and it also needed to be Kickstarted for some reason. I mean, sure, I guess- but even when it was going to be 'digital only'- they still needed Kickstarter donations for a game that was supposedly 'in the final draft phase'.Then the developers got the bright idea to try and make the game appeal to everyone... and sought out 'people with extensive tabletop game experience' to assist with playtesting and feedback on the draft rules, and everyone with an IQ above room temperature learned a few important lessons that day:>Playing only warhammer 40k for 15 years isn't 'extensive tabletop gaming experience'>If Warhammer 40k and other GW games is your only tabletop gaming experience, you know jack shit about tabletop gaming>Any feedback at all from people who only play 40k is going to amount to basically 'make it like 40k'>Things don't need to be made for everyone, especially when a good chunk of everyone is a fucking idiot that won't be buying the game anyway>If you're going to seek out Veterans and Active Duty service members from feedback, you should probably listen to guys with actual combat experience in combat jobs instead of some Air Force chick or Navy faggot that touched a rifle one time and spent 2 years working as a clerk before getting discharged for being fat>If you're going to ask for Veteran feedback in the product, and cite them for their contributions- then you probably shouldn't have a gigantic anti-military screed claiming that war is pointless and the world needs fewer soldiers on the first goddamned page, just above their names.>Don't hire Tumblr artists, because every 'Elite Commando Operative' is gonna look like some CalArts shit and be 'ethnically vague brown', overweight, and wearing LGBT shoulder flags
>>92596167>https://www.amazon.com/Black-Powder-Earth%C2%AE-28mm-Core/dp/B09KN45SDB/lol, don't buy the boxset
>>92602854That game's shit. It's probably one of the absolute worst games I've ever played, and the price tag is comically ridiculous. The graphic novels it's based on? Fantastic- but that game is ass. I'd recommend Spectre Operations or even Osprey's Black Ops over that any day of the week.
>>92602704The retardation of people on kickstarter will never cease to astound me.
>>92602918Yeah, and I play 40k/Kill Team/Necromunda... but I play other games.If your only 'tabletop wargaming experience' is with GW games and you sell yourself as knowledgeable......it's like trying to sell sex advice, but the only chick you've been with was the local fat whore, and you were in line behind a dozen other dudes.
>>92602589It uses a points system, like most fantasy games, which makes survival easier then a game like 'Behind Enemy Lines' (which uses a wound/injury system like OP asked about). That being said, RECON is still highly lethal.
How many action points does pulling a trigger take in Phoenix Command?
>>92603525Behind Enemy Lines uses the same wound system that the 15mm Traveller wargame used. I would say it's still too abstract for what OP is after. It's just light/moderate/severe wound, which just seems like a formalization of what I suggest here >>92595256
>>92602507> that is the thing I am trying to figure out, not to give people reasons to target the limbs.Ah. >Minor tweakCenter mass shooting has two area system as normal, higher death chance than limbs but higher chance of on-target missing than limbs
>>92586334>>92586365>favDelta green>realisticDunno. Honestly I'm not sure if I'm interested in a realistic gun combat system. As >>92592717 points out, sometimes people get shot once and they die and sometimes it barely allows them down. Delta green approximates within with the lethality rule (every gun has a percentage chance to instantly kill a person on hit and it scales up with bigger guns) but I don't think I want to play a game that attempts to realistically model it. That's just phoenix command, a game that despite doing things like modelling internal bullet ricochet off your ribcage still doesn't manage to find the space to model everything it wants to and grenade launcher shots can only whiff up or down and not side to side. I don't need realism, personally, just the illusion of authenticity.
>>92586334>doesn’t have hit points instead it has injuries (broken bones, blood loss)Cyberpunk 2020>>92586510>probably involves anyone who is hit with a bullet directly either being out of the fight entirely and needing immediate medical evacAlso Cyberpunk 2020>>92586365>favorite realistic gun combat systemsCyberpunk 2020.Not Red! Red has a hit point system and I really can't fathom why Mike decided to not just try to improve on perfection, but also straight flush perfection down the toilets to replace it with boring slop
>>92586334One of my homebrew systems has something similar. Aim for torso, head or a limb, roll to hit (chance of hitting a part you didn't aim for). On a hit instead of rolling for "damage" you roll on a table for that bodypart which includes various bones muscles and organs that can get hit and what the effects are.
>>92598900This sounds like a good idea. Making the crunch about tactical positioning rather than a slugfest.
>>92604733Hmm, I'm sure there are games that do limb/wound damage in detail. RIFTS has a limb damage chart, but every gun in RIFTS is also a rocket launcher. Even SCP RPG has a damage chart for different damage type/anomaly. I don't know any game that specializes in such a highly detailed damage table, but I wouldn't be surprised if it exists.
>>92602074That's also exactly the way wounds and armour works in Cyberpunk 2020
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