>>92581292
Book of Vile Darkness version.

>>92581311
Fiendish Codex I - Hordes of the Abyss version. The Mutterer and Transformer roles appear to be unique.

>>92581389
There's also the Fiend of Possession prestige class in Fiend Folio on page 204 and Eberron Campaign Setting on page 100.

The former has two major distinctions, in that they fully turn Ethereal instead of leaving a vulnerable body and they run on Enhancement equivalent instead of GP value.

The latter is noteworthy for having Celestial Channeling right next to it, which is otherwise only in Book of Exalted Deeds to my recollection.

>>92556771
Cleric X/Prestige Paladin 2/Bone Knight X
Paladin buffs are stronger at lower levels than the cleric equivalent, powerful mounts that get your buffs.
Battle Blessing with mount movement means you move faster, kill hard, have the entirety of the cleric caster list.
So strong, I'll never do it again.
Sprinkle in Ordained Champion if you want.

>>92584595
>Have any o you ever used any of the mass combat warfare systems for 3.x?
What I used was the guild rules in... either PHBII or DMGII, I can never remember which unless the book's open in front of me.

For BIG battles, though, I used a combination of mob rules from the City environment book adjusted by the warfare units from the Miniature Handbook. Otherwise, I just took Heroes of Battle's advice and let the war be a backdrop.

bump

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>>92584595
Please do us a favor and tag these generals, it'll help people who want them to find them, and it'll make it easier for those of us who aren't interested to filter them automatically out of the catalogue. Thank you!

>>92589573
Yeah I forgot again. What are you using to make your filters break if the tag isn't in the title? Mine still pick it up fine, both on the website directly and in Kuroba.

>>92589812
I think the issue is using something normally ONLY in the title like /3.5g/

>>92589855
Well, people sometimes (often) forget to add a title like I did here, and 4chan doesn't remind you before posting it. If he chooses to only filter through title, his filters will miss a lot of what he wanted to filter.

>>92589855
Like, yeah, I'll try to remember to add the title line in the future sure, but I haven't been omitting it on purpose.

>>92584595
>Have any of you ever used any of the mass combat warfare systems for 3.x?
Every time I've tried I've had to preroll everything and adjust for player action afterwards because none of the early groups (when I would've used published 3.5 systems) wanted to take on commander roles. If none of the players are into historical wargaming, I just treat the war and battles as a set piece by mixing in troops into random encounter tables. Currently, I'm looking at ACKS 2e's war mechanics for any future needs since I'm already using a lot of the economy subsystems.

>>92591616
>economy subsystems
Oh? Like what? I was digging through the ACKS construction stuff the other day and ultimately just decided to use the more detailed ones in Strongholds & Dynasties.

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>Makes martials fun
>Classes are never translated into another game
Unappreciated beauty

>>92592489
Market size and equipment scarcity as an immediate baseline from which I can add the other systems as needed. There are adjustments that have to be made since ACKS and 3.5 pricing diverges a bit (+1 weapon base is 2k gp in 3.5 and 5k in ACKS, for example). Once I can settle on a conversion rate, I can just drop all the other subsystems in without breaking (too many) things. Aribtrage trading threatens to be something of a Pandora's Box if I introduce it too early, so right now I'm just tying Appraise (plus a few other social skills) to market size and item scarcity to see how things turn out.

>>92592559
What are you talking about, 4e was an entire edition

>>92593079
ToB doesn't really have Dailies or Utilities, and calling stances "at-will power" analogues is a stretch.

>>92593385
I'm mostly talking shit but most of my ire comes from the reliance on encounter powers and other "gamey" elements that aren't well-defined in 3.5. I don't even necessarily disagree with them on a mechanical level but it doesn't really gel with anything else the game is doing which is why the reaction to weeaboo fightan magic is so routinely divisive.

>>92584595
>Have any o you ever used any of the mass combat warfare systems for 3.x?
I'm about to, I'm starting a war-based gestalt campaign soon, where half the gestalt has to be dedicated to augmenting the character's personal army. Marshal levels, White Raven maneuvers, mass buffs, etc.

>>92590030
I just filter for 3.5. It means I get some threads I don't care for, but it means I don't sweat it if there's no title.

>>92592559
Yes. But I prefer the ToB prototype that is psychic warriors.

>>92593385
Maneuvers and 4e abilities were both available on cards, my dude. Maneuvers are per-encounter abilities with a refresh mechanic, 4e took that idea and expanded on it. It doesn't have to be a 1:1copy for 4e to be based largely on ToB, because it absolutely was, the same way ToB was based on psychic warriors.

>>92592559
I don't object to martials having more varied gameplay, or supernatural abilities, but I do hate encounter powers. But then, I thought the daily powers were a low point of 3e in the PHB, and I like the UA spell levels variant a good deal more than slots. I'd steal the individual powers for some mechanic I liked better though.

>>92594225
I filter for dndtools on the website, because its in every OP and not in other threads, and on kuroba I search for 3.5 and then pin the thread, and in either case whether there's a title doesn't affected me. I hadn't even realize I had forgotten the title the last few threads I made until the guy pointed it out.

>>92594217
Which mass combat system do you intend to use? The Mongoose one, the Monte Cook one, or the Pathfinder one?

I'd be interested in heating how it goes.

>>92584595
If I'm running a game where the main thing is wilderness exploration, should I consider re-splitting survival from intuit direction, since as mentioned last thread, survival is kind of already a super-skill with low DCs? Should I be recalibrating the DCs?

>>92592804
Huh. I'll have to check that bit out. Might be worth bolting on. I do plan to have them helping manage an expedition settlement (which will turn into a colony), and if they want to I'll let them take it over or establish another one all their own. I was thinking imported goods from the homeland will have a 50% markup (some kind of planar travel, not ships, but should be somewhat slow and dangerous).

>>92596293
I try to avoid Cook as a matter of habit, so probably the PF one.

>>92596770
>I try to avoid Cook as a matter of habit
?

>>92596941
I'm not a fan of some of his work.

>>92596770
The one in Mongoose Games Designer Companion was a revised version. I think the original showed up in Strongholds & Dynasties. I would imagine the one in d20 Conan was a variation on the same, since it was the same people and still a 3.x d20 system. So it might be worth considering, since it got several revisions.

On the other hand, the Pathfinder one has those expansion booklets by legendary games, and the or blurbs at the beginning talk about how thy determined what it needed based on experience playing the basic PF one.

So, I don't know which is the better one, or how cross a compatible (or not) they are. Once you try it though, it would be good to hear how it went.

>>92597693
Fair. That's how I feel about Bulmahn. Occasionally something good, but also a lot of garbage design.

>>92593500
The entire Binders book came out, and monks were a thing from the start.
The actual issue was martials doing things not out of place in any kung-fu movie without being explicitly magical or being gatekept behind items.
Guess which (((groups))) that means?

>>92596338
I do not think there is a big need, since only a handful of classes get survival as a viable skill to push, DMs are encouraged to add circumstantial bonuses to the DC of any check, and most importantly, the stuff that really enables the party to survive as a group requires consistently high rolls, especially if you are talking about environmental hazards of any sort.
Covering a party of 4, with their 2-6 mounts, in order to survive a blizzard EVERY DAY is nerve wracking.
>t. someone who desperately tried to keep the party caravan alive so we get to a cave to hunker down

>>92597693
Which one in particular if you don't mind to share?

>>92599356
>binders book
Is it full of encounter powers too? I've never read it or been at a table where it was used.
>monk
Ran on a basic mana pool type mechanic. Ki points as a base mechanic would have made ToB much more palatable. One combining ki points and a Shadowrun strain like mechanic even better (I think the Buffy magic system ran on something like that).

>which groups hate martials having wuxia powers
E6 players & the same people who bitch about wizards bypassing combat. Plus people who hate wuxia / anime and wish they were playing a more realistic game more about medieval europe. IE: the people who make me wonder why they're not playing in a historical Mythras game instead.

>inb4 muh uh its casters.
I've never seen this forced meme actually happen and at this point I'm convinced its a spook invented by encounter power lovers.

>>92599832
>interpret the post wrong and get mad over their invention
I compared an entirely new sub-system created in 3.5, and a built in 'superhuman' class from the core books, and the meme about casters bypassing combat at low levels remains a meme. Casters become problematical at levels 7+, and this depends on just how optimized they are.
>wish they were playing a more realistic game more about medieval europe
I have never seen this outside of online strawman arguments, as no edition or setting of D&D, with the possible exception of Dragonlance, tries to model medieval Europe to any realistic degree, outside of being a part of the gonzo mix. It is just as valid as the people who scream about the joos or the trannies taking their games from them.
>I've never seen this forced meme actually happen
It was the core of the complaints about 4e FR changes, and you can likely still find those arguments on forums to this day if you trawl long enough, just like the 'muh realism' arguments that are selectively applied.

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>>92599372
>consistently high rolls.
Didn't the DCs cap out around 25? Someone who makes a bit of an effort could take10 on most of those by level 2, succeed on a 5+ by level 5, with complete autosuccess (+25) by lv8, no? I suppose less if you are banning skill boosting items, but that's just a different nerf.

>struggling to help a caravan survive a blizzard.
That sounds like it should be difficult. What level were you?

>>92599903
4e casters being more or less replaced with shitty ToB knockoffs, is a different complaint than "we object to martials having access to magic".

>online strawman.
Its the only one I've encountered in real life besides my "fuck encounter powers, daily powers were bad enough" attitude of wanting more simulationist in character resources than 3e typically has, and saw 4e and ToB's design as further regression from the kind of game we want to play.

>casters become problematic at 7+.
Casters start getting fun at 7+. They start being problematic around 15.

t. Casterfag who is usually GMing.

>>92599903
What did I interpret wrong?

>>92599904
>Didn't the DCs cap out around 25?
Static DCs if you were doing shit for yourself alone, yes.
Each additional person were trying to cover added +2 to +5 to the roll (DM called that since the mounts were large sized, I needed to get at least 5 over the DC). So you are talking about DCs that were effectively, routinely 30+, upwards to 40, EVERY HOUR.
>What level were you?
7-8. I was rolling something like +18 to my survival checks, but when it got bad, I needed Aid checks, circumstance bonuses from whatever outrageous nonsense I could kludge up, and prayer.
Thinking on it, it was basically the scene in LotR when the fellowship is trying to cross Carahdras, complete with strong dudes and horses pushing threw the snow, the gnome falling in to a snowbank and being straight up lost for almost an hour, and the horses almost falling in to a ravine that was covered in snow.
It was fucking phenomenal when we found the cave to warm up in, like your first bust after NNN, but I never want to do it again (just like NNN).

>>92599903
>selectively applied 'muh realism'
Preparing spells to spell slots is an associative mechanic. Its spelled out and explained d&d metaphysics. Unlike rages per day or encounter powers, where there is no such justification.

>mad about their invention.
I am indeed tired of this particular finger pointing bad faith argument after almost 20 years. Your followup post >>92599903 seems to be more of the same. Pretty sure I didn't misinterpret you.

"Nobody dislikes the specific game design of ToB, except for casterfags who want martials to suck"
Seems to be the position you're tiptoeing around without explicitly stating it, and it's just as much of a spook as "the only possible reason people didn't watch the all female ghost busters movie in theatres was because theyre mysoginists."

>>92599978
>DC30+ every hour
Oh. That would make it much more difficult. Okay.
+18
That sounds like you didn't have gear giving you a bonus, right? No Mwk tool bonus (which - admittedly became more consistently available in PF1), or item competence bonus items?

>>92600015
Misogynists*

>>92600068
No, I had gear helping me out.
What I discovered is that a lot of items that give bonuses to Survival checks are also VERY situational.
I had a fishing rod and animal call, for example. Not gonna give me a bonus for not freezing to death.
I did have spare blankets, torches, oil (gone almost immediately), stew. I can't remember how much bullshit I managed, but it was a lot. Even a +1 to the roll was mana from heaven.

>>92600143
Forgot to say...
>>92600015
>>92600076
I've made that spelling error before!

>>92600143
>Situational gear.
Yeah, no generic "+2 to any one skill" masterwork tool in 3.5. Fair. But I meant more "no +x to survival magic item".

>>92600295
No, no, I mean there are a shitton of items in the books that give you a bonus to the Survival skill, but only in certain uses of the skill, like finding food, tracking, looking for certain plants, stuff like that.
There are not a lot of items that are explicitly 'survive a goddamn blizzard' items.
>come to think of it, I can't even think of magic items that just give flat bonuses to survival

>>92600341
Oh. Huh. Yeah I figured there would be a third eye or crystal mask for it or similar if nothing else, since there's one to grant a +10 to most skills, but you're right, there doesn't seem to be one for survival, looks like your DM would need to be extrapolating that there are third eyes or crystal masks for the other skills for that to be available, and I know some DMs don't use the item formulas, only prepublished items.

>>92600015
>Preparing spells to spell slots is an associative mechanic. Its spelled out and explained d&d metaphysics.
With extensive butchering in 3e with the removal of slot-by-slot preparation increasing in time with spell level as the default, and no justification for why Spontaneous spellcasters were beholden to the same usage limit when the entire reason for said limit is thrown out the window by the alteration.

>>92600015
>Unlike rages per day or encounter powers, where there is no such justification.
Nobody gave a shit about Rages per day or the wire-fu Monk in the TSR days to remotely close to the hostility against Tome of Battle, the skill checks and basic hit point progression create laughable blowouts, and the feat access specifies it as Ki like the Monk's more flagrant violations of common sense.

Fact of the matter is that D&D 3.X has never had good ludonarrative resonance, never been particularly simulationist, has been infested with arbitrary mechanics from day one, and Tome of Battle is LESS egregious on each of these points than the 3e core rulebooks.

>>92600576
>removal of slot by slot prep
Yeah, NGL I want that back.

>no justification for spontaneous casters having the same limits.
Fair criticism. I'd see that swapped for UA style spell levels.

>never had good ludonarrative resonance.
It certainly could have been better. Its an area that 3e was a big step backward from AD&D.

>ToB is LESS egregious than core.
There I am not convinced. I agree with your complaints about core, and see them as some of the bigger low-points *of* core.

>feat access specifies it as ki based
I meant having them not be encounter powers and having them run on ki points or a basic stamina pool or a strain subsystem (same thing I would see done with rages per day and bardsongs and all the x/day powers). What I would want for a ludonarrative justification of encounter powers if I were to add them in to my games, is an in-world explanation why they work how they do, that either applies universally without sounding retarded (like prepping spell slots) or individual ones for each power.

You haven't thus far explained how encounter powers are not worse than what I agree are the most obnoxious and irritating parts of the PHB.

>>92600697
>You haven't thus far explained how encounter powers are not worse than what I agree are the most obnoxious and irritating parts of the PHB.
You haven't thus far explained why "significantly above the worst of core" isn't good enough. There doesn't NEED to be an autistic explanation of why it is the way it is in-universe, because none of the other subsystems INSIDE THE EDITION did.

Tome of Battle isn't mundane, it's Monk+, and nobody complains about all the flagrant violations of common sense THERE. And (Ex) does not mean mundane, it's the heading for the Hellcat being Invisible in any lighting sufficient for humans to see, yet glowing in darker surroundings. They're explicitly allowed to break physics and are not something "just anyone" can do.

>>92600802 pt1.
>significantly above the worst of core.
No no. Significantly *below* the worst of core. Encounter powers are more ludonarratively dissonant than daily powers, rubbing the bullshit boardgaminess of their lazy game design in your face more often.

>none of the other subsystems inside the edition justify themselves narratively.
Then they had better be ludonarratively resonant without further justification, or I won't use them either. (Less of a problem for 3.0 sources, more common an issue for late 3.5). Luck points, skill trick powers, factotum - 3.5 has a lot of junk game design I don't use, but encounter powers (ToB, skill tricks, factotum) are near the bottom, only better than luck points.

>Ex isn't mundane
Irrelevant? I care about ludonarrative resonance, not mundane v supernatural.

But you're right about one thing. If magic was as gibberish as luck points and encounter powers, I wouldn't like 3e's magic system either. Even without the in depth explanation from AD&D though it's still clear that's how thy work. It's also pretty clear that's how they work in the novels.

>>92600802 pt2.
3e was a downgrade in class feature / subsystem design, domains are inferior spheres, and monster ecology omission was stupid, but 3e was an upgrade in character customisation, magic item pricing, skill mechanics, putting skills in monster stat blocks, and playable monsters (character customisation), as well as great third party content.

3e is a pretty diverse system, and you're welcome to like the shit I don't, but "the system is full of other pieces of game design you either dislike enough to ban (late 3.5 shit in particular) or only begrudgingly tolerate (nonsensical bits in core I haven't yet houseruled out), so you have to like this one I like" is not a compelling argument.

I choose 3.x over AD&D because when I cherrypick the good stuff, I net a better (and similarly if not better ludonarratively resonant) game for 2e-type settings. Especially when I also cherrypick from other publishers, and other peoples select online rewrites.

If I were to have to run a 3e game *without* houserules or good compatible parts from other publishers or converted stuff from AD&D, it would be mostly using 3.5 core with a handful of 3.0 books, UA for variant rules that improve things a bit, a couple 3.5 FR books, and maybe XPH. Maybe Savage Species for the rituals at the back. But it would be a much worse game, after throwing out the good stuff that Wizards didn't publish.

>inb4 see! Shitty Martials!
The options I like for better 3.X martials come from other publishers. Whether it's the PF1 ranger's overall effectiveness + utility magic, or Eclipse martial arts. Though, I'd use ToB maneuvers as inspiration for additional techniques for martial-magic to use in a different subsystem. But the ToB resource system would go in the bin.

>>92600802 Summary.
Or, in short: if I'm evaluating the quality of a TTRPG mechanic for inclusion in a campaign I'm running, these are the criteria:
>Ludonarrative resonance;
>Setting Appropriateness;
>Mechanical / Tactical / Playstyle interest / variety;
>Game Balance;
>Narrative interest;
In that order of priority. The parts of 3e that are nonsensical bullshit, are the parts I either don't add to the whitelist, or I houserule them to fix them before including, and they're not included as-printed.

>>92602219
NTA, but I have to disagree regarding encounter vs daily abilities. Daily abilities on a non-magic class are impossible to justify, that's why I always make Smite Evil a per-encounter ability but leave the same number of uses, let paladins enjoy their class abilities, it's compensation for the roleplay limitations. Rage I leave alone, it feels like removing class features to make it once per encounter and not replace the per-day increases with something else. Dailies on non-magic characters was hands down what I hated most about 4e, a martial character's strength should be their endurance, they don't reach the same highs as casters but don't need to ration their abilities.

I tried AD&D, the book is a MESS to read, you have to have a notebook handy just to compile everything you need to know for your class into one orderly package that actually SAYS what you can do, and what changes when you level up. I prefer 3.5 because of the insane wealth of material, and how easy it is to make any type of character you might want.

>>92600162
Yeah, it wasn't until I looked at it and thought 'that looks wrong' and tried it the other way before I realised it was an error, but by then I had already hit post. Whoops.

>>92602219
ToB and Factotum and whatnot aren't ludonarratively dissonant the way 4E encounter powers can be if taken at face value, though.

>>92602873
>Daily abilities are impossible to justify on a non-magic class.
They are, but the arbitrariness of encounter powers seems equally impossible to justify to me, but more frequently shoved in your face. I dunno. I don't like either one, unless we're talking about daily charges in a magic item or a mobster's refilling venom gland.

Rage and Smite and Bardsong, I'd prefer to have them all run on ki points like the PF1 monk (or psi points), call them out as extraordinary abilities that aren't wiped out by anti magic, and if you multi class, let them all share a single 'stamina' pool sort of thing you refill by resting / meditating, & kill the idea that every ability has a different resource to track uses, or are unlimited use. (While I like pf1 monk a lot better than 3.5 monk, both are shit classes, and I'm inclined to toss them both and use snippets from them to make a better Youxia martial artist class.) I could see short term stamina as a resource that refills after a few minutes of rest, but it would be again a shared resource. Maybe you could deliberately overexert yourself but risk injury. That would feel pretty athletics-y. Maybe you could also risk injury if you don't stretch and warm up first.

Strip it down to a couple different resource mechanics. AD&D-ish Spell slots for prepared casters, spell levels (maybe use psionics points for sorcerers and bards with that conversion doc.) Some kind of chi points if they're not rolled into psionics (recharge by rest / meditation any time). And maybe a faster recharging physical stamina mechanic. Then have everything use those few resource mechanics, & junk the rest.

2e's a bit less of a mess to figure out than 1e, but yes, I agree, 3e's massive library and far less rigid character design are the big reasons I'm not just playing 2e, and instead am cherry picking from and house ruling 3e.

>>92602910
Granted, 4e did it worse. With ToB my problem us the fact that they're running as encounter powers, not the ability writeups themselves. I'd plug them into another framework and allow them as martial arts techniques. I've been thinking about doing that in my next game, actually. Might include them on scrolls or technique manuals that any martial can find, and then practice and learn if they meet prereqs (I haven't ironed it out yet, I've been working on other topics first). I think finding martial arts manuals as loot could be fun though. Whereas with 4e the abilities themselves are also slop.

>>92603173
>mobster's refilling venom gland
Kek. Yuanti Capone.

>>92603247
>With ToB my problem us the fact that they're running as encounter powers
Which isn't ludonarratively dissonant. Ki's function in D&D 3E is arbitrary. Then you've got the Crusader, who has no dissonance at all and has the mechanic explained.

>>92603740
I don't like 3e monk, either, for similar reasons. Pf1 monk is less revolting, but still pretty shit. So "but monk! " isn't compelling, because fuck monk too.

>Crusader actually makes sense in-world
Does it? Its been a long time. I'll give it a reread tonight when I'm at my PC.

>individual encounter powers aren't inherently ludonarratively dissonant.
The fact that they're each 1/encounter is inherently dissonant. Why can't I do this one again but the others are fine?
>inb4 someone saw me do it?
What if the ones who saw me do it are dead and these are reinforcements who arrived after?
What if some get away and I fight them again? They've seen me do it before, so why does it work in the rematch?
I want the answers to these questions to make sense, and not contradict the game mechanics. In my experience that's not the case.

>>92603843
Crusader's maneuvers are described as flashes of divine inspiration, which is also why they don't have access over which maneuvers are granted to them.

>>92603843
>Why can't I do this one again but the others are fine?
Ki is a pretty straightforward explanation and there's nothing in D&D saying that's not how ki works because it doesn't have a hard definition of its capabilities. It's different in 4E when the explanation is intentionally vague without a single strong explanation to lean on and in ToB it's left up into the air as to exactly what it is, but ki is used as a potential explanation there and works in a straightforward manner to explain it.

>>92603975
>Ki is a straightforward explanation.
How?
>Ki doesn't have a hard definition.
In which case that has me looking to qigong and meridians and wuxia and tai chi and the yellow emperor's classic for an explanation, because words mean things. I've never seen a qi practising martial artist (in fiction or an interviewed tai chi practitioner who believes in qi / meridians) ever describe only being able to use a qi technique once every couple minutes. Its not a trope in wuxia fiction either

Qi/ki/chi is not some undefined thing. Its an extensively documented pseudoscience and set of superstitions.

>>92603913
I did not recall that. I'll have to give it another read.

>>92604295
D&D ki is not the same thing as ki elsewhere. That argument would work against Vancian magic too because it doesn't resemble mythological magic at all - and was intentionally designed that way.

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>>92604308

>>92604347
D&D ki should be the same as ki elsewhere specifically because it is a mostly undefined use of a well defined real-word term.

As opposed to 'magic' which, there are many different magic systems from real life, so if someone just says 'magic' it's nonspecific until defined. If they called it Vodoun, or Kabbala, or similar, I would expect it to be based on some specific real world metaphysical belief system, even if further sensationalised for the sake of the fiction.

>>92604361
Yeah, that's much more palatable than a generic "its attached to the ki keyword and that explains absolutely any mechanic that doesn't make sense."

>>92604347
It doesn't even resemble Jack Vance's Dying Earth all that much because of the logistics autism.

>>92604732
The reason there's three transliterations is because there's several fairly distant areas with such beliefs that diverged dramatically. The sex cults had little to do with the martial arts monasteries and both had much to disagree with the alchemists on.

>>92604732
You could fill books with examples of D&D taking the shallow trappings of a real world concept, especially Eastern ones, or just the name only and filling something else in.

>>92604788
I thought the three spellings were
Qi: Chinese Pinyin spelling
Chi: Wade Giles English Spelling
Ki: Japanese pronunciation, IIRC because Japan didn't get most of its Chinese loanwords from mediaeval Mandarin but from some other mediaeval Chinese dialect.

Though I don't doubt that different sects quibble about the details of how it supposedly works.

>>92604793
That's particularly true with monsters, but I'm not going to assume every random noun means something wildly different in d&d, unless I see something that directly details it as such.

Monks, though the actual ki game mechanic is basically undefined in how it works, have a variety of abilities attributed to the wudang and shaolin monks, albeit filtered through the lens of old martial arts films. I take that as further support for it being centred around wudang and shaolin stuff, and tied to actual Taoist / Buddhist chi beliefs.

Though as with AD&D spellcasting, I would prefer to have it spelled out indepth as well, but, preferably with meridian diagrams and explanations based on Shaolin Buddhist and Wudang Taoist beliefs on the topic, supplemented with stuff from wuxia fiction.

Anyways. Because D&D doesn't spell it out as something else, I'm assuming chi means chi, with meridians and breathing and meditative exercises, not "powered by tiny potatoes growing in your blood" or some other random thing.

>>92604788
When was the last time the actual books called it Vancian? It was never a particularly close match to Vance, was it? Certainly wasn't much like Vance anymore by '87 when the Forgotten Realms stuff started coming out. Some similarities, but IIRC tons more spells prepared than in Vance.

>>92602873
>Daily abilities on a non-magic class are impossible to justify
I used to be able to imitate Muttley's laugh 3/day, for some reason.

>>92603247
I mean with Warblade or whatever you just need to "Limber up" after a special attack by making a normal one.

>>92608571
I really like the way the warblade recovery mechanic works.
It gives a battle rhythm vibe of sorts.
Like a very involved fighting style that weaves the basics of armed fighting with advanced techniques.

>>92584696
A bit late but thanks for the info

>>92604361
The "divine" part is pretty loose. In a theoretical ToB 2 I could see the crusader mechanic being packaged with a sneakier set of disciplines as part of a rogue-type class.

>>92611253
Another question. What about divine manifestations?

>>92612497
Meaning what, exactly? Meditate and wish for it really hard and you get what you want in life?

>>92614105
Simbols of a God, event in theyr history recreated in the present, an avatar being chosen etc. How can that question puzzle you?

>>92614512
Because divine manifestation is used to describe what I just mentioned as well, and I can't think of how you would want to handle god sending you a vision or sending you an angel, or choosing an avatar that's not just roleplay, world building and DM placing such divine events as an encounter.

What kind of mechanic are you looking for, random encounter events to put on your encounter tables (probably need to be tailored for your setting)? Player prays to their god and has a small chance of invoking them to show up - I think there's some kind of mechanic like that in GURPS to try to get a spell you don't have prepared or that's above your level? (I'm not familiar with any of these things as mechanics for 3e, but I could look if you're a bit more specific in what you want).

If you ask for something vague and ill-defined - as opposed to possession, which I handed you the subsystems pretty quick because I knew what I was looking for - my autistic ass won't know exactly what the fuck you want, even if I'm inclined to try to help out.

No need to get pissy at people who are being helpful.

>>92603173
Encounter abilities are pretty gamified, but acceptably so IMO. Also ki to me is just a caster-adjacent energy resource. If I were to work on an alternative, I would call it Stamina. Every class has it, and uses it when exerting themselves in an exceptional way, like sprinting at full speed, making long jumps, lifting large weights, and using special combat maneuvers. Initiator classes would have more, and ways to recover it, and would use more of it when using maneuvers.

Like, 1 Stamina per level of maneuver being used, and they recover 1 stamina per turn they don't use a maneuver, 2 when they aren't in a stance either. Add feats to increase stamina and recover it faster, alter some class abilities and feats to note how much stamina they use, and how fast it recovers out of combat. You could even use this to make single class Fighters worth a damn, by giving them the fastest recovery and least taxing feats, so they can basically go at full power non stop.

>>92603247
>they're running as encounter powers
Yes and no, readied maneuvers can be recovered during a fight.

Since we are talking about ToB, I can't remember where I read that, but Ex abilities are explicitly non-magical and can be physics breaking by definition right?
What are the craziest maneuvers that are Ex? What about crazy maneuvers that are not even that, as in they are not Su, Sp, nor Ex? Are there any?

>>92616210
Naturally, every maneuver is either (ex) or (su), but Shadow Jaunt gives you a short range (ex) teleport.

>>92616210
Anything that's not specified defaults to (Ex) in 3.5. Strike of Righteous Vitality and IHS are definitely the most out there (Ex) maneuvers.

ded thred

>>92622022
Indeed. There are usually only a few of us active, and it appears today most of us are busy. I would guess most of the posts in this thread are by the same 5 people, with another 25-35 posting only occasionally, based on the old IP data that's now hidden.

I'm actually doing 3.x campaign stuff this afternoon, but I'm preoccupied with campaign prep and nobody else is talking much.

>>92615296
You could structure a game like this but you'd see a lot of spamming the best technique, or at least the most cost-effective one. Pretty much the exact reason ToB is structured the way it is.

>>92622643
NTA, but I think I would try to set it up like a fighter where certain moves chain together better, and if you spam the same attack over and over you're less likely to land it and more likely to be whiff-punished.

Off the top of my head, as a startimg point, A stacking -2 to hit for every time you use the same attack in a row, and if you miss by 5 or more they get an AoO. Maybe some would have other variables going on, like a chance of self injury if you use the technique 'wrong' (spamming it, perhaps using it in the first round, using it when youre below 25% health, using it when you have ability damage, or when you have bleed, or using it if you have less than X ability score, etc - it can be different for each technique). Maybe also allow you to overexert yourself and do a technique *better / faster / harder, again risking injury. It would be more complex and tactical and would encourage players to design different routines for different kinds of enemies, but sometimes they might decide to risk injury to do something unusual. But it would take some doing to design properly, much like trying to balance a fighter.

>>92623374
And maybe for some you need to have built up a bar of special (which would quickly deplete if not used so you're not carrying it over from one combat to the next) to use it.

>>92622022
It's been two weeks since my last session of 3.5e.
Which sucks because my character got a good scent of a track that led us to a fort filled with |Tanaruk that invaded through a planar breach and scattered to the four winds. We are about to storm the fort, fuck those guys yup, and hopefully find some of the people that went missing during the whole planar invasion mess that ended a couple of sessions ago.
Was kind of hyped to surprise my group by using my persisted Dragon Breath spell.
At least I got to goof off with another group of friends playing 5e in the meantime, so that was nice.
Thank you for reading my blog.

>>92623374
>>Off the top of my head, as a starting point, A stacking -2 to hit for every time you use the same attack in a row, and if you miss by 5 or more they get an AoO.

Neat. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that as a general rule against intelligent enemies, it's a decent representation of learning your patterns and adapting to it. Of course, spellcasters should get a similar penalty, like a +2 bonus to saves, or needing a skill check to cast their spells and taking a penalty to that.

>>92629623
A Not-Truenamer as the core caster would be interesting. It was a good concept just mechanically fucked.

>>92615071
I was not being pissy it honestly confused me how that puzzled you. Seems so obvious to me.

I'll do an example but you already gave me an idea of what to do.

The gods should be the opposite of demons. Demons try to establish any form of relationship or connection so they can have an entry way into brute forcing control over the subject.

In this sense a god should not have to go through that hassel but what I need is a way to simulate theyr judgement based on the gods characteristics.

If this is a god of war all you need to do is ask and enact an act of war on an enemy etc.

>>92629623
>general rule
It wouldn't work well with basic attacks, since players dependent on them don't have other alternatives.

The difficulty with spells is it doesn't make sense to be able to do that with big AoEs. But I could see it for single target spells.

Anyways, if I ever take a crack at "what if martials had interesting combat", that what it would look like. Me adapting ideas from Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, and Ultimate Ninja Storm gameplay into 3.x mechanics, with additional attack-power-maneuver ideas drawn from Naruto, Bleach, and Jin Yong Wuxia.

The design wouldn't look like 4e or ToB, but it wouldn't look like yon AD&D fighter or the 3.0 PHB fighter, either.

In the meantime, I'll lean on Eclipse Martial Arts - and the arguments in this thread have given me cause to look through ToB again. Maybe I'll whitelist the Crusader if not the rest.

>>92584595
I bought this one, it's bad , don't waste your money. And their Kingdoms system is just a straight cut and paste of Pathfinder Kingmaker.

>>92633121
... None of them are standalone products, anon. They're expansion material for Ultimate Campaign, and Ultimate Campaign is itself an expansion and slight rebalance of the kingmaker rules for use outside the AP.

... Were you trying to use them by themselves?

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>>92633136
No, dude, what are you talking about? I'm saying my group and I TRIED them and the battle rules were CLUNKY and NOT VERY GOOD and the campaign/ kingdom builder rules are almost a literal cut and paste of Pathfinder's Kingmaker rules. There is little to no "rebalancing", it's just a straight carry over. a BP is 4k gold in pathfinder, and it's 4k gold in this, that right there shows you it's bad because the gold economy in 5e is nowhere as inflated as Pathfinder's. So why is a build point the same amount of gold when 5e characters make a fraction as much? Why is the magic production set more or less the same when 5e is built around magic item scarcity?
So I'm warning anons so they avoid it or at least steal the pdf first before trying to implement them. Sorry I ruined your shill OP, frendo.

>>92633248
>5e
???

>>92633248
>5e?
This is the 3.5 thread sir. Pathfinder copied its gold prices from 3.5.

Whether or not they did a good job converting Ultimate Campaign to 5e is not relevant to the discussion.

As for 'rebalancing'i don't mean they redid the basic premise, I mean they added new types of buildings and added more options that they felt were missing.

At the end of the day its an optional expansion to Ultimate Campaign, for PF1.

Maybe the battle rules fall flat even in that context. I've read them but haven't had a chance to try them yet.

But "sir, this is a Wendy's" there's no proficiency bonuses here, and WBL is your job as DM.

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>>92633362
Forgot the pic.

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>>92633248
> shill
One should torrent *Everything* and try it before spending money on it.

I just picked a book cover for a 3.x book to use as the OP image, from my big folder of 3.xe book cover images. It got picked because I couldnt think of a better Thread Question and was relevant to the one I came up with of "Have any o you ever used any of the mass combat warfare systems for 3.x?", because this is one of the ~10 options out there.

I have another folder of dragon magazine full-page art and one of 3.x cover art without the text. The shill conspiracy is in your head. Also, how the fuck did you miss this is the 3.5 thread?

3.0/3.5/3e/3.5e are mentioned in the OP 6 fucking times.

Take your meds.

Uh, hey you all, Imma werewolf now.
How fucked am I?
How fucked is the rest of the party?

>>92633849
>How fucked am I?
Extremely, the benefits are not remotely worth the loss of being treated as four levels higher for XP gain.

>How fucked is the rest of the party?
If you're the Designated Beatstick, possibly irrevocably because there are a LOT of ways for that to paste the party. If you're a wimpy Wizard, you don't have any goodies for Dumb Woofer and should be trivial to restrain through the mere +2 Strength.

>>92633849
Depends on the DM of course, but generally, very fucked.
That LA sucks too.

>>92633932
>the benefits are not remotely worth the loss of being treated as four levels higher for XP gain.
Do I get cool points?
>If you're the Designated Beatstick, possibly irrevocably because there are a LOT of ways for that to paste the party
Not the only one, but arguably the most dangerous out of hand.
Also, I'm really worried about the forced alignment change. I'm in a party of good guys, and the idea of spontaneously becoming The Evil Fucktard could be a real problem for the party.

>>92634129
Acquire Helms of Opposite Alignment and riverine binds somehow. You've gotta fail a saving throw sometime.

>>92633849
As a werewolf you just gained the Control Shape skill, invest in that exclusively and take a Skill Focus feat until you get a +15 bonus in it, this will let you reliably resist being forced to change and lose control of your actions.

>>92633967
>That LA sucks too.
There's a thread on GitP which tries to rebalance LAs to be actually worth it
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825

Lycanthrope got LA +1 (for both natural and afflicted), and that's assuming you pick an optimal animal form (something with 1 HD generally).

>>92633932
Two levels higher for afflicted, three for natural.

>>92634129
There's a thing about werewolves staying good if they join the church of Selune. It showed up in one of the Sembia novels. Lemme check the wiki.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Werewolf

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Wolf

You want to seek out the church of Selune, they can keep you from going evil, give you the ability to speak in hybrid form, and give you some minor buffs, if you convert. Selune has a bunch of good werewolves, all exempt from the typical madness.

See if your GM will let you take the reassigned LA. The LA in the MM is crap.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=21949747&postcount=133

>>92634302
No chance in hell with this DM.
>>92634436
That will be of some difficulty, but I have no other choice.
>>92634449
>>92634491
My DM does not allow for homebrew, but I will try the Selune thing.

>>92634551
>but I have no other choice.
There are possible cures, most need to be attempted within days of being infected, but if you have a divine caster who can cast Remove Curse or Break Enchantment they can try it during the three days of the full moon, but you'll have to pass a DC20 Will save at the same time. But, you can repeat this method as much as needed.

>>92634551
I don't normally allow any homebrew except my own, but the LA rebalancing project is legit. Worth bringing it up. An animal HD is not equal to a real level, and the LA on a lycanthrope (like most monsters) is just too high, presumably to discourage you from playing one, but then - you didn't ask to become a lycanthrope. it happened ingame. IMO it's not fair for a GM to saddle you with an unreasonable number of LA penalties, particularly when they did it via encounters.

>>92634589
Feel free to send him my post (and this one) as the advice you got when you asked how to make the best of becoming a lycanthrope online. I'm not generally a player, I'm a GM.

And yeah, invest heavily in the Control Shape skill. One benefit, as a shape changer, you're now much less harshly affected by most polymorph magics.

>>92634551
>>92634628
Funny enough, the guy in the novel, refuses to leave his life behind to join the church, and instead stays himself by learning to control it as a skill. The cleric of Selune in the novel eventually says "fine but we will be keeping an eye on you in case you go evil".

Anyways. That's my advice. Good luck, and hopefully your GM is reasonable regarding not punishing you with unreasonably high xp penalties.

>>92630362
>A Not-Truenamer as the core caster would be interesting. It was a good concept just mechanically fucked.
The core spellcasters get a ton for free. I've wondered if the way to kill the quadratic wizard should be to take that all the freebies away from them.
Make spellcasting not just one skill, but at least one for each spell school (I'd be more partial to something closer to a Verb + Noun system, so instead of just Conjuration, you need Summon (Elemental) and Create (Earth) etc. etc.).
A spellcasting skill would then give you the ability to cast a cantrip-like effect, approximately as powerful as any other skill or proficency (damaging spells about as powerful as throwing knives or shortbows, other effects about as powerful as those provided by equipment), and if you want more powerful effects, you need to spend your feats on unlocking more options for the spellcasting skill.

>>92633056
>>It wouldn't work well with basic attacks, since players dependent on them don't have other alternatives.
Of course this would be done in combination with an expansion of standard combat options, but even in core 3.5 there's the standard attack, the full attack, fighting defensively, switching weapons or using unarmed strikes, feinting, aiding another, bull rushing, disarming, grappling, tripping, overrunning and probably a few more options that I'm forgetting and aren't in the SRD combat chapter.

That's quite a few, even if most of them are shit. I'm sure a buffed martial class could find a way to make 4 or 5 of them viable options, even at level 1. Besides, most of the time it wouldn't be too bad to take the penalty for 1 or 2 rounds.

>>92634720
Ah. I was thinking of each attack in a full attack, and a standard action attack, all counting as a "basic attack", and then each attack in a full attack would end up eating stacking -2s because they're the same basic attack with penalties.

But yes, you could rebalance shit and make the basic maneuvers more viable to add some variety, particularly if you let them be mixed into full attack routines.

But, I think its definitely possible to make more interesting martials without using the 4e or ToB approach.

>>92634720
>>92634752
Turn psionic focus into a basic mechanic (just called "focus"). Being focused lets you make combat maneuvers without provoking AoOs, or you can expend focus to withstand conditions that would insta-kill you or take away your ability to act.

>>92634766
Not a bad idea. Makes alternative combat maneuvers more viable by giving martials another option than the feat taxes for Improved Trip etc. Requires sacrificing a round to concentrate, but that can be done in advance, unless you're using a juicy focus-expending maneuver.

>>92634551
>>92634573
This, if I recall (in case your party has the proper Knowledge), you can ingest belladonna/wolfsbane within days.
It's kinda poisonous though, by the way. There's a save to be cured and one for the poison, so keep everyone on guard for both.

>>92634766
>>92634835
>Entering barbarian rage instantly grants focus
When to enter rage is now a slightly more tactical decision

>>92634921
Yes, but failing the fort save for wolfsbane doesn't mean you don't get cured, and the strength damage would make you less dangerous as a werewolf if you don't get cured. It's always worth trying.

>>92634457
Werewolves also get two RHD to go with the +2 LA of Afflicted

>>92635222
The racial hit dice at least come with all the feats the wolf has, whether bonus feats or not so you now have weapon focus (bite) and track. But yeah. Everything you do get is not worth being treated as 4 levels higher for xp, especially if you were a spellcaster. Just... Ouch.

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I wonder if he still lurk these threads.
Here's hoping he makes a video on the top 10 Tactical Feats.

>>92634551
You might want this variant, since it is not homebrew.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200315192224/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

> The animal class is entirely optional. No would-be lycanthrope is required to take it, but doing so is an advantage, since a character without it is weaker than other lycanthropes of the same type. Taking levels in the appropriate animal template class gives the character the animal's Hit Dice and hit points (in all forms), saving throw bonuses (in all forms), skill points (in all forms), racial skill bonuses (in all forms), conditional skill modifiers (in animal form), ability score modifiers (in hybrid or animal form), natural armor bonus, and special attacks (such as the wolf's trip). Levels in the animal class may be taken at any point after the character takes one level in the lycanthrope template class. He is also free to take levels in other classes between levels of the template class and the animal class, as desired. The animal class, like the template class, does not count when determining whether a character takes an XP penalty for multiclassing.

An *official* option, which lets you skip the shitty hit dice and take class levels instead.

Your DM could reasonably insist that you take at least the first level, of the template class (which doesn't grant HD or saves or a BAB increase, IE, just LA stuff), or grant it automatically, and then you only have a +1 LA.

Even if he rules you have to take both LA levels as your next levels, or that you get them automatically, it's a good argument for being allowed to skip the shitty animal hit dice, given that's what the official guidelines for gaining a template midcampaign say to do.

Thank you Archive!

>>92633849
>>92634129
>>92634551

>>92635222
Per the Savage Progressions stuff in the WotC archives, those RHD are optional, which makes it less punishing. Being forced to take 4 shitty levels sucks, but getting a +2 LA with some cool abilities and no RHD is much more manageable

>>92635816
I'm making it a PDF for convenience. Will upload it in a bit.

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>>92637317
Whoops. Too wall-of-text-y. I forgot to add the space between paragraphs. Here's a fix.

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>>92637385
Fucking fuck. One of the tables was fucked up because it had the wrong Paragraph style applied. Hopefully this fixes the last formatting issue.

>>92634656
I think in the novel Talbot turns into a Werewolf voluntarily without becoming evil. One of those things where the Novel Author didn't get the memo on the game rules, I guess. Personally I think shapeshifting voluntarily shouldn't cause a permanent alignment shift automatically and should still allow a save, but that's just me. Anywho, I didn't change any of the rules text, I grabbed it off the website (I did use the spelling and grammar check and fixed a couple spelling errors, but that's it. I make these in MS Word, not a dedicated PDF software.)

>>92634551
If you can't get cured, you really want to become a Selunite.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/New_Moon_Pact

The New Moon Pact article describes the bonuses you get once you complete the initiation rite (pretty minor stuff) - but doesn't go into the alignment preservation. The alignment preservation part, is however, a major plot point in the Black Wolf novel.

Note: The article talks about the pact as a faction that fights Sharrans being refounded in 1373; but Selune having good aligned werewolves is a thing in the Black Wolf novel, and that's in 1372, before the faction of the church was refounded. You should just be able to join the church (like, as an initiate), and after your initiation you'll receive the benefits, regardless of which branch of the church you join, simply because Selune uses good-aligned lycanthropes as soldiers and such.

>>92635222
Animal levels are shit but it's better than just straight LA.

>>92637674
Depends how much straight LA. LA+2 is better than LA+2 RHD+2.

>>92608571
>>92611167
Yeah I don't think ANY are pure encounter powers.

>>92634551
I don't think the LA applies if you're converted unwillingly in combat.

>>92634766
Needing tons of feats or a specific class to become psionic to get Psionic focus for deflective armor to make armor actually good is really annoying.

>>92638753
>don't think the LA applies if you're converted unwillingly in combat.
On what grounds? I'm pretty sure it still does.

>>92638753
>I don't think the LA applies if you're converted unwillingly in combat.
That's a new one for me.
Dude in our group ended up becoming a rat man (the DM was nice enough to ask him if he was fine with that), and now he's ECL 18 due to all the LA he gained.
You being right would be good news for the guy, although I don't think you are.

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For the DM in the threads, say you had a cleric player with DMM persist and they persisted Positive Energy Aura, meaning they'd be walking around during their day to day healing people just with their presence, possibly glowing like god damn jesus.
How would you account for that in the game? As in, how would your npcs react, would you take that into account when crafting encounters, would you create situations where that backfire, that kind of thing.
Assume a forgotten realms like setting where magic is not uncommon but the average farmer has probably only seen it from afar, for example.

>>92644767
Injured NPCs start swarming him trying to get in on the healing.
Sickly NPCs do similar, hoping it cures their ailments (even though it doesn't).
They constantly beg him for healing, or beg him to save their sick relatives.
A cult starts to spring up around him.
Other churches put him on a hit list.
Then the assassination & kidnapping attempts and slander propaganda start.
(Kidnappers would be people who don't realize he needs to renew it, hoping they can force him to heal people).

>encounters
Enemies who know what he does would plan around it. Those who don't, would not.

>>92584595
Is there a better 3.5 AIO template resource than Realms Helps?

Werewolf anon here, I am heartened by the folk that came out of the woods to help me out.
I have NEVER seen an actual pc get infected with lycanthropy, and while the extra stuff may help in terms of mechanical bonuses, I had intended to actually shoot for the Saint template, since the party is entirely good guys, and it would put me at odds with the church we are a part of, which would either excommunicate me out of hand, if not imprison/execute me for peak heresy.
I do think that the timeline we are in is indeed 1373/74, so if the party can't cure me (we still have a weak belladonna tincture the DM said I can take to try to shake it off), I will seek out the Selunites, and maybe ask the DM about the Savage progression.
Again, thank you all anons who came out.

>>92645866
Happy to help, anon.

There's no specific template for the Selunite initiation thing, that I can find, it seems to have only shown up in the novels. That said, The one article talks about how it works (aside from the alignment protection, and the other novel, the article doesn't mention it, but the fact that the Selunites will stop him from going evil if he enlists is a major plot point of the novel. So, your DM would have to make you the relevant mechanics, but it shouldn't be too to make them up from what's described.)

> You can talk in hybrid form
> You don't turn evil.
That's the important part. Everything else is gravy.

>>92646119
>You don't turn evil.
This is the only thing I care about.
I'll eat the LA and all the other stuff, so long is it allows me to stay a part of the party.
We are The Good Guys, dammit, and while I don't regret what got me here, will regret being the one in the party who crashes it.

>>92645215
>Injured NPCs start swarming him trying to get in on the healing.
>Sickly NPCs do similar, hoping it cures their ailments (even though it doesn't).
>They constantly beg him for healing, or beg him to save their sick relatives.
Alright, makes sense.

>A cult starts to spring up around him.
I can see that happening, although I imagine that the character in question would use that as a chance to advertise the religion of their deity.

>Other churches put him on a hit list.
>Then the assassination & kidnapping attempts and slander propaganda start.
>(Kidnappers would be people who don't realize he needs to renew it, hoping they can force him to heal people).
Holy shit lol.
Yeah, I guess that's a possibility.
Or at least some other form of consequence, all that attention will have repercussions, I suppose.

>>92634720
>Make spellcasting not just one skill, but at least one for each spell school

I've also wondered sometimes what it would be like to graft a Rolemaster-like system onto D&D/d20, where a spell list is a skill, you gain basically a spell per rank, and there are probably at least a few lists per school.

>>92644767
>>92645215
>>92646548
Well it depends how Meat-pointy your hitpoints are.

This may cure bruising and scrapes and minor cuts, or more serious stuff but not missing limbs.

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>>92648703
>Well it depends how Meat-pointy your hitpoints are.
That's a good point actually.
The reactions would be stronger the more overt the effects of mild hit point healing.

>>92645866
The one time I've seen a PC become a lycanthrope it was because the druid wildshaped into a T-rex and then ate a wereboar

I was reading some discussion in the GiTP forum about the Dragonrider PRC from one of the dragonlance books, somebody was trying to argue that it stacked with the dragon cohort feat.
What do you guys think?

How would you price a magic item that gave you five charges of a "greater spell immunity" effect, at-will, versus a hostile spell? On one hand, its only five times rather than for x many minutes, on the other hand, it can be versus any spell (that isnt 9th level) at any time.
Using various methods, I've gone from as low as 18,000 to as high as 48,000 gold.

>>92584595
New Thread
>>92657179
>>92657179
>>92657179
>>92657179
>>92657179

>>92644767
Positive Energy Aura only cures HP damage - that's not nothing, but its also relatively on the low end of health problems.Because HP damage is something that will go away naturally within a week of rest. So that's not even broken arm kind of injury, its like minor cuts and sprains.

Curing disease is where its at and restorative effects that can treat ability damage.
So I don't think it would be all that special like to the point of a cult.

Some relatively trivial things that might pop up around a guy like that:
> Town organizes to keep track of this cleric's where-abouts so people with minor injuries can easily find him
> Any kind of martial training guilds / schools / military camps in this settlement will find that guy very useful because it would allow their trainees to not hold back as much and that makes a big difference for practical training.

All in all, a 'cure hp' effect is relatively small deal. It would be bigger deal that it seems today where so few of us do actual manual labor, and so on the job injuries are relatively rare. But still, keep in mind that 99% of public health care is fighting against disease and the kind of 'chronic' conditions that would probably require a Restoration to cure - because it can't be mere Ability Damage, as that too goes away relatively quickly, it would have to be something like Ability Drain.
HP damage is relatively rare for normies.Outside of maybe people in town rushing an accident victim to where ever the cleric is and people with minor cuts and sprains coming by
The true need for healing is curing diseases and