I have no former experience with martial arts, but want to start with either boxing or muay thai. Main objective is self defense. Which one would be the better choice?Also, not sure if that's important, but the boxing gym closest to me says they teach "Cuban boxing".
>>89218muay thai if you wanna be uber fit
>>89218Whichever has you doing steady cardio
>>89218It is, Cuban boxing has won a lot on oly and has very good footworkYour best bet is try them both, albeit thay is more complete
>>89237>very good footworkNice, the footwork is exactly one of the biggest strengths I'm seeing in boxing over mt.
>>89218Boxing footwork is superior on the streets. It'll keep you safe, pro boxers are masters of defensive movement combined with head movement pro boxers are almost impossible to hit.
>>89241Keep in mind that this is the theory, I can’t vouch for your specific coach as it could be a utter retard running a salsa fitboxe class. Or be a oly trainer/trained. That’s for you to verify. But as oly go Cuban boxing has seen a lot of success and is very influenced by Soviet style, also focusing more on footwork
>>89242Yeah agree, while also I don’tBoxers can’t do shit vs takedowns, a friendly spar between my normie gym friend and a amateur boxer fren of mine with various matches ended in a second with a fast takedown as the gymbro knew he could not outbox himAlso tried something similar with my karate friend, got chokeholded and found out he also did bjj.This is anetoddical evidence on very friendly spars, but recent rodtang vs mma guy proves it by far boxing (or any striking art for the matter) is very exposed to takedown. It is is only weakness in the street (except low kicks, those can fuck you up as boxer)
>>89218> Which one would be the better choice?Lethwei (1st), Muay Thai (2nd), Boxing (3rd)
>>89342Where the fuck would you train letwei you leduc cookrider?
>>89342lethwei is ballsack
I agree that boxing is probably the best in term of learning self-defense but desu both choices are great for it. I'd say look for the closest gym and decide based on that if self-defense is your only concern.
>>89444The two closest gyms have both, with the one that looks better saying they teach "Cuban boxing".I think I'm now essentially having to choose between footwork vs clinch.
Both are fine enough for self-defense. Just choose the gym with the toughest looking guys as your training partners will be more important for your self-defense needs than small details between styles.
>>89341>boxers can’t do shit vs takedownsIf a pro boxer is ready for you he absolutely will stuff your takedowns with simple footwork. If he's ready for you to kick he'll knock your ass out as soon as he sees your legs moving.Yeah if you ask a boxer to spar and then do some shit that's outside of the rules you'll catch him off guard, of course.Boxing outside footwork is enough to beat wrestlers and counter punching is enough to beat kicks.Watch more MMA boxing is 90% of the stand up game.
>>89470Agree, but op is not a pro and he is talking about self defence so the lack of takedown defense is worth mentioning in a self defence scenario.
>>89218Whichever gym has a better/more proffesional vibeCuban boxers are one of the best usuallyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjJ379OSG8Y
>>89445muay thai has as much footwork as boxing, it's just different and more subtle because drastic bobs and forward slips can get your skull caved in
>>89582this only came after boxing influence though and is still rarely taught in mt
>>89591not really. there's plenty of upper body movement in muay thai but like i said it's different. muay thai stance is generally more upright and you have to be crouched to slip forward and bob like a boxer. most muay thai gyms don't teach a crouched stance because if you crouch and blade you get your front leg chopped off. i can post a dozen clips of slips, angling off and footwork from any period in muay thai, it's just that they have to worry about legs too so they have other forms of defense and their slips are subtle. in thailand they do teach slipping, but they want you to BARELY move your head to get out of the way. in boxing you can afford drastic, huge slips and more upper body movement because the lower body isn't threatened. you'll notice the most drastic slips in muay thai are backwards because they're the safest
>>89621you'll notice a lot more head movement from nak muay when they're at the ropes and they're in-fighting, and even in this clip he almost gets domed with a kick for trying to slip out.again it's not that the upper-body movement or footwork is worse in muay thai, it's just different and more subtle
>>89470>if>if>he's gonna do all this shit he spends no time working onIf he had a sword, he'd slice the MMA in 2 like a real samurai too.
>>89646Using the word if doesn't nullify the whole statement all he said really was have a boxer spar under MMA rules and he'll learn to adjust, that's all
>>89621>>89623Nak muay have been cross training in boxing for 40 years at this point so I'm sure u could find clips but I doubt it's because of a sense of boxing influence but because of the influence of boxing, and you're arguing against a generality, there are plenty of boxers that use pulls and even hip pulls that nak muay use to avoid leg and mid kicks as well, either u have very little experience boxing or no experience boxing but not all boxers fight in the forward plane, there are three axis that boxers use for different situations it's just most casuals only watch brawlers who fight on the front foot, plenty of fighters, mainly counter punchers that don't keep their weight on the front foot all the time
>>89621Furthermore in boxing they generally want you to slip as little as possible, literally word for word your explanation of muay Thai in which boxers are told to keep it tight and move as only as much as necessary to avoid a punch, sure u can afford to be more drastic but as you stated so do mt fighters
>>89218I'd say boxing.Fought against people from boxing and Muay backgrounds in mma and Muay has just let me down constantly.It has some good shit in it, but the footwork seems lackluster and the techniques rely on being able to be pulled off once successfully, while boxing has a whole lot more thought and mental strategy put into it with head movement, foot placing, and overall comes off as far more competitively gamed out to cover more shit in an open conflict.Boxing strikes me as something with more fight sense, and more training to it.Now Muay thai's obviously fucking good when used by dudes who've trained since 11 and are uber fit, but when I can walk into a gym and no-dif a 6'5 tradesman dude in open sparring because he came from muay thai, and I can then train for a month and despite my past experiences with karate and fencing and having a long reach and good reaction times, I can still be downed by a 5'11 boxer before I saw him move, I'd be lying if I said Muay thai looks better as a combat style.
>>89218>2 limbs vs 8 limbsgee I fucking wonder dumbass!
Can I start boxing if I'm slim as fuck? I want to attend the gym besides it, but is it okay if I have little to zero muscle when starting out?
>>89242>pro boxers are masters of......leaving their front leg exposed so you can kick the shit out of it.
>>92723>>92367This is exactly what I'm talking about. EVERY single boxer I've sparred with always starts out exposing their lead legs because they're not used to having it kicked the fuck out in a boxing match, and they use their front legs as range markers.
depends really. i do muay thai, but depending on the school you go to you might just get karate with elbows, or sport muay thai where a lot of it is based around points aka kicks, which aren’t always the best. that said, most thai boxers can start just doing boxing and kick fuck out of other boxers, but it doesn’t go both ways. boxing you’ll develop very fast, powerful hands, and you’ll also get some better head movement. footwork is more or less equal, just different.
boxingyour legs are the last weapons you resort to in a fight ngl
Boxing is strictly inferior. The reason why MT doesn't prance around with the head is because you will get your fucking head caved in by a kick if you do that. You will get a distinct advantage in a street fight if you can grapple, knee, elbow, and kick. MT + BJJ + Wrestling.
>>89470>he absolutely will stuff your takedowns with simple footwork. Lmao wtf you are talking aboutGrapplers spend years training takedowns and takedown defense to be stopped by a boxer with simple footwork?Its like saying a grappler wont be knocked out by a clean overhand because he can break fallIf the only thing you can do is box i will pick you up and slam you lol
>>89218>Which one would be the better choice?Definitely boxing.
only disadvantage of muay thai is that its stance is less adaptable to takedown defense because its so tall. Boxing has a lower stance and can drop the lead hand low in a philly shell which can be used to get underhooks etc. Boxing on the other hand will get fucked up by leg kicks cuz that lead leg is so exposed. Plus boxing has fewer weapons and techniques at its disposal. The two styles complement each other extremely well, im trying to fuse them into my own hybrid style right now desu. with some random other shit thrown in for fun like hammerfists backfists weird tkd and capoiera kicks etc. But 99% of what i do is either muay thai with a boxing flavor or boxing with muay thai techniques added in
Muay Thai. Boxing teaches you techniques that are bad in a fight that allows more than hands to be used. If you walk out with a philly shell you are getting your arm broken with a midline kick. If you bend down at the waist you are getting kneed in the face. Also, boxing clinches aren’t as effective as a Thai clinch.
>>93073I hold philly shield in kickboxe and im fine lel
>>89341Muay thai is even worse at dealing with takedowns. boxing stance is heavier on the front foot and lower making sprawling easier. a tall muay thai stance is just way easier to shoot a takedown on. adding basic wrestling defence tends to be a smoother transition for a boxerboth are totally fine though and there are very successful mma fighters from both backgrounds.For strictly self defence I usually suggest boxing for striking. keeping your feet planted and using good footwork while keeping things simple with punches keeps you adaptable to changing circumstances and lets you reserve more brain power for you situational awareness (and remember most people are absolute trash at fighting anyway. you won't be boxing a K1 star on the street). less likely to slip/trip in the dark, trains good awareness (ring control) of other people, and if the asshole attacking you catches your leg even if you drop him he can latch on and make it difficult to run from his friends. Also roadwork is such a part of the culture of boxing and is your best option if weapons come out.some good leg kicks can end a fight pretty well though.And don't neglect grappling just because you don't expect to take anyone down. All it takes is the guy to grab your shirt and start hugging you to drag you down if you don't know what you are doing.And years ago I was able to de-escalate a situation with a drunk guy who attacked me by wrestling him down slowly and non threateningly while keeping a dialogue with his friends and joking with them about their wasted buddy. I was concerned that if I just slept him his buddies would all come out in force. Instead by the end they were grabbing and restraining their friend and laughing at him while I got lost in the crowd.
>>89218Boxing, purely because the return on time investment is much higher earlier in your training. In other words, the learning curve is not nearly as steep. I'd recommend practicing a grappling MA first though, just for 2-3 months, then move to boxing. Just knowing the fundamentals of grappling will make you way, way safer in a self-defense situation. Between two untrained spazzes, keeping a fight standing is way harder than taking someone down.However, in the case of an experienced Thai vs an experienced boxer, the Thai is better suited to self-defense. They will both be very good at punching and defending against punches, but the addition of knees, elbows, and clinches is an important distinction.
>>89218For self defense, my vote is Muay Thai. Judo is probably better than both though.
Is there much difference between Thai Kik Jitsu and muay Thai?
>>89218for overall self-defense? muay thai.by the way, you need to understand almost all 'street fights' end up on the ground at some point. being able to recover, protect, or fight off the ground is essential. try picking up some judo or bjj first.
>>893411. That was light sparring, and not a street fight2.An experienced boxer DOES NOT fucking need to pull any or defend against takedowns when fighting an average joe. Literally the moment the joe enters his contact area, he will get blinked out.
>>89342>lethwei>muh headbuttEnjoy your fucking brain damage, Congraduations you managed to engage in a sport even more CTE proned than boxing all because you follow fucking memes.
>>89470No, he's not. It's takes more striking skill to stop someone from clinching you with punches than it does to initiate the clinch against someone that only throws punches.In general, the grappler beats the striker. It's only recently that everyone in pro-mma has gotten good enough at defensive grappling that striking skill decides fights.
>>89218For self-defence boxing. It's more practical in 9/10 self defence situations in most Western suburban/urban hand to hand fight.For general fighting yeah obvs Muay is superior as it allows use of all limbs. But chances are most self defence situations will be someone throwing a haymaker. And have by standers/security end it after a few punches are thrown.
Ok so I’ve done some grappling for a while in judo/bjj and want to cut it back to try some striking. Self defence/fun. I also lift 2-3 days a week. I’ve got the same question as OP, I’ve done a trial at each gym, and I don’t see much clear benefit of one over the other from the replies here. Except for nak muay thinking they’d beat any boxer with leg kicks (I don’t have any experience facing them so wouldn’t know), and boxers having a bit of over-confidence (the one time I fought a boxer who called me out I just blocked a shot to grab the same arm then got in to pull Osotogari to a face elbow and he backed down). I do appreciate the info from the people who’ve done both. All other things equal I’d tend towards boxing for the quicker learning curve, and focus, but the Muay Thai gym close by seems to have an advantage in training schedule. Boxing is only two days a week. I don’t really know any fundamentals and it was straight to more advanced combos and then sparring almost half the class which was ok with most guys apart from the angry manlets. However, they do also have kickboxing (mma) twice a week so I could cross-train.Muay Thai gym has more frequency, up to 5-6 times a week, also offering private 1-on-1 coaching where some coaches do muay mat style/boxing focus for private lessons. But, the classes also included conditioning drills (I can do my own conditioning) and with less overall time sparring.I’m thinking sticking with Muay Thai mostly to get the private lessons to focus on hands/footwork there, and frequency to train 4 times a week. The elbow strikes and playing with different sweeps would be nice, clinching I’d have to avoid my default reaction of setting up a throw lol. I don’t think I’d use knees or any high kicks ever though so that feels a bit wasted. Do you think that more frequency training makes up for the otherwise slower learning curve for Muay Thai?
>>89218You literally want both. Boxing is superior for striking but its fists only, augment boxing with MT elbows, throws and head clinch. MT gives you knees and kicks but most importantly you learn to watch out for (how to read your opennant) who may try a kick or elbow on you. I have seen good boxer get kicked in the head because when the guy opened is foot the boxed did not read that as the first move for a kick. You learn to read people who are prepping for kicks.You also want an instructor that actually knows how to street fight, not some boxing or muay thai fitness instructor. After some loser tried to mug me I went to many gyms for training. all the ones near me sucked and were shitty hup hup hup training. I settled on a boxing gym with an MT instructor who was mostly a fitness instructor, but luckily a new instructor joined and he taught me practical fighting/street fighting which is what I wanted. My buddy who lived an hour away went to a much better street fighting gym where it was about street fighting not ring fighting. He was not sure if the older angry instructor knew what he was doing (he started everyone on the front snap kick first, then elbows, and chokes. A few weeks after buddy started some drunk dude tried to fight him while he was doing a delivery for work ; front snap kick to stomach floored the punk, moved in choked him out. Just as trained.
>>89581watch the guy in the red shorts, see his left foot, just before he starts the kick he sets his left foot down with the foot open (pointing left) which opens his hips and allows the kick. When trained you see the foot position with your peripheral vision and instinctively know he is going to kick. Blue shorts leans back and ducks the kick.
>>89582that works because the other guy is not feinting and just telegraphing his weak punches.
>>89470It's possible but I disagree that a boxer would be able to pull that off when not training in a kicking/kneeing/clinching environment. Wangachannoi was a very successful puncher in muay Thai, specially using his cross to counter kicks, but I don't think a regular boxer can reliably have that skill.
>>100820footage is also fuckin lerdsila. peak human performance in terms of fighting with outcome independence and moving like a tekken character
>>92723>>93057Do leg kicks really come up much in street fights? That's more of a tactic for the ring where you have a couple rounds to go and slowly wearing someone's leg down with low-commitment kicks is profitable. Most street fights I've seen CCTV tapes of are over in less than a minute and usually someone's laid out on the pavement. I don't think many people are going to try leg kicks or find much profit in them.
>>101116They don't crop up often but when they do they're usually devastating. People are not prepared for that level of pain, that reduction in mobility, and they have no idea how to defend against them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLVWQR5_KjUA common quip in self defense classes is that you aren't going to win against a guy who leg kicks you in a street fight. That dude's a pro.
>>101119...the guy literally snapkicked him while he was crossing his legs all casual like. you could literally push him over at the same time.
>>101116A street fight would be over if a kick toppled one dude like in that clip.
>>101120Try. If you're not expecting it and haven't defended against shin kicks before you're not gonna catch and react to it in time.The first few months of sparring in the self defense classes I took while back in uni were mostly an exercise in getting kicked in the shins till they were all black and blue. You develop muscle memory for defending but it takes time.
>>101119boy that was a lot of shouting>>101197>>101198I think >>101120has a good counterpoint though, that guy was in a moment which is unusually susceptible to leg kicks. It's not even what ended the fight in that instance, the other guy figured out that his opponent wasn't trained and then went for the throw, which did end the fight. But as far as the leg kick he just sat down real hard and got back up. I mean maybe the guy should've taken stronger advantage of his opponent being forced down, but I can't say I would act any different in that situation. If you're a moral guy, you knock him over and then wait to see if it's over, rather than diving in to mount, ground n' pound whether he's done or not.To me that's more a lesson of>Have good footwork, dumbassthan>Leg kicks are great
>>98959>almost all 'street fights' end up on the ground at some pointYou know that statistic includes people who are drunk and never had a fight before in their lives? 99% of the time someone trained in boxing is going to pop someone who has no training and ko them before they can even touch them. Unless you are fighting an actual grappler the chances of a streetfight involving a striker going to the ground are virtually 0.
>>101198Very true. The only way to learn to defend against getting kicked in the legs, is ironically to get kicked in the legs a lot. Ditto re coming home with black & blue thighs from eating above the calf/below the waist Muay kicks. Also ditto re muscle memory from defending them repeatedly with drills and sparring.But most self-defence confrontations aren't going to involve kicks being thrown. Boxing will be more immediately effective IMHO for 9/10 self-defence situations. Learning boxing first then Muay would make the most sense.