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Because they emulate a real brawl most closely. There is no complicated theory, no showy techniques, no forcing a style according to a certain philosophy. Just go out and rip the other guy to shreds.
>>
>>78421
Winning at all costs eventually produced winners but I have to say it makes me a little sad that the spiritual component of martial arts hasn't carried over to the West.
I've spent a lot of my life studying martial arts. I made it to the ranks I have through hard work and dedication. Trying to switch to MMA is very different, everything is about the fight. There is a lot of the mysticism that has been cut out, the stories, the morals, the philosophy as you say.
I don't know if it's necessarily a good thing that we keep producing fighters without teaching them about respect and discipline on a societal level.
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>>78421
That's not really true though and it's just something people say to shittalk Eastern martial arts.

>no complicated theory
Hundreds of books and studies have been made going the theory of western martial arts like boxing, fencing, etc.

>no showy techniques
Western martial arts aren't immune to having meme low percentage moves.

>no forcing a style according to a certain philosophy
Western martial arts in general tend to be more oriented to fitting the art to the person rather than the other way around, but it depends on the teacher. There are gyms where the instructor is focused on turning everybody there into fighting clones of themselves.
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>>78421
Muay thai is not a western martial art
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>>78421
Retard take, can tell you don't fight.

Agree that most eastern stuff is complete bullshit now, whether it always was or has been diluted over time. If your style works, it should work against a trained resisting opponent. If it doesn't its bullshit regardless of where it's from
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>>78444
The spiritual components were attached to the eastern arts much later when they noticed they were inferior, and had to get other customers (eg. spiritually minded, fitness etc.).

>>78449
>That's not really true though
It is.

>>78460
Dutch Muay Thai basically is.

>>78470
>Retard take, can tell you don't fight.
You're a yellow monkey, you don't fight. There's a reason the chinks train their army in MMA instead of kung fu.
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>>78421
>Western martial arts
I don't recall HEMA larpers being dominant in the UFC or anything

also
>no complicated theory, no showy techniques, no forcing a style according to a certain philosophy.
*10th planet rubber guards in your path*
>>
>>78421
Does jujutsu sound like a western word to you retard?
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>>78421
>dutch kb vs traditional thai boxing disproves this theory entirely

/thread
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>>78460
Muay is a fusion of English boxing and SEA traditional kickboxing. It is also interesting in its complete lack of spiritual bullshit precisely because of this. The English turned Muay boran into a spectator sport based around gambling instead of a religious ritual. What Muay became is basically a clone of boxing, stripped of most if not all cultural signifiers and complete with lots of betting, professional fighters who make a living with the sport and the resulting attitude of "whats important is to win". Basically Muay is a banana, it is yellow on the outside and white on the inside.
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>>78669
>English boxing
lol lmao

just a couple of gentlentemen with giant 1800s mustaches, that's muay thai right there
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>>78669
Muay thai's recorded history goes back at least 3 centuries. The idea that cross-training boxing at some point makes it not asian is ridiculous cope from an insecure white person. Just admit the jungle asians did something right.
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>>78556
>had to be fixed by Brazillian monkeys
>even the only karate champion in mma was a brazillian monkey too
>rare for judoka to have success compared to roman greco wrestling

Japan is a meme and you know it
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>>78693
Greco, of all things? The dominant wrestling styles are freestyle and catch. Greco-roman isn't shorthand for western wrestling, it's a specific ruleset that is way more restrictive than even Judo.

By your logic, catch would be a japanese art since they're the ones who actually applied it in an MMA context for the first time and are to this day the only ones that train it. Or maybe you can just admit that this regional shit flinging is stupid. There's no sport that's more international than MMA.
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>>78542
Some of the homegrown western arts are so overstuffed with theory and bullshit it would make a chunner blush. SCARS, Systema, Krav Maga, and my personal favorite 52 Blocks.

OP is about 50 years behind the times. This was a debate people were having when Gene Lebell was fighting boxers. Everyone cross trains these days, the common MMA constituent arts are about 50/50 east and west. No one fucking cares.
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>>78635
Dutch MT usually wins against Thai MT.
Also Thai MT is basically Savate. This is how it looked before European influence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnM3bHs3GL0
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>>78696
Systema isn't western, Krav Maga is simple as fuck (If you don't learn the civilian BS that just exists to make money) and 52 Blocks is Afro-Chinese, not western.
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>>78698
>russian
>not western
>dirty boxing made up by black guys in new york
>not western

Krav maga seems loaded with theory and a huge variety of techniques. The military version might be different, but the the civilian version is an actually existing art and is definitely western. It meets the criteria.
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>>78697
I think you're talking out of your ass with the dutch favoritism. Those guys are hard as fuck, but unless you have match statistics there is no reason to take that seriously.
And fucking lol man have you ever seen savate? It literally means shoe. They don't kick with their shins and there's no knees or elbows or clinch. The lengths you people will reach are absurd. This is like when afro centrists claim hannibal was black.
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>>78680
The codified rules and techniques were honed in the late 18th and 19th century in england, and the sport went through most of its development into the modern sport there.

>>78687
>Muay thai's recorded history goes back at least 3 centuries. The idea that cross-training boxing at some point makes it not asian is ridiculous cope from an insecure white person. Just admit the jungle asians did something right.
Literally just look at the history of Muay, its early forms were basically unrecognisable to modern Muay. Including shit like grappling, and it had very little in the way of fist striking, mostly kicks and knees. You can still see this today in the way that kicks are scored much higher than punches in MT. The modern idea of MT only came about through dudes from europe bringing in boxing. This means that MT is a classic fusion martial art, like how kickboxing is a fusion of MT and karate.
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>>78693
You're a clueless retard.
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>>78702
I'm curious how you've tracked the influence of boxing here. How much is Muay Thai's modern clinching and classic plodding footwork boxing inspired? That MT had some boxing influence in the 20th century seems correct, but I wonder if the claim you're making is oversized. Do you have a book or series of articles or something that goes into this? I wouldn't call Judo western for example despite the fact that Kano took some cues from wrestling and even brought over a few techniques. I think we could all agree that would be overstating what happened.
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>>78705
You can just look up Muay Thai and Muay Boran on Wikipedia and it is there. The thing that boxing influenced was.... the boxing part of MT. In the punches section on Wikipedia it talks about the OG MT punches basically being open palm crosses. Also as I said lots of traditional martial arts often included grappling, as grappling is of course a large part of fighting, and OG muay thai was no exception. Although punching is just one part of MT it happens to be one of the two largest parts. The ring, the removal of the grappling aspect and all of the handwork is a product of boxing's influence. Is the sport from SEA, yes, absolutely, there are many parts of Muay that are not found in boxing but are in Muay Boran and other traditional SEA martial arts.

However this doesn't change the fact that all of the fist work, which makes up a massive part of MT and dramatically influences fighting styles by allowing another way of attacking the head and keeping good range (otherwise you either have to make a big kick without distracting the opponent or get in really close and do elbows and knees) is purely from Europe. Yes there were a couple of punches, but they were really shit and wild, which is why kicks were and still are king scoring wise. That's why MT is a fusion, because not only does MT look really different from the OG stuff in terms of rules, the presence of a good fist striking system really changes how you fight.
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>>78695
Even compared to greco roman NOT even including freestyle judo has low representstion in mma and most judoka with success are also sambo players thats yhe point. As ti the catch wrestling yes this shows how bad the original japanese jujitsu is... That the Japanese to defeat the Gracies was a catch wrestler. Now everyone knows what the Gracies did should be more accurately called Brazillian judo, or even just ground judo, but you were the one who brought up jujitsu.
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>>78693
>>had to be fixed by Brazillian monkeys
BJJ lost to judo. Ever heard of a guy called Kimura?
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>>78731
Yes you are right about that. That is the only response with a good point imo.
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guaranteed the guy who made this thread looks like pic related
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>>78421
The only people who compare martial arts to each other are fat losers that don't train. OP is a faggot, confirmed.
>there is no complicated theory
retard
>no showy technique
retard
>no forcing a style
retard
Again, OP is a faggot.
>>
>>78752
>The only people who compare martial arts to each other are fat losers that don't train.
you don't have to be so mean to the gracies bro
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>>78753
I truly love jiu jitsu but by no means am I a Gracie fan (sparing a few individuals like Roger or Kron)
I love when BJJ people piss and shit their pants about respect and honor, while the Gracies were going around trying to fight everyone all the time and dojo storming kek
>>
>>78693
>even the only karate champion in mma was a brazillian monkey too
There's been at least 5 UFC champions with karate bases

>Lyoto Machida (the only one that most people talk about)
>Bas Rutten
>Georges St. Pierre
>Robert Whittaker
>Rich Franklin

>>78726
>judo has low representation in mma
Correlation =/= causation
There's not as many judoka in MMA compared to wrestlers, but there's also way more wrestlers who move into MMA compared to judoka.

>That the Japanese to defeat the Gracies was a catch wrestler
see >>78731
>>
>>78780
Machida is the only one people talk about because he is the one you can visually identify as using karate. There is no point where Bas Ruttens karate base ends and muay thai begins.
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>>78421
>no theory
Have you ever seen a historical fencing manual? One approach to fencing was entirely based on mathematics and geometry to determine the most efficient angles of attack and defense.
It was also later believed that no man should pick up a sword before learning how to dance because of the footwork carried over from dancing to fencing that made them better sword fighting.
There's a lot of depth and theory going into European Martial arts.
Now, do they teach philosophy as a secondary component of fighting? Not that I remember. However, it wasn't really until after the Sengoku Jidai that martial techniques became martial arts. There's a distinct shift in several combat systems changing their names from "X-technique" to "X-art" such as Jujitsu becoming Judo. Jujitsu meaning gentle-technique (approximately) and judo mean The Gentle Way. Neither of which are very gentle when employed in a fight. But Judo became a way to teach students how to live a good life by teaching them martial arts and then using the theory of the art as a way to live life as well.
Why the shift, though? Because life became more peaceful and there wasn't as much of a need for it. Most of the x-jitsu martial arts died after WW2 because of the banning of their practice by the USA. The philosophy only became integral to the martial arts after the martial arts lost their real purpose, which was to kill people. Eastern martial arts used to be exactly the same way as European martial arts are now. The difference is that we stopped teaching martial arts in the west because of the gun, not because of relative peace times making them otherwise useless. European martial arts died before they needed to adapt to a "philosophy" approach of teaching to keep the martial arts alive through peace-time.
That's all there is to it, really. I'm absolutely sure someone could prove me wrong about philosophy not being a big part of some Western Martial arts, if they dug deep enough into the manuscripts.
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>>78669
They literally do a ethnic dance ritual before each fight and come out in spiritually significant costume, go watch Muay Thai fights in Thailand not some American with tattoos and a chronic masturbation problem.
>>
>>80936
Exactly. Everyone wants to fight on the coomerking's birthday event.
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>>78421
"Western" martial arts are superior because televised sports coupled with international travel allows an unprecedented amount of competition and technique exchange.
>>
>>78421
That exact thought process plus the fact that all of it revolves around 1v1 is why MMA, UFC, etc.. Are not martial arts. The term MMA was a mistake. These are combat sports. If you can't tell the difference, you're part of the problem.
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>>78421
Why I would I engage in this activity if I can reach your eye? Legitimate question. Were this a actual fight and not a sport match, would an attack to something like an eye or the throat not be more influential? I would think a thumb in a socket or fingers round a trachea would be significantly easier to accomplish in this entangled state, versus some convoluted multi-step process to achieve an advantageous position of embrace from which to encourage submission.
>>
>>81056
you sound like a retard
>>81057
it worked even back in ufc 1 which had almost no rules, you're slurping down the usual "street fighting" narrative parroted by people who don't actually fight
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>>81057
Very obvious you don't fight
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God this board is terrible.
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>>81059
An easy eye gouge, fishhook or ballgrab are easy fight enders. It's obvious you don't fight.
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>>81069
if someone can win fights without doing those things, then they can win fights even easier while doing those things
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>>81069
lol, thats why it happens all the time on da streetz instead of just punching someone in the face

Oh wait...
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>>78976
No one who actually knows what classical Muay Thai is would accuse Bas Rutten of using it. Kyokushin karate is so influential on kickboxing that a lot of western kickboxers are actually using techniques and attitudes derived mainly from it ancestry wise rather than Muay Thai, even if they *think* they're using Muay Thai
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>>78421
>western martial arts
>posts mma pic
>which is most often a mix between wrestling, bjj and mt

This is the dumbest post. Go back to Sherdog
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>>81057
>>81069
Eye gouges aren't a substitute for knowing how to fight. webm related

the guy whose fingers are buried knuckle deep in the other guy's eye socket is the one who loses the fight
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>>81087
That's the most egregious I've seen in the UFC. Jesus Christ. Which fight was this?
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>>81088
>That's the most egregious I've seen in the UFC.
You mean other than every fight jon jones has ever been involved in?
https://youtu.be/Me561PrMRp4

For the record I think this is how you should do eye gouges in a street fight. I remember a terminal lance comic making fun of this move but its a legitimately good strategy if you use it correctly. Throw out your fingers like a jab to poke their eyes then cross them in the face while theyre blind. Its the punch you dont see that knocks you out after all.
>>
>>81087
That's nit even a proper eye gouge. Aproper eye gouge is jamming your thumb with conviction right into your opponents tear duct so you dislodge and pop out their eyeball. The reason most people don't use it isn't skill level but because it is psycho shit and gross.
>>
>>81101
The eye poke in striking is dirty but at least it's fairly brief. It's a way to pussyfoot around ref ruling with regards to open hands. Give yourself a permanent advantage because even good refs won't dock a point. Just wave your open hand in their face and they'll gouge themselves. In that .webm though it's just a genuinely determined gouging. He feels the eye out and just digs in, brutal.
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>>78780
>There's been at least 5 UFC champions with karate bases
plus Stephen Thompson who is someone who really should have been UFC champion but for who it never came together
and he's 100% karate too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sMuVAzNgt0
>>
>>81058
>>81059
>>81080
>>81087
>>81088
I find it funny for that the deniers simply reject the idea and essentially imply that I'm some kind of keyboard warrior making bullshit up and perpetuating certain narratives on this board... That's not an answer, my willingness to fight, or my experience was never in question and doesn't affect the truth... It stands to reason that anything that was banned from your sport was done so for a reason, I wonder what that could be? Anywho, keep grumbling about street larpers, yalls denial and aggression is all the confirmation I need that I'm right.

>>81069
>>81072
>>81102
Thank you for at least considering what I said. I agree, it is psycho shit. But it would work is the point.
>>
>>81138
coping larper
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>>81138
Literally "I just see red, jiu jitsu doesn't work on me" lmao. Would love to see you go spar and get humbled
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>>81139
>>81142
My name is Sean Michael Pollard, I live in Cherry Valley California at 93822 1/2 High St... If any of you actually has the time/money to waste, come at me. Keep calling me a larper though, that really hurts, but I'm sure it's helping you cope. How fragile yalls egos are.
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>>81142
Even your retorts are restricted by your own shit. "Oh I can't wait to watch you spar and get humbled"... So what you going to do when I dont follow any of the rules for your sparring? Yall have straight up cult mentality and don't even realize it.
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>>81145
This is the resort of the mentally weak and scared... I never said that I'm a great fighter, never said anything about my abilities. Merely said that in a real fight, I would be more worried about eye gouges than submissions, for obvious logical reasons... And you twats find that idea so threatening that, picrel, is your response... Mkay, pussies. Please go on about how superior at fighting you are by avoiding/deriding discussions you don't like online.
>>
>>81144
If someone can beat you without dirty fighting, then they will spank you even harder with it.
>>
>>81144
Have you ever fought anyone who was trained?

Generally a bad idea to piss someone off and escalate the level of violence when you are weaker. It's why pocket knives are bad self defense weapons, you are increasing the deadliness of the encounter but not ensuring your own victory. By using dirty moves you are opening yourself up to them as well.
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>>81148
Yes I have, now explain to me captain obvious, how that contributes to the discussion at all? No shit, anything you use could be used against you... So really all you said was, untrained retards regularly have their shit used against them. Follow your logic dipshit, by that line of thought you can say the exact same thing about harsh words and love taps. Fuck outta here with that retarded shit. So I'm supposed to fight nice in the hopes my opponent will return the favor?
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>>81138
>yalls denial and aggression is all the confirmation I need that I'm right.
>be retard
>get called a retard
>"heh, that means im right"
>>
>>81143
>califag
lol, youre still a larper
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>>81150
>implying they were right
>Using only mean words and no sound debate
>gets his own greentext out of order
>Unironically implying that they are witty for ineffectually using a really tired trope only clung to by the most incel of incels.

FTFY
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>>81151
Who the fuck would larp living in this shithole? Shit I wish.
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>>81152
>nooo not the hecking mean words
kek, and you believe you'd be good in a fight
>>
>>81154
Welp, I'm out of this thread, when it devolves into 1 butthurt anon desperately twisting my words in an effort to sound tough online I see no potential for real discussion in the thread anymore. Remember pussy, my address is up there. You could do so much with that info I volunteered. But we both know you'll do nothing.
>>
>>81155
Turk is that you? Take your meds
>>
>>81155
>internet tough guy unironically saying "fite me irl see what happens" claims other people are trying to look tough
Lol
>>
>>81149
No, what I'm saying is a trained fighter will most likely kick the shit out of you regardless of you using dirty moves. By trying to guage out his fucking eyeballs you are escalating the fight to deadly levels though. At which point he will probably knock you out then smash your stupid head into the pavement
>>
>>81146
A real fight involving you would only be two hits
I hit you, you hit the ground, no need to worry about eye-gouges, faggot
>>
>>81067
>fuck roasties! They'll never get my golden seed now!
>>
>>81145
Don't Super Mutants just grow eyes back?
>>
>>116911528

Test
>>
>>78421
>western martial arts are superior
well, lets put that to the test with commonly used martial arts in MMA
>Western MA or Western derived martial arts in MMA
kickboxing, boxing, wrestling
>eastern MA or eastern derived MA in MMA
muay thai, BJJ (judo derived), Judo, Karate
huh. if you consider the fact that every MMA fighter needs to know BJJ out of necessity. I'd say eastern MAs are doing just fine.
>no showy techniques
lmao have you ever seen a freestyle wrestling match on the ground? A good 80% of freestyle wrestling is useless in MMA. Wrestling's value is that it makes greatly conditioned athletes (because of the NCAA culture) who can takedown people for the groundnpound or to get a mount position; but wrestling on its own against someone with BJJ will just get the wrestler inside guard.
What khabib showed is that the best current overall grappling MA is sambo, which is basically Judo with leg takedowns and submissions below the belt. BJJ kinda lost its edge when it gave up on having great standup game.
>>
>>78780
>>78726
a large part of judokas not going into MMA is:
1. IJF notoriously prohibits the top level judokas from competing in any other fighting martial arts.
2. countries where Judo is huge (japan, France, Russia,etc.) does not have a large MMA scene
3. Judo is huge, good judokas have little reason to take the risk and switch to MMA. Its probably has the biggest martial arts competition scene right behind boxing
4. gi to nogi transition is also obviously a huge factor. judokas train with Gi and being able to grip and grab shirts. this puts them in an inherent disadvantage compared to wrestlers who don't use shirt grips or BJJ which regularly trains nogi.
In general, MMA will always suffer from the fact that it won't get the best of the best in a particular MA because those people have no reason to leave behind their, say, heavyweight boxing world championship, and move to MMA, but because of the IJF restriction, this issue becomes exacerbated in judo.
Reason number 3 is actually huge and can explain why so many wrestlers go to MMA. while freestyle wrestling does have a huge college culture in America, there really isn't these international IJF-like world competitions outside the olympics for freestyle wrestling where you can have a large base of professional athletes.
>>
>>81251
IFJ is destroying the sport and are shitting on the martial spirit at the same time. I give them 50 years before they collapse on themselves for all the bullshit they pull
>>
>>81287
this honestly. They took the complete art of judo complete with the groundwork of BJJ and a complete jacketed standup game, and basically made it into a niche sport that only deals with throwing, hold-downs, and occasionally armbars. I can forgive judo for making competitions standup based since standup competitions are very hard to pair with ground game - you don't want a newaza specialists that just sit down and avoid the standup fight - but it was completely inexcusable to get rid of leg attacks just because the Olympic committees are hacks.
DESU i think the closest thing we have to a good grappling ruleset is sambo where you get rewarded for both groundwork and standup. Its not judo where its just a standup match with little to no groundwork, but at the same time its not BJJ where half the time one guy starts sitting down and immediately pulls guard because they know jackshit about standup
>>
>>81287
That might be optimistic desu. I think it's likely that the IFJ maintains their grip on the sport for the foreseeable future and that Judo continues down the Olympics dominated, spectator friendly (at least that's the goal) track. I hate a lot of their decisions, but they are effective at keeping Judo profitable and on the world stage. There's too much money on the line for them to fail. For an example of a sport where management is genuinely snuffing out the sport, look at weightlifting.

It probably would have been best for the art if it had never entered the Olympics. Besides the times where Japan can force it in like they did with Karate. The guys that run Kendo have the right idea. Integrity of the art first, and if the rest of the world doesn't want to watch it, fuck em then.
>>
>>81298
>Integrity of the art first, and if the rest of the world doesn't want to watch it, fuck em then.

That mindset would help a lot of sports and martial arts in general
>>
>>81251
good post
>>
>>78421
MMA isn't even purely western, It has strong influences from several Asian arts, and the Japanese scene is about as old as the American one.

Furthermore if you compare books and manuals of "traditional" European fighting arts to Asian ones you tend to find more similarities than differences, including long treks into theory and even esoterism if you go back far enough.
>>
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