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File: Messerkampf-05.jpg (77 KB, 1000x667)
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So we know by now that in unarmed arts, full contact disciplines rule supreme.
What about armed encounters, with knives or sticks? Any data about those?
Russo-Japanese war was a mix of kendo and German fencing (Gunto jutsu or whatever), WW2 people used fencing, in Vietnam they used Escrima, police still use escrima etc. etc.
Then you got the lamb method nightstick, Piper system for knife etc. etc.

Realistically, people won't be using swords anymore. The weapon options today are knife, stick (Any kind of cudgel, telescope batons, right up to baseball bats), maybe machetes if you're really hardcore.

What do you think? What should we train to prepare for weapon against weapon fights?
>>
It is said fencing is not terribly effective in a real fight, and even back in the Renaissance, the "untrained but strong streetfighter rips apart black belt" phenomenon was widely known in fencing circles.

Escrima, well, the Philippines were attacked lots of times but also conquered each time so it doesn't seem to be terribly effective.

Kendo, IIRC, it is not considered very effective IRL, but that's maybe because it has become a game of tag and isn't about power anymore, which will be a drawback in a real fight.

An effective style would be English singlestick, which is basically just learning by sparring (Certain Renaissance Italian schools used the same method) with very basic, simple drills for total beginners, and that seems to show up in modern military knife fighting, too. However, it was said in the 18th and 19th century that the British "sparring" style was not at all superior to the French "drilling" style, they were about equally successful in competitions or duels.
>>
The most legit knife system I've seen is Shivworks founded by this guy Craig Douglas. I'm speaking as a spectator here, I've never trained with him. But it seems like the sort of thing that maybe possibly could help. Basically they go as alive as possible without actually stabbing eachother and the foundation of the system is wrestling. Which makes sense to me. If you do knife fencing you are probably going to end up with a double kill. If you want to control your opponent's blade your best bet is closing the distance and controlling that knife hand. Compared to some of the fancier eskrima stuff with their crazy disarms and distance slashing, it seems more realistic. If I had to place a bet it'd be on the wrestler. What footage exists of dog brothers gatherings where they use aluminum practice knives it very quickly descends into a grappling match as well.

No clue about stick fighting. Machete fighting potentially has a lot of carryover with sabre fencing.
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>>72099
>What footage exists of dog brothers gatherings where they use aluminum practice knives it very quickly descends into a grappling match as well.
Yeah because they disregard any hits. Dogbrothers is total BS.

>Hurr I only regard hits that hurt
>Durr I'm gonna use lightweight sticks and body armor
Yeah no shit it comes to grappling. Let me use an axe handle instead and try again.
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>>72105
I think the way it works is you can bring anything as long as someone agrees to fight you. When you show up with your axe handle please bring a friend to record.
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>>72115
Injuring your opponent is against the rules in DBMA.

>One rule only: Be friends at the end of the day. This means no one should spend the night in the hospital, and everyone should leave with the IQ that they came with.
>>
>>72089
Context of the fight is supremely important. Are you attacked at home, in the streets, is it planned, how many people, etc.
If you use any kind of short weapon, you might as well start with grappling, this is exactly what was done in Europe and Japan, grappling was "grappling with knives", no substitutes.

If you have the opportunity to fight a knive or a stick/staff with a sword you absolutely should as they are much much better weapon. Even machete if it comes to that. Keep in mind that thrust centric system tends to be better in 1v1 but you absolutely need cutting capacity for anything else.
>>
>>72099
>>72105
Dog Brothers look more like conditioning and working over fighting psychology.
It's potentially a dangerous method though as it might gives you the false impression you can power through pain or blade weapons.
What happens when the other person absolutely wants to damage you and will actually use the knives, chop-chop or hardwood stick on you and you base yourself on ultimately friendly light weapon sparring with high intensity.
It's nice as it's own thing, but it's not really self-defense preparation.
>>
>>72089
compound bow. Your dead at 30 meters plus away.
>>
>>72092
>It is said fencing is not terribly effective in a real fight, and even back in the Renaissance, the "untrained but strong streetfighter rips apart black belt" phenomenon was widely known in fencing circles.
Name one instance where this happened.
>>
I have watched some Kali trainings and they were very legit. No bullshido, except the unarmed parts.
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>>72089
weapon effectiveness divides into ttwo factors, lethality and concealability/transportation
spears are the best if you wanna kill someone, knofes are the best if you wann acarry a weapon in an easy and stealthy way, swords are somewhere in the middle
so in modern times i should say knifes are the best option
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>>72252
Literally all fencing books of the era have advice on how to avoid such a situation.
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>>72285
So fencing books telling you to be wary of untrained but strong people and how to fight them (colpi di villano, schielhau) is proof that fencing is ineffective and masters were routinely ripped apart but said buffalo...?
This is just plain stupid now and also this is not actual instances of it happening but theorizing about it.
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>>72092
>Escrima, well, the Philippines were attacked lots of times but also conquered each time so it doesn't seem to be terribly effective.
Damn who knew knife & stick fighting doesn't work well against GUNS & CANNONS.
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>>72287
>and masters were routinely ripped apart but said buffalo...?
That's what the books say. Also we're talking rapier/smallsword era here, not Liechtenauer.
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>>72302
Back then people regularily used swords on both sides.
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>>72312
>That's what the books say
Give a quote
>Also we're talking rapier/smallsword era here, not Liechtenauer.
Lmao
>Many People say that with Sword in Hand the Rules of the School are not observed, and that 'tis sufficient to have a good Heart: It is certain that People who are subject to this Error, are not capable of following the Rules which are to be acquired only by putting a good Theory in Practice; which by frequent Use, disposes the Eye and the Part of Executing so well, that it is almost impossible to act otherwise: And as to the Practice of Schools and of the Sword, 'tis the same; for no one ought to do any thing with the Foil, but what he knows by Experience to be without Risque, according to his Rules. In some Cases, it is true, what is esteemed good in one, is not in the other. For Example: Thrusts with the Foil are good only on the Body, and with the Sword they are good every where; and that in an Assault with the Foil, the joining is reckoned as nothing, whereas in Battle 'tis the Seal of the Victory; but except in that, it should be alike in every Thing.
>Others say that if they had to do with experienced Men, they would not give them Time to put themselves in Guard; as if a Man who is expert were not always on his Guard, being more knowing, and better disposed, not only to place himself at once, by the Habit that all his Parts have contrasted, but also to surprise, and to avoid being surprised, by the Knowledge he has of Time and Measure: On the contrary, an unskilful Person being ignorant of both, is easily catch'd; besides, that his Parts being unaccustomed to place themselves regularly, or at once, must always be in a continual Motion, vainly seeking their Place, by which they give the Time, and would lose it if it were given to them.
>>
>>72089
muay thai.
They historiacally strapped swords to their shins
>>
>>72313
Which side had the guns tho?
>>
>>72326
That sounds completely retarded and I believe it.
>>
>>72312
>Also we're talking rapier/smallsword era here
So like what? 1553 to late 19th century? Cool you'll have zero trouble pointing at an actual manual saying such a thing happened and isn't just a mental exercise then!
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>>72334
From Spanish occupation onwards: Both.
>>
>>72287
Fencing is useless joke. It has zero practicality and is fucking boring to watch. Seethe and cope somewhere else.
>>
>>72481
>Fencing is useless joke. It has zero practicality
Sport fencing or HEMA/Buhurt/SCA stuff?
Because sticks, long sticks, machetes, knives and mace-like objects still exist today and are still used, especially in 3rd world countries like the US or UK
>>
>>72481
Martial arts in general are "useless" in the modern day unless youre about to tell me its a good idea to try and disarm a knife wielding maniac instead of just shooting them. Being "useful" in real combat isnt the point for most people unless theyre deluding themselves. Stop being retarded.
>>
>>72092
>untrained but strong streetfighter
Experienced streetfighter or brawler is not untrained anymore.

Also french canne de combat is for faggots and has style points for cool jump attacks.
>>
Supposedly, jogo do pau mops the floor with kendo, escrima etc. etc.
>>
>>72639
Puerto Rican Judo shits on all of them.
>>
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>>72089
I always thought "Put 'Em Down, Take 'Em Out" seemed like a very useful knife fighting book. Not because it teaches you to be a highly skilled knife fighter, but because it teaches an extremely simple system that can be implemented by fucking anyone no matter how pants-shitting scared they are. Battle tested in prisons across the world. Not the book, the methods the book draws its info from lol.

Would someone trained like this defeat an escrima knife fighter who's been training for years in a 1v1 duel? Doubt it. But it would teach you something simple, effective, and usable with only a few hours training.
>>
>>72089
For the mental benefit of it?
*cough* weaponized card-scaling *cough*
(You're going to think I'm just fucking with you on this, but I'm really not.)
>>
>>72564
If someone has a knife you will get stabbed 90% of the time you try to fight them
>>
>>72736
The Fairbairn system was actually proven in WW2. I doubt actual prisoners read a meme book to prepare them for shanking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65oVqhF773Y
>>
>>73016
This.
That's the first thing my teacher told me about knife fighting.
Basically, don't if at all possible. If you have to, you're gonna get cut. Don't worry about that there's no way around it.
Worry about cutting the other guy more and faster.
>>
I'm sorely tempted to develop a martial art composed of the tools commonly found in a pizza shop.
Any ideas?
Like, bench-knives are rather obvious, that'd be pretty much similar to kung fu fangs, but what the hell would you do with the rocker-cutter, for example? Or the wooden paddles?
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>>73120
>fangs
Fans*
>>
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>>72089
I trained Kali for a year at a free college course. It was pretty universal from hand combat to knives to short swords/machetes to (sword like long) sticks.
We only really learned defensive stuff, since the coach didn't want to teach offensive combat. Meh. But it was fun overall and felt like a good system that could be applied to many different situations.





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