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Singlesticks on the high seas edition.

>What is HEMA?
HEMA stands for Historical European Martial Arts, sometimes also called Historical Fencing.
It's reconstructing how to fight with swords, daggers, polearms and other weapons based on old European fighting treatises

>What does it look like?
Inside the World of Longsword Fighting - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zueF4Mu2uM
Back to the source - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DBmNVHTmNs
Martin Fabian Sparring - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8QlbKfX84k

>Where can I find these treatises?
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Main_Page
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Weapons

>Where can I find HEMA clubs near me?
https://www.hemaalliance.com/club-finders
https://hroarr.com/train/clubs-gear/club-finder/
https://ifhema.com/ifhema-members/

Last thread: >>64940
>>
Yeah I do Liechtenauer, by which I mean I stand in left Pflug/langort, have no footwork, and nervously cut tiny right oberhaus when opponent approaches.
>>
>>70738
longsword is literally the worst weapon with the worst people in HEMA, change my mind
>>
>>70739
We all know that cutlass is the weapon of free thinkers and sexual liberators
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>>70741
>cutlass
dangerously based, short weapon enjoyers rise up!
>>
>>70754
I like dussack
>>
What do you guys do for strength/conditioning? Just some basic lifts in gym like squats/bench, etc. Anything special?
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>>70759
All I really do is squats, bench and run. I run at least 9 miles a week generally
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>>70758
good taste
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>>70761
lmao me too
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>>70735
Does anyone have a diagram of the single stick guards and cuts for reference?
>>
>>70844
>>
>>70851
Thanks anon
>>
>>70738
>left Pflug
I fucking wish, those faggots all stand in right Pflug as well. It's Liechtenauer via two lessons of foil or one Kurosawa movie.
>>
>>70893
>right Pflug
That requires you to cross your arms and lead with the left foot, nobody does that shit
>>
>>70759
Mostly kettlebells, bulgarian bags, and macebells. I'm basically an early 20th century carnie wrestler.
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>>70910
based as fuck, I should do that too
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>>70910
>I'm basically an early 20th century carnie wrestler
Does catch count as HEMA?
>>
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Is there any non-gay (read non-french) smallsword?
It's an incredible looking weapon but the fencing is faggy as fuck
>>
>>70975
Fellas, is thrusting gay?
>>
>>70975
What exactly would you consider non-gay smallsword? The french school was dominant because they used the weapon to the best of its ability. That said if you look at slightly later foil there is an italian school as well. Aldo Nadi's "on fencing" is probably the best book there is on foil and it translates well to smallsword for obvious reason.

Keep in mind, although he was a sport fencer aldo nadi was old enough that he fought an actual fucking duel with sharpened epees. He talks about the difference between sport and duel in his book. I consider it an invaluable resource on smallswprd even if it is a little after its time.
>>
>>70980
>What exactly would you consider non-gay smallsword?
Anything non-french, italian is great although a bit late.
Is there no german (or nordic), english or iberian smallsword source that's not based on the french school?
>>
all these guys are 22
>>
>>70975
The obvious answer is McBane. But this is basically asking rapier but no italian or spanish, you're going to severely restrict your options for what reason exactly?

Nadi is also a great answer as the other anon said.

You're trolling anyway.
>>
>>70981
>Is there no german (or nordic), english or iberian smallsword source that's not based on the french school?
The french were the best at it so... yes probably but also why?
>>
>>70985
I was stupid enough to forgot Hope. There's quite a well documented evolution of his style so you may want to check between the new or old method of his. Look at the Linacres school of fencing, last time I checked they tons of things about Hope.

Also, both him and McBane are quite early, being beginning of the 18th c.
>>
>>70987
>Hope
Very interesting, thanks a lot for that!
>>
>>70981
Do we count Angelo(s) as Italian or as British?
>>
>>70905
Are you a lefty or something? Left Pflug is Pflug with the left foot forward obviously, for a normal person that's the crossed-hands one. Right Pflug is basically-Jodan.
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>>71064
Left Pflug means your sword is on the left in every single club I've ever encountered
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>>71064
>left pflug is pflug with your sword on your right side
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>>71065
>>71066
>Pflug has your sword oriented to the side instead of straight down the middle
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>>71067
What sort of ass-backward club are you in?
Are you even in a club?
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>>71067
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you retarded?
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>>71058
French since he was published in french and was taught by a parisian master.
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>>71064
Jodan is with the sword above the head, think high vom tag. You are probably thinking of chudan, but that would be kind of incorrect as well, for most people chudan would be posta breve, with the sword straight down the middle, pflug would usually be called seigan, but this is kind of a modern distinction.
>>
>>71064
>Right Pflug is basically-Jodan.
Jodan is vom tag, a high guard. There isn't really an analog japanese guard for pflug, not with the retracted hands like that.
>>
>>71076
>pflug would usually be called seigan
Not with the hands like that no. Kendo seigan is basically chudan with a different higher target. And that's not even going into how different styles like TSKSR have a different seigan (and no chudan).
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>>71078
>Not with the hands like that no.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, do you mean that the hands are still in the middle? Because compared to chudan they usually aren't.
>Kendo seigan is basically chudan with a different higher target.
I wouldn't say so, the hips are usually turned to the left and the left hand is not in the middle. Seigan is also used to refer to the older style of chudan, where the hips and hands were similarly twisted to the left and the tip of the sword was sometimes pointed slightly to the right, kind of towards the opponents left eye.
>And that's not even going into how different styles like TSKSR have a different seigan (and no chudan).
I believe that is the case in most koryu schools. That's why I mentioned that this is mostly a modern distinction.
>>
>>71080
>I'm not sure what you mean by this, do you mean that the hands are still in the middle? Because compared to chudan they usually aren't.
No I meant hands lowered and retracted (in pflug), anchored to the hip, which is not the case in pretty much every chudan/seigan I've seen.

I probably don't know enough about kendo seigan I'll admit. In my own TSKSR's seigan, there's no turn of the hips or hands, blade is aligned with the central line, hands slightly in front, posture much more forward (ala meyer in fact).

Regardless, it's kind of pointless to look for perfect analogs in styles considering even in the various japanese or various european styles, things differed greatly because the strategical framework was different, without even talking about the weapons in themselves. In the grand scheme of things, jodan and vom tag are fairly similar, most of the pictorial pflug and seigan aren't really considering pflug's use is largely to protect the hands, though they are indeed the closer analogs (if you consider that langort isn't something you're supposed to actually stand in).
>>
>>71085
>Regardless, it's kind of pointless to look for perfect analogs in styles.
I agree, honestly, I just wanted to dunk on the guy saying that jodan is similar to pflug. I only wanted to mention seigan as an interesting little aside.
>>
>>71070
This clearly shows a left Plow with crossed arms so I don't know why you're saying Anon is wrong.
>>
Does anyone know what this is broadsword/saber guard is supposed to look like?
>>
>>71064
>Left Pflug is Pflug with the left foot forward
???
>>71065
>Left Pflug means your sword is on the left in every single club I've ever encountered
literally this, at least all over Europe and in the sources
>>
>>71086
>I agree, honestly, I just wanted to dunk on the guy saying that jodan is similar to pflug. I only wanted to mention seigan as an interesting little aside.
I'm not going to pretend I was doing otherwise, the seigan bit was interested to me at the very least.
>>
>>71091
>Left Pflug is Pflug with the left foot forward
He must be doing it like this
>>
Never cared much about longsword but that's interesting, according to Lew
>Item, on the left side position yourself in the Plow thus: set the right foot fore and hold your sword under you near your left side, on your left hip
He does't explicitly call it left Pflug, but it's the 'Pflug on the left side'

Meanwhile Meyer
>The Right Plough is described as follows, stand with your right foot forward, hold your weapon with the hilt near your forward knee and your point pointing in your opponent’s face, as if you intend to stab him from below. While you are in the Right Plough, step forward with the Left foot and stand similarly to be in the Left Plough.

So with earlier Liechtenauer stuff it's probably(!) left foot forward sword right -> right Pflug
And with Meyer
left foot forward sword right -> left Pflug

But maybe I'm misunderstanding that, so please enlighten me anons
>>
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>>70759
I've become entranced by the olympic lifts. So working on them and squats mainly. Also bicycle to work every day.

Info dump:
Most Hema-people just need anything basic to become a lot better at fencing. Running and kettlebells do wonders. Basic gym work (especially squats, pulls and press) is also great.

A while ago i looked up the science for sport fencing (see image). Plyometrics are great, but one should note that one should have 1.5 bodyweight squat or even double before doing jumps and such according to most S&C sources.

Hema is not as dependent on change of direction and short bursts of speed so there is some differences. One should probably mostly focus on overall strength and do HIIT once or twice a week to begin with.
>>
>>71087
The sword is held on his right side you tard
>>
>>71087
>This clearly shows a left Plow
According to Meyer, yeah
>>
I don’t know why I’m having such trouble visualizing Fourth Guard. The language is so weird.
>>
>>71094
>>71099
>thread spergs out about farm implements
>turns out Anon was probably just doing Meyer
kek
>>
>>71147
>thread spergs out about farm implements
heh
>>
>>70946
yes
>>
>>71132
What system is this?
>>
>>71230
Singlestick/cutlass/saber
>>
>>70987
>Look at the Linacres school of fencing, last time I checked they tons of things about Hope.
Why is no one doing Hope? At least it looks that way, there are maybe 5-6 videos of Hope's new method and basically no discussion about his stuff online
>>
>>71264
Not much people doing smallsword because it's so close to foil and épée and then most smallsworders are doing french which is the dominant school? Why are there not much people doing french/german rapier? or english longsword, etc...
>>
>>71270
>english longsword
there is such a thing?
>>
>>71559
Behold, George Silver's worst nightmare, long weapons
https://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Ledall_Roll_(Additional_MS_39564)
>>
>>71078
>Kendo seigan is basically chudan with a different higher target
Kendo does not use Seigan-no-kamae, both in terminology and in practice. Seigan is found in Koryu and involves different positioning of the feet, legs, and alignment of the hips/torso. When guarding against a Jodan player, you alter the Chudan stance to cover your opponent's left hand, it's still called chudan.
>>71080
>where the hips and hands were similarly twisted to the left and the tip of the sword was sometimes pointed slightly to the right, kind of towards the opponents left eye.
Funnily enough some of the older Kendo sensei still teach to project the kensen, or tip of the sword, towards your opponent's left eye; as opposed to keeping the tip on-level with the middle of the throat.
>>
>>71572
>When guarding against a Jodan player, you alter the Chudan stance to cover your opponent's left hand, it's still called chudan.
I was taught that that kamae is seigan and looking around online it's often called that.
This might not be official of course, but people still call it that.
>>
>>70851
>>70844
just went through these with the instruction of a schola gladiatora sabre drill video
I don't know if my sabre is heavy or I'm just pathetically weak but after a dozen repetitions my shoulder and arm were so freaking tired
>>
>>71620
Well how much does your saber weigh?


In general though, these exercises are going to be incredibly difficult if you havent practiced them since the body wants to naturally conserve momentum by tard swinging way further out than necessary. Cutting proper and stopping proper requires tensing at times that feel inconvenient but are extremely important when fighting. Your body will adjust. The old school karate guys say you should do 200 punches every day with both hands on a makiwara which is a japanese punching board. Apply that same idea to saber and you should do about 400 cuts everyday from all the different angles of attack in order to train your body.

Naturally I dont think its realistic to swing your saber around that much everyday but you get the idea. more swing equals better body for swinging.
>>
>>71629
supposedly 700g but I sincerely doubt that
it's this
https://www.museumreplicas.com/civilian-saber
>>
>>71629
>>71632
so I just weighed the sword, it's about 800g
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>>71249
Written by singlestick man?
>>
>>71634
I have two sabers, blackfencer made and windlass steelcrafts made with weight difference only 20 grams, but windlass feels and handles like an iron bar and is completely unusable because it's so badly balanced. So it's not always about the weight.
>>
>>71572
>Kendo does not use Seigan-no-kamae, both in terminology and in practice.
Well they sure did in the kendo no kata at the very least considering that the manual written by Takano Sasaburo and Nakayama Hakudo mentions a seigan in the 6th kata (?). It may very well not be used much in shiai, I can understand this.

"Seigan in koryu" doesn't mean much if you don't specify which, it's just a term like "empi" or "tsubame-gaeshi" that a ton of koryu uses and doesn't necessarily means the same posture in one style or another.
>>
>>71643
Written by some anglo subhuman, so why even care?
>>
wtf kind of sword does pascha use?
rapier? smallsword? something different?
>>
>>71798
>wtf kind of sword does pascha use?rapier? smallsword?something different?
Yes.
Basically transitional rapier, something that is somehow between the smallsword and the rapier. Compared to the late 16th c. common rapier of Fabris and the likes, it has less complex hand protection, is shorter (but not short), lighter (but still around 2 pounds unlike the 1 of the smallsword). but with a traditional blade unlike the triangular smallsword.
Maybe look at Reinier van Noort's articles about that...?
>>
>>70754
>>
>>70739
Longsword is literally for dorks who want to larp as their D&D characters.
They just ignore the whole Fechtschul cosmos was basically a Renaissance McDojo and widely criticized for being ineffective in its own time.
>>
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>>71095
>Most Hema-people just need anything basic to become a lot better at fencing.
That's because they're so deconditioned that anything helps.

Why not train like in Renaissance if you're already larping btw?
>>
>>71132
Something like the guy on the right I'd say
>>
>>70844
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtguPjtqddQ
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>>70981
Kreussler, but I dunno if it's available in English.
>>
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>>70987
>>71042
>Hope
Looked into him, seems almost too simple.
Does that hanging guard fencing really work?
Also it's a 'universial' system, with spadroon and backsword also taken into account, right?
>>
>>71914
I don't know that much about Hope but yes, basically he started out as a typical frenchist, then he went on to develop his own thing, his "new method" which is indeed a universal system based on a simple inside / outside dichotomy.
Does it work, well apparently it's alright but it's really up to you to make it work.
>>
>>71914
Hanging guard is one of the safest positions to fight from. The only reason people dont do it more often is because its tiring
>>
Joseph Swetnam is the most based man I've ever seen. That said, is his fencing manual equally as good?
>>
>>70735
any good hema stuff for modern day knife fighting? does bowie knife fighting count as hema?
>pic rel
is the knife i want to fight with, its the British army survival knife
>>
>>72078
Well, it depends what you want. Generally, there are two methods of ancient knife fighting:
1. Wrestling with knives added in
That seems to be the predominant style in the Renaissance.
2. Fencing-based
This is basically just fencing modified for smaller blades, examples would be Italian folk martial arts styles or US WW2 combatives methods. Since Escrima was based on Mediterranean mercenary fencing methods, one could says it belongs to this group as well.

It depends on what you want. In a real knife attack, the Renaissance style might be preferrable because grab and stab is the norm. In a knife vs knife duel, the fencing method will likely fare better, but it's probably rare IRL unless you're a 50s rockabilly.
>>
>>72095
what would these styles be called? i want to search up to learn more. also would wrestling with knifes blend with regular wrestling techniques?
>>
>>72097
>what would these styles be called?
The Italian styles? There are, surprisingly, quite many, with different views. techniques, strategies, goals (duelling vs assassination vs street fighting...) and methods:
>Bastone Genovese (Full system with knife, stick, unarmed)
>Scuola rutata from Sicily
>Cavalieri d`Umiltà from Apulia
>Cielo e meraviglia from Apulia
Just a few.

The mediterranean martial arts world is almost unknown but extremely diverse and interesting.
>>
>>72097
>also would wrestling with knifes blend with regular wrestling techniques?
It looks more like Jiu Jitsu actually, kogusoku and all that old koryu stuff. What we know as wrestling is very young, not older than the 19th century (Greco was created by a Napoleonic soldier for example).
>>
>>72078
>does bowie knife fighting count as hema?
The bowie knife is a distinctly American tradition even considering its European influences, so I don't think it counts as HEMA.

>>72095
>it's probably rare IRL unless you're a 50s rockabilly
Knife duels are rare in the western world and less pragmatic IMO despite being given more focus in knife defense classes. However, knife duels are still relatively common in 3rd world countries in South America, Africa, and Southeast Asia. You could easily pull up over a dozen on whatever LiveLeak equivalent site of it happening. It's still worth learning in my book, though learning to defend against the grab-and-stab is more important.
>>
>>72078
>does bowie knife fighting count as hema?
>The bowie knife is a distinctly American tradition even considering its European influences, so I don't think it counts as HEMA.
Of course that'll entirely upon what is "historical", what is the time frame. Some people judge that WW2 combatives can be said to be HEMA, I would say that anything that is beyond the age of the oldest living person might be a decent idea of "historical", before the 20th c. is sensible as a soft barrier.
Then what is European, it might well be strictly in Europe or more like "western" in which case american traditions which are arguably largely taken from Europe might apply. There is also the case of colonial era fencing, especially the dispute between spanish and colonial destreza, with Rada and other sources located in Peru, etc. So this is an historical discussion in itself.

In the end, one of the major point of the HEMA movement is that there is no governing body. You'll find a lot of people agreeing that bowie knife is interesting and worth an inquiry and even if people think that it's not HEMA, you don't really need to care. HEMA is mostly a methodology, starting from a source, hence "historical" because it uses the historical method.
The problem there is finding a legit bowie knife source...
>>
>>72114
>It looks more like Jiu Jitsu actually
Heres a fun little anecdote, I do judo as well as HEMA and had practiced but never really used sode tsurikomi goshi until I got into hema dagger. Multiple times I found my self eith my opponent grabbing my weapon hand and me grabbing theres. The first time I did like a double take before going "oh wait I know this position" then dumping them on their ass.

For those unfaniliar with the technique, here you go.
https://youtu.be/QsmAxpmYLOI
>>
>>72131
I'd say pre WW2 is HEMA, anything after is modern. WW2 changed lots and lots of stuff in martial arts, just compare Boxing, Kendo and Karate before and after. 1920s boxing is basically a different style that is more like what we consider a martial art.
>>
>>72188
That reasonable as well. The only issue coming up is, why would you bother HEMAing WW2 stuff and around when you can have the direct lineages of this stuff like pre-war kendo, Fairbairn combatives, Applegate's, Nadi's students etc. A proven reliable direct lineage, especially one that isn't too old will imho be superior with trying to HEMA your way through. That's the same deal with classical fencing for instance.





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