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File: Martial Arts Ranking.png (388 KB, 813x431)
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Thoughts?
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>>62783
Check em
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>>62783
Boxing and wrestling need to be in A tier, judo should be in B tier, switch Kung fu with capoeira and send Krav Maga to D tier and lethwei to B tier.
>>
Capoeira is infinitely more usable than being taught by a sweaty guy in camo pants.
Judo should be in B. Wrestling in A. BJJ in B. Kung Fu it depends. If it's shit like Wing Chun then D or F but Sanda or Shuai jiao are B or A tier.
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>>62783
No mention of a weapon art like hitting people with sticks?
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>>62801
All meme tier
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>>62791
90%agree
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>>62783
what of them do you recomend to start at 24 just for fun
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>>62887
BJJ
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>>62794
Wrestling is a meme. Once you take a guy down wtf do you even do next?
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>>62783
>putting nutsmash-kickboxing krav maga in the same tier as fucking Judo and Karate
Never heard of Lethwei

Would put Muay Thai, Boxing, Karate, Wrestling, Judo and BJJ in A tier because if you know any of them skillfully you stand an equal chance, all else equal, of winning a fight against the others, and they are all "alive" martial arts that can function with resistance.
Drop crab mango because it's a fucking meme
Who on earth practices JKD? Drop it
Beyond the completely arbitrary definition Bruce Lee gave it of basically being any time you mix martial arts together for the purpose of effectiveness, I mean.

Only consolation is breaking up Karate by technique
Kyokushin practitioners will be able to take a hit much better than McDojo-Do practitioners, for example.
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>>62913
Force into turtle position
Knees and elbows to the head
Be like Dan Severn
https://youtu.be/_uOKQM7xe4U
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>>62913
>Once you get a dominant position what do you even do?
Idk basically whatever I want
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>Goju-ryu not S-tier
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>>62783
Krav Maga needs to be much, much lower on the list.
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>>62916
They don't teach you that in wrestling
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Here's the updated list
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>>62783
>lethwei over muay thai
>boxing and wrestling in b tier
>judo in c tier
>capoeira lower than kung fu and tkd
>krav maga and jkd even on the list
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>>62944
It doesn't take a genius to figure out.
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>>62783
Roll B into A
Judo to A
No sambo? Mix of judo and striking is pretty versatile
Everything else = recreation/philosophy, can't take them too seriously
Hate these lists... reinforce smooth brain linear thinking. this isn't an RPG with class specialization
Should learn the finer points of several styles so you don't think like this
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>>62791
>>62794

Boxing and wrestling should not be in A tier simply because they dont use all of the parts of the body. This meme that boxing and wrestling are somehow on par with things like Muay Thai has to end. If that was the case then MMA would just be filled with boxers and wrestlers instead of people doing Muay Thai and kickboxing and BJJ.
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>>63040
Boxing yes, but wrestling? There were multiple very successful wrestlers in MMA as after you take someone down you can just ground n pound as much as you want.
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>>62993
Kung Fu was that far up as there are styles that are good so even if there are multiple shitty ones, if you pick at random you still have a better chance of finding a good one than in capoeira (where it's 0, it sucks as a martial art).
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>>63040
Wrestling is super dominant as a base in MMA
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>>63043
>>63047
Wrestling is a good "base" in the sense that it is a good thing to train and get really good at. It however doesn't stand by itself in the same way that MT or BJJ do. Unlike with MT where you can have a reasonable hope of just rely on striking abilities in the octagon to knock some fucker out, or BJJ where you can just hope to take someone down and finish them off with submissions wrestling HAS to be supplemented incredibly heavily with striking and submissions. Yes neither of these are brilliant strategies but they are conceptually possible. Wrestling is simply far to restrictive to actually be a good weapon on its own. It HAS to be only a small subset of the overall MMA fighters skills, there is no reasonable hope of just being able to supplement it only a little bit. A pure wrestler is effectively useless compared to an MMA fighter, in a way that a pure MT or BJJ guy isnt, yes they are weak, but not useless.
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>>63040
I cannot comprehend the logic behind claiming wrestling does not use all parts of the body.

But to be pedantic, there are not many martial arts which dont use the entire body. Mostly just "self defense" classes.
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>>63060
As in wrestling has an incredibly restrictive ruleset dipshit, no punches or kicks or elbows or knees. You are even limited in the circumstances where you can grab things.
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>>62946
Looks better. JKD shouldn't be below Krav Maga though.
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>>63061
Literally every martial art is designed by the game created by its generative restrictions.
In otherwords, the moves are designed for the circumstances it was designed to be used it.
Its literally impossible to master everything at once. Within a caged duel format, and most of the generative impositions are expressions of the environment and situation rather than the direct ruleset. There is a lot allowed. In this kind of situation, we have an incredible glut of direct data to work from, and you will see each champion fighter designs their own restrictions. Basically each fighter generates their own system of fighting. With restrictions and specific moves.
No one is totally well rounded.
Your dream is a fantasy.
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>>63081
Correct, Krav Maga should be lowered to D tier.
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>>63061
I don't think Dan Severn or Don Frye needed to go to ground and pound class to learn how to take a dominant position and pound the opponent into bloody bits, considering there was no MMA class when they started. Compared to like a combat sambist they will be less adept at it, true. But beating someone senseless once you take mount, turtle, backmount is pretty intuitive. There's a shitton of street fight footage that ends this way and those guys are not trained martial artists.
>>
If we're being serious about this, the whole tier format is too simple. Things like karate have a big variation in practicality, and there are good schools/teachers and bad ones. Same Overall, the best things to train for effectiveness are martial arts with practical training (sparring, conditioning, etc.), practiced as popular sports with more realistic rulesets are at the top. The more of that you have, the better. There are big differences between the karate trained for full-contact kickboxing, karate that only trains for non-continuous point fighting tournaments, and low-end McDojo karate.
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>>63094
>realistic rulesets
>>
don't want to start a new thread so I will ask here. I want to resume doing martial arts, I trained kyokushin for 5years (I think the dojos I trained at were quite legit, no kids and point sparring only to feel the speed or basics of technique, majority of kumite was hard enough so you could feel the pain but not get any injuries that take weeks to heal). I never tried any grappling based stuff so I figured bjj or judo sound interesting. I'm kind of worried that both arts are mostly just sports now though. Like with judo, newaza is cut short and there are no leg grabs, I've read about similar things happening in jiu jitsu. Is it really that bad as some people make it? I want to train judo or bjj to learn how to fight, not in a cringy
> my body is a weapon, I studied 4000 years of chinese martial arts and can perform a 1000years of pain double inch palm strike
way but as a usefull skill. So obviously I don't want to learn a combat sport that relies on the competition rules and excludes usefull techniques for that reason. Just to be clear, competitions are based but when olympic judo has a rule that you can't stay on the ground for more than 30sec or you can't grab the legs and people don't train and spar using those techniques it is pretty cringe. Should I just try multiple gyms or maybe just straight up ask the trainers about this stuff?
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>>63109
There's degrees to it, you know what I mean.
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>>63109
>>63116
Maybe "less restrictive" is more appropriate phrasing
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>>63111
Judo or Sambo if you don't want to waste your time. BJJ is good if you just like it, but if you wanna become a better fighter Judo and Sambo will build up your body while giving you good skills. Most Judo places will focus on Olympic rules but will still teach stuff outside that curriculum. Best bet is a Sambo place though as they will probably have wrestling and Judo classes anyways.
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>>63142
can you expand? Why bjj is only "good if you like it"? Why judo would be better than bjj even though it's mostly centered around olympic rules? I just hear very different opinions, some guys are trying to sell bjj as a cure all for mental problems, insecurity and lack of physical fitness and other shit on it. I have no real experience so I can't have a real opinion.
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>>63144
Not him but a martial art is ONLY good if you like. Theres no proficiency unless your training consistently and for a long time. Anyone whos worried about min-maxing effectiveness like a fucking rpg instead of just doing what you think is interesting is a retard.

You lile ground grappling? Do bjj. You like throws? Do judo. Simple as.
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>>63144
I say "only good if you like it" bc unless you're planning on doing comps or being a submission wiz then you don't really need BJJ to fill in the gaps in your fight game. All the technical stuff that happens in BJJ isn't always the most practical in a street or even an MMA fight. Judo, Wrestling, Sambo, etc. teaches you the "useful skills" you're looking for. Take them down and don't get taken down. Basic submissions and defense against them. As I said, unless you want to do grappling comps or be a submission artist you probably don't need to know how to do a gogoplata or a buggy choke; basic arm locks and chokes are all you really need.
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>>62783
Boxing is the best martial art actual self defense footage shows this to be the case. Mid tier armature boxers can beat the shit out of multiple people bjj black belts cannot and hardly anyone kicks in a streetfight for obvious reasons.
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>>63148
A lot more people are gonna be throwing leg kicks now since it's the meta in MMA. A jab cross leg kick is all you need in a street fight, maybe a body hook too.
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>>63149
Ya basic low kicks and kicks to the groin are worth learning, as is enough grappling to sprawl get up handle yourself if you have no other choice. But just basic boxing is pretty much the best place for anyone to start. Carrying a weapon too ofc.
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>>63125
yeah, thats more accurate
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>>63109
>>63125

The reason I bring it up is because because a mma sparring/competition format is actually a rather artificial setup.
I've seen some instructors for, for instance, bouncers and law enforcement where they do scenario sparring. Setting up a scenario that they are likely to run into in the course of their career and sparring with the kind of asymmetric motivations leading to a clash that are more likely in real life.
Thats what I'd call a realistic ruleset. But its certainly not a less restrictive one.
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>>63157
Yeah, I see what you mean.
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The fact that people rate Judo as lower than BBJ or regular Jiu Jitsu is proof of people's retardation when it comes to MA knowledge.

BJJ is literally just Judo. Everything in BJJ the Gracies took from Judo. 99% of morons you'll come across will think Judo is just throwing, when it's a complete grappling art and has everything else to it.
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>>63284
At this point BJJ is much bigger than the gracies. BJJ's training emphasis and the sophistication of its ground game, not to mention the ruleset, make it sufficiently different than Judo. Two people trained for the same amount of time in each will look very different, The BJJer won't know the same moves as the Judoka and vice versa. Saying Judo encompasses all of BJJ is being overly reductive and not practical.
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>>63090
Yeah but thats a very one dimensional strategy. Its like saying "TKD should be an A tier sport because if I just do a trillion headkicks and knock him out I win". Conceptually possible, but it doesnt offer you any flexibility and adaptability. The fact that ground and pound is a better strategy than TKD 10 trillion headkicks doesnt change the fact that wrestling by itself is too restrictive.

>>63086
This post is a whole lot of hot air. It is trivial that all martial arts impose there own restrictions, however some martial arts are less restrictive than others, and so perform better in a scenario with hypothetically no restrictions. In this case BJJ is basically wrestling but with submissions allowed, so it is much less restrictive and thus better.
>>
Jiu Jitsu should be divided between japanese Jiu Jitsu, oldschool Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, "sportive" Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Japanese on C tier, oldschool on A tier, sportive on B tier.
Judo should be B tier.
Karate should be divided between fullcontact and non full contact. Full contat in C and non fullcontact on D and some variations on E.
Kung Fu should be divided between fullcontact and non full contact. Sanda should be A tier. Shuai Jiao C tier. Generic fullcontact on C tier. The rest on E tier.
Kickboxing should be B tier.
Krav Maga should be divided into military and civilian. Military B tier (well, it does its job that well. Other training methods like "Marine Corps Martial Arts" are indeed C tier) and civilian in D tier (if the guy puts western Krav Maga and Judo in the same tier it shows he never trained both).
Capoeira should be divided between traditional and the dance class variation. Traditional D tier. The rest F tier.

>>62791
No way to put Boxing and Muay Thai both in A tier. Muay Thai consistently gives you a superior striking game and wins matches vs boxing under striking rules by leg kicks.
Wrestling cannot be in A tier because Sambo needed to be in A tier, and the difference between the stand up game is not so big compared to the way superior ground game Sambo offers.
>>
even capoeira is more valid in a real fight than fucking taekwondo
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>>63284
BJJ has consistently found success in MMA and mixed grappling competitions. Judo has been historically way more limited in terms of success in these same competitions.

Saying the JJ from BJJ means "Just Judo" and at the same time seeing the shitty submissions olympic, world class judokas get themselves into is a shown of ignorance.

>>63284
>99% of morons you'll come across will think Judo is just throwing
And traditionally BJJ was tested on street fights and BJJ fighters knew how to deal with strikers, close distance, clinch and takedown.
Can I argue that BJJ is the most complete martial art then? Now when nobody ever puts gloves on their students and tell them to punch each other while trying to get a takedown?

If a old moldy book about Judo shows how to defend yourself against a dog attack, it does not means it is a good martial art to learn how to fight a dog. You have to actually train it. Stop being a bullshidoist and base your opinions about real training actually being done.
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>>63471
Even Tae Kwon Do need two tiers. One for ITF (same as the non-fullcontact Karate options - D tier in my book) and WTF (olympic) in E tier.
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>Thoughts?
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>>63040
>Boxing and wrestling should not be in A tier simply because they dont use all of the parts of the body.
Not all parts of the body are made equal for combat.
>If that was the case then MMA would just be filled with boxers and wrestlers instead of people doing Muay Thai and kickboxing and BJJ.
MMA is unbalanced garbage and judging martial arts by how well they are incorporated into nigger sports like MMA is retarded. If you can't manipulate joints or strike at the back of the head/neck, then an opponent turning over 220 degrees to strike should be prohibited because you cannot fucking counter those attacks properly otherwise.
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>>63512
You can definitely manipulate joints lol you just can't strike the back of the head/neck because it's too easy to paralyze an athlete which would be a fucking waste
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>>63512
>Not all parts of the body are made equal for combat.
None of them are useless either, so a sport that incorporates more is in general going to be better.

>MMA is unbalanced garbage and judging martial arts by how well they are incorporated into nigger sports like MMA is retarded
MMA is basically just two dudes in a flat region of space with no weapons, where the only real rules are "dont do anything that will actually kill your opponent or rip bits of flesh off them".

>If you can't manipulate joints or strike at the back of the head/neck, then an opponent turning over 220 degrees to strike should be prohibited because you cannot fucking counter those attacks properly otherwise.
Nobody is really that fast at punching someone in the back of the head to counter a decent spinning kick. If you can punch them in the back of the head you can probably punch them in the side of the head. Also if you strike the back of the head you can literally kills someone of paralyse them, and no athlete is going to think a win is worth those risks, and the audience isnt going to want to watch a man have a seizure.
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I have never been in a fight in my life; what would be a good martial art to get started? I'm not really lacking in strenght as I've been working out for a few years.
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>>62783
Where would hapkido fit?
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>>63531
Boxing/kickboxing/muay thai/ + bjj/judo/wrestling/sambo


Im bringing it back. You all shouldve been repeating this to newfags ad nauseum already.
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>>63533
In the trash
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>>63535
Damn. I know nothing about it and just learnt there's a gym in my town, so I was curious.
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>>63040
>This meme that boxing and wrestling are somehow on par with things like Muay Thai has to end. If that was the case then MMA would just be filled with boxers and wrestlers instead of people doing Muay Thai and kickboxing and BJJ.
You have to go back through the history of mma to understand why it is the way it is now. Muay thai was not immediately useful for consistent wins as it lost in the early days to grappling. If did not have the grappling base to defend takedowns and keep the fight standing, you lost most of the time. Then came fighters who were decent at two things, like Chuck Liddell, who would use wrestling defensively. And later came people who were good at everything and exceptional at one or two on top of that. Good at any single discipline is not enough as your opponents will simply exploit whatever area you're weak.
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>>63536
Not your fault, the above is an old /asp/ answrr to "what should I train".

Pick a grappling style and a striking style from above and youll be well rounded
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>>63536
Whoops, nevermind thought you were replying to >>63534

No, hapkido belongs in the trash. Train a combat sport.
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>>63534
Leave it behind. It's boring AF.
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>>63560
>boring AF
Go back
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>>63558
Thanks for answering. I have never thrown a punch in my life, and as of right now I'm curious about the idea of fighting. I'm not sure I'd be able to get into two disciplines, since I still have college to work into my schedule.
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>>63568
Then do whatever youre more interested in, striking or grappling.

Your college probably has a judo and/or boxing club at the very least
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>>63569
I hadn't even considered that, but unfortunately it's a small college; no fighting clubs it seems. I've thought of boxing, but I'm kind of afraid of the long term effects of repeated blows to the head.
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>>63571
Dont spar hard and youll be fine. Otherwise do grappling.
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>>63533
>>63535
Robert Whittaker is a hapkido black belt. His explosive in and out style is evident of that.
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>>63533
It depends. Near me they have serious Hapkido places (serious as in sparring).

The striking part is a semi-contact thing, like olympic karate, but the ground part of the fight is full contact, closer to Judo. One of their students also trained BJJ with us and he wasn't a beginner to ground game but he wasn't a blue belt tier either.
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>>63581
Okay, and? Machida has a shotokan black belt that doesnt mean the vast majority of shotokan dojos are even remotely good.
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>>63586
>shotokan black belt
You meant, "Machida Karate" black belt. His family just gave a new name for what they train, just like every japanese martial art ever.
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>>62783
I don't agree with putting Judo so low. It's clearly superior to everything else on the C tier list. I would move Judo to B tier with Boxing and Wrestling.
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>>63578
Maybe I should do that. Thanks for putting up with me; I imagine my insistence and constant doubting might be getting old.
I think I'll start off with judo; it seems a little more approachable than BJJ for a total noob.
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>>62783
What does this list take into account? Just effectiveness alone in-combat, or other factors, such as applicability in a real fight, progressive deterioration of the body, etc?
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>>63598
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwEMYHIglbs&t
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>>63514
By manipulate joints I mean break/dislocate them with strikes.
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>>63472
fedor emelianenko and khabib were both dominant fighters in MMA who made extensive use of judo techniques

judo isn't used in MMA frequently for two reasons.
firstly, MMA is dominated by Americans and then Brazilians. Americans are far more likely to be trained in wrestling than anything else and both are BJJ heavy countries. Judo barely even has a presence in the US.
secondly, judo isn't immediately applicable in all regards to mma. it relies on the opponent being clothed for a lot of techniques. that doesn't make the art ineffective though, it just means it doesn't always work fighting someone only wearing lycra shorts.
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>>63591
I think he made that move in a later video and admitted he was wrong
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>>63787
What MMA rule forbids that?
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>>64012
I broadly agree, Judo has more limited success in MMA mostly due to economic and cultural reasons. None of the top dogs from France, Korea, or Japan have any incentive to step into MMA. If you're French it's illegal and ends your Judo career due to some dipshit regulation.

However, Fedor and Khabib aren't the best rebuttal because no one doubts the efficacy of combat sambo, which they both have extensive backgrounds in. What's questionable is an Olympic Judo background in MMA. Sambo has proved itself many times over.
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>>64037
Sambo is гoпник judo
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>>64038
Combat Sambo is a totally different beast. It's just barely not MMA.
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>>64039
sure, but the grappling techniques stem from judo and essentially are an application of judo in an MMA setting
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>>64012
The only grips that are specifically reliant on a jacket of some kind are front lapel and belt/lower back/georgian grips, everything else is just made slightly easier. Not wearing a jacket doesn't mean you're immune to the huge variety of hand, hip, and leg throws.
For gi chokes you can also just use leverage from their arms instead. https://youtu.be/TgwfUOWB7TQ?t=32
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>>62783
For streetfights/self defence boxing is vastly superior to everything besides a Gun™
Throwing kicks outside of a controlled environment is very dangerous, though you can get away with leg kicks. Obviously taking someone to the ground on the streets in insanely retarded.
>>63057
>t. Never fought
The better wrestler decides both the pace of the fight and where the fight takes place. Wrestlers can also just ground and pound. There's a reason that top tier wrestlers dominate every division they're in when BJJ guys haven't for like 10 years.
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>>63472
>And traditionally BJJ was tested on street fights
No it wasn't. Gracies were fucking notorious for ducking fights against people they couldn't absolutely stomp.
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>>64176
and would gang bash anyone that did beat them too

BJJ is 99% built on false marketing.
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>>64227
BJJ's marketing and mythology only got debunked because Brazil digitized almost all their newspapers and public records from the 20th century and a handful of martial arts researchers painstakingly combed everything related to BJJ. Given how recent the history is and how exagerrated it had already became, it makes me wonder how legit any of the martial arts founding stories are. If they're anything like the Gracie's then they're 90% full of shit, if not entirely made up. The more ancient the history the more likely it is to be myths and stories that have crystallized over time into "fact."

Not that it really matters. It's interesting from a historical perspective but the art as it exists today is what counts practically speaking. And BJJ is bretty gud, with a lot of really talented practicioners and coaches and a competitive circuit you can really cut your teeth in.
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>>64227
I wouldn't say 99% because it is a legit martial art even if there is a cult surrounding it. It's not as effective as they want you to think though, there's a reason BJJ guys haven't been on top in the UFC for years and it's not just because the Brazilians can't get away with PEDs anymore.
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>>64232
>BJJ's marketing and mythology only got debunked because Brazil digitized almost all their newspapers
BJJ was known to be full of shit for decades. The Brazilian martial arts scene only stopped saying the Gracies were scumbags when they meme'd the country into high status, brought in money and it started to be called BJJ rather than GJJ
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>>64233
yeah nah, I'm not denying it's efficacy. but it is literally just judo with a different set of rules
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>>64234
So yeah if you had known the Gracies and saw their shenanigans in Brazil then you knew the story was fishy. But even to this day people are pretty credulous about the mythology surrounding Helio and the supposed "real jujutsu" origins of BJJ. Only fairly recently, and only online, have I started to see the average practicioner realize that the myth is just that.
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>>64235
Which results in a drastically different competition scene and skillset of the average practicioner. Of course BJJ descended from Judo but at this point it is very distinct. Especially as the majority of Judo schools are going to be 100% dialed in on IJF rules and BJJ students tend to only learn rudimentary takedowns.
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>>64238
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, just saying that isn't how it is marketed
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>>64236
Fair enough that's true that most people who are finding out about it are doing so very recently. I found out in person when a guy at my gym told me about it because I said I wanted to try it out back around 2010. Didn't really buy it at first but after a year and a half of training BJJ I realised it was a fucking cult.

>>64235
As someone who did both at the same time, you're not wrong but the focus is on different areas and as a sport it's much different.
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>>64034
the game theory of the situation.
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>>64176
There were law projects in Brazil trying to literally register martial arts practitioners due to cases of street fighting becoming too common in the media. You know nothing about what you are talking about. BJJ got famous also due to street fighting.

>>64233
>there's a reason BJJ guys haven't been on top in the UFC for years and it's not just because the Brazilians can't get away with PEDs anymore
Once again, UFC is an event with a certain ruleset. Make is a single 15 minute round fight instead of 3x5min rounds and you suddenly will see that ground grappling becomes more relevant.
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>>64325
been drinking the Gracie cool aid there mate
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>>64325
>There were law projects in Brazil trying to literally register martial arts practitioners due to cases of street fighting becoming too common in the media. You know nothing about what you are talking about. BJJ got famous also due to street fighting.
Gracie cowards ran from rufino dos santel then ambushed him when he embarrassed the shit out of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCai00QBEl4
theres no doubt the gracies have done a lot for mma becoming a recognized sport, but the fact remains that theyre favela scum to the core
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>>64233
>there's a reason BJJ guys haven't been on top in the UFC for years

Charles Olivera is literally the World Champion. Aljo is a meme, but still the world champion. Brain Ortega is ranked #2 in his division. And Rose Namajunas is a world champion currently. All of who I've named are BJJ submission specialist. Dustin Poirier also introduced himself as a Jujitsu fighter.
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>>64359
Rose is a striker. Stop being dumb.
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>>62946
Judo Boxing and wrestling heem everything else.
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>>62913
sex
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I wish the Gracie nut-huggers and haters would actually meet in the same thread and flame each other. It's frustrating watching one side dominate the conversation in separate threads.
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>>64333
>The Gracies extensively argued about the use of certain capoeira techniques.
>This resulted in George Gracie winning by DQ.

LMFAO imagine having to rulesfag to defeat nigger dancing. BJJ is officially a meme.
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>>62783
>ITT: Judgmental fags that are NGMI no matter what they practice.
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>>64530
Bitch I do ITF Taekwondo. I would literally meme on your fatass.
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>>64326
You didn't lived the "pitboy" years in Brazil. Half of the people training BJJ did so to start fights with people in pubs. My mother literally didn't wanted to pay for my BJJ classes because she thought I was going to start confusion in school.

Also, as I said, ruleset allows advantages to strikers and wrestlers in modern MMA. The reason? The fighters get stood up again every 5 minutes. Make a 1x15 minutes round and 1x25 minutes round for championship fights and BJJ becomes way more interesting.

>>64333
And? The Gracies are a single family and Jiu Jitsu =/= Gracie.
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>>64538
Is it true that the BJJ street fight gangs were literally gay with each other?
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>>64540
I dunno. I got too late into it and grappling around in the streets weren't hip and cool anymore. I had no opportunity to touch nobody's dick and balls in the st33tz.
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>>64538
>jumping dudes you can't beat
>claim you are grappling God's
The Gracie's were lucky they were rich and politically connected.
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>>62783
>>62783
>>62783
Are BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai mixed together the best from what we've seen from UFC results?

I know joe rogan said karate kungfu and taekwondo are useless

Is the myth that capoeira has the most powerful kicks true?
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>>64549
Joe is a retard. He used to suck Benson Henderson's dick back when was champ and that dude's striking is pure Taekwondo.
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>>64546
The only reason they didn't try to gangrape Sakaruba was that PrideFC had Yakuza connections and they didn't want to pick a fight they'd get hit back harder on.
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>>64549
karate can be good but is rarely taught well. American and Dutch style kickboxing are basically karate styles separated from the Japanese cultural stuff.
tkd is the same but is so deep in mcdojo hell that it's hard to see it producing anyone worthwhile
judo is good, as shown by the eastern european guys
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>>62783
for what purpose?
mma:
a) bjj, mt
b) everything else
real actual life if you're a westerner:
a+) gun
a) boxing and greco roman
b) kudo, sanshou
c) everything else full contact
d) bjj, tk
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>>64611
Why the fuck would you pick Greco-Roman for real life.
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>>64612
Clinch control.
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>>62783
Judo should be higher, good to see Jiu Jitsu high as it should be. Not perfect for all situations but very effective for the situations you train for

Wrestling is a sport not a martial art

Capo is kind of a meme but I've also seen capo practitioners handle people IRL so I have to admit it can be an effective meme
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>>64612
The main reason to train grappling for real self defense is to avoid going to the ground. Having a strong sprawl with dirty boxing is a thousand times more practical and useful than submission grappling.
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Can you guys show up here to have this discussion? Thanks >>64651
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>>64671
How is wrestling not a martial art? Does a martial art having a sport behind it make it illegitimate? What does that make bjj and judo?
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>>64685
Given that you can't attack nor use the legs to attack in Greco, I would question its real life applicability. Greco is a great sport but it is definitely the most niche skillset of all the popular grappling styles. It's better than nothing, but if you're worried about da streetz I can't imagine why you wouldn't pick freestyle or judo instead.
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>>64549
the others have been addressed, but kung fu isn't inherently bad. wing chung and other stuff like that is bad, but sanda is very legit, basically being kickboxing with takedowns. ONE is full of Chinese fighters with sanda bases

As has been said earlier in the thread, the UFC is a product of where its fighters come from, the US and Brazil. In both countries, muay thai, boxing BJJ and wrestling are culturally dominant and karate and tae kwan do are watered down and barely useful. once you leave that bubble, wrestling will immediately disappear. that's not because wrestling is bad, but because only Americans actually train it. that then gets reflected in the amount of fighters you'll see relying on BJJ, judo, sambo and even the mongolian wrestling (can't remember that name) in place of wrestling. you'll find some fighters use karate too, since they come from a culture where karate is still tough and full contact. ONE is the easiest example of that, being where most Asian fighters end up.
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>>64732
I'm of the mind that things like Sanda and long pants kickboxing are legitimate heirs to karate and Kung fu respectively, but when people say Kung fu they don't mean Cung Le by default. Basically yeah Sanda may be good, but stuff like Huan gar, white crane, wing Chun, tail chi etc all still exist and are all still largely bad. So when someone says something like Kung fu or karate sucks you can't be like, but look at Sanda or kyokushin, because 1 that's not what they mean, because they would have specified that and 2 that's massively cherry picking. Seriously though, Sanda is not even a popular sport in China itself.
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>>62783
Utter bullshit. How about you do some research on what styles proved their worth in warfare? The list is short.
>S-tier: Japanese JiuJitsu/Early Judo/Kampfringen
Why? This is basically the same style, stand up grappling concentrating on joint breaking and vital point striking. Since the early 1900s, it has been introduced in ever close combat syllabus because it works and it is basically the only thing that works. Also, you cna train it via drilling, ie. don't need to kill yourself learning it. Used to great effect in medieval warfare, the Russo-Japanese war and WW1 and WW2.
>A-tier: Basic boxing
Explicitly not "Professional boxing", which is too artful and built on the premise you have to punch someone for over 30 minutes. This is the basic bread and butter amateur boxing without many of the modern "artful" points. Used since the early 1900s in every military close combat art. Not as useful as S-tier obviously - it's really difficult to 100% KO someone without a sucker punch - but useful to instill fighting spirit mainly.
>B-tier: Taekwondo, Tongbeiquan, Karate 101
Both only used in one war:TBQ in WW2, the only Chinese style that could match or even beat the Japanese styles. TKD in Vietnam, where the Koreans were much superior to the Americans and Vietnamese in cruelty and close combat ability. Karate 101 is what some Japs did in WW2, it's just a lunge punch (Oi Tsuki) and a kick to the balls (Kinteki Geri), exclusively drilled via live sparring at 100% power. The guys that made it through this were fucking retardedly dangerous, according to the reports.
>F-tier: Everything else
Your Style isn't in the above tiers? Then it doesn't work in a real fight without rules and against trained opponents. End of story.
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>>64742
retard lmao
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>>64742
Long way of saying "I'm a retarded weeb that's never been in a fight"
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>>64742
Reeks of Armchair Fighter.
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>>64772
>>64793
>>64842
Brainlet answers for brainlet posters, I guess, show record.
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>>64917
You're the weeb equivalent of a fat Krav Maga faggot in camo pants. Basing hand to hand combat on what works in war is retarded because the average person ISN'T IN A WAR ZONE. Even Russian military guys that learn sambo understand they're probably never going to need it due to the age old saying "you're never going to fight someone unarmed unless you lost your rifle, pistol, knife, & shovel then somehow meet another idiot that's done the same." Go out and actually train you fucking larper.
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>>64742
10 quid on this man being a fat cunt that doesn't even jog
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>>64717
When people learn wrestling the whole thing is learning to score points. Judo focuses on that these days but it's not everything you learn. Wrestling specifically avoids things and teaches techniques to work on the mat and is first and foremost focused there.
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>>62783
S stands for Sumo.
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>>62783
I'd move Taekwondo up to C tier or move the rest of C tier down to D tier and move kung fu E tier.

Karate and Taekwando are very variable. If they are taught very traditionally they are useless as a combat sport or self defense. If taught as a sport (ie olympic style) they are useless for combat or self defense.

My kids go to a TKD school, nothing like the crap I did as a kid. The strikes are all based on western boxing and not that punch from the waist crap, they do wrist locks and some other takedowns which are honestly shit compared to Judo or BJJ but not totally useless and the kicks they learn seem pretty good. They still do the gay patterns shit but seems to be only 1 week a month they spend time on that. The last week of the month they do a lot of sparring.

Most important difference I see between Muay Thai vs Karate or TKD is the sparring and learning to use the moves under pressure and fine tuning the moves so they work.

I think BJJ is way overrated by itself. 90% teach you to grapple in a gi starting on the ground and all based on winning competition with strict rule.

I mean its a shitload of fun, but as a self defense you need to learn how to manage without a gi, and how to handle and opponent who will be trying to fucking smash you.

I'd say look at a place that has some solid foundations in a striking and grappling art that focuses on getting you to spar and you will probably be ok.
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>>63476
Same even with BJJ. Learning to roll around on a mat with a gi is not going to help you against a boxer if he gets some punches in before you give him a hug.

And I think BJJ is great, but in isolation and not sparring against people who are striking its only going to help you so much.

Muay Thai is considered such a high tier martial arts because its a full on combat sport where they are training themselves to the bone, conditioning themselves to the bone and then beating the pulp out of eachother. Pretty quick way to learn, and I guess if you don't learn you probably stop doing it, so I guess crap Muay Thai fighters don't exist much (least not in Thailand).

I did TKD as a kid and it was all patterns and forms and kicking shields and pads. My kids go to a TKD place, the strikes are way more western boxing style, they do wrist locks, some take downs and of course a shit load of kicking, and plenty of sparring. They have no problem mixing up bits and pieces from muay thai, bjj or whatever else is fashionable in a cage. If you strictly stick to some tradition or to the rules of a very restrictive sport (i.e. olympic style shit) what your learning is either obsolete or soon will be.
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>>62889
Based
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>>64720
Leg grabs achieve nothing in a street fite because PvE vs PvP difference, you're very unlikely to street fite and even less likely to fite someone with appreciable skills. Goal is to always be on offense and avoid being tied up. Punch a dude a bunch of times throw move on asap going for legs increases your odds of being slowed down and while I love judo it's trained too passively compared to wrestling.
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>>65162
I disagree, but you'd have to move confidently and fast so realistically there are probably higher % things you could focus on if your focus is winning a street fight.
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>>62783
I like (and practice) king fu and there is nothing you could do about it.
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>>65162
Yeah pretty much is stay on the outside for the most part if possible. It's just bum-rushing people with straight punches will end 99% of street fights favorably if you know how to box. If there is more than one assailent then you circle out and use footwork if you are in an open space and direct them into a chokepoint if it is closed quarters. The grappling will be most useful for clinch work and like I said before sprawl and brawl dirty boxing etc. I think of submission heavy grappling training like I think of most kicking techniques. In a 1v1 against someone else who knows how to fight in a controlled environment of course you need to know how to do that stuff. But it can't be your priority training for self defense, because you are making yourself too vulnerable by taking some guy down or trying to kick him in the head etc.
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depends on your purpose

in MMA and fighting against a trained opponent you want wrestling/bjj and muay thai or kickboxing (not saying others aren't effective, just that these will cover all the bases you need)
in a self defence situation, boxing and judo are arguably more effective than the others
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Krav Maga and every other meme military martial art shouldn’t be that high.

If you have ANY knowledge of any actual martial art you can fuck these guys up. Used to get drunk and roll around with Marines when I was in C-school and my three months of BJJ I hadn’t done in a year was infinitely better than their weird hybrid shit
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>>65519
Yeah I've got no idea why this guy rates it so highly. He even kept it in C in his revised version. Tried watching the first video and his explanations seemed pretty weak.
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>>62913
Lol I always ask this too.
>epic street fight fantasy takes place
>wrestler takes dude down
>they’re both scrambling because uh… yeah….

Great martial art especially to watch but I mean all you’re really gonna do is take control of the other guy and gaysex dom him on the floor until he gets bored and you win cause no one was interested anymore
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>>65532
>>62913
Have you faggots even watched a street fight? A wrestler slams the other guy on the concrete and if they aren't out they get their face smashed in. There's so many examples of this. Football player Spencer Jones and his buddy were just caught on tape of them getting ragdolled and battered.
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>>65524
Bevause he's a normal fag retard with lukewarm nonsense takes on everything he talks about
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>>62783
No
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>>62783
Pure onions list.
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>>65532
Wrestlers can just get a cheeky double leg like it's nothing. When they are on top of you what are you gonna do. Nothing unless you know some gay BJJ sweep. You will either hug them and hope someone breaks it up or they will smash you with fists and elbows.
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I'm tempted to join a karate dojo just because it's near my home and not very expensive. Is karate worth the effort, or should I look somewhere else?
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>>66150
If they spar and don't waste your time with kata then it's worth
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>>66154
>kata
I'm not familiar with that. What does it involve and why is it a waste of time?
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>>66156
Kata is the dance routine a lot of McDojos waste your time with. It's an old tradition that's a lot like shadowboxing that's devolved into choreography. It's a waste of time because it doesn't actually help you in any facet of fighting. Sparring, drills, padwork, strength & conditioning are what you need to become a better fighter.
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>>66237
There are no karate styles that don't do kata.
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>>66154
kata is fine, it just shouldn't be the focus
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>>66237
Kata teaches you to move properly and drills sequences into you. Same shit as practicing "jab punch jab hook" against air in boxing.
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>>65533
>Football player Spencer Jones and his buddy were just caught on tape of them getting ragdolled and battered.
it was a shitty stalemate, if these guys were strikers instead it would end in a flash
Wrestling is a MEME
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>>66375
>it was a shitty stalemate,
Nigger what? Jones got beaten so badly he nearly lost an eye and tried suing the mma dudes for kicking him and his friends ass too hard.
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>>62783
>check list for what I train as an amateur
>A tier
As a fighting expert, I can say this list is accurate
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>>66375
>stalemate
>was beaten so badly they underwent surgery
Ah yes denial, first stage of the cope soon after will come the seething
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>>62783
Krav Maga is unironically S tier but it’s boring af
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>>66258
it's not the same and you know it
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>>66442
imagine actually believing this
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S Tier: Buying a gun
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>>62915
>Never heard of Lethwei
Basically bare-knuckle Muay Thai with headbutts allowed.
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>>64555
>interacting with niggers at all, ever
ngmi
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My opinion on the matter:
S: a combination of A tier martial arts
A: Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, Boxing
B: Sambo, Jujitsu, Wrestling
C: Kyokushin Karate
D: Shotokan Karate, TKD
E: JKD, Wing Chun, Krav Maga
F: Tai Chi, Aikido, Capoeira, Kung Fu
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>>67432
>A good tier list for once
What the fuck?
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>>67577
Most people make them as bait, the above anon is doing it wrong
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what about savate
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>>67813
Seems cool but too niche. Same problem as Sanda. If you have the opportunity and the interest you should train it. But the overwhelming majority of posters will not have the opportunity.
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>>62783
Change A and B
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>>62794
>Capoeira is infinitely more usable than being taught by a sweaty guy in camo pants.
lol American spotted.

>>62913
Nothing. Takedown on concrete -> fight is over.

>>63040
>If that was the case then MMA would just be filled with boxers and wrestlers instead of people doing Muay Thai and kickboxing and BJJ.
Anon...
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>>63547
Muay Thai started to get big with Bas Rutten - who did karate, ironically.
There were strikers eating grapplers for breakfast from the beginning, eg. Igor Vovchanchyn. If anything, MMA showed that specialists rule and jacks of all trades get raped. The only early successful allrounder who could "grapple the striker and strike the grappler" was Marco Ruas.
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>>63787
It's legal but since everyone trains MT and BJJ, it's not trained so it doesn't come out usually. Sometimes it happens though.
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>>64040
Actually most of the grappling comes from european wrestling styles. There are several techniques that I haven't seen in Asian arts, only in Sambo and in historical wrestling manuals.
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>>64612
Clinching happens a lot on the street. Freestyle is not useable because a penetration step on concrete will break your knee - old wrestlers even got knee problem from penetration steps on mats.
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>>65519
Marine system is shit since they stopped using LINE, they are now importing German combatives instructors for better training.
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>>62783
Whoever made this list hasn’t seen proper capoeira in use
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>>67925
lol capoeira is such a meme. Do you Americans like it because it's African? It's pretty useless in a real fight, silat-tier.
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>>62913
Hammerfist, who needs technique against a defenseless opponent?
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>>67931
Headbutts and knees to the head unironically. This isn't pussy ass UFC if you get someone in a vulnerable position you have multiple options to stomp someone out. Ain't no grounded opponent rule in street fighting.
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>>67930
It's legit enough that the Gracies wouldn't agree to fight capoeria-users without a comprehensive banlist on their techniques.
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>>67944
The Gracies rulefagged everyone one because they were scared of being exposed. Those who didn't agree to their bitch tactics would get jumped by Helio and Carlos and their crew with weapons.
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>>67944
That was back in the Carlos days which were a real wild west of Gracie fuckery. They were essentially no better than the strip mall karate hardasses of America. A brazilian judo variation on an old formula. It has nothing to do with capoeira not being shit for fighting. It has exactly one good trick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjtK43u7HHU

But you don't need to train capoeira to learn that. Dedicating any time to it, if you're trying to learn to fight, is a huge waste of time. If you want a fun and kind of weird way to stay in shape then maybe it isn't.
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>>67962
>It has nothing to do with capoeira not being shit for fighting
Yeah it does.
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>>68061
Gracies are monkeys. Capoeira still sucks dick. If they were actually scary they'd go make money prize fighting.
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>>67432
Maybe move TKD up to C tier? A skilled fighter with a good background in TKD can be quite skilled
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>>67432
Sambo is basically pre-2010 judo with leglocks and no chokes.
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What would happen if Tai Chi users stormed a Capoeira gym?
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>>68132
Wtf tkd can probably be higher than shotokan because at least they are actual athletes unlike the wkf lol. But its not really equivalent to kyokushin.
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Can you turn arts like Tai Chi, Akido, and Wing Chun into real martials or are they doomed only to be arts?
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>>68149
ITF Taekwondo shits on all that gay shit. Based Juche shitting on all the fighlets.
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>>62783
The one thing we can all agree about is that Aikido is garbage.
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>>68205
It looks great in movies though. It's more of a dance than anything else
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>>68205
No we don't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqHsZWUN1u8
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>>65533
he got sucker punched you idiot
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>>62913
Arm bars, wrist locks, choke them out, smash them...just because you may not learn striking to be a wrestler doesn't mean once you use your wrestling in a street fight you can't belt the shit out of the other guys once you use your grappling to pin him down.
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>>62916
holy shit this man is a fucking animal
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>>68281
Yeah and? What are you even trying to imply lol he punched him then wrestlefucked him
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>>68262
Stfu queer
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>>68262
hahahaha
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>>68262
>6 minutes of nothing of substance
>AIKIDO GOOD!!!!
im sorry to hear about your brain damage
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>>68300
>>68376
>>68380
Cope.
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>>68431
Steven Seagal got a hold of a computer again
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>>68431
MMA demands you fight abother man in ewual terms to prove your skill. D9es aikido do that.
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What this guy said>>67849
but also
>submission-hold
>choke-hold to force the yield
>joint-locks
It's the same if you asked "after punching or kicking the guy, what next?". There is nothing next, the fight is over. Walk away or do whatever you want
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>>68132
it's such a rare thing though, even in ITF





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