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File: longsword.jpg (83 KB, 848x1200)
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power of god and anime edition pt 2

>What is HEMA?
HEMA stands for Historical European Martial Arts, sometimes also called Historical Fencing.
It's reconstructing how to fight with swords, daggers, polearms and other weapons based on old European fighting treatises

>What does it look like?
Inside the World of Longsword Fighting - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zueF4Mu2uM [Embed]
Back to the source - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DBmNVHTmNs [Embed]
Martin Fabian Sparring - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8QlbKfX84k [Embed]

>Where can I find these treatises?
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Main_Page
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Weapons

>Where can I find HEMA clubs near me?
https://www.hemaalliance.com/club-finders
https://hroarr.com/train/clubs-gear/club-finder/
https://ifhema.com/ifhema-members/

last thread: >>48072
>>
First for fatties making excuses.
>>
First for HEMA is both a martial art and a sport
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>>53575
First for being that guy who says historical recreation is impossible and hema is about winning tournamemts
>>
First for banning all Americans, women, and trannies, from HEMA forever.
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>>53579
First for HEMA is primarily about interpreting and understanding sources in order to recreate coherent systems of fencing with clear tactical and technical frameworks, but attempting retarded marching attacks and flunges in sparring is also fun
>>
>>53580
Based
>>
>>53580
I'd vote for you as HEMA president!
>>
Do you think that a visual representation for what is written in the books would be useful?
Just videos showing what the books describe, without commentary or annoying like share updoot type of deal.
>>
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>>53561
Anons, I sure hope you cuddled your bros today!
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>>53623
yes.
>>
>TFW watching anthropology nerds trying to use historically accurate tactics in sparring get crushed like cans by people just imitating Dark Souls weapon animations.
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>>53630
Video or it didnt happen
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>>53630
I wanna see a video of that too!
Wouldn't surprise me tbqh, if you haven't trained the historical techniques regularly for months and years, every noob can kick your ass (especially with a bit of luck)
>>
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Which one has the "best" dagger system?
One of the Liechtenauer fucks?
Meyer?
Fiore?
Marozzo?
Anyone else?
>>
>>53648
I don't think it matters much, there's plenty of overlap.
Meyer's is derived from Marozzo's which may be influenced by Fiore's.
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>>53626
>Komm in meine Hut rein, Bruder!
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>>53648
Lignitzer
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>>52248
>>52249
Knights by Minoru Murao
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>>53561
Stop being spastic and learn real fencing
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>>53699
I and many others did sport fencing for a good long time BEFORE we started HEMA
>>
I have a question for the hostorians in this thread, I know the medieval manuals especially have a focus on wrestling, however once the duel was more established from the 17th century onwards as a means for settling a matter of honor, were there common rules forbidding strikes and grappling or was the idea of a "gentlemanly" swordfight more of a modern invention?
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>>53699
but I want to learn how to murder people with screwdrivers!
or fighting with real swords
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>>53699
What do you consider to be "real fencing"?

>>53651
Agree, that's a good start
>>
>>53626
wow that german bro just pulled a contemporary bjj half guard on his renaissance enemy!
>>
>>53580
I vote that we make this the legal first reply.
>>
>>53702
Most duels in the rapier period were illegal and fought in secret due to judicial duels being made more difficult to obtain, Louis XIII's famous edicts etc, so there were no rules as such. Dishonorable conduct doesn't seem to have included grappling, it's just that rapiers really aren't conducive to getting into grappling range (even worse if you also both have daggers), so the treatises don't discuss it.
>>
>>53580
fpbp
>>
>>53580
Why ban them? Just kill them when they show up at your club. That's what we do when trannies and faggots show up here in Russia. You're making the world a better place, and saved Hema at the same time.
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>>53864
>Implying HEMAutists can kill anything except cheeseburgers and pirogis.
>>
>>53858
Newfag
>>
>>53867
Im polish-american what the hell else am I supposed to eat?
>>
>>53868
?
>>
>>53868
>area retard accidentally outs himself as both dense and humorless
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>>53561
Why do standart longsword hold is dominant hand at the hilt and non dominant at the pomel? If you do reverse, dominant hand at the pomel it's much better for one hand long range cuts and thrusts you would be doing them with dominant hand.
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>>53919
Because gayszlen and telescopic thrusts are a committed action that typically only work a handful of times against people who aren't aware that you're likely to do them.
Once your opponent becomes wise to them it becomes harder to pull them off consistently and you're better off fencing with higher percentage actions that you can perform better with your dominant hand leading.
It's the same thing as asking "Why don't messer fencers use their weapon in two hands more often? The grip is long enough." You shorten your reach dramatically which is a much bigger loss compared to the small "benefit" of being able to fence with a dinky longsword.
>>
>>53919
Most of the time you hold a two handed sword with -guess what- two hands. And dominant hand at the hilt feels just much more natural than the other one. Would you trade the precision and control of most of your fencing just to barely improve a trick or two?
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>>53924
>Because gayszlen and telescopic thrusts are a committed action that typically only work a handful of times against people who aren't aware that you're likely to do them.
It is still another tool in the box, and having more lines of attack is stronger than having less. And switching stance makes these attacks much stronger.

>you're better off fencing with higher percentage actions that you can perform better with your dominant hand leading
Here is my doubt that switching hand changes anything for two handed moves. point: polearrms, even short and heavily cut orientated are used with no dominant hand lead. Non one says that Is somehow wrong. I think dominant hand forward is artifact of one hand sword application. Sword is used with dominant at the hilt, sometimes non dominant hand grips at the pommel too and this transforms into double handed grip.

P.S. ofc for someone who trained all times with leading hand forward, switching relearning would be extremely difficult.
>>
>>54004
>Polearms
Are much easier to change grips with because you have so much more space to do so, compared to longswords which have much shorter grips
When you thrust with a spear with your left hand in front, your right hand is still providing most of the power while your left is mostly responsible for guiding your point.
I believe di grassi says something about one handed thrusts being the optimal way to use greatswords, but otherwise your dominant hand should still be the forward hand in LS. If you do any grappling actions, use a companion weapon, or fence from horseback where you have to hold the reins with the off hand, you're technically fencing with a one handed weapon.
>>
>>53699
Fencing is to sword fighting what TKD is to a real fist fight
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>>53699
>real fencing
which is?
>>
My club has gone woke, and it makes no sense because we're not in the anglosphere. What the fuck?

Where do I go now ? This is like a cancer, where the FUCK do I go now?
>>
>>54209
Just grow up and get over it. The real world isn't what /pol/ tells you.
>>
>>54209
Kill everyone who tries to wokeify your club. They deserve it. It's your club, not theirs. They deserve death for their sins.
>>
>>53561
how common is for girls to beat guys at HEMA?
>>
>>54306
Girls beating men? Practically never.

Girls beating (((men)))? Totally possible. Happens all the time.

Any man who gets beaten by a woman in a fight isn't a real man in the first place, so the concept of a woman beating a man is really a tautology.
>>
>>54209
>>54306
Why is every hema thread exactly the same?
>>
>>54336
Every hema thread is just the same 3 dudes posting.
>>
>>54306
happens, especially advanced female studends against male beginners.
when they're both advanced and at a comparable level then the guy typically wins 95% of the time.

melee weapons are some kind of equalizer but only by a small margin if both are around the same level
>>
I'm new and I need some advice.
In the last few unofficial tournaments I went to I kept getting hit in the hands.
Most of the time those hits where doubles with me getting the first hit, I tried to target mainly the head and as I was doing the strike the opponents abandoned their defense to get the hand hit.
I've heard that it's a common "Problem" in the tournament scene but people can do whatever they want and it's not for me to care about them.
As foolish as this may sound, I want to overcome these tactics while maintaining "historical accuracy", i.e. avoiding targeting the hands and avoid doing thrusts, I also think that fights are far more interesting with less of these two things in general.
So what what would I have to do to overcome these opponents, do I just have to get better in general or is there a specific thing that I need to learn for these tactics?
>>
While I'm here I may as well ask about two more things.
1. What is your lesson plan like?
What kind of things do you go over and how much of them do you do?
In our club it can be summed up like this, Cuts, Meyer square, plays, sparring.
There is an occasional skill that is studied in between either of the above mention things but it's mainly just an explanation by the instructor and not enough repetition to really remember or make use of it.

2. When you are doing drills or exercises (not sparring) with a partner, do you prioritize form or are there times when you work on speed as well, keep in mind this is without any protective gear.
What I experience in my club is that certain people like to speed up and I feel that if I don't parry they will have no control and hit me, on the other hand doing things under pressure is neccessary to improve but I don't know if it's this kind of pressure that I need.
Then similar thing happens when we do more endurance focused things, we'll start at a fast but manageable pace however as they become more exhausted their form breaks down but their speed remains the same, so for example instead of doing a diagonal cut it will start to look more like a vertical one.
These people are adults and do have an age advantage over me but is it really up to me to spoon feed them basic practice etiquette?
Or should I just get to their level?
It just seems reckless to me when we are not even professionals that practice daily or get paid for doing this.
>>
P.S.
This isn't really important but I remembered another type of behavior that people above generally have in relation to minimal gear sparring.
If you where to light spar in only mask and gloves against them, they would intentionally use speed to score a hit versus just focusing on their own technique if that makes sense.
Or they would try to use the time that you gave them after a parry to do something that would potentially get them injured in a full speed and intent match.
Is it wrong for me to view this behavior negatively in a class environment and if I'm right about that should it be attempted to educate these people or should they be simply avoided?
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>>54355
>"historical accuracy"
>avoiding targeting the hands and avoid doing thrusts
Meyer DOES thrust, it just comes later in Dussack and Rappier.
Also targeting the hand is THE BEST WAY to fight in earnest
As Manciolino says:
>The wounding of the hand, not of the enemy, is registered in the account of blows in play. Because the hand is the chief in exposing itself, thus in combat for earnest it is the most singular wound, because that member of the enemy must be offended which offends more than others, and this is the hand.

I'll continue...
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>>54355
>I tried to target mainly the head and as I was doing the strike the opponents abandoned their defense to get the hand hit.
You can do literally NOTHING against that, as much as it sucks.
In a "real" fight, people will (in 90% of cases) instinctively try to prevent harm coming their way and parry instead of doubling.
With safety gear you will fight in a bullshit way since you're not afraid of the "sharp" blade anymore, so doubling happens even more than in "real" fights.

The only way to prevent this behavior is either a "Vor" rule, whoever attacks first gets the point in a double.
Or a "higher value" rule where the head gives e.g. 3 points and the hand 1 (which doesn't help necessarily since it can and eventually will turn into brainless head-bashing)

>So what what would I have to do to overcome these opponents
Better rules or start hand-sniping without getting sniped yourself
>>
>>54367
>Meyer DOES thrust, it just comes later in Dussack and Rappier.
Meyer as far as im aware said something along the lines of "you can put the edge to your countryman but save the thrust for the foreigner." As I understand it in the part of germany he lived in it was not AS illegal to get into a sword fight and cut someone as it was to thrust someone. He didnt thrust in longsword not because it wasnt valid but because during the time period and area longsword was being practiced more for sporting purposes than dueling or combat, as opposed to his rappier stuff which was THE weapon of the time. Not disagreeing with you just wanted to add some context.
>>
>>54355
>In the last few unofficial tournaments I went to I kept getting hit in the hands.
The fact that your making these observations means your already going in the right direction. Keep a training and tournament notebook.
>Most of the time those hits where doubles with me getting the first hit, I tried to target mainly the head and as I was doing the strike the opponents abandoned their defense to get the hand hit.
A lot of beginners tend to fight "suicidally" and even some more advanced fighters may try to double intentionally under some corcumstances to avoid losing a point. In anycase if youve noticed the person youre fighting is attacking into the attack then the thing to do is to draw them out first. Feints are friends, then be prepared to counterattack. To quote lichtenhauer
>A wise man fears the one forced to defend
>I want to overcome these tactics while maintaining "historical accuracy", i.e. avoiding targeting the hands and avoid doing thrusts,
You think thrusts are historically inaccurate? Ever heard of zornort? Meyer didnt focus on thrusts because of his specific location and time period but that doesnt mean he didnt thrust or that prwvious masters didnt. And hell, krumphau specifically is meant to be targeted at the hands and risks. If you can take someones fingers off their days as a swordsman are done and you should do it.
>>
>>54314

There's a female kid in my club and I'm afraid to break her skull, so I play it defensively and just try to parry everything and apply the techniques I learn in class.
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>>53818
Holy shit you're retarded, that's a full guard. Krauts can't grapple in contemporary days
>>
>>54209
Club is lost
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>>53561
I’ve been thinking about starting hema but I don’t have any nearby schools (Brazilian big city but not big enough for that), so for now I just practice martial arts,lifting and archery, is there any way I could start training hema on my own or would that lead to developing bad habits and form?
>>
>>54209
The right answer was >>54261, but you pussied out and didn't do it in time, anon. That sort of response is why we don't have problems with woman and trannies here in Poland. They don't try to infest our clubs more than once.
>>
>>54448
You could do modern olympic fencing as a base and then start reading theanuals to make your own interpretation. Youtube has a lot of video respurces to see people doing proper technique too.
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>>54394
I don't think of thrusts as historically inaccurate, I just want to avoid them as often as I can as to not fall into a habit of doing the same thing.
As >>54393 said, thrusting with the long sword did exist, in fact Meyer even teaches to fake a thrust with the longsword in some part of his book.
I guess I just need better footwork, coordination and speed to pull of the other techniques, haven't got a clue on how to practice them thought.
>>
>>54535
>I don't think of thrusts as historically inaccurate, I just want to avoid them as often as I can as to not fall into a habit of doing the same thing.
You need to get to a point where you can react with an appropriate technique without thinking or planing on it first. That very well may be a thrust in many cases.
>I guess I just need better footwork, coordination and speed to pull of the other techniques, haven't got a clue on how to practice them thought.
Drill. Drill. Drill.

Btw I wrote both the posts you cited lmao
>>
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Any manuals written by people with a documented dueling record? I don't trust anyone whose only credentials are just some diploma at a medieval mcdojo.
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>>54560
so what about instructors whithout a dueling record? Not tournament, but actual duels with sharp swords and everything
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>>54560
Fiore wrote about some of his duels. The manuals for the most part are exactly that though, manuals. Theyre not biographies of the people who wrote them.
>>
>>53580
>Americans
Pls no. I'm not a fantasytard I promise
>>
>>53648
>dagger
Literally just git gud at grapples or knock your opponent on his ass and straddle him
How often are you gonna be 1v1 with daggers only on a battlefield?
>>
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>>53652
>parrying an axe with the flat of your blade
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>>53919
>two_dickheads_fighting.png
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>>54560
Fiore not only never lost a duel, he never suffered an injury
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>>54529
I already have experience with Olympic fencing and I’m very good at it fren, but I suppose you’re right, thanks
>>
>>54560
The ones I'm aware about are Fiore and Talhoffer, they killed other people in duel. Marozzo is said to have never been defeated, but without checking I don't know if it is about firendly duels or deadly duels. About other masters, I don't know or don't remember,
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Any UK/EU based HEMAutists coming to fight camp this year?
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>>54582
>How often are you gonna be 1v1 with daggers only on a battlefield?
Don't care, just want to have fun with daggers
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>>54633
>just want to have fun
Well your wrong for wanting that. If you just want fun then get out of hema.
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>>54633
>just want to have fun
Fuck you.
>>
>>54560
>>54577
>>54585
>>54597
The biggest issue about this topic is that most of the time, the manual is pretty much the only source about said author, so when Fiore tells you he won duels in his own book promoting his fencing instructions well... it's really up to you to believe it.
Now the people who actually followed the guy are generally and indication of the status of the author, which is probably a better way to consider the worth of people like Fiore, Fabris, Cavalcabo, etc.

Besides, just because you're a good duellist doesn't mean at all you're a good teacher or that you can put together a good manual. Being a teacher from whom people travel entire countries to get instructions from is a better indication that the guy was worth his salt, like Tappa or Patinostrato, who are attested in several various sources, both local and foreign like Brantôme or Montaigne.
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>>54653

Not only that but they had patrons that payed good shekels for the manuals and the instruction, so of course they're gonna be selling themselves as elite fighters.
>>
>>54653
Plenty of nobles paid beaucoup bucks to get lessons from Fiore to prepare for duels and they got their money's worth.
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>>54674
>Beaucoup bucks
a black man? In my hema?
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>>54675
>>
>>54654
This too, though some manuals were pretty much "self-published" in the intent of actually getting a patron like Lovino with Henri III.
HEMA manuals though should be approached like any historical sources, you should ask yourself the basic question, who wrote it, for whom, why, how did he found the money, link to the corpus. Many people just take books at face value and don't even consider that HEMA manuals aren't a unified sort of text with a single intent, there's multiple sort of books (full text vs mostly images for a start, contrast Talhoffer with 3227a, with Fiore), with multiple sorts of intent. Daniel Jaquet's article about the book typology is pretty valuable in that regard and the logical conclusion is that trying to learn from pictorial books that weren't made for instructions, like many of Talhoffer's and Kal's, is kinda pointless.

>>54674
Yes in the case of Fiore, there's many reasons to believe that he was the real deal, this and the fact that we have multiple manuscripts from him which is something quite important before the printing press.
>>
>>54634
>>54639
based, fuck fun and enjoying things!
people should suffer through hema
>>
>>54745

What's the point if you're not in for suffering? Where's the improvement? Fucking lardass mongrels and cattle that are there just to waste their time and mine.
>>
>>54825
Suffering and pain is only useful for improvement after a certain level of experience, HEMA doesn't have people at that level yet.
For example, let's say you are a begginer in a completely different martial art, you injure yourself early on and miss a whole bunch of training, the guy next to you kept himself safe and is now far ahead of you both physically and mentally.
>>
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>>54745
>fuck fun and enjoying things
You should git gud out of passion and interest, but if you just want to dick around with swords, stay away from my club and go cut water bottles with a katana in your back yard instead, fatty.
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>>53561
I took one Historical Fencing class in college and it fucked me up forever. Why can't I like distance running or powerlifting.
>>
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>>54745
>>
>>54846
What happened?
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>>54599
No but I’ve been 3 times and to me its the best HEMA event by far. By virtue of being outside and easy 24hr access to showers and amenities.

Other than the classes. It can be somewhat unwelcoming for a solo traveller since it is mostly dismissive Londoners or ancient cliques from the turn of the century but if you’re persistent its great fun.
>>
>>54906

Can you fugg brit hags there
>>
>>54997
Only the one I brought with me but others experience may vary.
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>>54997
Why would you want that???
>>
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kneel before the greatest of weapons you dirty kniggas
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>>54560
McBane is the treatise writer whose fighting record is best attested by sources outside his own claims.
>>
>>54674
Fiore's duels were supposedly also fought as a judicial champion -- some noble hired him to fight a judicial duel in his place.
>>
>>54905
He liked it, and now he's stuck dealing with all these obese, awkward nerds for the rest of his life.
>>
>>55227
>obese, awkward nerds
Gods I'm glad I'm not American
>>
>>55217
Woah, he bungas skulls in AND he harvests my crops?
I kneel.
>>
I want to buy a feder
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>>55251
>Gods
Pagan larper fag detected
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>>55292
Go on, my friend, buy one
>>
>>55292
Why? Feder fencing is sportshit. All real hema must be done only with sharps, so that you actually get accurate feedback in the blade and so that you properly respect the weapon, and so that it's more understandable when you ""accidentally"" kill your clubs local tranny.
>>
Will my jacket fuck up if I wash it every month?
>>
>>55427
It weakens the velcro on mine, but that's mostly because Black Armoury use shit velcro
otherwise, it's fine, just make sure you wash it as recommended
>>
>>55378
seethe harder sportsfag
>>
>>55453
>Complaining about "sportsfags" on a sports board
Just stick to doing kenjutsu kata since you don't care about becoming a better fencer, at least then you'll get decent instruction
>>
>>55378

Real sword fights happened with federschwerts you stupid mongrel.
>>
>>55479
>imblying board names/topics mean dick anymore.
It's also technically an "extreme" sports board but in practice it's /asp/2.0 unless marbles recently became high stakes.
>>
>>55487
If you remember /asp/ then you'll remember Boxing/MT + BJJ/Judo/Wrestling, all martial arts that actually pressure test and are worth training are also sports.
Do you really want to be in the same boat as the systema LARPers and aikidofags that also insist they're "a real martial art and not a sport"?
>>
I taught some of Manciolino's Partisan and Rotella today to a bunch of longsworders, they enjoyed it and felt it was very refreshing
Some of them ended up vigorously throwing padded Jogo do Pau staves at each other, great fun
Teaching weird shit once in a while is highly recommended
>>
>>55514
>spear and shield is weird shit
Rare shit, but weird? In the context of salle fencing which is what Marozzo probably is mostly yeah sure, that's peculiar.
>>
>>55480
Federschwerts are literally practice swords what yhe hell are you talking about. Thats lile saying real sword fights happened with foils.
>>
>>55518
It's weird shit in the context of HEMA since there are few and short sections on it in treatises. In the context of *history* spear and shield was extremely common obviously, but with nearly no documentation, in HEMA it's a sideshow.
>>
>>55489
I remember the people who harped that like Gospel were faggots, so apparently so are you.
>>
>>55518
It's weird shit for most people, many don't try much different stuff
>>
How do I learn to break a fall, going to start learning ringen and what to allow me and my partner to learn without pussying out on the throws too much.
>>
>>55586
Do Judo for a few weeks/months
>>
>>55586
Practice your breakfalls dumbass.
>>
>>55594
Nah, that's too long.
Is there like a YouTube video that can make me a master in under like 5 minutes?
>>
>>55614
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GngJ2XUJjw4
didn't even watch it but it's <5 mins and you probably learn how to fall
>>
>>55614
No actual joke, this is LITERALLY what my club said when the instructors wanted to take a break from swordplay and teach falls and rolls. "How does this help me win tournaments? It doesn't? Well we don't want to take time out of sword work for this. We'll just tell people to watch YT videos on it."

>Difficulty: Brighton & Hove, UK. Not a burger.
>>
>>55651
>Brighton & Hove
So you're in the homo capital of Ingerlund, and your clubmates are acting gay? What a shock.
>>
>>55651
What a bunch of dumb fucks. Do you know how many times I have to instruct newbies on how to breakfall before they stop hurting themselves in judo? Spoiler alert, its a lot.
>>
>>55676
Still supposed the be smarter than burgers, though.
>>
Oi, any of you homos still in chink flu lockdown?
How much have your sword larping skills suffered from it?
>>
>>55708
Not in an actual lockdown, but my club didn't even try to do somethign when allowed to. They believe it's pointless if you can't do a full proper yearly course, so they prefer to do nothing
>>
>>55712
that sucks, but I guess my club also wouldn't have started if it wasn't for me organizing outdoor training (I'm not even an instructor or anything, just thirsting for getting back into HEMA)
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>>55489
This a false comparison with the difference being that your drawing comparisons with martial arts that are all selling themselves as applicable modern-day knowledge that will serve students in da streetz. HEMA is just the occidental equivalent to doing koryu swordsmanship; it's imperative to preserve the tradition as a form of cultural heritage because the pragmatic function it served was a product of time and place.
I mean, maybe you crosspost on /pol/ and fantasize about the day where you'll put on full Crusader gear and run towelheads through with your long sword, but that doesn't change why most people are (or should) be practicing the art. If you want to learn to fight with weapons 4 4 reelz, then you should be exploring different options.
>>
>>55731
>HEMA is just the occidental equivalent to doing koryu swordsmanship; it's imperative to preserve the tradition as a form of cultural heritage because the pragmatic function it served was a product of time and place.
This is an interesting line of thinking, but somewhat faulty, in that koryu are living traditions, were as HEMA is reconstructed, and the main force driving the reconstruction is the desire to use the techniques in tournaments and sparring.
>>
Are the exile's interpretations good?
>>
>>55732
>the main force driving the reconstruction is the desire to use the techniques in tournaments and sparring
sparring maybe, but before 2010 nearly no one cared about tournaments.
reconstruction was driven by the desire to reconstruct old fencing, not using those techniques in tournaments
>>
>>55738
This, plus tournament fags are cancer also.
>>
How do I start a HEMA group?
>>
>>55731
>4 reelz
>da streetz
Please stop this LARPing, I don't care about getting involved in real fights or pretending to be a knight or whatever.
HEMA is historical fencing, and fencing is a combat sport. Combat sports can be both martial arts as well as games that are played for points (in HEMA's case) or KO/submission (in the case of striking sports, submission grappling, or MMA).
Acknowledging that what you do is also a sport doesn't make it less historical or martial at all, especially when you consider that fechtschule fencing like Meyer's tradition of KdF is a very clear example of a form of sport fencing practiced historically, where the aim was not necessarily to kill your opponent on a battlefield or in some imagined self defence context.
HEMA is not an equivalent to koryu since we have no living tradition to preserve and we're instead trying to reconstruct a martial art; of course people are going to want to encourage and emphasise sparring because they want to see if their interpretations and what they've trained actually holds up against a resisting opponent who also wants to "win" in a sparring match or a tournament. This doesn't mean that people will have tournament tunnel vision and only want to do what's "optimal" to game the ruleset, because tournaments are just another training tool to validate what you're doing, just like sources are.
>Historical European
Read and interpret sources to understand a system of fencing
>Martial arts
Do lots of fencing with this system in mind
>>
>>55758
>Please stop this LARPing
>In a textual medium
Also taking HEMA as seriously or with the same regard as MMA is nothing short of a LARP.
>>
>>55768
This, only self important retards consider HEMA any better than organized LARP
>>
>>55758
>because tournaments are just another training tool to validate what you're doing
They used to be. Now the tails wags the dog. People don't want to see if their interpretation is valid or can stand up to a resisting opponent. They just want to win tournaments because winning is winning, and because all of the other sports require you to start training when you're 3 AND to have won a genetic lottery in order to even get a chance to compete at a high level.
>>
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Tell us, /HEMA/ what's your gear?

>SPES AP light jacket
>knock off padded pants
>SPES elbow prots
>SPES mask overlay
>Sparring Gloves mittens long cuffs
>generic motocross leg prots
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>>55783
>Supfen 800N colonel jacket w elbows (pic related)
>Supfen 350N pants
>Broken Anvil heavy gloves and forearms (local brand)
>baseball catcher leg guards
>chinese 1600N fencing mask
>Supfen mask overlay
>>
>>55771
It's organized larp if you let it be that way.
I'm happy to discover from these threads that there are people with a humble mindset towards hema, I'm sure that they will go far towards the goal of not only recreating historical combat but also in ways of teaching it.
Here is the point that I'm trying to make, it is always easier to stand around and talk then it is to try to discover new ways of learning or understanding the skills through potentially embarrassing actions.
Another point and a reason why i mentioned humbleness above is, whenever you try to learn or understand something, it takes a great amount of self doubt and questioning to truly master it.
Most of us don't have that, most of us are just doing that to enflate our ego or to make up for a lack of personality.
>>
>>55783
Gajardoni mask
AP Light
SG Hourglass Mitten
Old Neyman pants
RD Elbows
Rey Shinguards
>>
>>55768
MMA is utterly unimportant in the great realm of things and is mostly a cash machine trying to rip boxing money.
>>
>>55811
Whatever you need to cope.
>>
>>55822
Cope really has become a shorter way of writing "i h a v e n o a r g u m e n t".
If it was anything else from the beginning.
>>
>>55825
Your schizo shit deserves nothing more.
>>
>>55829
cope
>>
>>55829
>schizo
More m e m e words,
still no a r g u m e n t s.
>>
>>55829
lmao
>>
So we elitists now
>>
>>55882
Always have been.
>>
>>55882
Always have been.
>>
>>55882
Always have been.
>>
>>55882
Always have been.
>>
>>55882
Always have been.
>>
>>55223
mcbane's also mostly smallsword and pretty hard to follow unless you already have a strong basis in 18th and 19th c. smallsword and sabre.
>>
>>54906
There's 10 of us coming from my club so it should be a laugh
>>
>>55996
So? That's not the question that was asked. Anon didn't say anything about ease of use.
>>
>>56007
What blub?
>>
>>56010
I'd rather not say on 4chan...
>>
How do I know if the HEMA place I'm going to is a mcdojo or not
>>
>>54653
>The biggest issue about this topic is that most of the time, the manual is pretty much the only source about said author, so when Fiore tells you he won duels in his own book promoting his fencing instructions well... it's really up to you to believe it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7DBmNVHTmNs
>00:31:52 Chapter 4: The Validity of HEMA (11 mins 4 secs)

This should be in the OP
>>
>>56043
Is it American?

Then it is.
>>
>>56043
Mcdojos are usually unclear or vague on what sources they're studying, and are not too happy if students starts working directly with treatises on their own, yet they claim the fencing to be true and right. Mcdojos often don't won't to interact with other clubs and advice agaist attenting worshops from instructors of other clubs, causal sparring meeting between different clubs and sometimes tournaments too.
>>
>>56061
Now I'm curious. Our salle very strongly discourages all those things for new students, but once you've completed their introductory course (a generalized intro to HEMA and sparring safety) and one other advanced course (usually a 16 or 24 week class in German or Italian longsword, or messer, or saber), they encourage you strongly to do most of those things. Students who have done those things take trips to other schools to spar, and are encouraged to look through sources to find things they like. They do discourage us from entering competitive tournies until you have a year or so of experience and sparring in a specific weapon under your belt, unless the tournament in question is explicitly a newbie tournament. "Don't rush into sparring and competition" is one of their favored phrases.

Mcdojo, or not?
>>
>>56067
Legit to me. Complete newbies must be tutored a bit before they can walk on their own legs. Mcdojos will never allow you to do that, instead
>>
>>56067
Nothing that discourages sparring from the start can be good.
>>
>>56067
This is obviously a wholly different scenario from what Anon was describing, you're just talking about training wheels, not ARMA/B&I obfuscation. Anon's point doesn't apply at all. That said my personal values align with >>56071's, people should fight as soon as they can do it safely.
>>
>>56071
Because handing someone a synthetic and having them flail around after a 30 minute lesson is peak HEMA? Come off it. Looks to me like they're saying that you should actually have some building blocks of knowledge before you start free sparring. That's what should be happening in any reputable group.

It's the tards that think that you should be free sparring on your first day that are fucking cancer. You don't teach anything that way, the students don't learn anything, and all you're doing is creating a good chance of injuring your new students. Frankly, you shouldn't be allowed to free spar at all until you've had all least 100 hours of actual, legitimate, training. I don't care if it's not "fun", it's shit teaching practices to have students sparring before they know what they should be sparring with.
>>
>>56077
>actually fighting doesn't teach you how to fight
Retard.
>>
>>56078
All that free sparring too early does is get people to flail around like retards with swords. Nothing is wrong with guided sparring in the context of a lesson to teach a technique against a resisting opponent. But handing newbs swords and saying "go at it" before they've learned anything about tempo or guards or anything else is fucking idiotic. You don't hand a first day violin student a Bach symphony and say "get out there and sight read it". You teach them the basic skills first.

But no. I'm sure fighting is TOTALLY different, because it makes you feel like more of a badass to spank someone (inevitably with the flat of the blade since you haven't learned about edge alignment) with a sword like object on day 1.
>>
>>56080
>All that free sparring too early does is get people to flail around like retards with swords.
Factually incorrect.
>>
>>56081
Wrong. And nothing you can say or do is going to convince me that you're correct, because I've *watched* first day idiots flail around like retards when handed swords with no instruction. The only major injury our club has ever had was one of those retards getting a broken finger because the other retard was swinging for the fences.

Additionally, please die of cancer, soonest. You're everything that's wrong with trying to create responsible HEMA instruction.
>>
>>56082
>I totally saw it bro, trust me
Okay retard.
>>
>>56083
Post club location.

His experience lines up with mine, and I'll bet you're just a larper.
>>
>>56084
Very subtle samefagging, retard. I bet you'll post a totally legit screenshot next.
>>
>>56085
Post club location.
>>
>>56086
Post evidence that early sparring is detrimental.
>>
>>56087
Post club location.
>>
>>56088
>no evidence
As expected of a naive mcdojo cocksucker.
>>
>>56087
What evidence would you accept? This is an image and discussion forum. No WebM inside the size limit can prove anything, and document can be faked, and any account can be dismissed as made up. So what would you accept as valid if it disproves your opinion?
>>
>>56090
>So what would you accept as valid if it disproves your opinion?
Literally nothing. But go ahead and post evidence anyway.
>>
>>56077
>What are sparring games and technical drills
HEMA is nothing but shit teaching practices, by the way. I've done BJJ, some MOF, and now Jukendo and I was free sparring from the very first session in each of them. I'm pretty sure they've all produced far better martial artists and fencers than your average KdF club that probably doesn't know the difference between RDL and Meyer.
>>
>>56093
If your Judo teacher had you sparring before teaching you how to fall, you're in a shit school, mate. That's about the worst example you could have possibly picked. Kodokan is very specific that learning to take falls comes before randori, every time.

Also, anon didn't say that they were opposed to all sparring for noobs. Just no holds barred free-sparring.
>>>56080
>Nothing is wrong with guided sparring in the context of a lesson to teach a technique against a resisting opponent.
Ie, literally advocating for sparring games and technical drills.
>>
>>56077
>Because handing someone a synthetic and having them flail around after a 30 minute lesson is peak HEMA?
>>56082
>I've *watched* first day idiots flail around like retards when handed swords with no instruction.
Where are the goalposts? What is your argument here?
>>
>>56099
Follow the thread, genius. There was a anon up thread who mentioned that his group didn't allow free sparring until students had completed a sparring safety class and had completed at least one class section to teach them the basics of what to do while they were sparring.

Some people thought that was a terrible idea. Some people thought it was okay. Everyone is sharing personal anecdotes and mistaking them for data.
>>
>>56097
>BJJ
>Kodokan Judo
I've also dabbled in Judo but you can't even fucking read you cunt
Did one of your fat neckbeard newbie clubmates give you CTE with synthetic and now you're vehemently opposed to free sparring?
If your club manages to communicate that the meaning of "free sparring" means no holds barred beating the shit out of each other with no regard for safety then I'm afraid you're the one who's in a shit school.
>>
I don't see what the big argument here is.

It doesn't matter whether you should do free sparring sooner or later. If you aren't doing all of your sparring with sharps and no protective gear, then you aren't really being true to the art of the sword. If you aren't using sharps at all times, you're just LARPing.
>>
>>56103
This. Sparring is for pussies. I pay my dues so that every club meeting is a fight for my life.
>>
>>56103
>It doesn't matter whether you should do free sparring sooner or later. If you aren't doing all of your sparring with sharps and no protective gear, then you aren't really being true to the art of the sword. If you aren't using sharps at all times, you're just LARPing.
This, Viggiani had the Conte fence him day 1 with sharps, so doing likewise is totally historical and true to the source.
>>
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I can't believe this legitimately a debate in HEMA, or at least in this thread. There are two major types of McDojos: Ones that never spar and ones that immediately throw novices into free sparring so sensei and his buttbuddies can crush cans for fun.
>>
>>56101
>vehemently opposed to free sparring?
Not him, but theres nothing wrong with teaching begginers the basics and most importantly control before having them free fence. I had to complete a begginers course when I did sport fencing before sparring, same with hema. I had to wait about a month before doing linited sparring with a far more experienced student in kickboxing and as someone mentioned above I was taught to fall befofe everything else in judo. I have no idea whats up your ass about the totally reasonable assumption that free fencing isnt productive and often dangerous for a complete begginer to engage in. This isnt saying "fighting bad" its just daying to teach students the fucking basics first.
>>
>>56116
The intensity of sparring is exactly what you as the instructor communicate it to be. You can teach people basic techniques and tactical framework and tell them that sparring is the time for you to apply what you've just learned under pressure, or you can be a literal retard with zero nuance and simply say "here's some masks and boffers go bonkers haha".

I have not once implied that newbies should start the first minute of their first two hour class in free sparring. However, once basic techniques have been conveyed it's useful to give newbies a chance to apply what they've learned under pressure. Pressure testing is why sparring exists.
>>
>>56115
One obnoxious retard on 4chan does not mean its a debate in hema. Ive never heard of a club that does what hes suggesting.
>>
>>56118
>I have not once implied that newbies should start the first minute of their first two hour class in free sparring.
Thats literally been your entire argument that whole time. The fact that someone said his club requires a begginers class before sparring is what got your panties in a knot. Now you want to pretend you were in agreement the whole time. Lmfao what the fuck am I reading???
>>
>>56123
I took issue with the retard saying that not only under no circumstances should newbies be allowed to spar in their first class, but that
>>56077
>Frankly, you shouldn't be allowed to free spar at all until you've had all least 100 hours of actual, legitimate, training.
Imagine if you told a boxing or fencing coach that people should only be allowed to engage in sparring bouts after they've clocked at least 100 hours in technical drills and padwork. You'd be rightfully laughed for being a stupid cunt.
May I ask, how much of your martial arts background (assuming that it exists) is in non-sparring chinkshit TMAs that claim effectiveness in spite of zero actual pressure testing? Can you post a picture of your Ueshiba shrine and your dildo that's been personally signed by Mikhail Ryabko?
>>
>>56124
>May I ask, how much of your martial arts background (assuming that it exists) is in non-sparring chinkshit TMAs that claim effectiveness in spite of zero actual pressure testing?
Zero unless you count the karate classes i took when i was 10. I skimmed past the 100 hours nonsense. I stand corrected, youre both faggots.
>>
>>56125
So you're just another unathletic retard who's bumbling around with zero frame of reference for how a martial art/combat sport should be trained
Why do people like you plague HEMA? I just want to interpret books and hit people with swords and sticks without LARPniggers like you shitting everywhere with their preconceived notions of what REEL SORD FIGHTUNG should be like based on playing dark souls or watching game of thrones
>>
>>56126
>ask if I only train mcdojo shit
>I dont
>"ah HA! That must mean you dont train anything."
Lmao
>>
>>56043
if they care about gender politics more than fencing, it is a mcdojo
>>
>>56043
If they don't do hema exactly as how to think hema should be interpreted and taught, then they're a mcdojo and you should quit them immediately.
>>
Reading what you guys write makes HEMA sound pretty try-hard and devoid of fun.
Y'all just bad fencers with longer weapons?
>>
>>56226
You’ll find short fencers wherever you go, you just need to learn to tolerate them or leave. Sword fighting seems to attract manlets.
>>
>>56226
Please entertain us with new, fresh bait. Not this old stuff.
>>
>>56245
So you really are just try-hards? Why not do real fencing instead?

>>56230
What?
>>
>>56251
>Why not do real fencing
Half the people I know in this game, including myself and my coach, already did aport fencing. We switched to hema because its more fun. People on 4chan =/= people in real life. I myself enjoy a more combative form of swordfighting which makes me right at home in longsword.
>>
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>>53652
>>52248
Is there a HEMA manga not doomed to obscurity and death?
>>
>>54906
Bunch of bullshit. It's only unwelcoming if you're an autistic neckbeard with no social skills.
>>
>>56321
Probably not. Kendo is the most popular martial art in Japan by far and there are only like three notable manga series themed around it.
>>
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Maybe it's going to be a weird question but... Can anyone explain to me the appeal of Silver for a non-anglo?
For what I see, well first for a source that is supposed to have clear definitions and applications of fencing, there sure seems to be an awful lot of people fighting over the world and the internet over what stuff like "true times", not really dissimilar to any of the KdF or Fiore's debates really.

For what I see, Silver was quite an oddball, I imagine this is some sort of appeal, but he wasn't recognized by an institution like the Masters of Defense, I've not seen any other secondary sources talking about him or his writings. So basically he was a guy with a strong opinion on fencing, who was litterate, yet what do we know that could tell us he isn't another Burton? Just because it's different doesn't mean it's valuable as a fencing theory (as a history subject that's another thing), we have fencing manuals from a dentist which is pretty interesting... but not necessarily for its practical contents.

I've been back to the Winslow vs Wagner matter, found one of his long texts but pretty much every argument is pretty much solvable by, like... do Marozzo / Bolognese or Fabris / Cavalcabo, all people who had extensive, documented and long lasted influence on at least regional fencing (italian, german and french).

So what exactly is the appeal of Silver, bar "oldest somehow comprenhensible native english-speaking source"?
>>
>>56410
>Can anyone explain to me the appeal of Silver for a non-anglo?
There isn't, if you're not an anglo you're wasting your time with Silver.
Tbqh if you're an anglo you're wasting your time.
>>
>>56455
Angelos shouldn't be doing Hema anyway. Hema is about EUROPEAN martial arts and Angelos attempting to participate in our heritage is unacceptable cultural appropriation, since they aren't actually Europeans.
>>
>>56458
>americans banned from doing hema
>anglos banmed from doing hema now too
At this rate no one will be allowed to do hema
>>
>>56458
Anglos are allowed to do later stuff e.g. saber if you ask me.
>>
>>56459
Good. HEMA is dead anyway.
>>
>>56470
Not dead yet but dying, probably only a few years left
>>
>>56470
>>56473
Patently false. It’s bigger now in the US than ever
>>
>>56482
>It's big in the US
That's what dead would mean.
>>
>>56485
God I hate euros
>>
>>56482
Going mainstream is exactly what will kill it.
I guess HEMA will split in a few years anyway into HEMA sport fencing (bad MOF) and historical fencing (LARP that takes itself too serious)
>>
Thoughts on Dane Axe?
>>
>>56499
Overpowered in Song of Swords.
>>
>>56502
Same
>>
>>56487
So why are you here learning our martial arts then? Shouldn't you read Rada or Patton?
>>
>>56506
They’re mine because I’m actually white.
>>
>>56507
>thinking inheriting a culture has anything to do with the color of the skin
This is actually a cultural practice, but it's no surprise you think that just being "white" has some inherent value or anything.
>>
>>56507
>American
>white
Of course you are, Pablo Jamal Rosenberg-Cheng
>>
>>56521
Why thank you, Emil Schneider-Ahmed
>>
>>56510
Its a dead cultural practice being revived by modern people. Race is pretty much a pointless consideration compared to competence.
>>
>>56556
Good goy
>>
>>56602
>trains KdF
>>
Me and my buddy want to try out some spear techniques on each other. How do we do this without killing ourselves?
>>
>>56668
I did some study and relaxed sparring with the rubber spearheads from purpleheart, some time ago
>>
"Me and my buddy want to try out some spear techniques on each other. How do we do this without killing ourselves?"

High-tech spears with two-foot-long foam tips and sensors that can distinguish a successful stab from a hit or touch.
>>
>>56668
Regenyei is working on sparring spear heads
>>
>>56668
>Padded rubber/leather tips
>Use control and keep the intensity fairly low
>Don't thrust to the head if you're worried about concussions/waffles/caved in masks
>Consider a plastron if you feel like some thrusts to the body are too hard
>>
Anyone have good sources for learning how to train/fight like a Roman recruit?
>>
>>57357
no, but I guess it could be fun
although it's probably more of a group drill thing than individual training
>>
>>57363
>>57363
It’s like military drills you’d receive in basic training, very straightforward and meant for familiarizing recruits with tactics and equipment
>>
>>57357
"Epitoma rei militaris" by Vegetius, I guess
>>
>>53561
>Want to get back into fencing
>Local clubs are "sister schools" run by the same three guys, one "master" and his two former students who now have their own club
>They insist on new members buying club uniforms, signing some sort of contract and buying training weapons through the clubs

Is this normal and I'm overreacting because it sounds like a pain in the ass. I just want to fence but I don't know how to do that without joining a club
>>
>>57452
Ive never heard of a club do anything like that. The uniform thing is culty alone but fuck contracts especially
>>
>>57453
God damn it. Any suggestions?
>>
>>57457
go to a different club
do zoom classes if there aren't any non-crony clubs nearby
>>
>>57469
Zoom classes?
>>
>>57471
Remote online training, such as classes done using Zoom.

I don't know how common it is, but I know there are some accomplished fencers like Arto Fama teaching online.
>>
>>57480
That might be an idea. I was hoping to spar but beggars can't be choosers. Where would I go about finding a zoom class?
>>
>>57490
Go browsing hema pages on normie book, people often post open and closed online events
>>
>>57452
>They insist on new members buying club uniforms
If it is a club t shirt you have to wear at events, it's normal, but if it is something more you have to wear at every training, it's suspicious
>signing some sort of contract
Very suspicious. Do you know more about it?
>buying training weapons through the clubs
Maybe they have some kind of deal with a maker or reseller, so they get club discounts or something. Also, newbies usually need advices on what to buy, but it doesn't sound good if they don't let even experienced members buy what they want
>>
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I need to vent a bit.
We all know that HEMA attracts nerds. This is generally fine; it's a great way for the unfit to finally get moving, a very powerful tool for self-improvement.
However, it's become clear to me that not all nerds are created equal.

The "good" nerds are those who get invested in things, who are passionate. When one of these guys gets into HEMA, it can totally transform them from a skinny dweeb to somebody who's decently athletic, as well as great assets in terms of shit like research and improving the training's structure. Also, in my experience these guys don't tend to become the greatest fencers in terms of raw effectiveness, but very fun and stylish ones.
Then there's the other type of nerd, who is really just a shallow consumer type. I've got a few in my club, and one of them is the absolutely most horrific example of one.
He's fat. He can't move right. He's been around for a fair while now and has hasn't really improved.
I've tried to teach him, but you just can't fucking do it. The guy can't grasp basic footwork or form, he can't even stand right. I tried giving him simple body awareness exercises that you can randomly do during the day. These would pay massive dividends, but he unapologetically said he just doesn't do them, in fact he does nothing, he doesn't even engage in the training properly. He just consumes, and HEMA is but another product to him, one he's willing to spend all sorts of money on without working to actually improve himself.

Worst of all, we finally reintroduced grappling, and THE GUY STINKS LIKE A SMASH PLAYER. Body odour, bad breath, you name it. He's repulsive in every way.
And no, sparring against him (or more accurately, smacking him around) isn't fun. It's barely distinguishable from hitting a heavy bag, except that the heavy bag puts up more of a fight. Even worse, his low-energy nature is somehow contagious, and after a while you just feel empty, sad, and like you just wasted precious sparring time.
>>
>>57587

Oh yeah, HEMA seems to attract turbo consoomer "onions nerds". Some somehow stick around long enough to git gud but others just kinda turn up and never really improve. Its really just people that shouldve been in LARP or SCA.

Like its a hard thing to explain, but its something that irks me because its fucked up some of the local competitive scenes here. To the extent that overprotection and not training grappling or even proper fighting has caused a lot of wussy fighters. My fencing was fucked until i changed clubs to a different one that didnt associate with that "circle". A lot the "top people" in my city are just pseudo-intellectuals who like the appearance of studying history and HEMA but dont want to put in the effort to get good at it or properly learn it.

Shit is fucked, and its something i want to try and fix eventually when i get good at HEMA.
>>
>>57452
Yeah this is deep faggotry. Start your own club to compete with these assholes even if you have to bumblefuck through all the drills in total ignorance for years before you get the hang of things.
>>
>>57578
>If it is a club t shirt you have to wear at events, it's normal
This is absolutely not normal where I am. Most clubs have shirts and patches and shit but wearing or buying them is voluntary. Who the fuck requires you to wear club livery anywhere at any time?
>>
>>57587
Look, I'm gonna level with you: you just have to kick that guy out.

No, I know, it's not fun, he technically hasn't doen anything wrong, etc., etc., but you have to realize that guys like him pollute the club. They push away other, better students, it's not just some no-loss proposition keeping him around. You have to suggest gently or flat out inform him that he's not a good fit for the atmosphere and ethos of this club and if he refuses to learn to fence he cannot be permitted to occupy a training space (or however you want to phrase it).
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>>57618
>My fencing was fucked until i changed clubs to a different one that didnt associate with that "circle"
I had this problem in rapier. I didn't improve for years because I was just fighting shitters, and I could knock them up and down the hall without even trying so I had tons of bad movement, bad tempi, bad habits of every kind that I just didn't resolve because not only did I not need to, I couldn't really identify what they were due to nobody ever taking advantage of them.
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>>57725
>events
>anywhere at any time
Pick one.
I mean, my club asks us to wear the club shirt at promotional events and at workshops and that's all. Not a big deal, at least in my opinion. Also they give us the shirt for free, but I guess not every club does that.
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>>57787
NAYRT but yes anon, events are in fact a place at a time and as such are included in anywhere at any time

Did you think anon meant "everywhere at all times?"
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>>57618
I've come to the conclusion that in order to do most of the sources justice, it takes a not insignificant amount of base skill and fitness. If you lack that, most shit won't work and/or you'll have wonky interps. /his/ needs /fit/, which is something that quite a lot of people don't want to admit.

>>57726
Sadly I'm in no position to do that. I can only try to avoid him as best I can.
However, the good news is that our club is restructuring and we'll be introducing advanced trainings that we will heavily gatekeep. The problem is that this can only really be done with longswords as it's the only weapon with enough practitioners to let us do that, and the fat consoomer consooms almost every weapon.
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>>57793
>Sadly I'm in no position to do that. I can only try to avoid him as best I can.
Hard times, friend. I misread "my club" and figured that it was literally your club that you were running.

You can still mention it to the instructors, though. Don't sperg out about it, just go "I feel like Anon is dragging this club down by refusing to learn, plus he reeks like a tannery, can't you do something about this? Consider this an official complaint" or whatever.
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>>57793
>/his/ needs /fit/, which is something that quite a lot of people don't want to admit.

Oh yeah definitely, this has been a big discussion in a lot of HEMA circles because a few of the top fencers keep their body fit and focus on a lot on athleticism. HEMA needs ATHLETES not overweight people who think they can win just by studying the sources good enough.

Then again, people are too scared HEMA will fall into the trap of MOF, so i guess thats a valid thing.
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>>57587
>>57618
Getting upset about pathetic nerds being in HEMA kind of reminds me about Sci-Fi nerds on 4chan being genuinely mad that liberals and libertarians are in their hobby, as if the dorks aren't the natural client for this shit and betas affecting alpha mindset aren't a perpetual minority.
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>>57947
>Sci-Fi nerds on 4chan being genuinely mad that liberals and libertarians are in their hobby,
Not into sci-fi, how does being a liberal disqualify you feom the interest in those peoples minds? Im genuinely confused.
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>>57955
I can only summarize it as a crossing of denial and solipsism or "wanting to believe." The kind of thing where you deeply hate most of the people in a hobby or scene so you try to retcon it in your mind so that your sensibilities are the norm somehow.
I mean that I've read stuff by /pol/-tier ethano-nats and race-realists complaining about Disney's Jews subverting and stealing Star Wars from them even though George Lucas is a lifelong liberal Democrat who patterned the Emperor off Nixon and The Empire on what he thought America would be like by the end of the 1990s. On the other side, I've read a lot of insanely convoluted coping from leftists who don't want to believe that the neofolk or martial industrial music scenes are naturally appealing to right-wing attitudes because they want to enjoy something cool without admitting there are wrongthinkers in their space.

Scoffing at reject fa/tg/uys being your HEMA club or weebs showing up to kendo practice is rather similar. It's like going to a jazz concert and being annoyed that you have to be around middle-aged niggers.
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>>57966
Original ranter here
As I said originally, I have nothing against nerds or fa/tg/uys per se. As I define them, they're generally people who have the ability to go down rabbit holes and pursue goals, and so them getting into HEMA is generally great both for them and their clubs.
The shitter I'm so fed up with is a physically revolting, lazy and unfriendly figure. I don't think it's fair to even call him a nerd. Yes, he seems superficially to have interests that would class him as such, but shouldn't a nerd be more than someone who just shallowly consumes shit?
There's nobody else like him in my club, so to say that guys like that are part and parcel of HEMA is just wrong. He's not the middle-aged black guy at the jazz concert, he's more like the obnoxious nouveau riche Chinese woman taking selfies with the flash on at a jazz concert.
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How did you feel when Shad said it's more historical to make stuff up instead of studying the treatises?
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>>57978
I had no clue since I'm not watching that fat retarded furry shitter.
It's not that wrong I guess though
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>>57978
He’s more honest about the larping element of HEMA
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>>57998
You asked this on /k/ didn't you
Height isn't a factor in this at all
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>>57978
>>57978
Shad is a butterball and I dont care what fat people think about athletics.
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>>57947
>>57966

I mean those "liberals" have an insanely long track record of ruining hobbies theyve forced themselves in. for e.g D&D is a fucking shitshow atm, MTG is barely kept alive, and warhammer 40k is in a weird fucking state.

Overall shit take, no one is saying neckbeards turning up to training is bad, but its turning up and not trying to at least get better is the problem. Its like if some guy turned up to a chest club and sat on his phone the entire time and didnt even bother to learn basic rules.

>>57971

Yeah, like i consider myself quite unfit (really just shit cardio), but even i put in the effort to keep myself somewhat fit enough to do HEMA to an acceptable degree.
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>>57978

I cant wait for him to get absolutely humiliated again. Even his own fanbase is starting to despise him, he doesnt even participate in his own discord anymore and even people there lowkey mock him.
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I’m starting Italian rapier on Monday. Any pointers?
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>>58230
>Any pointers?
ur sword lol
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>>58240
huhuhuh
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>>58230
Be ready to squat a lot
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>>55783
>OOOOIIIIIIIIIIII
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>>57978
Shadman is as qualified to judge the historical value of something as its martial value. Meaning not at all. I'd watch him for comedic value if he didn't have the rarefied gall to "correct" people who actually train or have historical credentials with his hobbyist aspierations.
>>58219
Your interpretation is shit. You're talking about outsiders forcing themselves in and displacing the original crowd; I'm referencing minority elements of the crowd not understanding that it's not weird for the people they hate to be there.

But I agree with >>57971, and he's not even discussing a nerd so much as a guy who's passenger in his own life and got a fa/tg/guy exterior as a byproduct of that.
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>>56499
Good axe for it's time.
However it's totally outclassed by the later bardiche.
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>>58596
Axe with more of a poke option
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>>57978
My honest opinion on Shadergarten: I genuinely don't understand why anybody cares about the shit he says. Since when do fat, ignorant sperglords get any respect? How does him recording video of himself saying stupid shit make it any less irrelevant?

I don't just mean you guys either, I mean I don't understand why guys like Matt Easton bother recording responses to him, or even acknowledging his existence at all.
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>>58596
Where can I buy that?
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>>58684
It's just youtubers drama, you get views by participating in the drama, regardless of how seriously you approach the thing and it's still a good thing.
This and you're trying to reach secondaries. Most of shad's viewers are most likely (please) people who have never done HEMA or any sort of proper fencing and thus can't recognize the difference between an actual fencer and someone who think about it, "heh, everyone can have an opinion and if you have the good arguments and objectivity". Problem is that the viewers don't know what's an objective opinion because they don't practice, but they want the opinion they like to be objective and valid, thus shad need to be.
It's just youtube secondary circlejerk, it has pretty much no bearing on HEMA, but if you want to attract people, which is what Easton is doing via YT (this and publicizing himself and his club), youtube is still a place to be so...

Nobody who actually bothers doing HEMA in a club is more qualified than shad. For starters, this guy studied european castles while staying in Australia and that's his best subject...
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>>58684
>Since when do fat, ignorant sperglords get any respect?
Since at least 2007.
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>>58765
Your stolen image presents a very compelling argument.
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A few days ago, this post >>56499
Yesterday, scholagladiatoria video on daneaxe

Coincidences? I think not
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>>59092
Hey easton, you ever worry about when the british government is going to decide swords in the home is wholesale illegal regardless of antique status? Do you think youll need a collectors loiscense?
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>>54209
I searched my local club and saw that they use "inclusive writing" on their website so I chose to rather learn without them
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I really like military saber bros
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>>54209
>>59173
Learn as much from them as you can and then fuck off and start your own, better club
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>>59241
it's ok to be gay
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>>59371
No it isn’t you homo.
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Any advice for someone starting a sword and buckler club from scratch?
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>>59386
don't do I.33
if you have to, do proper sparring!
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>>59402
So just bolognese (Manciolino and Marozzo)? I don’t have fencing experience personally so I want to make sure I’m studying and sparring with the right material.
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>>59404
Lignitzer is only 6 plays and gives you a good starting base for german sword and buckler. I dont know why so many people think the only german manual is i.33
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>>59411
Is this what you’re referring to? https://www.keithfarrell.net/research/sword-and-buckler-by-andre-lignitzer/#_ftn20
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>>59411
Because Lignitzer also needs a basis in german fencing, it's not really transparent if you don't know the repertoire of german blows and actions.
Also it's only 6 plays, it's somehow more than enough but it might bore some people after some time, maybe?

There's nothing wrong with Lignizer, but you can't really dive into it, same with I:33 for that matter.
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>>59429
Where would you advise beginning then?
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>>59430
Well if you want to learn german techniques longsword sources are better understood so it might be an idea to do longsword -> s&b or to learn lignizer's play from someone who went that way.

Then again, Manciolino appears to just be the superior s&b base but well.
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>>59431
Noted, like I mentioned earlier I’m starting a club without prior experience. Perhaps we could start with Longsword then if that makes more sense.
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>>59432
The unfair thing is that longsword is much more "supported", more gear, much more analysis, many more people are doing it compared to basically all of the other weapons, that's why it's the defacto basic entry weapon, especially if you have no other experience. It doesn't mean that it's the best per se, but you'll find much more modern books about it, more discussion, varied gear, etc...

Also, I'll just say this but if you have no prior martial arts knowledge, how exactly are you going to start a club exactly?
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>>59433
>how exactly are you going to start a club exactly?
By studying the techniques and sparring? This is HEMA, nothing legitimate
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>>59431
>learn german techniques longsword sources are better understood so it might be an idea to do longsword -> s&b
Im the guy who suggested lignitzer and that exactly what I did lol. I agree entirely with your previous post as well, I didnt realize the other anon was starting from square 1.
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>>59433
I suspect the reason for this is in part because of the prevalence of longsword sources which is itself because it was predominantly the nobility who utilized them. Peasants dont read fencing manuals.
>>59434
Sure, thats one way to go about it if you want to reinvent the wheel, but youd benefit greatly from having some kind of instruction from someone who actually knows how swordsmanship and/or fighting in general works before trying to make your own interpretations.Hell, do sport fencing for a little while then taking on HEMA manuals is a fat better strategy than just diving into the books and hoping you figure it out.
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>>59434
Is this a club or just like a study group between friends? Because how are you going to attract people into it if you have nothing to bring.
"We don't know how to fence, come discover how to with us!" isn't really a great catch phrase.

If it's a study group, yeah, doubling on re-inventing the wheel, this is 2021, not the mid-1990s, there's actually good teachers of HEMA now.
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>>59441
>I suspect the reason for this is in part because of the prevalence of longsword sources which is itself because it was predominantly the nobility who utilized them. Peasants dont read fencing manuals.
Yes absolutely, though in the end, there's not that much longsword sources or traditions, it's also because of the "cool" factor and because it's far away from oly fencing, at least compared to rapier for instance (even if rapier fencing and smallsword fencing are quite distinct). When you need to create an identity, you need to separate yourself from what already exists and longsword fencing is very distinct both in our own ideas and in actual fact from modern fencing, and also it's got all the cool pre-made baggage of "knights, chivarly, etc".
Then if you read the actual sources... I mean, Talhoffer is pretty. Fiore is quite alright, but early KdF is very cryptic. We benefit from almost a full generation of early HEMAist now, but frankly, longsword from the sources isn't necessarily the best place to start compared to even sidesword/rapier.

But now it took of and there's no going back, longsword will stay the basic HEMA weapon for quite a while I suspect and frankly, there's nothing wrong with that.

Also the idea that longsword sources were prevalent is our modern take. We don't know the sources we lost, maybe we lost a good deal of s&b sources. Just because it arrived to us doesn't mean it represents a good idea of the sources that were in terms of proportions, that's really one of the most basic history lesson you need to remember, especially for medieval sources. Still, just because of the barrier fighting scene, it's obvious that the longsword had its place in the fencing society. The manuscripts were a nobility thing apart from the sword business, it all changes with the printing press, with the "urban middle-class" becoming the primary demographics for salle fencing.
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Is there a medieval weapon that doesn’t require you to learn an entire system to be effective? I frankly hate the idea of sparring with weirdos. Can’t I just grab a spear and become a competent spear user without meeting with a bunch of redditors once a week for training?
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>>59492
Seems difficult but you might start with Johann Georg Pascha treatises, there are some solo drills with staff weapons
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>>59492
>Can’t I just grab a spear and become a competent spear user without meeting with a bunch of redditors once a week for training
As easy as it is to kill anyone with a sharp object its even easier if you practice. Theres no situation where training with a weapon will be bad for you.

Thought this also begs the question, why do you want to learn a medieval fighting style but not fence with others? Why do you care at all if youve learned properly if you dont intend to fight?
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>>59505
I want to fight my brother and my close friends, not strangers.
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>>59603
If you are a newbie, you are not going to become effective simply by fighting the same other inexperienced people, that's a terrible way to become "efficient", whatever that means in this context.
There's a reason for the master / student training method. If everybody could just "grab a spear and become a competent spear user", then there would be no system, no master, no HEMA to speak of. Try to apply that to any complex opposition skill.

It doesn't mean that you won't get fun out of it, but if you want to become a competent fighter, learning from a competent fighter and sparring with as many and as different persons as possible is the good idea.

Also no you don't need an entire system to be effective, you need to know how to throw a good downward strike and a good upward thrust, to hold yourself and to hone as best as you can timing and measure, then the feeling of a bind. There's a reason why it many very different systems, those three last things are the most important things to grasp. Developping this amongst inexperienced people is going to take a long time though.
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>>59492
Most of them don't require any system. You just swing or you stab.
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NEW THREAD >>59635
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>>59492
>Can’t I just grab a spear and become a competent spear user without meeting with a bunch of redditors once a week for training?
No.

>>59603
>I want to fight my brother with a spear
Only do this if you want to actually literally kill your brother. Pole weapons including spears are not remotely safe to spar with, especially for some backyard tard.

I realize you're going to disregard this, but I want you to remember it when one of you dipshits injures another badly.





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