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/jsa/ general

Japanese Sword Arts (JSA) General. A thread to discuss Kendo/jutsu and Iaido/jutsu. OP post is tailored towards Kendo since it is the most commonly practiced JSA.

>What is Kendo?
Kendo is a modern Japanese martial art which descends from Japanese swordsmanship (Kenjutsu), namely the Hokushin Itto-ryu school. It is practiced with shinai (bamboo swords) and armor. The philosophy of modern Kendo is based off of Budo concepts and aims to develop the self through practice.

>How is Kendo scored?
There are four valid target areas in Kendo: the top and sides of the head, the wrists, the torso, and the neck. Strikes made to these areas must contain correct footwork, posture/body movement, cutting path, use the correct part of the blade, a display of high spirits (through shouting), and zanshin; or the continuation of mental and physical readiness to attack again.

In competition, the match is judged by 3 referees who will raise flags corresponding to the color of the ribbon worn by the competitors. At least 2 referees need to agree to award a point. Match duration is best out of 3 points.

>Where can I find a Kendo club or dojo?
https://www.kendo-fik.org/organization/affiliate

Start with the International Kendo Federation (FIK) and navigate to your country or region. If you live in a particularly large country, your country’s federation will most likely consist of regional federations. Some federations also include Iaido clubs.
>>
>>45111
Its a pity this thread isn't more lively. I think most sword people here are into HEMA
>>
>>45111
What is in the kenjutsu arts that was lost from kendo?
I've heard that they train to walk so smoothly that you can't see them move.
>>
>>46019
What do you mean lost? I'd argue that kendo hasn't really lost anything(other than, maybe, mune tsuki and grappling), as it hasn't had those things to begin with. If you are looking for things that kendo and kenjutsu do differently, then you have to be specific. Even between kenjutsu styles there are huge differences in how they do some things.

>I've heard that they train to walk so smoothly that you can't see them move.
Some kenjutsu styles place a big emphasis on eliminating vertical movement, which makes it more difficult to see them coming closer. Of course, you shouldn't have much vertical movement in kendo either.
If you mean stuff like namba walking, then that's just some modern, inefficient bullshit, that people are trying to peddle off as ancient

>>46005
Yeah, I'd say that's the case everywhere online. HEMA has a far bigger online presence.
>>
>>46046
I think many people conflate modern kendo with the gekken of the Edo and Meiji era.

I don't know if any use namba aruki specifically, but I do know there are styles that put a big emphasis on exactly how you walk or lunge which can be rather specific.
>>
>>46046
>mune tsuki
I wish they brought this back. If you can't get past someone's kamae and stab yourself in the neck or chest then it should be counted against you.
>>
>>45111
I have some experience in kendō and iaidō. Hopefully once travel restrictions end I could take my examinations abroad.

>mune tsuki
>I wish they brought this back
Absolutely. I wouldn't mind a heavier and more complex bōgu if it means more datotsu-bui. Kesa would be lovely~.
>>
>>46098
Ironically most early Bogu provided much less protection than the modern gear.
>>
>>45111
based and comfy kendo thread. I just got my bogu this month and getting my ass kicked every practice is awesome.
>>46098
>mune tsuki
That sounds really neat, and we probably wouldn't honestly need much alteration to current bogu assuming it were treated like the tsuki we have now and only really introduced once you know what you're doing
>>
>>46103
I've seen in person two old kendō bōgu (one from late 19th century in Japan, and other from around 1910 in Brazil), and although they looked almost the same, I noticed:
- Kote were way smaller
- Tare was more narrow
- Dō-mune was a little bit higher
- Tsuki-dare was shorter
- The whole bōgu looked flimsier

I can only imagine the pain of receiving a strong kote with a kotō type shinai.

>>46105
>I just got my bogu this month
Congratulations! Is everything back to normal in your country?
>>
>>46106
Thanks! It's not back to normal per se, but my uni club in southern California is allowed to practice in person on a basketball court outside.

Top two answers on the board: we asked 30 kenshi to name one way to deal with practicing outdoors
>kendo in shoes
feels weird, makes it easy to scuff up your hakama on the concrete by catching it under your shoes
>barefoot suri-ashi on hot concrete
pain
>survey says...
It's a lose-lose tradeoff but most of our club has chosen shoes. I'm just grateful to be back
>>
>>46109
Congrats on your bogu, and it's good that you're back to practicing. We'll be back to normal practice in a few weeks (midwest), right now we're doing virtual practice

>>46019
>What is in the kenjutsu arts that was lost from kendo?
This question doesn't make sense. Kendo is its own thing. Nothing was "lost".
>>
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>>46109
>feels weird, makes it easy to scuff up your hakama on the concrete by catching it under your shoes
There are toed shoes that allow for more natural flexibility with the foot. I imagine with normal shoes the extent in which you can flex each individual toe is pretty limited, making for some uncomfortable footwork (and creating bad habits). Only downside is that they're like $80-120.
>>
>>46163
>>46109
I was going to recommend jika-tabi, but honestly, these look much better. Still, you can get jika-tabi for 30usd, but the fit is probably gonna be much worse.
>>
>>46164
>Still, you can get jika-tabi for 30usd
These would probably be better considering practicing outside is only a temporary circumstance.
>>
Why do threads suddenly become excessively pedantic when they are centered around japanese stuff?
>>
>>46163
>he took the bait

countless research papers published into how these do immense damage to your feet.

>b-b-b-ut muh natural feet

yeah humans weren't walking on concrete 20000 years ago fuckhead
>>
>>46219
Not sure what you mean, are you talking about the Japanese terminology? The reason is that they are Japanese arts, the same way some HEMA guys use German words for certain techniques and the CMA people occasionally use Chinese words.
>>
>>46256
>>What is in the kenjutsu arts that was lost from kendo?
>This question doesn't make sense. Kendo is its own thing. Nothing was "lost".

>What do you mean lost? I'd argue that kendo hasn't really lost anything(other than, maybe, mune tsuki and grappling), as it hasn't had those things to begin with.

this is beyond normal conversational levels of pedantry. This is like writing a school paper.
>>
>>46220
>countless research papers published into how these do immense damage to your feet.
Sauce? By my understanding the risk is only present if you overuse them right away with your broken garbage feet used to being in braces all day or do something stupid that would have a high risk of injury in standard athletic shoes. Barefoot running and minimalist shoes have saved me from needing knee surgeries.
>>
>>46274
Ehh, I always write like that. I blame going to Uni for ESL.
To be fair though, it's a question we hear all time, and we hear answered, very badly, by people who don't know what they're talking about.
I asked him to be more specific. It's a very broad question. For everything kendo does or doesn't do I can think of a kenjutsu style that does the same. It's not a case of loss, it's a case of different approaches. I can't really explain all the differences in single post here.
Besides, if you go into the oly fencing thread and ask them about what is in HEMA that was lost in oly fencing, you'd probably get a pretty similar answer.
>>
>>46274
>>46304
Everything in Kendo can be found in some school of Kenjutsu, mainly Hokushin Itto-Ryu. Through gekiken and the environment in which Kenjutsu was practiced, some techniques proved more effective than others and those are the techniques that are more commonly trained.

If there was an alternate timeline where the common venue for gekiken was not a flat/wooden floor with a single opponent (like on uneven, grassy ground with one team versus another for example), then Kendo would look quite different.

And on top of that, the techniques that are in Kendo were adapted to the use of the shinai. Although small cutting technique does exist in Kenjutsu (and it does cut), you wouldn't want to use small cutting technique with a real sword.

As >>46046 stated, the differences between the Kenjutsu schools are just as different as Kendo is to Kenjutsu. Once again, Kendo is its own thing.
>>
>>46337
I definitely think hokushin itto ryu had a big influence but not the only one. the earliest standards were put in place by a committee of people from various styles. Itto ryu in general was probably the biggest influence, but the list is pretty diverse.I sometimes think the people from other really popular gekken styles like shindo munen ryu got shortchanged. Many of them helped lay the groundwork for the revival of the Japanese sword arts, but the end product doesn't seem to reflect them much.

I could be wrong on this but I don't think any of the kendo kata are directly taken from Itto ryu
>>
Has anyone here been to Kitamoto Seminar?
>>
I'm looking for some frames / lenses that will help with my vision while wearing the men. Contacts are out of the question for now. Anyone have any recommendations?
>>
>>46603
Anyone familiar with the articles on budojapan? some of them are really good. Here is one on Ono ha Itto ryu. A look at their fundamental technique and the first few kata.

https://budojapan.com/feature-articles/ono-ha-itto-ryu-yuji-yabuki-kiriotoshi/
>>
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>>46005
I wish to combine HEMA and koryu kenjutsu into a hybrid system that can defeat automatic rifles.
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>>46106
I remember reading a few discriptions of taryu jiai (matches between different kenjutsu styles) using bogu and shinai. Despite the safety gear they could get rather brutal, thrusts especially could result in the other guy on the ground with some bad injuries.
>>
>>47423
They also had no judging system, match outcomes were subjective at best, and the best way to decisively "win" a match was to beat the other guy down.
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>>47530
My understanding is some cultural rules developed over time, like not hitting people where there was no protection. Another common rule in the later period was the best of three bouts.

Its also worth remembering that unlike sparring in your own dojo a taryu jiai was not necessarily a friendly match, the reputation of the school was often seen as riding on the result. Issuing a challenge was often seen as implicitly stating "I'm better than you," So there was not the same incentive to hold back like in a modern setting.
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>>47606
>the reputation of the school was often seen as riding on the result
There was also financial involvement as well, since kenjutsu became commercialized when commoners were allowed to train in what were traditionally reserved for the samurai class. They were literally fighting for their livelihoods in some cases.

Also found a playlist of a bunch of waza, looks pretty neat:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhLjXk9FIlJFLRBPlNu2X5RfkuCMHAjRj
>>
>>47642
Commercialization and the possibility of official patronage. Being incorporated into the official training regime of a major domain was a big source of clout, and income.
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>>47642
The playlist is interesting, according to the poster they are a group of kendoka reconstructing the fifty techniques of Takano Sasaburo's Kendo Kyohan, pretty much the definitive book on the subject during his lifetime.

https://kenshi247.net/blog/2011/05/25/takano-sasaburo-1862-1950/

And here are the descriptions of the techniques in Japanese and English

https://kenshi247.net/blog/2014/04/21/takano-sasaburos-kendo-kyohon-pre-war-kendo-waza/
According to the article his fifty techniques were a reworking of a 68 technique list by Chiba Shusaku, the founder of Hokushin itto ryu, but Ive never managed to track down this list.
>>
Whats the most anime teleports behind you 1000 cut style I could train in? Are Ittō-ryū styles still a thing, that an ameripleb would be able to find? Thanks.
>>
>>47891
>Whats the most anime teleports behind you 1000 cut style I could train in?
Find a ninjutsu mcdojo and get your money taken from you.

If you're American, any kenjutsu school is going to be hard to find. You'd be better off training in Kendo.
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>>47893
figured thatd be the case
Would probably have to move states to find a legit school or learn Japanese
Kendos everywhere but seems meh
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>>47896
>Kendos everywhere but seems meh

It really depends on what you want to get out of it. If you want to do samurai larp, then kenjutsu is the best place for it.

That said, you'd learn more applicable swordsmanship from kendo than you will from kenjutsu. Most (if not all) of kenjutsu schools do not spar and spend their time doing kata. Where as in Kendo, everything taught is found in Kenjutsu but the breadth of techniques is limited in scope.
>>
>>47901
This is good info
I'll reevaluate my goals then, thanks
>>
>>47902
Sure thing. Just as an overview:

Kenjutsu - Mostly kata, as to what they focus on varies from school to school. No sparring. Lots of techniques to learn but no real way to "test" them. (Wide but shallow skillset)
Kendo - Commonly available, lots of sparring, competitions/tournaments. Skillset is limited in scope, but you'll be able to perform under pressure (Narrow but deep skillset)
Iaido/jutsu - Art of drawing and cutting with the sword. No sparring, lots of kata. Eventually you'll use a real sword.
>>
>>47901
I won't defend all koryu, because they are very diverse, but I heavily disagree that you will learn more applicable swordsmanship in kendo. All the pieces of kendo can be found in various kenjutsu schools but the way they are strung together doesn't always make sense from a practical standpoint.

Also koryu kenjutsu schools are easier to find than ever. Its worth looking into if your interested in Japanese swordsmanship.
>>
>>47903
I know this is just an overview but I would not describe koryu skill sets as shallow. Nor do I agree with the idea that techniques are never tested.

For starters many schools test their techniques. Ellis Amdur has written extensively about this, but he is not the only one. Several schools have testified that at high levels the techniques are pressure tested or sparred with. In some instances they have been adjusted based on the new information from these tests. Now these schools might be a minority, but they are also schools you are more likely to find in the west due to various historical reasons I will not go into.

Second is worth pointing out kenjutsu kata can be a lot more demanding than most people think. they can get rather dangerous at higher levels due to the speed, intent and variation that can be added in. Rory Miller for example describes experiencing tachypsychia: the sensation that everything is going in slow motion due to extreme stress.
>>
>>47891
Itto ryu is still alive with several offshoots in the states and Europe. That said most koryu, and especially Itto ryu tend not to be very flashy. Flashy tends not to work very well under stress.

Koryu also tend to expect a strong commitment. They want people who will stick around for life, not one or two years, so if your interested you need to approach them seriously and ready to contribute to the organization.
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>>47891
The flashiest, most "anime" style I can think of is Tenshinryu hyoho.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvUm4uZ-Lys&t
One of their head teachers also likes to cross-dress as a maid, for demonstrations. That's gotta count for some extra anime points.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrcm1nfNKnE

I don't think the style exists outside of Japan though.

As for Itto-ryu, I don't know about its state in America, but I'm sure you can find it. Anything is possible, if you are rich enough.
>>
>>47906
>>47909
>>47912
Thats i'll look into these further
My main hold up is the whole life commitment part for the more hardcore styles
>>47920
was more a joke, but thats hilarious
Hopefully rich neet soon
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>>47920
Ok i cant tell if this has serious use cases or is just next level larping lol, very flashy
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>>47937
>>47920
Tenshin Ryu isnt really koryu kenjutsu. My understanding is the head is a fight choreographer who bought the scrolls and "rights" to a style from the family that owned it, and is now promoting the hell out of it.
While some of them are very athletically impressive I'm not sure its functional as a fighting system, even an anachronistic one.
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>>47948
Makes sense, who knew you could just buy a lineage
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>>47949
Its not that uncommon, but for the most part the people who do it are shunned by the rest of the community.

There are also a number of individuals who make a living finding elderly people in charge of a school with no students or successor, train with them for a very short time and "inherent" the style. Often they claim headship of a number of schools acquired this way. Again, this is looked down upon and such people are usually shunned, but they have the scrolls and all the paperwork which says they are in charge of the style, or what's left of it at any rate.

It all goes back to the system that turns traditional arts dated back to the Tokugawa period as a kind of intellectual property. Its mostly meaningless in terms of actual skill and ethical legitimacy, but it can cause problems on occasion. At best it can clarify who the senior official of a style is based on direct succession.
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>>47909
>Several schools have testified that at high levels the techniques are pressure tested or sparred with. In some instances they have been adjusted based on the new information from these tests
Yeah, but how are they tested? Gekken?
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>>48145
Well that also depends. Methods vary as the true test (shinken shobu) is no longer possible. Amdur has written about his interactions both in his own style and without, including friendly matches with bokken or shinai. Amoung the schools h e has mentioned doing this with include Maniwa nen ryu and katori shinto ryu. He's also done extensive cross training in modern grappling styles, instructors in the internal arts and police combatives, Other styles benefit from having members who are already highly skilled in other weapon and grappling based martial arts: other ryuha, kendo, fencing, judo, etc, who are capable of directly challenging what they are being taught. Some make use of furoku shinai, some do gekken like you mentioned. Several ryuha remove certain safety features from kata as they go along until kata becomes a type of free flow drill or limited sparring. Some use many of these methods at once. Some of this training is geared towards improving the kata; eliminating or adjusting techniques that do not produce consistent results. In other cases the testing is simply geared to allow practitioners to develop practical skills and interpretations of the kata, while treating the kata themselves as antiques not to be changed.

I'm not saying all schools are like this, but there are plenty of them out there and many are in the west.
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>>47642
>>47800
The same group also tried to recontruct some of the old kumiuchi wasa (grappling) I like their guys experimental spirit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLpA1wP91QU&list=PL4F3B815AFF6CF873

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynl9wnH2pPE&list=PLX7bfPeeaWCDJ1NUFIxaOGnpZw2P9AkxG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnGoUSQA9WU&list=PLX7bfPeeaWCDnwd3Krx4WBOiZf1olWQWj

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mykBX_HCPgs&list=PLX7bfPeeaWCDbwyJvVqQ3klJhyMQIb96Q
>>
>>47909
>various historical reasons I will not go into
Please do.
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>>49186
OK. Here is a very rough summary. Westerners in koryu essentially started with Donn Draeger. Draeger did judo as a kid then fought in WWII and Korea, he was a big guy and trained in a ton of stuff, Japanese and Chinese, and beyond. By the sixties and seventies his name was pretty well known among American Martial artists in Japan and a lot of younger Americans and Europeans sought him out when they got there.

Dreager's writings often give people the image of a rigid traditionalist who thought sparing was useless but this is not accurate, he was just critical of the emphasis on martial sport that developed after WWII. He in fact felt many koryu schools were dying or on the verge of becoming mere antique curiosities with little martial value, so he directed many of these young people to schools he felt deserved to be preserved, in hopes that fresh blood would strengthen them.

Draeger's evaluations had biases. He very much favored the martial arts of the Sengoku and very early Edo period over later styles that focused on dueling and shinai keiko. Many of his views would be challenged by later martial artists and academics, including some of the people who associated with him, but regardless of the validity of Draeger's judgement in these matters, by the nineties many of these people had returned to their home countries to become teachers. They taught styles that were old and traditional but with masters open enough to accept western students and even grant them authority. A lot of them also knew each other either through Draeger, or through training at the same dojo for a time.

So the foundation of koryu in the west was started by people who from the get go were directed to strong arts, and associated with a no bullshit mentor. Now nearly forty years later some gekken traditions expanding to the west, and there are many many independent branch schools and western teachers.
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>>47920
The guys who organize courses if this style in my country are related to bujinkan
'nuff said
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>>49347
I didn't know they had already spread.
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>>47891
Ittō-ryū is literally the least animu thing you could imagine, did you get your idea of what it is from Blade of the Immortal or something? Actual Ittō-ryū is a source of tons of the concepts and technique in modern kendo, historically they popularized (but didn't invent) shinai, bōgu and gekken in general.
>>
>>49196
Thank you Anon, very cool!
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>>49357
>>47912
>>47891
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndkh8MQw9ZM
For reference this is the oldest surviving branch of Itto ryu. To be glib their solution to almost any scenario is cut straight now and take the center line. This tends to be the case for most of their branch styles historically, though Mizuguchi ha and Kogen itto ryu appear to be a bit different. at least from what I have seen.
>>
Any techniques that involve striking with the tsuba?
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>>49664
You mean like in European swordsmanship where you use your sword as a makeshift mace? Not that I have seen. There are some strikes with the Tsuka, which make much more sense with a tachi if you ask me since their tsuka tend to have a much heavier kojiri
>>
Anyone read Eric Shahan’s books here?
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>>45111
For those doing Kendo, have you noticed differences in focus, or attitude towards Kendo from different nationalities? Say you trained in japan for awhile or had an exchange student at your dojo, do they share the same philosophy about Kendo, its purpose, what constitutes "proper Kendo" or is it all the same?
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>>49913
There are different approaches towards Kendo that I noticed.

Younger Japanese tend to view Kendo more as a competitive sport, which is natural given that Kendo is part of the school curriculum, frequent shiai between schools, and the age bracket. Most Japanese don't continue their Kendo career after highschool or university once they get a job, but for those that do continue practice tend to appreciate more of the martial aspect of Kendo.

In the west, Kendo is started later in life. The average age to get to Shodan is somewhere in the late 20's, early 30's (compared to 12-13 in Japan). Kendo is viewed predominantly as a hobby, and I believe westerners begin their Kendo journey with that appreciation and focus on the martial side of Kendo more than their Japanese counterparts.

Westerners also are better at doing the kata than Japanese because the Japanese are so focused on the shiai element of Kendo.
>>
>>49960
The sport vs martial kendo is a common response, though I was thinking a little deeper. For instance my interactions on line suggest many kendo people in the west are interested in the historical elements of kendo, not necessarily cross training in koryu or iaido but just how kendo came to be what it is and an interest in JSA in general. I would guess the average Japanese kendoka might not be as interested in these aspects?
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>>45111
Otake Risuke recently passed away. For those who don't know he was a sihan of Katori Shinto Ryu, one of the oldest verifiable styles of Japanese swordsmanship, and through Draeger's books and TV specials like the Way of the Warrior was the first view many westerners got of koryu.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBX0qS-DLNE

He was already in his late fifties when this was filmed but you can still see he was amazingly fast and strong for his age.
>>
>>50976
RIP
>>
https://youtu.be/ZAqL3SC-lGw?t=77
is this legit?
>>
>>52074
it's very codified and study-like (like aikido in general), but it's indeed based on the practical curriculum that a japanese foot soldier received while preparing for war. in fact, not only tachidori studies how to try to deal with an armed opponent while unarmed, but you could easily see normal aikido techniques as dealing with an unarmed opponent while being armed yourself. a prime example is the study of wrist grabs (aihanmi and gyakuhanmi). nowadays people rule them off as abstract preparation for shomenuchi/yokomenuchi, which in turn prepare for gedantsuki and jodantsuki; however, a more appropiate interpretation would be an opponent stopping you from sheathing your sword, which really justifies the way in which the uke tries hard to maintain contact with the wrist
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>>52074
Weapons disarms are a thing in koryu jujutsu styles but against someone who knows what they are doing I would say its a pretty far fetched proposition. One of the Yagyu was said to be particularly good at it, but still only gave your best chances as one in three. Not great odds to bet your life on.

As for the ones in aikido, the guy in the video Saito was better than most, but his weapons work was extremely questionable. He learned from watching and copying Ueshiba, who himself didn't really formally study swordsmanship for very long, but more copied and experimented on his own. While the strikes in this video appear to be on target, they are strikes, not cuts, and it looks like Uke is badly compromising his own posture in the process.

I couldn't find the quote source, but I remember reading that at a shihan meeting in Japan someone stood up and said they should stop doing these weapon disarms because people who train in weapons know they are impossible and are laughing at us.
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>>47891
>Whats the most anime teleports behind you 1000 cut style I could train in?
I heard the anime Toji no Miko had a sword fighting consultant.

Kanami = Chidori/Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu
Hiyori = Kogarasumaru/Kashima Shinto-Ryu
Mai = Magoroku Kanemoto/Hokushin Itto-Ryu
Sayaka = Myoho Muramasa/Onoha Itto-Ryu
Kaoru = Nenekirimaru/Yakumaru Jigen-Ryu
Ellen = Echizen Yasutsugu/Taisha-Ryu
Yukari = Okanehira and Dojigiri Yasutsuna/Niten Ichi-Ryu
Maki = Usumidori (Hoemaru)/Shindo Munen-Ryu
Suzuka = Kujikanesada/Kurama-Ryu
Yomi = Suijingiri Kanemitsu/Shinjin-Ryu
Yume = Nikkari Ao'e/Ten'nen Rishin-Ryu
>>
Any good YouTube channels that talk about Japanese swordmanship?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_ZtgMnPsvw
>>
>>52201
Kendo has Andy Fisher's "The Kendo Show"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt9ijyEJRrvIOFu-N3urSJw
Honestly, I just think that it's a marketing gimmick for his shop, Kendostar, but it works on me. His videos are also really beginner friendly, he explains everything very clearly and simply, even someone who doesn't do Kendo would understand it. He is also very "by the book". His opinion is basically what the ZNKR says it should be, for him Kendo is Kendo and nothing more or less.

For Kenjutsu any channel that is decent and comes to mind just puts out videos of their kata, or their practice, with no, or very little narration. Instead of following a channel, you are better off joining a Koryu group on facebook, that has its members post cool Kenjutsu videos they find or make.
Kenjutsu doesn't really have anyone like Matt Easton, who is both knowledgeable and is okay at presenting videos.

I don't do Iaido or Battodo, and I never really cared for them, so I don't know of any good channels for them.
I know that there is a guy called Kaz, that makes Iaido videos. Don't really care for him, something weird about his movement, could just be me not liking Iaido.
I'm also not a big fan of the JSA videos of the guy you posted, his videos seem to gloss over important details, and misrepresent a lot of things, in order to make a concise and presentable video for the average weeb.
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>>52295
>>52201
A few channels like Seido have started to post interviews with practitioners and scholars among other things https://www.youtube.com/user/BudoExport

Kendoworld also posts some stuff, mostly about kendo but sometimes branching out. https://www.youtube.com/user/KendoWorld
The guy who runs kendoworld is a 7th dan and a professor with several good books on the subject of kendo and samurai culture.

They are however mostly demonstrations. There are also a lot of good written articles. Koryu people in particular seem a lot more comfortable with interviews or articles rather than the kind of youtube videos put out by Matt Easton and others.
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Octopuses do not have any bones with the exception of their beaks. So if you are responsible and depraved enough to be literally the life support of your 8 limbed friend, you can debeak it like how you’d declaw a cat and then push your member into its feed chute.

You can then let it subsist on your baby batter.

The Octopus is smart. Very smart. It will learn that without its beak, it cannot feed on anything else but your human seed that has to be milked from you.

Every morning, you will feel your clothes slide off and a damp weight on your lower half.

The sensation creeps up on your body until most of the jiggly mass has enveloped the entire length. It will start pumping as fast as it can for it is hungry.

The animal gyrates its empty stomach and the folds of its brain rubbing on your glands, begging for nutrition.

You climax and give the marine creature’s breakfast. The pumping slows down but doesn’t stop to milk out the last few drops of its meal.

Looking into its yellow animal eyes, it looks back with a thousand-yard stare. This will be routine for all of its meals for the rest of its 3-5 years on this god forsaken planet.
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>>52310
This isn't a flesh sword thread. However, I wonder what kind of diet and routine one would need to produce enough ejaculate to feed an octopus large enough to envelope an adult penis.
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>>52074
https://kogenbudo.org/the-use-of-weapons-in-aikido-training/

Relevant: here is Ellis Amdur: a koryu guy who did a lot of aikido when he was younger going through the problems of typical aikido weapons practice.
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In the old /kendo/ thread we had a guy who practiced Jikishinkage ryu.
Is he still we us?
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>>52916
Yeah, I'm still here. Though it occurs to me that I've not had Jikishinkage-ryu practice for almost a year now. Luckily my local kendo club still managed to keep training, but hopefully kenjutsu will start up again soon as well.
>>52186
>>47920
"Busou Shoujo Machiavellianism" also had some pretty accurate kenjutsu. From what I've heard the mangaka is a martial artist. He wanted to represent the styles as best as he could, so he researched everything pretty thoroughly. The anime is held back by bad animation though. The descriptions of the main girl's techniques were pretty much spot on, it even includes stuff that was supposedly a secret technique, but the animation is so bad that it often doesn't even resemble what it should look like in real life.
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>>53126
>"Busou Shoujo Machiavellianism"
According to this anon it does HEMA pretty well.
https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/176004983/#q176011053
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Apart from the obviously absurd stuff how is Gamaran in terms of Kenjustu?
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I have finally decided to sign up in an iaido dojo! I have no idea what I'm doing, and have no experience in JSA. What should one expect from a first class? Is there any faux-pas to avoid? Anything I should do?
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>>53126
Hey, not the guy who asked for you, but I remember in our conversation that most lines, including seito, do some form of sparing but according to this great article the seito line, or at least this dojo, doesn't practice it.
https://budojapan.com/kenjutsu/ksj20201014/
I was just wondering if I misunderstood or maybe something so guys do on the side. I was also wondering on your thoughts on the article in general.
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>>53232
>Is there any faux-pas to avoid? Anything I should do?
Don't stress out over it to much, keep an open mind, and don't fret over the little stuff. Do your best to learn etiquette and copy what you see.
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>>53280
I was going off of what I was told by my senpai.
There is also this video, which, I believe, is of the Seito-ha:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg_P3QCaA7I
I don't know how frequently they do it. If they are anything like Makita-ha then it's very rare, done about once a year, and the frequency varies a lot by the dojo. The only line that I know that does frequent shinai-geiko is Naganuma-ha. With the other lines I don't know anything, beyond the fact that they do it sometimes. I think I mentioned this in the other thread as well, sorry if I didn't.

The article seems good. The writer makes some very minor mistakes, nothing really important.
The end of hojo's spring part symbolizing cutting a head off at a seppuku ritual is not something I've heard before, but that's almost certainly a difference between lineages. The way we finish it looks a bit different and has a different explanation.

It's interesting that he mentions Chinese Neijia. Ogasawara Genshinsai Nagaharu, the 4th soke, came up with "ryubi", one of the techniques discussed in the article, after being inspired by local bare handed martial art styles during his stay in China. He is also said to have reorganized and improved the style.
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>>53311
>It's interesting that he mentions Chinese Neijia. Ogasawara Genshinsai Nagaharu, the 4th soke, came up with "ryubi", one of the techniques discussed in the article, after being inspired by local bare handed martial art styles during his stay in China.

From my own readings he lived in China for a time and studied a local system, possibly of style of spearmanship? In any case most Chinese martial arts at the time did both weapons and empty handed combat.

This was also around the time a number of jujutsu systems with a clear Chinese influence were being established such as Yoshin ryu and Kito ryu, which both originally had weapon curriculum. The topic of Chinese influences on koryu has been a popular subject in the last decade or so. In early Edo such connections were often played up, but in modern times they were often obscured, perhaps due to the rise of nationalism.

On a related subject we argued a bit about kashima shinryu before, and we talked a little about Kunii's involvement in Jikishinkage ryu. I looked back through what I had read and from what I found his relationships were with Shinkage ryu and the Nen ryu, with any Jikishinkage ryu connection being far in his family's past.
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>>53316
>From my own readings he lived in China for a time and studied a local system, possibly of style of spearmanship? In any case most Chinese martial arts at the time did both weapons and empty handed combat.
I mentioned empty handed styles, because empty handed techniques are specifically what ryubi is said to have been inspired by. I suppose, I should have wrote empty handed forms, to be a bit clearer.

>The topic of Chinese influences on koryu has been a popular subject in the last decade or so.
It's an interesting topic, though when people discuss it they seem to have a vested interest in proving it one way or the other.
Dan-Dao FaXuan, for example, in different articles, was said to have both inspired, and been inspired by, Japanese swordsmanship, specifically Shinkage-ryu.

>On a related subject we argued a bit about kashima shinryu before, and we talked a little about Kunii's involvement in Jikishinkage ryu. I looked back through what I had read and from what I found his relationships were with Shinkage ryu and the Nen ryu, with any Jikishinkage ryu connection being far in his family's past.
The writings I have are long due for a re-read as well. Took a quick glance at Kashima Shin Ryu lineage. The 9th generation shihan is the last one I recognise from Jikishinkage-ryu. If this is the latest connection, then it was sometime during the early to late 18th century.
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>>50976
>Otake Risuke
Heard he helped choreograph the fights in Seven Samurai.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GF5U83UIX1o
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>>53361
Yes, and according to them they also had a strong connection with local shinkage ryu swordsmen. They claim the shinkage ryu teacher Kunii trained under had also trained in kashima shinryu for a time. I personally think they look a lot more like shinkage ryu than they do jikishinkage ryu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrPM9X3mdJE

>>53398
I always thought Kurosawa's main choreographer was Sugino: another Katori shinhan.
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>>53398
this fictional scene is actually based on a far older story, no idea if its true or not, about Yagyu Junbei the sword instructor to the 3rd Shogun.

Like in this version he had a match which apparently ended in aiuchi (mutual striking) but insisted he had won. The loser then insisted they fight with real swords and after trying to get out of it Junbei agreed. This time they challenger died, but only Junbei's kimono was cut by his sword, leaving him unwounded.
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>>45111
Did any legitimate Chinese sword arts survive the martial arts master purges of the Cultural Revolution? I've been wanting to get a utilitarian and historically proper jian (Chinese straightsword) but I'm not really into the flashy forms and whippy swords I've seen used in modern wushu forms. It looks like there was a World Jianshu League that took a HEMA-style reconstructive approach to Chinese swordsmanship but they seem to have disappeared. Do any Japanese sword arts still teach straightsword forms or did that die out centuries ago when Japanese straightswords fell out of use?

My melee weapon experience extends to several years of Dagorhir/Darkon, a few years of SCA heavy weapons, and some moderate dabbling in FMA, SCA fencing, and Olympic fencing. The bulk of my martial arts background is from wrestling and judo so I enjoyed the grappling aspect of the Dagorhir ruleset and, despite having long arms, tended to have more fun fighting very close to my opponent rather than at the edge of my reach. If you have any Japanese sword art suggestions for me (not limited to straightswords) I'd like to hear them.
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>>53697
I'm not an expert on the subject and I do not study any Chinese arts, though I know some people who do. My understanding is the forms preserved in legitimate lineages of Chinese arts like Chen style Tai Chi are authentic historical Chinese weapons forms. I have no idea how effective they are, or how much they do with them outside solo forms, but complete reconstruction would be unnecessary for CMA. My understanding is that modern Wushu tends to be more performance based, and does not reflect historical CMA.

Straight swords fell out of popularity in Japan before the rise of the samurai and long before any system that has been preserved.
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>>53697
This guy has some old Chinese manuals.
https://www.chineselongsword.com/
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Bumping with another budojapan article, this ones about Colin Hyakutake Wakin 5th dan in kendo, menkyo in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu (Musashi's art) and the head of the Kage Ryu Choken Battojutsu, one of the few arts that still does nodachi stuff.

https://budojapan.com/kenjutsu/kdr8-20210516/
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Was using the blunt side of the katana really a thing people did when they didn’t want to hurt someone?
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>>53741
Thanks Anon, I've been looking through these. Any idea on his quality of translation? I'm thinking about picking up one or two of his translated copies, partially for interest in the subject matter and partially because it's side-by-side English and Mandarin with both hanzi and pinyin and could be a good language study exercise.
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>>54381
Not to my knowledge. I can't say it never happened but it really wasn't a great option. Sure it wasn't sharp, but it was still a narrow band of steel. Without protection a hit from that could break a bone or give you a concussion. If they were trying not to (really) hurt someone they would usually use a staff weapon. In the case of duels were the goal was not to kill they would typically use a wooden sword or sometimes an unsharpened sword, or even a shinai once those were invented.
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>>53398
>>53421
Nah it was Sugino Yoshio, he also choreographed Yojimbo (which is clear when Mifune performs a straight application of gyaku nuki no tachi, the fourth battojutsu kata of TSKSR in one scene).
Here's Mifune in a typical katori stance, he apparently became friends with Sugino and his sons and according to one swedish student (iirc), he was visiting the Sugino Dojo every now and then. Sugino was very impressed by Mifune's dedication and made him work even harder.

Sugino's work in Seven Samurai is particularly notable because many actors knew nothing about swordplay. The guy who played Kyuzo, the master swordsman in particular (guy in the famous duelling scene posted), had zero knowledge on how to handle a sword so this speaks to Sugino's work to see him in action.

Regardless, it's truly sad to see Otake Risuke passing away, he was one of the oldest koryu shihan and a very influential figure in introducing koryu to the west (just like Sugino for that matter). A great loss...
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>>54767
I feel Sugino has often been denied the respect he deserves in the west, both because of the legitimacy questions about his son continuing to teach KSR (This has, to my knowledge been cleared up), and because the available video of him is from when he was very old, and thus his movements do not have a lot of apparent speed or power like those of Otake in his prime.

Very cool that Mifune took the time to do some training directly under Sugino. Their legacy to cinema is a credit to both of them, and to KSR.
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>>54776
Otake and Sugino practiced the same koryu, but the emphasis is placed very differently in their demonstrations. I think it's clear that the way Otake shows kata is much more in line with what westerners typically value and connect to practical efficiency, which is speed and power as you said (I'm not saying Otake did that to please westerners, it goes before that of course since his teacher showed a similar sort of speed in his demonstration in front of Hiro-Hito). Of course, demonstrations doesn't mean much, I know first hand that people who studied in the Sugino dojo can be just as fast and powerful, it's just not what's put upfront in demos.

Regardless, Sugino too was very well vested into getting westerners along, he had tons of foreign students which shows that something was going in aml KSR at that time, same for other proeminent practitioners like Hatakeyama.

I think it's mostly people who don't know better who believe that Sugino is less than Otake, both were phenomenal teachers and martial artists and both the westerners and japanese can and did thank them for that.

Also, there's many more than one video of Sugino lying around, but indeed most are while he was 70+ (being born in 1904) and that informs how he shows stuff. Then again, younger people of the Sugino dojo don't blitz kata like the Otake dojo, it's more like a way of demonstrating (and not doing) kata than anything else. The speed of the Otake dojo also exists to hide stuff for instance, just like the slow pace for that matter. Most of the people who practiced with both said that their practices are similar in all the core ways. What matters is in the dojo, not in videos at the Meiji Jingu or the Budokan.
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>>54807
Yes, Sugino studied under a different shihan than Otake. My understanding is there is also some factionalism and politics involved in all of it, which has been settled, at least publicly.

Many Japanese also attach a lot of importance to speed, and some schools even put a lot of importance on power generation, but I get your point. If you look at other videos of Otake's group training only the most senior people can blaze through the kata like that, and there are many other considerations besides speed and power, especially when it comes to teaching. Ive certainly heard some of Sugino's students were incredible but I have never met any in person.
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>>45111
can you draw a sword from the back?
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>>54894
It mostly depends on the attachment and the length of the sword but yes. You typically wouldn't need to, back carry was mostly done for long swords that would be then untied and drawed with the help of a page or simply by yourself before the actual fighting.

Short swords were carried sometimes in the back, near the hip and drawed sideways.
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Know any other scenes where someone prevent their opponent from drawing their sword? This was something done in the past right?
https://youtu.be/DAUFrMtInIo?t=5
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>>53398
>https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GF5U83UIX1o
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>>54970
You can see some examples of that sort of thing near the end of both these videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y03I7ZJggs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibKCaHSJn4I
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>>54381
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zFoN83UvH1w
12:57
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>>55509
Tenshin-ryu is made up though, entirely modern, so they might do it, but they aren't koryu so that wouldn't answer "did they do it?".
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>>54973
?
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>>50976
>>55509
Anymore of these documentaries? Does Yagyu Shinkage Ryu have one?
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>>55607
I can't really find any documentaries about Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.
Sports Japan has a few documentaries, mostly on kendo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylR5rkxPw2Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgXgE20t_v0&t
This one, very briefly, touches on Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKyj7-uxoIs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwQGqTfM06o
This is the only other docu that focuses on kenjutsu.
The choice of schools is, just like with Tenshin Ryu previously, interesting, to put it charitably.
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>>55607
You might have better chance looking for texts rather than videos.
Maybe look into Dave Lowry?
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>>55617
>The choice of schools is, just like with Tenshin Ryu previously, interesting, to put it charitably.
You don’t like Tennen Rishin ryu?
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>>55646
I do, they are 2nd on my list of styles I wish I could practice.
I just don't like the line, or the group to be specific, shown in the video.
I really like the Kondo lineage, the one I attached a picture from. I like the way they do kata, the way they do shinai geiko, and the way they do gekken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhWvRnKhDTg&t

This is info I heard quite a while ago, so I might be wrong.
The group shown in the "roots of kendo" video belongs to the Matsuzaki lineage.
The Matsuzaki lineage has stopped doing shinai geiko and gekken. It's current headmaster very much discourages gekken, and says that people should do kendo, if they wish to do some form of shinaigeiko, alongside Tennen Rishin ryu.
The specific group shown in the video decided to reintroduce gekken into their lineage, and they did so in the way shown in the video.
But honestly, none of this info matters. I just simply don't like the way their gekken looks. I think it looks like a mess.
To me, they look like the Kondo lineage, but worse.
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>>55655
I heard the same thing, my question is if the dojo still represents a legitimate lineage since the master seems to have broke, in spirit if not in legality, with his original teacher. This kind of detail can differ depending on the koryu and who you ask.

As for their gekken, "like Kondo but worse" is kind of what you would expect from a group that reintroduced the practice with the same techniques. Same material not as much experience. Though I have heard different things about Tennen Rishin Ryu, that it survived but a lot of material was lost, or that one line only survived mostly as gekken technique and reconstructed the kata from there. I don't know how much is true, though considering their headmaster died in teh bakumatsu it would not be surprising that things got passed down somewhat piecemeal.

What about the jikishinkage ryu in the video? their gekken looks a lot different from the video here: >>53311
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>>55658
>As for their gekken, "like Kondo but worse" is kind of what you would expect from a group that reintroduced the practice with the same techniques. Same material not as much experience.
I'd probably still dislike it, even if they were more experienced. In no small part because I think that their equipment looks ridiculous. And because of the ridiculous, overprotective armor, they use techniques that, to me, seem unrealistic. They kind of remind me of Buhurt.

>What about the jikishinkage ryu in the video? their gekken looks a lot different from the video here: >>53311
Their gekken looks OK. Not the worst I've seen by far, but then again, I've mostly seen bad gendai budo gekken. I don't really have any strong feeling about it, one way or the other. Altough, I do dislike the way they overextended their right arm.
As for why it looks different, that could be because it's not Jikishinkage Ryu... maybe.
I've heard of Akiyoshi Hiromitsu before, so I tried looking into him, but found nothing. He seems to be a swordsmith. He claims to be the 17th headmaster of Jikishinkage ryu, but no mention of which line. When I asked around in my dojo and online, no one has heard of him, or they have, but they only knew as much as I did.
Of course, this doesn't mean that he can't be the grandmaster of a line of Jikishinkage Ryu, but even the people I'd go to for info on people like him, know nothing about him.
It's also worth mentioning that Jikishinkage ryu's gekken varies a lot, the gekken of Naganuma-ha, for example, looks a lot like Kondo line Tennen Rishin Ryu gekken, for example.
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Some recent posts in the HEMA thread have got me curious. Are there any Koryu that had to go through a similar reconstruction effort, or are they all living traditions?
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>>55763
Every legitimate koryu has a living legacy, techniques that have been passed down over and over again through the generations. However many koryu also have scrolls, some of which have drawings and detailed descriptions of techniques. It was quite common, historically, for kata to be reworked, invented ,or discarded due to various circumstances. For instance many older schools added material specifically for dueling and fighting with shinai in the Edo era. Many also stopped, or reduced their practice, of spear, naginata and other battlefield weapons that were no longer being used.

Reconstruction takes place, and probably a lot more than most schools are open about since their can be some stigma attached to it.Off the top of my head, I know Toda-ha Buko ryu reconstructed their nagamaki and kusarigama curriculum, with the help of detailed records and students who had also studied other styles. At least one line of Yagyu Shingen ryu practices naginata kata that were created or recreated from their bo techniques. Kashima Shinto ryu reconstructed their iaijutsu which was lost.

Usually these are small portions of the larger curriculum. The problem, in my opinion, only arises when someone tries to reconstruct the whole art, or only learned a small portion and reconstructed the rest. Such things have limited historical value, and often questionable martial value.
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>>55763
The other post was pretty on point, but indeed, the answer is yes and yes. For a specific as detailed as it can, I suggest looking for what Ellis Amdur did in Toda-ha Buko-ryu since he talked about it quite a lot.

Overall it all depends on the ryuha tradition. Each of them is quite distinct. The opposite example would be somehow TSKSR, where Otake Risuke said explicitely that they lost part of the curriculum (nagamaki and some naginata kata) but since kata are "tenshin shoden" (transmitted from heaven), reconstruction is for them pointless and undesireable. This was mostly Otake's public view but it's not like many think like him, in TSKSR and elsewhere.
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>>55607
>>55617
They did Itto Ryu as well

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ugSF-VIc5ho

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=csV75es4zJw
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More like japanese sword farts
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>>55820
Is there a list of all these sports japan documentaries?
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Do Japs look down on Amerifats trying to learn Kendo?
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>>56112
Probably more like they don't care. If you bother going and living in Japan for kendo, you'll probably found some xenophobes but just as many people glad to have you on board.
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>>55820
>Watch the whole video and they don't actually show that old dude swinging that odachi around like a kensei.
Disappointment.
>>56112
In my personal experience, Japanese only have a problem with round-eyes who fit the bill of the obsessed, immature self-identifying "otaku" acting like pubescent girls over their pop-culture. They find it flattering when regular foreigners want to learn about and experience their cultural peculiarities with sincerity. They don't whine about appropriation like some Western negress who sees a white kid with cornrows.
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>>56117
>They find it flattering when regular foreigners want to learn about and experience their cultural peculiarities with sincerity
That’s the impression I get. If a well adjusted Japanese dude approached me wanting to learn how to shoot cowboy guns or something I’d be thrilled to share.
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>suddenly the quality of the thread dropped
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>>56129
One or two guys stopped posting, which represents about 25% of this board’s traffic.

Thank you for your contribution
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Apparently there’s some drama surrounding this school anyone know the details?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SArkI4YEBMM
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>>56411
Here is their public statement on the matter
https://todahabukoryu.org/about-training-faq/truth-and-falsehood/
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>>56411
Having the old videos of the 80s with Nitta Suzuo, this was painful to watch...
It's just another japanese politics thing, ThBr has been in some sort of limbo after she passed away, with the new soke being sickly and then dying in a tragic manner, it's the fate of many schools but still. That they now have to deal with somehow buying the way into the school is pretty sad and you might suspect that it's just the japanese having revenge over Nitta for introducing so many westerners at shihan status. They were clashing over this about 50 years ago and it's hard not to see this as payback to humiliate her former students.
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Are there any good sites to get background information on these past swordsmen?
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>>56490
I mean people like Ito Ittosai, Iizasa Ienao, Kamiizumi Nobutsuna etc
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>>56472
>Nitta Suzuo
Any online videos?
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>>56496
It was the old NHK videos of the late 70s and 80s with among others younger Ellis Amdur and Kini Collins, but I've never bothered to look for them on the internet to be honest.
I didn't have much luck with ThBr, maybe looking at Amdur's blog?
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>>56490
Best I could find
https://samurai-hi.com/kenngou-jidaijyun-21161
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>>56472
>>56472
>>56496
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPR0cF_snbE
Here is a video of her successor. And here is how Ellis Amdur remembered him:

There are some movements in Buko-ryu where the weapons are joined and you do a wrapping of one weapon against another, and flip/deflect aside the other’s weapon to cut them. I have been training a lot using spears to generate nairiki. One can, through this, generate power without tension or windup; it is, rather, a pulse in which your entire body functions as one unit, augmented by force directed from the ground. I returned to Japan a couple of years ago and I was working with another shihan and he had my weapon pined, and without moving, I did that and his naginata was flung upwards and hit him in the face. I repeated this several times, despite his resistance. The way we had originally learned this technique was a more muscular way of moving. Nakamura Sensei came over and said: “That is not the way Nitta Sensei taught me“. I responded that it was not the way she had taught me either but that I had been working on this. He then stopped the class and said: “Everybody, Amdur Sensei is doing something that is better than what we learned; I am going to ask him to teach us all“, which I did for a mere 45 minutes. . .The last time he came to the dojo, he was emaciated, he had to be helped to his feet, but he wanted to give a last lesson, to emphasize what we, the members of Toda-ha Buko-ryu must maintain. He said that there were two things that were very important in Buko-ryu. The first one was to make sure that the techniques were big and the cuts powerful. For the second, he demonstrated the same thing that I did. This man was dying of cancer, and although I instructed him only once, he had trained alone, for a period of about a year, up to a point where a student told me that he was as good as me.

https://guillaumeerard.com/aikido/interviews/interview-with-ellis-amdur-part-1-martial-journey-from-aikido-to-koryu/
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>>56490
>>56492
I don't think there is any single site that's like what you are looking for.
You might find good articles on tozando and the like. If you want info on lots of sensei, you'll have to google around a lot, maybe check around on archive.org, Library Genesis, the ebook IRCs and other similar places. Also, don't limit yourself to English sites. French sites, for example, can be mostly legible, when google translated, and they might have articles that others don't. There is a lot of good info out there, but some of it is difficult to find.
If you find a good article, be sure to archive it immediately. I've lost some good stuff, because I didn't archive them.

If you can find it, I'd recommend Sugawara Makoto's book, "Lives of Master Swordsmen", it's a good introduction to some of the most influential swordsmen. It's not on any of the book piracy sites I checked. Depending on your country, it might still be in most book stores, maybe in two halves, depending on how dumb the publisher is.
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>>56809
Why the fuck is that book $200?
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>>56846
Welcome to the world of rare and out-of-print books. If you're lucky your library can get you a copy through interlibrary loan.
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>>56846
I got it for about $10. But the publisher in my country is an asshole, so they removed the Musashi part, and they sell it alongside yet another translation of Go Rin No Sho. I'll probably try and find it soon.

>>56886
Yup, martial arts books, in my country at least, get one round of print and that's it, unless it's one of the big ones, Hagakure, Go Rin No Sho, Art of War.
This means that for about 2-3 years you can get it at a normal price, no problem. After about 5-10 years, unless you get it from one of the big book retailers, that trades between locations and keeps their prices set, the price starts to vary a LOT. I got books for $2 and saw some go for well over $100.
Hell, some martial arts books don't even get a real release. They just hold a big seminar, where after training you can buy the book, and that's it.

Luckily, my country seems to be pretty big on sharing knowledge. Even university teachers give links to PDFs, instead of telling you to buy the books.
In fact, while writing this, I managed to find "Lives of Master Swordsmen", but only in Hungarian.
Still, it's here if it helps any:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/kard.pdf
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I'm thinking about signing up for kendo classes at my uni this fall, what should I expect?
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>>57915
Dorks.

No, hear me out. When you first sign up, it's going to be otaku faggot city; but this is like a gym after New Year's. After some weeks, the vast majority of these homos will have dispersed (and will then go on to claim that they "used to train kendo for awhile myself" for decades). You have to hang on until this happens, simply because there's no alternative. All uni Japan-related clubs are like this and it's unfixable in the medium term.
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>>57920
He's doing a class, not joining a club. He's stuck with the lot of them the whole semester unless they drop out during the add/drop period at the beginning, which seems unlikely.
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>>57922
Well it's a bit of both. It's not a proper club or anything but it still an extracurricular sport like any non-varsity sport.
>>57920
I don't particularly mind dorks, I mean stuff like this and Hema are just fairly dorky pursuits anyways (unless you're in japan and it's just an actual competitive sport). So as long as they're not ultra spergs it shouldn't be too bad I think?
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>>57929
Kendo tends to filter the otaku dorks pretty quickly because it's very physical. Most of the people who stick with it are the typical martial arts type. Maybe a little autistic but nothing too severe. Just dudes who like stick hittin'
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>>57915
About four months of kata and paired drills where you're going to have to be very precise in movement and judging distance along with some calisthenic swinging. Then they'll probably put you in bogu.
Imagine the smell if you stick with it thru Summer heh heh...
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This might be a dumb question but is it rare to find a good place to train Judo and Kendo? I'd like to learn both along with MT and BJJ. Any martial artists here tried learning multiple arts at once? Is it a dumb idea?
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>>58303
Many people have experience in multiple arts, but I think doing more than two at a time would be hard, as would starting a new one without already having a few years in the first art behind you.

Kendo and judo you could probably start at the same time, because they are very different, but unless your already quite athletic I think starting them both at the same time will be hard on your body.
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>>58307
That makes good sense, thank you anon!
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>>57915
Just starting out, you'll be doing a lot of basics. Don't expect to be in armor by the end of the semester since normally that takes around 4-6 months.

You'll learn: etiquette (reiho), footwork, kamae (stance/guard), basic striking and mechanics of a cut, and understanding of distancing. Possibly do some kata as well.

You'll most likely focus on ki-ken-tai-no-ichi, or the unification of the mind, sword, body. It's a Kendo way of saying mind and body coordination and it is a big component to yukodatotsu.

You'll do a lot of striking, most likely with a partner who will hold a shinai at the target height; or maybe strike someone in armor.

And like anon stated in >>57920 . You'll encounter otakus. If its a university class, then they'll probably stay for the duration of the semester since tuition and a grade is riding on it. I've noticed those types either flake out once they realize that Kendo is about slow and steady development of your abilities through hard training and nothing like the drama of their anime, or they grow out of their weeb phase.

As an experience: it's a lot of fun, very competitive, one of the few weapon martial art that you can do full contact strikes with, its physical activity that is demanding but not dangerous, and genuinely an enriching pursuit.
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Thoughts on jinichi kawakami and masaaki hatsumi?
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>>58386
Highly skeptical of all these supposed ninja schools. Hatsumi is the most comical but I don't know if he's actually less legitimate than the other ones. My guess is that you need to be able to read Japanese to know for sure.
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>>58386
>>58393
If the ninja thread is still up you can find more info there, but long story short, Hatsumi is not legitimate. Its not real ninjutsu, and it odes not qualify as koryu. Kawakami I don't know as much about. Some people have suggested he inherited something legitimately, but there are way to many questions and not enough answers about his stuff for my taste. At the very least I don't think much has been verified as to how old it is and where it came from.
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>>58406
I decided to look into Kawakami just a little bit, there doesn't seem to be a lot of info in English online. But, his story has the same ol chestnut that most bullshido stories do. He was taught by a mysterious old master, the last heir to ninjitsu apparently, a man named Ishida of whom no records exist. This is a huge red flag right at the start, his whole lineage is basically unverifiable.

On the other hand, he doesn't lean into the typical ninjitsu bullshit at all. He doesn't describe it as much of a martial art even, according to Kawakami "ninjitsu" is really just a handful of traditions relating to explosive and poison making, tips on physical conditioning and being inconspicuous, and even some recipes for lightweight rations. So in other words, identical to the covert ops type training you can find anywhere else in the world. Which aligns pretty neatly with what legitimate historical proof there is of shinobi. I kinda hope he does have the real thing if only to put to bed all the crazy bullshit surrounding ninjitsu. But until we have anything on this Ishida guy it's all ahistorical reconstruction.
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Can anyone redpill me on Tensei Shoden Katori Shinto-Ryu? My friend is planning to go train it in Japan and he says it is the oldest living school in Japan.
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>>59830
. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu is one of, and debatably is, the oldest schools of kenjutsu in Japan, going back to the 15th century, and branching from regional traditions that are most likely far older. There are international groups, both legitimate and non-legitimate. You can see a documentary on it from the early eighties. The mainline is currently taught by one of his sons. There are some other offshoots, some legit and some not.

That said, I hope your friend is making arraignments. It varies from place to place but in Japan its best to have someone introduce or vouch for you when you ask for instruction. It might not strictly be necessary but if I were in his shoes I would at least send an email to make sure everything is kosher.
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>>58408
so what you're saying is it fits the modern conception of what ninjutsu is supposed to be *suspiciously* well?
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>>59839
>>59830
>The mainline is currently taught by one of his sons
There is no mainline in TSKSR, there's two legit dojo, the Sugino dojo and the "Otake" dojo who is now led by Kyoso Shigetoshi, the son of recently deceased Otake Risuke. The dojo affiliated to them are legit as well I suppose.
Recently, the older brother of Shigetoshi, Nobutoshi was expelled, but there's still a lot of loyalty towards his side as their father "sided" with him (or at least defended him), and Nobutoshi himself had the highest ranking of the school, so regardless of legit or no, you can expect good teachings from schools supported by Nobutoshi's side. Don't know how it'll evolve with Risuke's death though.

The soke of the school doesn't teach, hence why the teachings was done by authorized shihan. It used to be Otake Risuke and Sugino Yoshio back in the post-ww2. When Sugino died, there was a period of limbo but his son Yukihiro was brought back into the school. What'll happen with the Otake side is still to be seen, but it's Shigetoshi now who is backed up by the soke and is thus the legit teacher.

TSKSR isn't just a kenjutsu school though the sword is the master-weapon that organize rest of the practice. It includes many weapons and teachings, primarily sword, naginata, bo and iaijutsu, at higher levels it involves spear, shuriken, and deeper understanding of the base weapons. There's also teachings on esoterics, strategy, "feng shui" and wrestling techniques. It's the oldest known and because of the vitality of its teacher, was a very active school during the 20th century, it was one of the first to welcome westerners in both dojo.
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>>59914
>There is no mainline in TSKSR,
I suppose that is true, at least between Shigetoshi and Sugino. According to Amdur there is a Date line dating back to at least the Edo era which is completely separate. If your with Sugino I didn't mean to offend, but your likely aware of how controversial the issues with the Sugino line used to be and I guess that still effects my thinking even though things have been cleared up.
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Does anyone in Japan still teach Hiten Mitsurugi-ryū?
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I just started in seitei iaido and shinto-muso-ryu, which is mostly about using a short staff (jojutsu) but has sword techniques to help with paired kata. I didn't expect it to be such a good forearm workout. My muscles around my radius were achier the day after training than anything I've done lifting weights in the gym.
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>>59971
Shinto Muso Ryu is an amazing art and probably one of the more widespread ones, so there are lots of English speaking teachers and a lot of stuff has been translated.
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>>59917
>If your with Sugino I didn't mean to offend
There's no offense, don't worry. Besides, regardless of your unusual kind tone for the place, I don't come to 4chan without some skin.
The problem is with TSKSR that it's logically internal policies, so it's hard to understand what's going on when you're not directly involved. I've been taught in the Sugino part indeed and though I've a lot of respect for Otake and all, I really don't hear much about them bar what is out. In the end, their business is theirs alone, and the soke.

I've yet to read the entirety of Amdur's book (a shame I know) but yeah, I've heard of "Noda-ha Katori Shinto-ryu". He is pretty much the only one who discussed it fairly openly though, so it's kind of hard to know more about it. There's a brief video of Noda Shinzan doing katori iaijutsu but that's about it. Then again, it's their prerogative, if they survive that way, more power to them.

>>59920
Yes, they published like three educational films recently.
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>>45111
It hurts bros.
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>>60828
Time to change your wife.
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>>46005

Doesnt help a lot of japanese and koreans are shifting to HEMA from kendo (this is a big drama in itself).

I still think japanese weapons martial arts is going to have some big reformation in 5-10 years in response to HEMA. A lot of people probably chose kendo because it was the closest to "sword fighting" that wasnt MOF at the time.

I almost did kendo until i discovered HEMA. But i also have a distinct hatred for the progression system in eastern martial arts.
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>>60843
It may be because I'm biased towards my art, as you probably are to yours, but I actually think the opposite is going to happen.
Kendo is not going anywhere and I very much doubt that there is going to be any big change in it. The only change I can see coming is a change in marketing.
Kenjutsu might start to reincorporate more gekken into their practice, since we seem to be returning to more sparring in all arts. Of course, that was the norm 200 years ago, far before the existence of MMA, or modern HEMA.

HEMA on the other hand seems to be facing some big changes, with talks of gear regulations, experimental archeology as a way of learning HEMA, regulatory body for instruction, universal rules, sticking to manuscripts vs efficacy in competitions, and arguments over whether these things are good or bad.
To me it seems like HEMA is actually going to go the way of JSA, where it'll splinter into different closely related arts with different focuses(I know, that's not exactly what happened with JSA, but it's a simple, quick explanation), not that this isn't already happening, but I think that it's going to become more and more pronounced.
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Here’s a take of mine about TSKSR omote no tachi
This isn’t something official, just my current personal understanding and rationalizing of the series.

First kata is about all first intention strikes at every common guard’s openings and direct counters to such strikes through sen no sen by ukedachi. The strikes are developped through the center line going primarily high and low. The spirit is yo 陽.
Second kata is about relentlessly evading strikes and coming from under, absorbing the attacks and refusing the enemy’s fight, trapping him from below. The spirit is in 陰.
Third kata is a mixture of the previous two, feeling the enemy’s pressure and coming across his strikes and thrusts to hinder him, offending by going from one side to the other. The spirit is in’yo 陰陽 with a slight emphasis on yo.
Fourth kata is responding and anticipating the enemy’s pressure and intents, binding with his blade in order to defeat him preemptively at every turn. It’s an antithesis to the previous one as movements and energies are going in circles instead of lines and crosses. It’s about a fluid exhaustion of the enemy’s means of offense and defense rather than frustrating them by going across the lines. The spirit is in’yo 陰陽 with an emphasis on in.
The series develops like a logical dialectic, thesis, antithesis, synthesis and finally antithesis again.

This is my own take, it doesn’t need to resonate with other’s practices, but here it goes.
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>>60843
Kendo is the top martial art in Japan, taught to some extent in every school. Unless HEMA is far bigger than I imagine it to be in Japan I don't see any reformulation happening in reaction to it. In the west however it certainly is drawing alot of people looking for a sword art. I think the way HEMA is now really caters to what most westerns think a martial art is supposed to be. I mean they might imagine Asian clothes and a lineage etc, but when it comes to how they will be learning they don't imagine having to adapt to a completely foreign pedagogical system as well.

HEMA is definitely here to stay, but just as it has not replaced or caused a reform movement in Olympic fencing I don't know how big an impact on other arts. I think the other anon raises some good questions about the direction it will go as well.

>>60853
> The only change I can see coming is a change in marketing.
Have you seen some of the Japanese promotional koryu videos on youtube? They can be pretty over the top.

Will more koryu adopt sparring as a norm? Maybe, I certainly think some of them will, particularly those with a strong history of it, but I have serious doubts it will become the norm. Also, though I feel that experience in sparing really does sharpen an individuals ability to deal with the unexpected, from the preservation, and even the teaching side of things I can also see how it could be a negative influence.
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>>60843
>I still think japanese weapons martial arts is going to have some big reformation in 5-10 years in response to HEMA
HEMA doesn't even know to do with itself in 5-10 years. Kendo has been around in its current form since the 19th century and Kenjutsu for even longer.

Kendo has also been growing worldwide according to the regional organizations, but as >>60853 stated, the marketing for JSA to western audiences is pretty much nonexistent and will probably be addressed in the next decade.
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>>60853
>It may be because I'm biased towards my art, as you probably are to yours, but I actually think the opposite is going to happen.

Nah, theres already a big shift in a lot of kendo communities, its why its not unheard of to hear a kendoka has dabbled in HEMA or is actively doing both. A big complaint i hear about kendo is how restrictive it is to the point it hurts the actual martial art.

>with talks of gear regulations

You cant make a universal gear because every weapon is different, this aint like kendo where you can wear minimal gear and wave around a wooden stick.

>experimental archeology as a way of learning HEMA

What, this aint viking reenactment where people are guessing how vikings fought, its got written manuscripts to back it.

>regulatory body for instruction, universal rules

Itll fall into the same pitfall thats plaguing Kendo and MOF

>sticking to manuscripts vs efficacy in competitions, and arguments over whether these things are good or bad.

This greatly depends on the school, but its usually what wins fights that determines what gets used. It definitely wont go the route of kendo where techniques or moves get banned.

>>60892
>Unless HEMA is far bigger than I imagine it to be in Japan

Its growing really big in japan and korea from what Ive seen. Its gotten to the point the korean kendoka have been trying to pump out numerous videos on "why kendoka is better" and doing biased matchups (like forcing rapier fencers to start super close).

>>60892
>HEMA is definitely here to stay, but just as it has not replaced or caused a reform movement in Olympic fencing

MOF is in a really bad spot, theyre desperate to make the sport interesting so theres lots of rules changes. I wouldnt be surprised if classical fencing takes over because thats a more interesting sport imho.
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>>60928
>Kendo has been around in its current form since the 19th century and Kenjutsu for even longer.

This is its problem, its failing to adapt with the times and wouldnt be surprised if Japanese weapons martial arts completely changes in 5-10 years. HEMA right now is in a very good spot and rules make sense (other than the debacle over right of way). Not to mention the use of actual steel weapons and less focus on grinding through grades/belts makes it much more attractive to people interested in a weapons martial art.

>>60928
>Kendo has also been growing worldwide according to the regional organizations

Translation: Organization says its growing bigger for marketing reasons.

Dont take my posts as a means to shit on kendo, but kendo does have some serious issues to address in order to survive in the modern era or keep its current fencers. This is coming from a person who almost took up kendo instead of HEMA.
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>>60956
>>60958
Come on, man, there's no excuse for that formatting for two long posts in a row.
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>>60956
I can see it making an impact in Korea, but from what I know of Japan its limited to a few clubs, Japanese sword laws mean they also have to use aluminum feders. Also, from what I have seen with Korea, the technical level of Kendo is higher than the level of Hema there. . But even if HEMA replaced Kendo in every nation other than Japan, I have a strong feeling that many in Japan would just shrug, since the interest in Kendo and the level of teaching and competition there is pretty much unequaled anywhere else.

All this is of course theoretical, all indications is that Kendo is growing worldwide, not being replaced.
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>>60956
>This is coming from a person who almost took up kendo instead of HEMA.
No offense, but both of your posts are conjecture with nothing backing it, and what I've quoted above is the crux of your post. You're claiming you know what is going on with the Kendo community without being apart of the community. The Korean Kendo youtube channel you keep mentioning frequently does Kendo vs X videos because they're doing it for fun, it isn't supposed to be some grand standing statement about the practicality of Kendo.

HEMA isn't a threat to MOF fencing or Kendo. HEMA is its own thing, and people who want to do HEMA will do HEMA. People who want to do Kendo will do Kendo.

>Itll fall into the same pitfall thats plaguing Kendo and MOF
It's disingenuous to equate whatever perceived issues MOF has with Kendo, they are two entirely separate martial arts/combative sports with different rule sets.

>It definitely wont go the route of kendo where techniques or moves get banned.
Like what? Kendo has more or less maintained the same curriculum since the 19th century.

>Not to mention the use of actual steel weapons and less focus on grinding through grades/belts makes it much more attractive to people interested in a weapons martial art.
I'll take being able to do full-strength strikes with a shinai than having to dial it back because I'm using a steel sparring sword; and you really don't have an understanding of the rank system if you're viewing it as something to grind through.
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How can I study the blade if there are no kendo schools near me?
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Does anyone have experience being an adult beginner in this thread? I'm 28, considering getting into Kendo because it looks like fun and I'm a little baby who likes samurai swords. Showing up to a gym full of Japanese-Americans who've been doing it since they were 12 seems weird, that seems to be the environment at my nearest club, and I'm just curious what I'm in for.
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>>61088
The nice thing about Kendo is that it can be practiced by anyone at any age, and everyone's journey in Kendo is different so it's pointless to compare yourself to someone who has been doing it since childhood. I was also 28 when I started, you'll be fine.

The majority of westerns start Kendo at a later age, the average age to pass Shodan in the west is like 30-31, and that's usually after a year of practice.
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>>61093
Sounds good, at least I won't be pic related if white people trying kendo tend to be my age anyway
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>>61095
As for what to expect in terms of curriculum, I refer you to this post >>58383 , minus the whole bit about not being in armor. Kendo that is offered as a university class tend to avoid putting people in armor because of insurance/liability reasons.

That's a general guideline, all clubs are different and all people are different, so your mileage may vary.

There's also this video that explains some general need-to-know items
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skjRqnxrkqk
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So, I'm unfortunately unable to do kendo given my eye doctor's orders. As an alternative I was trying to look at kenjutsu or iado stuff in my area and had found this one place, but everything about it just screams culty to me.
https://katorishintoryu-usa.org/
Is this the typical sort of attitude for koryu schools?
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>>60853
>Kenjutsu might start to reincorporate more gekken into their practice, since we seem to be returning to more sparring in all arts. Of course, that was the norm 200 years ago
This. Gekken can't be dismissed as nontraditional or inappropriate, and what's more, much of the gekken that's been done already just reveals the inability of even supposedly advanced practitioners to act decisively and cleanly under the pressure of a resisting opponent.

>experimental archeology as a way of learning HEMA
This is literally one assmangled fatbeard from Poison Island. You can disregard this.

>regulatory body for instruction, universal rules
Very unlikely to occur; HEMA is much more like koryu than kendo, organizationally.
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>>61584
If your talking about the stuff about divine revelations that is pretty common for Koryu from the Sengoku and early Edo period. Buddhist and Shinto rituals and pedagogy were highly valued by samurai at the time. Many of them went to shrines not only to practice the religious rituals but also to meet and train with other warriors doing the same. Many of these rituals involved deep states of meditation, coupled with the fact that by our standards, people at the time were highly superstitious, means that your doing to have to deal with a lot of eastern mysticism in most koryu.

The oath and rules are also pretty standard, though some schools are more casual about those things than others. There is no standard but conservatism is the norm and most traditions care a great deal about protecting both the details of their curriculum and their reputation.
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>>61628
> just reveals the inability of even supposedly advanced practitioners to act decisively and cleanly under the pressure of a resisting opponent.
I've never seen video of an advanced practitioner doing gekken, outside of perhaps some Tendo Ryu, and Owari Kan Ryu, and those people look pretty clean to me. Ive seen some Nen ryu that was also pretty clean, though I am pretty sure they were doing an attack defense drill rather than pure sparring.

That said, if a practice was not there at the founding, was a adopted during the 19th century, and then stopped in the 1st few decades of the 20th is it really traditional? Its certainly not part of the core tradition for many schools, though I will grant you it was the norm at one time.
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>>61584
This is just the typical veneer of TSKSR, especially under the Otake. If the teacher really studied under Otake Risuke and Nobutoshi, there's chance that the guy is pretty good and that you'll get quality instructions. I should note that this will not be the "official" school as unfortunately, Nobutoshi has been made hamon by the soke. If you're only here for good instructions that doesn't matter.

You've got to understand that these schools are looking for grifters who go in, stay a couple of years and leave. Joining this sort of school is a long-term commitment and this sort of presentation is to try to tell you that this is some sort of grand thing.

The best thing is always to get there, see a class, talk with the students and the teacher and see if you like. TSKSR is one of the "premier" koryu school and you're likely to find good instructions if the guy's credentials are real.
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>>61646
>That said, if a practice was not there at the founding, was a adopted during the 19th century, and then stopped in the 1st few decades of the 20th is it really traditional? Its certainly not part of the core tradition for many schools, though I will grant you it was the norm at one time.
Traditional schools that were doing pretty much purely kata-geiko doing gekken in the later Edo-era is just a marketing ploy really. In the case of certain schools, it's a central part, in many others, not really.
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>>46005
>I think most sword people here are into HEMA
I'm a HEMA fag and would love to try JSAs but there's nothing nearby.
Also the naginata is the best looking polearm next to the german halberd, these things are just pure perfection
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>>60995
>Also, from what I have seen with Korea, the technical level of Kendo is higher than the level of Hema there

They adopted HEMA pretty poorly imho because they think its like kendo. Plus theyre super biased against it and a lot of HEMA clubs just pump out videos of "This is why kendo is better!" and do shit like forcing a rapier fencer to start at a short distance. Koreans are just super salty, but theyll get over it eventually.

>>61019
>HEMA isn't a threat to MOF fencing or Kendo.

Id say it is, MOF is having a bad issue trying to keep the sport fresh and theres now a lot of overlap with MOF fencers with HEMA.

>>61019
>>Like what? Kendo has more or less maintained the same curriculum since the 19th century.

Forgot the names, but a kendoka friend of mine was interested in HEMA and was amazed there was no concept of "banned moves". Some shit that only gets taught at high ranks and really only for demonstration purposes or some shit.

>>61019
>I'll take being able to do full-strength strikes with a shinai than having to dial it back because I'm using a steel sparring sword;

Then use a synthetic waster.

>>61019
>and you really don't have an understanding of the rank system if you're viewing it as something to grind through.

Going off by friends who do kendo and just general observation of the scene. It really forces you to stick with clubs for a long time so you wont get anywhere near a decent rank unless youve been with the club for 10-20 years (but this is a problem that plagues a lot of eastern martial arts).

>>61628
>This is literally one assmangled fatbeard from Poison Island. You can disregard this.

If you mean Shadiversity then yeah, hes an absolute laughing stock in the historical and HEMA circles here.
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>>61851
Why would Koreans into HEMA make Kendo is better videos? You certainly don't see that anywhere else you find HEMA. There is no shame in admitting that HEMA, being freshly introduced to Korea, trails behind the well established Kendo scene in terms of skill and participation.
>amazed there was no concept of "banned moves".
Yes, Kendo's rule set is restrictive compared to classical Japanese systems or HEMA. Fair enough. Most experienced Kendoka are not only aware of this, but many see it as a plus, allowing kendo to focus on honing some very specific skill sets to a very high level. Kendoka tend to be fairly honest with new people about what they are getting into.
>t really forces you to stick with clubs for a long time so you wont get anywhere near a decent rank unless you've been with the club for 10-20 years
You don't get a decent rank in Kendo for ten to twenty years because the level of technique expertise and the time necessary to attain it are just that high. Yes in Japan many champions are in their twenties and thirties, but they started in middle school or before. And many kendoka will testify that outside a tournament setting, senior instructors are better than them despite being twice or three time their age. The inability to hope into Kendo, train three years, and start your own club isn't due to some backwards Asian thing as you seem to imply, its because a Kendo instructor with three years under their belt would be hopelessly out of their depth.
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>>61851
>If you mean Shadiversity then yeah, hes an absolute laughing stock in the historical and HEMA circles here.
Yes and yes, but we should probably not shit up the JSA thread with any more HEMA shop talk.
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So, are there any left handers here or does anyone know any left handers who practice kenjutsu/kendo? Do they use their dominant hand or just hold the sword in the standard right handed way?
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>>62057
I don't personally know any who do JSA, knew one who did saber fencing.
In most, if not all, JSA they'd have to hold it the standard way, right hand near the tsuba. I don't think there is any rule against it, or anything, it's just not something that's done.
Some sensei say that it's easier for left handed people to strike correctly, because in kendo your left hand should be more 'dominant', it should give power to your strikes, while the right guides the shinai, if you do one handed strikes it should be with the left hand. I imagine left handed people would disagree with this and say that it's just as, if not more, difficult for them.
I think it's probably the same, kendo is difficult for everyone.
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>>62057
There are a handful of kenjutsu schools that sometimes reverse the standard hand grip, but it is very, very unusual, and they still do most of their techniques with the hands in the normal position. I have a hard time imagining most styles allowing a left handed person to change things up.
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>>61851
>Some shit that only gets taught at high ranks and really only for demonstration purposes or some shit.
There are no banned moves, there are techniques that only higher level practitioners can successfully execute, however, because they've been simply practicing them longer.

>Going off by friends who do kendo and just general observation of the scene. It really forces you to stick with clubs for a long time so you wont get anywhere near a decent rank unless youve been with the club for 10-20 years (but this is a problem that plagues a lot of eastern martial arts).
I highly doubt you actually have a friend who does Kendo or even bothered to do research on it, because you're missing some pretty basic understanding. All ranks in Kendo are issued by the region's federation, which is a member of the International Kendo Federation. Individual dojos do not issue ranks. Your rank sticks with you when you move to different clubs or dojos.
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So how big of a deal is height in kendo? I assume reach would be a big deal but Kendo has a more abstract ruleset so I'm wondering if that complicates things beyond who can get the first hit. Any other physical attributes that provide a noticeable advantage?
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>>62057
It's almost always done in the right hand because koryu is steeped in tradition and period etiquette required samurai to be right-handed even if they were naturally left-hand dominant. The whole system of walking on the left side of the road with the swords on your left hip to keep your scabbards from clacking if you passed another samurai or keeping your sword on the floor to your right side to demonstrate non-threatening intent would be undermined by left-handedness. Even though that's not such a big issue in modern Japan, nobody wants to inconvenience sensei by making them mirror stuff in their heads before they can properly teach.
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>>62224
>nobody wants to inconvenience sensei by making them mirror stuff in their heads before they can properly teach.
It's also that you're supposed to be able to teach the style. You're supposed to blend with the style, it's not to the style to adapt to you. That's how the japanese system works. You may not like it but well...
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I thought kendo was cool but they do this autistic tip touching thing
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>>62223
No much advantage. There is an advantage with reach and distance, but taller people have more difficulty hitting kote and dou on shorter people because they're simply lower and possible out of their natural reach.

Other than that, that's all that height gives you. That knowledge is used against taller kendoka because the shorter people will fight closer (thus making strikes made by the taller kendoka too close/not strike with the monouchi). In addition, since taller Kendoka tend to strike men on shorter people, the shorter Kendoka can entice that attack and perform oji-waza on them.

>>62272
What are you referring to?
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Hey, updating here. I'm this >>61584 anon and went to sit in on a class. Overall it looks really cool, but I was wondering if there were any sort of red flags I should be looking for in regards to an American TSKSR dojo. The biggest thing that struck me as odd was just how much the instructor went on about how they make everything as close as it can be to what it is in Japan from culture, trying to speak more in the language, etc. to the point that it almost came off as insecure. And I'm unsure as to whether his claim of being essentially the only "mainline" school of it in the US that's directly authorized to teach. He had shown some videos to the class of Otake doing bo staff demonstrations that he apparently had taken, at during one of them he was in it, so I don't think his credentials are really in question. Plus he seemed pretty knowledgeable when I watched him coach the students, not that I would really be able to tell the difference.
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>>62501
So, this kind of thing varies. Some koryu are very emphatic that certain elements of Japanese culture are essential to the learning experience. This can mean bowing to a kamidana, memorizing mantras, etc. If your teacher is Japanese learning the language is also a smart move, and even if they aren't all the historical paperwork is going to be in Japanese.
On the other hand there are many groups, mostly fake koryu, that essentially larp with very little actual understanding of Japanese culture, particularly koryu. The question is how such things fit into the learning experience.

As to the mainline question, you should know that KSR under Otake recently underwent something of a schism. Preferably you should get details from someone in the school, but if you go searching around you can get a pretty good idea about the split.
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>>62522
After doing a bit more digging I think this school follows Nobutushi, as some anons had pointed out earlier. From my looking around there's two mainline websites both claiming to be official, with one mentioning both brothers and one making 0 mention of Nobutoshi, with only the former listing this dojo. I've still really yet to find out what happened to cause this schism so I may just directly ask the sensei at the school. This entire split thing seems very strange from the outside perspective, though as anons had told me earlier it won't effect the quality of teaching or anything so I suppose it's not really an issue unless I had to move to a state where there was only another branch's dojo kek.
Also learning Japanese, as you said, is probably a good idea. I think /jp/ has a general on that so I could always start there.
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Sucks that I live in bumbfuck western PA where there’s zero kendo presence at all. I’ve always been interested but I can’t do any meaningful study
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>>62557
Checked the AUSKF website, and they have two dojos listed in western PA, one in Pittsburg, one in Bethany. They both seem to be college clubs, by the looks of it.
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>>62555
I certainly can't speak to the internal politics, but you should know that the younger son: Shigetoshi, has the backing of the current soke: the hereditary headmaster. In the eyes of many this automatically makes him in the right.

As to why these things happen: Koryu, and other traditional Japanese arts like schools of flower arranging, are seen as a type of intellectual quasi-property. This has helped in the past to preserve these systems but it also can create issues like this when it's time for the next generation to take over.
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>>62501
>The biggest thing that struck me as odd was just how much the instructor went on about how they make everything as close as it can be to what it is in Japan from culture, trying to speak more in the language, etc.
So of course, it's hard to know with how much degree this is done in your example, but in my experience, both with modern and old budo, this isn't necessarily a red flag. Doing the initial salute to the kamisa with japanese phrasing, reciting a dojokun in japanese and mostly, using japanese phrasing (yukkuri, yame, dame, hajime) to give "rhythm" to a class is quite common. Using japanese names to describe everything in the system (postures, strikes, footwork, special stuff like the spinnig movement yamameguri in TSKSR) is also the standard as it helps especially when you're practicing with people you've never met or of other countries, japanese become the lingua france and though it can be demanding at first, especially if you aren't accustomed to the soundings, it does pay off. This especially because in koryu, many terms have important significations and hidden meanings that can help you in how to use said techniques. Of course "staff smashing the shin" is quite literal, but when you get to "pure-eye stance" or "yin stance" you better know to pay attention to the phrasing. Translation would be your enemy here.

Also, as an aside, there's a couple official teachers of TSKSR in Japan, most notably of course Phil Relnick in Seattle who is an historical Otake student after Draeger. It doesn't mean yours isn't worthy of course and this isn't even talking if you want to learn the techniques or fully invest into the ryuha and its politics. A guy with menkyo should be largely technical enough to teach you plenty of stuff.
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I just recently came across Iaido. It looks pretty cool even though Im pretty sure most people would just consider it larping if they saw me doing it. I think if were Japanese living in Japan I would seriously consider doing it. But I imagine most places in America that practice in America are just terrible. I wonder if anyone knows if its something you can do completely on your own, or if you really need someone to teach you. Doing it on my own is also why it appeals to me more than kendo. I also dont really feel like fighting.
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>>63648
Doing it completely on your own is a mistake. Iaido is about precision and since its done solo you can't tell what the movements represent unless they're explained to you.The Japanese sword arts are all about hands on instruction within a lineage, so teaching yourself would be far closer to larping.

Of course the level in Japan is in general much higher. But in terms of seitei iaido, or standardized iaido, you have plenty of people outside Japan with 7th dan; the second highest rank. In addition people travel to and from Japan these days. You can get instruction from top level people if you put in the time and energy.

And yes, some people will accuse you of larping, especially if your only doing iaido, I just don't see why you should care.
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>>63648
There should be plenty adequate iaido teachers in the us; maybe look at kendo dojo as well because they might be affiliated here.
I'll second and say that iaido is absolutely not something you can do on your own properly, you might even injure yourself in the process.

Do not assume that this is some sort of rare art or whatever, it's actually one of the most widespread sort of japanese swordsmanship.
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>>63648
>But I imagine most places in America that practice in America are just terrible
You're thinking of HEMA. Iaido in the west and America is actually competent and growing. As >>63654 and >>63662 stated, Iaido is paired with Kendo for organization/legitimacy and follows the same set of standardization that keep instruction and practicing set to a high standard. I would not recommend practicing Iaido by yourself since, like every skill, it is very easy to be misguided by your own interpretation of something without a means to self-correct (which comes from years of practice).

As for the LARPing. Every single martial art is some form of LARP. If you enjoy what you are doing, it doesn't matter.
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>>63654
>especially if your only doing iaido
What should you do in addition to iaido?
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>>63760
Iaido was developped in the modern era to be paired-up with kendo, but even back in the edo period, the schools that specialized in iaido usually had some kenjutsu. When it's a "side-thing", the main focus is usually kenjutsu or jujutsu.

So kendo/kenjutsu mostly, but jujutsu isn't remotely a bad idea to pair iaido with.

Regardless, iaido really is sword practice for our day and age, which is devoid of practical sword applications in the first place. It's more than enough by itself, but many people might be bored without at least paired exercises, which typically comes late in koryu iai, when they have them.
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>>63760
Depends what you want.
>>63767 goes over things pretty well. Modern iaido as a stand alone art is pretty much an entirely modern phenomena. Most koryu had iai or batto along with kenjutsu. Additionally most people who talk about koryu iai are talking about MJER or MSR, but that is mostly a quirk of history, those arts are very well connected with kendo federation iaido. Its also interesting that their curriculum was severely cut back during modernization. MJER originally had a large kenjutsu and armed grappling portion. In its modern form it has been taught along side gekiken or kendo from the get go. In truth most kenjutsu schools had at least a small set of iai kata, some alot more.

But if like you said your not interested in the fighting or sparring there is nothing wrong with doing iaido as a solo art.
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>>63785
I dont think I want to do anything else.
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>>63785
>Additionally most people who talk about koryu iai are talking about MJER or MSR, but that is mostly a quirk of history, those arts are very well connected with kendo federation iaido
Well it's also because the guy who basically made modern iaido, Nakayama Hakudo, was a very advanced MJER practitioner (wasn't he even soke of one of the gazillion branch of the style?), and he also was one of the founder of kendo to boot.
Koryu iai is still diverse depending on where you are. Hoki-ryu, Mugai-ryu, Tamiya-ryu, Tatsumi-ryu aren't that obscure, but it's true that MSR and MJER are the majority.

>>63791
Then don't bother, if you're committed you'll have your plate full with iaido already. Do what is available and that you can afford for a start;
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>>63919
Yeah, I think I will stick with Iaido then but who knows when Ill start. It seems most gyms are pretty far away from where I live.
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>>63919
Hakudo studied MJER, or at least a branch of it. He apparently made certain reforms to it which might make his MSR a different school depending on who you ask.

I wouldn't say the schools you named are obscure, but outside of Japan they are definitely somewhat rare.
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Guys I practice both JSA and HEMA but the latter has its own thread. Anyway, what do you guys think about Iaido? Is it worth picking up?
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>>63648
i've thought about doing iaido but the autist in me feels like doing it without kenjutsu or kendo makes me a massive larper.
i have potential plans to move out and move to a city so these are all just pipe dreams unless my interviews turn out well

>>63737
>Iaido in the west and America is actually competent and growing
does it depend where you live?
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>>56105
sword fart online
this made me laugh more than it should have
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>>65903
The warmup in most Japanese kendo schools consists of 500 vertical slashes with the bokken or shinai stomping backward and forward one step. This is before two to three hours of practice most of which is done sparring at full force in armor. Many Japanese buildings, even gyms, do not have central heating or cooling and only wall outlet fans or open doors provide some relief in the summer. Many students use the brief breaks in training to smoke cigarettes and then put their helmets back on. The hakama is a pleated skirt that is part of the ensemble which due to surface area traps the residual scent of most braps.

Imagine the smell hehe
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>>65971
Kendo is unironically pretty fucking smelly, similar to hockey, but not as bad.
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>>65974
what about it? is it due to just sweating a lot in the equipment?

unrelated side question, is it true that being a vegetarian would make your BO and sweat weaker?
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>>65993
>what about it? is it due to just sweating a lot in the equipment?
Yeah, basically that. You can't really safely and easily wash most kendo gear, not even just the protective equipment, even some of the more traditional clothes you can't.
Airing your gear out is fine for the most part, but most people don't have several sets of gear, so during a training camp, or a competition and grading lasting several days they'll have to wear their soggy, sweaty gear. The gloves are the worst offenders in this, mine acquired a pretty strong 'aroma' after a competition. It's not the worst, I've definitely smelled far worse things during gym classes, but it's there.

>unrelated side question, is it true that being a vegetarian would make your BO and sweat weaker?
No clue, I eat little meat, mostly carbs and lean meats. I sweat a lot, way more than anyone I train with, but I've been told that despite this I don't smell bad after training.
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>>65802
What sort of JSA?
If it's kendo, yeah iaido was made to complement it historically so...
If you're doing a style that doesn't have iaido / battojutsu, etc. in its curriculum, it's best to consider how the moves will contradict the original style.
Nonetheless, there's hardly a japanese martial art that is more original and more, well japanese, than iaido. It's worth picking up, at least to train something when you are alone, which is one of the reason it was developped in the first place.
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>>66010
>No clue, I eat little meat, mostly carbs and lean meats. I sweat a lot, way more than anyone I train with, but I've been told that despite this I don't smell bad after training.
kinda cringe to admit but the first source i've heard the claim was from some video about shinobi that strictly avoided meat and dairy to avoid attracting attention with an odor. never looked into it further than that
i didn't think much of it at the time, but then the whole /fit/ meme about eating onions started which led to more discussion about odor and diet
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>>53697
A good website for chinese manuals, including jian manuals. Unfortunately most of the authors state that swordfighting has been mostly forgotten so you have to work with the little left and understood
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/
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>>66010
Are you Asian? It sounds like something a weeb would make up but apparently in the overwhelming majority of East Asians there's a genetic trait that controls for dry ear wax and also greatly reduces the pungency of body odor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABCC11

It can happen in non-Asians as well it's just way less common. I wonder if this is the reason japs can tolerate the smellier indoor sports like Judo and Kendo in their non air conditioned gyms. It's genuinely not as bad as it would be in the west.
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>>66064
not that anon, but i am asian and i think my earwax is wet. i'm self consious of my underarm odor as well. guess i'm the 5%
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>>56472
>>56496
>>56520
To come back on this, I've incidentally found this video of Nitta Suzuo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdmjXuRHk38&t=58s

She was a teenager during the war iirc, she had to escape the two tokyo fire bombings. She would have been in her late 60s in the video.
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I know i can google this, but i like to get real people input.
Anyone encountered/used a good online practice/training plan for beginner kendo/japanese swordmanship. Be it on youtube or something else.
Would really like to just practice the forms and techniques myself in my own time.
i am 100% beginner, just always liked swords (and love japan) and wanted another way to stay active at home
So when i came across a training bokken for cheap locally i decided to grab it and finally get started.
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>>70472
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn8aWs7zTi_U4CzVMurJDOvo8P0dgnaux
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmdvM8fwuCxgqBqVsyw5C7etb-TQBPwcD
These two seem really good. Just follow them real close, record yourself, compare your movements to theirs. Also, join a dojo as soon as possible. No amount of videos, zoom lessons and online courses can compare to actual in-person training.
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>>70486
These seem like great starting points, thank you.
Perhaps one day i will join a dojo. I know for correcting form and such it really cant be beat.
For now its gonna be a couple small sessions a week to keep active (alongside some light home gym stuff i already do). Plus i live in the lockdown capital of the world (literally) so couldn't really do a class anytime soon if i wanted to.
Thank you for the advice of the filming myself to compare, that is definitely the best way to make my solo training as effective as i can.
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>>70500
Try to find something like a whole day or two-days stage. It's not classes but it's a springboard.
Starting by yourself is complicated, then again, that depends on what your goal is. If it's just to swing a sword on your own, that might be enough. Think of your safety, be careful when you train, good luck!
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Looking for a new do, what's the verdict on non-black do-dais?
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>>73415
I personally prefer black ones, but some Sensei seem OK with having students using non-black dōdai.

I'm from South America, and here the only people I have seen using them are high-ranked local Sensei during international events/seminars.

I have been in the United States too, and they are also popular over there; even more than in Japan.
>>
The base of my thumb on the back side of my hand is bruised as shit after a Kenjutsu class. Sensei says that it's normal, the injury is from practicing drawing the katana.

Are there any gloves that would protect my hand? Most gloves are only padded on the palm side, and even tactical gloves don't usually pad the back of the base of the thumb.
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>>75276
I don't think you need padded gloves, simple wool or cotton gloves should suffice.
http://takadadojo.blogspot.com/2009/07/gloves-during-training.html?m=1
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>>47015
My knees are bending on their own
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what are some good videos/websites you guys would recommend for an absolute beginner to learn Kenjutsu
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>>77627
book reccs too
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>>77627
>>77706
You don't learn motor skills from scratch from books and videos, not japanese fencing in particular as its not how the japanese pedagogy is developped. Look for any iai, kendo dojo near you is the only valid answer you'll get, look for stages if need be.
I know this is frustrating and not really answering your question but the whole validity of kenjutsu and japanese fencing in general is based upon a master/student relation.

(Look maybe Hiro Imafuji...?)
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>>66068
>posted this 110 days ago
>this thread is still up and this post is still alive
holy fuck this board is a different brand of slow. have a thousand year bump you guys

>>77713
i want to join a dojo but the current state of affairs in the world makes it hard to attend anything in person
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>>78900
>i want to join a dojo but the current state of affairs in the world makes it hard to attend anything in person
One question you should ask yourself is, what do you want out of kenjutsu or whatever sword thing you'll end up doing? If you're serious, think long term, look for dojo you can realistically join, contact them, ask them what to do in the meantime. I agree that right now, this is not the best of time for starting anything...
If you just want to mess around while knowing a bit about what you're doing, not injuring yourself stupidly, well...
Sword fighting is a two-men's activity anyway, you won't go far without partners.
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>>77706
I found this one enjoyable as a layman. It's not kenjutsu but whatever, it's japanese sword stuff. I can relate as someone who wants to train but circumstances prevent it. In my case my work schedule.
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>>78925
>what do you want out of kenjutsu or whatever sword thing you'll end up doing?
honestly? i'm looking for a physical hobby that's more engaging than just lifting or exercising alone. i spend most of my day sitting on my ass at an office desk, and i finally make enough money to explore hobbies that aren't just playing the same vidya over and over again
the weeb sword shit is a plus
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>>78944
First, as always, look into what exists in your zip code within the distance that you can and are willing to travel. Not much point asking if musho-shinden-eishin-ryu is better than shinto-muso-ryu if you live in suburban Arkansas and the university kendo club is all that's there.

Secondly, if you do have options, do you want to replace lifting with JSA or add it on? The volume of your program would determine if something as aerobic and dynamic as kendo would interfere with your goals versus something more patient and relaxed like seitei iaido/jodo.
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>>78969
there's a decent amount of kendo clubs around my city but i can't find any info online about them besides the fact that they do kendo
some of them are purely kendo, but a lot of them are also combined with other martial arts schools. lots of jiujitsu

>Secondly, if you do have options, do you want to replace lifting with JSA or add it on?
i don't currently lift. i'm very sedentary compared to when i was in college and i'm mostly trying to find an enjoyable physical hobby so i don't sit on my ass at a desk all day
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>>78994
OK, so are they closed down due to social distancing or something? Can't really do kendo well and abide by those restrictions unless it's just 10 people standing very far apart doing guided solo drills.
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>>79020
>so are they closed down
seems like it. a lot of places threw away their opening plans because of the new variant as well

my plan was to go before or after work since it's pretty close to my work office, assuming the two would open up around the same time.
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>>46968
>kiri otoshi is the defining technique of ono ha itto ryu and ittosai's most celebrated creation
>kiri otoshi is found and many other ryus, namely all the kashima offspring: shinto ryu, jikishinkage, shinryu, yagyu shinkage, yagyu shingan...
>none of them have itto ryu in their lineage.
????
how?
I don't want to be ironic, it is a real question.
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>>79716
Simply parallel evolution? A following blow robbing the center line isn't particularly mind-breaking to think about considering how pretty much all japanese fencing styles have a centered vertical strike as their basic sword blow.
It's not like it's the only technique that exists in different lineages, but it's probably the most proeminent sure (help that the Itto-ryu and Kashima lineages aren't exactly small things).
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>>79716
There are several possibilities, one Itto ryu uses the cut in a very specific way, pretty much structuring their over all strategy around it. Other arts might have a downward cut, they might even use a similar displacement technique sometimes, but it isn't the focus of their style. On top of the technique Itto ryu has training methods to enhance it, combat strategies that maximize its usefulness, and a very specific way of cutting which they consider the optimal way to apply the technique.

Second, It could be the technique was so successful that other styles retroactively adapted it. Even though not all those styles have itto ryu in their lineage, Itto ryu spread everywhere and were very involved in competitive matches with Shinai, so their basic techniques were pretty widely known.
>>
the future is now
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>>80844
It seems a little slow.
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>>80844
Considering how the teacher taking the role of uke is one of the central tenet of japanese traditional martial arts... not really. The idea that JMA actively wants to modernize is a joke in itself as well. Otherwise, kendo wouldn't train with bamboo sticks.
This is just plain useless, what MA are about is person to person teaching and connection, not a darn robot. Where is the seme, the metsuke, feeling of in'yo, etc. Just a waste of time and metal.
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>>80881
Oh fucking well. Japan is dying and this is one possible solution.
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>>80938
Better to die then, what is this a solution to exactly?
Some koryu have survived with only a handful of member, some hombu dojo wouldn't be big enough for ten people. Koryu isn't practical, it's a living practice that you can't learn without human experience.
What is the use of this exactly?

It's primarily doing kendo move though, And I don't really see kendo being weak or anything.

This is just a pathetic gimmicky shit. If that's the solution, JMA should die.
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>>80881
Its just another means of solo practice, calm down you autistic boomer.
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>>80952
OK enjoy being heemed by HEMA.
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>>80962
Don't know what you're referring to. Kendo is more widely practiced worldwide than HEMA.





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