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MS Thot edition

>What is HEMA?
HEMA stands for Historical European Martial Arts, sometimes also called Historical Fencing.
It's reconstructing how to fight with swords, daggers, polearms and other weapons based on old European fighting treatises

>What does it look like?
Inside the World of Longsword Fighting - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zueF4Mu2uM
Back to the source - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DBmNVHTmNs
Martin Fabian Sparring - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8QlbKfX84k

>Where can I find these treatises?
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Main_Page
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Category:Weapons

>Where can I find HEMA clubs near me?
https://www.hemaalliance.com/club-finders
https://hroarr.com/train/clubs-gear/club-finder/
https://ifhema.com/ifhema-members/

last thread >>31581
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>>39923
First for sword&buckler being the best weapon(s) with the worst fencers
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>>39943
Never have I heard it so properly summarized
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I've got a non heat-treated blade blank from Albion from one of their moat sales.

It's a sidesword style blade, similar to the one used in their Machiavelli. pic related I was going to send it out to a blacksmith to get it finished, but never got around to it and it's been sitting in my room for years. I was thinking about finally sending it out to a bladesmith to finish, but I'm not sure what I want to turn it into.

Any suggestions for what style of sword I should get it made into? Transitional sidesword with simple/partially-developed hilt? Fully complex hilt or basket? Something else entirely?
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>>39963
If you google Type XIX sword you'll find plenty of examples. That blade type is associated with a fuckload of hilts
My personal favourite remains this
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>>39943
Blame retards for taking sources at face value and assuming that I.33 is the best sword and buckler manual because it's the most exhaustive, along with neglecting to do arming sword alone first because no "proper" source for it exists

People that mostly train sword and buckler don't want to pressure test and compete because all they do is hip hinge and rub swords without any protective gear, while people who compete in s&b are at best longsworders or sabreurs with a weird object in their left hand they don't know what to do with, and they don't actually study any of the decent sources like Manciolino or Lignitzer
>>
How is this considered an extreme sport?

Had a local HEMA gathering randomly appear on my lawn once and they were all fat or skinny autists, one guy was 30 and the rest looked like they were about 15. I imagine this is what DnD geeks do once they start making money and can afford buying metalware instead of trading cards.
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>>40219
Hiroshimoot is a retard for calling this board "extreme" sports, but I thought we got over that after the first few weeks
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>>40218
>I.33 is ... the most exhaustive
It's not though, and by a long shot.
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>>40221
I haven't read any bolognese sources because I study Lignitzer/Talhoffer/Kal, but the general perception of s&b so far has exclusively been that I.33 is THE sword and buckler source, not unlike the perception of Leckuchner for messer or Fiore for dagger
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>>40227
>but the general perception of s&b so far has exclusively been that I.33 is THE sword and buckler source

For what it's worth, that's because for the first 20-ish years of HEMA as we understand it being a "thing", I.33 was the only reasonably accessibly S&B source. It was *absolutely* the only accessible source for S&B in 1998 when I started looking at historical combat manuals to influence my stage fights.

If I make make a reference back to /tg/, I.33 holds that position for the same reason that D&D is still the most popular game, even though D&D is a pretty inflexible and actively trashy game system: it got there first and cemented itself in the minds of hobbyists. If there had been a few easily-accessible books about Marozzo's S&B back in the late 1990s, it could easily be that system which acts as the "default" S&B style. But there weren't, and so every other fechtbuch is going to face an uphill battle for at *least* another generation.
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>>40219
>How is this considered an extreme sport?
leave the anglosphere and you'll see
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>>40227
If you take just the buckler section of any individual Bolognese source that has them, you already have far more material than I.33.
But of course, there's three Bolognese sources that use them, and each of them has a lot more other material as well that complements the study of S&B fencing, plus dall'Agocchie and Viggiani who don't cover bucklers but are still helpful, PLUS non-Bolognese, but adjacent sources that cover the buckler (such as di Grassi and Lovino).
If you want to just go by the sheer quantity of material, I.33 and LTK are both dwarfed by the Italians. Quality-wise, they're arguably better too, I much prefer their methods of explaining shit.

>>40233
It's weird how rusted in place I.33 is. Just before /xs/ came along, someone on /k/ asked about sources for sword and shield. That tripfag KM, whom normally I'd consider knowledgeable, said that there are no sword and (medium-large) shield sources and recommended I.33. When he was called out he somehow claimed that he simultaneously forgot about all the other sources, that a sidesword is somehow totally different to an arming sword and a rotella is nothing like a heater shield
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>>40245
To be fair sidesword is significantly different to an arming sword because they tend to have more complex hilts. The whole reason arming swords were lilely kept so close to the buckler in i.33 is because they dont protect the hand well. Even with other weapons we can see that as hand guards become more complex they start being held in front of the body rather than kept away from the opponent. Compare something like medieval messer to 19th century saber.
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>>40218
>>40227
I.33 is mostly popular because it's old. It's the oldest source on fencing we have, the only one that can really be considered properly medieval, so medievaboos go ape for it. That's seriously the entire explanation. All longsword manuals are early Renaissance at best, Bolognese is *obviously* Renaissance, if you want to be a sword and board kniggit with a sugarloafhelm and tabard I.33 is the only thing that even gets close.

>>40219
>>40220
Honestly super fucking bizarre to me that they shut down /asp/ instead of just relocating the mandrama.
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>>40291
Fiore is 100% medieval, unless you shift the goalposts to an absolutely fucking stupid degree.
As for later styles, they clearly have origins in earlier times and work just fine with said earlier weapons. This goes for both early KDF (which I honestly don't consider renaissance) and Bolognese.

>Honestly super fucking bizarre to me that they shut down /asp/ instead of just relocating the mandrama.
The only reason that I found remotely convincing is that they feared /asp/ would be filled with mandrama if they kept the name, so rather than constantly moderating a such a minor board they made a new one. Something about retards considering /asp/ "their territory" or someshit.
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>>40289
look at all that amazing hand protection
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>>40295
My hands are so protected, fuck me
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>>40296
I'M GONNA PROOTECT!
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>>40295
>>40296
>>40297
Ok autismo now look at how actual renaissance sideswords were constructed instead of how they were drawn
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How come everyone who does HEMA is fat?
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>>40306
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>>40306
>>40321
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>>40318
America is not the world bro
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>>40323
>half his cherry picks still have better hand protection than a typical arming sword
lol, meanwhile, heres what most of what youll fond in antique collections look like
>>
>>40306
>>40321
>>40323
In all seriousness though:
There is plenty of evidence cross-hilted, and otherwise simple-hilted swords were still in use in the 16th century in Italy. They were still being made, and of course plenty of older swords remained in circulation too.
Marozzo depicts a large variety of hilts. It's very clear in his specific case that this isn't a stylistic choice, those were just the weapons they used.
As for swords with more hand protection, anyone who actually does sidesword knows that even more protective hilt types don't protect you against active hand sniping, you need to actively protect yourself from them. This is backed up by the sources themselves, where attacks to the sword hand are extremely common. Such hilts will do something protect you from incidental hand hits, and help facilitate putting the index finger over the guard, but not much more.
As for covering your sword hand with the buckler, there's plenty of nuance to this subject. The Bolognese do protect the sword hand with the buckler in certain situations, but they don't do it with the autistic obsession that I.33 fags do. Frankly, no source does, and you can bet your ass that I.33 would be the same if it were more complete and more legible.

>>40332
That's a Munich town guard sword, from 17th century Germany.
>>
>>39963
>>
>>40293
>Fiore is 100% medieval, unless you shift the goalposts to an absolutely fucking stupid degree.
>dating the Renaissance from Petrarch is goalpost shifting
lad
>>
>>39943

If I was a sabre-monkey looking into sword and buckler, which treatise should I focus on to try and learn it?

Be advised as a bong I barely understand english, let alone a foreign language.

I've tried reading Mazorro, but I haven't understood the point of much other than the guards.
>>
>>40289
Please shut the fuck up

Arming swords, messers, and arguably sideswords are interchangeable with one another, in spite of whatever some i.33 sword rubbing retard has told you, people were perfectly capable of fencing with longswords, messers, and of course arming swords that "don't protect the hand well" with nothing more than a cruciform hilt.
Bucklers exist to be actively used to cover and engage with your opponent's weapons independently from the sword, which makes leg attacks for example much safer and easier to land. Gluing your hands together robs of you this completely.
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>>40396
>people were perfectly capable of fencing with longswords, messers, and of course arming swords that "don't protect the hand well" with nothing more than a cruciform hilt.
No shit you illiterate retard I didnt imply otherwise. What I said was that people tended not to hold their weapon straight out in front of them until more complex hand guards became common. When held in front, a buckler was often kept close to the hand to avoid getting cut. I dont understand why you fags are so aggressively assblasted by these completely benign and truthful observations and throwing out accusations of being a roland-esque sword rubber for acknowledging them.
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>>40393
The Lignitzer translation is good I think (I'm german-speaking, so I don't need a translation for him), but you need KdF/Liechtenauer knowledge:
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Andre_Lignitzer

Otherwise the bolognese tradition is really good (translations are good too afaik) but you need to learn the italian terms for different actions:
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Achille_Marozzo
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Antonio_Manciolino

Another italian with an (in my opinion) cool and relatively easy book:
https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Giacomo_di_Grassi
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>>40393
>I've tried reading Mazorro, but I haven't understood the point of much other than the guards.
Oh wait, how did I miss this...
You could try reading Manciolino, from what I've heard he's easier to read than Marozzo.
Otherwise just go with Di Grassi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGr_4MfTZ2Q
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>>40407
>The whole reason arming swords were lilely kept so close to the buckler in i.33 is because they dont protect the hand well.
Why are you contradicting what you've said here?
The reason for the variable positions of the buckler in i.33 is because it's used a lot more actively in bindwork, otherwise the buckler is something that can cover your entire body. Implying it's intended for hand protection specifically in the context of i.33 makes you sound like a sword rubber for being hyperfixated on stylised illustrations and pulling shit out your ass to make your interpretations seem less shaky, much like Roladnd's obsession with hip hinging or the "sturzhau" which isn't a term used in i.33 at all.
On the topic of weapons not being held in front of the body due to lack of hand protection, why are you conveniently forgetting about langort/sprechfenster being called the noblest and best of all guards in kdf, or posta longa in armizare using deception more than any other guard? Threatening with the point and walking a thrust into your opponent is the simplest and arguably one of the best direct attacks you can use.
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>>40407
>No shit you illiterate retard I didnt imply otherwise. What I said was that people tended not to hold their weapon straight out in front of them until more complex hand guards became common
That's not true. Stop getting your "facts" from youtube channels.
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>>40535
Post a source that's legitimate HEMA and not fake It*lian shit.
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>>40565
>legitimate HEMA
Like what, George Silver?
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>>40565
Here you go, in spite of your silverite goalpost moving
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>>40576
Post a source that's legitimate HEMA, and not some fake G*erman shit.
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>>40535
>longsword is fought from long point
Retard
>>40576
Thats not me.
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>>40528
>Why are you contradicting what you've said here?
Im not contradicting anything. You just cant read.
langort/sprechfenster being called the noblest and best of all guards in kdf, or posta longa in armizare
Because those two positions are invitations to attack on part of ghe person holding them. Go watch literally any longsword tournament and I gurantee 99% of excha ges are not fought from long point for good reason
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>>40565
>>40577
wtf is "legitimate HEMA"?
or rather which sources do you categorize as "legitimate"?
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>>40590
>Having your sword pointed at someone's face with a thrust being literally a couple of advancing steps away from landing is an invitation for your opponent to attack
Damn you sound smart
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>>40613
You may not like it, but this is what peak legitimate hema looks like.
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>>40639
youre at your weakest at full extension and presenting your weak to your opponent. Its an invitation to try to set your point offline with a thrust with opposition or to batter your weak.

Surely you could use it to provoke such a thing and then say, disengage under his blade to find opposition on the other side of his sword and counter thrust, but overall, yeah, its a structually weak place to be and thus an invitation.
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>>40696
meh, english fencing was never good
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>>40613
Whatever HEMA sources support my position are legitimate HEMA. Others are not.
>>
I sure hope you guys are dussacking regularly
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>>40813
based
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>>40867
>tfw when no dussack bros at my club
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>>40590
With gear and a mask on maybe. Its an invitation to bind certainly but it’s called Sprechtfenster because of its passifying effect on your opponent.

Any negative points aren’t defensive they’renthe limitations you also have offensively. Make sure you’re crossguard is parrallel to the ground.
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>>41146
Sad, maybe you can get some of your club mates to try it?
2 Dussacks aren't that expensive and they're great for warm up or just fucking around with minimal gear
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>>40486
>>40488

Thank you,

Manciolino's is far more understandable, have been practicing on my own with a roundshield instead of a buckler.

Haven't decided whether or not I'll cut it down into a buckler or if I want to build one and give it a custom paint job.
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>>41341
>a roundshield instead of a buckler.
Rotella is its own whole thing and there's at least one Bolognese treatise that discusses it.
>>
Is there anything known to HEMA that involves drawing a sword and returning it into the scabbard like in Japanese battoujutsu/iaido? I'm a sucker for that shit in Nip swordsmanship and was curious if anybody thought to do it in ye olde Evoropa.
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>>41359
No
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>>41347
It's a viking/dane roundshield, not a rotella.
Part of some old reenacting gear I never used.

I'm basically using it as an XL buckler to drill the motions.

Even for a shield though it's heavy as shite, made it using too thick plywood with a very thick ash handle.
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>>41347
Three: Marozzo, Manciolino, Anonimo.
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>>41359
Sort of. 'Turn sword' or something like that is recorded in the oldest British Cavalry orders I remember reading once and I think Matt 'Fuck Whites' Easton has made a video about it in ancient times.
>Turn Sword
>Draw
>Charge!
Along those lines.

Implying that you take the grip and turn your wrist in order to draw your sword straight into a cut in the Iaido fashion. Many scabbard frogs and the metal sabre sheathes that hang from chain allow you to do this with ease again backing up the idea that it was at least known and done. I think it's next impossible that no one ever thought of this in Europe as it is so practical.

The HEMA sources don't discuss this as they only really discuss actions in a duel already under way. So much so that internet experts will still go on about how Longswords of the standard HEMA length were never worn or used in battle but simply brought to duels or kept on horses even though there's lots of evidence to the contrary.
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>>41359
if you look at angelo's drills, it's pretty clear he's thinking of the hanging guard as being the first position for the sword out of the scabbard, so it's sorta like iaido but not really.
>>
So does anyone know how people used to practice back in the day? Can be from any source I'm just interested in how it compares to what we do now.
Did they do free sparring? Did they have protection similar to ours or was it truly only skill that prevented significant Injuries?
Or where they a bunch of loars that needed to look cool in the books.
>>
Does anyone think that fighting styles in hema tournaments will eventually shift from trying to swing the car leaf spring as hard as you can to being more technical and intricate?
Seems like every fight follows the same pattern, hop around for a while, jump in randomly, swing wildly, jump out blindly.
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>>41926
>Did they have protection similar to ours or was it truly only skill that prevented significant Injuries?
From what I know the only protection they used during Renaissance times were thick clothes and sometimes metal gauntlets, otherwise they either had to go slow and/or be very controlled. Accidents still happened, especially in Fechtschulen (worst things I read about were crushed eyes and a few deaths especially with rapiers and staffs)
The further you go in time the more protective gear they use, like thick elbow-long gloves for Dussack in Fechtschulen to the point where the typical gear for modern fencing was developed.
Afaik masks were frowned upon in the beginning as a sign of "I don't trust my opponents skill NOT to hit me in the face"

Maybe an interesting read:
https://hroarr.com/article/art-of-control-fechtschule-manifesto-part-1/
https://hroarr.com/article/the-art-of-control-fechtschule-manifesto-2/
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>>41928
I sure hope so, but I think we're technically still at a very low level, even the best fighters of the world.
There are nice technical exchanges every now and then, but mostly it's
>hop around for a while, jump in randomly, swing wildly, jump out blindly.
as you said.
I guess there's a lot of "metagame" in this too, so the go-to technique(s) will change over time again and again, like suicide fleching, Twer-spamming or gayszeln (or however it's written)
But as long as there aren't full-time HEMA athletes who train a few hours a day every day we won't see the highest technical play possible (afaik fencing masters trained 3-5 hours a day 6-7 days a week back in renaissance and baroque times)
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>>41928
Some guys at the highest current level like Arto Fama are very aesthetically pleasing even in conpetition, but they're few and far between.
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>>41928

Honestly, I think it depends on tournaments changing their ruleset such that fighters must focus on being hit as little as possible.

People are always going to be meta, the only way to force technical fencing is to make brute-force an unviable strategy for winning.
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>>41928
Absolutely not and i’m confident HEMA. as a competitive martial art peaked with Millenials.
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>>42068
>HEMA. as a competitive martial art peaked with Millenials
Correct. It's all going to be sportified and go downhill from here. The thing that matters will be "winning tournaments", not " recreating a lost martial art", and those who try for the latter will be denigrated and driven from the hobby by the WAACfags.

HEMAs time has already passed.
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>>41939

Arto fama looks like shit. Maciej Talaga is where it's at.
>>
>>42068
>>42116

Out of curiosity, how would you lads feel about tournaments where the specifications of the weapons are fixed?


To give a really bad example because I can't think of anything else off my head, think about a "pattern sabre" tournament, where the fencing might be sportified but the blades used have to align with historical examples of a particular pattern saber.

You could apply this to say, "German Longsword" tournaments, where to compete you have to be using a sword comparable to a historical example of longswords from the HRE from a certain period (I don't know, pick a few hundred years).
>>
>>42116
There's pills for depression, you know, Anon.
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>>42116
>ahoohoohooo people who are obsessed with arguing hypotheticals and learning a plethora hyper-specific techniques will be rooted out by better fencers.
Competition and pressure-testing techniques and one's owns abilities is always good for the martial art. Do your part and promote a rule-set that encourages good swordplay. HEMA accomplished its goal of "recreating a lost martial art", now its time to move forward from that goal.
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>>42189
No, anything where the fencing is sportified is gross.
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>>42189
>"pattern sabre" tournament
problem is, there's heavy british or scandinavian saber, light italian saber, ""simple"" polish/hungarian saber, in theory even dussack or messer.
Same with longsword (different swords during the time of Fiore, Liechtenauer or Meyer),
rapier (thibault, swept hilt, pappenheimer, cup hilt)
or nearly any other weapon.
So a standard weapon for a category is kinda iffy
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>>42116
let's be real, recreating a lost martial art was a pretty naive and deluded goal, you can't recreate something as physical as a centuries old death martial art with just some obscure papers of some shady dudes
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>>42116
>>42289
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>>42259

It's iffy, but it would maintain the "H" in HEMA even if the fencing gets sportified or there's a "meta."

Sure, there's plenty of options of Sabre or rapier to choose from, and there's nothing stopping you from training with whatever you want.

But for competitions, sometimes less is more, and having some sort of standard for what you're allowed to use could push people to get better at fencing.
Rather than just minmaxing your kit to win.
>>
>>42116
>The thing that matters will be "winning tournaments", not " recreating a lost martial art", and those who try for the latter will be denigrated and driven from the hobby by the WAACfags.

you mean sword flopping ball walkers like roland warzecha will get sidelined by people who actually make interpretations of the sources that can survive pressure testing?
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>>42259

Then pick a particular pattern sabre then.
Have a 1803 flank pattern tournament, you want to compete, your sword has to fit the pattern.
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>>42313
>roland warzecha
Is that guy some kind of hema boogieman?
Isn't this """martial art""" more than sport/competition fags vs larpers?
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>>42502
>Is that guy some kind of hema boogieman?
Roland somehow fucked over sword & buckler fencing.
Originally an I.33 guy, these days he seems to just make shit up by staring at wonky manuscript art; the resulting conclusions he comes to are absurd. He also deals in absolutes hard: "ALWAYS do this, NEVER do that, etc."
Here's where we get to the crux of the matter. His absolutes are retarded, and often absolutely contradict actual sources. And yet, for some reason, this guy's fencing became the de-facto standard for S&B and sword and shield for years, don't ask me how.
It became self-perpetuating. If someone on the internet asked about sword and shield fencing, people would say there's no such source (there is, of course) and direct them to Roland, even on 4chan.
This resulted in the fuckhuge wealth of S&B material that exists being overlooked in favour of awful I.33 interpretations for years and years, something the HEMA scene is only slowly recovering from as people spread better sources.

tl;dr he's equally hated by sportsfags and bookfags, and only liked by Viking LARPers and clueless youtube watchers.
>>
This IS a sport.
It's the healthiest way to treat it, because you will never fight for your life with a weapon.
Dwelling too much into the "historical" and "realistic" is fine but in the end it wont do any good to you because your training is lacking the mental and physical conditioning of facing mortal combat (even Fiore wrote about avoiding it at all if possible)
But also im the first saying that longsword competitions are an eyesore to watch and a lot of hits are scored with the flat of the blade
Pick your poison but if you dont want to waste your time chose a discipline (weapon) with a fencing meaning.
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>>42304
the european circuit is trying to mantain standars for weapons
Only feders for two handers, only cup hilt for rapiers, only a certain kind of sabers and so on
And the meaning is always a combination of Safety-technical/sports-historical in this order
In my case for example i prefer using a saber with an italian hand guard that allows me to wear light gloves for better mobility of the handling instead of using a polish kind that would require me to wear lets say a red dragon glove, and so all the other fencers i met across europe
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>>42502
>Is that guy some kind of hema boogieman?
this guy pretty much nails it >>42593

to give an example of some of his madness: he literally did a video about how in order to understand I.33's footwork, you have to walk on the balls of your feet since medieval shoes didn't have heels. he then proceeded to prance about calling himself a real ball walker.
>>
>>42591
he's incredibly based and his stuff is the absolute best!
are you mad because he stole your girlfriend?
>>
>>42598
>you will never fight for your life with a weapon
Machetes, even relevant in Europe now
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Is this true? You're not supposed to put your thumb in the thumb ring?
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I want to get into HEMA and noticed there are several groups in my area. Do I just show up? Will they welcome newbies or what should I prepare to be better indoctrinated?
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>>42702
If they have contact information on their website, call/email/message them asking if they have a beginner class or if you can drop in on a practice.

simple as
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>>42702
Contact them first then show up to watch a practice or two. There's a lot of shit clubs out there so scope out the place before diving into practice.
>>
Do you have any words to share about Combatcon in Vegas? Also how do I find tournaments on the east coast. I saw in another thread East coast is great for HEMA tournaments, but it seems like that more true of the west coast. Yes I am an American.
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>>42758
I watched a video discussion of the ruleset for combatcon of a few years ago, i deeply hope they changed them.
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>>42769
>>42758
I just had a quick look through the rules, do most HEMA tournaments have rules this unnecessarily complicated and counterintuitive?
90 seconds also seems really short for a match, I guess they stop after every exchange during which they stop the timer as well?
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Why is HEMA all about tournaments and not more about sparring gatherings without rigid pools/brackets/fights?
Kinda like the Dreynevent, where people gather from all around the world to spar, attend workshops if they're interested, or buy gear from the sellers there.
Isn't "rule-free" and "non-rigid" sparring better than "ego-loaded" and "winning no matter the cost" tournament fighting?
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>>41359
Not so much with swords or returning them to the scabbard, but a lot of medieval dagger sources take into account whether or not your dagger has already been drawn, and some of the plays become unarmed vs dagger as a result
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>>42783
Dreynevent has tournaments too, you know. They're not a big part of it, but still.
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>>42793
>Dreynevent has tournaments too
I know but as you said yourself
>They're not a big part of it
I'd say they're a very small part even

Afaik the Dreynevent/Dreynschlag guys themselves don't care about tournaments at all and the Dreynevent tournament(s) show that.
No 'proper' judging, no scheduled fights just a "find your opponents yourself and fight somewhere sometime" and nothing to win.
I guess it exists because people want tournaments and aren't satisfied with just free sparring and workshops.

I have nothing against tournaments though, I'd just like to see more 'relaxed' sparring gatherings instead of more and more 'earnest' tournaments
>>
I injured my left hand with red dragon gloves during longsword sparring
Buy good gloves pls
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>>42619
Sounds like bullshit.
The person who wrote it probably practices some different style of saber fencing where they have the thumb on the back of the grip, or halfway between the back and the side(like they do sometimes do in olympic saber). Instead of adapting his fencing to a different weapon, he decided that everyone else who practices polish saber just didn't figure out how to use the weapon correctly.
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>>42836
It's in the same position as a nagel on a messer would be.
Advising against this makes sense, I don't think I've seen or heard of anybody putting their thumb over the nagel.
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>>42846
Just realised it's on the inside, that'll teach me to write half a post then come back to it twenty minutes later.
Either way, putting your thumb through a ring on the inside like that is like thumbing the schilt of a feder. It feels right and you think you're getting some extra hand protection by doing it, but you're actually just poking your thumb above the guard and making it easier to hit.
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>>42846
>>42847
But it's not a nagel, if they had wanted a nagel on their sabers, then they would have had one.
Polish sabers also have far shorter grips than messers. Even if a messer's ring was on the thumb side, you could still comfortably have your thumb under it.
With sabers if you don't use the thumb ring then it's kind of in the way, especially since most thumb rings, on antiques, are actually lower than the one in your picture. People researching and teaching polish saber also mention having greater control when using the thumb ring.
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>>42827
You deserve it.

Learn a better weapon, and stop being American.
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>>42783
>Why is HEMA all about tournaments and not more about sparring gatherings without rigid pools/brackets/fights?

Is it? 90% of sparring I've seen in clubs isn't structured as tournaments, and is mostly freeplay.
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>>42850
>Reading comprehension
I never said it was a nagel, I said it would be in the same place as one (perpendicular to the crossguard) and then corrected myself by pointing out it was on the inside.
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>>42783

All of HEMA events are like that, coupled with classes and one-offs. Tournaments are tournaments.
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>>42887
Yeah, and my point was that just because it's in a similar position doesn't mean that it should be used in the same way. I understood what you meant perfectly well, I just think you are wrong.
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>>40588
you would be surprized how much Longpoint is good for baiting and more genrealy to confuse people on their initiative. seen a guy win a tournament being on Longpoint all day.
i still maintain that overly using Longpoint is being a little gay.
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mfw all the treatises of french fencing kept in the royal library got destroyed during the revolution and we are left with only 3 skinny ass manuals
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>>42783
i don't know where you are but in europe there are gatherings outside of tournaments. to have participated in one of these its pretty cool, lastong over 3 days there was themed lesson courses and some special events. some really silly like that one time there was an underwear dussack duel session. the one with less marks on the body was the winner. that was hilarious.
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>>42986
>seen a guy win a tournament being on Longpoint all day.
How? Why did no one krump him until he stopped?
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>>43061
>How? Why didn’t people make the same predictable response!
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>>43061
It's funny because in the you don't krump against a thrust, as they can easily disengage below. You schiller against it instead. Have you read the book before armchair fencing?
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>>43061
Quit. This is not rock paper scissor.
>>
Why is the average skill level for HEMA so low? Uncoordinated footwork, sloppy half-hearted swings, poor blade alignment, etc. Is it really that new of a martial art?
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>>43314
Nerds sport
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>>43314
there is not enough people to have actual restriuctions when enlisting in a HEMA club. which is kinda sad because i am tiered of larpers and weak ass oponents taht you have to exlain shit over and over before they get it. its tiresome and boring to fight agaist. good thing there still are competitions and gatherings.
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>>43314
>>43323
I just got into HEMA. I've been doing Kung Fu for an ass long time and I got sick of only swinging weapons in the air all fancy like. Most of the people in my club seem to be beginners who've never had any real martial arts training before. I'm starting to appreciate the reps and reps of traditional forms I've had to do when the guy next to you doesn't appear to even know how to walk. I'm getting tips and fixing bad habits that are bleeding back into my Kung Fu as well and I'm starting to see some more context behind my old forms.
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>>43323
What do you mean by restrictions? Are you expecting some kind of try out or other form of gatekeeping? I know 0 martial arts that do this unless it's some kind of professional team. If your lucky you'll get advanced level only classes, but your best bet is to just find the jewels in the dirt and polish them.
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>>39963
Non heat treated might mean it will snap, chip or bend when it hits something. Might be best to just display that on a wall and get a properly treated weapon? It will be a lot safer for you and your sparing partner.
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>>43329
alright let me rephrase that real quick. i don't mind begginers to practice HEMA, but when you try to progress, this is surprizingly hard to find advanced training courses, and challenging opponents. regardless of where you are in the world, this sport is relatively new and there is that kind of ultrawide acceptance in order to have actual training sessions. you can be morbidly obese, skelly thin, and have no physical coordination whatosever you will still be accepted with open arms. which is okay, but this stops every person that wants to go further from progressing, or people with an existing matial training, since you have to include everyone in the session. this is especially hard in smaller structures, with about 15 people at maximum, you can't split the class. and i'm getting tiered of this. before confinement i remember explaining 7 times the same movmement and demonstrat about the same amount for that one girl to physically process the basis of the movmement and get to work on it. i'm not an instructor btw, which is what annoys me. i want to fight and learn techniques. not helping a 45 y/o mom getting her weekly sport done.
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>>43335
see i wish there would be clubs large enough to have separated begginer and advanced sessions
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>>43335
I hear you, but it still sounds to me like having an advanced only class remedies this. If there's not enough people, you'll have to continue recruiting for a bit, make more of the noob good until you have an advanced class.

The coach at my club also is sure to walk around and police the noobs, and he splits the pairs for drills so that it's noob on noob.

Does your HEMA club offer any kind of physical conditioning? I've tried two different clubs so far and neither did anything beyond running for 3 minutes or so before going to technique training.
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>>43335
>but this stops every person that wants to go further from progressing, or people with an existing matial training, since you have to include everyone in the session.

> or people with an existing matial training

what did you mean by this? Could not tell.
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>>43340
martial* training

>>43339
i am not talking about my own club only, its quite common to have just too few people to have separate classes. also we have about 1 hour of physical training, but physical training is not fighting. but i'm going to change club, the one i'm in is way too slow on teaching, and is so noob friendly there is no progression.
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>>43314
>Is it really that new of a martial art?
It is an INCREDIBLY new martial art. HEMA has been around for about 30 years, most other martial arts have teachers that have been practicing for double that amount, and those teachers have learned from people that have practiced that long as well and so on and so on. I'm not talking about stuff like kung fu, karate, or kenjutsu either. Arts like boxing and olympic fencing have coaches who started practicing in the 1930's.
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>>43337
There are
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What the fuck has happened to my club?

In our last training, we spent twenty minutes warming up, by which I just mean spinning our joints around like we're arthritic grandparents. The sportier warmup came afterwards, and was another twenty minutes, which was pretty a pretty much a warmup for the next warmup, aka throwing basic cuts. Finally, we did some basic, underwhelming footwork drills, or in other words, slow sidestepping with everyone in a circle, nice and slow for the two fatties. Finally, the instructor decided it would be a good idea to spend 30 minutes "examining" the thumb grip (i.e. transitioning between it and other grips while doing literally nothing else) even though everyone there was already intimately familiar with it. Notably, no heavy gloves were involved, even though grip switching is only remotely difficult when you're wearing them.
After we squandered all that training time, which is rare and precious these days, we could finally spar for just thirty minutes, as an afterthought. At least we did a workout afterwards, but "fear" of that workout stops some people from sparring energetically. This was the only time when there even was any blade contact, even though contact sport's unrestricted here.

The exercises we do are pointless and dumb, especially considering who shows up to these trainings. As far as I know the instructor's been doing nothing but copying HEMATICS without taking the actual club members' respective experience into account.
Currently I'm pretty sure I'm the only guy in this fucking club who reads any sources, there might be one other but he's not showing up atm.
I keep organising dedicated sparring sessions, but for some reason very few show up. Last week's had to be outright cancelled because nobody said they'd show up. People here aren't interested in sparring, they're not interested in productive drills, and they're not interested in the sources. We may as well do Tai Chi.
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>>43314
>Why is the average skill level for HEMA so low?
Too many Americans involved. Until we manage to gatekeep all Americans out of HEMA it will never improve.
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>>43337
>see i wish there would be clubs large enough to have separated begginer and advanced sessions
They exist. They're the exception, not the rule. Our club has been around as a formal entity for 6 years now, and we're still only seeing ~12 people in a class. Moreover, we can only have a class 1/week, for 2 hours, because it's a working fencing salle and we pay them to use their space when they have open time. Every year we look for a new space, and every year we can't afford the rent/utilities/insurance that the venues around us would charge. So we continue in 1/week classes, and have to mix beginners and vets, because there isn't an alternative.

>To get a different space, we need a regular club income of ~$2500/month. We make about $500-600.

I would give my right nut for someone rich enough to just buy a space for us, so I can start teaching 4 nights a week, for a reasonable amount of time each night, plus running actual PT. But it's just not in the cards for us, and for a WHOLE LOT of other clubs.
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>>43361
Just ask your government to pay for it lol. That's what we do.
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>>43357
>HEMATICS
How are they even? Haven't seen anything yet and never heard of the guy(s?) doing it.

>We may as well do Tai Chi.
I feel that way for most HEMA clubs tbqh, most don't train efficiently and focus their training around their weakest members
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>>43361
First, awful reddit spacing
Second, it's a problem im familiar too but our club is well band together and everyone accepts the newbies, even the more competitive members
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>>43357
What about your master? He's the key for this sort of things, if he wants to push the more skilled members an alternative solution could be found easily, if he doesnt care about this then...
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Whats the reference text for rapier in France
When you think of the rapier you think of musketeers but i cant figure whats their most widespread system
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>>43374
I don't think French rapier texts survive, blame the French Revolution. The closest things are Thibault (arguably Dutch, based on Spanish Destreza) and Sainct Didier (more of a sidesword treatise)
I'd go with something Italian, Fabris (very influental in Germany), Capo Ferro, Agrippa or whatever.
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>>43367
>>43367
>>HEMATICS
>How are they even? Haven't seen anything yet and never heard of the guy(s?) doing it.
It's an Austrian guy's Patreon thing. German language only afaik, old-school Liechtenauer. Good material from what I've heard, but of course you have to use it properly, and I wager that isn't happening here.

>>We may as well do Tai Chi.
>I feel that way for most HEMA clubs tbqh, most don't train efficiently and focus their training around their weakest members
Most clubs suck, that's undeniably true, but we've always been behind the curve even then. Just before the 'rona at least part of our club finally understood the virtues of actually training in gear and with intensity (I pushed for that hard), but that lesson's seemingly been forgotten again since we weren't allowed to do anything with body- or blade contact for almost half a year.

>>43373
>What about your master? He's the key for this sort of things, if he wants to push the more skilled members an alternative solution could be found easily, if he doesnt care about this then...
I don't think you could justify calling anyone in HEMA a "master".
With that being said, the instructor in this case is undeniably a good fencer with a solid tournament record, he has a lengthy martial arts background. However, a good fencer isn't necessarily a good teacher. He was never great at teaching, and how his approach has become totally half-hearted now.
He isn't entirely to blame though. As I said, I organise weekly sparring sessions, but getting anybody to actually do anything at this stage is fucking hard, I can get three others to join in at best. It feels like people have just become awfully demotivated over the past year, and that has made every problem with our club worse.
We used to have four trainings a week pre-2020. We're down to two now, the one that instructor runs and the open sparring sessions I organise.
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>>43327
The good news is that people who come from Chinese martial arts have consistenly been the best HEMAists in my experience. Spoffs tend to overspoff their footwork and be uncomfortable with passing footwork, JSA guys tend to be dorks, people whose martial arts background is Game of Thrones or Witcher are plain retarded.

The bad news is that last group is a majority of HEMA practitioners at the moment.
>>
Me and my friend are both knew to longsword. He consistently parries and blocks with his hands and this is leading to a lot of pain and frustration on his end. Do you have any experience with this problem in beginners? Any advice?
>>
Keep your hands behind that cross guard. If this is happening during his cuts he's likely not leading his tip.
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>>43255
>>43260
>>43311
>krumping the sword and not his extended out hands
For all you wondering why hemaists suck at fencing this is why. Theyre retards.
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>>43501
Post your medals bro
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>>43374
>Whats the reference text for rapier in France
There is nothing like that. Anything resembling a "French school" is only known from references in other treatieses, e.g. Alfieri makes some claims about how the French like to hold their guards. The only fully French treatise I know exists is Dancie's L'Espée de Combat, and it's hardly exhaustive, or typical of anything like a school. Otherwise the closest thing is Girolamo Cavalcabo's treatise, which was written in Italian by an Italian fencer, but which had an immensely popular French translation. Cavalcabo also taught the young Louis XIII to fence, so he has pretty close ties to France, but he's definitely not representative of French fencing, he's very much of the Italian school as you'd expect him to be.
>>
>all the guys on my club posting about how much they miss training and keep buying swords
>I always suggest to have a spar day o an small meeting with 3-4 guys
>they never have time or make excuses to not show up
>finally meet
>an entire hour of pictures and posing for instagram
>spar for just 30 minutes
I hate most of the HEMA community, they just like to look cool and talk about how a real swordfight would be
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>>43556
>I hate most of the HEMA community, they just like to look cool and talk about how a real swordfight would be
That's what I noticed as well with the HEMA community. They like to argue esoteric hypothetical "If they do X, then I do Y" nonsensical situations. In oly fencing or in especially Kendo, talking during practice is frowned upon and considered disrespectful because you're wasting both yours and everyone else's time.
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>>43556
>>43564
Are you guys burgers? Euro here and I haven't seen a bit of this cuntery.
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>>43569
Yes, and I think that's part of the issue.
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>>43580
It is. Americans shouldn't be allowed to do HEMA. You spoil it just like you spoiled everything else. Go be fat somewhere else.
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Does your club even do 100m sprints?
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>>43596
I tried to introduce sprints, less than 100m, two guys hurt themselves the very first time, don't ask me how.
Haven't done them since.
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>>43596
No, but we do around 1000-1500 practice swings as warm up.
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>>43598
>I tried to introduce sprints, less than 100m, two guys hurt themselves the very first time
KEK
This confirms all of my stereotypes about burgers
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>>43556
I fucking hate how they sometimes drink beer while and after training
I've never seen that fucking shit in any sport ever
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>>43596
No, we do shorter sprints after warmup, I guess around 50m but 4-8 times.
Most physical training is outside of class though, we're expected to work out at home and at least the tournament fencers do
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>>43544
>Anything resembling a "French school" is only known from references in other treatieses
Are we talking specifically about rapiers or the french school of fencing in general because there are absolutely smallsword and saber manuals that come from france.
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>>43646
>I fucking hate how they sometimes drink beer while and after training
ive definitely trained other sports where people will occasionally drink after a session but during? What the fuck? Are your mates really getting hammered then swinging blunt metal objects at eachother?
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>>43501
No one actually specified Krumpfing the blade. Krumpfhau is often a strike to the hands its the counter to ochs after all. Reread the Krumpfhau passages.

Thats said striking to the blade and not the hands is better competitionfag HEMA because of Gloves that feel nothing, shitty judging and cringelord women fencing of tagging hands all day. At least finish with a thrust.
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>>43679
>Krumpfhau
it's Krumphau, without the 'f'
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>>43670
Anon said "reference text for rapier" so yes, obviously they're talking specifically about rapiers, retard.
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>>43635
I'm sorry to say that this happened in Europe
In their defence, both were well over the age of fourty and one is a recovering I.33ist.
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>>43714
Bon sang, c'est cryngatif!
>>
It sucks not having a real club around.
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>>43753
Go to events and such, see hundreds of different fencers, thats how you improve, clubs get stale after while for personal progression, they're good only for excercise
>>
Does anyone have an english pdf translation of Rosaroll's la scienza della scherma?
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>>40219
Get into gear...or don’t and find out homie.
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>>40318
From America I’d say, mercifully a little less than half of my clubs regulars are fat. You don’t tend to see the tubby buddies on sparring day though. Those that do show up and are decent I respect.
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>>40713
You shut your filthy continental mouth.
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>>41359
Not sure if it’s Harley or Ledall that has flourishes which could be used in this manner. They are mainly used before a fight or demonstration to “show off your flair.” desu if you did that shit after your clubs salute before our match I’d probably laugh my ass off. Then subsequently prove you with true and test you with false.
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>>43646
Lol loosen up man, don’t drink during class, don’t drink during a serious secondary practice. Drinking with your mates as you guys work on x and y with some sparring I don’t see a problem.

Do you think every one was stone cold sober in the Renaissance practicing ? Drinking and sword fighting are like the most red blooded masculine things you can do.
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>>43701
>Anything resembling a "French school" is only known from references in other treatieses,
Your fault for not being specific
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>>43839
>You don’t tend to see the tubby buddies on sparring day though.
Ive had the opposite experience. Its the tubbies that want to go apeshit and try to hurt people sparring. The only people in my club who dont want to spar ever are women.
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>>43840
brave words for a sweaty englishman in stabbing distance
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>>43965
Lmao *snap*
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>>43965
I honestly don't understand how people can take his opinions, concerning martial arts, seriously.
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>>39923
Can I start a HEMA club if I’ve never practiced HEMA? The reason I want to start one is that I have no clubs nearby but a couple friends who want to try it.
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>>43986
Aye I recommend ye travel to the nearest city and train under someone who seems like they know what their doing for atleast 2-3 lessons though.
>>
Anyone know of any events happening in the American South East anytime soon?

>>43756
Thanks for the advice. I really wanted to go to CombatCon but I found out about it a little later than I’d like. Definitely setting my sights on next year.
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>>43983
There are a lot of guys out there who are exactly like him except they don't have a Youtube channel, c.f. >>43556 >>43564
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>>43983
Because all he does is talk about weapons and gear. It's common for people to conflate knowledge about gear with knowing how to use the gear.
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>>43965
I would love nothing more than to kick shads stupid fat ass up and down the ring on camera.
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>>44026

Knowing him, he'd post a video about how *actually he kicked your arse because you didn't do X/Y/Z*

He's such a knob.
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>>39923
How do I have sex with this girl?
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>>44118
besting her in combat, so you have no chance at all
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>>44124
Implying women can actually fence.
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>>43992
2-3 lessons? What can I glean from a couple lessons that would make me legitimate?
>>
Is there money in competitive HEMA? Or just glory and free swords?
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>>44163
>Is there money in competitive HEMA?
Haha, no.

>Or just glory and free swords?
Not even that.
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>>44163
>free swords
sometimes that, but mostly just a shitty medal
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>>44163
>>44203
Maybe not so much "glory" but some tournaments do offer gear for first place.
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>>44139
More than you can from not taking them.
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>>44139
For clarification, I mean 1 on 1 private lessons. You could work through all of Meyer’s longsword in 3 sessions. Of course you won’t be a journeyman in that time, but hopefully you could take notes and get some nuanced perspective that will help you navigate with your other newfags.
>>
Also as you get started with your friends, I suggest that you record your sessions and post them here or elsewhere for external feedback
>>
I wish my instructor would finally introduce me to the other members of the club. What is it a cult? Perhaps you’re reading now.
>>
My feder is slightly bent. What should I do?
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>>44265
Stop being bad at Hema and fucking up your equipment.
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>>44118
>girl
>she
No real women play with swords, because they know they'd lose automatically the moment they had to fight any real man. That's just a slightly above average tranny.
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>>43986
You can as long as you don't walk around claiming to be an instructor. Make it into a study group sort of thing rather than a school.

>>44139
It's to give you a baseline to work from so you don't have to start entirely from scratch.
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>>44257
why dont you introduce yourself?
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>>44295
I’ve never seen them. I do not know their names. I only have anecdotal evidence of their existence. He meets with me privately. I haven’t made it to the inner circle.
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>>44274
red got the point but nearly tripped over himself twice, got ran out of the court, and showed his back?
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>>44298
What the fuck? Are you taking private lessons? What the hell are you talking about?
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>>44311
one of the reasons why (some/most?) tournament fights are completely worthless
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>>44274
Absurd that running out of the ring isn't a full point score for your opponent.

>>44311
>>44326
Surely the moral is that Russian WAACfags are just as cancerous as retarded fatburgers.
>>
>>44265
Unbend it ? I just got one from purple heart and I’m still on the fence about it. It’s whippy as fuck compared to my chlebowski. But man does it allow me to go fast.
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>>44139
Lol nothing. It takes a considerable amount of time to even be competent and ready to spar if you don’t want to be btfo constantly.
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>>44411
Sensible anon. Mine is from the purple heart as well. Is yours stiff as hell too? My training friends do not appreciate getting thrusted with it.
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>>44427
My clebowski is right on the threshold of being too stiff but it’s a standard long sword not a feder. It’s been beat up enough to be come a bit more flexible. The feder I’ve only maybe put 8 hours behind so I’m still getting used to my blade being floppy after a ward.
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>>41459
what about pesto and alfredo?
>>
hemafema
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I sure hope you guys are hand and leg sniping, it's in the sources!
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>>44757
It's in the sources because it works
It's looked down on today because it works too well and destroys the image of what fencing "is supposed to look like".

If you look at skeletons on historical battlefields, most have injuries on their hands, forearms and calves (eg. Visby). When it comes to survival, aesthetics don't matter.

BTW leg sniping vanished because people stopped using shields. The counter to it is simple pulling your leg back and hitting to the head, which is a lot easier when there's no shields.
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>>44139
Actually you don't even need that. Since there are no surviving lineages, everyone is simply making it up as they go along and their interpretations will be heavily colored by whatever they did before.

You can simply do your own interpretations.
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>>44799
Also they way I do it is researching if any styles have surviving "offspring" and then looking at those. For example, it used to be said traditional Jap Jiu Jitsu was just like Renaissance wrestling, so if you wonder how people trained back then, just look at that. Some Escrima styles were heavily influenced by Spanish/Italian military fencing (eg. Cinco Teros), so look what they're doing to get an idea of how Med military fencing looked back then (Of course it won't be identical, but also not radically different).
Then you compare sources and surviving offspring schools and you are getting an idea of what this stuff is supposed to look like.

Sometimes you get extremely weird hypotheses, eg. I'm of the opinion Xing Yi Quan Kungfu got created when a Xinyi Liuhe guy was beaten by a western bare knuckle pugilist and started boxing combined with Kungfu theory. Since the style has no real verifiable history before Li Luoneng in the 19th century (They heyday of pugilism) and the techniques are basically identical, nobody was able to debunk this yet.
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>>42614
I used to run around in the rocky woods barefoot.
I found that this walking style was very helpful not to mangle my feet.
It also provides a lot of springyness to the body. Good for rapid movement and direction changes without having to use too much strength. Very effecient.

I was surprised when I saw this video before it was taken down. Someone else discovered the technique I made up!
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>>42116
>The thing that matters will be "winning tournaments", not " recreating a lost martial art"
What makes you think both are not one and the same?

These martial arts were not created to illustrate philosophical concepts (well, la veradera destreza was maybe) like many asian styles were, but to be effective in real combat or competition. Generally, you will therefore find that the effective interpretation is the correct one.
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>>44805
It's called "mud walking step" in Kungfu. Not terribly excentric.
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>>44808
Mud walking step is more hips, less ankles
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>>44807
>What makes you think both are not one and the same?
Compare modern olympic foil to traditional smallsword. Too heavy a focus on winning standardized competition inevitably leads to a metagame unrelates to the original martial art.
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>>44832
They weren't trying to reverse engineer ancient martial arts though. They explicitely wanted to make a sports game unrelated to actual combat back then.
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>>44809
Just nuances.
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>>44833
Right but if the focus chsnges to tournaments instead of reverse engineering martial arts we'll see the same devolution to gaming the rules.

Or evolution, if thats what you want. but im wary especially of standardizing rules as some in the hema alliance have suggested doing.
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>>44807
While an effective interpretation is more likely to be correct, how are you testing its effectiveness? in the early modern period there were multiple kinds of sword fights and tournament play, with vastly different rules or the lack there of. Some of these rule sets were not what we would consider realistic.

Also your finding solutions with a lot of historical information available. Swordsmanship changes over time. At one point the master cuts were not well known outside of a few masters, within a hundred years or so they were all over German fencing, but masters from other parts of Europe might not have been as familiar with them, and thus less likely to take them into account. You might find you have a technique that will almost always beat an interpretation, but that does not make the interpretations wrong in the historical sense.
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>>44851
The master cuts are a matter of vocabulary. Other systems have very similar cuts, but describe them differently.
For example, a left Zwerch in Bolognese is "Throw a Roverso Tondo to his head, making sure you cover your own head in the same tempo."
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>>44905
Rent all our bolognese longsword sources from the renaissance? By that point im not sure its unreasonable to think it may have been diffused in from the german system.
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>>44925
*arent
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>>44905
It was only a theoretical example, the point is that people worked to develop their systems to out compete other masters. You would expect later systems to have solutions to earlier tactics.





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