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File: osensei.jpg (13 KB, 200x263)
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A thread for discussing Aikido.
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>>31267
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Mp0a1TAXw
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>>31270
That's just an exercise on getting out of the way, you're not actually supposed to fight swords with your fists. Though much of aikido is loosely based on sword technique.
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>>31274
Most aikido is based on Daito ryu, all most all of it actually, and while no one is sure where Takeda got his training in jujutsu, most of its basic techniques are pretty standard Japanese jujutsu. Many of them are similar to sumo moves, something Takeda was said to be an expert in, and that was practiced in Ueshiba's dojo as a type of warm up/game all the time, they also did kendo too.

In fact Ueshiba's sword was basically self taught, he had a lot of friends and students with high level weapons trying but very little himself. Takeda on the other hand was widely known for his kenjutsu even before he began to teach Daito ryu. Many of the schools he studied have material relating to close combat and general principles that go beyond sword use which may have made their way into his empty handed stuff, but if so those teachings are buried in the foundations rather than the techniques.

As for such disarming demos, there is a rather famous story where an aikido shihan spoke up at a meeting at the honbu and said they should stop doing them because people with weapons experience are watching and know they don't work.
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I find it really cringy when I see white people wear hakama and practice this especially because when I went to the martial arts center in japan the people doing aikido were wearing sweat pants and a tshirt that says aikido on the back
some of the students had a gi on, but there was no hakama in sight
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>>31270
Why do HEMA nerds act like their shit is the practical MMA of the melee weapons world?
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>>31357
Beginner's zeal, mostly. It's common in every martial art or sport as means for people to justify to themselves that what they are doing is "practical" or worthwhile. Anyone who has practiced anything longer than a honeymoon period will realize there are reasons beyond practicality for doing what they do.

There is nothing practical about learning how to use a dated weapon system. That said, any sort of practicality (mindset, judgment of opportunity, spacial distance, timing) is trained better in arts such as western fencing or Kendo; where rules are clearly defined and there is a pedigree for competitiveness. It's easier to teach a fencer or Kendoka manuscripts for HEMA or Kenjutsu kata than it is the other way around. HEMA devolves into two armored guys flailing at each other half the time with no regard to technique and Kenjutsu doesn't do sparring.
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>>31342
I meant in that you can do nykio with a bokken or hand to hand. I explained that wrong.
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>>31270
the person they have trying to dodge is slow as fuck though
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>>31342
It seems to me that daito uses a kind of up and down movement for aiki (lit. age and sage - raise and lower) , but aikido uses footwork to make it a bit more horizontal like baguazhang.

As far as I've been able to use them in sparring, those appear to be the main differences.

Daito trains the techniques small, aikido trains them huge, but in sparring for me, they don't stay any particular size range.
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One thing that I found is that -in aikido demonstrations- you're really trusting the other person not to let go of you in order to finish the technique.
But in daito, there are specific tricks to prevent the other person from being able to let go. It makes me think that Morehei's aikido probably had these tricks too. Probably the students never figured it out - since his old students say that it was a very traditional "steal these techniques" kind of dojo. Not the more modern "here let me teach you everything" dojo.
Still I wonder if it only seemed that way to the students because they couldn't understand the bizarre method of lecturing Morehei had. Everything was literally some abstract buddhist/shinto principle and you were supposed to just understand how it applied to martial arts.
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>>31370
>>31371
I don't do either so I am only basing this off what research there is. Daito ryu, or at least some lines of it are known to have stance and breathing exercises similar to Chinese internal arts. We know that Ueshiba and some of his top students would spend hours a day on solo training. We also know that most aikidoka, and most daito ryu practitioners today do not.

There is also a certain weeding out effect that has been lost. Like I said things like sumo and kendo were common place in Aikido and daito ryu dojo at the time, likewise there was still a culture of dojo taking challengers through the mid Showa era. Most of that is gone now. When something is on the line, even if it's just pride, people tend to train harder.

Its also worth remembering the difference in culture. Bringing the fight to the ground was not a big thing in Takada's day, nor was boxing or karate style pugilism popular in Japan at the time. Daito ryu and by extention aikido did not take those types of fighting into serious consideration when they were made, because it generally was not done. That is not true today.
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For me it's yoshinkan
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>>31384
Well there was also the fact that after the bombs dropped O-sensei had a spiritual experience that led to him teaching aikido like physical meditation rather than the continuation of samurai grappling.
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>>31419
Despite seeming to focus on shinto in his lectures, he had extensive formal buddhist schooling at a young age. He was always like that. Japan's loss pushed him even more that way than he was already.
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>>31419
This is a popular myth, which is bolstered by the confusion between the values of western and eastern religion.

Ueshiba was talking about peace long before the war, however by "peace" he meant humanity joining together under the aegis of the Emperor, a position he maintained even after the war! At the same time he was talking about spirituality he was teaching at the Nakano spy school: the main training center for imperial Japanese military intelligence. Ueshiba was prominent in right wing circles. Nor did what he taught before or after the war change much, in fact he was still giving certificates in Daito ryu past the forties.

It was actually his son who made most of the changes to postwar aikido. He eliminated some of the more shamanistic and "internal" practices that his father did, and made a big effort to spread aikido oversees. Yet even he laughed at the idea his dad was some sort of pacifist.
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>>31397
よし
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>>31424
he had some experience with Buddhism but his passion in those days was Omoto kyo: a far right wing Shinto cult led by a "holy man" who was eventually put on trail for lese majeste. Still he continued to practice the various meditation techniques they taught all his life.
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>>31428
calling what he had "some experience" is really minimizing.
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>>31429
Maybe, he was always something of a spiritual seeker but Omoto kyo was the religion he basically settled in.
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>>31431
Its such a strange one. I wonder if the specific appeal of it to him is well recorded anywhere.
Given its history, its natural there would be more editorializing about it than anything. Surely its a different thing altogether in hindsight.
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for anyone practicing aikido:
would aikido be useful in any way to someone with a judo background?
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>>31435
Judo fags will understand what its actually trying to pretend its doing better than anyone, probably.
Won't have the daito aiki knowledge, but I think a lot of judo people have a similar skill already.

As for if it will help you,
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>>31433
>I wonder if the specific appeal of it to him

Like esoteric Buddhism, Omoto kyo taught a lot of advanced rituals and forms of meditation, one which we know Ueshiba did was called "Chinkon Kishin". Its a shamanistic ritual in which you allow a shinto deity to "possess" you.

There is a long history in Japan of martial artist seeking "divine inspiration" in order to take their art to the next level, which is partially way Japanese arts in general are often thought of as "spiritual" though these divinely inspired arts were meant to be practical, as in" "so effective because a god designed them and not a human" Its hard to know if Ueshiba was seeking that specifically, but he certainly mixed his spiritual practices with with martial arts in multiple ways.
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>>31439
Sounds neat.
Do you have any links for how to do these esoteric practices?
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>>31477
No, and from what I read they are dangerous to perform on your own. To strain a metaphor your basically hacking your brain to do something it was not meant for. It can bring various psychological issues to the surface so it should really only be done with someone with experience.
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>>31357
The amount of sparring.
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>>31512
Now this is old school bullshido. Ueshiba had jedi powers that novices are too weak to handle? I thought dudes like you wouldn't post outside /x/.
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>>31435
I'm sure only few people who train aikido as real martial art can properly beat a judoka with the same level and similar experience.
I'm curious if shodokan guys have judoka-like abilities and can spar with them. But I have never worked with anyone of this style.

>>31521
>Ueshiba had jedi powers
That anon was right, in the old days budokas also had some mystical training (in japan was mikkyo, shugendo...) that gave them that special abilities. China had taoist rituals, India Yoga. At the end of the day all those practices were what we call now Internal Strenght, Internal Power. Internal Power is real, get over it.
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>>31536
Internal power is definitely real. I've been thrown by people who have it and ended up confused on my ass from only a little touch. Truly incredible martial artists.
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>>31361
This kind of thinking is driving your style to the edge of extinction and uselessness. HEMA and other martial arts are not stagnating (HEMA was dead and got revived bc people reinvented it). Also

>HEMA devolves into two armored guys flailing at each other

Im not a HEMA guy and i would aruge that is one of the most retarded Martial arts arguements i ever heard
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>>31521
Meditation is magical now? I mean sure people thought it was magical in the medieval period but today we know its just an altered state of consciousness. You can watch videos of Evangelical Christians zoned out in a kind of self induced trance. People think of shamanism and meditation as these super rare things you never see, but its present to some extent in almost every spiritual tradition. But just because we now understand the physiological basis of such things does not make them completely safe. Nor does it give you special fighting powers, most people who practice meditation of that sort are religious devotees. Nonetheless, it is true that some martial artists pursued such training to gain a new perspective on what they were doing, or to gain a greater level of mental control, or because they believed divine intervention and inspiration were real.

>>31536
You should not conflate the various spiritual practices with the so called "internal arts". Granted there was often cross over, in that early modern people often saw such esoterica as interrelated, and these rituals often shared various things like altered breathing patterns etc and were probably often taught together to some extent, but one is effects the mind while the other strengthens the body. You can do one without ever touching the other.
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>>31536
>>31538
It's 2021, videos or it didn't happen. I've only seen one demonstration which was a sweaty fat guy pushing against a Chinese dude and said Chinese dude would turn and throw him. Not revolutionary, I want to see the magic.
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>>31536
>>31538
i've never seen an aikido practitioner at any level of skill who i'd expect to beat a judo practitioner with more than a year of experience, unless maybe there was some crazy egregious weight difference.
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>>31655
This is personal experience, sorry.
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>>31671
Aikido techniques are quite similar to judo if you get rid of the flowery movement. I believe that if someone used practical aikido and was matched in experience with a judo practitioner the chances would be 50/50. Though, ultimately aikido is meant to be more defensive than offensive.
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>>31267
>Read up about Aikido a few months back
>Closest place for joining is 1.5 hours away
pain
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>>31346
So I've been doing this for a while, and we usually just train in whatever is comfortable. The only time the Hakama ever come out is when I have to judge a competition, and that's mostly just so that when all of the parents/friends are looking for the person in charge they know where to look.
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>>31267
Aikido is where broken down judoka go to die.
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>>31655
My Shiken is a bit of a monster, guys got higher mastery in a bunch of different martial arts, and he'd beat my ass even though he's in his 70s. In his own words, using Ki and stuff to "augment your abilities" is just an old spiritual way to describe having REALLY good breath and muscle control. It's not magic, it's just good technique, I'm not going to outlift a guy with 50kg on me in raw strength, but technique does come into it. Most high level athletes are doing it, they just don't call it magical bullshit it isn't
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>>31678
My Instructor beat a nationally relevant kickboxer at one point cause he was one of the dads of the kids' class. It was just a simple knockdown match and he got a kick in the jaw for it, but he was actually doing most of the attacking.
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>>31678
>practical aikido
Maybe an aikidoka would catch someone with a gimmicky wristlock, the rest of the time he's going to get let down by the terrible curriculum and training style of aikido.

He hasn't done thousands of uchikomis and hundreds of rounds against people who are trying to throw him. And judo's gimmicky shit is better still - you don't see aikidoka doing stuff like seoi-nage, tai-otoshi, or even sumi-gaeshi immediately from grips. Ceteris paribus, the aikidoka is getting launched and he's getting pinned.
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>>31678
>Aikido techniques are quite similar to judo
not really. but let's say that is true, even the most absolutely practical aikido isn't sparred with proper resistance like judo is. i say this as a student of bjj. unless you've sparred at close to full intensity, your techniques are completely irrelevant. it doesn't matter how dangerous you think they are, or effective they may be in theory. if you haven't put in the time to be able to use them in live sparring, the move is useless.
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>>31688
>beat a nationally relevant kickboxer
>knockdown match
hardly sounds like a match
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>>31693
I do admit that many aikido dojos in the USA are terrible, and as such, many American practitioners are also terrible. There aren't any standards for teaching.
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>>31701
>unless you've sparred at close to full intensity
I don't know about other people, but before covid, we did at least 15 minutes of sparring each class. Now we only do weapons stuff because you can stay further away from other people. You also have to realize that aikido is different from other martial arts, in that the point isn't to beat someone up, but to prevent them hurting you. Of course you can break someone's arm with a nykyo or a sankyo but in modern times, you would probably have to leave the dojo unless it was an accident (unlike the old days when that happened fairly often). The most common injury is a dislocated shoulder or a broken collarbone.
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>>31711
*serious injury.
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>>31678
This discussion has been done to death.
Aikido works best as religious system.as a Martial arts it is lacking (from the unrealistic throws and locks, to pressure testing). Train judo if you want working stand up grappling with a touch of Japanese budo
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>>31711
I don't think this excuse passes the smell test. The best way to not get hurt is using practical takedowns and pins and whatnot, which requires alive training. The idea that Aikido is more pacifistic and thats why they don't train properly is old school TMA stuff. If you never pressure test it you sure as shit won't be able to do it on the street. Judo and wrestling do aikido better than aikido. In fact, there's a lot of footage of grapplers defending themselves in real life. Most of them BJJ guys like Ryan Hall, who overwhelmingly prefer a simple takedown and their ability to maintain top position which will neutralize any belligerent asshole. Fancy standing jointlocks and aikido throws aren't nearly so reliable.
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>>31721
>The idea that Aikido is more pacifistic and thats why they don't train properly
No, its because there aren't very many good teachers.
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>>31729
Or maybe it's because the training pedagogy is terrible and thus does not produce competent grapplers.
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is this the dancing general?
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>>31267
Seething Judo bros ITT
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>>31701
There are actually styles of aikido with judo style randori, such as Tokimi aikido, the rules are somewhat artificial in that you can only use aikido techniques, but its out there.
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>>31655
If your looking for videos there are plenty, of people pushing some chinese guy who doesn't move and then throws or pushes them back, and the more advanced the more it looks fake, to the point the only way to tell who is faking and who is not is to feel them yourself. Some of them really can do it.

But that does not make them gods. It just means they have one, very hard to train skill that has some applications in grappling. That alone does not make them a good grappler.
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>>31655
Ignoring the terminology, but have you ever grappled?

There are guys with the experience to just play with you and stuff your attacks in spite of being older, weaker men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YS-WF6nlA0
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>>31744
>>31729
Its not like theres a contradiction here
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>>31748
I like the idea instead, of finding a ruleset that makes the techniques arise naturally when the game is played freely.
Our group made some progress in this regard.
One thing that appears is that these kinds of techniques become more likely if you're trying to grapple while keeping somebody at a distance.

Another, is altering the training methods themselves. The way aikido is taught, it almost seems to be optimizing for INABILITY to apply it.
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>>31721
>like Ryan Hall, who overwhelmingly prefer a simple takedown
In competition Hall absolutely does not prefer simple takedowns, he's notorious as the MMA Iminari roll guy
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>>31622
>no counterargument
>just call him retarded
HEMA purists will practice manuscript techniques and not engage in competitive sparring, this eventually leads to esoteric interpretations and useless swordplay

Competition HEMA has varying rulesets that have yet to be ironed out. It's still men flailing swords in armor with subjective interpretations of the outcome.
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>>31357
We don't. But like MMA, HEMA practitioners believe in alive training. It's easy to say MMA = ALIVE, but many martial arts, both new and old, are alive without being anything like MMA.
Boxing, Fencing, HEMA, Kendo, Wrestling, Muayi Thai, that weird staff fighting in western africa, etc.

Why everybody have, and always will critique aikido, is because it has no alive training, and many in high positions inside aikido groups actually believe that alive training is somehow bad.
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>>31926
Yes, in competition. But I was specifically talking about self defense. The grammar is a little miffed there, my bad, but I was saying that from the footage I've seen, a simple takedown seems preferred in a street fight by grapplers in general. No one goes for anything fancy.
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>>31936
Continue to drink your Aikido koolaid
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>>31969
>and many in high positions inside aikido groups actually believe that alive training is somehow bad.

This is so fucking frustrating. Ima start my own aikido with whisky and hookers.
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>>32046
Aliveness is going to reveal that this shit is too intricate to use on someone live. Aikido would just turn into judo.
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>>32047
The thing is there are already aikido sects that have competition. Some aikido certainly is flowery and showy but a lot of it is pretty standard Japanese jujutsu at its core. There is certainly a conversation to be had about how useful some of those techniques are in a modern environment, especially with competent strikers and grapplers, but much of the curriculum is not technically unworkable.
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>>32047
Its not really that intricate compared to judo.
Its just taught in a retarded way.
The moves are specifically selected like to prevent certain kinds of common compensations. Its trying to teach a specific set of body skills.
Once you figure out what the answer to the puzzle is, you can start to do the stuff.
The way its taught in nearly every school, you will never come to that realization - it will just spiral downward into increasingly inane technical details that don't matter.
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>>31753
you drank the cool aid
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>>32076
I don't think so. There are plenty of frauds,many of them quite obvious to a trained eye, and it doesn't give you skill at fighting on its own, but those static demonstrations and tests are based on a learnable skill.
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>>32096
A skill nobody has ever demonstrated outside of their own demonstrations with only their own people being part of the demonstration. It's magic tricks and delusions of people who really, really wish this was true. They wish so hard that when push comes to shove, they actually yield and convince themselves that it was something magical.
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>>32177
Whatever helps you sleep at night
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>>32181
In this case, it really does. Knowing that what you are training is actually useful, and helps realistically achieve your goals, is a great stress relief. One doesn't have to second guess, whether or not their training needs something, when alive training will give them immediate feedback.

Easier to sleep at night with all that extra guessing taken out of martial arts training.
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>>32177
A skill nobody has ever demonstrated outside of their own demonstrations with only their own people being part of the demonstration.

That is of course untrue, there are plenty of people who can do those tests in open forums. You can of course debate how useful such skills are in a more dynamic environment, and I certainly understand after all the fraudulent ki masters and the false promises of mystic powers from mind over muscle how many people are skeptical of anything unusual or esoteric. I think however if you go and interact with some of the more well regarded people teaching these things they, and there students can do all the push tests and other things.
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>>32200
Tell me names.
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>>32200
Post proof, or stop lying. This kind of snake oil selling is probably the worst part of this.
>There really is true practitioners you just have to find them
>This is all real, you just gotta find the right person
You are just driving more victims to these snake oil salesmen. People who, if they're unfortunate enough to believe you, will find themselves helpless in the moments of their lives where they need actual skills the most. Either post proof that this shit works, the masters who teach the shit working, or shut the fuck up.
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>>31702
I mean, it wasn't. Just a bit of fun cause they were available. It lasted all of like 45 seconds. My point was that the aikidokai was the one attacking the entire time, which is a good example that not all of us just stand there hoping you come give us a hug.

How would it go in an actual match? Not a clue. My instructor grew up getting into fights, but the guys a competitor, so he might just kick his ass.
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>>31972
I mean this is of course true, but they aren't doing "judo throws" or "wrestling locks", I also prefer simple takedowns to fancy stuff designed only for demonstration, Aikido has that too. Then again, I've never been a purist and my dojo tosses in whatever we can find, including resistance sparring, so maybe I can't call what I do "Aikido" in this context. Most people think of the purely demonstration stuff like Aikikai when they talk aikido, but noone thinks those techniques are for fighting with.
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>>32243
First off, don't demand information of me while accusing me of bad faith.
>People who, if they're unfortunate enough to believe you, will find themselves helpless in the moments of their lives where they need actual skills the most.
I never said that this is directly useful for self defense or even competition in most contexts In fact considering some of the time frames and effort required it probably is not worth pursuing for those contexts over more immediate and straight forward arts like judo or bjj. Its telling most of the people good enough to teach it are at least middle aged, which means it probably requires far too much time for most practical and immediate benefits at the very least. I have been throughout this thread measured in any recommendation beyond saying there are some guys who are really good at push tests. That is not the same as fighting, or even the same as limited rules grappling, absolutely not the same.

As for well regarded names there are plenty, Toby Threadgill, Dan Harden, Akuzawa Minoru, Tetsuzan Kuroda, Sam Chin, all teach varients of the stuff. As for proof, I would ask proof of what exactly? That the people pushing on them are not faking it? Cause I doubt I could ever prove that to your satisfaction, at least online. Perhaps if you met them or one of their students that would be a different matter. At let me be clear, I would never advise someone to sign up for an art where there teacher could not put up or shut up, and at least demonstrate a greater degree of skill at something then they themselves possess.
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>>32047
So I had an MMA fan ask me about what I thought was "useful" about Aikido since I actually spar, and then proceeded to get annoyed at me when I showed him that most of the stuff that "works" in martial arts is universal. Avoidance, basic striking, grappling principles, spatial awareness. Anything you do in specifics is just a "style". Being a grandmaster of Jujitsu technique will not stop you getting picked up and thrown by the bouncer that has 50lbs on you when you get into a brawl at the club. The correct answer to "what should I learn?" or "what martial arts are good?" is all of them, and then go get into fights and learn you also need combat experience and the ability to take a beating.
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>>32265
This sort of thing just seems like body positivity for martial arts. Maybe you can pry some decent fundamentals out of something like aikido or wing chun, but if you train judo or muay thai you'll also get the principles, probably faster due to alive training, and then a shitton of reps with techniques that are way more practical too. There are definitely martial arts that are more worth your time than others, at least if practicality in a fight is your goal.

Obviously if you get some deeper fulfillment out of an art that's more esoteric then cool, whatever, it's your life. But when I see people saying that all martial arts are good, it's about the practitioner, etc. That's just attempting to flatten the debate because they know that in a proper hierarchy, again as far as practicality goes, they're near the bottom.
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>>32348
ultimately, the instructors don't teach you. They just give you ideas.
In every discipline, you train you.
MMA stuff is for beginners who need their hands held. TMA stuff is for people who can figure things out on their own and already have somewhat of their own practice.
Its not for teaching basic body and mind skills like MMA is.
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>>32356
Nah your instructor should be teaching you. That's what you pay him for. Obviously you need to use your brain to apply and fully integrate what you learn. Thats true for everything. The only thing you TMAfags seem to get good at is creative excuse making. It sure as shit isn't fighting.
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>>32359
You can't even keep up your troll with that one LOL
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>>32363
I do not troll, I fling shit
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>>32364
same difference
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>>32356
As someone who has trained in both "modern" and "traditional" arts (a nearly meaningless distinction of there ever was one) I think your completely off the mark.

For one, teaching and coaching skill and styles can vary wildly.Ive trained with people in competitive arts were were not great teachers: they could point out certain problems you had, but not tell you how to fix them. People who succeeded were those athletically gifted enough to watch and imitate, which is ironically a very "traditional" way of learning. By the same measure Ive trained under people who could tell you exactly what was wrong and how to fix it. quality can vary.

It is true that some "traditional" arts favor that kind of watch and learn, steal the technique mechanic, but that certainly does not make them better, or for "smart people". It is a teaching style that in many ways resembles an old fashioned apprenticeship. A martial arts apprenticeship sounds nifty until you realize the teacher controlled the apprentice's entire life for years before they were given any serious responsibility. Since the topic is Aikido, Ueshiba's Uchideshi would wake up in the middle of the night to wait on him, they would carry his luggage, and when they were not doing chores for him he was throwing them around. Ueshiba did the same thing for his teacher Takeda. How many people doing "traditional arts" have that kind of relationship with their teacher today?

Finally there is the elephant it the room, results.TMA have a lot of interesting aspects and some real strengths that you do not typically find in more competition oriented arts, but when it comes to physical conditioning and ability to put up or shut up, your far more likely to find it in an art with a strong competitive aspect. Even the grandfather of the whole martial arts are not sport attitude: Donn Draeger was a judo man from what I've read considered judo more "real" than most of the traditional arts, at least in their present form.
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>>32374
For someone who thinks I'm completely off the mark, you sure did a lot of agreeing with me.
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>>32265
>aikido
>basic grappling principles

Don't make me laugh
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>>32385
You said this:
>MMA stuff is for beginners who need their hands held. TMA stuff is for people who can figure things out on their own and already have somewhat of their own practice.
Its not for teaching basic body and mind skills like MMA is.
I don't find that accurate for either TMA or MMA. Not in the whole at least. And the idea that MMA guys need their hands held is frankly ridiculous and insulting. Its hard for me to take someone who stands by that seriously.
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>>32404
And yet, you wrote an essay about how you agree with me except for that point.
Maybe you should go back to spreadsheets and algorithms, because human communication obviously isn't for you.
>>
>>32414
That point was about half your comment, which was also dripping with a contempt for MMA which I do not share.
>>
>>32420
Ok, I'll submit it to the complaint department.
>poster on 4chan cannot deal with expressive language. pls help.
There, you happy?
>>
face it guys, aikido kung fu wing chun etc are just cultural copes and power fantasies for weak small asians. chad asians who actually want to improve themselves do sparring martial arts. sparring karate muay thai mma etc
>>
>>32443
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOKv5UaZ1_w
xu xiaodong consistently stomps these proposed masters of proposed incredible martial art styles using basic mma and the entire country of china desperately copes in response
>>
>>32356
Holy shit what a retarded post. Train some different non tma to loose that bias and see that Aikido as stand alone martial art is practically worthless
>>
>>32385
>>32414
>>32424
Holy shit you are delusional
>>
>>32445
xu mostly fights CCP cozies. You wouldn't expect people whose main virtue is playing well to nepotism to be very good fighters.
To be narcisistic egolords, yes. To be people who apply themselves to rigorous training, no. That would defeat the point of nepotism.
>>
>>32454
>>32453
>Just ignore the words and read off my list of talking points
Is that the best you can do?
>>
>>32018
Don't practice Aikido, but it seems I touched a nerve.
>>
>>32513
I dont practice Hema but atleast im not making shit up online
>>
>>31969
Pffft, sure kiddo whatever.

HEMA nerds making fun of aikidoka is like the autistic kid in school making fun of the retard and reeks of the same desperation.
>>
>>32623
Where do you think you are?
>>
>>32265
Bruh don't be obtuse. Lets take a different example like Lyoto Machida. We know he is a complete mixed martial artist but we can point to the karate influence on his kicks, footwork, blitzing punches, foot sweeps etc. This is what that guy means what parts of aikido if any do you use for real ?
>>
>>32623
I take HEMA over your onions martial art any day
>>
>>31706
different person, but USA or not is completely irrelevant. the problem is the style, not the location or teaching.
>>
let's see how /aig/ looks like:
>school
>years of practice
>kyu/dan
>fav technique
>fav hombu teacher

I'll start
>aikikai
>10
>1dan
>hijikimeosae
>yokota
>>
>>32785
several. Orthodox aikikai are shit
Depends on when you start counting.
ranking is shit. A blackbelt means you have toddler level understanding of the basics. Show skill.
There are no techniques. There is body skill and there is flow. The techniques are emergent.
saying my favorite teachers would reveal my power level.
>>
>>32785
>>
I wish I could find a yoshinkan dojo near to me.
100 km around me i only find aikikai related clubs. I tried 3 and there weren't good.
>>
>>33684
Why not just do wrestling or judo?
>>
>>33684
have you tried both aikikai and yoshinkan? what would you say are the main differences?
>>
>>33687
I like aikido, at least as concept. Judo is great, judo is a fantastic soft martial art but judo is not an internal martial art.
>>33740
I didn't practice yoshinkan so I cannot tell the differences in first person but i watched videos, i read gozo books and talked with people who practiced it. The differences with aikikai are obvious: postures, atemis, the dynamic in general.
I did aikikai 7 years and there were a lot of things that were off.
>>
>>34090
I'm watching some material myself, but I wasn't able to pinpoint some features that truly distinguish it from the range of aikikai styles I've seen during stages, in particular concerning posture; I've seen anything between executing a technique while never fully extending one's arm, to having a leg span of twice/thrice the shoulder length during ikkyo and whatnot.
the thing that perhaps stands out the most to me is that the movement is broken up into sections, making the speed of the execution uneven and stiffening up the uke as a result of the change of pace when starting a section. this stiffness is worked around by using atemi, which instinctively induces a full body tension, so that the tori can abuse the moment of relaxation that follows to go on with the next section of movement.
I've seen a fair share of aikikai styles that really emphasize atemi too as a means of keep going with the technique when the uke stiffens up for some reason, but it's true that at the very least everyone is trying to keep the whole movement fluid and maintain an even rhythm.
does this match with your research into yoshinkan, and is this the reason why you've come to prefer this style? I'm curious because while I saw my good share of stuff while remaining in the context of aikikai, I've never come into contact with straight up different schools, except for an iwama-ryu man who was too old and stiff for people to really understand what he was doing
>>
>>31267
>Aikido
>extreme sports

You aikido niggas wish
>>
Anybody here doing "Nishio" aikido?

What's with all the striking?
>>
>>31357
Because Europeans defeated everyone else.
>>
>>31536
>Internal Power is real, get over it.
Protip: It's just biomechanics, you don't need eastern occultism for it. You just need someone to teach you or be autistic enough to try until you get the correct feeling.

Fajin, Yi, Soft-Hard and all that stuff was already known in Europe centuries ago, they just didn't mix it up with occultism. Much has been lost, but many of the old manuals on training are still available. Generally people simply don't understand what they're looking at because it's not called "This is the special secret you have to use" and often goes directly against modern teachings, though.

Tip: If you want to know how Xing Yi is supposed to work/look, watch old boxing until the 1930s or so.
>>
>>34222
>Much has been lost
Says who, and with what evidence?
>>
>>34222
Of course its biomechanics. Everything the human body is capable of ultimately boils down to body mechanics. But there is more than one way to train the body. Frankly speaking if your not doing exercise designed to enhance things like fajin, having someone show you how to do it is next to useless. Most of the teachers who became famous for these tricks trained alone for hours a day.

As for Europe I do think there was such knowledge,though I have no hard proof, but I think its more likely you would find it in old time strong man training routines than in boxing.
>>
>>34216
Striking was a part of Aikijujitsu, what the dude called Aikido in the early days.
I hear rumors that striking was removed because it was too easy to learn and prohibited eager students from investigating the more difficult stuff.
>>
>>34222
The mystical stuff is helpful though.
If you go, just move this muscle a little bit, no a little less, no a little less, you have a hard time being that very precise.
Or use this muscle a lot but this one about 40% of that, and use this muscle, but not this obvious one thats right next to it.
Forget doing it under pressure.

Instead you come up with a visualisation about the energy in your body, get the feel in your body and just train that.
Now you're just training one thing instead of training 30 different things at once and their relationships to each other.
>>
>>36612
Then why do Nishio students still learn striking? Every single throw has some sort of striking as part of it. "Hit him, and then throw him, or hit him more, until you can throw him" type of stuff.
>>
>>32356
>MMA stuff is for beginners who need their hands held. TMA stuff is for people who can figure things out
i dont think i've ever seen evidence of this being the case. of the available TMAs, aikido has some of the most bullshit techniques, full-stop. show me any example of aikido winning against a style that does proper alive sparring (bonus points for mixed martial arts).
>>
>>37264
nishio is trying to regain the original spirit of aikido before certain aspects became too over-emphasized.
>>
>>32506
Your points are still not making sense and show you didnt train in any martial art outside Aikido
>>
I find it funny that people obsess over effectiveness to begin with. of course if you're picking a martial art for self defense that would be the most important quality, but it's just as fine to take one up for sport/fitness/hobby purposes. this whole
>b-b-b-but X would lose against a MMA fighter
is the same as ridiculing, say, baseball because a baseball match consumes less calories than a swimming race and swimmers have better builds
>>
>>37823
This is fine but aikido and wing chun are usually advertised as self defense. You don't see anyone criticize capoeira or sumo wrestling like this, because they are not.
>>
>>37934
>This is fine but aikido and wing chun are usually advertised as self defense.
I agree that that's the general impression, and that there's surely some mcdojo that advertises as self defense, but this is not because the associations publicize themselves as such, but because they don't publicize themselves as anything, so people just go "it says it's not a sport, so it's self defense".
the underlying problem is that martial arts like these don't really serve a purpose that someone generally interested in martial arts might have; then again, they can't really answer to someone asking what they should take up your martial art for with something like "I don't know man, try it and see if it's fun for you", so what ends up happening is that at a local level individual instructors relay their personal motivations for practicing (and this is only to people who already came to take a look and maybe are taking a trial lesson, rare cases already), and at the association level they use vague descriptions hoping that the readers answer the above question themselves when they give their interpretation of it.
>>
>>32656
Right, because if you're going to look like a retard you want to sink extra money into it.
>>
>>37290
I've seen some evidence of people asserting aikido training winning against other stylists but the comments sections on all of the videos just move the goalpost and say it looks like shitty judo or ask why not just train BJJ and wrestling or some shit like that. It's like they can't reason out that in a down and dirty situation styles that have a common ancestry are going to look pretty damn similar until you slow down the footage and put a microscope on it.
>>
Aikido is very good for flashy fight choreography.
Not so much for real-world application.
My coach has a blackbelt in aikido and only teaches like one aikido technique because it's the only one he's ever been able to pull off in live sparring, and believe me he's tried.
>>
Can someone tell me what aikido is for? Reading this thread makes it seem like tai-chi in an hakama
>>
>>38783
Aikido doesn't usually look much like Taichi. Aikido is to put it simply a modern style of jujutsu, that tends to focus on very flowing motions and standing grappling. Many practitioners also claim aikido is only to be used defensively or to avoid harming others but as some of the comments above point out, that is in fact a false claim as far as the art's founder goes. It is a part of a larger family of schools stemming from Daito ryu Aikijujutsu: which claims to be many hundreds of years old but was most likely developed in the late 19th century. Where its creator: Sokkaku Takeda got his jujutsu is a matter of speculation, though it is known he was considered a very good swordsman and sumo wrestler in his youth, and was very active in martial arts circles.

The problem people have is that it has tended to do very poorly in competition, at least in recent years, when it first appeared its founder and some of his students were reported to have dealt with challenges rather often, but that does not seem to have carried over to most of the modern generation. Furthermore many practitioners offer nonsensical or anachronistic defenses of their art, though that has decreased somewhat in recent years as people within aikido itself have presented better historical information, silly arguments like that aikido is all about dealing with weapons still pops up.
>>
>>38753
Post the videos.
>>
>>37440
Was, mate.
He died some years ago. He never wanted to create a "different style" of aikido, always remained in the same organization, but "Nishio Aikido" is still different from everything else. So in the end, he basically did create a style of at least teaching aikido that is different, just without any of the bureaucracy and other dramatic hulabaloo that goes along with new styles.
>>
>>38752
I bet my ass that 90% of Hema guys have a better understanding of fighting then most pure Aikido guys- What you fail to understand is how flawed your martial art is. It fails as a sport for excersize and builiding up stamina, its techniques are flawed and its only a former shadow(apparently). Aikido seems to be good as a spirtual practice, paired with martial arts inspired movement to gain a sense of security
>>
>>39060
In reality, there was a new style of aikido created near the end of the founder's life by koichi tohei and the founder's son. As far as my studies go, this style is what everyone is taught nowadays, and is only similar to the original aikido in superficial ways. I think that nishio aikido and other 'splinter' groups probably contain essences of original aikido that have been completely lost in mainstream aikikai aikido-ballet.

>>38783
Its purpose is extremely highly variable and dependant on the practitioner and who they are training under.

>>37290
>aikido has some of the most bullshit techniques, full-stop.
"If it stops with technique, it has no real value. This was the education I received from O-Sensei." -Mitsugi Saotome
It seems like the founder of the art may not have disagreed with this narrow view.
>>
>>32785
Tenshinkai Viet Nam ( under Aikikai )
Almost 5
2 kyu
Non
Non
>>
>>39065
>I bet my ass that 90% of Hema guys have a better understanding of fighting then most pure Aikido guys
Then don't go to the casino anytime soon. For your own good.

>What you fail to understand is how flawed your martial art is
Not my martial art, retard, I'm just putting the other retards in their place just like I'd do to bronies who make fun of furries. Like I said earlier: autists making fun of downies.

Now go fuck yourself.
>>
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>>39244
>no favourite technique after 5 years
>>
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>>39097
The issue I keep coming back to when trying to be as fair-handed to aikido even from a historical perspective is that the pedagogy seems like it cannot be salvaged. I have heard all of the quotes from Ueshiba O-Sensei like, "My martial art is 90% atemi" and the one you wrote, but it's just almost never translated into any aikido I've seen anywhere.

The one experience I had was an aikido seminar at a community college campus led by a teacher who was a boxer, a wrestler, and a taekwondoin in his youth before starting aikido his late 30s. He drew this distinction between "nice aikido" and what the techniques were theoretically supposed to do or look like in a real life setting with atemi and coercion applied. Great stuff, but it just doesn't seem like there's effective teaching going on if they don't train approximate enough to that. As much as I tire of the "aliveness" term, that's what's always absent.

It's like in karate if we just do kata or paired drills without bunkai, randori, and (contact) kumite. There also just doesn't seem to be a big enough movement to "fix" aikido like there has been in karate. If anything, the establishment in the transmission and preservation of aikido are determined not to dig deep and resuscitate O-Sensei's "finishing school of martial arts" aikido.

Pic semi-related (it's my only aikido image).
>>
>>39324
Go fuck yourself first
You prob. never even sparred kek
>>
>>39339
Had I never sparred or competed a day in my life, it would be preferable to the spastic chimpanzee shit that HEMA autists call "sparring." Nuff said.
>>
>>39338
>The issue I keep coming back to when trying to be as fair-handed to aikido even from a historical perspective is that the pedagogy seems like it cannot be salvaged.

There are undoubtedly problems with aikdo's pedagogy, A lot of the problems come from Daito ryu. Takada Sokaku probably had PTSD or something similar. He was an extremely paranoid man, and as a result he would never let any of his students throw him, the exact opposite of the "traditional" teaching model. Furthermore, he only ever taught the key elements of his art to his favorites, about half a dozen people including Ueshiba.

Daito ryu tends to have less of those rounded, gentile techniques. Meik Skoss once discussed how back when he was training aikido under Kisshimaru, he and a select group were taken back and taught the harsher version of the techniques, in case someone tried to challenge their dojo. At that time challengers would still show up on occasion. This was only for people at the level were they were expected to be running their own school at some point in the future.

So the transmission has in some ways been garbled. Bad translations, an emphasis on recreational and peaceful training, a real disconnect with the solo training regime Ueshiba and Sokakku used. Some people who trained with Ueshiba's direct students or cross trained in daito ryu still have a clue as to what was taught in those days, but in general those people are outside the mainstream.
>>
>>39342
So what you're basically saying is that everything that might have allowed aikido to be schooled in a way that kept it up to speed with 21st century developments in martial arts is lost media. That's almost as depressing as the state of Okinawan kobudo.
>>
>>39795
>So what you're basically saying is that everything that might have allowed aikido to be schooled in a way that kept it up to speed with 21st century developments in martial arts is lost media.

So not entirely. First lets add some caveats to the idea of aikido even in its best form being up to speed. Daito ryu, which aikido is an offshoot of, was developed in an era were both pugilism like boxing and karate, and ground fighting like in bjj were not major factors you had to train to deal with. There was some newaza, but there was a strong cultural bias to saying on your feet in a fight. Striking like we know it was rare. the atemi in jujutsu is meant to be used in grappling, not as it's own skill set. So in those ways aikido is somewhat unsuited for modern empty handed fighting.

As for the rest of the stuff, a good deal of it survived, just not in mainstream aikido. Daito ryu schools still have a lot of the solo training curriculum Ueshiba used, though he did make some personal adjustments the key concepts and material is carried over from the style he studied. However most branches of Daito ryu don't share their inner methods publicly. Ueshiba also taught some of this stuff to his senior students, some of which was passed down to people who are still alive, and there has been some effort to spread those teachings.

A bigger thing that is lost and can't be recovered is the martial culture of early Showa Japan. Sumo was just a common pastime. Ueshiba students used to do it as a warm up. His students also used to pick fights on the street to test themselves. They were taught kendo. Dojo's also received challengers, On top of that Ueshiba and many marital artists were wrapped up with the military in one way or another. Ueshiba taught in all sorts of military and paramilitary venues, including some less savory groups. Ueshiba's son made a concerted effort to clean up Aikido. so pretty much all those elements good and bad are gone.
>>
>>39340
It baffels me that you think Hemas combat ability with alive training (most sparring videos look a bit autistic but ok to me who doesnt really practice with weapons) is worse then aikidos choreographed bullshit. Aikido has less to offer then some mcdojo karate joints
>>
>>39340
>People who fight are worse at it than people who dont
lol, imagine practicing aikido
>>
>>31701
>i say this as a student of bjj. unless you've sparred at close to full intensity
BJJ rarely does this themselves, and they get mad when new students do just that
>>
>>40391
Spazzing out white belts going against higher belts are great. Spazzing out white belts who get all assblasted because they "lose" are worst. Spazzing out white belts going against other white belts is an injury risk because they don't know what the fuck they're actually doing. People told you to chill because you were one of the latter two.
>>
>>40362
People who call HEMA sparring "fighting" are worse at it than people who don't pick up the bad habits, yes. Exactly the case, anon, thanks for understanding.
>>
>>40461
What bad habits would that be?
>>
>>40472
He doesnt know because he doesnt fight, with or without weapons
>>40461
Tell me from what authority you say that on aikifag
>>
>>40461
This is some serious mental gymnastics
>>
>>39342
>>39338

Haha, who are you that you know this much?
And that you're so well spoken? Its amazing.
>>
>>40837
The big three Japanese arts: kendo, aikido and judo have an almost constant stream of new translations and historical research coming out for people who are into that stuff.

Unsurprisingly, the official histories that are given on websites or passed from teacher to student are often horribly inaccurate, in some cases probably deliberately so.
>>
>>40837
I am >>39338. A few years ago while studying the history of karate after reading some of Jesse Enkemp's material, I went down a few sidetracked rabbit holes into the histories, styles, and modern practice of other martial arts. I got autistically invested in the tall tales and outright politically motivated lies in the Korean martial arts for awhile but also tried to trace back just where aikido came from and if it was ever studied as an applicable self-defense system.

I live in a martial arts desert with only daycare krotty and BJJ McGyms around me, so sadly most of my interest was restricted to solo practice and reading until I recently found a Muay Thai gym.
>>
>>40258
I'll bet there's a lot of simple concepts in life that baffle you.
>>40472
Watch a vid. Any vid.
>>40593
Again it's hilarious you have to cope by pretending I'm an aikido practitioner. Once more, because I know you have no idea what you're talking about and just make shit up as you go along hoping you won't get outed, I just can't abide losers trollshielding by picking on other losers, and HEMA retards dumping on aikishitters reminds me of bronies thinking they're better than furries when, no, you're both losers and you both get bullied.
And my "authority" is that I'm not a nigger with a room temperature IQ unlike yourself.
>>
>>41104
You seem to know more about bronies and furries then martial arts though
>>
>>41104
>hurr durr hema bad, aikido good
>"how?"
>I dont have to explain shit to you! Watch a video and then guess whatever im talking about!
>Also I dont practice hema or aikido
>something something bronies and furries
>ur a nigger
holy fucking autism lmfao
>>
>>41104
Mate, you used more time to cry than it would have taken to list bad habits you've seen.
>>
>>41104
2/10 autism fit
>>
>>41124
I know more than the smooth brains replying to me about pretty much everything, actually.
>>41144
>Well shit, this guy's making a fool of me. Better call autism and flounce.
I accept your concession.
>>41159
Not really, naw.
>>41336
I'm just sitting here smiling, awaiting with monk-like patience for somebody to prove that HEMA isn't just aikido for /pol/ larpers. Ain't much happening besides them embarrassing themselves for my amusement, tho.
>>
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>>41340
>I'm just sitting here smiling, awaiting with monk-like patience for somebody to prove that HEMA isn't just aikido for /pol/ larpers. Ain't much happening besides them embarrassing themselves for my amusement, tho.
>>
>>41340
>I accept your concession.
concession of what? You wont explain what your beef is you dumb sperg.
>>
>>41340
You've now been childishly crying your importance twice instead of listing the bad habits that would actually support your integrity as an informed speaker.
>>
>>41340
Back to /b/ or whatever troll board you came from
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAhQk_7MDg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FuH2Rhv6lA&t=235s
>>
Aikido is gay and for fags
>>
>>41998
haha aikido guy has zero body connection
>>
>>40391
not in my experience. the only time people get annoyed at "going all out" is when someone has no control, and it just becomes flying limbs with no real intent/purpose. nobody wants to keep getting elbowed in the face by some noob who can't control how their body moves properly.
>>
>>42146
>self control
>going all out

pick one.
>>
>>42150
>what are learned movement patterns
Imagine going all out in a boxing match and just starting to spazz out because suddenly you can't go all out and have control at the same time.

White belts going all out just spazz around. Because they don't know what they're doing.
>>
>>42265
Or because they don't like the pace and explosiveness former wrestlers and judoka are used to training at
>>
>>42266
>>40399
>>
>>42265
>>42266

I stand by my statement.
You don't even have the ability to let go enough to go all out. And then you lecture me about learned movement patterns.
Skateboards get speed wobbles, flutes get overblown. Its a fact of physics.

Either you don't have the ability to go all out, or your energy output is extremely far lagging your technical skill.

Most of fighting practice is flirting with the edge between maximum you can do before the resonance of the system goes out of control, and keeping a little in reserve so you have wiggle room.

Don't give me this bullshit about how you forgot how to get your body to go all out, so that means you are actually going all out for real now.
>>
>>42377
>or your energy output is extremely far lagging your technical skill.
>the resonance of the system

He does beej. Their primary attacks are 1)falling over and 2)laying on the ground
>>
>>42377
Spazzing out and having ability to go full throttle are complete opposites. You spazz out when you have no ability.
>>
>>42395
Way to completely ignore the post you are responding to.
>>
>>42377
Why do you continue to ramble on about white belt
>>
>>42401
nice argument. you really knocked that one out of the water, both with impeccable evidence and savage wit.

There is no comparison.

The dude's right. Just because you can channel your energy better and in more circumstances doesn't mean that you're not a spaz at full energy.
Going all out= spaz.
its just true. Its obvious. Its the fundamental thing you're trying to avoid doing when fighting.
Never go all out.
>>
>>42458
The fuck are you on about? Christ this really is a containment thread for Aikido tards
>>
>>42521
Name your skill. (desu I doubt you have any skills)
>>
>>42627
6 years of Shotokan Karate
3 years of Kickboxing
1 year judo
1 year bjj
i still practice all the styles (atleast before rona happend)

Listen
i dunno what your problem is but the way you argument only gets you (You)s. And no going all out is not really spazzing if you have atleast somewhat of body control.
>>
>>42521
Its like you're bragging about being stupid
>>
>>42687
Because i critize a thread thats only been one big shitfest? Whoa you got me there smartass
>>
>>42692
nope. Not that.
>>
>>42695
Your retarded





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