>>166676
That's quite big

>>166679
4U

>>166685
If I pulled that beard, would he die?

Why do practioners of karate give me a strong plebbit vibe? Karate seems redundant nowadays no?

>isn't the best for self defense
>watered down techniques
>meme belt system
>westerns abiding by japanese trading seems cucked

Why not just learn kickboxing?

>>166699
Because it's not Karate? You just have a specific goal with martial arts and is cinfused why others wouldn't have the exact same one as you. But there are other good reasons they might prefer karate
>they enjoy the training method
>they like kata
>they're interested in olympic fighting
>they like japanese culture
>They just simply think a white kimono & black belt looks cool af (and they're right)
>they have a Karate dojo nearby that's generally better than the kickboxing equivalents.
Not everyone is looking to minmax their chances in a Kickboxing ring or care about muh sel-defense meme.

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>>166686
It would be extremely painful

>>166699
>westerns abiding by japanese trading seems cucked
It’s a Japanese martial art tradition. Go learn boxing if you hate Japs.

>>166699
Because karate isn't just a sport, it's an art, it has it's own style.

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I like the ungloved sparring and focus on autistic detail more than arts streamlined for sport fighting like kickboxing. I'd probably get beaten up by a thai fighter but I'll take that risk to do a cooler martial art.

>>166711
You go around fighting under Lumpinee Stadium rules or try to "dojo storm" Muay Thai gyms? No? I wouldn't worry about getting beat up by a Thai Fighter, then.

Karate always lost, prove me wrong

>>166716
Everything loses to freestyle wrestling

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>>166820
And this is actually what Max Dedik says. I watched his video when he remembers end of 90's-beginning of 00's, how he did karate, what he think etc. He remembers every striker of every martial art was arguing on forums and in IRL what style is better, and no one cared about freestyle wrestling. Everyone thought that wrestlers are weakest fighters - you punch him in the head and he falls, end of story. The reality turned out to be completely, completely opposite.
Max Dedik is 4th dan, IKO and IFK world champ, fought some kickboxing professional matches, one of Alexander Volkov coaches.

>>166822
Ultimately I think it boils down that learning good enough strike defense as a grappler is much easier than learning good enough grapple defense as a striker.

>>166716
Karate is too strong to win

>>166854
Karate already won when you weren’t looking

>>166854
Are Kenganbros truly everywhere?

>>167087
Kengan fucking sucks

>>167124
Nobody that reads it would disagree with that statement

>>166542
>...... you should skip this and do kyokushin lol.
Non meme question, but what exactly does Kyokushin offer that I couldn't get in MT? From what I can tell the everyday training and fighting style seems very similar. Only thing I can think of is no head and face damage in Kyokushin, so it's safer.

I'm asking because I have a very good MT gym (professional fighters train there) nearby that offers classes every single day throughout most of the day, and they're quite a bit cheaper than all the karate dojos I've visited, no matter the style. There's a lot more people practicing MT in Brazil than Karate, so the talent pool to compete would be larger there as well.

With karate dojos that focus on Kata or WKF style competitions at least I know I'd get a unique experience, but with Kyokushin it just looks lie it'd be MT, but safer and with less people to train and compete.

>>167229
Sounds like you are more inclined to MT. Its also a very good style you cant do much wrong with so just go with that if you that interests you more. Kyokushin and Karate by extension focus way more of basics, stances and Kata. MT focuses more on application of basics and sparring which also often results in better fighting ability right off the bat. While this sounds like Karate is the worse option, this sharpening of the basics is something i really learned to appreciate over the years that you often dont have at that kinda volume in MT. But a good MT place will also drill the basics into you. But overall what it comes down to is what you enjoy more. MT also suffers more under try hards from my expierence then Karate (at least in the west). Kyokushin and MT are espically similar in cmfighting concepts so just go with the option that seems the most fun for you.

>>167233
I honestly would prefer Karate of any sort really, I'm a weeb at heart and have no problem admitting to that'scontributingto ny decisions. Besides, I work in finance in the poshest area of the country, so I can literally get fired from showing up too often with face damage, not to mention if my ability to work gets impaired from brain damage. BUT I also just managed to negotiate with my company for them for foot the bill for my master's programme, so my schedule will be pretty tight over the next 2 years years and the sheer convenience of being able to train whenever I can over having a fixed number of weekly classes I might be forced to skip every once in a while due to my studies is making me hesitant.

>>167236
Then i would choose Karate and visit that Mt place whenever you cant go to Karate. If you talk to the Mt instructor and be honest about your predictement, maybe he will be understandable? Offer him to pay him a retainer fee every time you visit, something like that.
I had a similar situation with Bjj some time back.

>>167239
Didn't think about that, so I'll try it out. I honestly got a bit freaked out by how cheap the MT gym was and got talking with the owner about how he made money that way. Sure he had A LOT of students coming in all day, but it shouldn't have been enough to keep the lights on. Apparently he lowballs the shot out of the fees to attract talent and makes money by taking a nice cut out of the pro earnings his top athletes make. Lot's of poor guys dying for a chance to claw their way out of the slums around here, so that way everyone wins in his eyes. Since in addition to the MT (which are their main style and have classes all day long) they also offer boxing, BJJ and MMA classes he probably makes a nice amount from pros competing on the state and regional level.

>>167229
Kyokushin is has more options at the sort of in-between range that's not quite in the pocket and not quite clinching. They can also throw things at different angles than normal. It's also naturally bare knuckle so it translates other bare knuckles/small glove arts.

>>167258
>They can also throw things at different angles than normal
You mean from not having to work around gloves when someone is defending? I'm not sure what that means, but it's pretty interesting.

my karate is the most powerful of them all

>>167229
6 months of muay thai = 10 years of the hardest kyokushin

>>167229
The only thing kyokushin offer is bare fist conditioning, both via exercises and actual fighting.
I'm not from US and I heard MT in USA sucks ass and it's just not tough at all, while kyuokushin is universally brutal everywhere.

>>167236
If you are weeb do kyokushin cause it has katas that tied deeply to japanese culture. Also you will be somewhat comparable to MT fighter in fight sense and can transition to MT later. Lot of black belts combine their kyokushin training with kickboxing, I think it's good and very natural thing

>>167396
>Also you will be somewhat comparable to MT fighter in fight sense and can transition to MT later
I don't care about ring fighting honestly, the pay is kinda ass unless you're at the very highest levels and I'm honestly too old to get into that even if I wanted to. I just want something in which I can fight for hell of it, perfect my techniques and hopefully not get clocked in the head so hard I won't be able to keep working in my field anymore. I may detest finance, but it pays well.

>>167350
bullshit

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Any thoughts on wado ryu?
Is it really useful in a non-point randori or in a non compliance fight?
I am not asking for a "too deadly for you" MA, just a style that prepares you for an average skirmish.

>>167514
Anything that focuses on you keeping on your feet, at least simple stand up grappling and means either punch or throw someone hard will be good for self defense. WR technically fits that, but the actual quality will depend on the dojo. Do you have experien with other martial arts? I think having a baseline would help you feel out how good the WR dojo you have in mind actually is.

>>167514
Kyokushin and it's offshoots is the only good style of karate

>>167517
No.

>>167519
>fart

>>167517
Points karate is useful as a supplementary art even if it's not the best for preparing you for a real fight. There have been successful MMA fighters who cross-trained in it and said it was useful like Henry Cejudo and the Pitbull brothers.

>>167596
Ok, I agree. Their footwork and distance management is really good.

>>166676
Navaro and his current coach, Sensei Dedik are beasts. Had the pleasure of visiting the dojo a couple of times

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>>167136
I read Kengan and it's better than Baki

>>167395
In my experience Kyokushin in Europe is a bit soft, US is a bit better since people actually spar.
Russian dojos just hurt drifters for sport

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>>167517
As someone who's done Kyokushin since 2006, yes and no.
No style has all of the answers, but Kyokushin equips you with the best foundation to grow into a good all-rounder.
No one will be able to outwork you or score an effective body hit, and once you learn how to sneak a lead leg jodan mawashi geri from under a jab you will be everyone's least fav sparring partner

>>167647
Sumo Dou was thematically good but with poor execution until the end fights. Kengan has been a 200 chapters long trainwreck that only ever gets worse each week.

To keep it on topic: banning dogi grabs in Kyokushin was a bad response to judokas cheesing the ruleset to get half points, just like ir was a bad response from Judo to banning leg throws to keep people from just doing a single leg for an advantage and then stalling. If you don't want your styles fighters to get cheesed by people doing something not emphasized on the syllabus you should instead develop new training methodologies to patch that hole in your game. Most Judo throws have analogues in the Okinawan traditions, so it's not like you'd be really stepping outside the boundries of your martial art. Kyokushin is supposed to mean "ultimate truth" and you don't reach that by ignoring your own core elements just because at the moment you're not that good at them.

>>167647
Kengan is a fucking insult to the reader at this point. Its bad when Plebbit and 4channel both agree that the nanga has become garbage

>>167694
In my experience Judo and JJ throw game is a lot more sophisticated.
Didn't IKO-1 make dogi grabs and throws tournament legal a few years back?

>>167654
>No style has all of the answers
Style should not have all the answers, it is impossible, style should be specialized. I don't need some shitty goju ryu with three and halve shitty non working throws and some cringe palm strikes, if want throws I go to judo or wrestling, if I want punches - I'll choose something with punch specialization.

>>167724
>In my experience Judo and JJ throw game is a lot more sophisticated
Judo goes without saying, JJ will depend heavily on the practicioner. Anyway, my point is encouraging karatekas to become better at standup grappling would be better than simply gimping the fighters' ability to grapple properly.

>>167694
Not only grabs and grappling concepts. Kyo originally had daito ryu techniques and internal training from taikiken.
The first kyokushin was a really good package. But weapons, it had EVERYTHING.
Suddenly it was like kyo believed its own advertising
>WE ARE THE STRONGEST KARATE
>WE ARE BADASS
And then it became a parody of itself with such stupid kumite: a real display of will (no one doubt about it) and brute force but zero technique, zero control of space, zero martial knowledge.

>>167801
The narrow niche of sports kumite is cringe, no argument there.
Max Dedik's guys compete everywhere and kick everyone's ass.
People forget that your instructor is a larger determining factor in the quality of your training than the lable on your gi

>>167801
>zero technique, zero control of space, zero martial knowledge
Try knocking people out with a roundhouse from clinch range, then tell me how unskilled high level kyo karatekas are.

>>167801
LMAO, typical beginner mindset
>to have le ultimate martial art, let's mix everything with less rules possible, how is it gonna work? I don't know
Also
>stupid kyokushin kumite
>zero technique
And from here I got it - you are retarded

>>167396
I visited a Kyo dojo today, it's near the physical location of tlmy company's office so I could train there after work, I hadn't thought about that yet because I work from home, but I do have the freedom to go to the office on my own.

I thought it was pretty alright, the shihan was pretty /fit/ for a middle aged dude and the students were a mix with at least a handful of adults in shape and looking committed, one of them was a brown belt and looked like he competed from the discoloured patch on the dogi's back. They had quite a few trophies and medals on the walls and the place fucking reeked of sweat, which is a good sign. They also had a lot of heavy and technique bags, as well as a makiwara and a ring for fighting (they also offer kickboxing classes there on some days of the week, though the place's owner is the shihan and Kyo is their focus). Receptionist was pretty cute too.

They tried to sell me their own equipment, which is a usually a red flag for me, but the gear was quality and slightly below market rates from what I can see. Something that bothered me a bit is that they offer fighting for fitness classes inside the dojo, but I'm not sure if it's their business or just something they rent out the place for. Either way they didn't try to hustle that as actual fighting skills and the Kyo part itself seemed legit enough, they had pictures of all their black belts and they looked to be at least 10 of them, and they operate under one of the major Kyo organisations, but I can't tell which. The logo was that white circle with a red shuriken looking thingy, but I believe there's more than one organisation using that, right?

It looked decent enough, it's fairly affordable and kinda convenient if I start going to the office instead of working from home.

>>168066
Kyokushin its the best karate

>>168071
Maybe, maybe not. I don't need the best, just good enough, the rest is up to me.

Why does old Shotokan kumite look so much more intense and fucked up? Why does olympic kumite look so gay where you win when you get knocked out?
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy5IixR7X7c&t=37s

>>168619
> Old School.

Because they were mainly doing Karate as FIGHTING sports as an Japanese alternative to the western boxing.

>>167813
If they were any good at fighting they would be able to fight in other sports
They can't because they aren't

>>168619
Different sport rules. Ruleset creates martial art, not collection of techniques

>>168637
Ofcourse you are wrong, because by your logic boxing has 0 technique because pure boxer cant fight in MMA. Technique is the best way to apply strength, nothing more.

>>168641
nah boxing definitely has technique to it, head movement, defensive parrying, footwork
none of that in kyokushin which is just a toughness contest. But even then a boxer isn't under the illusion that he'd do well against a kickboxer or something, kyokuconmen think they're as good as muay thai because allegedly 60 years ago they won 2/3 matches against literal whos. The fact thats the only example that keeps getting brought up is even more pathetic

a boxer would to better in MMA though if he's able to stick to a gameplan where he controls range and hits stiff 1 2s just like strickland did
the range at which kyokushin "fights" would get absolutely bodied by grapplers
unlike every other combat sport its unique in that it has effectively zero applicable crossover into MMA, it has nothing worthwhile in the entire art. Anything it does something else is better at

>>168619
Because the Olympic Committee has made its goal to wreck every martial art it touches.

>>168645
How did you come up with such a retarded conclusion?

>>168690
they can't fight. Wrestlers don't take kyokushin lessons when they transition to MMA, they take boxing lessons
B-BUT GSP!
was good because of his aggressive wrestling, as far as striking goes he got KO'd by a terminal manlet jiujitsu guy of all people
I was just talking to serra yesterday actually, I always forget how fucking tiny he is

>>168704
The reason why wrestlers don't learn a complicated kick-striking art is because they already got a solid ground on to which to add basic punches for a stand up game improvement, boxing is simple, 1-2 followed by a hook, nothing much else you have to figure out for it as a wrestling guy, strikers have problems adapting to MMA if they aren't open minded about grappling techniques.

>>168645
>this MA has no thechnique because their fighters """unable""" to fight in the other MA (whatever that means)
>B-BUT THIS MA WHOSE FIGHTERS ALSO CAN'T FIGHT IN ANOTHER MA HAS TECHNIQUE BECAUSE...... *wall of text*
I don't think Andy Hug was relearning kick technique from taekwondo or something to fight in K1, he clearly used what he learned in kyokushin. You are obviously retarded, please take pills

>>168704
Fighters don't take greco roman wrestling lessons when they transition to MMA, they take grappling/freestyle wrestling lessons. Now imagine saying greco roman wrestling doesn't have technique

>>168771
Judo is even better example.

>>168704
Most take MT lessons. I would attribute this to Kyokushin just being more exotic then MT or espically Boxing

>>168797
Karate, even Kyokushin, is a martial art and has several elements that aren't supposed to quickly translate into fighting ability. MT, Kickboxing, Boxing, etc. are combat sports stripped out of most practices that don't make you good at fighting in a ring with training regimens geared towards churning out competent strikers fast. It's obvious why people looking into MMA avoid Karate, they don't have several years to dedicate themselves to it, usually they have just a couple years, maybe even just a few months.

>>168803
These are factors too but i still would attribute the exoticness/aviableness as the most common reason why its not such a common art in MMA plus that tournaments are often no head punches

>>168811
Head punches aren't an issue desu, they're easy to learn how to deal with well enough if your base is already solid, probably gonna take a few months of dedicated practice to get down for someone looking to transition. I think it's mainly a time investment thing. In one year you can make someone dedicated a boxer that can fight professionally, but in one year you won't make a Kyo guy that can even compete in tournaments on the regional level.

It's funny how there are 2 karate threads actively going right now and both have devolved into kyos desperately trying to justify themselves

W-we're the s-s-strongest! S-stop making fun of us!!!

>>168828
I'm on both of those threads and I don't see anyone claiming Kyokushin is the strongest martial art.

Please provide the evidence that backs up your claim.

>>168828
You have to go back

>>168646
>Because the Olympic Committee
It is self-inflicted damage. The world federation is destroying any martial trait in pursuit of being an Olympic SPORT. And the sad and comical thing is that it is not even an Olympic sport and it is difficult for it to become one.
It is killing karate in exchange for nothing.

>>168828
They literally are because no other karate style its that autistic over fighting and strength

>>168619
I used to look down on Shotokan until I read up on how Kokushikan University allowed face punches (bare knuckle btw). Unfortunately, there were too many covered-up incidents of students getting brutalized. Even foreigners.

I'm all for having a sport version of Karate so long as it doesn't seriously injure or kill its participants. But it also can't be a ballet; they have to let them strike, throw, sweep, clinch, and trap at full force too.

>>169257
>they have to let them strike, throw, sweep, clinch, and trap at full force too
Such sports already exist, if you create another one copy of that, two things happen:
1) either no one will care about it, small amount of students, low rivalry
2) or no one will train for them by studying karate, sportsmen will learn boxing, wrestling, bjj etc on the side.
See kudo and combat sambo. I'm from post USSR country and despite all memes combat samboists who compete study boxing and grappling additionally (and they are usually already wrestler or sport samoists). Same with kudo.

>>168770
Andy trained in boxing under ex-champ Akinobu Hiranaka to prepare for K-1. He along with other Kyokushin and Seidokaikan fighters also had to cross-train in Muay Thai to deal with the clinch. But kicking-wise, Andy had it all. I wish I could axe kick like him.

>>169266
No surprise since kicking is the most powerful part of kyokushin and kicking is big part of kickboxing. But kicking is small part of mixed arts where wrestling and grappling take huge part and often become much much more important. Mixed martial artists can go well with just boxing and wrestling/grappling, without good kicking. Karate is bad base for such sports and probably will never be.

>>169269
Lucien Carbin begs to differ. I don't like most karate styles, but Kyokushin is legit and Carbin says that he recommends Kyokushin as a very good foundation for Muay Thai. Kyokushin fighters are tough as fuck and can take the kicks and knees from any stadium ranked Nak Muay as well as dish it out. Their obvious weakness is not dealing with face punches and elbows obviously though in its early conception, Oyama's students would wrap towels around their hands and beat the shit out of each other or use boxing gloves. And Kyokushin tournaments used to allow grabbing the gi and allowing continued knees.

And yeah cross-training is the whole point of MMA, you blend other styles to fill in your gaps. There's no shame in that. Same goes for karateka that become kickboxers.

>>169271
If a large amount of your training is based around getting tough so you can take hits you're basically making an admission that your martial art sucks, the whole point is to take as little damage as possible
And not only that but you can only condition superficial targets anyway. you can't condition your chin or your brain, you can't condition your liver, you can't condition your perineal nerves, you can't condition your solar plexus and diaphragm

BUT I CAN HANDLE THE PAIN!
it's not about pain, targeting these areas is doing neurological damage. People don't go down because it hurts people go down because they're having critical electrical impulses interrupted

This idea of body conditioning is operating under the same misguided thoughts as bullshit Kung fu iron body training

Ironically with all this conditioning you have never seen more people crumple to body shots than in kyokushin matches because instead of having fundamentally sound defense they just stand there and take body shots

>>169281
I agree that standing there and tanking shots is retarded. I prefer to evade and parry than getting blasted in the face or body. At some point, you will take damage so it's best to toughen up your body AND hone your defense and elusiveness.

>itt pajeets who have never trained any form of karate arguing with pajeets who watched a few videos about shinken shobu online
Go and train kyokushin, find the answer for yourself.