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>>142264

>>142264
I don't get it. Do you even train? Why the hate?

>>142267
Its a failed meme from this anti bjj autist.

Seems like its time for another BJJihad.

>>142267
A lot of martial arts enthusiasts and teachers like to talk about how much stronger some of their other competitors are by talking about how much they 'got humbled' which is a black slang for being beaten or losing.

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>>142276
It's also a way of saying it while keeping your ego intact.

Where I live there is no other grappling gyms/dojos aside of BJJ, and pretty much every BJJ gym comes with MMA classes

>>142281
you should move

>>142267
BJJ guys often have a strange obsession with humility and a distinct way of bringing it up all the time, but the black guy part is just /pol/ cuckolding fetish emerging yet again.

>>142276
>how much they 'got humbled' which is a black slang for being beaten or losing
That's not black slang, that's just a standard English expression.

>>142264
i love bugsport

>>142264
Dont be rude

>>142264
>do judo
>wrestle some bjj guy
>throw him down and pass guard
>let him up
>"WELL ACKTUALLY GUARD IS A NEUTRAL POSITION SO WE WERE EVEN"
>"but I passed your guard?"
>"OI BRUV I WAS ABOUT TO LOCK UP THE SNAPDRAGON SUSPENDER DELUXE REACH AROUND YOU WERE FALLING RIGHT INTO MY TRAP!"
>"ok"
and that's the day I learned bjj was gay

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdGyJJT71Vw&t=0s

>>146012
What kills BJJ purists in MMA is its de-emphasis of the takedown. The problem with grappling in general is that it's sequence of events that must happen in order to win a fight is longer. First, you have to grab hold of the guy, then you have to that into taking them down, then once you're on the ground, you have to secure your dominant position, then once you have that you go for your finish - whether that's GnP or a submission.

BJJ guys just can't threaten to take people to the ground. When someone is scared of a takedown, it makes your striking better; when someone is worried about your striking because the takedown threat distracted them, it's easier to take them down. When all you have a shitty guard pull, you're a heavy bag like Kron Gracie.

What most other grappling arts get right is the emphasis on the takedown - because in the grand scheme of things, it's a more important skill. You can always just hit someone once you've got them down.

>>142264
I remember watching the bjj people rolling around at my gym, and these 2 dudes totally wanted to have sex.
>smaller black dude and bigger black dude rolling
>smaller black dude implies he felt the other dudes boner
>more gay comments from both of them that confirmed it
>after the roll the black dude was laying on his stomach with his ass facing the other dude
>white dude staring at his ass
This is exactly why I don't want to roll with these weird ass gay bjj people (besides my torn meniscus)

>>146033
I meant bigger white guy

>>146011
Lmao and its certainly not a neutral position when you’re getting bombed in the face by a guy that weighs 225

>>146027
It never had takedowns to begin with
Just more gracie lies "I modified judo to make it work for a smaller person"
My nigga kano was 5'2", if the techniques arent working for you its because you're doing them wrong not because the techniques are bad

But that's the result when your brother drops out at blue belt and then teaches you everything you know and you manage to convince a bunch of drooling apes that have never seen wrestling before that you're some kind of grand master

Just stand up was always a meme but its true, bjj has absolutely no answer for it
It only works when both parties agree they're going to fight on the ground now

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The good thing about jewjitsu is that you need make memes about it to make it look cringe, while in case if jewdo you just need to look at the rules

>>146054
I do both Judo and BJJ and although I hate the IBJJF, at least they seem to be going the path of making more stuff legal (heel hooks) in their rule changes, compared to the IJF just constantly banning whatever new innovation shows up. Doesn't really make much of a difference to me in BJJ anyway since I only compete in comps that allow neck cranks.

I agree with the hatred of lazy half-ass guard playing that a lot of hobbyist BJJ guys engage in, but it's ignorant to act like that's all there is. That idea becomes even less relevant if you start discussing no-gi jiu jitsu, where wrestling (although at a mediocre level) is nearly a mandatory skill.

People are always sharing the shittiest examples of BJJ in MMA (butt scooting Kron), but not Mighty Mouse, Damien Maia, Charles Oliveira, etc.

>>146043
>Just stand up was always a meme but its true, bjj has absolutely no answer for it
This is actually kind of accurate. Craig Jones is adamant about teaching the skill of standing up or stopping people from standing up. My gym has fully bought into this concept and it's changing all of our games (lots of turtle to standing, lots of wrestling leg-rides, more aggressive passing and guard play)

Everyone in this thread should just find a good no-gi gym and stop larping as a martial arts expert. Any legit black belt would agree that wrestling is an issue in BJJ right now

>>146078
Nogi isnt even bjj, it's a different sport entirely
Bjj is a gi art like judo, that's why the gi is the qualifier "no gi", as though the gi is the default
And what's happening here is bjj is wildly unpopular, generalized submission grappling is what people are interested in and bjj is desperately trying to retroactively claim well actually it was all bjj all along!

Like its amazing how people will call ADCC a bjj competition. No it hecking isnt

>>146083
What's with this obsession with "debunking" BJJ? Submission grappling is a great term too, but if you look at the highest percentage submissions, they are almost exclusively from BJJ (which is derived from judo, we know):
>RNC
>heel hook
>arm bar
It's ok to separate BJJ into two categories: gi or no-gi. It's also ok to acknowledge that there are techniques that are useless in MMA/self-defense, but very effective in a sport/rules context.
All these retarded threads attempt to have a battle of semantics, but if you ACTUALLY TRAIN you realize BJJ is what everything boils down to under most "submission grappling" rulesets. ADCC heavily emphasizes wrestling, but even guard pullers or shitty wrestlers are on the podium.

>gringos train shit castrated bjj version
>think bjj is bad
holy shit i once saw an english youtube bjj video,and the guy said with a straight face that opening guard with your elbows is bad etiquette because it hurts,and it was not a small channel either,my spicca, just go train ballet or something.

>>146089
It's just about dismantling the house of lies BJJ is built upon
The entire claim to fame was beating up a bunch of strip mall karate practitioners that had no understanding of grappling and then declaring itself the most effective martial art
Meanwhile notoriously running scared from challenges other grapplers laid out and on the occasions they did take them they would lose badly every time

Hell, bjj was terrified of leg locks until like 5 years ago and now suddenly these systems are considered bjj
A kiwi teaching stuff in NYC doesnt seem very Brazilian to me

And now that I've been in it for as many years as I have I know my suspicions were true. Lots of koolaid drinking babbys first MA that when you compare apple to apples is a mediocre to bad grappling art

Other grapplers dont need to integrate BJJ the same way BJJ needs to integrate literally everything else to be effective

>>146098
It makes more sense when you think of martial arts styles as family trees rather than having any unchangeable foundation. BJJ is whatever the "BJJ community" is doing. If you asked Danaher what his style is he'd tell you he's a BJJ practitioner through and through. The fact that he doesn't wear a gi or speak Portuguese is irrelevant.

I fully support dismantling the Gracie propaganda but saying that modern BJJ isn't actually BJJ because it doesn't look exactly like what Helio and Carlos were doing in dirty Brazilian warehouses circa 1986 is ironically, a Gracie way of thinking. Shit changes.

Although the term is unimportant to me either way. Submission grappling is probably going to be the term going forward everywhere but Gracie Barra gyms. But make no mistake, submission grappling and ADCC doesn't exist without BJJ. That's just how history played out. It's bigger than Brazil these days, but those were the roots.

>>146098
>The entire claim to fame was beating up a bunch of strip mall karate practitioners
No, it was early MMA fights where submissions were shown to be effective despite size/skillset differences.
>running scared from challenges other grapplers laid out and on the occasions they did take them they would lose badly every time
Huh? ADCC exists for this, and the BJJ guys are almost exclusively the winners
>bjj was terrified of leg locks until like 5 years ago
No, people just sucked at them and Brazilians had a distaste for them
>mediocre to bad grappling art
Again, ADCC exists and sambo guys, wrestlers, and judokas never win. If you want to be autistic about it, there are stats you could find. MMA would also have stats that help BJJ's case (sweeps, submissions)
>Other grapplers dont need to integrate BJJ the same way BJJ needs to integrate literally everything else to be effective
I don't even understand this point. Anyone will likely perform badly outside of their ruleset (e.g. wrestler getting their back taken, BJJ guy getting double legged). Autists on 4chan have this strange obsession with pure/isolated martial arts, as if you can't have techniques or concepts from another and keep the name the same. Again, retarded semantics from people who don't actually train.

>>146105
They will have happen to them exactly what they did to the Japanese

Ah well you see we innovated so now its brazilian
Ah ok if thats how it works then since we're the ones innovating its American jiujitsu now :^)

And that makes them so salty and I love it
And facts are facts, the usa is where innovations are being made, not Brazil

>>146098
>Other grapplers dont need to integrate BJJ the same way BJJ needs to integrate literally everything else to be effective

This is unironically the best thing about modern-day BJJ, it's the only grappling art that will pretty much allow other grappling arts techniques in the rules. Judoka will cry and turtle if you touch the legs, samboists will scream if you choke them, wrestlers will call to the referee if you heel hook them, but NEARLY everything legal in all those arts is legal in BJJ, the only difference is that you don't win by pin.

You can't be a wrestler and go into a Judo tournament, because rules won't let you touch the legs, but you can in a BJJ tournament. You can't be a Judoka and and catch a Kataha Jime in a Sambo tournament, but you can in a BJJ tournament. I don't like guard-pulling but just like high-level BJJ comps allow most things from every other major grappling art, and they also allow guard pulling. Current BJJ moved past the Gracies and all their bullshit decades ago, and is now just a combination of whatever the best techniques are for a BJJ ruleset (of which there's more than one), and that's current-day BJJ's biggest strength. They will go out and take techniques from other martial arts if they are shown to be effective, whereas other arts (looking at the IJF and Peruvian Necktie) will ban them if shown to be effective.

>>146114
I know. You'd think judoka/wrestlers/whatever brand of faggot OP is would go to a BJJ tournament and lay down the law. Never seems to happen though, really weird.

>>146114
>nearly
Sure, lemme throw you. Oh shit, dq. How bout a slam? Whoop, dq.

>>146116
Throws aren't illegal, and egregious slams are illegal in every grappling sport.

Tell me you don't compete without telling me you don't compete: the post.

>>146118
>jump guard
>opponent drops you for acting like a retard
>this is an egregious slam
https://youtu.be/-saGaKMomUs

>>146115
Why would wrestlers and judoka compete in BJJ? They're Olympic sports, the highest level of competition taking place on the world stage
The highest level of BJJ is renting out a school gymnasium or rec center to have a "world championship" where the only credential you need to compete is to pay the entrance fee

>>146118
>throws aren't illegal
>They're just so tightly contested that anything resembling one that would end a fight is illegal
DQd again

>>146128
A throw and a slam are very different. Try competing (or even training) to find out

>>146132
There is absolutely nothing wrong with slamming
The no slamming rule only exists because it's a hard check against bottom guard play

>>146132
I keep getting DQd for walking in with too much force

>>146132
>a throw and a slam are different
Where is this true outside of bjj?

>>146135
Judo. Daki age is completely illegal and it is a straight up and down slam. Judo is very hostile to guard play, this one is illegal because of how injurious it is.

>>146136
Except there’s not a distinction made between “slams” and throws, there’s just certain throws that aren’t allowed and which are and aren’t against the rules is perfectly clear. I’ve been to bjj gyms before where I was told “you can do throws just not slams” and then given no more instruction as to what the difference is. Maybe there’s something written about it some where but everyone I’ve talked to about it has been incredibly vague. Also
>Judo is very hostile to guard play
No it’s not, you retard. You just have to move quickly. If you think that’s dumb so be it, but that doesn’t make it “hostile” to fighting from guard.

>>146136
I should also add that Daki age is not “completely illegal” so long as you don’t drop them. It used to be that raising someone up from guard passed hip height was an automatic ippon so long as you put them down gently. Now it’s just a stand up. Honestly though I like the old rules better

>>146139
Here's a quick flow chart

Did you do it to a Brazilian? ==> yes==> DQ for slamming

Did a brazilian do it to you? ==> yes ==> ayee jus a takey doun my fren

>>146139
Slams were always explained to me as being picking someone off the ground and slamming them back down. Bear hug takedowns like suplexes are illegal too, and some people call those slams which might be where the confusion is. I agree that this is vague.

>No it's not, you retard
Easy, slick. Refs are pretty damn skeptical of guard work and tend to stand it up faster than anything else. Maybe not in your experience, but definitely in mine and everyone I trained with. This was made very clear by my coach too. Judo refs tend to see closed guard as mere stalling. This isn't a complaint, it's just a ruleset difference.

>>146144
>be me
>finals of a tournament
>do rolling bow & arrow
>fully locked in
>guys face is eggplant purple
>either milliseconds away from a tap or he's deciding to go out on his shield
>female referee stands us up and resets us for inactivity

>be someone I know
>same technique
>gets disqualified for doing a "leglock" because he grabbed the pants to finish it the same way everybody does 99% of the time

>>146121
You can't compete in IBJJF Worlds without having enough points from winning comps. I get that you know nothing about what you're talking about, but figured other anons should know you're an idiot.

>>146150
Shhhh, anon, none of these people have competed. To them its a video game, where there's some sort of magical tier list. The difficulties of finding a place to train or actual competition and enforcement of the rules is irrelevant to them, as they do neither. They simply want the solace of knowing what is best (despite not doing anything).

>>146141
Kek, this isnt entirely untrue.

>>146144
> Judo refs tend to see closed guard as mere stalling. This isn't a complaint, it's just a ruleset difference.
Judo refs are by and large completely retarded dementia addled dinosaurs who don’t pay attention to the match and the kind of person who was never good at competing in the first place but now gets to decide what techniques are and aren’t valid not unlike the IJF.

>>146115
It never happens because the path to victory is different. You can't win just off of a throw or pinning, so they would have to change their gameplan. It's still a different sport. I'm just saying that BJJ doesn't outright make most of their techniques illegal when it becomes too effective.

>>146116
>>146128
>>146139
>>146144

A slam in BJJ is when you stop and redirect the momentum mid-air (their knees above your hips) to "slam" the opponent down. An example for Judo would be, a ura nage is legal because you're always moving the one way, despite how hard it is, whereas if you did a ura nage, stopped midway, then slammed them on their front, that would be illegal.

Wrestling is dead in my country so unfortunately I don't have experience outside of MMA, but I'm one of the autists that goes to Judo competitions and watches all the adults divisions between my matches because I just like watching martial arts. I think I've seen maybe one (utsuri goshi) illegal in BJJ throw done in any of those competitions. The majority of what you'll see in judo competition shouldn't be ruled a slam. Most referees are shit though, but that's not exclusive to martial arts.

People keep bringing up Gracies for BJJ but current-day BJJ has moved way past them and everyone SHOULD see through their bullshit. Current BJJ is just a mixture of effective techniques for that ruleset from different styles, and that's a good thing. I hate all that traditional bullshit and Gracie shit, but BJJ is lucky in that the "style" has been taken by its community and different rulesets are allowed (and more relaxed), rather than the IJF just constantly banning more moves.

>>146182
>current-day BJJ has moved way past them
So its not Brazilian anymore
That's really the point here. Nobody will dispute that jujitsu is an effective fighting art
It's the brazilian style that's super gay and ineffective
Basically its karate

>>146182
>Current BJJ is just a mixture of effective techniques
Except when it comes to actually taking the fight to the ground to apply them in a situation where an opponent is not obligated to follow you there

Yes, even ADCC and Nogi

>>146078
>Mighty Mouse
started as a wrestler

>Demien Maia
Started in judo and kickboxing

>Charles Oliveira
Literally the only guy you mentioned who started with BJJ

>>146194
You cut off my quote mid-sentence because then it ruins your argument. I said "Current BJJ is just a mixture of effective techniques FOR THAT RULESET", which is a ruleset where an opponent is obligated to follow you. You can make any grappling style look bad by changing the ruleset. Judo's defensive ground game is to lie flat on your stomach and wait for the referee. Wrestlers will stick their necks out shooting in because their in a situation where you can't just get choked out.

But my main point was the direction the rules/styles are evolving. IBJJF was basically forced to allow heel hooks because other BJJ rulesets allowed them and were/are more popular. I've been competing in BJJ rulesets that allow neck cranks for a few years, and it isn't too ridiculous to think that more major promotions will start to legalise them as well. Judo only really has the IJF as a major promoter, and I can't remember the last time they legalised a technique, rather than constantly banning what works. The leg grab ban was stupid, and should've just been penalised harder on stalling/fake attacks like how unorthodox grips are now. Standing submission are banned, the Peruvian Necktie was recently banned and watch Garrigos' throw get banned now that he's won with it. I'm optimistic about the future of BJJ's ruleset, especially with guard-pulling being penalised more with ADCC rule changes and ONE FC's grappling ruleset. The future of Judo's ruleset, I'm not as positive about.

>>146195
Maia literally only did Judo in when he was like 5 years old, you can't attribute him to Judo. But you can for Kung Fu and Karate which he did a lot before BJJ.

>>146188
>So its not Brazilian anymore
I guess, but I'm not sure what the distinction is. Are you upset that current BJJ is called BJJ? Would you rather it just be called Jiu Jitsu, because I think that would be a lot more confusing for Japanese Jiu Jitsu and ignore the influence wrestling has had on current-day BJJ competitions. Personally, I teach nogi BJJ, but when somebody asks me I just say I teach/do grappling or submission grappling. But my main point is that BJJ isn't heavily influenced by the Gracies or the IBJJF any more, instead they're playing catchup to the community. I'm sure if ADCC, EBI, NAGA and Grappling Industries didn't exist, the Gracies and the IBJJF wouldn't have legalised heel hooks, or any leglocks for that matter, but they're forced to evolve for the better because of competition.

Not to get too gay and metaphorical but BJJ doesn't really have a definition anymore. There's no organisation that decides what BJJ is like you have Judo or Wrestling, because there's no single major BJJ authority. I recently did a BJJ tournament where you could get points for pushing someone off the mats while standing. You don't see that rule in many BJJ tournaments, but who's the authority to say that isn't BJJ? There's honestly nothing stopping anybody from making a BJJ ruleset where you can't pull guard, and you can see it already being penalised in recent rulesets. I'm sure the Gracies are malding over that, but they're powerless to stop it if that's what people want to do.

>>146199
There needs to be a line drawn as things change which indicate you're doing something different
If you're allowed to just change as much as you want and keep the name then bjj is to this day still judo

But now there are off shoots, 10th planet for example deliberately doesnt call itself Brazilian jiujitsu, eddie gave his system a different name for a reason
And the leglock, bodylock, wrestle up and feet to floor systems taking over the sport are a distinctly modern developments made in NY and now Texas
Then you have Keenan's lapel guards which he calls American jiujitsu

So there is a dishonesty in continuing to call it bjj when Brazilians havent contributed to it in any meaningful way in decades but retroactively get credit put on their name through the work of others

my assertion is BJJ is specifically bullshit gracie combatives in a gi, butt scooting with no meaningful take downs, straight ankle locks basically being the entire lexicon of leg attacks, and the fiction that fighting off the back is ever a good idea when given the choice

Its outdated and time to be left behind and in my view time to just say jujitsu as a blanket term for submission grappling

And side rant for anyone that cares
Definitely no more of this jiujitsu shit either, its jujitsu. Not to be a weeb but it's bizarre to me they mistranslated the word and everyone just goes along with the incorrect spelling
Its じゅ ju not じう jiu I understand why they made this mistake because じ is Ji and う is U but you're supposed to read it as syllables so you need to combine Ji with Yu to make a JU sound じゅ

>>146206
>If you're allowed to just change as much as you want and keep the name then bjj is to this day still judo
In that case, I wouldn't call what is current day Judo, Judo. The only difference is that current-day BJJ changed for the better, and current-day Judo changed for the worse.

I'm a bit confused though, do you hate Brazilians or the Gracies? How is them calling it Gracie Jujitsu (I'll spell it that way for you) any different from Kano rebranding Jujitsu as Judo, or Eddie Bravo rebranding his own stuff as 10th Planet Jujitsu. Would you be happy if the Miyao brothers just started calling their style Brasilian Jujitsu like Keenan calls his American Jujitsu? Because even the Gracies themselves differentiate between what you call BJJ and what is current-day BJJ, except they call it Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

I do agree with you about dropping the names. Like I said, I just describe what I teach as "submission grappling". I've been lucky enough to train under different styles, so I tell my students stuff like "this is a more catch-style technique" and stuff like that when I teach techniques from certain styles to keep the distinction, but I'm not going to not teach something effective because it's a different style. I'd just drop all the weeb shit and call it Submission Grappling though, not jujitsu. I don't speak Japanese, didn't learn from a Japanese person and don't need to bow to a picture of some dead manlet at the start of every class like Judo is obsessed with.

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Seeing jiu jitsu being the most hated martial art by the 4chan larpers only assures me i'm in the right path
>takes your back
>chokes you out
"B-b-b-b-but my friends were supposed to kick you in the face, where are my friends?"

>>146033
Thug Shaker Jiu Jitsu.

>>146217
You will never be a woman and I will slam your skull into the concrete with a suplex. Roll your way out of that faggot.

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>>146224
"I will pick you up and sl-ACK"

>>146217
>thinks people who hate bjj on 4chan are larpers
>proceeds to write what he'd do in a fight

>>146217
Ok white belt
You're gonna quit in 6 months like all the rest

>>146208
Well of course I think we can all agree any reasonable person hates Brazilians, but that's besides the point

Gracie jiujitsu as we know is just judo with the lie about how they "modified" it to make it work for a smaller person
When the reality is their training was simply incomplete so they never learned how to throw properly and thus could only do newaza. So already out of the gate it was an inferior product
Then the other Brazilians saw how popular gracie jiujitsu was but couldnt use the name so they just called it Brazilian
BJJ is a knock off of a knock off
BJJ is the store brand version of the blue belt level judo the gracies were doing
And a big thing too is it doesnt have that sam training intensity of other martial arts have, it's too casual, doesnt build grit

So to get to my point if someone says they do BJJ you can be assured they're probably a shit grappler
Speaking generally at my current power level with my shitty back and knees and chubby belly someone needs to be a black belt in BJJ just to hope for a stalemate with me. Not saying I cant be tapped, just saying that's the minimum price for entry barring those occasional flukes when something weird happens
A brown belt could hold me off for a while and may survive the round, and a purple belt may as well be a white belt

And it's not because I'm so great, I do very basic stuff and I just do the same few things every time,
It's the same slow grindy force halfguard smash every time
And when they sit guard it's like lmao thanks bro you just didnt 60% of my job for me
its just that once you understand bjj it's the easiest thing in the world to shut down and this is why it doesnt work in MMA anymore
Its greatest strength was its novelty. But everybody can do techniques on someone that has never seen them before, now that everybody knows about them they aren't very good

>>146242
>if someone says they do BJJ you can be assured they're probably a shit grappler

I'm probably going to dox myself hard with this, but this has been my experience with "elite" Judoka. I do ne waza with out 6-time 100kg+ national champion (who regularly beats our #2 100kg+ player through osaeokomi) and I don't think I've gone a round without tapping him out pretty easily. I can also see what he's trying to bait, usually the turtle death roll, but it feels like just rolling against a big blue belt. Don't get me wrong, he's an ace in stand-up and I've only beaten him 3 times out of the 14 times we've competed, and that was only because I tired him out to golden score, but I keep hearing about how Judoka are elite grapplers on the ground and it's not my experience. Last month I saw our -81kg national champion ask a white belt I've dragged to Judo for the past 3 months from BJJ how to do a kimura from north-south because my white belt submitted him with it and he said he hadn't seen it before. Maybe I just live in a country with absolute dogshit Judo, but the idea that Judoka are stomp BJJ players on the ground is a myth in my experience.

The only thing reasoning I can think of is that all my BJJ is MMA-based where I prioritise getting top position and control, and all my students learn the same style from me, so they don't pull guard like you say. But in my lifetime, the international level Judoka I've done ne waza with would be barely state-level, even with their ruleset that bans anything too effective on the ground.

>>146250
the judo program in my gym happens to be atypically newaza heavy, it gets just as much time spent on it as standing
I would say it's the destination in the area for newaza and kata so if someone from another gym has a promotional coming up they will come in and cross train at our place to get ready

but that's aside the point
I know exactly what you mean where I've encountered seasoned judo black belts that don't know how to do a triangle from their back
but the flip side I see bjj guys completely overwhelmed by the top pressure of judo players
see they have no idea what it feels like to be pinned by someone that's actually trying to pin you. bjj pins are half measures, transitional places. like for me if I'm ever rolling with someone that does bjj and they got into side control for example. I'm not even going to try and escape, he's going to fuck his own control up with an attack and make space for me, why should I waste my effort?
It's a rude awakening for many to be under someone that is intent on holding you there and smothering the life out of you slowly

>>146242
>>146250
I think we are a few rule changes away from no-gi becoming the ultimate grappling art. There needs to be more emphasis on top control and maybe points for throws to appease the judokas.

My gym does modern BJJ much like B-Team and half if not more of our training is wrestling. I have no idea what to call it anymore. Kron's performance was the last nail in the Gracie coffin, and I'm embarrassed to be associated with that style.

>>146260
well for starters passing shouldn't even be worth points, pinning should
it's completely arbitrary to say this side of legs bad, this side of legs good
I don't even try to stop aggressive passing anymore, let him go past my legs and get rekt from a wrestle up

for example a smash half is way worse to be in than cross side, you're way more trapped with the only option being to try and rebuild the half guard, meanwhile he has 2 directions of attack
who cares if your leg is in there or not, if your shoulders are being held flat against the mat you're losing
meanwhile cross side ( I dont like saying side control anymore because that implies he has control over you) set up a guard, come up on a single, turtle out, frame and just stand up. Endless options of attack but the rules say its a "bad" position

>>146234
How does it feel to have literal autism, anon?
>>146236
Unlike other anons here i'm not a 10x black belt national champion but i can assure you i'm closer to black than to white belt
I'm also brazilian if that helps in making you seethe more

>>146273
>I'm also brazilian
Oof
Have fun learning something 25 years out of date

>>146274
With every tools you had to attack my nationality you picked something that doesn't make any sense

>>146256
As someone who loves judo, I think it has the worst mattwork of the major grappling disciplines. It has a much more passive bottom game than wrestling, although I do like how long you have to hold to score with osaekomi.

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Improved

>>146266
This is maybe the most retarded and autistic thing on the board right now. Deciding to use your own, or at least very obscure terminology for side control just because you don't like it is peak autism. Also dipshit you only get points from guard passing if you get the pin, you can't just go through the legs and get two points. Passing is worth points because someone having their legs in front of you gives them a large number of good attacking and defending options, so passing them removes these options. So yes, this side of legs good, other side bad. There are still attacking options if they pass your guard but they are few and far between, and no good guy will let you get them.

>>146292
this attitude is exactly why bjj gets absolutely analized by wrestlers these days and has become a completely irrelevant part of MMA
and don't muh submissions! me, the only submissions people use at any reliable percentage are the ones that have been a part of classical japanese jujitsu and catch wrestling for hundreds of years

nobody passes the guard. There's no reason whatsoever pass to the side when you're in a fight with someone. As long as they're carrying your bodyweight it makes no difference where their legs are and in fact you're often giving up superior control for the sake of scoring points.
consider this, you have someone stacked over his neck and are crushing the fuck out of him, feeding him is knees, he can't breathe and his cervical spine is herniating
well herpdyderp lemme just take all the pressure off and push their legs to the side so I can score my 3 points and give them a chance to escape. plus if he taps out here because of the neck pressure I could get DQ'd. High octane retardation to do that. Stay in the fucking stack

>>146294
Your stack pass example just shows that you are pretty fucking garbage at grappling. Its super easy to get out of a stack pass, any good grappler has to be able to get out of them without much difficulty, so if you just keep trying to crush a good grappler and feed him his knees he will just strip grips and either push back with his hips or spin or invert back to guard depending on the exact type of stack. That is why people dont just stack people and let them sit there, because they will just reguard again, you have to either tight waist to side control or move around to north south.

>>146295
Craig jones disagrees
He has an entire instructional series on why guard passing is pointless if you didnt know

>>146296
He also has a series based around the premise that ALL submission wrestling is pointless if you just stand up. I will still take gordan ryan or danahers advice over craigs desu

>>146295
He doesn't need to actually pass the guard; he can stack you up to hit you in the face.

>>146297
And he's right, once you embrace just standing up you realize how inept bjj practitioners are at actually keeping you downIts because the rules punish people for not engaging into bad positions for themselves
Example, one guy is avoiding takedowns by sitting to his butt on the floor and starts scooting like a dog wiping its ass on the carpet
Any normal sport would say hey bro, you're not engaging, you need to stand up
But in bjj it's the guy on his feet that wants to do takedowns that is somehow not engaging. He will be penalized if he doesnt step on a landmine. The hierarchy of bjj positions is allegedly which ones are "best to strike from"

So here is a game you can play at home with a friend
The next time you roll, the only thing that scores points is touching your partners face with your hand
Dont need to slap, cheeks, jaw, forehead are fine, just a touch. 1 point for every touch
You're going to realize how quickly the need for guard passing completely evaporates just as the ability to play guard offensively does
The traditionally strong bjj scoring positions will be reduced to transitional positions you'll actively avoid in favor of top riding positions like the Dagestanies use

When's the last time you've seen someone get KOd from knee on belly or side control?
Only time that happens is when a fighter has been knocked down already from strikes and the other person just follows them down to finish off an already dazed opponent
Knee on belly in the eyes of BJJ is such a powerful position it deserves to score points when you do it to somebody
But You never see anyone pass a guard to side control, pop up onto a knee on belly, and then attack with strike
This is a situation that will never happen in a fight but is a common scoring position in bjj
Because bjj cut its teeth beating up random people with no training. But you could do that with karate
It isn't designed on dealing with people that have trained response and can fight back

>>146297
>>146325
Both of them are on the same page. Danaher identified 3 major weaknesses in Jiu-Jitsu years ago:
>1. No emphasis on attacking the legs
SOLVED
>2. Takedowns from a standing position
>3. Keeping your opponent down (pins)
Teams that are relevant (New Wave, B-Team, Daisy Fresh etc.) all work on this. There are two B-Team guys wearing wrestling shoes in the last vlog.

Other than Paulson, who has a good amount of material for non-bjj grappling across various rule sets/real world. Doesn't have to be English necessarily, but any dubbing or subbing needs to be stellar. I'm too dumb to translate a translation for an instructional.

>>146288
>just show up

they really want you to pay for that membership, I swear they preach this shit to all of the new guys more than actually fighting

>>146340
Josh Barnett, Neil Melanson, Jake shannon

>>146325
BJJ for the purposes of grappling is different to BJJ for the purposes of MMA, and this is fine. There are plenty of people out there who want to do grappling precisely because they like the wrestling and physically combative setting but dont like getting punched in the face. You shouldnt necessarily conflate the two, which is exactly what you are doing
>hurr durr if its not perfect for situations with striking involved its garbage
I don't want to do a sport where I get hit in the face, so this is not an issue, but for people who do care the problems mostly stem from relatively poor and cautious takedown games, a game stemming from the danger of trying to take someone down in a sport with submissions but no ability to distract the opponent via strikes.

I havent really heard about BJJ guys somehow not being able to keep people down, and I have no idea how this is somehow connected to buttscooting, the argument doesnt follow

Not sure why you have such a hate boner for side control and similar positions, people in especially high level BJJ see side control as a good position, but ultimately only useful as a transition to something like mount because side control has you control your opponent with your hands, thereby stopping you from attacking. It scores because its a good position past the opponents legs, meaning most of their defenses are gone, it is definitely much better than a neutral position, but it doesnt score as much as back control or mount because you will have a hard time attacking from it. Theoretically if you get side control then you should also be getting mount.

>>146322
How do you intend to hit someone in the face if you have your feet or knees on the floor and are using both of your hands to feed him his knees. Do you have fucking telekinesis? Or was your grand plan to give up getting into an actually controlling position in favour of getting like one sloppy hit in before he reguards?

>>146341
If you became a martial arts teacher it's because you can't really do anything else, probably lack any kind of an actual education which allows you to make money for yourself so it's either entry level labor and retail positions or try to sell lessons to people that have real jobs and disposable income.
And just because you have knowledge in how to do something doesnt mean you're in any way qualified to transfer that knowledge to others.
Teachers have to go to college to learn how to be teachers for a reason, but as we already discussed the martial arts teachers have no education.
We are expecting too much of people with a sub 100 IQ to actually troubleshoot problems and give eloquent solutions to them. These are people that have brute forced their way through every situation in their life with no nuance whatsoever
And so to them just show up is a completely sound piece of advice. rather than identify the trouble and put together an action plan that addresses the difficulties you're having "just keep showing up until you figure it out bro"
Why try to find a way over the wall? just keep running into it until you break through to the other side

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>>146288
Dammit I just scrolled past this
Why do memes become reality

>>146353
>his instructor isn't a smart and educated person
Sorry anon

>>142315
don't mind him, he suffers from BBC Hysteria Syndrome

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Bjj never had a chance of being good and it was only a matter of time before it got btfo like it is now

You just have to go back and think about why we are doing things the way that we are
Let's go back to judo and understand why certain things score
Effectively you score in judo by dominating your opponent, the more dominant you are the more you get

Now in comes side control, why do you win for pinning somebody there?
Because the person on the bottom has all of the tools they could ever possibly need to escape, so if you are able to hold them in that pin for 30 seconds you have proven that you have completely dominated them
Judo is full of things like this where there are certain grips like not going inside the cuffs, no hanging on the belt, no ducking under for the back, more recently grabbing the legs for a takedown and stuff like that you aren't allowed to do because they are too powerful and make it too easy. By design the sport chooses to do things the hardest way possible.
Smash half is way harder to escape than side control is so it isn't worth any points because you're not really proving anything. It's about beating them when they have the best possible odds of getting away.

And then bjj comes along and just says well this is how judo does it so this must be the right way to do it, not realizing that judo is deliberately doing this to make it harder on themselves

So in effect the entire methodology bjj swears by is derived from hold overs from a sport they aren't even doing anymore and don't even know why that sport was doing it that way in the first place
Here's a fun challenge, ask a bjj teacher why exactly it's illegal to grip the inside of the sleeve or pants
Not a single one actually knows, they'll often just make up on the spot and say "so you don't hurt your fingers" says the guy who is using medical tape in place of his ligaments.
Ask anyone in judo and they'll give you the actual answer. That grip is too hard to break so it's not sporting.

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>>146893
so the BJJ-hating schizo doesn't even train Judo. Otherwise he'd know that Osaekomi is 10 seconds for Waza-ari and 20 seconds for ippon instead of his claimed 30 seconds, as well as that leg grabs and unorthodox grips weren't banned for being too powerful/easy, but actually the opposite. People wouldn't get successful takedowns from them so they were banned for wasting time.

If you like Judo then that's cool, post and learn about Judo. But you look like an idiot when you get basic facts about rule changes and their reasoning wrong. I see more guys that praise Judo and hate BJJ talk more about BJJ than Judo itself on this board, the /judo/ thread should be more active. The same goes for Reddit (pic related) where all the Judo posters talk constantly about how the always get posts from BJJ guys putting down Judo, where it's all the posters from /r/judo/ posting on /r/bjj and none of the BJJ-posters even talk about Judo.

Spend more time learning correct information about Judo and training it, because Judo definitely needs all the support it can get in English-speaking areas. I train in both BJJ and Judo, but this weird superiority complex you have when you post just makes posters look insecure.

>>146910
Nice try but you wont be gaslighting anyone here today

>>142264
Assuming BJJ is the epitome of the "humbled on the mat" attitude, what is the sport that is the antithesis of this? Boxing? They often have the delusional self-confidence that they can fuck up any grappler and MMA fighter they choose, which is silly but the fact they sincerlely believe it makes it kinda based

>>146935
>being retarded is based
It'd be some kind of memeshit art where they can't train because they're all killers and it's too dangerous to use in the streets.

>>146935
Aikido has in my experience been full of the most delusionally confident people despite their faux humility

>>146938
Id rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 bro

>>146935
That would be wingchun tho not boxing.

>>146273
SOPA DE JIU JUTSU UMA DELIÇA

>>146935
Maybe its just the spic case but there is a lot of guys that insist that BJJ its invincible and can't shut up about it.

>"shooting" for a takedown the lynchpin of BJJ
>actually incredibly stupid thing to do
>any competent nak muay can knee your face as you come in
>doing so, or any reaction to the suicide attack is banned in MMA rules
I would mind BJJ less if it wasnt so smug while simultaneously being babied by UFC

>>146935
Judo (based on /xs/) or any of the obscure traditional eastern martial arts.
McDojo Karate's. God I have some memories. If you ever feel like wasting an evening having a polite chuckle, go along to one.

>>147976
Ime doesn't work in practice.
>Your forearms are still guarding while you shoot up until you're right on them.
>If you've not fucked your position, they're not catching your face as you're too close by then.
>You might take a knee to the titty, but your face should be out of there.
>Even then, an incidental knee to the forehead can be shrugged off in the heat of the moment.
I mean, I still don't like shooting in. I like the standing wrestle to control the spine, but that's a skill issue more than technique.

>>147976
https://youtu.be/rW7vvwWsufQ
Kneeing takedowns is a perfectly valid strat and isn't banned in the UFC. It would work against BJJ guys but probably wouldn't work against a decent wrestler. It's also a risky decision compared to just sprawling because if you miss or he comes in too fast you're completely off balance and getting taken down in a less favourable position.
It requires:
>incredibly fast reaction time
>the guy shooting shooting to telegraph his takedowns
>the guy shooting to not adequately set up the takedown by throwing you off balance first

>>147976
Lmao yeah you are going to stop a grappler with a knee to the face
Also you would just get up, right?

>>148012
Yes.
https://youtu.be/QnOz7Vmeevk

>>147136
I hear less invincibility claims than I do claims of
>against an untrained opponent, it's the art most likely to nuke them from orbit
Despite the fact that it seems like wrestling and "repeatedly throwing or slamming someone to the ground" are the undisputed champions of instantly winning untrained street-fights

>>148029
I always found it pretty dumb honestly, The promise of BJJ is that a blue belt can defeat an untrained opponent that's bigger than them in a fight
And that makes me think wow what a lousy a promise that is, is BJJ really that bad? What a low threshold

To be a blue belt you are talking a year and a 1/2 maybe even up to 2 years Training consistently 3 times a week

I could give you 12 weeks of kickboxing twice a week and you would have the same result

>>148029
Takedowns are a lot fucking worse on hard surfaces. Its not rocket science. Unfortunately as long as the most popular expression of martial arts is combat sports, this shit will never end. When you turn your pride into a career you gradually begin to refuse to admit your methods aren't perfect. You could do them the courtesy of giving exaggerated & exalted praise in the same breath as you pointing out one environment/situation where it falls short and they'll pitch a fucking toddler tier hissy fit, then go on a dumbass rant about how you need to be humble.

>>148031
>is BJJ really that much worse than kickboxing
Yes. People who spend every practice knocking the shit out of other people in the face and guts tends to preselect for people who already start shit. I routinely ran into the sketchiest motherfuckers in boxing. Dudes destined to fuck up and end up serving year plus for domestic abuse or felony assault.

When you preselect like that, fuck yeah you're going to get a higher level of aggression, speaking in aggregate.

>>148031
>I could give you 12 weeks of kickboxing twice a week and you would have the same result
Boxing doesn't ever get results for manlets though, BJJ often does.

People suck its dick because if shorties can get the grapple, they now have a potential brutal win when before they were basically guaranteed fucked

>>148038
I mean Tyson was a manlet, so was DC
You just gotta learn from a short guy how to make yourself compact and get close

Funny enough wrestling is a much superior body type for 5x5s than bjj. Bjj favors being long, wrestling favors getting under someone.

>>148038
>before they were basically guaranteed fucked
this. back in high school, if it was you versus someone on the football team, nothing you did was capable of helping you, theyd eat punches for days because punching doesn't overcome serious mass disadvantages. there was literally nothing you could do and the only self defense tip anyone had was 'hit them in the balls', which even the dumbest of retards would be defending againt. bjj teaching how to hit a joint lock or a choke changed everything because the potential threat of a short person went from 'i might hit you in the nuts if i get lucky' to 'i might choke you unconscious or break your wrist or ankle, then do whatever iwant to you'

>>148040
>tyson was a manlet
tyson was 5'11 and 220lb, calling him a manlet is stolen valor bullshit

>>148041
This
Thing is bjj works, everytime someone post something against that its a case where either the other guy was really good at fighting and a better martial artists, the average 4chan basement dweller would never beat a decent blue belt by going for his eyes or something

>>148038
>>148041
>Boxing doesn't ever get results for manlets
You never got good at striking

>>148041
He's 5'10 retard. And he destroyer 6'3 fighters.

>>148038
>>148041
>>148053
I would argue that martial arts don’t work for manlets, period. A decent manlet striker is no less disadvantaged than a decent manlet grappler. They’re equally shit against a full sized male with the same skillset.

>>148298
Who in here believes that they can take a UFC 125-pounder?

>>148041
>Ive never fought in my whole life
Stfu dude. Everything you type reeks of larp. Literally talking about fucking highscool fights. Your an idiot for making an argument that has NEVER been legit. Pro-fighting has proved being a lanklet dont mean shit. If your this obsessed about height, you cant fight.

>>148298
I don't know man.
I'm a lanky 6'2, and while I've shat on people bigger (and heavier than me), I've been shat on by people smaller than me.
I think being lower, and being able to get the underhook easier, actually has a pretty strong benefit.

>>148386
the distinction really needs to be made between a dwarf and a hobbit when it comes to manlets
you could be a 5'6" natural 200 pounder built like a washing machine in total neanderthal mode, or a 5'6" 120 ladyboy that should just consider shaving everything and spreading cheeks because you're never gonna make it

>>148386
I personally think that if you’re a man you should learn how to fight. An able-bodied manlet who actually trains and puts in the work can fold most of the population if pressed. People need some perspective so they train instead of crying about their physical limitations

>>148301
I most definitely can. Thats fucking woman tier you silly fuck

>>148038
Which is weird, because being on the bottom against a bigger person is probably worse than trying to outstrike a bigger guy.

>>148451
I’d say a smaller opponent trained in striking would have at least a chance of scoring a good hit with knockout potential. Striking against a bigger man sucks but it’s possible to reach them. Once the fight goes to the ground you need to be a lot more skilled in grappling and their weight advantage can’t be too significant or you’re getting smothered in bottom.

>>148467
This is true against trained opponents, but untrained opponents with a reach advantage will still wall a manlet out and even with no skill can still punch adequately for knockouts, whereas punch odds go away in a grapple and untrained bigger grapplers basically every time are gonna give you their back at which point you're a 6 second RNC from a win.