Discuss arts classified as Traditional East Asian martial arts here (Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Karate, Kempo, Taekwondo, Kudo, JuJutsu, Judo, Aikido, Hapkido, etc) in a safe space.Discussions about effectiveness vs MMA etc are great but not for this thread. Yes many of the ones mentioned are Budo which in Japan are classified as modern arts, this is for what Westerners perceive as traditional East Asian arts.What is your art?What is your grade/belt level?What is the most important lesson it has taught you?
Why do I get the feeling this was made by that one guy who has been trolling all the martial art's threads lately with childish bullshit?Anyway, I would argue Hapkido, Judo, and Taekwondo aren't traditional and instead modern styles.
>>104361With the exception of perhaps Wing Chun, Tai Chi and some styles of Karate and Jujutsu none of those are traditional martial arts. The vast majority of what are called traditional martial arts are modern inventions or reformulations of older arts meant to be taught in masse to school children, college kids or army cadets. This is why they often have military like emphasis on discipline, all the lining up, lots of solo drilling, etc.
>>104372>>104361You are both absolutely correct. Hence mentioning that in the OP. In the Western sense a TMAs are the Budo arts and/or their equivalents. I.e. arts that aim to teach more than just being good at a particular sport, like say boxing does, but that have other aims at their core, not just a side effect, like cultural preservation or spiritual development.Hence Muay Thai wouldn't be a TMA, since afaik Muay Thai training simply aims for you to be the best Muay Thai fighter. But Judo is since it has personal development and cultural preservation as core principles, as well as the aim of making you the best Judoka. Those are what defines a TMA in common modern parlance.
>>104373Silly image to state the obvious.
>>104373>That picIf you read about the modern budo you would know that many of the leading practitioners were both capable of incredible acts of violence, and took matches with other style/schools with deadly seriousness.
>>104361>Why do I get the feeling this was made by that one guy who has been trolling all the martial art's threads lately with childish bullshit?Which one of them?
>>104381Damn, sounds based.
Thoughts on Kudo? It seems to solve the issues of both Karate and Judo while maintaining traditional martial arts values?
>>104361Someone was being childish and trolling on 4chan you say? I am shocked SHOCKED.
Anyone know good any youtube channels about historically accurate and practical chinese weapon arts?Something ultra autistic like gladiatores with actual swords and polearms would be nice.
>>104381It was never implied they weren't. The point is TMA (in modern Western parlance) means arts that have aims other than purely getting good at a particular full-contact sport, E.g. MMA vs Judo, be it cultural preservation, e.g. many Chinese Martial Arts, and/or spiritual development, e.g. Aikido.
>Traditional East Asian martial arts>Wing Chun,Ip Man >Tai ChiYes, tai chi is pretty old but good luck finding the old ways>KarateSame as tai chi> Kempo, If you mean hawian kempo "karate" is not traditional. It's from the 50s.Shorinji kempo, Nihon KempoFrom the 40s.>TaekwondoLooool. It is a modern karatre offspring>Kudo,C'mon. I think even they hate the label "traditional" >JuJutsu,Jujutsu in europe: a mix of judo, karate and aikidoJujutsu in brazil: the local judoJujutsu elsewhere: a bizarre label of so many modern styles with a little of japanese flavour> JudoThe point of Jigoro Kano is not being traditional any more. And yet the most traditional style of your list>Aikido,From the 40s from love. Suuuuper traditional.>Hapkido A substyle of Daito ryu (or not, maybe, who knows) with lots of taekwondo kicks. Traditional as fuck sure.
>>104445See >>104437 and >>104373. E.g. what people in modern terms in the West commonly call Traditional Martial Arts. I.e. arts that care about preserving intangible culture or developing non-combat aspects as well as fighting/martial ability, which ironically in Asia may be defined as modern arts like Judo.
>>104435You'll be sorely disappointed if you're looking for autistic SCA types, but here are some:https://www.youtube.com/user/mugenGRTCScott Rodell's stuff on the Great River Taoist Center channel is more or less the gold standard for Chinese swordsmanship in the West. He gets very historical and technical with a lot of things, but they don't release a load of sparring footage, despite having a decent reputation of sparring. Still, his insights on use of the jian are as good as you can get as far as English-based content is concerned. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvvThPMe_v3YmgPvqAPEoCgJack Chen's channel (ChineseLongsword) has been producing interpretations on a bunch of spear, sword and staff treatises for ages now, which have been steadily getting more systematic, so if you're looking for early-day HEMA style interpretation autism, it's pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjnXojK-si2udqu383duqQALK Chen, who's better known for making some of the best historically accurate Chinese swords on the market, has a channel too. While he is outstandingly autistic when it comes to the dimensions and weight of historical weapons, he uses his own system and methodology with the jian, so whether the techniques themselves are accurate are up to you. It's not clear whether he spars anyone beyond his students either, but he does have pretty cool sparring footage, so it's at least somewhat practical. At the same time, he's single handedly revived interest in the hooked buckler (gou rang) and offers the closest thing we have to reconstructing its use, so there's that. (Cont.)
>>104460https://www.youtube.com/user/nwowolfmanHere's a Korean channel (OldSwordplayer) that essentially does similar things as Jack Chen, but with less rambling. Their playlist on reconstructing techniques of the Sword Scripture is actually really based and well produced. Insanely underrated channel for its quality of content, just not many English descriptions either.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnWJZWG0cfZzUUqsGMcBKNwThe Scholar-General has some pretty solid shield manual interpretations as well, which I don't think most, if any of the other channels cover. Most of his content consists of history and sword reviews, so there's less focus on the techniques themselves than other channels here.If you want some more general stuff on practical weapon arts, there's plenty of miaodao sparring footage on youtube. Along with some styles still teaching its use, there's a couple treatises on it and most people who study it cross-train HEMA, so it's about as legit as you'd hope to get. Don't think there are many channels that purely focus on it, but miaodao stuff is generally not hard to find.There's also a niche, but growing movement of spearsmanship comps in Taiwan that's branched out to Hong Kong, where most of the techniques are based on bajiquan pike practice (daqiang) and the Shou Bi Lu. With their competition format and technical curriculum, it's pretty well put-together as far as Chinese arts go, and should be reasonably practical. Don't think they take armour into account though, for a military weapon art.For some tech and overview: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP_cs-gOHhwiX_zVnbEcQwQFor autistic tech curriculum (all in Chinese I'm afraid):https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3EWFIeqmj7bMUsMmIGdPHwThere are plenty of other channels out there that go over historical Chinese weapons, reconstruct stuff and do weapon sparring; but these are the better ones I know of.
If you already trained in American Kickboxing, Judo, and Jeet Kune Do, is there anything in common Karate styles (Shotokan, Kyokushin, etc) that you wouldn't know in terms of techniques?
>>104352Don't lump judo in with your woo-woo bullshit
>>104518If karate has to be lumped in with it then so does judo
>>104518Of all the problems with this thread, classifying Judo with those other arts is the least of them. It just shows what a poor catagory "TMA" is compared to more precise terminology like "Shin Budo" or "Martial sports"
>>104460>Great River Taoist CenterThe dude is pretty legit, what's up with the way he stands? Is he weebmaxing or does that bow legged stance get drilled into kung fu practitioners?
>>104532....fuck, I can't unsee it now. Honestly not a clue, probably just a postural quirk.
>>104561Probably does too much horse stance training.
How far is too far for a club ? There's a panglipur galih silat club at 1h away from me, the guy learned from Cecep and seems to know what he talks about (I had a trial session, because we were very few he could describe in detail each movement of the form, and didn't hesitate to say he didn't know what x was for when he didn't (silat is still very small here but he said even if the moves seem useless to him, he's no grandmaster so he should still give the complete package)), however as I've said it's a hour away, and the classes all end at 22:30 +maybe some more time so it wouldn't be too good for my sleepAlso, I obviously don't know a lot, but we spent some time taking after the class so if anyone is interested I could give some details about what it's like
>>104582It really depends on how much recovery time you need which is completely individual. I get a lot of recovery time so can go to out of town gyms & schools. Tho I am very lucky in that where I live despite being exurban/rural has some of the best gyms/schools at a national level for BJJ, Muay Thai, and powerlifting. It's only wrestling that is a bit further away. Try it and be strict about nutrition and sleep?
>>104532dunno about kung fu, but karate guys having wheel-legs stance is very common and quite a meme. their legs will look like a 0 or O.
>>104373That image may apply to some gyms in europe nowadays but i hope that in America MMA isnt fueling the stereotype anymore as much. To be frank if its not a total meathead gym, you will find 1 or 2 meatheads in both TMA and MMA and the rest is normal people.
>>105424I don't think it was ever true. MMA because of it's base in BJJ, i.e. 99% of MMA schools started out or teach as much BJJ as MMA, have those kinds of traditional martial arts values. It's kickboxing and boxing gyms that tend to be quite meathead, at least here in Britain.
>>105450In America Canada and one (probably more) poland if its a wrestling or boxing based mma gym there meatheads And I am proud to be a tattoo meathead who has a black belt in judo and a red belt in kung-fu
>>104352Drunken Boxing and Praying Mantis stylist here, ama
>>106205Cool, I'm tiger crane and leaping mayfly
>>106226Kung Fu is so silly I don't know if you're talking shit. I learned a double axe form that's called "winding millstone rolls down hill" and you're just a rolling spinning ball of death going at peoples ankles. Even millstones can have scary kung fu
>>106227I do Chi kung iron wire
>>106228hard qi gong is actually super based. I do a bunch of iron body. I do arm, palm, head, torso, and leg conditioning nearly every day. I back bridge and drop cinderblocks on my chest and beat myself with an iron pole. I'm waiting for the day someone tries to phoenix eye me dead in the sternum. I want to be so strong their finger breaks.
>>106234Epically autistic. I love it.
>>106279I fear the man who beats himself all day with an iron rod. When I hit him, he'll just throw his head back and laugh at me. I was nothing compared to the rod.
>>106205>drunken boxingYou know you’re practicing a style that was literally made up by a Jackie chan movie right?
>>104373These values on the right should be taught by parents.
I'm 37 years old now.I started training Kendo when I was 14, at 20 I joined a taekwondo gym where I met a lot of amazing fighting and self defense autists, after 6 years I moved on with one of my masters there to Krav Magaa, Grappling and practical street fighting and I kept that going for 7 years until I had kids, hoping here and thre to do sprrings and trainings at several gyms on Karate, Judo, Akido and many others.Now I train alone my own style with bits I picked along the way.The best thing I learned in all these years is to better control my own body, and that I myself I'm my worst and eternal rival.Regarding martial arts and technique, they are all the same shit with slightly different flavors and names, what enlightned me the most was an hindu book my master lent me, it was about the original yoga as a martial art and not just the wester take on stratching (somehow similar to the chinese variants of kung-fu) where they just mentioned where it hurt to hit or be hit, how to defend those areas and left to the martial artist how to strike / or hit: fists, weapons, kicks... does not matter, the important thing is to hit in the important places.
>>106359Cool, I'm a brown belt of the hidden mizurugi riyou. Looking forward to learning the nine headed dragon light.
>>106359Nice. Yeah the OG Shaolin martial arts was based on Indian martial arts since that was the source of Buddhism, where yoga was the conditioning work for a combat art that resembled SEA boxing/Muay Boran and SEA stick/blade arts/silat/arnis.It's pretty much dead in the subcontinent due to the British banning martial arts but you still get Kushti/wrestling and the Sikhs preserved the blade/stick forms more for as performance as Gatka.I'm a big believer in cross-training for effectiveness. It seems more so important with TMA. I.e. Aikido if cross trained with Judo & BJJ becomes pretty useful. Wing Chun if cross trained with full contact Karate likewise. Not sure what TKD can be cross trained with to he effective. Boxing maybe?
>>106324you know you know nothing about chinese martial arts right? drunken boxing has been around since at least the han dynasty, being practiced in both shaolin and wudangshan and laoshan. Drunken boxing is a very old and respectable system. My drunken boxing is taoist, and of wudang lineage. Drunken boxing and Mantis actually have a ton of crossover. It's some good good shit, and requires stupid amounts of flexibility and stamina to make effective. Jackie Chan unironically is really fucking good at traditional chinese martial arts, and his drunken boxing is actually top notch. Jet Li is the goat of Wushu, Jackie Chan is the goat of Kung Fu.
>>106381Damn the british colonialism.Well, the first thought drives TKD to cross train with boxking indeed as one focuses on kicks and the other on punching, but in my experience the motions of the pelvis and the core to drive the legs and arms in both disciplines is so different that I wonder if that won't be counter productive in the end.I always expereinced that the best topping to any martial art was cardio, no matter if you do running, swimming, cycling or whatever, it will give you way better endurance and lower heart rates during the techniques execution.
>>106383>Been around since at least the Han Dynasty>Practiced in Shaolin, Wudang and Laoshan>Very old and respectable>Taoist Wudang lineageWhy people still eat up and propagate dubious claims about historical origins of martial arts is beyond me. Realise that most extant styles of Chinese martial arts are late Ming dynasty inventions by earliest and fuck off with the condescension please. Yes, what could be very loosely interpreted like a drunken boxing system was name-dropped in a Ming dynasty military treatise, so the concept itself probably isn't a modern movie invention. No, there is no evidence that any purported drunken ‘systems’ nowadays are at all a continuation of this style. Hell, most drunken boxing forms just exist within other systems, so calling drunken boxing a system is just laughable. I'm not even the anon you were replying to, and this pisses me off. Chinese martial arts history is already enough of a shitshow, with scarce primary sources outnumbered by bits of conflicting, borderline anachronistic oral tradition; and myth-perpetuating retards like you only make it worse. Maybe lay off the booze, and consider that baidu, your teacher and wuxia movies aren't always reliable sources of information.
>>106512>mingThe earliest surviving written mention to Drunken Boxing was in the Song dynasty when writing about the folk hero Wu Song, even then it was presented to the audience as if they were already familiar with what Drunken Boxing was, and Wu Song was described as being a "master" of the 8 Immortals Drunken Boxing technique. Implying he had already dedicated a great deal of time learning the style from someone else. Oral traditions saying Drunken Boxing goes beyond the warring nations period, and all the way back to the Han is dubious at best, but it has to be recorded that that IS the oral tradition. There are no written mentions of it before the Song (both dynasty and Wu), but that doesn't mean that oral tradition should be thrown out the door, and the truth is probably somewhere in between. Drunken Boxing likely came into being, in some form in the south, during the late Warring Nations period, but didn't solidify it's existence and reach any kind of national renown until the Song dynasty. Both Shaolin and Wudang/Laoshan practice 8 Immortals Drunken Boxing techniques, but OF FUCKING COURSE they aren't move for move identical to someone practicing over 1000 years ago. No martial arts stay the same for ever. They evolve over time from individuals adjusting the style to the kind of combat that they've been experiencing, as well as the obvious degradation of knowledge when passed between master and student. Drunken Boxing is a notoriously underground fighting system. It was not taught in the Army, it was not taught by the average school. Drunken Boxing is historically the art of beggars, thieves, fools, farmers, and monks. Not the kind of people to keep extensive written histories and lineages lying around, nor are they the kind of people to go out of their way to boast their abilities and enter large organized martial arts competitions. You're complaining about people propagating misinformation and yet you barely provide any information at all in your post
>>106512Also, yes of course drunken is in other systems. Have you ever even heard of chinese martial arts before? Without even being funny I have seen legitimate practitioners of Tiger Mantis, Tiger Crane, Horse Snake, and Chicken Duck. (the very old and respectable Chicken Duck system). They love to mix things together. An eagle stylist may have a drunken eagle form. A monkey stylist may have a drunken monkey form. But a drunken stylist will have their base drunken sets, drunken animals, drunken weapons, all of which align with and are bound by the theory and principles of drunken boxing. It is absolutely a system in and of itself, one that has bled into many others.
>>106529There's just so much retardation here that it can't be anything other than bait, so I'll address the obvious and move on.>Wu Song>Master of 8 immortals drunken boxing>Have you ever even heard of Chinese martial arts before?Now I wonder if you even understand Chinese. The character of Wu Song as a folk hero is being a good enough fighter to wrestle a tiger drunk, but that doesn't mean he does drunken BOXING, and that's purely on a literary standpoint. By your logic, there would be a long spiritual succession of drunken boxing at the local Irish pub every Friday evening. He's also consistently portrayed as a Buddhist, why the fuck would he use a system based on a different religion. Yes, there was a lot of exchange between Taoism and Buddhism, but not to the point of sharing deities. And before you bring up the Tang dynasty Eight Immortals of the Wine Cup, those guys were poets, scholars and politicians, largely removed from religion. Would be strange for a fighting style used by 'beggars, thieves, farmers and monks' to hold a bunch of posh scholars in such high regard, wouldn't it? I'd ridicule the idea of a beggar's/thieves' style further, but it does a pretty good job on its own, assuming channers can tell Jin Yong novels from reality.You know what my theory is? All religious labels attached to Chinese martial arts are products of largely illiterate martial artists trying to legitimise their style, by laying claim to whichever folk hero/religious figure happened to be more locally revered. It's possible that martial artists happened to be religious, but claiming that the biggest grounds of religious practice they came from were also historical training grounds (ie Wudang and Laoshan) is just Wuxia fantasy, narratively pushed by the commies to undermine their religious significance.>you barely provide any informationIt's not my job to inform you, nor yours to inform me; but I think it's a shared responsibility to not spread utter bullshit.
Can some explain the differences in the different types of karate? They all look the same to me except Kyokushin having low kicks..
>>106885Pretty sure all of those are made up from Kobra kail.
>>106383Lmao, drunken boxing gets beat the fuck up by strip mall karatekas.https://youtu.be/p5loQCc8ALA
>>106563Wu Song is described as a master of the 8 Immortals Drunken Boxing technique when he learns swordplay from Zhou Tong. Shaolin temple actively practice their own Buddhist style of the 8 Immortal Drunken System. Why? I don't know Ask a Buddhist.
>>106885Shotokan: Low stances and its very "rigid", supposedly aiming for "power" and direct techniques, the vast majority of schools are sport karate.Shito Ryu: Don't have so much idea but its supposed to have more "natural" stances, but probably I'm wrong.Goju Ryu: "Hard and soft" techniques, super low stances, focus on breathing and body conditioning, the style overall have more "ancient" vibes than other styles (I don't have other word).Wado Ryu: Mayor focus in "grappling" or at least some shitty pseudo-grappling.
>>106885The major distinctions can be broken down better by culture than style because alot of styled overlap>Okinawan vs Japanese Japanese karate has a lot more high kicks than Okinawan. Okinawan has more old school conditioning methods think old guys literally punching rocks and hitting their toes with wooden boards kind of things at the extreme maybe using archaic weights or stabbing sand and makiwara at the less extreme. The kata in Japanese karate kata is also more like a dance in general than Okinawan where they care more about bunkai and applications still (note I am not arguing that these bunkai are all practical or that Okinawan karate is super deadly secret or anything like that though)>Within Japanese karate: Point karate vs knockdown karateKnockdown styles are for the most part born out of kyokushin and are usually like muay thai but with crazier kicks and no face punches obviously although there are some exceptions to this. The knockdown styles have much more emphasis on physical toughness obviously with alot of modern conditio ing methods ontop of still doing some of the old school Okinawan wackiness on top of that. The point styles are stop and go like fencing and usually are not full contact although there are some which are and use armor and such. Knockdown karate styles are also heavily tighed to Japanese and Dutch kickboxing and in Japan certain fighters like Andy Hug were adopted culturally by Japan because of his knockdown karate background. On the rare occasion that point karate style guys make the move to combat sports their way of fighting is virtually the opposite of knockdown karate guys. They fight at a very long range whereas kyokushin people are very much in the pocket fighting. Think Bas Rutten vs Lyoto Machida basically.
>>107059Cont>American vs Japanese karateObviously there is the distinction that there are a lot of mcdojos in America, but disregarding that the way point karate is done in the USA is very different than Japan, because of the ties between taekwondo in and karate in the USA. The difference can be boiled down to that in most of the world the point karate meta is blitzing punches in the USA its sidekicks. The tendancy to use a lead leg sidekick continued once American point karate guys started kickboxing. See Stephen Thompson style compared to Lyoto Machida to see the difference.
>>107030>Zhou TongMan wasn't even in the original Water Margin, and wasn't attributed as a teacher of Wu Song until the Qing dynasty, an idea introduced by Wang Shaotang, master of Yangzhou style storytelling. STORYTELLING. In fact, all evidence that Zhou Tong had any martial arts skills beyond being a legendary archer comes from works of Qing historical fiction. This is all accessible information on English wikipedia by the way, so your inability to read Chinese doesn't come close to excusing this level of retardation. >Shaolin templeAh yes, because the modern day Shaolin Temple is totally a living continuation/accurate representation of what was historically Shaolin, and definitely not a glorified tourist attraction populated by cosplaying wushu athletes and salesmen, as part of a government effort to dilute Buddhist practice by occupying the historical site and market the largely invented traditions of 'Shaolin culture' as a cultural export overseas. Please, I'm begging you, use more than one brain cell at once. I know it's an unreasonable demand for you, considering most of them died from the cumulative effects of alcohol poisoning and CTE, but I want to believe that the average channer is still capable of some critical thinking.
>>104582>silat>>104664there are some silat books in libgen and google books, might be useful for you. Silat itself is as diverse as Kung Fu is, but most modernized Silat forms are pretty similar, so hope you can practise by yourself at home before coming to class to get reviewed
anyone have any thoughts on Pak mei? the style from the game Sifu.
>>109126Ranton made a video about it and it's pretty good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nPX1nC6e6QToo bad there isn't anything more to it because the principles it follows sounded nice but it's probably just marketing
>>106885I find it funny that the head instructor of my tang soo do school uses the fist and dove patch as their independent organization's logo and he loathes grappling and throws yet the defining feature of wado ryu is that it's a blend of karate with traditional jujutsu with a heavy focus on grabs and throws.Funnier still is that because of my hapkido background if I were to blend all the stuff I know into one thing it would look somewhat similar to wado ryu only with some western boxing and wrestling thrown in the mix.
>>113200i'm thinking about trying out this wadoryu school near me. wado-family com (greenville) i'm a 27 y.o. layman, but it looks legit to me. think i should go?
>>107056>Shito Ryu: Don't have so much idea but its supposed to have more "natural" stances, but probably I'm wrong.It's very kata heavy and has deep stances like shotokan but in practice/sparring encourages you to stand up more and square up with your opponent with less side facing stances.
>>113113this guy is fucking unbearable
What's the complete list of Koryu that transitioned to Budo?E.g:JuJutsu -> JudoJuJutsu -> AikidoKenjutsu -> KendoIaijutsu -> IadoJojutsu -> JodoKyujutsu -> KyudoShuri Te -> ShotokanShaolin Kung Fu -> Shorinji KempoWhat other arts made the transition?
fellas I'm 29, if I start now, is it too late for me to become the strongest organism on earth?
buying new tai chi sword tonight. has anyone ever bought from loong sword before?
>>107059Besides conditioning their toes for kicks, Okinawan karate has boshi-ken AKA "the thumb punch" as well as Tuite (stand-up grabbing techniques akin to Jujutsu). These are also the main differences between Okinawan and Japanese karate though eclectic styles like Kyokushin originally incorporated wrist locks (Daito Ryu Aikijutsu) and groundfighting (judo) in its Goshin Jutsu (Self-defense) curriculum.
>>120395That all depends on how good you are a genetic engineering.All the karate in the world won't stop a grizzly or gorilla from being able to literally being able to rip you arm off and beat you to death with it when they are feeling mildly grumpy.
>>120837>All the karate in the world won't stop a grizzly or gorilla from being able to literally being able to rip you arm off and beat you to death with itbullshit, my hook can 100% knock a bear out
>>120411Looks beautiful, didn't know Tai chi used swords in Katas, that's pretty cool.
>>121097Prove it. I would love to see such a thing, and if you could prove it then I would become your paying student in a heartbeat.
>>120411got new sword today. It's fucking nice. 2 maybe 2 and a half pounds without the scabbard. Great weight and a thick non flexible blade, maybe 6mm thick in the foot above the grip. It's sharp for the last two inches of the blade and the point is really strong I've already stabbed it into an archery target and it sunk 8 inches in it no problem. The pommel is very solid and so is the hand guard. If you smack the pommel the blade has a nice spring to it and the blade flexes firmly if you put it on the table and push down on it. They've done a good job with it. Overall I give it 9 stars out of 10. There is some wood glue just poking out from some of the fittings on the scabbard that I'll have to clean up myself, but besides that A+
>>121097reminds me of an argument two of my buddies got into in the army where one claimed he could take a kangaroo in a fight. The other guy got super worked up telling him kangaroos are too strong and would break his ribs with one kick. But my buddy simply said he'd get his back and take the kangaroo to the ground. In his words "kangaroos don't got any ground game" and I'm gonna be honest, I think he's right. I don't think kangaroos got any ground game
>>121446Their clinch game be on point though.
Im thinking of transitioning from muay thai to a more traditional style. Im thinking between Kyokushin, Jow ga kung fu, and FMA. Any suggestions?
>>121476jow ga isn't bad. I've competed against them and fought them in tournament. The people I've met from their school's have always been good traditional kung fu artists and decent people.
>>121477what do you practice? did they have cool/effective techniques?
>>121477the jow ga school also has sanda/sanshou which im very interested in
>>121478I practice southern praying mantis. I have always beat them in contact sparring. But they're good fighters. They've beat me in forms before though. In open hand forms and in weapon forms. It's a good school. Don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure the one student I lost to in an open weapons division was a jow ga student using tiger hook swords. I did not see his performance however because I came right off another division and straight into that one. He must've done really good because I'm pretty sure 3rd, 2nd, and 1st were all 9's and were separated by really minute mistakes. In my chain whip form my whip kissed my pant leg just barely two times throughout the form, and that's what did me in for 3rd. Tiger hook sword jow ga guy took 2nd and a deer antler guy from some other school got first. Pic related is tournament. Also most good kung fu schools practice contact sparring or sanda. If your school doesn't have you hitting someone else, then you need to go somewhere else.
Any mid-tier "may work" kung fu styles?Maybe Hung Gar?
>>121476Kyokushin and FMA would both translate well. FMA has weapons work as well as bare hand which is fun.If you find a Dan Inosanto lineage school or class they should have a combined Jeet Kune Do/FMA class. That's what my school has a more traditional class to cross-train with Muay Thai/BJJ/wrestling/MMA.
>>121757I've studied a lot of different styles of kung fu. All of them are mid on their own, besides a small few. All styles have their advantages and their weaknesses. You shouldn't just adhere to one, but learn as many as you can. Hung Gar is a good style and not bad by itself. But you practice hung gar with longfist and a northern style and suddenly you have a very well rounded punching, kicking, and limb locking combination. Add some shiau jiao or wrestling in the mix and you have a pretty well rounded set up. The form or the style is just where you draw your applications from, you have to put them together in real life to make them work. If you're specifically asking about something that mostly sucks, but has a few good applications. Turtle would be a good example. 99% of turtle is basic strikes, blocks, and kicks you'll learn in other styles of kung fu. But there are a handful of really brutal turtle techniques and some ground work that make the whole thing worth learning in the first place. It's a kind of rock paper scissors. Turtle is particularly geared towards defending against chicken kung fu and it's constant fucking attacks at your feet, knees, and dick. You can take those turtle applications which work particularly well against those kinds of attacks, and whip them out should the opportunity come up. I couldn't find pictures of turtle or chicken stylists doing anything because it is sorta rare and stuff like that's some niche shit that doesn't make it through the search algorithm
>>121769I actually double checked and theres no kyokushin anywhere near me,the only karate is shorin ryu and shotokan :(The jow ga place teaches sanda/sanshou though which i think would complement my muay thai very very nicely
>>121826Sandra/Sanshou is Chinese Kickboxing. I don't think it would compliment Muay Thai that much since its more modern with a lot of MT techniques.BJJ is the classic thing to pair with Muay Thai. Not very traditional. Tho I would argue Gi BJJ is more a traditional art (I.e. concerned with propagating traditions not just pure combat or sports) compared with no-Gi, kickboxing, boxing, and even MT.
>>121795>turtle styleOh no, not this shit again. You blame the algorithm for obscuring info, I blame the style for not existing. If these were genuinely obscure styles that existed and made it out of China, there would at least be some reputable Chinese sources on them. There aren't any. You make kung fu look and sound more retarded than it needs to be. Go away.
>>121934I believe theres a master performing turtle style in masters of china dvd from the 70's. There's also a pretty good amount of turtle qi gong forms on youtube from the wudang academy and others, but I didn't include pictures of those forms since I didn't think it was relevant. Kung Fu has a lot of regional variation and myriad of styles. Chicken, duck, turtle, rat, scorpion, centipede, spider, deer. There's all kinds of weird shit.
>>121941Oh I know there's a lot of weird shit. I know for sure some of the listed are very legit. I'm saying that fixation on alleged animal styles is deeply retarded when they fall into one of the below categories:>a) The style is named due to dialectical and religious quirks between region to region, and the animal aspect doesn't really help understand its technical content>b) The 'style' is a modern invention with few sensible applications, the result of civilian martial artists trying too hard to get government attention and enter modernised wushu framework>c) The style doesn't exist, and was made up by Westerners to fool other, more gullible Westerners.Turtle qigong leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially when the turtle is just a catch-all for longevity, and represents very little about style or lineage. The only book I found on 'Turtle-Crane' Qigong explicitly sys its methods are taken from Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua. And don't get me started on the history of modern Qigong methods, outside of the Wuqinxi and Baduanjin they are all dubious at best as Taoist cultivation methods, with their connection to martial arts being even more of a stretch. I'm not surprised that there would be a turtle style in a DVD from the 70s, the government push for sport wushu was beginning and they struck gold with animal styles and drunken forms, helped by cinema at the time. Of course they'd try to hawk shit like that. That doesn't make it legit. There's a reason scorpion and toad forms don't exist outside of Shaolin Temple performances.I know you want to show that you possess some secret obscure knowledge about these styles, but until you can prove legitimacy of these claims, I'm going to call bullshit. At least give us a name or lineage, or a fucking geographical region.
>>104425Probably the most underrated art
>>121968I'm not trying to show I have some obscure knowledge, I'm just posting in the thread. I just know what I've learned and what I've seen second hand. My school is a wudang school, but Sifu was an instructor through Chin Woo as well. My Sifu's Sifu was the late Lu Zijian. While Sifu studied under other masters in China in the 70s and 80s, most of the instructors he studied under were from wudang mountain, shan dong region, or hong kong. I got a few turtle forms and some of my fellow students have some as well. I was told it works well against chicken, duck, crab, and rat since they all attack the tops of the feet. There are also turtle techniques specifically geared towards eagle techniques that remind me a lot of ground kung fu you see in snake. My Sifu passed away in January of this year at the ripe old age of 67 because of a sudden illness. I wish I could ask him where the he learned the system that my few forms are from, but I can't. All I know is the two systems of turtle I learned were Little Green Turtle and Blue Turtle. The guy asked a question about mid tier styles that "may work". In my opinion compared to other styles I know, and how turtle applications match up against them, it's mid. But some niche applications have their place. My Sifu would only go into how he learned the form if it had an interesting story or a specific application he really liked. Most of the time it was just "let me show you a form" now you tell me who's your school.
>>122036>Lu ZijianThat explains everything. The legendary Lu Zijian, who claimed to be 120 years old at his passing a decade ago; and apparently beat to death a Western boxer by the name of 'Tom John' in an intense, hour-long bout. I'll translate and transcribe his televised recollection of the bout for all those interested:>Lu Zijian: 'There was this Allied (?) Commander named Marshall, who kept a martial artist around him who was a Western boxing champion by the name of Tom John. In the past, every Chinese Nationalist military division had their own martial arts instructors, with the pay getting better as one rose up the ranks, up to 200 silver dollars. At that time, (John) would summon one of these Chinese instructors to spar with daily, knocking their teeth out or rendering them unconscious. He laughed, "So this is the extent of your Chinese Kung Fu!" Feng Yuxiang had a bodyguard by the name of Li Weihan, who didn't stand for this, and decided to fight him for good. They fought four rounds, until (John) broke his jaw with a punch, causing it to swell up.' >Journalist: 'His bodyguard?'>Lu Zijian: 'Yes.' (unintelligible)>'Reluctantly, Feng Yuxiang summoned me, and told me, "Brother, you take care of him for us." I said, "That's our guest, it matters not whether we live or die. As entertainment, for fun, as martial exchange," I said, "I want to sign a waiver, I won't be held responsible if he dies." Marshall upon hearing this said, "You, Lu Zijian, fighting my bodyguard?" I was around 170 cm in my youth, and he was around 190 cm, his arms were thicker than my calves. Tom thought: "You're a martial arts instructor, I was just thinking of sparring with you!" and signed the waiver promptly. I gave Marshall my signed waiver and we went to the peak of Nanshan, in Chongqing, for our match.' (cont.)
>>122036>'We fought for an hour without a victor emerging; he did have some skill after all. My sleeves were torn to shreds by his grips. One of my students sensed I was struggling to win, and so he shouted, "Teacher, Baguazhang!" I was reminded of it, and so I started walking around him; as Bagua walks in circles. Standing in the middle, he was forced to turn with me, and I struck him whenever he couldn't keep up; plus I spun only in one direction, causing him to become dizzy easily. Later I saw that his eyes were giving way and he was sweating from his head, and with a mighty shout, his hands lifted as I struck him with a palm, hitting his stomach so hard that he vomited blood from his stomach, and passed out. He was sent to the hospital unconscious, and when he came to, he said, "Lu Zijian was everywhere around me." >Journalist: (laughing) 'That's a bit much.'>Lu Zijian: (ignores his remark) 'They prepared to fly him back (for treatment), but he died before he could leave Chinese borders.'I don't know about you, but between a 'Tom John' beating the shit out of friendlies and ripping sleeves up by punching them, Master Lu somehow forgetting to use the main style he trains in until his student pointed it out, and a man's stomach exploding with a single palm strike, I think 90% is a very generous estimation of the proportion of bullshit here. To add insult to injury, the man also has falsified a number of letters from Feng Yuxiang addressed to him, by passing his amateur calligraphy off as Feng Yuxiang's. There's no point in addressing any claims he makes about fighting 'ronin' either, the anachronisms speak for themselves. Good job, you've trained under the student of a recognised charlatan. And also:> now you tell me who's your school.Hey, I'm not the one making tall claims, the burden of proof is on you, dipshit. Any moron with some fluency in Chinese and a relatively undamaged brain can scrutinise your claims with little difficulty.
>>122084lol tall claims. I said a style of kung fu simply exists, one you havent personally experienced. You then deep dive into my sigungs history to make a legal case for it lolol. My dog you just sat yourself down and read my sigungs bed time stories all night. There's no burden of proof on me lol. I find it ridiculous I've got you this worked up over a turtle form.
>>122083also that's a good reaction image for sifu lu thank you
>>122107It is a tall claim to say that there are legit striking styles that focus on attacking the top of the feet, or that a number of random animal styles have legitimate lineages and somehow counter one another, when there are no reliable non-anecdotal sources for them anywhere, in any language. It's stuff like this that stops modern martial artists and the average person from taking us seriously, along with your Sigung's pathological lying and nationalistic fairytales. To be honest I wouldn't gotten as annoyed if it was just the animal styles, but knowing that Lu Zijian's teachings have made it overseas fills me with despair for my culture. Maybe we never did make it past the mindsets of the Boxer and Taiping Rebellions, all that's changed since are the names and forms of our deities.
>>104519If bjj has to be lumped in wi…Oh wait is the Japanese one, nvm
>>106563I don’t care about traditional martial arts but you seem to have destroyed this poor man’s fantasy
>>122124anon I think you need to go touch some grass. I think you take yourself way too seriously.
>>122260What a non-responce and a sad attempt at dismissal
>>122266>fills me with despair for my culture>never made it past the mindsets of the boxer and taiping rebellionsI think you're being a melodramatic book nerd. Just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because someone does something different than you doesn't mean it's wrong. My kung fu works. I win tournaments and I win fights, that's all I've ever been concerned with. Maybe your Sifu was a librarian and a genealogist. But mine would just say "here let me show you a form". I think it's interesting to get a different opinion on your lineage, and I think it's hilarious Sigungs name generates this much butt hurt even now. But anon I'm not gonna stop posting in the thread or practicing my kung fu. Me and another senior student will open a new school soon, Sifu Lu's teachings aren't going anywhere so we're gonna have to learn to get along. If you're in the US and go to any of the big tournaments we will meet each other. It isn't going to accomplish anything arguing about things like turtle on here, since we're both dug in to our positions. But in person I could certainly give you a demo.
>>122260I do. That's why I'm here on /xs/. Please return to the plains of plebbit where you belong.
>>122267I know that smell. It comes from the wrong end of a farm animal. Big piles of it.
>>122267>I think you're being a melodramatic book nerdWhy thank you. I should think years of trying to recover useful ideas and historical research on Chinese martial arts to achieve a meaningful understanding of my cultural history, would make me one. God forbid I actually care about the things I study. >now you tell me who's your school>maybe your Sifu was a librarian and a genealogist>I think it's interesting to get a different opinion on your lineageIt's funny how you think any of my ideas are based on my teachers', or have anything to do with my lineage. At no point did I bring up my lineage either. Can practitioners not have ideas outside of what they have been taught? This just reinforces my opinion that Chinese culture is now fucked beyond repair, when all it's exported overseas is a blind, Confucian obsession with piety, tradition, along with an active discouragement of critical thinking. /sci/ would adore you as a case study on the efficacy of non-invasive lobotomies.>Sifu Lu's teachings aren't going anywhere>I'm not going to stop posting in the thread or stop practicing my kung fuAnd what made you think that was my intention? I obviously can't. I just think there isn't enough pushback against dubious claims in this thread, and I like being the change I want to see. That, and I want to spread the good word about Sifu Lu being an established liar and charlatan. It's a known fact in kung fu circles in China, nothing wrong with a bit of overseas exchange right? >It isn't going to accomplish anything arguing about things like turtle on hereYou're on /xs/, my dear Ameritard. No one's trying to accomplish anything meaningful here, and if that's what you're after then you're in the wrong place. Go open your school, and make Sigong Lu proud. You're clearly an ideal successor to the old scammer's arts.
>>122272lol mr.critical thinker go be that change you want to see in the world
>>122267What tournaments my guy. Where are these secret kung fu tournaments in the United states? Please be specific.
>>122277icmac orlando and the great lakes kung fu tournament are the ones we try to hit every year. In the past we went to wong >>121484 and yang every year too but since both men have passed their schools haven't hosted any tournaments
>>122285forgot pic from icmac. Probably won't make it to icmac next year personally, but I will make it to great lakes
>>122267>>122272You guys both need to chill out. The fact that anyone does kungfu at all anymore, bullshido or not, should be a relief. Imagine if this was just another MT or BJJ thread...
>>122296While I appreciate the call for calm, I might honestly prefer if the living tradition had died out. I sincerely believe that kung fu would benefit from a more HEMA-esque approach to its practice, instead of following what some self-purported master says with little question. There is a wealth of historical texts that paints a different picture of Chinese martial arts than what it presents itself now, which gets overlooked in favour of aesthetically emulating a Shaw brothers production. But I suppose it's good that some genuine knowledge survives, even though it means that a million more phonies rise in their wake.I'm also not concerned about whether what anon does is bullshido, or if it works. I'm not the anon heckling him about his tourneys, frankly I couldn't give less of a shit about his skill, or ability, or achievements. What I am addressing is the fact that his information comes from a lineage of charlatans, who he is more than enthusiastic to embrace without question. I don't blame him so much as the line of thinking he seems to embody; if anything he is less willing to mislead others as much as he is to be misled himself. And even if anything of what he's said has been reliable, referring to an untraceable lineage which offers no frame of reference in response to someone asking for a 'mid-tier kung fu style' is hardly helpful. I would attack the idea of modern 'Wudang' lineages further, but at this point it'd be irrelevant. Historical legitimacy is dead, long live whatever the fuck people want to believe I guess. Yeah, esoteric styles definitely take decades to master when average life expectancy was lower than 40 at their time of conception. The most badass martial artists were monks of vegetarian religions subsisting off of donations. Members of a majority agarian society would definitely regularly risk injuring their hands and their ability to operate agricultural equipment so they could pierce windpipes with their fingers. Makes sense to me.
>>122313I'm not quite sure I get what you were trying to say in the last paragraph. So this might be out of context, from my understanding most martial arts in China (North) were originally weapons based. I don't think Shaolin teachings would ever have likely relied on finger jabs, those are probably just representitive of weappns techniques after government weapons bans.From my understanding of Taiji, the actual Shuai and Qin Na version, not the Qi Gong styles. The starting position for tui shou (probably misspelled that) is representative of two opponents having their shields pressed against each other in a battlefield situation. It's not actually recommended that you fight a fist fight in that stance. Likewise, a lot of the strikes into the armpits and ribs that people mock today were supposed to be stabs with actually weapons and aimed between the armor.I get what you're saying about a HEMA like revival but, I actually am really glad I found a legit continuation of Taiji.
>>122333Eh, I wasn't really attacking the idea of questionable strikes as much as I was questioning iron palm training methods there, but that wasn't made very clear at all. Poor phrasing on my part. I was just picking apart the most common myths in kung fu circles through a very cynical lens; myths which still get perpetuated by practitioners and teachers of legitimate lineages as part of oral tradition. Unlike what they say about Okinawa, I don't think there were widespread weapon bans in China, and even that narrative is being disputed in karate circles. I don't imagine it would've been practical to execute on any logistical level, considering the population and military strength at the time. Can't say I've heard of the tuishou-as-shield-fighting theory, seems interesting. I'm not a massive fan of it since the dynamics of grappling change quite a bit when you have to move around both you and your opponent's shields, but it makes for interesting food for thought. I've always just thought of sensitivity drills like that as leftovers from forgotten grappling rulesets, perhaps some kind of precursor to sumo, tegumi and ssireum, but I'm definitely biased as a grappler. Either way, I'd still say that not enough people examine kung fu from perspectives like yours; with focus on weapon use and retention; purely because people come looking for funky sports wushu or qigong energy woo-woo and get sold on exactly that, thanks to the cult-like dynamics in traditional transmission. Good on you for finding a decent Taiji school by the way!
>>122354Ah, I see your point now. I don't quite get some of those exercises either.Regarding the weapons ban statement, my understanding is that the Shaolin temple was purged of monks and weapons on a few occasions through history and so Shaolin doesn't have any direct continuation or lineage. I didn't mean to generalize to the whole population. I could be wrong though.Thanks I got really lucky!
What does all the other /badjointsbros/ do for knees, hips, back, etc? My knees and hips are absolutely fucked from the military and it makes martial arts pretty challenging sometimes because I have to do a lot of extra stretching and shit. I do a lot of massaging of my infrapatellar tendon and some specific knee exercises I learned in taiji class. I like putting my hands on my knees, with my feet together, knees slightly bent, and I circle my knees together both directions 20-30 times. It almost looks like trying to teach your grandma to twerk. I'll do basically the same thing but one knee at a time in empty stance too. I also found putting dit da jow on my knees after practice really really fucking helps. Ill put it on with a hearty slap and follow with massage and acupressure for 10-15 minutes. Things like side stance and x stance kill my knees sometimes, and if it wasn't for those knee circles, I wouldn't be able to get out of bed.
>>122809It's hard to say without knowing what's wrong with your knees but check out the youtube channel Knees Over Toes Guy.
>>122809Barbell strength training (start with the empty bar and progress slowly), compression wraps, ice, taking rest days, yoga & stretching, chondroitin & collagen supplements plus straight up eating animal joints on ribs & wings, and sports massages helped me.
>>122809squats and knee braces are what did the trick for me
Can a grown ass man with ZERO knowledge of martial arts start in his 40s or ill end up making a fool of myself like the crazy fat dude in Cobra Kai?
>>123418The guy who mocks the fool is the guy who doesn't try.The guy who doesn't try doesn't progress.The guy who progresses no longer fears the mockery of the guy who doesn't try.The guy who doesn't try becomes the new fool when the old fool knocks him out cold.
>>123418I started in my late 30s. It's fine you just need to be serious about recovery and nutrition.
>>123418>more than 40>still cares about how he's perceived by others when deciding on a matter that affects only himlooks like you have one more reason to start martial arts
>>123418When we had family classes in karate one of the grandma's decided it looked fun and joined...At 70 YEARS OLD!And she did fine despite never really doing it before. Sure, some modifications in training were required but she had a good time and learned just fine.
I don't know where else to ask this, here goes:Friend I been sharing about wanting to learn Goju Ryu Karate for some time and she keeps pushing me to learn Muay Thai instead. Her reason is>anyone who knows about standup fighting would know that Muay Thai is way more useful than KarateMy only reason for wanting to learn karate is, very, lame and it's Ryu.
>>123817Everyone thinks their martial art is best, but it's more often about personal skill and experience than the style itself.
>>123845People say that but more often than not Karate dojos are pretty shitty at developing actual fighting skills.
>>123817Listen to her and do Muay Thai or Kickboxing.
>>123817She's trying to dissuade you from karate because what this guy said >>123877 is unfortunately true.However, there have been successful fighters with Goju Ryu bases. Robert Whittaker, the former UFC Middleweight Champion and current #2 guy, comes from a Goju Ryu background. Gunnar Nelson and Giga Chikadze were/are top 10 fighters in their weight classes and are goju ryu black belts as well.At the end of the day, you have to be realistic about your goals. If you want to actually learn how to fight, you're way more likely to find a good muay thai school than a goju ryu school. If you want to LARP as Ryu and don't care about being a fighter, then shoryuken all you want my dude.
>>123817is usefulness the thing you want to be caring about in the first place? you need to take a minute to reflect on what you want to get out of studying a martial art
>>123906Ryu is directly based on Mas Oyama. Would Kyokushin be a better style for >>123817 ?!
>>123939In particular, Mas Oyama's depiction in the manga Karate Baka Ichidai, along with his student Yoshiji Soeno.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshiji_SoenoYou can see the inspiration for Sagat too.
>>123939Problem is Kyokushin is not offered anywhere in my city. The closest thing is Goju Ryu after extended searching around. The only thing left for me to do is to visit the dojo and see if provides full contact sparring.Based on everyone's feedback (thank you all), I am going to commit to seeking out Muay Thai because my realistic goals is to learn how to fight and overall usefulness. On top of that there are more places that offer Muay Thai than Goju Ryu (there's only one and it's a 40 minute drive for me) that are only 10-15 minutes away from me.Time to larp as Sagat...
>>124060smart choice. the ppl that train at muay thai gyms tend to be p chill and u're much more likely to become a decent fighter once u've trained long enough at one of those (can be anywhere between 6 months and a couple years, depending on how often u train per week and how coachable/receptive to instruction u are). also there's no rank system in muay thai beyond instructor and student, so all students are equal under their instructor and can all learn from each other and there's no ego/power tripping going on between students. contrast that w/ the typical tma school w/ a hierarchy between students, where higher belts push around and look down their nose at lower belts (this was my experience at the old hapkido school i went to).if aesthetics are important to u, and what made karate so appealing to u in the first place, u'll be delighted to know muay thai is one of the most beautiful striking arts out there, from the cool, colorful, flashy shorts and sometimes gloves, down to the ceremonial armband and headband, ritual dance, live wind instruments playing during matches - the techniques themselves often look wicked also.once u have a good foundation w/ muay thai as ur base style, u can always cross-train in a different art later on, so u can incorporate goju-ryu techniques into ur game, for example.
>>124106Sweet, I really appreciate your insight and will take it to heart knowing Muay Thai will help the aesthetic appeal too. I'm already an active weightlifter doing cardio and near the physique I perceived is fighter material; at 15% BF and working my way to 12%. Now it's a matter of finding what fits my routine and take the time to research.Thank you all.
>>104352>What is your artMy azn TMA used to be shorin-ryu karate, but presently I practice judo.>What is your grade/belt levelI was promoted to san-dan in shorin before I relocated away from my dojo. I am presently yon-kyu in judo. I could probably be ni-kyu by now, but getting belt grading organized in this part of the country is a bitch and a half.>What is the most important lesson it has taught you?Karate's most important skills imparted to me were distance control and how to manage head and core defense on the fly. If I had to pick one great lesson from judo, it's been how to fall without getting hurt or how to get out from under somebody without relying on raw muscle.
Does anyone supplement their taiji with BJJ practice or other combat arts?I've been practicing Chen style for years. Finally got into the Chen Yu game but am totally isolated from any fellow taiji players; I'm learning online with my teacher on the other side of the continent and all we have here otherwise is a (possibly inactive) CMC Yang school. In terms of getting good contact and branching out a bit locally, I'm interested in BJJ or Judo.
is it autism?
>>124619can be, can not beEast asian martial arts used to have normie appeal.
>>124617I'm not sure if I'm the only other Taiji person here, never heard anyone else talk about it.My experience has been that BJJ has only really been useful for guards, yet my personal opinion is that when it got to the ground western freestyle or catch wrestling have been more useful in establishing position.None of the BJJ joint locks that I have seen have been different to the Chin Na I have practced so BJJ felt kind of like doubling up on what I already knew. Catch wrestling has a very different approach to Chin Na though, there can be a lot to learn there.I'm really curious who your instructor is online, care to tell?
>>124648>>124617I can only guarantee you, from having practiced a form of "light MMA" for 7 years, that the best you can do is loosen up and learn from the most versatile source you can - or from all sources, better said.You build your own personal arsenal of techniques, the one that suits you best.There can always be arguments of which do work better, but in the end, it's just how you express you energy that counts.
ITT autists sperg out over which kung fu style is more effective, not realizing height and weight determine 99% of all encounters
>>124692You've literally said nothing.You've "humble bragged" and added nothing to the conversation.Go to an MMA thread and endorse yourself there.
>>124718That's actually quite good bait. I had to look at what you wrote for more than a couple seconds to realize that you are a fucking massive faggot.
>>124648Thanks for your perspective. I'd taken a few BJJ classes before and found it pretty cool. So far it has really been the only opportunity to try and put taiji into practice for me... and primarily during stand up which didn't happen so often. But rolling was fun and got me thinking of tension and strength etc in a practical context. Learning from a student of Nabil Ranne in the US. I went to a class in person where we did some applications drills which was great.
>>124725It's unfortunate that BJJ doesn't have more stand up, I know where I went rolling always started on the knees. Its a bit of a kill joy. Still it's somewhere to train so that's better than nothing. Taiji seems to be a solo pursuit now days, it's too hard to find a school and harder still to find one concerned with application.
>>124747Hence the meme, haha. I would always ask my BJJ friend to start from standup but he hated it, probably because he was focusing on passing guard.It's true that it's a largely solo thing and I hope that we're seeing the beginning of real fighting-oriented Taiji growth as CZK line grows in the US. Though Practical Method seems to be much more popular (and commercial) than CZK in general and it's still hard to find.
>>124856Yeah, I just don't get it. You'd think they'd see that IRL everyone strats on their feet. Memes for a reason, I suppose.Would you mind elaborating, what is CZK?When I was looking around the only Taiji stuff I've found online with any real practical usage is the stuff that YMAA publishes. Most of it is pretty basic though.
The Rec center here offers classes in Kuk Sool Won and Tai Shin Dou Karate. Does anyone have experience or opinion on these?
>>106381>OG Shaolin martial arts was based on Indian martial artsNo
>>125421Buddhism is literally an indian religion brought to China by non-Chinese monks who also taught physical techniques to the early Chan Buddhist community..
>>125422>who also taught physical techniques to the early Chan Buddhist community..There is literally no evidence of this bodhidarma is a purely literary invention and even he is only attributed to two sets of exercises based on Taoist not Buddhist sources. The martial arts of Shaolin temple have traceable secular often military origins with no actual connection whatsoever to Buddhism
>>125425You're probably right. Yoga is still decent cross-training for martial arts. My MMA gym literally runs a Yoga for BJJ class.
>>125360KSW is a hybrid style that, from all I've seen, is basically MMA with the base made up of taekwondo and hapkido. If you like kimchi flavored MMA, that may be worth your time. I have never heard of that karate ryuha.>>125427The historical Shaolin school was overwhelmingly a staff fighting system. Most of the empty-handed stuff that isn't straight pugilism and wrestling was invented later or part of a calisthenic routine from the days before modern gyms and weights. The Chinese were a relatively advanced culture and didn't base a lot of martial arts on the assumption of not having a weapon.
>>124995>>124995CZK is Chen Zhaokui. There's a lot of interesting history about his role in Chen Style, but basically his line which is being continued by his son Chen Yu (and in turn his son Chen Shi Wu), is more martially oriented and imo it puts all of the taiji principals into context really well.https://youtu.be/v_EOz7uOQjQhttps://youtu.be/Aa8P3MSaBeM
>>125452And by this I mean that within Chen Style there are different lines from different lineage holders or practitioners: Chen Zhaopi (Chen Village), Chen Zhaokui (Beijing), Chen Zhonghua (Beijing Practical Method though he isn't a member of the same Chen family and his style is quite unique), Chen style Xiaojia etc etc. Perhaps just as in Bagua there are different lines traceable to Dong Haichuan, in Taiji there are the 5 different styles and within those styles are different lines with qualities based on what each generation learns and teaches. Maybe you know this but first I think it's cool, second this diversity isn't often mentioned or is even kind of denied... which reflects certain problems in the world of CMA.
>>125452>>125464I have heard a bit about styles but the way I learned didn't include any sort of forms. More a single technique at a time sort of thing. That first video has a familiar technique to one I know, probably just different due to starting position. The second video, I have little idea about any of the usage there.I have heard that Chen and Yang were the only styles used for fighting and that the others are all chi exercises.
>>125488Historically all the styles are connected to fighting, it's just that different students learn differently so they teach differently. Maybe BJJ is headed similarly in that direction as it grows and people do it more for fun or exercise.
>>125601There are three main pedagogical trends in BJJ right now.1. The kind that's most popularized and is trained as kind of a kit of techniques for MMA2. The kind done by normies who want to "do martial arts" without getting hit and while getting aerobic exercise while still having self-defense application.3. The kind that's used to sexually assault women and young children.
>>125664Where do you learn number 3? I'm always getting beaten up by young kids and women. I need to level the playing field.
>>125601I know they all come from the same root but honestly a lot of the time when I see people practicing, neither I or they seem to have any idea what the martial application of the move would be.
>>125699I'm researching the styles other than Chen to understand this, but something that stands out to me is the connection between Yang style in the west now, and Yang style in the early 20s. Yang Chengfu's teachers taught in military academies, while Chengfu taught the public more broadly and simplified the form. That isn't to say he disregarded the martial side, as Beijing was apparently a hotspot for tough fighters at that time, though his simplification did make it more accessible to people, and he did make it a bit softer. Then Cheng Man Ching came along and simplified it even more. In his lineage some people focus on fighting e.g. Mario Napoli, but there is a special appeal to those more focused on the philosophical, spiritual, and meditative aspects of the art. Visualization, softness, and slowness are integral components of that and are attractive to those who are not interested in fighting application at all; the fighting application is treated as a kind of cool trick or goodie, or a way to highlight what are apparently flawed ways of thinking or fighting.As for the Chen Village line, because of the political situation in China during the 40s, Taiji practically died in the village - while people like Chen Fake were teaching in Beijing and his son Chen Zhaokui was on the way. In the 50s and 60s villagers like Chen Xiaowang learned what's called "Laojia", but the emphasis was on choreography for the sake of maintaining the art to at least a minimal degree, not application. It wasn't until Chen Zhaokui came to teach later (what the villagers called "Xinjia") that the villagers had learned more about application as well as new body mechanics. Basically this is to say that knowledge of application depends a lot on who taught and why, who learned and why, as well as what was happening. If people want to go deep they might want to look into lineage! And understand that Taiji isn't limited to form performance.
>>125725Thanks for sharing.I have seen some Taiji competitions on youtube, one of the guys apparently studied Laojia but I didn't know what that was until now.
>>125667>>125664Team Lloyd Irvin is the gym for you
>>106381The TKD guys who transitioned into Muay Thai were often phenomenal in my experience. TKD is good at distance but bad at close range, but it has strikes that are longer range than what are in MT and so it gives them a great arsenal of kicks to go with everything else.
is it actually possible to condition any fingers forward hand configuration sufficiently that it can be used in a fight? i feel like if I could do a cross at even 80% power without breaking my hand I'd just kill a guy with a liver blow.
>>126118Yes, but you'll lose sensitivity and fine motor control and probably regret it later in life.
>>126135That's not entirely true.Bone density exercises usually effect sensitivity, but ligament strengthening doesn't.
>>126136For some reason I thought "fingers forward" meant striking with the fingertips.
>>126181It probably does but the part of the finger that is most likely to break is the ligaments, not really the bones. So grip strengthening exercises should bulletproof his fingers enough to gouge eyes without breaking them.
>>126189The conditioning that TMA did to allow the fingers to hit most of the places where they're supposed to work after conditioning do work in part by deadening the fingertips to sensitivity and will also impact mobility in later life."You cannot master karate and help your grandchild with the jigsaw puzzle in the same lifetime."There are many instances where spearhands, secondary knuckles, or other unusual parts of the hand are used in patterns/forms to simulate an attack to softer parts of the body but they were expected to accompany training exercises like carrying big clay pots by the rim or thrusting the fingers into sand or pebbles.Perhaps gripwork that doesn't damage/deaden the hands would make eye pokes less of a self-hazard but I don't think it would be enough for some of these things like thrusting the fingertips into the solar plexus or hitting philtrum with the second middle knuckle.Most of these techniques aren't used in modern sparring not because of their danger to the opponent but because nobody is doing the body hardening classically trained to make it work. It would have worked fine for somebody who gave their life to a martial art in the 19th century but not so much for a normie doing it as a hobby or a sport. For them it's best to stick with closed fist, palm strikes, and maybe the ridges of the hind.
>>104425Looks cool but whats up with the gay face shields?
Wing ChunNo real levels, but practicing for 4 years now.It really is a gateway martial art to many fighting styles and other arts, like tai chi and shit.
>>126246>pro fighters who are literally paid to devote their lives to fighting 24/7 haven't realised this amazing secret classical techniques guiz!This is cope. I love TMA but at best you could argue people used knife hands, spear hands, finger pokes etc because fighting bareknuckle can lead to broken hands if relying on hard punches. Not because there is some semi-mystical training full time pros nowadays don't have time for.
>>126330Headbutts are legal in Kudo, hence the face shields.
>>126246Firstly, I didn't say to do those Karate training methods and secondly, I didn't say to finger gouge the solar plexus. So you're kind of arguing a different point.In Taijichuan there are eye pokes, throat pokes, tracheal squeezes and goin grabs. None of them really require any significant conditioning, if you can open a jar then you have the required strength. Despite that you could improve the damage of some of them by training with one of those metal coils that you can squeeze in one hand (the ones that fitness gyms have).I don't think anything as extreme as you've mentioned is necessary to fight with more involvement of the fingers.
>>126349It isn't that they haven't realized the secret, it's that it's not practical or worthwhile of a thing to train in sport. If you're going to be fighting gloved up or in wrist wraps anyhow, then what would be the point of finger conditioning to that extreme? Especially in something like MMA where you have to be a capable grappler as well.People really need to stop using "cope" as their favorite thought-terminating cliche.>>126365You don't need to condition your fists or shins either if you never miss the right mark or overcommit, but most people don't strike perfect against a moving target and that's part of the idea behind it.
>>126375I know that's the idea behind it but even on a fundamental level it's not necessary. My example of Taijichuan, we don't really strike those places, we grapple an opponent to tie up their arms then we can press or squeeze a target without any risk. Think like BJJ, where they isolate a limb so the other limbs can't help, then they attack the joints. It's similar but standing.Taiji also has kicks to unbalance or to soft areas, they're usually low or short arc kicks. Even with the strikes we don't really condition for hard impacts, we're just not aiming to stand back and trade thigh kicks like Muay Thai or Karate.I get what you're talking about but I'm debating the necessity of it. The persons original question was can you fight with fingers forward and an open hand grip without breaking those fingers. Most grapplers use open hands to begin with but the fingers forward part implies some degree of pokes. It's easy enough to get an upper hook, bend someone forward then eye gouge them without breaking unconditioned fingers.No need to wreck any part of the body to learn to fight.
>>126375Fair enough. Hopefully bareknuckle MMA expands beyond it's very small niche and we can see some of those techniques pressure tested.
>>126358That's understandable. I did a quick google search and the only place to train Kudo in the states it seems is a place in Colorado Springs. It's a shame it looks like a ton of fun.