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Is Wing Chun a good martial art? What are your thoughts??
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Not in my experience unless heavily cross trained to the point it doesn't resemble Wing Chun any more.

Some of the trapping techniques are ok in a stand up fight when used with other methods.

But in 30 years of mixed style competitions it hasn't produced a single champion who had it as their primary style or background.

It's adherents seem to be unable to tell movie fighting apart from real fighting.

It also has the least conditioning work of any style I have studied (Shotokan Karate, American Kickboxing, boxing, BJJ, K1 Kickboxing, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, MMA). It's proponents have no physical strength or cardio ability compared to people who do those other arts to the point I just couldn't see them lasting in a real fight..
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>>102630
No
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>>102636
> Not in my experience unless heavily cross trained to the point it doesn't resemble ___ any more.
this should be the default response to these sorts of eh martial arts. like yah, if you alter your punch to basicly be a boxing punch or your kick is now more of a thai leg kick in your “adaption” there comes a point where the term you yse is mostly just window dressing
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>>102630
everything good about it has been taken over and adapted to jeet kun do
>>
Almost all of the "bridging" sorts of striking is probably way better applied from the bottom position of groundwork, instead of as a standing style. The amount of people who would be interested and able in trying to adapt it to that are probably in the single digits, however.
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Something I never understood about it is it seems to specialize in rushing into get in super close, but sucks at clenching, anti-grappling, throws, throw-defense, sweeps, sweep-defense, etc. of all the things you would expect a style that wanted to get in and stay in super close would have.
It is just not optimized for the range that most of it's techniques and tactics are happiest.
At least from my perspective. I have never formally studied the art and only got to spar dues who were formally trained in it a few times, so I am probably quite ignorant of a few thing relating to it. But still, that is my general impression of the art.
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>>102670
>jeet kun do
bruce lee barely knew kung fu, he made movies
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>>102696
I think you're on the money. The chunner gameplan for that range doesn't make sense and they are obsessed with staying there on the centerline. You can beat up drunks with it, but you can do that with anything. Rapid-fire "chain punches" are video game logic. It is not a style grounded in reality.
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These stupid ass CCCP propaganda movies have given every retarded kung-fu fan a completely unrealistic idea that their shitty dated art is effective.

An average well trained boxer would fucking destroy someone trained in Wing Chun. Let alone Mike fucking Tyson or any of the other dudes Ip Man fights in these ffs.
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>>102879
CCP, not CCCP.
CCCP was the Soviet Union
CCP is Communist China.

Other then that I totally agree with you.
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>>102630
>decade after the decade people are asking if _ing _un is good
>the answer is still no
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>>102630
I defeated several wing chun instructors.

Protip: in chi sao, go for collar and elbow/judo clinch, then you can control them. Then, headbutt.
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>>102879
Yeah its hilarious how TCM delusions are still running strong in current year. It's like if someone saw anime and then decided they were going to argue to their very last breath with everyone around them that its real
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Pure Wing Chun gets dominanted by hardened martial arts
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>>102850
>>102696
It's not a sport and thus not about competition. Once you're close you hit eyes, neck or balls a weapon or whatever neutralizes the opponent. Another thing they focus is trying to find a way for crowd control which is partly futile but also gives some Jackie Chan vibes. I'd say that you can learn the getting close parts and crowd control strategies within some month and the rest of wing chun is just fooling around with other wing chun people rather than doing anything useful. Eventually your look out is making out with wooden dummies
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Spared my friend who trained in it and won with some boxing fundamentals so from light experience no.
Tbh with mastery it might not be bad but against muay that/ boxing naaah
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Wing Chun is not a complete system. Any experienced Chinese Martial Artist will tell you that. It lacks in limb manipulation, movement flexibility, and grappling. It's a fantastic art to learn some forms on the Wooden Dummy. You'll learn extremely effectual blocks and strikes that come directly straight at you on the center line. But really you should use Wing Chun as an addition to your practice. Long Fist or Praying Mantis would be a better, more rounded Chinese Martial Art. Where adding Wing Chun would only make you a better fighter.
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>>102879
I have to say for sake of semantics. Donnie Yen the actor is a very good Chinese Martial Artist and is trained in a wide range of Kung Fu techniques. It's also worth noting that the real Ip Man in history did %100 beat a load of Japanese soldiers who were trained in Karate and Judo. As well as defeating a semi-professional English Boxer.
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>>102636
> Not in my experience unless heavily cross trained to the point it doesn't resemble Wing Chun any more.
That’s sort of the impression I got from this video but maybe that’s what makes it “real” wing chun
https://youtu.be/tAvva9e2O78
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>>106511
>%100 beat a load of Japanese soldiers who were trained in Karate and Judo
>defeating a semi-professional English Boxer

I call bullshit. Couldn't find a single Chinese source that says any of that, and god knows they love embellishing bullshit like this. Stop wanting your favourite movies to be real.
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>>106511
>It's also worth noting that the real Ip Man in history did %100 beat a load of Japanese soldiers
So why didn't they just shoot him?
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>>106511

What's his competition record then? If he doesn't have a full contact combat sports wins losses records then you are being subjective by saying he is a good fighter. I can say my mom is a better fighter than him since there is objectively the same amount of evidence.
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>>106534
I'm guessing that anon was referring to when Ip Man worked for KMT intelligence during times of war, but that wasn't the Sino-Japanese war, but the Chinese civil war. The man was probably jumping and interrogating suspected socialists left and right, there's a reason why he refused to say anything about those days once he fled to Hong Kong. Still not a valid substitute for a fight record though, but would love to see it put to film:
>Ip Man ripping thumbnails off a restrained, screaming prisoner
>Clenches fist, struggling to contain his conflict
>Questions life and shows weakness to prisoner
>'Wtf has our country come to, pitting our own against one another-'
>'Fuck you, landowner scum, and the rest of your counter-revolutionary family too'
>Starts chain punching him in the face repeatedly
>Gets pulled away by colleagues
>Close-up of his face, angry and visibly holding back tears as he holds up a bloodstained fist
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>>106511
Donnie yens background is in judo, bjj and taekwon do, he didn’t even start training camp until he was preparing for his role as ip man. Why do king fu nerds feel the need to make stuff up? This is like Bruce lee and his le 500 street fight win record.
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>>106592
>*training CMA
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>>106592

Because they seem to have brought wholesale into the fantasy kung-fu movies sell and want to believe it's real. When actual unarmed combat looks nothing like kung-fu movies.

It looks like boxing, kickboxing, and MMA. It's messy and chaotic, highly dependent on hard physical conditioning, strength, and physical size. It comes down to a few simple techniques executed with brutality.

It requires you to actually get punched in the face and bleed, thrown around, choked out etc. It's literally the opposite of movie kung-fu and how CMA is taught or fetishisized.

On a subconscious level they know they are lying to themselves so are insecure. Like people instinctively know Jon Woo's Gun-Fu movies aren't what actual armed combat looks like. They know that the same is true for unarmed combat but are lying to themselves and don't want to admit it.
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I agree with >>106597, seems like a lot of people just want kung fu movies to be real. There's more than enough evidence that it's not the best use of your time if you want to learn how to fight. I can understand getting into it if you're obsessed with Chinese culture or think it looks pretty, but you shouldn't have any illusions about it. Even the guy who made Wing Chun famous in the west said it wasn't realistic. He would've told you to get into boxing or other stuff rather than traditional kung fu.
>>106592
Got curious and looked up more on Donnie Yen's background. It looks like he actually learned kung fu as a kid from his mom, then trained with the Beijing Wushu Team and won some gold medals in wushu competitions. So he does have a background in kung fu, mostly stuff focused on performances like Jet Li. But yeah, he didn't train in Wing Chun until preparing for movies. Donnie Yen would also tell you to practice other things if you're interested in realistic martial arts.
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>>106519
I'm guessing anon confused Ip Man with Huo Yuanjia from Jet Li's movie Fearless. In the movie, he fights a profession of foreign martial artists including a karateka and a western boxer. In real life, Huo maybe fought and defeated a boxer but it's controversial if it actually happened because there's conflicting sources.
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>>102630
Quality control in Wing Chun is wild. Some gyms can basically be kickboxing gyms while others are complete trash.
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>>106674
Seems like most Wing Chun schools are very poor, but some have more sparring than others and even compete. I've seen some a couple practitioners out there like Qi La La having some level of success using it, at least on an amateur level. And then there's rare people like Alan Orr and Francis Fong doing interesting work with Wing Chun along with other stuff on top of it. Those places are good, but they're also pretty far from standard Wing Chun.

From what I've seen, it shares a lot of issues with other traditional styles. It's not totally without value, but it's really hard to justify recommending it over more practical martial arts unless you find one of those rare schools that isn't anything like the average Wing Chun place.
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>>106700

I would say it only works cross trained with Muay Thai or Karate. If you then fight bareknuckle or in MMA gloves the Wing Chun parrying and trapping becomes somewhat useful. But by that point it no longer resembles Wing Chun..
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>>106700
Orr is a funny case. I'll give him credit because he has proven himself capable of training guys that win fights. Amateur stuff, but whatever. Thing is, it just looks like boxing to me. Once you get rid of all the trapping shit, the focus on centerline, the stupid arm punches, the fancy parries, it just looks like boxing with an emphasis on clinching range. Doesn't resemble stereotypical Wing Chun at all. But I mean, what's the point of doing all this chi sau shit if when you actually stand and bang, you just turn into a boxer? Wouldn't your time be better spent with more typical boxing training? The Wing Chun bits of his program seem like useless and ornamental baggage. It is "making Wing Chun work," but it's going out of your way to do that, and maybe to your detriment.
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>>106708
>But I mean, what's the point of doing all this chi sau shit if when you actually stand and bang, you just turn into a boxer? Wouldn't your time be better spent with more typical boxing training?
Yeah, I thought the exact same thing and almost added it to my post. You have to wonder if the effort is even worth it when there's already functional martial arts you could be spending your time on. I mean I do think it's kinda interesting trying to take styles and reform them, and maybe there's something you'll get something out of it. Or maybe you're just wasting your time reinventing the wheel, because you're too fixated on the idea of styles.
>It is "making Wing Chun work," but it's going out of your way to do that, and maybe to your detriment.
Basically this.
>>106707
>But by that point it no longer resembles Wing Chun..
Mostly yeah. I guess some aspects of it can be useful as a supplement like you're saying though. But I'm guessing you don't need to spend years on Wing Chun to pick those things up.

Wooden dummies are cool though.
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Dude with 1 Year of Wing Chun getting absolutely destroyed by dude with just *3* MMA lessons. Been telling your CMA dorks it flat out doesn't fucking work.

https://youtu.be/V5tz296uv-A
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>>106750
Are you the guy from the other thread with two weeks of training? Post a video of the same with judo, kyokushin, or tae Kwon do since those are all the martial arts you supposedly think you can take anyone in now.
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>>103119
Kek
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>>106754

Kek. U still mad faggot. MMA is objectively superior to those shitty web arts. Stay angry dork.
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>>106761
>mixed martial arts is superior to the arts that make up mixed martial arts
Ok
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>>106799

TKD shitty foot fencing
Kyokushin got knocked out by an average boxer since they don't have head shots

Boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ beat all. Everything else is pointless for actually learning to fight.
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>>106810
Ok go prove it.
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>>106820

There's 40 years of mixed style vs style competitions showing this. Those 4 styles in combination beat all (so including modern K1/Unified Kickboxing and no-Gi/submission wrestling). Other arts are fine for other reasons like self development or just because you enjoy them, but for actual hand to hand combat between 2 people that combination is the most effective use of your time by some distance.
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>>106866
I think metrics that should be added are:
How many fighters use this style? If two styles are equal in efficiency, the one with more users is more likely to produce a champion.
What is the competitive scene like for the styles? Is it the ones who can't make it competitively in their own style who switch to MMA, or is it strong competitors in their own style?

I also think style combinations are more interesting than primary style. What other styles did those 12 primary boxing champions train in compared to the 6 primary kickboxers or 4 primary muay thai champions? What other styles did those primary wrestling or BJJ champions train in?
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>>106866
I can tell you right off the bat that this chart is retarded and also wrong. 1 karate champion? Lyoto machida and GSP were both karate specialists. I’m not even going to bother to look at the rest

Also I’m guessing you’re not the guy I was originally responding to but he has less than a month of training and is convinced he could take a whole kyokushin or judo dojo. That level of retardation is different from saying some styles are more effective than others at the highest level of competition.
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>>102879
also wing chun does have footwork but the movies make it seem like all wing chun dudes just stands still
https://youtu.be/VoHl1abHikA
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>>107233

Dunno if it was me you were arguing with or another argument about the effectiveness of TMA that happens here. But literally no one ever said that. I have said full contact combat sports like boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, ADCC submission grappling, and MMA are more effective than kung-fu, karate, tkd, judo, aikido, and even IBJJF BJJ.

Someone with 3 weeks kickboxing will beat someone with 3 weeks karate, someone with 3 weeks MMA will beat someone with 3 weeks kung-fu, etc. Due to how they are taught. Not that a Kyokushin black belt won't beat someone new to kickboxing let alone an entire dojo.

So for most people for self-defense and learning to actually fight a better use of their time is to learn boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, submission grappling, or MMA. That doesn't mean TMA don't have value vs Western combat sports and modern hybrid martial arts, just that they are objectively less effective or efficient to learn for actually fighting in the short to medium term. Understand?
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>>102636

this, but the fact that it doesn't really look like wing chun any more isn't really a point against wing chun, good proper fighting just looks like fighting.

as the other guy said, its pretty good as a supplement to your foundations like boxing and wrestling.
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>>102696
theres lots of different schools of wing chun and its somewhat a lost and fractured art, doesn't have the benefit of centralization and popular competition like bjj.

three is anti grappling, clenching, throws, throw defenses, sweeps, sweep defenses. actually i would say wing chun excells the most as being helpful with grappling, although i am biased towards grappling my self so i see grappling in alot of things.

but yea, wing chun is primarily about super close distance, and so people often make the mistake of rushing in because thats their comfort zone.

thats one of the reasons why i say wing chun is a good supplement, should someone actually get that close to you naturally then it will help you, but you shouldn't rush in, you should just box them at a distance or do something else.
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>>102850
the chain punch excersize isn't supposed to be about actually punching people that way, its supposed to be an excersize to help train you to do continuous rapid fire movements one after another without stuttering. properly executed you aren't punching over and over again, you are just making that wheel motion while your hands are doing what ever they need to do in the fight.

but because traditional martial arts is fractured by a bunch of historical reasons that would take a while to get into, it is transformed into something retarded in alot of schools and depictions in the media.

T. 2 years of wing chun
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>>106509
wing chun is meant to be like the cliff notes of fighting and its addressed in a really academic way.

the pros is that it can help introduce really soft people to fighting and help harden them

the cons is that people can stay in that comfort zone and not go past it to more intense and realistic fighting.
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>>106735
it is useful to focus on delicate manuevers and subtleties in fighting.

but alot of kung fu fags get carried away and try to make fighting all about subtley and nuance and won't admit that sometimes you gotta just stand and bang.

but chi sau is legit a useful excersize. its not real sparring but it is comeptitive and a useful game.
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chi sau, and all the manuevers in wing chun which no one knows about because they all only know chain punch, are all extremely helpful for things like hand fighting in judo or bjj

T. i've done wing chun, aikido, bjj and kickboxing.
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>>107968
another pro is that there is academic and nuanced, and even energy (if you want to be a hippy fag about it which i am) components to fighting and while kung fu fags can get lost in the sauce, alot of western martial arts can neglect these, and that same man without sauce is lost.
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>>102630
Its interesting, but like the first guy said without crosstraining its useless. I've been training muay thai for a bit over a year and spar with a guy who does it and its like sparring a spazzy beginner honestly
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>>109221

My martial arts school's head coach, literally said today after the class with it in that for self-defense situations Wing-Chun shouldn't be used. Kek. He said it's just a bit of fun we do for something light in between kickboxing and BJJ lessons, and if someone starts with you to use basic kickboxing and primarily basic boxing at that.
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>>106799
>Mixing the best aspects of each and removing what doesn't work and isn't pratical is worse than the focusing on all of the aspects of one
Ok retard
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>>109931
MMA is not a system of martial arts in and of itself it’s a ruleset you double retard. There’s no “only picking what’s best and removing the rest” because what’s going to work best for an individual fighter is going to be different depending on their game. Even if you wanted to create an MMA specific system (an ultimate fighting style, if you will) you’re not going to actually create a superior martial art, it’ll just be another system to draw from.
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>>102630
I had done ving tsun for about 3 to 4 years so this is my personal experience. Is it a good martial art? Yes, it can be, no doubt. I grew up with Kyokushin and muay thai before jumping on the ving tsun train, and that made a huge difference in my opinion. As I already knew how to kick and punch and defend strikes and kicks, ving tsun can be considered a fine tuning martial art. It adds an extra layer to what you already know and changes the way you fight.
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>>109995

A lot of data shows that some styles are objectively superior to others.
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>>110025
There are arts better suited for real fighting than others (specifically combat sports that actually fight) but you’re leaving out the human component with autistic analysis like this. Like, is shotokan the best striking art just because machida dominated with it? No, because shotokan didn’t win machida was just an absolute madman. They even have cris cyborg listed when analyzing womens mma as if being a man beating the fuck out of women isn’t going to completely skew the data. None of this even matters though because mma isn’t it’s own martial art, you tard.
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>>110036

At no point did I say MMA was its own art. I'm not the person you were arguing with. What is objectively demonstratable is that some arts are more effective than others? And Wing Chun, Aikido, TKD aren't them by any measure. What can be further shown but is arguable is that it's only worth learning boxing, wrestling, kickboxing/Muay Thai, and BJJ.
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>>102696
I practice judo so my striking is nonexistent but, man if you ever come that close to me in a fight you basically did all the work for me. I feel like in a fight I have to go through hell and back to get my o goshi to work and go to the ground
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>>110669

In the Jeet Kune Do syllabus you use Wing Chun parrying and trapping to go into a basic standing submission from a kickboxing range. It's the one useful application I have seen of any Wing Chun techniques and even then it's only useful after being cross trained to the point it's not Wing Chun any more.

Weird art. Those Ip Man movies are responsible for a lot of people having an inflated opinion of their fighting abilities who are trained in it. Doesn't help its the primary Kung Fu style available in the West either.
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>>110672
>Wing Chun parrying and trapping to go into a basic standing submission from a kickboxing range

If you have video evidence then I'll shut up but this sounds like total horseshit. Standing submissions are so low percentage that they should never be your primary gameplan.
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>>110674

You're totally right. Our Jeet Kune Do instructor himself says 99% of your go to moves for any real self defence fight will be our boxing and kickboxing. The Wing Chun stuff in the JKD syllabus in his own words is just something we do for a bit of fun, and to use what we do in our kickboxing class for actual fighting.

Me saying the Wing Chun in the basic JKD syllabus is the one useful application of it, is like my personal opinion man. Even my own instructor says not to take it seriously and focus on standard boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, and BJJ techniques..
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>>102630
its very easy to determine the answer yourself about these sort of "its it effective" questions.

Do you see it in the UFC or MMA in any recognizable form? No? then its shit and a waste of time.
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>>110932
Arguing that would be assuming MMA has already reached its peak as a sport, which it hasn't.

It's also stupid because self-defense follows a different logic and things that would be stupid in sports-fighting are either viable or even outright correct in self-defense (and vice-versa).
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>>111011
Not him but while you may be correct in some specific cases, in most of the ways that matter the other anon is correct. Combat sports are going to make you better equipped for real fighting than camo pants or chop suey larp. There may be some stuff from weirdo niche systems that hasn’t been properly utilized yet but the layman isn’t going to be the one to figure it out. Just do combat sports.
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>>111068
I'm of the opinion of "start with combat sports, then figure out what you actually want". Someone that already has a good base will have an easier time finding out the good TMA places that actually creates fighters, and someone with a good base can make even a middling TMA school work for them if they know what they're doing with their training.

This doesn't make TMAs less valuable; onmce you've achieved basic fighting profficiency,the rest of your journey is customizing your fighting style to a way that works from you,and TMAs have tons of tools that other styles don't.

And, controversial take, but: If you care about self-defense, you'll get more mileage out of three years of combat sports followed by a lifetime of TMA than you will out of a lifetime of combat sports. Combat sports training leave some blind spots that can be dangerous if you believe this is all there is to fighting. These blindspots are fixable within combat sports schools themselves,but most places don't - just like fundamental functional fighting skills are possible to be developed in TMA schools,but most places don't.
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>>111080

Absolutely agree with this. Hence I think Wing Chun is useful *if* you already have a good kickboxing base. Even something derided like Aikido is useful if you already have a good BJJ base. The issue is people thinking arts like Wing Chun or Aikido make good bases. They also have other values like cultural preservation too.
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fucking communists jfc
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>>111444

Wing Chun primarily survived in Hong Kong. It's not Communist in any way, you fucking spaz.



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