[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vm / vmg / vr / vrpg / vst / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / pw / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / vt / wsg / wsr / x / xs] [Settings] [Search] [Mobile] [Home]
Board
Settings Mobile Home
/xs/ - Extreme Sports

Name
Options
Comment
Verification
4chan Pass users can bypass this verification. [Learn More] [Login]
File
  • Please read the Rules and FAQ before posting.
  • There are 74 posters in this thread.

08/21/20New boards added: /vrpg/, /vmg/, /vst/ and /vm/
05/04/17New trial board added: /bant/ - International/Random
10/04/16New board for 4chan Pass users: /vip/ - Very Important Posts
[Hide] [Show All]




File: image.jpg (38 KB, 640x480)
38 KB
38 KB JPG
Discuss Western Martial Arts. I.e. living non-HEMA arts with documented Western/European lineages.

Anymore to add to this list?
- Wrestling (Catch-as-Can, freestyle, Greco-Roman)
- Boxing (Bare Knuckle, amateur, professional, Savate)
- Fencing (foil, epee, saber, single stick - can this one be classed as living still?)
- Archery (target, field, clout, crossbow, flight)
- Shooting (multigun, bullseye, field, rapid, clay, running)

Add and discuss any you think fit the criteria (I.e. a living art with documented Western/European lineage).

Modern hybrid arts with mixed Eastern-Western lineges like Kickboxing, Submission Grappling; or historic reconstructed arts like HEMA are great but not what this thread is for.
>>
Would love to learn more about pugilism/bareknuckle boxing before the Marquess of Queensberry Rules became widespread.
But that might fall more into the HEMA category for your liking.
Modern bareknuckle is still done with wraps and usually uses modern boxing rules only without the gloves. So the way they fight is quite different from how they used to fight in bareknuckle according to records from the time.
>>
>>102204
It does, there’s HEMA groups who study old pugilism manuals.

https://youtu.be/cVYl1kL9_jQ

That is, unless you want too (God help you!) study bartitsu.
>>
>>102205
>That is, unless you want too (God help you!) study bartitsu.
I am still not convinced that is a real thing. It just seems too much like a gimmick you would find a add for in a turn of the censtory pulp book next to lead flavored lolipops or something, then something people at any point seriously did.
Kind of like most of the ninja stuff of the 80s that you would find ads for in comic books.
>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canne_de_combat
>>
File: IMG_6076.jpg (157 KB, 720x960)
157 KB
157 KB JPG
>>102204

Good point. I had thought of modern Bare Knuckle as a living continuation of historic pre-Queensbury puglism since in the UK at least Irish Travellers/Gypsies kept the art alive, albeit underground, and never stopped practicing it with organised fights.
>>
>>102206

I mean Baritsu does seem to be real and documented with clubs practising it. If it was effective vs someone trained in puglism & old fashioned catch wrestling is definitely a good question. I would suspect not, even if the creator/practioner's intentions were genuine.

It would seem to be in a weird place. I.e. it is a historical hybrid art. Not HEMA as no medieval practice but still historical albeit with a mixed Eastern-Western lineage.
>>
>>102247

Good shout. Seems to have a cross training relationship with savate similar to how Jeet Kune Do is cross trained with Eskrima.

Was alive as recently as 2019 Internationally which suggests it is alive and practiced not historical either.
>>
Catch and freestyle wrestling seem to be making a comeback in the UK thanks to people learning about its lineage to MMA via shootfighting, U.S. & Russian wrestlers success in that sport, and no-Gi BJJ.

Which is awesome as it was dead growing up in the 1990s down South at least in England. With people only knowing Pro Wrestling or maybe Greco-Roman because of the Olympics (but even those were rarely trained anywhere esp Greco).

Now I see legitimate wrestling classes in most medium sized towns around me. Some with classic British lineages that were small historic clubs which never stopped since the early 1900s, some run by American ex-pats teaching freestyle, some run by Russian/Central Asian immigrants.
>>
>>102206
>I am still not convinced that is a real thing.
Bartitsu absolutely was a real thing, it was basically early MMA, mixing boxing, canne de vigny and some japanese wrestling (). But there's no legit lineage, it's entirely reconstructed and you might as well wonder why since you could just... do judo and boxing. It was a pretty special format in the late 19th century, but not, mixing these two is nothing special.
Anything Bartitsu done now is usually just steampunk-esque LARP and is just silly overall. It's not training in the spirit of Barton-Wright, it's just doing passé boxing and jujutsu in victorian garb.
>>
File: catchwrestling_large.0.jpg (96 KB, 1200x800)
96 KB
96 KB JPG
>>102321

That's my understanding of it. Since it's a reconstruction with no legitimate lineage I would argue it belong in the HEMA thread. But since it's a hybrid style with a partly Eastern Japanese JuJutsu lineage they might argue it doesn't belong there either. Like I said earlier it's a weird case.

It's interesting from a martial arts history p.o.v. but again as I mentioned, I really doubt it would be particularly effective against bare-knuckle boxing and catch-as-can wrestling. Both of which are still alive with documented lineages (bare-knuckle via gypsies/travellers/underground fighting).
>>
Krav Maga potentially belongs here. It has an absolutely documented Western lineage (despite what /pol/ may get triggered and cry about) in its earliest form, being created in Eastern Europe by a European boxer/wrestler.

Though the modern form I believe takes techniques from Japanese arts like aikido, karate, etc. so would be more of an East-West hybrid art like modern kickboxing or MMA.
>>
>>102178
don't know if it counts since it was based on japanese styles, but there is German Jujutsu
>>
>>102329

Yeah it seems like a precursor to modern MMA (i.e. striking, grappling, taekdowns, submission in a gi) with a self-defence focus. It's pretty big at a university level in the UK and I know a few people including coaches.

It doesn't really fit since it would be a modern hybrid art, a non-Japanese development of Judo, like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is.

The people who do it are nice enough but I find its pseudo-Japanese trappings a bit cringe and culty especially as how they focus a lot on UK university/college recruitment, as it was introduced to the UK by students of German teachers and has no existing relationship back to modern Japan.
>>
It's good to see classic Western martial arts like bare-knuckle boxing and catch wrestling make a comeback, as well people respecting WMA like boxing & wrestling as legitimate martial arts. Hyped to watch BKFC.

Weeb shit via bullshido schools and mcdojos dominated for too long especially as I grew up in the 90s & 00s.

Wrestling in the UK was dead. I can't think of anywhere you could have learnt it except accidentally at some pro wrestling organisations.

Boxing was not seen as a real martial art compared with Karate & Kung-Fu, or even Kickboxing & Muay Thai despite both those later two having a Western boxing hybrid lineage.

I honestly think in terms of effectiveness and practicality WMA like the ones in the OP beat Eastern martial arts much of the time. Tho obvs modern hybrid arts like MMA, K1 kickboxing, and submission wrestling are the best of both worlds.
>>
>>102329
wtf is german jujitsu? what makes it a distinct thing?
>>102178
Though on the topic of stand up wrestling in the greco-roman tradition, ringen is a medieval stand up wrestling system from the medieval age german states, and wrestling of that sort more focused on throws and stuff where popular for a similar reason as judo in japan. One of course, most people had knives on them, so boxing was kinda not as big of a thing, but also, armored combat often required it for taking down armored opponents. It was a pretty popular topic in medieval manuscripts and a lot of armored fighting was centered around it. But also a decent bit of unarmored.
>>
>>102321
I mean, the cane fighting part of it was pretty interesting, thing it took quite a bit from period and historical sword fighting, particularly saber and smallsword stuff. but also some singlestick as well.
>>102328
I would tentatively agree, but the thing is, it seems the name has super loose control of itself and what IT even is. Krav was my introduction to martial arts, and thankfully I had a good school. very small classes and the two main instructors where a police cheif boxer and a all around mma guy with focus on bjj and general mma stuff. And that seems pretty true to its routes sans bjj for more wrestling. But Krav isnt a definitive style and more of an ethos of frank combativeness, which has its pros, but it also not being strict, but more of a name allows for some really retarded tacticool shit schools and not having a super distinct nature besides being "self defence oriented" in a nebulous way.
>>
>>102394

Yeah I would argue it is a WMA since it's categorically Ashkenazi in origin and they are (despite what /pol/ or even they themselves may believe) categorically a European people.

And its lineage begins with straight-up Western boxing and wrestling trained in Europe. Moder KM prob has more non-Western Muay Thai, and BJJ techniques in making it a modern hybrid art like MMA.
>>
File: download.jpg (12 KB, 259x194)
12 KB
12 KB JPG
>>102393

German Jiu Jitsu is a hybrid art that combines techniques from Judo (pre WWII forms afaik), Aikido, JJJ, and Shotokan Karate among others.

It originated in Germany in the 1940s/1950s but spread to Australia and Britain heavily. It's actually huge in the UK at a college/university level as the Jitsu Foundation.

It's gi based and has a lot of Japanese terminology and traditional martial arts trappings, despite being a completely modern invention by non-Japanese with no connection at all to modern Japan.
>>
File: history-6.jpg (110 KB, 608x450)
110 KB
110 KB JPG
Anyone know what old-skool Catch Wrestlers did for conditioning? These guys are solid. They look better built than modern MMA fighters running PEDs ffs.
>>
File: maxresdefault (4).jpg (83 KB, 1280x720)
83 KB
83 KB JPG
Sambo is a hybrid art drawing on a mixed Eastern-Western lineage. But based as fuck.
>>
>>102481
eh… doesnt really seem western in lineage since its largely just a splatering of japanese pre war techniques even if ruleset and practitioners are mostly euro. I want to say no in terms of the spirit of the law if not the letter.

since most of the conversation around it would be more relivent to japanese martial arts.
>>
>>102479
idk why you keep bringing up pol, i dont think anyone disputed its europeaness in that way.

more that its not necissarily as systemized as other general “forms”. though I do think that the founder had some judo influence or some shit, but i think it was largely boxing and wrestling like you said.
>>
>>102621

Agreed. I was explaining it to the person who asked.
>>
SCA, while intentionally anachronistic, could be classed as a living martial art as many of the techniques and weapons used in it are only very loosely based on historical examples. Plenty of guys go with the standard poppenheimer guard because it’s cheap, it’s light and it works, but plenty more will try to dual wield spears in case sword or use fuckhueg 48 inch rapiers or try to make an SCA legal claymore with a one-handed guard (if you’ve ever seen forged in fire, you’d know that most blades that size floppy enough to be safe would likely splinter into a thousand pieces before it even reaches the battlefield) the SCA kingdom world is very much a framework that different chapters use in very different ways. You’ve got chapters that just like to get drunk and curse in Middle English while watching jousting tournaments, you’ve got guys that are just blacksmithing nerds that want to remind the world exactly why X type of weapon is not used against Y weapon under any circumstances and you’ve got guys that actually want to compete seriously in a less restrictive and heavier form of fencing than epee. SCA rapier allows offhands in its standard form, has another division for “case sword;” or dual-wielding weapons of the same length, and also has no restrictions about where the line is and isn’t. It’s wickedly fast and you have to be able to parry from any conceivable direction. Even yeeting your own weapon at your enemy is not technically disallowed. SCA is less like what MMA is to street fighting and more like a melee-range version of airsoft or paintball.
>>
>>102654

I'd class it as HEMA even tho it purposefully has anachronistic elements. It still seems to be an attempt at recreating lost European martial arts in spirit if not exact execution. So would be appropriate for the HEMA thread.
>>
>>102742
Dear wma general,

You can keep the SCA fags.

Sincerely,
HEMA general
>>
>>102762

SCA seems stereotypically HEMA to me as a non-HEMA person. Their whole thing is to recreate the kind of combat of medieval Europe with their armour meant to look historical. Why don't you consider it HEMA?
>>
>>102769
> Their whole thing is to recreate the kind of combat of medieval Europe with their armour meant to look historical. Why don't you consider it HEMA?
It’s in the name, they’re anachronistic. HEMA, at least in theory, I can’t say everyone does this in practice, is supposed to try and recreate historical fighting arts based on historical evidence. The SCA bases their sport on basically nothing besides fiction. Consider this, hand hits are one of the most high percentage attacks in HEMA. Hand hits don’t count in the SCA. It creates stupid shit practices like the “wrap shot” where they try and hit the back of the head around a shield which would be completely retarded in real life because if you overextend yourself like that you’re asking to lose your hand. Nevermind the fact that their “armored fighting” is basically just stick tag and not actually related to real armored fighting where wrestling, stabbing gaps, or blunt force trauma are the only way to kill your opponent. HEMAists don’t do the last of those three things because nobody wants to actually die, but real armored combat with a sword looks way different from what you’d see at an SCA meetup and there are some HEMA fags who try to reconstruct this

Observe,
https://youtu.be/2ZyadKYL-ik

Long story short HEMA tries its best to be historical and an actual martial art. SCA is a larp which is fine if that’s what you’re into but I used to browse /asp/ before it got fucked by Hiroshimoot and remember how clueless the SCA was about actual historical martial arts, anyone claiming it is even remotely similar is impressively retarded.

On a personal note I hate the pageantry and theatrics in the sca where they wear costumes and pretend to be kings and shit. If that’s what you’re into fine but don’t pretend this is a sport. Shits mega gay.
>>
>>102781

Interesting. It doesn't sound like it belongs here either if it's LARPing. Unless any SCAfags can demonstrate other wise its a martial art, I.e. 'codified systems and traditions of combat practiced for a number of reasons such as self-defense; military and law enforcement applications; competition; physical, mental, and spiritual development; entertainment; and the preservation of a nation's intangible cultural heritage."

The intent of this general was to promote discussion of modern living Western martial arts with documented lineages any way like those described in the OP.
>>
>>102654
Is the point to actually fight against a resisting opponent, is there a coherent "sca system" that can be taught (seems like it's not the case)? A ruleset doesn't make an art, just like UFC isn't a martial art.
Is there even a martial pursuit like in Kendo?

I really don't see how SCA is in any way a martial art, they fence and all, but by itself it's not a martial art, partly because it's disorganised as the Anachronistic suggest.
>>
File: images (1).jpg (10 KB, 259x194)
10 KB
10 KB JPG
>>102825

Agreed. Though a ruleset can lead to an art especially in Western Martial Arts. E.g. modern boxing is a martial art that formed following the establishment of the Queenbury rules.

MMA is taught as an art in itself nowadays and again formed from the early UFCs and unified MMA rules established.

I guess another example would be, should Dog Brothers be considered a martial art in itself?
>>
File: mqdefault.jpg (15 KB, 320x180)
15 KB
15 KB JPG
Luta Livre seems pretty great. Brazilian grappling art with a Catch Wrestling lineage. Hard a big rivalry with BJJ which won out due to the Gracies being better organised and exporting their art.

Shame as it doesn't seem to have a lot of the baggage that BJJ has (actual proper takedowns from wrestling instead of dumbass butt scooting BJJ has, none of the politics crap of the Gracies who are awful people by most reports, lower entry fees with no pseudo-Japanese trappings as no-gi).
>>
>>102178
>Anymore to add to this list?
Jogo do Pau (Portuguese stickfighting based on two handed sword/montante, supposedly really effective in fights against asian arts)
Sambo if you count Russia as Euro
Arguably some styles of Escrima like Cinco Teros, which is basically just surviving Spanish/Italian military fencing
>>
>>102273
>since in the UK at least Irish Travellers/Gypsies kept the art alive
Not really, they do modern boxing, just without gloves. Pugilism had a very effective technique that is at least rudimentarily seen until the 1950s or so, then vanishes: Defense by parrying and head movement instead of blocking, power punches instead of combinations, keeping the hands low to preserve skeletal structure in punching, flat footed footwork etc.
Basically it was a related but different martial art compared to what we know as boxing nowadays. Modern boxing trades power for mobility and speed, maybe under the influence of amateur boxing.
>>
>>102281
The mediterranean is full of stickfighting systems, especially Italy. Some are similar to La Canne, some aren't. Most are based on fencing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOyVibah9fw

They also have a lot of knife fighting styles that were used relatively recently in world wars or by the various mafias:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9tFPsJIPYU
>>
>>102326
The thing is: Not everyone has the health, time or age to become a real athlete, so you need some watered down stuff for those people to learn. Would you put a 60 year old, maybe with chronic injuries or illnesses, with 1 hour free time per day through the mill of a normal boxing workout?
Bartitsu was basically back then what Krav Maga (Which was originally also mainly boxing, wrestling and jiu jitsu) is today. Not perfect, but better than nothing.
>>
>>102393
>>102481
No no. German JU JUTSU (Not Jiu, Ju!) was created in the 60s as a mix of karate, judo and aikido for unarmed police self defense (Before, they used the old nazi methods, boxing and japanese-style drill-based jiu jitsu via Erich Rahn, huge can of worms because the guy obviously had some skills but was a huge bullshido artist so literally nobody can retrace how and where he got his skills - but that's a subject for another thread).
Anyway, they didn't want to do nazi stuff, and Asian martial arts were fashionable, so they just mixed and matched what seemed workable.
Yeah, there are all the cringe Jap trappings and samurai legends, it's all bs, Ju Jutsu is really just a 60s attempt at self defense MMA made from asian martial arts (Even though all the technique names got germanized, eg. "Handgelenksaussendrehwurf" instead of kote gaeshi).

Later, since it was created as "open for all styles", stuff from escrima, boxing, even wing chun got tacked on by individual trainers. Since the system has a huge amount of techniques and nobody really cares what gets taught, you can get very different interpretations between different trainers, from McDojo pseudo karate to refined combat sport (There are competitions, with the rules usually being a weird mix of sports karate and judo, eg. you can't strike in grappling distance) to hardcore self defense.

Nowadays, it has a reputation for being not very effective (Mainly because our cops have like 2 hours of unarmed combat training per year) so several units do Krav Maga, wing chun or something else instead (Grappling is actually popular because of arresting techniques), BUT the Bavarian police, which is infamous for being ruthless, brutal and hardcore af, still does Ju Jutsu and it works very well for them, so I guess the main thing is how it's trained.

Source: I'm German
>>
>>102482
Farmer Burns's course should be online somewhere. Mostly BWEs and very light dumbbells IIRC.
>>
>>102572
I suspect the eastern influence is overblown for propaganda reasons - sambo is the only style where I've seen several weird techniques from renaissance self defense manuals. IMHO there could be something to the story that it's a mix of USSR sphere folk style wrestling/self defense styles.
>>
File: Capture.png (107 KB, 1627x325)
107 KB
107 KB PNG
>>103293

Yeah that's my understanding. I know it from the UK where it has the spelling "Ju Jitsu" primarily passed from British students of German teachers.
>>
>>103286

Are you sure? I mean Irish travellers/gypsies never stopped bareknuckle fighting since the 1600s let alone the 1800s let alone the 1950s.. I thought there was a well documented history of underground/semi-legal fighting from them complete with championships. Suggesting they preserved or at least maintained the living lineage from the 1800s to modern Bareknuckle competitions in the UK at least..

Tbh it doesn't really make a difference in terms of the thread. Modern bareknuckle boxing regardless would have a place here as a living art even with just a Queenbury boxing lineage rather than pre-Queensbury as I had thought.
>>
>>103289

I mean shouldn't they just do Yoga or something actually intended to benefit them?

I'm a big believer that the reason Western martial arts are so successful is the high intensity competitive aspect. With boxing and wrestling that's hundreds of years of pressure testing..
>>
File: drawing-savate-boxing.jpg (72 KB, 678x500)
72 KB
72 KB JPG
>>102178
French Leg punching (kickboxing), Savate.

Not an expert, But I remember someone saying that it was origially something that popped up around the french naval scene in the 1800s, so its interesting as a particularly nautical martial art (something about using the hands to hold onto shit while you are on a ship). though I think it was also from street fighting too. Its also interesting that it seems to be a localized euro thing like boxing or wrestling rather than a lot of the asian import styles that seem to be brought up.
>>
>>103295
>I suspect the eastern influence is overblown for propaganda reasons
It's not.

Judo is a very well-documented influence on the development of sambo.
>>
>>103367
Yoga for self defense?

Also boxing and wrestling as purely competitive sports is a post WW2 phenomenon. Before they were what we in Germany call "Breitensport", which means they were basically like modern martial arts/self defense clubs, open to anyone and not just people who wanted to become world champions.
>>
>>103364
Very sure because pugilism technique is very different from modern boxing and they use the modern technique. The average 1920s boxer was closer to pugilism than the pikeys.
>>
File: maxresdefault (1).jpg (95 KB, 1280x720)
95 KB
95 KB JPG
>>103405
There was savate and there was chausson. Chausson was streetfighting, not naval brawling. Savate changed a lot after WW1 when all the masters had died in the trenches, became more sporty etc.
Originally, there was a lot of grappling, when they tried to revive old school savate via savate defense, the few remaining experts of that streetfighting art were pitted against some savate athletes. It was found that the old school guys didn't engage in lengthy kickboxing matches but went in and did headbutts (coup de tete) and throw the sportsmen on their heads.
Kicking technique was also different, depending on the shoes you wore. Original savate is less kickboxing and more a weapons style where you used parts of your shoes.
Example:
>Roundhouse kick
>You wear heeled boots
>You don't hit with the point to the knee but do the roundhouse kick with the front of your heel to the knee so you tear out the other guy's knee cap
You hit like in this picture.
>>
>>103449
And the thing is that snappy quick kicks totally suffice for this because the power comes from your shoes, you don't necessarily need full body explosive kicks like in kickboxing.
>>
>>102178
>Anymore to add to this list?
Combatives?
>>
>>103450
Also keep in mind we're not talking sneakers here. We're talking shoes made from wood and tough leather. Imagine someone hitting your shin or knee cap with a block of wood.
>>
>>103295
nah it's basically judo
judo has picked up a lot of the eastern euro/caucuasian/steppe wrestling techniques over the years, and those made their way into sambo through judo
>>
>>103451
>he’s serious
Lmao
>>
>>103449

interesting stuff. Yah, I feel like I remember seeing more distance kicking that seemed suitable for hard toes/hard shoes where force can be concentrated. It was very distinct from other unshoed martial arts kicks in general.

I wounder how it would work with hiking/military boots, because they are firm, but in a different way then the wood toed shoes. Also, they have more ankle structure.

Its actually an interesting subject, I know as a general cultural thing, euro societies, due to the generally colder climate, tended to have and wear fully enclosed footwear much more often than most asiatic places, Especially in homes and domiciles where the floors could be very cold, so it makes sense that a system would form to the “footwear culture” of the place in question, as opposed to east or soth asia where open toed sandle like footwear was more common.
>>
File: download (3).jpg (11 KB, 275x183)
11 KB
11 KB JPG
>>103436

I mean how well can an old person who can't move well do in an irl self-defence situation? If Krav only provides fitness benefits they might be better of doing something specifically for fitness?

In Britain at least boxing is still very much like that. My boxing club is open to all with people of every age and fitness level, but has a small group of younger guys training to be amateurs then maybe go pro who help with coaching. There are also regular white collar charity bouts open to anyone training regularly. There are half a dozen clubs like this in the neighbouring towns and cities.

Wrestling is very much still based around hardcore athletes training to compete in small semi-private clubs from my personal experience. It could be because it's more niche and was pretty much dead in the UK until MMA brought it back and so people wanting to compete in MMA started doing it.
>>
File: Boxe-francaise.jpg (119 KB, 648x423)
119 KB
119 KB JPG
>>103405

The French had a huge overseas empire in South East Asia it makes me wonder if Savate's kicking techniques have some Muay/Pradal Serey/Lethwei/South East Asian kickboxing lineage?

For example, we know that Muay Thai adopted boxing gloves due to French boxers. It doesn't seem to be with Savate's documented linege being purely European. But it seems just too much of a coincidence that the South East Asians adopted boxing gloves and the ring from the French boxers with nothing going the other way..
>>
>>103475

This is a very good point and suggests why French kickboxing evolved to kick with the shoe and SEA kickboxing with the shin.
>>
>>103478
In britian is it mostly freestyle too? Since in america, freestyle has been popular, at least as a school and uni sport (especially in the midwest) for a long time.
>>103367
Also, I think there is a miscommunication somewhere in this conversation thread abotu the goal of an activity, I think the yoga guy was saying benifit their health, and at that point its about what you want to get out of something. Not everyone is looking for self defence.
>>
>>103481
If Im not mistaken, proto savate begain around 1820-30 before much french action in indochina. And the kicks and general system seems quite removed from Muay thai from what Ive seen. If anything I think it has more in common with taekwondo or karate in terms of far extension kicks at least compared to muay thais more compact kicking.

Though of course there could have been somr cross contact somewhere along the line.
>>
>>103481
>The French had a huge overseas empire in South East Asia it makes me wonder if Savate's kicking techniques have some Muay/Pradal Serey/Lethwei/South East Asian kickboxing lineage?
Other way around.
>>
>>103478
>I mean how well can an old person who can't move well do in an irl self-defence situation?
The point is that self defense =/= a sports match, so you shouldn't need to be a 20 something well trained athlete to use your techniques. There also should be methods for less physically gifted people, and in come Bartitsu and similar schools. Can they defeat a boxer/catcher on their own turf? Probably not, but that's not what they're designed for anyway.
>>
>>103507

Modernisation of SEA kickboxing, I.e. using boxing gloves, a ring, and rules came from the French. Are you suggesting the kicks did too?
>>
>>103596
Well, they probably kicked beforehand but the whole training methods, technique, angles etc. probably came from Savate. Older Savate had Thai-style full body roundhouse kicks (still found in the Italian version), and in both styles, there are no front snap kicks (illegal in sports Savate because too dangerous when kicked with the point of your shoe), for example. The Thais modified the roundhouse hit zone to be the shin obviously.
Also SEA kickboxing in itself is probably derived from Indian Mushti Yuddha, which seems to have been similar.
>>
>>103507
>>103596
>>103612
Thailand and Burma were not under french rule
>>
>>103449
also , intrestingly enough chausson and savate don't originally use a whole lot of punching , it's only after Charles Lecour went to learn English boxing after losing to Owen Swift in 1830 , he then incorporated it into the then savate to improve it , creating what he called "Boxe Française". from that , savate got a few interesting tradition , like having to brush your gloves against your shirt if you go down as to show respect and a will not to "stain" them
>>
>>103621

Agreed in those cases it was British presence rather than French, as in Cambodia, in the region that led to the adoption of boxing gloves and the ring.
>>
>>103642
Savate used slaps and other non-boxing strikes.
Also Lecour "won" by kicking Swift in the balls. Illegal move according to some, so I guess it was No Contest .
>>
>>103510

I genuinely think the hypothetical older person would be better off training a combat sport like boxing or BJJ, rather than a watered down none pressure tested activity imho.

We have dudes in their 60s in both my boxing and BJJ class. They might not be able to keep up with the younger guys in their prime in the sports sense but they have no problem learning techniques and are so much fitter by a considerable distance than regular 60somethings who don't train.

I.e. I think Western combat sports and modern hybrid martial arts can be both a martial way to promote health & fitness for everyone, and a martial science to be a hard combat sport that gives real fighting ability to competitive younger guys, since I see it myself from personal experience.
>>
>>103651
i think you're confusing it with the Charles Charlemont vs Jerry Driscoll match , which did end with a debated kick, but that was in 1899, long after savate already incorporated boxing techniques. From what i could find Lecour did lose.
>>
File: savate.jpg (326 KB, 800x533)
326 KB
326 KB JPG
What's the current state of Savate? Seems like Muay Thai and kickboxing are bigger in France..
>>
>>103483
I think the shin thing makes sense as well. Wounder why more east asian stuff uses more flat of the foot strikes like taekwondo or Karate (from what ive seen).
>>
>>103677
idk, but it seems like it would be in an awkward positions. in the US at least it seams like most kickboxing types of lartial arts like karate, well, get absorbed into kickboxing at least at the more intensive levels.
>>
>>103677
it's still a fairly niche sport in france, boxing and MT are definitely more popular, not so sure about kickboxing. But it is gaining in popularity, a shame they didn't pick it as an additional sport for the paris olympics
>>
>>103678
Because they copied these techniques from savate yet come from cultures where you don't necessarly wear shoes.
>>
>>102205
hes not generating any power at all with that straight
>>
File: Highkickpradal.jpg (109 KB, 631x591)
109 KB
109 KB JPG
>>103990

As much as I slate East Asian Kung-Fu derived arts (Kung-Fu, Karate, Kempo, Taekwondo). I am pretty sure they didn't get their kicking techniques from Savate as there was no French presence in that area and Shaolin techniques including kicks predate Savate..

Some Cambodian Kun Khmer cross-influence on Savate is more likely if anything since the French actually colonised that region and Kun Khmer were exposed to Savate and adopted the ring and gloves from it..
>>
>>103995
Because he's a dork with no biomechanics.

>>104009
Pre-Savate, asian arts used front snap kicks, stomp kicks, side kicks, maybe back kicks, and foot sweeps if you want to count sweeps as kicks. That's it. There are no traditional forms with roundhouse kicks etc., not even in Muay Boran.
>>
>>104022
True and if you have ever seen muay boran forms they are just as goofy looking as any other kata. Its funny because savate used to be point sparring as well which is where karate got that from too. You look at Japanese kickboxing and it is the logical evolution of karate in the same way modern savate is from the old savate muay thai from muay boran etc. But both people who do karate and people who hate have agreed that oh if you start using western boxing or don't do kata all day its not karate anymore. Nevermind that muay thai also was much less refined in punching before adopting western boxing and it didn't stop being muay thai because of it.
>>
>>104024

Muay Thai before it adopted Western boxing was Muay Boran. Although that is a retronym we now use to call pre-modernisation Muay Thai I guess.
>>
File: Roundhousekicks.png (40 KB, 220x447)
40 KB
40 KB PNG
>>104022

Gonna need a source for this. It's such a biomechanical simple natural kick it seems unlikely..

I love Western arts hence OPing the thread. But have never seen any documented evidence that ALL eastern arts adopted roundhouse kicks from Savate..
>>
if an MMA gym does a different martial art each day of the week, could i go to individual classes to learn a specific kind? i want to do wrestling but the only place that does it near me is an MMA gym that has two classes a week.
>>
>>104089

Is wrestling taught as a separate class or part of the MMA class? Either way I don't see why not.

My martial arts schools runs kickboxing classes and BJJ classes separately 3 times a week for each, with 2 MMA classes week that combine both.

The MMA classes include wrestling. And some dudes just turn up only for the MMA classes.
>>
>>104022
>no one in Asia figured out they can swing their leg sideways until the French came along
Ok
>>
>>104027
>Gonna need a source for this.
Look at traditional forms.

The reason is that roundhouse kicks aren't very useful outside of the ring since they don't stop the opponent's forward momentum like stomps or front kicks. They're for cutting your opponent down over several rounds.
>>
>>104241
Thais kick head with a snap all the time. Swinging your leg up there is too slow and it has plenty KO power.
However I do recognise that Thais still rotate their hips and it's the rotation that generates power and the point fighting snap with no follow through wouldn't have the power
>>
>>104241

>A full force roundhouse kick to the legs doesn't stop forward momentum of your opponent

You know how I know you've never been in a fight in your life or even sparred properly?..
>>
If you're in the UK I highly recommend finding your local wrestling club.

The art has practically disappeared from Britain despite us inventing the style that led to Pro Wrestling.

There's still some small community based local wrestling clubs about, who will teach you better takedowns than you would learn at an average MMA school.
>>
>>102247
I'm french canadian and I took up La canne (sport and historical) lately because I found out I had a master at arms in my lineage that used to teach it.

I want to bring back this tradition in my family and I'm thinking of teaching it (once I master it) to my nephews and children, though the Canne clubs here are very few and I'm limited in my options.
>>
>>104593
based canne enjoyer
>>
File: 1618443391198.jpg (633 KB, 1585x1600)
633 KB
633 KB JPG
>>104358
>finding your local wrestling club.
tfw I live in fucking norfolk
>>
>>104593

Based. Cross train it with Savate.
>>
>>104261
I have been doing full contact arts for 10+ years now.
>>
>>103294
Fuck it I am going to do farmers Burns's program I don't have anything better to do
>>
>french people invented roundhouse kicks
lmao the stupid shit you can read on 4chan
>>
What do I need to do to switch from boxing to bare knuckle boxing
>>
>>104211
tbf, figuring something out and actually doing it as a consistent thing are two separate things.

Have no comment either way of the topic in specific though.
>>
>>105023

What is it?
>>
>>105038

Currently just train regular boxing as people are saying the original art was lost the modern sport is a recreation with a lineage from regular boxing and hasn't diverged yet in techniques.
>>
>>105086
>Lessons in wrestling and Physical culture writen by farmer burns

Was a course offered by farmer burns wrestling school delivered though the mail in ten lesson each being a essay length. It starts simply but goes deep in to old school catch wrestling.

So think of like a old school wrestling focused workout program with more reading

You can find a good version on archive dot org
>>
Is Dutch style kickboxing considered a wma?
>>
>>105215
eh, I guess? but its one of those maybe cases. because its definitely muy Thai, BUT it has obvious influence from boxing, so its more western in practice then say german jiu jitsu or whatever. Though honestly id saythat conversation is probably more fruitful in a muy thia thread since thats what they actually compete against and is within that umbrella.
>>
>>105038
really focus on hitting with first two knuckles and having the right wrist alignment. boxing gloves give you a larger margin of error in poor punching angle (even if good punches otherwise in stance and actual delivery) and you could get some hand injuries otherwise.
>>
File: Nieky-Holzken-DSC_1483.jpg (136 KB, 1200x799)
136 KB
136 KB JPG
>>105215

It's my favourite fighting style by some distance, a beautiful art that works for 9/10 self-defence situations, is a great spectator sport, and effective MMA base, and creates well conditioned athletes.

But as I would consider it a modern hybrid art not a WMA since it has a mixed East-West lineage being boxing, karate, and Muay Thai. It's fucking awesome tho and is basically now just a synonym for kickboxing because of Glory and K1.
>>
>>105240
>>105235
I personally would say it is a wma
Because it was made with a western training philosophy sure it is a similar to muay thai but it was created to challenge muay thai when followed there rules
It may look similar but the similar are skin deep
P.s. It pulls way more from boxing then any where else
>>
>>105313
it pulls boxing from western boxing, yeah. But where do the kicks and the knees come from?
Meijiro, Chakuriki and Vos were all founded by Muay Thai influenced Kyokushin practitioner.
>>
>>105315
>Kyokushin
Which got most of its kicks from French savate?
Not saying your wrong just the "spirit" of Dutch style is firmly one of a wma
>>
>>105322
"Most" is an exaggeration. It's more head kicks that the French brought along as karate guys already did kicks to the legs and midsection.
>>
>>105322

Look unless someone can provide a source we need to stop stating it as a fact that *all* East Asian arts got *all* their kicks from Savate ffs. It's getting stupid.

Even if it were true Dutch Kickboxing would still be a modern hybrid art with a mixed lineage due to the Muay Thai and Kyokushin influences, and not a WMA, especially nowadays where due to global competition K1/Dutch/International/Japanese kickboxing is for 99% of purposes the same sport/art.
>>
>>105348
>>105323
Since Dutch is completely out is there any other kickboxing type wma

Besides savate
>>
Tips for at home Greco-Roman or catch wrestling drills?
I been out of the loop from final exams then moving and now a new job and want to start again
>>
File: images (2).jpg (8 KB, 251x201)
8 KB
8 KB JPG
>>105411

Just Savate. American Kickboxing is a modern hybrid sport (albeit dead since the Thais destroyed them with lowkicks then the UFC took their lunch money and finished them off) combining karate and boxing. Dutch/K1/International kickboxing is a modern hybrid of boxing, Kyokushin karate, and Muay Thai.

Even Savate I suspect has some Eastern influence, since we know SEA boxing adopted boxing gloves from the French when they ruled French Indo-China, so it seems unlikely the influence was purely one way especially as Savate originated with sailors who would have been on the colony ships.

Tho since it's pre-1900s with no acknowledged Eastern lineage and literally called "French Boxing" it's a WMA for the purposes of the thread.

Hell even Catch Wrestling has some Indian Kushti lineage because of British colonialism in India/Pakistan. Tho again if the influence was due to colonial connections it gets classed as a WMA itt.
>>
>>105528

Raspberry_Ape (Daniel Strauss pro Submission Wrestler), Snakepit Wigan, Owen Livesey, grapplefit (Sambo Champion), and legiongrappling (Greco-Roman & Freestyle wrestling school) have good content I thought.
>>
File: images.jpg (9 KB, 275x183)
9 KB
9 KB JPG
>>104611

Take a look around. I am in Hertfordshire which is almost as rural as Norfolk and we have a legitimate wrestling club just the next county over in Bedford, plus 3 local BJJ/MMA schools within 20 mins drive at most that have decent wrestling lineages (American folkstyle and Japanese shoot wrestling) with dedicated classes to just freestyle/catch wrestling (typically so the MMA/no-gi BJJ guys can cross-train it to learn proper takedowns).
>>
File: 1653209110825.jpg (103 KB, 442x737)
103 KB
103 KB JPG
>>105599
>we have a legitimate wrestling club just the next county over in Bedford
anon... that's the closest one to me...
>>
File: download.jpg (48 KB, 408x306)
48 KB
48 KB JPG
>>105628

Could be worth making the trip. Tho it would kill your Saturday nights as you have be up early on Sundays when the classes are. But 90 mins of wrestling training from competition wrestlers would benefit all aspects of your fitness plus make you a better martial artist with how key we have seen wrestling be as an art because of MMA.

It's a solid club. My club's head MMA coach went there to practice takedowns, etc. Definitely, the kind of local club that needs to be supported given how amateur wrestling is on life-support in the UK.
>>
>>105579
eh, IDK if the timing matches up though. Savate became a thing in the 1820 and 1830s, while most frnech indochina activity happened in the 1850s onwards. Michel Casseux open his first establishment in 1825. And thats just the regulated version. there is 25+ years difference there.

And as a general cultural thing, the ruling culture tends to have way more influenced on the ruled then the other way around. Not saying there isn't any cross pollination that way though, just that major isn't exactly supported.
>>
File: images (1).jpg (12 KB, 275x183)
12 KB
12 KB JPG
>>105757

Agreed. It's just speculation on my part that SEA boxing influenced Savate. The documented influence seems to have been South-East Asia adopting boxing gloves and the ring from the British boxing & French Savate from what I have read.
>>
>>105579
>Hell even Catch Wrestling has some Indian Kushti lineage because of British colonialism in India/Pakistan.
Only the Karl Gotch lineage. Catch as a whole doesn't, Kushti isn't even submission wrestling.

What's with the weebs on here inventing asian influences on WMA?
>>
File: Download.jpg (18 KB, 225x225)
18 KB
18 KB JPG
>>105411
Not as far as I know. WMA used kicks since the middle ages, but pure kickboxing was never a thing except for France. The Brits have Purring but that's more standup wrestling with low kicks.

There is some evidence ancient Roman pugilism had kicks, but nothing survived.
>>
>>105818
>entire thread full of anons saying white people are responsible for everything good about asian fighting
>one guy says there could be asian influence on western fighting
how could weebs do this?
>>
>>105830
Nobody asked.
>>
>>102204
One of Jack Dempsey's boxing trainers learned boxing under the olden rules. I would check out Dempsey's book.
>>
Jake Shannon is he full of shit?
>>
File: DjtLrG-U8AAcloB.jpg (88 KB, 800x599)
88 KB
88 KB JPG
>>105818

I mean there were multiple British Indian (present day Pakistan, India, Bangladesh) kushti wrestlers who competed in Western Europe in Catch Wrestling even before Karl Gotch, pre-WWI due to the colonial connections.

Though you are correct the only documented South Asian Kushti to Western wrestling lineage seems to be from Karl Gotch to Japanese Catch Wrestling.
>>
>>105923

He seems legit. Like his lineage is direct Bill Riley > Bill Robinson > Jake Shannon. Tho he looks like a dweeb which is suspicious as his whole lineage were famous for being big guys..
>>
>>105953
Thats what I thought so I didn't buy his stuff so I was just wondering if I am better off giving more money to snake pit usa
>>
File: mqdefault.jpg (14 KB, 320x180)
14 KB
14 KB JPG
>>105969

Snake Pit USA claim the same lineage, Bill Riley > Billy Robinson. It's not officially affiliated to the original British Snake Pit despite claiming their lineage. Only the Japanese Snake Pit/Riley's Gym is.

But they seem pretty legit. Especially with the U.S. producing far more and superior grapplers to the UK in modern times due to wrestling being an academic sport there, while it virtually died in Britain until the rise of the UFC and catch wrestling specifically via Ken Shamrock, Brock Lesnar, and Eric Paulson contributing to MMA.
>>
>>105952
>I mean there were multiple British Indian (present day Pakistan, India, Bangladesh) kushti wrestlers who competed in Western Europe in Catch Wrestling even before Karl Gotch, pre-WWI due to the colonial connections.
They didn't. Those matches only went for pinning.
>>
>>103364
the technique is different, the fighters and the organisation behind it have the legacy and the continuation, but pikeys and gypos don't train the same way or fight the same way. They could if they wanted to but they don't.
>>
What is a good job to have when pursuing martial arts
>>
>>106134
Soldier
Police
Security
Pro fighter
Bodyguard
Cartel enforcer
Coach
>>
>Any books on bullseye shoot/ sharpshooting?

Also just set up my home speed bag
I enjoy it
>>
>>106147

Prison Guard
Security Van/Truck Driver
>>
File: 1639183669411.png (513 KB, 621x547)
513 KB
513 KB PNG
Anyone here just goes out at night and fights people?
My life was boring as fuck so I started going out and just fighting people.
I started putting on a ski mask and at first it was only homeless people then it evolved to high school kids and now I’m picking fights with grown men.
I even have a nemesis.
>beat up the same guy a couple of times
>find out where he works
>catch him off guard after he gets off work
>he’s been posting on Facebook about catching me at night and giving me what I deserve
>dude drives around at night with a shotgun trying to kill me basically
My life is so much more exciting now am I crazy for doing this?
>>
>>106134
Bullshit email job. Get a standing desk. Don't accumulate any wear and tear at work my friend. Save that for training.
>>
>>108412

You're a pussy. You're sucker punching untrained people. Go to an actual boxing gym, kickboxing gym, wrestling club, BJJ school, MMA gym and try fighting trained opponents. You're the most pathetic loser I have ever encountered online. Total small dick energy.

Source: me. I go to actual places where trained people fight full contact 5 nights a week and go at it hard for 2 hours. You're such a loser. You probably voted for Trump.
>>
>>108425
>I go to actual places where trained people fight full contact 5 nights a week and go at it hard for 2 hours.
enjoy the CTE tough guy
>>
>>108412
>My life is so much more exciting now am I crazy for doing this?
Yes you are. You could be fighting, but this is not it, this is just criminal offenses.
>>
>>108428
He’s probably bullshiting and doesn’t actually train that much at all, then alone hard sparring that much
>>
>>108457

Alternating boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ. 5 times a week. Better than sucker punching random untrained people like a pussy faggot.
>>
>>108497
Ok
>>
>>102328
>Krav Maga potentially belongs here. It has an absolutely documented Western lineage (despite what /pol/ may get triggered and cry about) in its earliest form, being created in Eastern Europe by a European boxer/wrestler.
>Though the modern form I believe takes techniques from Japanese arts like aikido, karate, etc. so would be more of an East-West hybrid art like modern kickboxing or MMA.
All wrong, it's based in British Commando fighting (think Fairbairn, Sykes, etc) of WW2. because the Brits trained Jewish commandos for sabotage actions.

The whole "oy vey, Imi was a poor booy who had to learn boxing and wrestling to defeat Nazi thugs on TEH STREETZ" is just modern marketing.

And OF COURSE the lineage is not documented. What is this even...
>>
>>102393
>wtf is german jujitsu? what makes it a distinct thing?
Ju Jutsu is the modern form which is used by SWAT units (Example: USK in Bavaria) and it is usually decried as useless. In reality, it's pretty fucking awesome and Bavarian SWAT cops are pretty fucking hard to beat (there are stories about 2 of them completely BTFOing a Russian heavyweight wrestling champion).

Dschiu-Dschitsu (Jiu Jitsu) as trained in the 3rd Reich is completely different. Basically, Judo replaced Jiu Jitsu in Japan (not because of any tournaments and matches, that's a myth, just bc of politics) and survived in Germany, where it was trained really orthodox old school. Meaning drills and power exercises. That's why Kano said it has nothing to do with his Judo.

Unfortunately, the whole era is pretty poisoned and most books were and are destroyed, banned or lost (Russians stole a lot and incorporated it into Sambo, won't give it back, it's Top Secret now). Training methodology was pretty in-depth as far as we know and it had a really good showing on the actual battlefield, but was useless in Judo tournaments (as the match vs England Judo Budokwai (iirc that was the name) showed).

Germans also started exploring the connection between medieval wrestling and Jiu Jitsu back then, but, well, the war, stopped that. Theory back then was that Euros brought Jiu Jitsu to Japan during the Sengoku era - the styles are too similar and the Euro stuff is older.
>>
>>103478
>I mean how well can an old person who can't move well do in an irl self-defence situation?
There are 80 year old ex boxers who beat up groups of muggers to this day, so the WW2 era and before stuff seems to work even in old age.

Anyway, Raufen from Souther Germany which is basically anything goes with an emphasis on gore (biting off noses, ripping off ears, etc) and punching power (a good "Raufer" could punch knuckle dents into massive oak tables, thus they didn't need knuckle dusters, which were popular back then).
>>
>>103481
>The French had a huge overseas empire in South East Asia it makes me wonder if Savate's kicking techniques have some Muay/Pradal Serey/Lethwei/South East Asian kickboxing lineage?
>For example, we know that Muay Thai adopted boxing gloves due to French boxers. It doesn't seem to be with Savate's documented linege being purely European. But it seems just too much of a coincidence that the South East Asians adopted boxing gloves and the ring from the French boxers with nothing going the other way..
It's the other way around. Compare the oldest footage of Muay Thai, then Savate, then modern Muay Thai. Modern MT is basically a more power focused old school Savate, with modified kicks because no shoes.It's all there, the clinch grappling, the kick catching, the pad training, etc
>>
>>103621
But everything around it was either French or British, hence Siam itself was never colonized - it was neutral ground in the area.

Still, modern MT is really too obviously similar to old Savate. Ofc, it's modified bc of SEA autism.
>>
>>104261
>You know how I know you've never been in a fight in your life or even sparred properly?..
Bro, watch some Antifa vs cops fights, Antifa use Muay Thai round kicks, none of them work if the other guy bumrushes you. You just get stuffed and taken down.
>>
>>105235
>because its definitely muy Thai
NO.
What the fuck. It's modified Karate and the Dutch are proud of it. The only Thai thing they do is using Thai pads, which were French originally.
>>
>>105411
>Since Dutch is completely out is there any other kickboxing type wma
Pankration was famous for kicks, some scholar claim that ancient boxing was actually kickboxing though. Good luck finding that shit though, there is almost NOTHING about actual training.
>>
>>105579
>albeit dead since the Thais destroyed them with lowkicks
That's not quite true, Thai cheated his way to victory (with everything he had, illegal techniques, low kicks that were banned until a day before the fight, ring corner shenaigans like the ol'd spilled water trick, etc) after getting absolutely heemed in round 1 and everyone just ran with it. This wasn't even 50 years ago and people still prefer the myth to the actual story, lmao.

I think the thing I hate the most about US martial arts is the asinine legend building and bullheaded adherence to fairy tales and flat out lies. It's almost Asiatic, no offense.
>>
>>108557
>soi drinking beanpole who doesn’t know how to fight ineffictively swings his leg at a cop in riot armor
>this proves leg kicks don’t work
>>
>>108412
>Anyone here just goes out at night and fights people?
Not possible in Europe anymore unless you enjoy fighting 5-50 armed opponents every time.
>>
>>108425
No rules in a street fight, pal. Enjoy your brain damage.
>>
>>108564
What are you even talking about? Antifa is usually highly trained in martial arts in Europe, nobody said anything about body armor.

And leg kicks do work ofc, just not in a streetfight, if the other guy is bumrushing/tackling you. Just as any Thai trying to 1-on-1 drunk tourists. In fact, there's this interview with Sagat (the actual one, not the vidya character) about street fighting, and he says, whihc surprises no one except you, that kicks are useless in a real fight and you should do boxing and elbows instead. And I would guess he knows his shit.
>>
>>108566

You're not pitched fights with others like football hooligans, you're sucker punching random strangers, you absolute retard. You're a coward and a pussy.
>>
File: don_wilson_match.jpg (34 KB, 500x368)
34 KB
34 KB JPG
>>108563

The Thai had his fucking chin broken and still fought wrecking Rufus' leg with low kicks. Low kicks work. It's completely arbitrary to say no kicks between the knee and waist. It was a good thing it happened and it's the Americans fault they didn't change their sport to be like Dutch-style/K1/Japanese/Unified rules kickboxing and just let it die.
>>
>>108567
> Antifa is usually highly trained in martial arts
LMFAO, this you?
>>
>>108592
Don't know how true it is these days. But it's actually true that western European communists began to train after WW2. Fascism's early victories were on the streets, beating the shit out of strikers and union/leftist activists. The reasonable reaction was that leftists would need to start learning how to fight if they wanted to avoid similar things in the future.

American leftism has been utterly defanged since the 40's. This recent revival of social democrats and podcast listeners totally lacks the martial attitude of the previous generations. Consequently, you get the embarrassing footage of twinks in black bloc attire getting bodied by fat trump supporters. I've seen calls for athletic training met with accusations of ableism in leftist circles, so I don't have any hope for changing.
>>
File: 126864.jpg (154 KB, 891x600)
154 KB
154 KB JPG
>>108592

Stop Americanising everything retard. The actual European hard-left, not American liberals who would be considered soft conservatives in every other nation, were violent as fuck. They literally formed militant terrorist groups in the 1960s ffs and engaged in frequent street fighting with the hard-right.
>>
I was reading about old bare knuckles fighting the they talk about using something to dry out the skin then lotion along with bag work to thicken the skin
I thought it was shit at first but it turns out that it one of the few old school tricks the Irish travelers still use and even Tyson fury said he was doing it once a day

Just want to hear your thoughts
>>
>>108548
that sounds like the kraut version of bullshido

>it's super deadly and beats all other martial arts
>except it only works in the battlefield and not in sport
>even older than this other old martial art
>all of the sources are gone so just trust me broheim
>>
>>108637
Sure thing buddy. These guys definitely don’t look like uncoordinated skinny Jean wearing beanpoles.
https://youtu.be/THmTslotHrU
>>
>>108733

>A random Youtube video is a better source than people who actually live in Europe

Absolute state of Amerifats
>>
>>108750
>NOOO DONT POST VIDEOS OF US LOOKING LIKE RETARDS
cope more
>>
>>108420
Thats the goal I just need a job to put me through uni
>>
>>108758

I'm not even the person you were arguing with originally. The socialist hard-left in Europe has a long history of militantism and street violence. They're nothing like the American liberal progressive movement dude. I don't even know why you are arguing or care.
>>
>>108637
They were total faggots who benefitted from a stasi agent shooting a student and blaming it on the cops, and from then on, cops had to be nice to them. Joschka Fischer types, not exactly hardened streetfighters.

As for martial arts, they generally do kickboxing (since MMA has the reputation of being a neo nazi sport) nowadays.

Source: I'm German, used to have some contacts to that scene
>>
File: untitled.0.jpg (79 KB, 1200x800)
79 KB
79 KB JPG
>>108561

Since its lineage died it would belong in HEMA. There's modern Pancrase but that's basically a hybrid sport based on shoot wrestling with a mixed East-West lineage. That got subsumed into MMA anyway.

It's a bit weird that WMA had no kicking based styles except Savate. It seems like such an obvious biomechanical movement.
>>
>>108893
That why i ask about Dutch it half the body so there must be a wma that made use of it
>>
>>108919

Dutch Kickboxing hands are Western boxing but it's kicks are completely from Muay Thai and Kyokushin.

I can only guess as striking was useless in a society of armoured fighters as European war was until gunpowder then boxing became the predominant sport (other than wrestling) and removed everything except hands in the name of sport. Kicking traditions seem exclusively East Asian except Savate.
>>
>Going to Brazil for luta livre thoughts?
>Goals improving my anti bjj game and train a from of catch wrestling

I am already a ok grappler and the only thing holding me back right now is skill
So is this a good idea
>>
>>108637
The only thing the hard left could do violence wise was shoot and bomb fucking innocent civilians
>>
File: download.jpg (9 KB, 300x168)
9 KB
9 KB JPG
>>108984

It's a shame Luta Livre didn't catch-on rather than BJJ as the Gracies are absolute shit-cunts. I would classify it as a WMA since Brazil is roughly part of the Western-world though it's arguable, and its lineage is from Catch Wrestling. Tho the distinction with BJJ is probably meaningless now with no-Gi BJJ/Submission Grappling.
>>
>>108997
Well there is one big difference and that they also include knee elbows and punches

It's pretty great
>>
>What is the best wma for a femanon?
>>
>>109053

Any. Gender makes no difference. There's women in every one of martial arts classes. Tho kickboxing (Dutch/K1) style has the most.
>>
>>109055
Thx

Second question is fencing transferable to self defense with a baton
>>
Which is the better snakepit
>>
>>109057
No. There is nothing in fencing all that applicable to attacking with or being attacked by a club.
>>
I been using a old par of rugby shorts for submission wrastling and they ripped today I have been trying to find a par of cotton shorts and if any has any recommendations
>>
>>109341

Just use regular fight shorts ffs. They are literally made for the sport. Are you actually retarded?
>>
>>109057
>>109333
Sort of depends on whether he means Modern Olympic fencing or HEMA, as there are specific forms of stick fighting as well as “single stick” which is intended for training with a sword but works just as well with an actual stick
>>
>>109380
>Are you actually retarded?
a little but i just can't stand the long shorts
>>
>>109433
Muay Thai shorts are a lot shorter. They're a pretty common combo with a rash guard for no gi.
>>
>>109433

Shop around. You can get short fight shorts. I have some shorter Venum ones that are Muay Thai shorts length.

>>109435

Wrestling/no-Gi can get rough man. I would worry actual Muay Thai shorts would split or rip and leave me there in nothing but my man-thong..
>>
File: maxresdefault (1).jpg (153 KB, 1280x720)
153 KB
153 KB JPG
>>109332

The American and Japanese one's realistically should have the highest standard due to wrestling/judo being a scholistic sports in the U.S./Japan, but basically on life support until MMA brought it back in the UK ironically. The U.S. one has no actual official affiliation with the UK one. The UK one despite being legendary and inventing the style is really just a very basic small community club gym.
>>
>>109444
>>109435
Thanks frends
>>
What are some great western martial artists watch and study
>>
File: origin.jpg (106 KB, 1200x628)
106 KB
106 KB JPG
>>109911

Boxing - Mike Tyson
Catch Wrestling - Erik Paulson
Multi/3 Gun - Keanu Reeves (not even trolling. Dude is legit)
>>
> Graduated HS and realized the potential of folkstyle wrestling too late
> Plan to go to college in a gap year (yeah I’m 18 fuck you)
> Want to learn wrestling but going BJJ might make my grappling backwards

Wrestler bros help me out
>>
>>110215
I was in the same spot
Just go to a mma gym they usually have a wrestling class twice a week and a lot of no-gi

This is what I am doing till I am out of debt and can go to uni
>>
>>110215
>>110220

What that anon said. Most MMA schools have a dedicated wrestling class or teach it as part of MMA. Otherwise does the U.S. have small community amateur wrestling clubs?

Those two methods are the only way to learn wrestling in the UK as it's not a scholastic sport like the U.S..
>>
>>110215
Are you going to a junior college? You could do wrestling there and they're not as picky as competitive state schools.
>>
>>108997
Thing is, even Luta Livre is partially influenced by Asian martial arts. Pehlwani played a role in CACC's early development and then Judo was introduced by Roberto Leitao. Even the father of Luta Livre, Euclydes Hatem cross-trained with one of the pioneers of BJJ and Judo, Takeo Yano.

Conversely, BJJ was influenced by Catch since Maeda participated in CACC matches while there was an exchange between Brazilian-based Judoka and Jiu-Jitieros. The forgotten George Gracie collaborated with CACC and Japanese judoka during his career as a fighter.
>>
>>111124

Nice. I was vaguely aware BJJ had some Catch Wrestling inheritance so had always regarded it as a modern hybrid art with a mixed East-West lineage.
>>
File: genki-poseufc47_05.jpg (41 KB, 450x300)
41 KB
41 KB JPG
how do I wear compression shorts without the bulge sticking out like this guy?
>>
>>111612

Don't wear compression shorts, or just embrace and show off your BDE.
>>
>>111438
All grappling arts are influenced from cross-pollination. The 19th century and early 20th century was a golden age of these style vs style matches. Judo itself adapted the fireman's carry from wrestling. George Hackenschmidt admired Japanese Jujutsu and Judo that he even recommended wrestlers to incorporate their sweeps and trips. Sumo has recently been studying Mongolian Bokh thanks to the successes of Mongol sumotori. That's why I love grappling, it's no-nonsense and irlt constantly adapts and refines itself from pressure testing in competition.
>>
>>111612
Have a small dick
>>
Any one else trying to convert there no-gi Judo club to a Irish collar and elbow club?
It happening slowly for me. Also Irish collar and elbow is a WMA good replacement to Judo
>>
>>111915

Wtf is a no-go Judo club? That's not even a thing. It's by definition just a wrestling club..
>>
>>111916
Its a bunch of judo guys who use the free mats at my mma gym before the wrestling class
its pretty much wrestling-style clich for judo style throws without ankle picks doubles or single leg take down
>>
>>111926

Isn't this just Greco-Roman wrestling?
>>
>>111940
Idk
any ways judo is view similar with irish collar and elbow wrestling and thats what I care about
>>
>>111966

Ok. Well it seems unique to your situation where some random dudes do what they call no-Gi Judo on open mats. It's definitely not a thing. The closest you get is people in MMA and no-Gi BJJ classes doing Judo throws. But that's the opposite of what you are describing.
>>
>>112052
Cool
My main point is trying to bring back a near dead wma.
People read about Irish collar and elbow wrestling.
>>
File: maxresdefault.jpg (101 KB, 1280x720)
101 KB
101 KB JPG
>>112072

What kind of jackets do you wear? It would be cool but hard to bring back as Judo is so prevalent with critically a standardised curriculum and ruleset.

It doesn't translate to modern mixed martial arts as well as folkstyle/freestyle/catch wrestling does either which is a big reason those have either exploded in popularity or come back from near death. It's definitely something Irish people or people of Irish descent should look to preserve for cultural reasons.
>>
File: iron mountain for ants.gif (2.35 MB, 507x243)
2.35 MB
2.35 MB GIF
I would ask /tma / but there's too much risk of esoteric cope answers.
Are shoulder checks like gif related actually as powerful as depicted in media? I'm skeptical on the transfer of force from such a compact movement.
>>
>>112517
Look at the sport of rugby and look at what happens to the people who take that those hits
>>
>>112592
I checked youtube and it looks good, but those guys have a running start. Would one step generate enough momentum to achieve anything worthwhile?
>>
>>112614

Exactly. In Rugby and am guessing Gridiron Football to a degree those kind of hits have running to build momentum. The fact it's not a wide used technique in pressure-tested combat sports suggests one on one with limited space it isn't a great move..
>>
>>112643
Wasn't say it any amazing technique but
If you're charge a guy and throw a shoulder to break guard or a guy is running at you it works
much like the specific Instant that occurs in rugby it works
>>
>>112517
>>112614
>>
>>112692
>Shoulder to the jaw
I hate to be a skeptic, but it looks like it was more about the hit location than the technique employed. Red pants Retsu seemed to have hit blue pants Retsu on the chest/shoulder area.
Then again, any type of move that knocks you on your back could be considered deadly thanks to the chance of your skull bouncing on the pavement.
>>
>>112643
>The fact it's not a wide used technique in pressure-tested combat sports suggests one on one with limited space it isn't a great move..
The typical American idiocy.

Just let yourself get checked with the shoulder in wrestling bro. Just do it. Tell us how it went after you wake up.
>>
>>112866
Emphasis on 'let'. You think the other guy is just going to stand awestruck and let you do it? How many punches to the head will you take on your way in? Will you be able to follow through after your legs turn to jelly after getting rocked?
>>
>>109333
Eh,I'd say it depends on the size of the clubs in question. If we're looking at weapons that are more like an Arnis or Escrima sticks than baseball bats, then countering a "slashing" strike with a beat parry and then thrusting to the face could be construed as an effective application of epee' or sabre technique to that weapon.
>>
>>117782
I think they where talking about a collapsed baton
So I don't know how good they will be for thrusting
>>
File: Lovino.jpg (51 KB, 532x635)
51 KB
51 KB JPG
Any Italian anons that know what the author is saying in pic related? The handwriting is too confusing for me in some letters so trying to type out the paragraph was a nightmare. I want to know what guy on left is doing to guy on right and hopefully the paragraph is describing the technique. I don't know if he is punching his opponent with his guard or if he is just holding both of their blades to the guy's throat.

I guess somewhat related, but are there any other treatises that depict punching using a knucklebow, D-guard, etc. I see pommel strikes quite often but wonder if punching with the sword hilt is actually depicted in any manuals. I know there are anecdotes of it being done, but I want to know if it was considered a legitimate technique.
>>
File: Lovino 2.jpg (75 KB, 1033x512)
75 KB
75 KB JPG
>>118583
Sorry for low res pic of the caption. Pic related is higher res pic
>>
>>118584
>>118583
Here's a transcription and a translation in French (the original destination of the book):
http://ensiludium.free.fr/Lovino%20v7.pdf

Here's my english translation from the french:
"to settle a dispute, Coriolan and Scaevola are fighting with sword alone. Here, Coriolan stands in the inside guard, just and settled, Scaevola in the outside guard, well positionned.

Coriolan, the offended, advance suddendly and finds Scaevola's sword from se outside. Having found it, he quickly gives three or four dritti sgualembrati towards Scaevola's left shoulder and descending towards the knee.

Scaevola against this blows turn the true edge of his sword in the inside guard to parry them more surely. Then he responds in time and place in the same manner as these sgualembrati.

Then Coriolan having been unable to hit Scaevola finds the sword on the inside. Then he switches blows and goes with two roversi to the head. He goes with the left foot to the right hand of Scaevola, quickly bringing his right foot in front of the left.

Scaevola turn the trued edge of the sword against these roversi, going in the outside guard to parry them.
Coriolan, seeing that Scaevola is only concerned about parrying, then with great haste finds the sword on the outside and engage it in the rear of the middle. He can grasp with his left hand, the sword hand while placing his sword in defense against the opponent's sword. Then, lowering the hand (fist = pugno) of his sword below Scaevola's sword, he strikes with the guard to his teeth. He places instantly his knee and all the right leg behind the opponent's right leg and pulling the leg of Scaevola from behind, Coriolan brings him down with the hand he puts on him. Scaevola is forced to submit.

cont.
>>
>>118592
What could Scaevola do to defend himself? When Coriolan engaged the sword on the outside in the rear of the middle, Scaevola should have dodge lively (di vita) and move his left foot towards Coriolan's right hand, bringing quickly the right foot towards the left. Then he should have bring his left leg forward and not the right as he did. If Scaevola had done so, he wouldn't have been grasped, on the contrary, Coriolan haven't been given him opposition, he would have been grasped as it's shown in other play. As for the fall, the solution was to bring the leg forward, which would have help him."

And here you go, it's a very quick translation, but the text is fairly simple, simple words, etc. So you might even use an engine and compare.
>>
>>118595
>>118592
Thank you very much Anon.
>>
>>118647
You're welcome, I did it early in the morning and there was some typo, but hopefully it's understandable. I left the name of the blows in italian as I assumed you'd know them. This is the text of the entire 23rd play that extends further than what you posted. Don't hesitate to ask for more, I won't translate the whole text, but I don't refrain from doing bits here and there as my unprofessional self, it rattles up my brain so it can't be bad. Having looked at Bolognese stuff, the text wasn't too hard to understand, now doing it is another matter of course.
A weird source Lovino, did it even had any sort of success or legacy? The use of historical figures is a very interesting pedagogical tool.
>>
Did a light sparring match(boxing) with a friend and I'm absolutely dogshit at dodging, how do I practice?
>>
>>102326
Double bar toe hold. Nice.
>>
>>119803
I assume you mean slipping. Are you actually going to a gym or are you an idiot trying to learn in your backyard.
>>
>>119803
>and I'm absolutely dogshit at dodging
Parry instead, Foreman was also shit at dodging.
>>
>>119829
Up until this point, massive idiot.
>>
>>102178
Wrestling and Boxing are not martial arts. They are martial sports.

Martial arts require rituals and other traditional traits.
Fencing used to be a martial art but Europe did a cultural erasure of anything that seemed noble and traditional after 1789.
>>
>>119912

That's literally your own personal definition of the term martial art. It's great you just make up meanings based on your feels to words. But other humans use words with their specific common meanings.
>>
>>119872
Up until this point? Speak in complete sentences, massive idiot.
>>
File: DSCF6572.jpg (274 KB, 1000x1392)
274 KB
274 KB JPG
>>119803

Go to a boxing class at a gym. They will drill you in slipping, parrying, shoulder roll, and bob & weaving. You cannot learn martial arts or combat sports alone at home.
>>
>>119928
Ofc you can, a partner is recommended though.
>>
>>119966
.....it depends on what you're trying to do. If you want to actually prepare to fight people it's really not helping.
>>
>>119966
No you cant
>>120034
If you’re not preparing for fighting you’re not doing martial arts
>>
>>119966

No you cannot. And if you think you in anyway can you are retarded. You can practice at alone but to learn you actually need to physicallh interact with other people. You're so clueless and retarded.
>>
>>120035
>If you’re not preparing for fighting you’re not doing martial arts
Hard disagree. Wrestling, Thai-Chi, these are also martial arts,
>>
>>120070

Agreed. Martial arts have other aims like cultural preservation or personal development.

And wrestling absolutely prepares people for fighting, hence being the number one MMA background.

The issue is when people doing these arts that aren't purely about full contact combat, like Aikido or JJJ (which is even more enamored of tradition & spiritual stuff than modern Judo) or Wing Chun think they are as good at preparation for fighting as kickboxing, no-Gi, boxing, wrestling.
>>
>>102482
>>103294


https://andreian.com/gotch-bible/

Gotch trained with Billy Riley and Billy Robinson at the original Snakepit,

I'm not sure how far through the deck he would go himself, but I remember hearing stories about how he wouldn't train you til you could do the expected conditioning, and he wanted 500 bodyweight squats.....
>>
>>103491
>In britian is it mostly freestyle too? Since in america, freestyle has been popular, at least as a school and uni sport (especially in the midwest) for a long time.


You're more likely to find Catch being shown as part of a NoGI or MMA class, as far as I've seen.
>>
fellas I'm 29, if I start now, is it too late for me to become the strongest organism on earth??
>>
>>120397
Probably but you should try anyways. If wwiii kills most of the planet you might get the title.
>>
>>120409
Damn.. alright, guess I'll just try anyway and hope I'm build differently.
>>
>>112702

Same with most strikes, tho. Accuracy matters.

I can confirm a shoulder strike can be nasty as fuck tho, I once accidentally knocked someone out in a moshpit at a metal gig with a shoulder to the face. Had to help the bouncer carry the poor lad out the front of the venue. That was before I was training MMA, btw.

The wee short shoulder strikes are becoming fairly popular in MMA now, not became as much a thing as the calf kicks, but its another useful wee technique that folk overlook.
>>
>>120388
I am going to start
I a skeleton now and hate I haven't done anything about because I cant make it out to an MMA gym so why do anything
If I just started a year ago I would have already made progress
I am going to 13 cards right now
>>
>>122503
That was shit
I had to take a break at 8 cards
and i couldn't do half moon pushups
>>
>>102178
HEMA is a living art you dull idiot. :) Dead would be like bartitsu, nobody practices it, a lot of people practice HEMA around the world.
>>
>>102479
They are middle eastern people, Khazars were found in the dead sea region (which ashkenazis are majority from originally), therefore they are not "European" europe ends where slavlands begin and doesn't cross seas to africa or middle east.
>>
>>122507
living means it was never not practiced
hema was dead it may be back now but its not yet a living art
>>
>>122507

HEMA is great but it us a reconstruction. There is a HEMA thread. This is for living lineages that didn't die. E.g. boxing, wrestling, Oly fencing, Oly archery, competitive shooting, etc.
>>
File: item16.jpg (233 KB, 1080x1080)
233 KB
233 KB JPG
Regular Price $1,200.00
Price Today $677.00

is this a good deal? value wise

have no bills to pay (besides my gym membership)
>>
>>123149

Unless you are getting active coaching simultaneously, no one has learnt to fight from books and videos. Just find a wrestling class and actually wrestle.
>>
>>123187
I get what your saying, I am in a wrestling club right now it's twice a week.
My thinking is just adding this to what i am already learning to improve.
I am fairly new to wrestling I just don't know whats good and whats shit.
>>
>>123231

Fair enough since you are actually wrestling than sure go for it. All those are well regarded people. My MMA school's catch wrestling lineage is from Erik Paulson. Ironic as we're in Britain but no where near the Snakepit.
>>
>>122506
I Just wanted to share a modification I made to Gotch's bible to make it more doable
Just split the deck in half and take the lower 24 cards and one jack
It feel like I did something when i complete the deck
>>
>>120388
>>123368

We do this with half a deck for pre comp BJJ conditioning at my MMA gym. It's good. Though I prefer barbell strength training, boxing training, and HIIT circuits/complexes for my grappling conditioning desu.
>>
What is the best WMA for Knife Fighting?
I hear good things about boxing focusing purely on fast hand movement.
Greco-Roman would make sense as well controlling the upper body and arms
>>
What's your favorite catch submission and why?
Arm bar for me it the first sub I got.
>>
>>124212

None survived the transition to gunpowder weapons as living lineages. There was single stick in the British Navy which came from small swords but this died out after WWI. There's bayonet fighting which has a living lineage to small spears and blade I believe. There's also Philippino Eskrima which is directly about using knives and has a partial WMA lineage.

So am afraid likely this is a combat form that needs to be reconstructed so belong in the HEMA thread not here which is for living WMA lineages.
>>
>>125318
That is DOPE
Shame it is died
I think I will post about it in HEMA
>>
>>102178
>>102247
>>102281
>>104593
Is there still a living tradition of canne for self defence, the sport version uses very light sticks for safety reasons and techniques that don't look very useful without the rules.
>>
>>125952
>>125775

French single stick I.e. Canne de Combat seems to still be alive, not a reconstruction based on manuals. The HEMA guys posted this good video (albeit 20 year old): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqh4IKSA64

I struggled to find information on it when had a quick look so anything more recent would be great and since it's a living lineage it definitely can be discussed here.
>>
>>125966
You get more results if you search in french. This channel has a lot of current stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP6JKxGxivI




Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.