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Discuss Western Martial Arts. I.e. living non-HEMA arts with documented Western/European lineages.

Anymore to add to this list?
- Wrestling (Catch-as-Can, freestyle, Greco-Roman)
- Boxing (Bare Knuckle, amateur, professional, Savate)
- Fencing (foil, epee, saber, single stick - can this one be classed as living still?)
- Archery (target, field, clout, crossbow, flight)
- Shooting (multigun, bullseye, field, rapid, clay, running)

Add and discuss any you think fit the criteria (I.e. a living art with documented Western/European lineage).

Modern hybrid arts with mixed Eastern-Western lineges like Kickboxing, Submission Grappling; or historic reconstructed arts like HEMA are great but not what this thread is for.
Would love to learn more about pugilism/bareknuckle boxing before the Marquess of Queensberry Rules became widespread.
But that might fall more into the HEMA category for your liking.
Modern bareknuckle is still done with wraps and usually uses modern boxing rules only without the gloves. So the way they fight is quite different from how they used to fight in bareknuckle according to records from the time.
It does, there’s HEMA groups who study old pugilism manuals.


That is, unless you want too (God help you!) study bartitsu.
>That is, unless you want too (God help you!) study bartitsu.
I am still not convinced that is a real thing. It just seems too much like a gimmick you would find a add for in a turn of the censtory pulp book next to lead flavored lolipops or something, then something people at any point seriously did.
Kind of like most of the ninja stuff of the 80s that you would find ads for in comic books.
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Good point. I had thought of modern Bare Knuckle as a living continuation of historic pre-Queensbury puglism since in the UK at least Irish Travellers/Gypsies kept the art alive, albeit underground, and never stopped practicing it with organised fights.

I mean Baritsu does seem to be real and documented with clubs practising it. If it was effective vs someone trained in puglism & old fashioned catch wrestling is definitely a good question. I would suspect not, even if the creator/practioner's intentions were genuine.

It would seem to be in a weird place. I.e. it is a historical hybrid art. Not HEMA as no medieval practice but still historical albeit with a mixed Eastern-Western lineage.

Good shout. Seems to have a cross training relationship with savate similar to how Jeet Kune Do is cross trained with Eskrima.

Was alive as recently as 2019 Internationally which suggests it is alive and practiced not historical either.
Catch and freestyle wrestling seem to be making a comeback in the UK thanks to people learning about its lineage to MMA via shootfighting, U.S. & Russian wrestlers success in that sport, and no-Gi BJJ.

Which is awesome as it was dead growing up in the 1990s down South at least in England. With people only knowing Pro Wrestling or maybe Greco-Roman because of the Olympics (but even those were rarely trained anywhere esp Greco).

Now I see legitimate wrestling classes in most medium sized towns around me. Some with classic British lineages that were small historic clubs which never stopped since the early 1900s, some run by American ex-pats teaching freestyle, some run by Russian/Central Asian immigrants.
>I am still not convinced that is a real thing.
Bartitsu absolutely was a real thing, it was basically early MMA, mixing boxing, canne de vigny and some japanese wrestling (). But there's no legit lineage, it's entirely reconstructed and you might as well wonder why since you could just... do judo and boxing. It was a pretty special format in the late 19th century, but not, mixing these two is nothing special.
Anything Bartitsu done now is usually just steampunk-esque LARP and is just silly overall. It's not training in the spirit of Barton-Wright, it's just doing passé boxing and jujutsu in victorian garb.
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That's my understanding of it. Since it's a reconstruction with no legitimate lineage I would argue it belong in the HEMA thread. But since it's a hybrid style with a partly Eastern Japanese JuJutsu lineage they might argue it doesn't belong there either. Like I said earlier it's a weird case.

It's interesting from a martial arts history p.o.v. but again as I mentioned, I really doubt it would be particularly effective against bare-knuckle boxing and catch-as-can wrestling. Both of which are still alive with documented lineages (bare-knuckle via gypsies/travellers/underground fighting).
Krav Maga potentially belongs here. It has an absolutely documented Western lineage (despite what /pol/ may get triggered and cry about) in its earliest form, being created in Eastern Europe by a European boxer/wrestler.

Though the modern form I believe takes techniques from Japanese arts like aikido, karate, etc. so would be more of an East-West hybrid art like modern kickboxing or MMA.
don't know if it counts since it was based on japanese styles, but there is German Jujutsu

Yeah it seems like a precursor to modern MMA (i.e. striking, grappling, taekdowns, submission in a gi) with a self-defence focus. It's pretty big at a university level in the UK and I know a few people including coaches.

It doesn't really fit since it would be a modern hybrid art, a non-Japanese development of Judo, like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is.

The people who do it are nice enough but I find its pseudo-Japanese trappings a bit cringe and culty especially as how they focus a lot on UK university/college recruitment, as it was introduced to the UK by students of German teachers and has no existing relationship back to modern Japan.
It's good to see classic Western martial arts like bare-knuckle boxing and catch wrestling make a comeback, as well people respecting WMA like boxing & wrestling as legitimate martial arts. Hyped to watch BKFC.

Weeb shit via bullshido schools and mcdojos dominated for too long especially as I grew up in the 90s & 00s.

Wrestling in the UK was dead. I can't think of anywhere you could have learnt it except accidentally at some pro wrestling organisations.

Boxing was not seen as a real martial art compared with Karate & Kung-Fu, or even Kickboxing & Muay Thai despite both those later two having a Western boxing hybrid lineage.

I honestly think in terms of effectiveness and practicality WMA like the ones in the OP beat Eastern martial arts much of the time. Tho obvs modern hybrid arts like MMA, K1 kickboxing, and submission wrestling are the best of both worlds.
wtf is german jujitsu? what makes it a distinct thing?
Though on the topic of stand up wrestling in the greco-roman tradition, ringen is a medieval stand up wrestling system from the medieval age german states, and wrestling of that sort more focused on throws and stuff where popular for a similar reason as judo in japan. One of course, most people had knives on them, so boxing was kinda not as big of a thing, but also, armored combat often required it for taking down armored opponents. It was a pretty popular topic in medieval manuscripts and a lot of armored fighting was centered around it. But also a decent bit of unarmored.
I mean, the cane fighting part of it was pretty interesting, thing it took quite a bit from period and historical sword fighting, particularly saber and smallsword stuff. but also some singlestick as well.
I would tentatively agree, but the thing is, it seems the name has super loose control of itself and what IT even is. Krav was my introduction to martial arts, and thankfully I had a good school. very small classes and the two main instructors where a police cheif boxer and a all around mma guy with focus on bjj and general mma stuff. And that seems pretty true to its routes sans bjj for more wrestling. But Krav isnt a definitive style and more of an ethos of frank combativeness, which has its pros, but it also not being strict, but more of a name allows for some really retarded tacticool shit schools and not having a super distinct nature besides being "self defence oriented" in a nebulous way.

Yeah I would argue it is a WMA since it's categorically Ashkenazi in origin and they are (despite what /pol/ or even they themselves may believe) categorically a European people.

And its lineage begins with straight-up Western boxing and wrestling trained in Europe. Moder KM prob has more non-Western Muay Thai, and BJJ techniques in making it a modern hybrid art like MMA.
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German Jiu Jitsu is a hybrid art that combines techniques from Judo (pre WWII forms afaik), Aikido, JJJ, and Shotokan Karate among others.

It originated in Germany in the 1940s/1950s but spread to Australia and Britain heavily. It's actually huge in the UK at a college/university level as the Jitsu Foundation.

It's gi based and has a lot of Japanese terminology and traditional martial arts trappings, despite being a completely modern invention by non-Japanese with no connection at all to modern Japan.
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Anyone know what old-skool Catch Wrestlers did for conditioning? These guys are solid. They look better built than modern MMA fighters running PEDs ffs.
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Sambo is a hybrid art drawing on a mixed Eastern-Western lineage. But based as fuck.
eh… doesnt really seem western in lineage since its largely just a splatering of japanese pre war techniques even if ruleset and practitioners are mostly euro. I want to say no in terms of the spirit of the law if not the letter.

since most of the conversation around it would be more relivent to japanese martial arts.
idk why you keep bringing up pol, i dont think anyone disputed its europeaness in that way.

more that its not necissarily as systemized as other general “forms”. though I do think that the founder had some judo influence or some shit, but i think it was largely boxing and wrestling like you said.

Agreed. I was explaining it to the person who asked.
SCA, while intentionally anachronistic, could be classed as a living martial art as many of the techniques and weapons used in it are only very loosely based on historical examples. Plenty of guys go with the standard poppenheimer guard because it’s cheap, it’s light and it works, but plenty more will try to dual wield spears in case sword or use fuckhueg 48 inch rapiers or try to make an SCA legal claymore with a one-handed guard (if you’ve ever seen forged in fire, you’d know that most blades that size floppy enough to be safe would likely splinter into a thousand pieces before it even reaches the battlefield) the SCA kingdom world is very much a framework that different chapters use in very different ways. You’ve got chapters that just like to get drunk and curse in Middle English while watching jousting tournaments, you’ve got guys that are just blacksmithing nerds that want to remind the world exactly why X type of weapon is not used against Y weapon under any circumstances and you’ve got guys that actually want to compete seriously in a less restrictive and heavier form of fencing than epee. SCA rapier allows offhands in its standard form, has another division for “case sword;” or dual-wielding weapons of the same length, and also has no restrictions about where the line is and isn’t. It’s wickedly fast and you have to be able to parry from any conceivable direction. Even yeeting your own weapon at your enemy is not technically disallowed. SCA is less like what MMA is to street fighting and more like a melee-range version of airsoft or paintball.

I'd class it as HEMA even tho it purposefully has anachronistic elements. It still seems to be an attempt at recreating lost European martial arts in spirit if not exact execution. So would be appropriate for the HEMA thread.
Dear wma general,

You can keep the SCA fags.

HEMA general

SCA seems stereotypically HEMA to me as a non-HEMA person. Their whole thing is to recreate the kind of combat of medieval Europe with their armour meant to look historical. Why don't you consider it HEMA?
> Their whole thing is to recreate the kind of combat of medieval Europe with their armour meant to look historical. Why don't you consider it HEMA?
It’s in the name, they’re anachronistic. HEMA, at least in theory, I can’t say everyone does this in practice, is supposed to try and recreate historical fighting arts based on historical evidence. The SCA bases their sport on basically nothing besides fiction. Consider this, hand hits are one of the most high percentage attacks in HEMA. Hand hits don’t count in the SCA. It creates stupid shit practices like the “wrap shot” where they try and hit the back of the head around a shield which would be completely retarded in real life because if you overextend yourself like that you’re asking to lose your hand. Nevermind the fact that their “armored fighting” is basically just stick tag and not actually related to real armored fighting where wrestling, stabbing gaps, or blunt force trauma are the only way to kill your opponent. HEMAists don’t do the last of those three things because nobody wants to actually die, but real armored combat with a sword looks way different from what you’d see at an SCA meetup and there are some HEMA fags who try to reconstruct this


Long story short HEMA tries its best to be historical and an actual martial art. SCA is a larp which is fine if that’s what you’re into but I used to browse /asp/ before it got fucked by Hiroshimoot and remember how clueless the SCA was about actual historical martial arts, anyone claiming it is even remotely similar is impressively retarded.

On a personal note I hate the pageantry and theatrics in the sca where they wear costumes and pretend to be kings and shit. If that’s what you’re into fine but don’t pretend this is a sport. Shits mega gay.

Interesting. It doesn't sound like it belongs here either if it's LARPing. Unless any SCAfags can demonstrate other wise its a martial art, I.e. 'codified systems and traditions of combat practiced for a number of reasons such as self-defense; military and law enforcement applications; competition; physical, mental, and spiritual development; entertainment; and the preservation of a nation's intangible cultural heritage."

The intent of this general was to promote discussion of modern living Western martial arts with documented lineages any way like those described in the OP.
Is the point to actually fight against a resisting opponent, is there a coherent "sca system" that can be taught (seems like it's not the case)? A ruleset doesn't make an art, just like UFC isn't a martial art.
Is there even a martial pursuit like in Kendo?

I really don't see how SCA is in any way a martial art, they fence and all, but by itself it's not a martial art, partly because it's disorganised as the Anachronistic suggest.
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Agreed. Though a ruleset can lead to an art especially in Western Martial Arts. E.g. modern boxing is a martial art that formed following the establishment of the Queenbury rules.

MMA is taught as an art in itself nowadays and again formed from the early UFCs and unified MMA rules established.

I guess another example would be, should Dog Brothers be considered a martial art in itself?

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