ITT Orthodox Christians gather.
Bros I've fallen in love. There's this woman at my parish, she's So Beautiful, blue eyes, she doesn't wear a Spec of make up, dresses, Modestly, Cooks good food. Gospodi pomilui I can't stop thinking about her.
>>4176269Oh BTW gif unrelated.
I hate the antichrist! I love jewish death cults!
Tell me anons, tell me about how Jesus revealed the truth about the phoenician snake worshipin merchants after coming back from studying in Alexandria?
>>4176269good for you
>>4176240>>4176240What is the sauce of the song ?
>>4176269Go for it, God willing you get far, get married and have children
the only real christians are Sedevacantist Catholics
blessed thread, surely this thread will feature nothing but posts appreciating the one true God
>>4176938Is this the original chant that was reversed and used in Eyes Wide Shut?>>4177127Looks like straight out of Warhammer 40K
>>4176932wasted nightcore remix
>>4177173I do think so
>>4177173>Looks like straight out of Warhammer 40KWH40K aesthetic is based on medieval Christianity, it's only natural a medieval church will look warhammer like.
>>4176240>Orthodox>has crusader imageryI really wish the people who make these would stop idolising the Crusaders that butchered the Byzantine Empire and left it to the Turks
>>4176240>adding effects and images over icons>terrible music with curses>heretical images and fake icons>crusadersthis is just awful.
none of you had enough faith to get the holy quints. Jesus is cringing.>>4177777
>>4177127>>4177328The soundtrack is from >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YirkpurLHkUa Warhammer 40k game based on the Adeptus Mechanicus
>>4180596They can read the Torah, it's the Italian fanfic attached to it that makes them seethe.
>>4181030>ItalianI'm trying to figure out if you're a Jew or some other stupid larp from such a stupid statement.
>>4176196This goes pretty hard, ngl.
>>4177123Based and cringe. Attend an orthodox mass. You'd be surprised how in common your goals are.
>>4176938I don't think she likes me, She probably thinks I'm a weirdo sperg. Her brother and I, who I'm friends with are always talking about The "Based and redpilled Chad Eastern Romans" and stuff like that.
>>4181299Well then don't do that
>>4181071>he doesn't know
>>4176192Yhwh is a lizard cunt
>>4177123t. peter dimond
>>4182257for me, it's Rama P COOMaraswamy
>>4181695whats wrong with lizards
>>4177123>the only real ChristiansEvangelists who pray and read the Bible.Those who denounce the Son of God are anti-Christs, and those who do not do his will are lukewarm.It doesn't get any more special or complicated than that, pride comes before the fall my friend.
>>4181695>guys the god of the people who call themselves Jews is a lizardWhat does the Kabbalah have to do with Christian larp clubs?The chosen people are the White race, and the people who call themselves Jews are Satan's spawn.Of course they would worship a giant lizard man, but again what does this have to do with me?
>>4182659Christianity was invented by Romans.
>>4182754>MUH PISO-FLAVIAN DYNASTY!!!!!!you act like the Church Fathers and the diptychs never existed.
>>4182771The smoking gun is the fact that Titus was recognized as the fulfillment of Jewish messianic prophecies by Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius, just as second Isaiah had identified Cyrus the Great as the Lord's anointed in Isaiah 45.https://www.creatingchrist.com/post/robert-m-price-review-of-creating-christOne of the earliest Christian saints buried in Rome, Flavia Domitilla, granddaughter of Vespasian and a niece of Titus and Domitian, was married to Titus Flavius Clemens. The first Apostolic Father and successor of Peter, Clemens Romanus, was either a freedman of Titus Flavius Clemens or the consul himself. Both were accused of impiety/atheism by Domitian for holding "Jewish views" (i.e. Christianity), with Domitilla being banished to an island and Clemens executed.The Flavians were also the only ones to use the fish and anchor as their symbol, which was "coincidentally" the earliest Christian symbol, even older than the cross, and found abundantly in Christian catacombs such as St. Priscilla's.
>>4177473Maybe they shouldn't have massacred the Latins, reap what you sow and all.
>>4182669What the fuck is that webm?
>>4177134Blessed thread indeed!https://christiansfortruth.com/
>>4177127Fuck me that is a beautiful building. Nothing like that could ever be built in the US.
>>4183434u mad, alt-righer?
There is no Orthodox Church without reclaiming Constantinople.
>>4176192Wasnt expecting to see this while scrolling through 4chan
>>4177328It isnt a medieval church
>>4183381The meme you post is entirely inappropriate anon
>>4182929The Massacre of the Latins had nothing to do with the fourth crusade, it was the greed of the Venetians and RCs believing they were superior over actual Christians.Also, I was referring to the First Crusade as well, the Catholics refused to return the Byzantine lands to their rightful owners but established Latin feudal kingdoms and filled patriarchal sees with Latins
>>4177173>Is this the original chant that was reversed and used in Eyes Wide Shut?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHRLoVmPeLU
>>4176192You are a false prophet, god is a superstition.
>>4182669Your webm misses out the part that talks about attacking the snake
>>4176192First time I heard this song in English. Beautiful, very beautiful.God bless, brothers. Tis tough times, but that's where a man with faith prevails.
>>4187139This priest has a really long Thumb. It's kinda cool not gonna lie.
I am "new" to Christianity and looking for good material (aside from the bible itself) to start off with. I went to prot churches as a kid and spent most of my young adulthood as an atheist. I'm interested in Orthodoxy but don't know a lot about it. Checked out an Antiochian church but felt out of place.Any advice, anons?
>>4180596>YHWH uses his Chosen People to enact the sacrifice that saves humanity from Adam's fallProblem, goy?
>>4187327Orthodoxy is an ethnic religion. Quit LARPing would be a good advice to start out with.
more Christian gifs please
>>4187352>Orthodoxy is an ethnic religion4chan late-adopter rightwingers aren't an ethnic group
>medieval icon in vhs static and neon VGH>masturbates to sissy hypno>RETVRN>doesn't attend churchTO TRADITION
>>4187352>Orthodoxy is an ethnic religion.Only an american could give ethnicity to faith, but I'll forgive your ignorance considered your people hold unto their ancestry like a monkey on falling tree branch.
>>4187844lol okay I'm sure the Russians would be cool with a flood of Hondurans in their Parish.
>>4186169Don't be such an intolerant "Christian". God is watching.
>>4187927>God proves he exists>faith no longer needed to believe in him>still the alpha and omega>all is well, except we're no longer blessed for believing without seeing, since we have clear proofHe does it because he loves you, anon.
>>4187327What translation of Bible do you read? If you're not already, look into getting one with lots of footnotes and annotations. It can really help give more context and understanding to a lot of passages without you having to jump online and do heavy research every time.>>4187352Ah yes, because we really need another thread for you to try and ruin by attempting to convert everyone to Catholocism in the most roundabout way. Just go make a /wsg/ Catholic thread and stay there.
>4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;Go ahead, Orthodox bros. Tell me how the icons you hold so dear to aren't a direct violation of this commandment.
>>4188908God's talking about idols, if you think orthodoxy venerates icons like jews venerated the golden bull you're a bit confused, of course idol worshipping exists everywhere but you can't condemn the doctrine based on the actions of some people.
I'm born and baptized Catholic but I love you guysNot gonna pretend I'm smart enough to know the theological differences between usI love the Orthobros and I hope they love us back
>>4188908Making an image of something like a sculpture, a drawing or anything like that does not break this commandment, because even though some scribe broke it down into two verses it is still one whole item and should be understood as such. You can carry a crucifix or images of saints as mementos to remind you of your faith or to communicate your beliefs to others, there's absolutely no problem with that. The real problem is what >>4188931 says.
>>4187352>Orthodoxy is an ethnic religion.most retarded thing Ive read all day
>>4187817>projecting this hard
>>4187814Kek, not yet
>>4188908Icons aren't graven images, and we do not worship the images. You can make an idol out of anything, including your own false sense of self righteousness. Having icons allows the priests to teach the laity proper discernment of these things.
>>4189130You converted to Christianity because of ethics in gaming journalism to dab on the leftards because your entire personality is defined by an imaginary culture war with a rival website.
>>4189358>You converted to Christianity because of [dumb reason]If he's legit and it sticks then I don't care if people convert because they hear a talking donkey. God can use anything He wants to achieve His will.>ethics in gaming journalism to dab on the leftards because your entire personality is defined by an imaginary culture war with a rival website.Imagine letting a stupid old /v/ moment live in your head rent free for 7 years.
>>4189385Not him, but your meme vocabulary is pretty solid proof that you are, inevitably, just a gamergater.
>>4189385Like it or not, le gamergate was the catalyst for most of this website's political awakening and we're still living with the pathetic consequences of that. I literally watched Christianity grow on 4chan. It was a contrarian meme.
Any real Catholic Orthodox here? Have you been baptized? If not, shut up.
>>4189895>T. Protestant who's mad at Orthodox Catechumens for leaving his Heretical 50000000000000000000000nth variation of a variation of a split of a sub group of a protestant Denomination.
>>4189518More people came to this site because of the Trump election than Gamergate. It didn't matter what (if any) catalyst caused a surge here, it was inevitable. More and more people use this site than ever before and everything has become hyperpoliticised over the past 5 years.
Imaging converting to some random institution because you're too scared of the modern world.Imagine making up your mind based on garbage you see written on an anonymous website.Imagine using such website to gather more converts to your cult.Imagine being so weak and pathetic that you must constantly shill this cult because, deep down, you're feeling alone and want more friends.Imagine all of this and still pretending you're stronger than everyone else and possess the TRUTH.
>>4190771I've been visiting this website from time to time since 2010 and literally never seen a Christian or spiritual surge before 2016. After 4chan helped electing Trump by the use of memes and mass spread though the internet, it seems like ideological groups got notice of how to use this website for their own purposes. But since this is an anonymous platform we'll never truly know who's behind the propaganda.
Why can't anyone who believes in Jesus be considered a Christian?
>>4187327Read some Desert Fathers or St. Augstine (esp. Confessions)
>>4190831Because they may believe in actual non-Christian ideals, like the Mormons who don't accept the Trinity or do baptisms for the dead.
>>4190831They've literally been fighting over stupid bullshit like this for two thousand god-damned years. You're not going to get a satisfactory answer.
>>4188378His love is weak and pathetic. I got baphomet.
>>4191045Baphomet wants to watch you suffer hellfire with him, he detests you more than you know, his hatred for humanity his sole drive, as is with most demons.
>>4177127>soviet symbols>jerking off the """people""" that wanted to destroy the faithFuck Russia
>>4188936this p much sums up our attitude to one another (I am also Catholic)
>>4191045>>4191321Baphomet is literally just French people butchering the pronunciation of Mohamed. Mohamed = Mahomet = Baphomet.It was a conspiracy theory at the time of the crusades that the templars had begun worshipping the devil/Muslim god and the word got corrupted from there.
>>4187927Doubt is an essential part of belief, it’s what separates passionate commitment to a cause and simple logistical planning, absolute certainty requires no courage or commitment, and therefore cannot result in genuine love. Men going into battle are not certain of their victory, but they believe in it. A couple walking down the aisle are not certain of their eternal love, but they believe in it. I have no way to be certain about God, but I believe in Him.I choose to believe in God because of His love for me and the sacrifice He made for me. If my belief was based on some unequivocal evidence it would be hard not to worship God out of expediency, turning passionate faith and love into little more than sycophantic, self-serving appeasement. That’s not what God wants, nor is it what any Christian should want.
>>4191045So a tranny goat demon who'll rape you to death eternally in hell? k lol
>>4191359true honestly. And Putin is only doing all this christian stuff for pr, just a larp really.
>>4191462>That’s not what God wantsAt some point you realize typing this sentence is utter hubris.
>>4182771>MUH PISO-FLAVIAN DYNASTY!!!!!!>>4182802>Uh, ackshually; MUH PISO-FLAVIAN DYNASTY!!!!!!
>>4193360>>4182802P.S: Valliant is a seething kike that worships ayn fucking rand, and Fahy is a fucking FICTION WRITER, who only gained any praise ON ANY WORKS (from only juden critics) AFTER he helped Valliant write that rag.In short: Go away, rabbi.
>>4193360>>4193364You say that but the one arguing in bad faith and resorting to fallacies like a Jew is you.
>>4193364Ayn Rand is great. Dismantled /pol/ almost a century in advance.
>>4191359>wanted to destroy the faithBased Russia
>>4188378Why would a God bless gullible people who believe without seeing? John 20:29 has to be the most low effort attempt at convincing people reading the bible that being an idiot is somehow praiseworthy.
>>4190831Well what do you mean by belief in Jesus? You're not a Christian if you simply recognise the historical man that is easily attestable in historical documentation. If it's belief that Jesus is everything he said he is then you also walk a fine line. The Devil recognises Christ for what he is, but he sure isn't a Christian. Adding Mormon nonsense like Christ's Injun ministries (and many other things) or denying the Trinity which Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientiests also deny also doesn't make you a Christian. Unless it's a deathbed conversion you've got to believe (the right thing) and then walk the walk.
>>4193475Ayn Rand dismantled herself when she spent her last remaning years on welfare.
>>4193564>Why would a God bless gullible people who believe without seeing?Because if it's true then it's more impressive than those who only believe after seeing, which for us today also comes with eternal punishment.
>>4194041Nothing wrong with taking back what was stolen from you.
>>4194045Taxation is not theft.
>>4194047Never said it was. But it can certainly be theft.
>>4194042>being gullible and believing without seeing is impressive to an omniscient creatorThis God sure has low standards.
>>4193564He loves you so much that he will throw you in a fiery hell to burn for all eternity if you don't do what he says or worship him. You guys talk about salvation, yet the one offering you salvation is also threatening you with punishment it's not really salvation but extortion and terrorism. Fuck your hypocrite god, I have baphomet.
>>4194386We are fallen beings, already condemned, not by God but by our own sin. It is sin itself that sends us down to Hell, because like any kind of betrayal it creates a rift between us and everything good, i.e. God. God does not sin, He simply offers us a path back to goodness through Him and His sacrifice.
>>4194523>not by God but by our own sin>God creates Man with the drive to do [thing God doesn't like], knowing he will do it>Condemns Man when he does it, then expects Man to believe in a nonsensical religious text to become "impressive" in his eyes and no longer condemnable I know you guys just proselytize mechanically here but do you ever stop to question why you follow this shit?
>>4194612because following Christ has real observable effects in one's life. Being filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and God's unconditional love is an indescribable feeling.
>>4194612>why do *sniff* bab things habben to goob ppl?
>>4194751That explains why the most religious countries are all shitholes. They're filled with the love of a shitheaded god.>>4194758Because God wills it obviously.
>>4193564He doesn't just bless you for believing without seeing, it's not that transactional. Think of it this way: you believe without proof and change your ways for the better, so you start reaping the benefits of that behavior much sooner that those who wait until they have clear definitive proof. In that sense, you are blessed and the others aren't.It's not that he's "impressed" like >>4194042 says, there's literary nothing you can do to impress God.
>>4187844>Only an american could give ethnicity to faith.>what are yazidi
does anyone know of a german catholic bible translation with which orthodox christians take the least offense? i'm also new to christianty and am mostly interested in the common denominator of catholicism and orthodoxy, so i want to read a bible which is "accepted" by caholic theologians and as close to as being accepted by orthodox theologians as it gets.
>>4194751>Being filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and God's unconditional love is an indescribable feeling.>i believe in god because it feels so damn good, im gonna coooooooom
>>4191359soviet symbols are symbols of Great Patriotic Waryou can't really separate them
>>4195239>with which orthodox christians take the least offense?Time to just learn Greek then. In all seriousness, don't be afraid to read multiple translations. Unless you're going to learn the original two languages then you're always going to read something that falls short of the original intent, so seeing many perspectives through different translations can help give more rounded ideas.
>>4187327I went from athiest to Orthodox over the course of almost 4 years. Don't rush into it. Start by reading the bible and prayer. Then when you're ready, start attending DIFFERENT Orthodox churches in your area. Pick the one that suits you best spiritually.
>>4177123Sedevacantists are like Martin Luther: They reject Rome, but refuse Orthodoxy out of stubbornness, and act their own wisdom instead of councils.
While I had a good talk with some orthobros I can't help but notice they're such doomercoomers
>>4196352Online is very different from irl, you're getting a really specific type of person. Try going to an Orthodox church near you sometime
>>4195239Probably KJV, I'm sure you've got that in german
>>4194386This isnt what the Orthodox believe about hell, why come to this thread when you dont even know who you're speaking to?
>>4191045Baphomet isn't a deity, retard - it's a symbolic representation of the mystical union of the masculine and feminine principles for the purpose of conducting witchcraft. Lucifer is the one you want; if you want to burn in Hell, that is.
>>4196417Lucifer isn't a deity either, retard. He's a Babylonian king in the Book of Isaiah, who was later conflated with an angel from the Book of Job referred to as Satan. Both characters were further conflated with the snake from the Book of Genesis, which was literally just the animal snake. There's no rebellious angel who fell from heaven to live in an underground lava pit torturing people anywhere in the Old Testament, this is all Christian headcanon based on apocryphal texts.
>>4176192Why does this sound like SOAD
What do you guys think of Terry A. Davis? Do you think that God was talking to him or not?
>>4196417>>4196712Lucifer is the Latin word for the Morning Star. The passage in Isaiah is an analogy comparing the Babylonian king to a Babylonian deity that tried to rule the heavens, but, much like Venus, was made irrelevant the moment the sun came out. The message is clear, the king thinks that he is great, but compared to God he is nothing, you can't even see him shining.In Revelation the church in Thyatira are promised the Morning Star. At the end of the book Christ refers to Himself as the Morning Star. I think the comparison is the same, with the Son saying that the Father is simply that much greater.
>>4196805Every "madman" is experiencing something he can't really understand, be it demonic possession or anything else. In shamanistic religions they are taught how to manage their gifts and how not to be consumed by them.
>>4176192Thoughts on Catholics, Orthodoxbros?
>>4198285We are all children of God, they are brothers who choose a different path, both higher ups are made up by corrupt elites anyway.
>>4198288Are you Orthodox? I'm Catholic myself but hold a deep disdain for the papacy for the most part, and a good sense of respect for my Orthodox brothers. My confirmation saint is John Chrysostom, actually. Love his homilies. >>4196940Also, "Satan" is (Hebrew?) for "The Adversary" so at the time it probably was intended for a symbolism of the Babylonian empire.
Бoжe блять пиндocня eбaнaя кoгдa вы yжe cчaхнeтe нaхyй. Pyки пpoчь c мoeй кyльтypы, пиздoлизы вoнючиe!
>>4198516Бyдь дoбp бpaт
>>4191502Egomia, Pt. 1 (Live Lebanon 2017)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViI7VhB8iVw
Jeбeм cвим aмepикaнцимa y oвoм тхpeaдy мaмy
you will never be orthodox, especially if you're american leave it alone, you will just turn it gay like every other religion that last graced your path. Fuck westerners
>>4188908The Ark of the Covenant in the Temple was surrounded by two golden statues of seraphim. Is this idolatry? God is very clearly instructing the Jews against images made for worship as gods. Not against any image whatsoever. Look at the Dura-Europos Synagogue they've excavated — one of the oldest, most well preserved synagogues. Covered with religious art. Same with the Dura Europos church, the oldest preserved in the world.
>>4198730Converts are radical and traditionalistic. The ones turning it gay are the diaspora Greeks adoring their schismatic crypto-uniate Patriarch of Constantinople.
>>4198854Not him but the The Ark of the Covenant is very different from Catholic statues and Orthodox icons. First because it was explicitly ordered by God Himself to by made. Second, it was kept in the Holy of Holies, accessible only by the High Priest. Finally, it was a seat of God's very presence among humans. Quite different from art made by people portraying people for people to bow before.
>>4196766For real though, did SOAD base their style on this music?
>>4199805They're all Armenian so were probably brought up Armenian Orthodox. 3 of them went to an Armenian school in LA as well where I'm sure they'd have heard more stuff like that. It very well could have influenced their style.
>>4191449>>4191045this thread has been highly educational. now I can dab on the 16 year old iconoclastic tryhards like >>4191045
>>4191449Be that as it may, any modern supporters of Baphomet are simply devil worshippers, either because they're rebellious teenagers or simply retardation.
>>4194751Not trying to be rude, but what distinguishes this feeling from delusion? I can go feel god's love on 15 tabs of acid, does that make it real? Is it only real when I am sober and subconsciously create a serotonin feedback loop based on stimulating group experience and iconography? I don't understand how convincing yourself you can "feel" god's love is any different from convincing yourself that the cashier at the grocery store secretly wants you because you're lonely and she made eye contact.
>>4199875Not the anon but just be normal please. This line of thinking and reasoning is a self-convincing charlatanism. Billions of people, almost all of mankind throughout history can feel His love as natural as anything else in their lives. Their own mores and descriptions and customs and cultural anecdotes varying, it's all the same at the end of the day. Have you stopped to consider not being able to understand and actualize these feelings is delusion in and of itself? To over rationalize, to try to define everything with pseudoscientific metric, to reduce millennia of proven faith bringing light to life as a fool's wet dream -- you have no question at hand, only a great fear.
>>4199922You're the one being pseudoscientific, not answering my question and saying "just be normal" lmao. Explain to me why church and "religious experiences" in a group setting isn't just mass psychogenic illness, and that your feeling of "god's love" isn't just a self-induced serotonin feedback loop. I didn't say it was, but considering I got a non-answer, I have to ask the question again.
>>4199938I told you to be normal because your behavior is very much not. I am not capable of judging whether you are on the spectrum or not, but if you were, that would at least give you some defense. If you're not, you're gravely ill and the only cure is to open your heart and try to return to norrmalcy. Forcing yourself to look at people being happy as "mass psychogenic illness" should be a warning sign blaring louder than a storm siren. I will reiterate what was said. You have no question to ask, and thus I will not answer. You are harboring a great fear, or a social misunderstanding of what it means to be man. For that I am greatly sorry. My advice is to surround yourself with family and loved ones, go to church or your regional equivalent, and search for the kindness in the world. You do not understand merely by being given words. That is not wisdom. Be normal. Go outside. Stop being "that guy."
To parrot loaded non-arguments you've shuffled from the minds of high school atheists, reddit users, or the average city slicker who has been sheltered from faith, and to expect an answer refuting them? Surely you have better self-indulgent things to do than that
>>4194386You'll still go to hell. It's a myth that anyone but God controls hell.
>>4199922>Billions of people, almost all of mankind throughout history can feel His love as natural as anything else in their lives. Their own mores and descriptions and customs and cultural anecdotes varying, it's all the same at the end of the daywhat a load of crap lolimagine reducing the entirety of human experience to your religion's myopic worldview and saying it's all the same and this just not to have to admit to yourself that maybe the things you believe in aren't the basis of reality, but simply another case of man projecting himself and anthropormophizing the nature of being
>>4200006I pity you. It must be trying to feel so alone, and unloved. Alienated from your common man, to shut out faith. This is the path of the less than human who reduce their existence to statistics and fragile observation based "fact." Observe these nuts while you're burning in hell, lest you have a change of heart. Cheers
>>4200036>it's another teenager who "converted" because of the based and traditonal orthodox memelmao how embarrassing
>>4200036>It must be trying to feel so alone, and unloved.t. alt-righter
>>4200059they are traditionally corrupt anon
>>4194612Just because God gives us free will doesn't mean we are forced to do wrong things by Him.Just because God knows we are going to sin doesn't mean that He is forcing us to sin.We can retain our free will even though God knows what we are going to do in the future because He promises not to infringe on our free will.The only time you are predestined to commit sin is if you know that in the future you will commit a sin and despite knowing thusly, you cannot change the outcome. But if some observer is watching to whom time is but a subject. One who also vows to not interfere, then you may trust Him to be true to His word and not interfere.Just because God created you with the capacity to sin doesn't mean that He forces you to sin. Just because God might know you will sin in the future doesn't mean that He is forcing you to sin. You get to make those choices yourself. Maybe it is inevitable that you will make a sinful choice, maybe not. That clearly doesn't mean you didn't have a choice.
>>4195072God doesn't want people to do bad things. The bad things that happen to people are almost always as a consequence of the sins that they or their fathers commit. Just because God knows what is going to happen doesn't necessarily mean that He makes it happen.
>>4200110>>4200115If it's inevitable that you'll make a sinful choice (because God knowingly and intentionally made you with the will to sin) then you never had a choice to begin with. Free will is nonsense that not even the bible actually supports. Quite on the contrary, in fact. Paul says you're either a slave of sin or a slave of righteousness in Romans 6:15-23, and that only if God decides to grace you with control you become free from the former and obedient to the latter. No matter how an apologist tries to twist it, when all is said and done God is the author of each individual's life.
>>4198290>Are you Orthodox?Yes, have only recently been going to church but so far I've found some really nice people, I'd suggest you to look for an Orthodox church near you and try going to a mass.
>>4177129Good video Anon. Does anybody know the track?
>>4200059>>4200088Samefag also I'm not orthodox
>>4200652Or "right" "alt-right" "conservative" for that matter
>>4200657You haven't escaped the right-wing internet subculture just because you're not on board with Richard Spencer.
>>4200673Projection. I'm not right at all. Your ignorance is shown either through projection, or trying to conflate ancient wisdom with the passing fancies of "politically inclined" rabble who have only existed in a tiny bubble of time. You hold this internet with higher regard than it deserves. I bet you believe in sociological studies as well.
>>4199922>>4199953You sound like a needy little bitch
>>4177129Actually pretty awesome
>>4199922This is the faggiest thing I've read in this site today.
>>4200141Certainly we should do our best to bring our will into union with God's will as much as possible. The idea is that humans rebel against God of our own free will. It is probably inevitable that someone will make a prideful and rebellious choice in their life. God didn't make us with the will to sin, He simply chose to create humans with free will. If we are to believe the Bible, in the beginning, humans were innocent of the knowledge of what was good, and what was evil. This perfect existence needed to be regulated by one rule: don't seize the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall surely die. The humans in the garden were innocent of knowing what was right and wrong besides the one rule they needed to keep, certainly a better circumstance than where we are now, almost every choice we make has a moral slant to it.But we put ourselves here, God made us with the free will to make choices without requiring His input. But once we knew what was right or wrong, it became nearly impossible to live a perfect life. Not God's fault, mind, but our own.
>>4200059They're more traditional than anything America has, why would you scorn someone who desires tradition immensely and wishes to immerse themselves in one?
>>4200088It's quite a leap to label someone as alt-right because of a religious opinion, you sound a bit like a woman who is excited to call someone a name that she imagines has evil connotations.
>>4176192ITT: Graven Images & Idolatry
>>4182669That webm has not only a demonic vibe to it but a very Gnostic theme, what did the author try to convey? That all of Christianity is a lie, that it was the invention of the Demiurge, that the absolute One weeps for all this?
>>4200617Google "Medieval II: Total War | Main Menu Background"
>>4201645>God didn't make us with the will to sin, He simply chose to create humans with free willYou're either extremely dumb or extremely disingenuous.
>>4201650Tradition for tradition's sake is worthless. Without understanding of what makes a tradition true and reliable they do nothing but follow a fad. Worse yet, Christianity is an alien, deceptive creed built upon falsehoods, which leads man astray from his roots. Its traditions have no solid foundation, they are crumbling with passing of this age like sand castles against the tide.
>>4201705Ark of the Covenant had cherubim on itPlease leave Prot
>>4201656The irony of this post is hilarious.
Practicing Catholic here. My best friend is orthodox and he still hasnt been able to christ-pill me. Mostly because I 100% disagree with him on the point of trinitarianism. There were a few other points like what exactly Jesus's death and rebirth meant, and some of the church practices i wasnt on board with, but whatever.To an outsider who believes in the one true god and the lord jesus christ, what am I missing out on in your eyes? Also fuck russia... Just wanted to get that out of the way real fast.
>>4201705I smell a dirty stinking protestant
>>4200141I don't buy this. I read Romans 6:15-23 as a binary choice spurred on by enlightenment. God offers the gifts through righteousness, but one must choose that path. At the end of the day, though it is the choice between 1 path or the other, its a choice. and the ability to choose I feel is a part of the grand design. The way I imagine it is a long dark path, and most people dont have a lantern to guide the way. So must continue forward. But then a kind person provides you a small candle which you then foster into a bright torch, and when you look at the path in front of you again, you see there is another way to go.Its not a great analogy, but its how I think about what exactly faith does to a person.
>>4203223You don't buy it because you were taught a contradictory interpretation of those verses. A person is only righteous if God wishes them to be and graces them with righteousness. That's why they can't boast, because it's never their own work but a behavior God instills in them. Can a person suddenly choose to have faith in something they don't actually belief in? That'd make a person's nature random, but the bible doesn't present a random universe. It says we live in a universe designed by an all-knowing creator, who knows the future of every living being since before they're born. Free will is nonsensical rhetorical device to convince people that they're ultimately responsible for their actions. But God is the only being that's really free, everything else merely acts according to His will.
transcript of actual demonic possessionhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_xdxxjIhXo
>>4203031Ark of the Covenant's design was specifically given by God. Either way, it's an angel not a woman, no matter how honoured.
>>4203213>Mostly because I 100% disagree with him on the point of trinitarianismI'm confused. Is this just an argument over filioque or are you denying the Trinity?
>>4202767>Worse yet, Christianity is an alien, deceptive creed built upon falsehoods, which leads man astray from his roots. Its traditions have no solid foundation, they are crumbling with passing of this age like sand castles against the tide.Christianity is very straightforward. You sound like a retarded pagan larper.
>>4203970Christianity is anything but straightforward. It's a cosmopolitan ideology that infects nations and subverts local cultures into parodies of their former selves. As such, it was the first successful attempt at a one world religion, one of the pillars of the NWO. It displaced genuine, native spirituality as the original globohomo project, an ideology enabled by pandering to the lower classes through empty promises of equality and driven by handouts (i.e. charity) in exchange for their brand loyalty. The leftist circus you see today is nothing more than its logical conclusion. Sadly, your intellect has been dwindled by the Christian mind disease, making you unable to understand how one thing leads to another.
>>4204319I have always been saying that communism and pretty much all major ideologies and ideals to this day are just christianity in disguise. Even atheists follow the same christian moralism. All these people are effectively christian, they have the exact same slavish/passive agressive mindset and mental health complications. If you watch how SJW and similar types attack foreign entertainment industry products and try to censor them you realise that's what christians have done since forever. They can't get themselves to leave people alone no matter how close or faraway they are. Christians and their offspring are extreme hypochondriacs. They can't deal with everything not being the same, predictable and expected. They can't let anyone just be.
>>4181299Bro if you're already friends with her brother thats a good thing.
>>4203031no one prayed to the cherubim on the ark
>>4204621Two millennia of breeding sheep, my friend.
>>4204621yeah good point, most people are really open to new unfamiliar things, only christians strive for familiarity and control
>>4203217I'm not an edgy pagan pedophile pretending to be a Christian, nor am i a Russian pagan pedophile pretending to be Christian, idolatator.
I have a question about the bible. Do you interpret the Bible and it's verses literally or do you think a lot of it is symbolic? Last night I was listening Jordan Peterson's latest podcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b8kprIQ-yo) where he was talking about Christianity and Islam with a Muslim guest and at one point he said you could interpret the Tower of Babel either literally or symbolically, with the symbolic representation being it was a society which believed it had reached perfection which ended up collapsing with all of the people splitting off and changing their languages.
>>4196416What do the Orthodox believe about hell? Do they believe similarly to Jehova's Witnesses that the punishment for sin is permanent death?
>>4204319>It displaced genuine, native spiritualityAh yes, because a bunch of superstitious beliefs entrenched as tradition is true spirituality. The Peloponnesian War disillusioned Greeks over religion 450 years before any Jews came proselytising there.>as the original globohomo project, an ideology enabled by pandering to the lower classes through empty promises of equality and driven by handouts (i.e. charity) in exchange for their brand loyalty.That simply painted early Christians in a good light. You seem to be taking things in reverse. Christians did not do good deeds to get more followers, they did good deeds because they were Christians.>The leftist circus you see today is nothing more than its logical conclusionThe leftist circus of today is the logical conclusion of what happens when you reject a Christian foundation that most European nations and colonies have been built upon for over a thousand years.
>MUH TRADITIONI'm literally the only man itt with a wife and child lmao
>>4205567>Ah yes, because a bunch of superstitious beliefs entrenched as tradition is true spirituality.There's always a divide between esoteric spirituality of the elite and exotic spirituality of the common man. Guess what? Praying to saints and holy water blessings are just a bunch of superstitions.>Christians did not do good deeds to get more followers, they did good deeds because they were Christians.Liberals don't donate to the NAACP to get democratic votes, they think it's a good deed to their fellow man. Doesn't make it not a perfect be se appeal to the lowest common denominator.>European nations and colonies have been built upon for over a thousand years.Europe a wasn't even fully christianized a thousand years ago. All your epic crusaders and explorerers were just the natural inclinations of the white man. Jesus didn't invent the gothic arch or put us to the moon, the inherent abilities of the white man did.
>>4205621>Europe a wasn't even fully christianized a thousand years ago.The parts that weren't full of uncivilised mudhut savages were. I never said all of Europe specifically because I'm aware of such things.>All your epic crusaders and explorerers were just the natural inclinations of the white man. Jesus didn't invent the gothic arch or put us to the moon,Completely irrelevant.>the inherent abilities of the white man did.So you worship colour. Surely /pol/ is more your speed.
>>4205630>european were just savage animals until the bibleOh thanks, Rabbi.
>>4205634Retards on /v/ go for the strawman less than you.
>>4205638>uncivilised mudhut savagesYour words m8. I can only assume the implications being YHWH saved the animal goyim from himself.
>>4181299>I don't think she likes meIts over. Women dont like sub8 men. Take the blackpill
>>4205645My words were for northern Europe. Not all of Europe.
>>4205666So...the point still stands...
>>4186166People think the crusades were a religious matter but when in reality it was just a political move. Urban knew the Byzantines were weakened and he wanted to expand latin Catholicism to the east thus expanding the influence of Roman power, while the nobles wanted the east's wealth.The "saving the Christians of the east" thing was just the bullshit they passed to the peasants.
>>4205567>Ah yes, because a bunch of superstitious beliefs entrenched as tradition is true spirituality.
>>4205630>So you worship colour. Surely /pol/ is more your speed.You have to go back
>>4205822Who is this caveman?
>>4205830Catholic propagandist E Michael Jones
>>4205822>noooo you can't can't worship a good creation of God that's not "high culture". "High culture" is what I say it is. You have to worship a man made idol. Now that's high culture.Christianity was created by jews in order to control non jews and fulfil their prophecies. The christian chopping down of trees sacred among the Norsemen, and the muslim chopping down of the trees sacred among the Iranians are all the fulfillment of their "tikkun olam" prophecy. The destruction of christians and the erasure of christianity and islam also part of it. They used christians for their cause (which is destroying Western and Eastern values) and when they were of no use to them they threw them to the garbage.
>>4176269Cheers anon, may we all be there someday :)
>>4205941This is the dumbest possible take, how do people like you even figure out how to use the internet?
>>4205941You got it backwards, Christianity was a Roman project to pacify the Jews. It subverts every messianic expectation of 1st century Jews in favor of Roman rule: Here's your messiah on a stick, he's not a warrior but brought a sword to divide and conquer you, told you to turn the other cheek to authorities, and to pay your fucking taxes. Ever noticed how the OT constantly emphasizes that you should not eat the flesh from a living animal and drink its blood? Now you'll eat the flesh and drink the blood of our sacrificial lamb, who's the Yom Kippur sacrifice and the new temple that we destroyed all in one. You can point at basically anything in the NT and see it for yourself. When Jesus claims that the random centurion is more pious than anyone he met in Israel he's completely demoralizing the Jews, when Paul says there's neither Jew nor Greek he's obliterating their notion of chosen people, and so on.
>>4205634does it bother you speaking badly about yourself to try to fool christians on an iranian adobe hut building forum herschel? or do you hate yourself deep down as well?
>>4177123I do not know what those are. I want someone to tell me what they are.
>>4206636>Christianity was a Roman project to pacify the JewsIf it was a Roman project they wouldn't have proceeded to try and wipe them out over the next 300 years.>told you to turn the other cheek to authoritiesThat's got to do with a specific ancient cultural practice and Jesus was basically advocating non-violent solutions to problems that still ended up with you on top. In the given example of turning the other cheek, the end result is the humiliation of the one who hit you. Jesus was not pushing for masochism.
>>4205959no I agree
>>4206981Catholics who got angry at all the modernisation in the church after Vatican II and broke off. They believe that because the second Vatican council was so bogus that the Pope lost his legitimacy and do not recognise any Pope from the past 60 years.
Here's early russian polyphony from 16th-17th century for youhttps://youtu.be/WsF1ncGAQHo
>>4207187>If it was a Roman project they wouldn't have proceeded to try and wipe them out over the next 300 years>Rome had the same management for 300 yearsChristian persecution by the Roman government was largely overblown by later writers and conflated with intra-mural hostilities between them and the rebellious Jews. The Romans had little to no reason to wipe Christians out, which is further evidenced by the fact that there were scarcely any persecutions in the Christianity's first century of existence. Had they wished to do so, the fledgling religion would've died before the 2nd century even started.>That's got to do with a specific ancient cultural practice and Jesus was basically advocating non-violent solutions to problems that still ended up with you on top. In the given example of turning the other cheek, the end result is the humiliation of the one who hit you.Kek, that's literally one guy trying way to hard to reinterpret the verse. Do you think the Romans gave a fuck if someone turned the other cheek?>Oh my Jupiter, is he PEACEFULLY protesting?! What are we going to do now, Augustus? M-Maybe turn his head and hit him again on the same side? Why are these Jews so hard to rule? We just want them to shut the fuck up and pay their fucking taxes.Was "Render unto Caesar" supposed to humiliate them too by making Christians law-abiding citizens of the empire?The people causing problems to the Romans back then were the Zealots and other radicalized nationalist Jews who refused to submit to the government, not the Christians, who were their polar opposite in nearly everything. Read Romans 13 then come back here and tell me if that's the kind of people you'd have trouble with as a secular authority in charge of keeping the order.
>>4177123Everyone who believes in Jesus is a Christian.
>>4176192you worship an image of a faggot with long hair who isn't even jesus. 1 Corinthians 11:14, KJV: "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"
Does anyone have that webm of metromen with orthodoxy, catholics and protestants?
>>4183417Why post just half of it?
The Earth is actually flat, I guess I need to finally read the bible. was orthodoxy corrupted by copernican heresy?
>>4207453>Do you think the Romans gave a fuck if someone turned the other cheek?I never said it was a Roman custom. Of the three examples Jesus gives (cloak, cheek, mile) the one about going the extra mile was the Roman one in nature and is the only one that is selfless without any trickery involved.
>>4207455Is the Devil a Christian then?
>>4207889I didn't say it was a Roman custom either, I'm saying they were the authorities and as such the people in positions of power. The interpretation that it was a gesture to challenge them is pointless, because no one would care about something so insignificant. The principles Jesus and other New Testament figures consistently teach is submission to the governing bodies, those principles being diametrically opposite to those upheld by the Zealots rebelling against Rome.
>>4207891you think the devil believes in jesus?
>>4203204I don't get it.
>>4206636>christianity was actually a psyop>persecution of christians was a false flagyou really need medication
>>4207891I mean... sort of...like if you asked him what his religious beliefs are, and he answered honestly...
>>4205567>Ah yes, because a bunch of superstitious beliefs entrenched as tradition is true spirituality. The Peloponnesian War disillusioned Greeks over religion 450 years before any Jews came proselytising there.Here we go with the "my spirituality is superior to yours" argument again, like a supernatural No True Scotsman. You can't objectively rate spirituality. You're playing right into admitting that Christianity is the only TRUE spirituality by virtue of its commoditization.
>>4208527Should add that if you really believe spirituality is determined by the sword, that Islam is going to outnumber you very soon, if not already.
>>4208518Christianity isn't any elaborate psyop, it's merely co-opted Second Temple Judaism. As for the persecution of Christians, that's something even mainstream scholars acknowledge. From Nero's reign until Decius's widespread measures in 250, Christian persecution was isolated and localized.
>>4206636Rome was not going to waste their time creating a fake religion in an unprecedented 1st century psyop to pacify a region by getting the guy running it to be killed and publically humiliated and for his followers to proceed to convert more non-Jews than Jews. This is especially true considering that 40 years after the Crucifixion they burned down Jerusalem and 60 years after that they destroyed the entire region. The Romans, or any governing body in the same situation, would not desire a long-con since the time for fruition would be too long and they want peace and stability now.
>>4208439The Devil doesn't simply believe, he knows and has seen that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and came down to earth to die for the redemption of all man's sin, was resurrected and ascended to Heaven and all the other stuff too. Muslims believe in Jesus too, albeit a very incorrect belief, as do Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. The point is that "believing" is not enough unless it's a deathbed conversion and that's all you can do before you die. Christians are followers of Christ and that requires acting like Jesus to the best of our ability.
>>4208527That wasn't what my arguement was about at all you mong. He claimed Christianity displaced genuine pagan spirituality, but we can see that the Greeks had lost that "genuine" spiriuality when fighting amongst themselves hundreds of years prior. That war did disillusion them, since they all became acutely aware that all of their religious transgressions during the war would go unpunished by the gods they previously believed would strike them down straight away for such behaviour.
>>4208774But a fake religion is exactly what Christianity is. You don't have to take my word for it, just read the Old Testament and then the Gospels to see how the latter are a shameless patchwork of the former and its motifs. This is known academically as biblical typology, something that Christians naively interpret as the Old Testament "prefiguring" Jesus.>unprecedentedNot really. The creation of Christianity is analagous to what Cyrus did to Judaism after he brought the Jews back to Jerusalem and rebuilt their temple.>getting the guy running it to be killed and publically humiliatedExcept they didn't. The gospel narratives explicitly show the Jews as the ones who got Jesus killed. Rome, represented by Pontius Pilate, washes his hands of Jesus's blood, which stains the Jews and their children. Consequently, their messianic expectations are thoroughly subverted, and they condemn themselves by rejecting the new Messiah, one who submitted himself to Rome.The more you read the bible the more obvious the goal of Christianity becomes: To overthrow the Pharisees (simbolized by the parting of the veil which covered the Holy of Holies) and co-opt Second Temple Judaism, reshaping it into a religion compatible with external (Roman) rule.
>>4208830>Except they didn't. The gospel narratives explicitly show the Jews as the ones who got Jesus killedPilate washed his hands of the guilt of condemning a man he believed innocent to death, but it was still Roman soldiers that beat him, whipped him and crucified him. It was a Roman death sentence carried out by Romans under Roman law. The Jews would have simply stoned Jesus. This is beside the point though. My point is that if Jesus was an agent of the Roman government to pacify the Jews he wouldn't have walked around the land preaching this message for 3 years only to be crucified. Nobody goes undercover like that and stays covert to the bitter end when he discovers that his own government has to torture and main him for the faint hope of his disciples carrying on his works after his death.
>>4208871I never said Jesus was an agent of the Roman government* though. A historical Jesus would've either preached things different from what we find in the gospels, justifying the decision by the Roman government to execute him as am enemy of the state, or preached the same things and not have been crucified by them at all. Perhaps we'll never know who he really was, but the first alternative seems far more likely than the second, since hijacking an emerging cult of personality would've been substantially easier than inventing it from scratch.*Paul, on the other hand, was 100% on Roman payroll.
>>4208887Paul preached and converted primarily gentiles, which would be pointless as a Roman agent attempting to pacify the Jews, especially when he pushes for Christians to stop circumcising and criticises the Judaisers diluting Christ's message. Roman records from that century document Christ's death, so already one of your potential alternatives are bust. Your alternatives are nothing more than that. Alternatives that paint the past through a modern lens in a desperate attempt to dismiss Christianity by any means. You should think about spending more of your time on /his/ than /wsg/.
>>4191359Bolshevik hierarchy was top-heavy with atheist ethnic jews, and it was these jews who ordered killings of clergymen and destruction or confiscation of church property in the 1920s and 30s in Russia, not to mention the 30million+ Christian peasants that were killed either on their orders or due to their policies, and the Russian cultural, intellectual, social, and religious leaders who were also killed. If you want to blame anyone for that, blame the Bolshevik kikes who created the Soviet state.
>>4208891>Paul preached and converted primarily gentilesAccording to whom? The only sources on his life are Luke and, you guessed it, Paul himself. If we're taking Luke and Paul's words for it then you should know by now that he:>Was a Roman citizen;>Went under the protection of a high-ranking Roman officer such as Claudius Lysias, who commanded hundreds of men to escort him to Caesarea;>Magically escaped from Roman prison, attributed to a sudden earthquake that fred him and Silas (another Roman citizen) from their shackles;>Literally had contacts inside the imperial household.Despite claims of conflict with the Romans and even, later on, of martyrdom, Roman law never actually convicts Paul of anything. He is arrested only once in Philippi because he cast a fortune-telling spirit out of a slave, which caused her masters to lose their source of profit. The imprisonment only lasted a day and the magistrates released them saying, “Now then, come out, and go in peace” (Acts 16:36). He's taken into protective custody by the Romans, without which it he would have been lynched by Jewish mob because of Jewish (not Roman) accusations. Last, but not least, Luke conveniently stops writing about him while he's awaiting trial, meaning there's not even an (alleged) first-hand source to serve as argument for his execution. It's simply impossible to ignore how everything related in Acts and the Pauline Epistles points to him being in cahoots with the Roman goverment.>especially when he pushes for Christians to stop circumcising and criticises the JudaisersDo you really don't realize what that entails? Paul was sabotaging Second Temple Judaism from within, that's the whole point of preaching against Torah orthodoxy and the reason why the Jews wanted his head, anon. You're only supporting what I'm saying by stressing that.>You should think about spending more of your time on /his/ than /wsg/I do. That board is less about history than you think it is.
>>4208991Also>Roman records from that century document Christ's deathThere are no Roman records of Jesus's crucifixion dating to the 1st century. The earliest source is Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews which was adulterated by Christians and it's hardly a "Roman record."
>>4177123what the fuck is that denomination, from what heresy did you spawn out of? protestantism was a mistake, along with catholicism.
this thread is very sinfulall you faggots repent and fix this thread
>>4191502Egomia of the epitaph sung during the Great Friday. This is the 1st Egomion or Stasis one or "I zoi en tafo" (The Life inside the grave) as people usually call it because of its first line. A lament for the Crucifixion of Christ.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY3OzPW4mQM
>>4196417Where can I read more about this mystical union of the masculine and feminine? I don't support witchcraft, but what you just said oddly reminds me of the atrocity that is transgenderism
>>4199805>>4196766Same principles of harmony and melody since nu-metal is essentially a fusion genre.
>>4203969This is an argument over Filioquo, yes. The trinity is not in question other than this particular sticking point, as I feel to assert that Jesus could not be a source of the holy spirit discounts his divinity as god, and also the son of the father.
>>4207891Uh... Thats a real good question. I guess that depends on if you actually buy into an entity that is "the devil" and dont just read that as a metaphor for sin and the naturally corruptive spirit of the world...Ill pass... I havent read enough theology to be versed enough in the canonical nature of the devil
>>4210273Weeabooism is Satanic
>>4211594don't be a half-assed christian, almost everything in the bible is literal. 90% of the time interpretation is required is because of the language differences in translation.
>>4212980Thats fair. I put more stock in the living text portion of reading the bible and not as much into the literalized meaning, because im a big believer in death of the author. In this case, meaning the literal meaning of the text is meaningless because God's word only becomes Actionable and realized through the act of reading and listening to the word. So the word of god is the meaning you derive from the text with the obvious caveat that the words on the page are the literal word of God and there for should be read explicitly. That part Im not super great at.
>>4210273Catholicism changed several times while the orthodoxy stayed loyal.Even if it is fake which it isn't, it STILL holds more claims to Christ than the catholic or Lutheran church.
>>4183411What a stupid generalization.
>>4176192no one in this thread actually believes in G-d, all of this is all a political movement
>>4183411A soviet monument full of communist symbols it's hard to be built in the US yes
>>4215005Christ belongs to no-one. Only those who accept Christ as their lord and savior belong to Him. And orthodoxy has changed many times over the years. Many.
>>4204824And what am I supposed to do with that.
>>4216745nice reddit meme
>>4201705Uh oh, looks like someone doesn't know what icons are. We have physically seen Christ, it is in no way shape or form a graven image. We also don't pray to them like you think, we see icons as a window into heaven, so we are praying to Christ rather than the image OF Christ.
>>4182669Be gone, demon. In the name of our LORD I banish all demons from our thread and the good participants in it.
>>4177514What the actual fuck am I looking at?
>>4216745God shouldn't have made me autistic
>>4205471>>4205510No one answered my questions, but here is a picture of my local church. It is Presbyterian so most people here will probably hate it.