Warcraft 3 is all-around superior to Starcraft. In fact, it's superior in every single way. Yes, it features superior micro too. I'm prepared to refute every argument you can come up with as I have 20 years of experience in both games, but for starters, I'll leave you with this:Starcraft is an economic game. Warcraft 3 is a game about war.
>>915451The reason korean gooks picked starcraft over warcraft 3 is very simple:Starcraft has flat damage values. Warcraft has a range of damage values.So for example (bear with me I haven't played these games in years so numbers are all wrong):>Marine hits for 24>This means that every time marine shoots he does 24 damage, guaranteed>There may be armor bonuses against it but still in general you'll know exactly how much damage your unit will do vs another with 0 variation, leading to autistic micro being rewardedMeanwhile warcraft:>Footman does 12-20 damage>This means that, if you are unlucky, you can get 5 hits of 12, which is 60 damage>Or you can get 5 hits of 20, which is 100 damage>A huge RNG difference that throws off autistic asians who are used to doing complex math in their headsThat's literally the only reason Starcraft became an E-sport over Warcraft. The only one.
>>915456You're not entirely correct. Gooks rejected Starcraft 2 either. Besides that, Starcraft has WAY, WAY more randomness than Wc3. Both on a strategic and tactical levels. On a tactical level: random unit bypass, random pathfinding glitching, random SCV movement during construction which might or might not render it immune to damage, random reaver attacks, inconsistent, unpredictable abilities like the Abriter, numerous bugs and exploitsOn a strategic level: lots of strategies in Starcraft are branded as "all-ins" or "cheese" or "gambits" because they give you insane amount of temporary advantage but aren't guaranteed to work and require certain conditions to work out, but they're almsot necessary to win at a high level, meaning that Starcraft is ultimately a gambling game. Warcraft 3, by comparison, has almost no "cheese". None whatsoever at a pro level. It's impossible to win but by skill alone.
>>915460>Warcraft 3, by comparison, has almost no "cheese"Are you fucking serious with this shi->None whatsoever at a pro level.Oh, nevermind.
>>915460>It's impossible to win but by skill alonemfw Warcraft 3 is the chess of RTS
Blizzard removed WC3 from existence so your point is moot
>>915460So the real reason Brood War was big in Worst Korea was because of the spectacle? It's similar to how Hearthstone took off as a digital card game in general and in the context of streaming and tournaments is the only major one.
That's true, WC3 is better and did not deserve the demake treatment.
>>915451100% truet. Enjoyer of both
>>915534Honestly, I have no idea, nor do I really care how gooks fill up their free time. Starcraft 2 never took root even though its effectively the same game, the irony is that Brood War was ultimately dethroned in popularity by LoL, which was a Dota knockoff, which itself was just a rappy Warcraft 3 mode that removed the strategic elements and boiled the game down to a singular element - hero development.
>>915451it's not as balanced as starcraftbut i had way more fun playing warcraft 3 as a kid so i don't know
>>915554Starcraft 2 was decently popular during wings of Liberty, wasnt on 1's level but it was still getting good views and coverage.Then Heart of the Swarm happened and killed that game fucking execution style.
>>915456in starcraft all ranged units have a chance to miss and an additional higher chance to miss against units that are under some doodadsalso your baseless assertion is retarded and gay and I fucked you're waifu
>>915566starfag here: not really, WC3 is the more balanced game and just about always has been, whether we're talking about interfactional balance or intrafactional balance>>915451>>915456this is such copeBW peaked well after WC3's release because for most of its history WC3 was a fucking bore to watch and a chore to playat high level everything hinged on heroes, being at Level 5.5 when your enemy is at 6 was generally an insurmountable disadvantage that raised the worst MOBAs to exemplary status. then there was the lack of lethality - nothing got done if nobody tripped into a surround, and I haven't even gotten into the extremely long patch drought where every decent player started with the same hero and hardly deviated for the followups. without tavern some races were screwed, and Blizzard never even attempted to reclaim their own ladder map archetypes even though they were happy to change everything else when they started patching again in the years before destroying the game. and during this patch drought there were basically only 3 armiesoh yeah, and enjoy your various mario party mechanics and multitask-deleting base automation in a game that purports to be more skill-based than its spiritual predecessor wasthis is not to say that WC3 isn't a better game and a better product on the whole, just it couldn't ever have been what starcraft was and one shouldn't pretend it was a straight upgrade, especially now that it's been rendered flat-out inferior
starcraft 2 has never been good competitivelystarcraft 2 is still the only rts game that ive actually had interest in competitively, its just fun to watch every now and then when you dont know the meta and dont care
>>915571>Then Heart of the Swarm happened and killed that game fucking execution style.I don't see how, what did it really change in comparison with going from Starcraft 1->2 which would have been a bigger shake up. It's really just that LoL just exploded in popularity at that time since that's around the time the Korean server was released.
>>915581and now that i think about it, and to elaborate further, overall i enjoy playing other rts games more but sc2 is the only rts that keeps me coming back and interested as a spectatordont care if the balance is trash or whatever, something about the speed of the combat, the animations, the way units die, scale of it all, and just the graphics all around make it fun to watch every now and then maybe for a few weeks until you get bored of seeing the same episodes of the patch, and spectating is always a way to make me reinstallno other rts really has this charm for me. AOE is much more comfy but just doesn't feel right for watching competition, same with warcraft 3. even the most impressive micro of bowmen around some catapult rocks, or perfect army surrounds catching their hero off guard grinding mobs in the forest as they tp back to base just doesnt do it for me the same way watching some basic drop ship harass you see in every match of sc2
>>915579>at high level everything hinged on heroes, being at Level 5.5 when your enemy is at 6 was generally an insurmountable disadvantage Bold claim. Disregarding the fact that 80% of games never get to lvl 6, out of 24 heroes present in the game, maybe 10 haves ultimates that aren't useless. For example, literally all orc heroes have meaningless lvl 6 spells that do nothing of value. All channelling spells are crap period. This is a stark difference from MOBAs where the success depends on how well you nuke your enemies with a big boom thing.>the lack of lethality - nothing got done if nobody tripped into a surroundFunny you say that considering the endless whining in the days of yore how Demon Hunter could solo an entire army, how Blade Master could one shot units with a single crit strike, or how coilnova instagibbed everything, including int-based heroes. Still, it's only a sensible thing to beef up the units in a game where your army is not expected to exceed 24 dudes as opposed to potential hundreds in Stracraft.>oh yeah, and enjoy your various mario party mechanics and multitask-deleting base automation isn't "mario party mechanics" exactly what happens in SC? Build 15 production buildings. Build 500 workers. Send them to mine, personally, because Blizzard was yet to discover how rally points should work. Click on each barrack, separately, to order new pack of fresh meat to waste, do it every 15 seconds or you lose. Build 20 supply depots. It's just tiresome busywork. Comparatively, the actual combat in SC features both players attack-moving and hoping for the best, maybe shitting up a few abilities here and there. As someone who started with WC3, Starcrafts combat always depressed me. It's too simplistic, and too fast to be anything but simplistic. Even at a pro level. The battles of WC3 expect you to micromanage every single unit with utmost care, in Starcraft large scale battles are decided entirely by whose murderblob is bigger.
>>915451>*Solves WC3*Seriously though who the fuck can stop this Russian autist?
So what's the issue with StarCraft 2? Why didn't it catch on like SC1?
>>915661Like a decade long dry spell killed interest in competitive RTS for many and then SC2 alone wasn't enough to resurrect it.
>>915589>out of 24 heroes present in the gamestop bullshitting, through the game's peak nothing had a hope of reaching 6 except the four default first heroes and the rare fast taverner, the meta was actually that solved. my point stands>sensible to scale one element down to compensate for another element getting scaled downyes, but I'm saying the end effect of this is a game that is too different in flow from starcraft to be readily compared as in the original post>mario party mechanics = macrook so you haven't played mario party, fair. i'm talking about the random damage spread and item tables that have more potential in a progressed meta to dilute skill difference than reward adaptation as you seem to believe is its primary effectalso you can hotkey buildings in starcraft, there's a lot more to assaults than attack-moving and shitting up abilities, and if automation is the advantage you seem to think it is then Relic RTS must blow your mind with how far ahead it was of WC3 in 2004>>915661it did, just they kept changing it for the sake of changing it instead of building towards something like BW and its mapper illuminati always hadnow support has ended abruptly and at a bad time and there's nothing left to do but see if the game can maintain its lead over BW without constant defibrillationkeep in mind it took six years after its final balance patch for BW to reach its global peak. it's way too early to draw the curtain on SC2
>>915451I almost 100% agree with you.However; StarCraft's sprites and frequent usage of FMVs, are better for the grim space war between the redneck marine corp, all consuming swarm, and the mysterious alien assholes, that SC1 depicts, than WC3's boxy models and mostly ingame cutscenes.
been watching broodwar games all day, now watching sc2 competition live.get fucked, chuds
>>915451Also don't forget the units don't die like flies in WCIII.
>>918409That's kinda what makes it boring for me, as a spectator. Every unit lives for ages. It takes an entire army like 40 seconds of dedicated micro to kill a grunt and half the time the surround doesn't work and he gets away. WC3 has nothing like a good spider mine or seige tank blowout. Armies in brood war can hang on a knife's edge.
Starcraft series has better story, and always has ever since that abortion that is WoW started fucking up the story line and killing so many W3 characters. Warcraft 3 is more fun to play though.
>>918600Frozen Throne felt pretty rushed in the story department, especially with Kael'Thas. But I feel Reign of Chaos beats out Starcraft.
>>918606True, but i think they did that because they knew they had plans for him in WoW. Even if those plans were to eventually kill him.I dont know if ill be able to play W4 whenever it comes out with all the stuff thats been "developed" story wise in the last 16 years.
>>918600Sc2 has terrific campaign design but the story might be the worst thing blizzard has ever written. With Legacy of the Void in particular being a game industry nadir.
>>915451Warcraft 3 just sucks. Heroes are too overpowered, so the entire game is about bulking them up and not losing heroes so that you don't feed the enemy. Warcraft 3 custom maps suffered from this exact same issue, where some random retard feeds a shitload of units to an enemy, they get this ungodly superman of a hero and then wipe everything in the game without even trying. If I recall, WC3 also has very little flexibility, so every game plays out in largely the same way, with the same heroes, same unit compositions and samey game progression. The only way I can think to compare Brood War to WC3 is ZvZ, the entire game is determined by losing a few units which is utterly boring.
>>918611Realistically, if wc4 ever comes out they'll do a setting reset or AU that ignores wow. Modern wow is so high concept that it's meaningless and incredibly unpopular. No one is passionate about where the setting went.
>>918591I prefer this over SC.>Marines have power armor which should make them durable enough to survive the situation>3 Zergling hits, 2 Zealot hits and the unit explodes into ludicrous gibs>Footman has full armor>Will survive long enough for the Paladin to Holy Light him after 9 hits from a Orc Grunt
>>918632Oh and I forgot, but the existence of the Scroll of Town Portal is one of the most idiotic, boring, thrill-killing mechanics of any game ever. Flanked an opponent? Haha lmao, doesn't matter, I tp away. It turns an already sloggish game into an absolute grind. God I despise WC3 ladder, what an utter shitpile. I'm getting angry as I remember more about it, WC3 would have been forgotten after a few years if it wasn't for the custom maps.
>>918648I agree but without town scroll games would end in like 4 minutes. Is this an improvement? I don't know.
Dota has unironically a million times the strategic depths of any RTS
>>918641Their armour is actually represented by them taking more than one hit to kill. Civilians/Technicians in the SC1 campaign usually die to one burst/slash/stab. Don't civilians take 3-4 hits in WC3?
>>918627Ill admit that yes, the whole damsel in distress thing they did to Kerrigan was awfully cringe in LOTV, but on the whole, i still think the SC universe has a better story to tell than the Warcraft one, unless they take WoW out of current canon.
>>918634God i hope so. In 2020 i worked with a guy who was super into WoW and i was amazed at all the stuff he told me had changed since W3 and FT. Kael dead, Arthas dead, everything ive read about Sylvanas recently makes it seem like people despise her.
>>918687wait, were was everyone not always supposed to hate sylvanas? i never touched WoW but she spends literally all of both WC3 and TFT deliberately written as the single most contemptible bitch in the storya story with fucking maiev in it
the only actualy reason for sc being the thing in korea was the time being: internet became widely available with "acceptable" speed. thats all there is to it. warcraft 2 was on pair with sc, warcraft 3 is of course much deeper.
>>918641The lethality isn't as absurd on normal speed. I don't think blizzard could have foreseen how fast and efficiently brood war is played today. The level of control good players have over their zerglings is fucking absurd and makes them some of the most damaging units in the game. I doubt that was intentional.
>>918701Sylvanas had her fans since she's an anti-hero with a tragic past. She was never framed as a "good guy" but people sympathized and sometimes rooted for her. Recently Blizzard has taken a really bizarre course with her character where she oscillates between genocidal, war crime committing psychopath maniac and justified renegade who has the eye for the bigger picture. Players aren't buying the weird love the writing team has for her and want her to be treated sensibly by the universe and other characters but they continue to minimize her atrocities and justify her current actions. Of all the characters that are gonna get a redemption arc she probably deserves it the least yet that seems to be where things are headed. She's just the best example of blizzard's current writing quality, in the fucking dumps.
>>918715You're right about the reason brood war became popular but >warcraft 2 was on pair with sclmao, c'mon man
>>918641I prefer it in SC, even in canon the starcraft weapons are incredibly lethalyou can punch holes in starship hulls with sidearms, why would 7 bursts from a gauss rifle seem like too little to kill a single guy?
>>918739OG confederate terran were so bleak and cool. The suit is basically a mini-prison for brainwashed felons sealed into and sent into the grinder. Your lifespan is measured in minutes once you hit the battlefield and they stamp a fucking barcode on your head for recordkeeping. Brutal.
>>918701wow sylvanas is written as a cuntbag still who only survives through plot armour and everyone having bigger moment to moment problems that stop them getting their shit together long enough to chop through her goons and kill herI'm pretty sure this is unintentional and they're just writing her as a strong Americ*n woman
I love warcraft 3, but it's a terrible competitive game because recovering from any defeat is insurmountable. If you lose an engagement, not only are you down units, but now your enemy has an EXP lead. Undead doesn't have access to slows/snares outside of heroes and a tier 3 necro spell, meanwhile night elves get slow poison on dyrads and orcs have raider nets. Scrolls of town portal making your hero invulnerable is ridiculous .
>>918732>Sylvanas had her fans since she's an anti-hero with a tragic past.No Anon, most Sylvanas fans are just coomers who see a FEMALE GIRL and go into simp overdrive
>>918715>wc2, the two-faction game where one faction is completely worthless>on par with SC, the three-faction game with such perfect balance that it is still undecided which race is the true best, which still has new metas coming out to this day despite receiving its last patch decades ago>wc3 is of course much deeper, the four-faction game that needs patching decades after release to not be a broken mess, which has no actual strategy, where the entire game is determined by poking until one player fucks up movement and losesWhat do you mean by this?
>>918853>SC>"such perfect balance that it is still undecided which race is the true best">mfw every single competitive map is derived from Lost Temple because Zerg rapes everyone for free on anything else they ever tried
>>918892Yes. The choke to main, easily wallable natural etc are features of Starcraft.inseparable from the rest of the game.
>>918958>mandatory map constraints aren't a limitation, they're a feature!>meanwhile BW teamgames have completely-stratified race combination viability and FFA is even more of a campy snorefest than in the aggression-rewarding RTS games of the futurelook, I like Starcraft 1 as much as the next koreaboo but if this game was balanced outside of community content you wouldn't have to tell people not to look at all the stock map-archetypes and standard game modes that were always well beyond savingStarcraft's vaunted interfactional balance success can be replicated in just about any strategy game with distinct factions and a mapping SDK, they just had enough money on the line to greatly accelerate the process
>>915451>everything revolves around hero units and their abilities >"Warcraft 3 is a game about war"
pro sc should be played on a full pool of all melee maps the game shipped withsince it's the most balanced game ever made this will cause no problems
Warcraft 3 looks like ass though, unlike first Starcraft (although very much like SC2).