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>*has less players than its 20 year old prequel*
What went so so wrong?
>>
Stop shilling this garbage.
>>
>>910893
200 population cap that gimps the whole purpose behind ecoing
>>
>>910893
Imbalanced for competitive play.
>>
>>910893
>shittier balance than 2
>missing basic features
>extremely slow to update
>full of bugs
It's not surprising, really.
>>
>>910893
They tried to make a game to appeal to both age2 and age3 fans who like their respective games for different things.
For every good idea AOE4 has it has 2 bad ones
>landmarks to age up
that's good
>visual design
>cringe campaigns
bad
>actual difference in how factions play
in theory, good, in practice impossible to balance. There's a reason starcraft is the only asymmetrical RTS thats popular, because it only has 3 factions, many games tried to do what starcraft did with more factions and pretty much none of them succeeded
The closest one was Dawn of War 1 & its expacs, but even there things aren't radically different between factions
>one faction dominates water, period (france)
lol
idk about AOE3 but in AOE2 there were several competitive water civs, while vikings are considered the strongest, they do have competition (spanish / portugal / japanese)
>one faction can beat anyone else with a rush (mongols)
lol, there's a reason age2 early ages take forever, and age3 added minute men button to town center to counter dumb rushes
>one faction's signature unit is pointless (england)
lol

Overall it feels like a bootleg age of empires 2, which it is because its made by another studio trying to copy the old game but just not doing a very good job.
>>
>>912368
>bootleg Aoe2
Great way to put it. It's Aoe2 without the soul. The "modern" 3d art style where everything is vaguely cartoonish is brutal.
Why is it that no AAA studio understands that RTS games are not meant to be made in janky 3d. These games arnt meant to be flashy spectacle they need to be readable.
Why do I need to zoom in and view from 360 degrees a bunch of puffy cel shaded fortnite characters? If the game was readable you only need the fixed iso perspective the way God intended.
When will we get the 3d model to 2d sprite based RTS we have been waiting for?
>>
>>910893
Why are you guys so retarded? The game only has 3 months of playerdata, and it lost a large part of it's playerbase. That's perfectly normal, a regular game loses most of it's players in the first few months, then a few months latter gains some players, then falls again. As for why it has less than AoE2, it's simply that AoE2 was a massively popular game when it came out. Such games last for long periods of time before eventually dying out.
But ultimatly all of this was pointless because Age of Empires sucks and you have normalfaggot tier opinions for shilling it on this board.
>>
>>912368
>one faction dominates water, period (france)
This isn't even true anymore.
>>
>>910893
Every video game developer on planet earth was forced to make a huge fucking deal about breaking for the holidays this year lest the Jason Schreier gestapo cancel your entire company with a hit piece. Causing Lelic to rush out the first patch to quell community complaints with launch bugs, only for the first patch to be unpolished and introduce EVEN WORSE bugs. Followed by the post-launch team being forced to conclude for the season, leaving AOE4 in an absolute fucking state full of infinite range spearman and other cancer that render it literally unplayable.

They should have honestly done 0 fucking patching until they came back from holiday break.
>>
>>912589
>introduce EVEN WORSE bugs
The worst bug in the winter patch would've been middle of the road by the standards of the bugs at launch, not even accounting for number. Unbraceable spears is nowhere near as bad as some of the bugs and exploits in at launch.

They should've waited six months to release the game, but such is life.
>>
>>912368
I have this manual for AoE3. They really made us all blueballed forever.
>>
>>912592
Hard disagree, the launch bugs were niche enough that nobody in common matches were doing them.
>>
>>912368
>in theory, good, in practice impossible to balance. There's a reason starcraft is the only asymmetrical RTS thats popular, because it only has 3 factions, many games tried to do what starcraft did with more factions and pretty much none of them succeeded
The closest one was Dawn of War 1 & its expacs, but even there things aren't radically different between factions

meanwhile aoeo......
>>
>>912592
Launch bugs didn't let you make unbreakable walls. the bugs are arguably getting worse.
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>>910924
pump
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>a vtuber has the most viewers
ded game
>>
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>>913005
God damn, that's pathetic.
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>>910893
From the perspective of someone who is a RTS lover but decided not to buy it:
-Shitty Blizzard graphics, I thought they learned the fucking lesson with DoW3
-Medieval age, weren't we supposed to get the industrial age?The period between the French Revolution and WW1 needs a RTS, so you can still have melee units but can unlock at the end of the techtree tanks and planes as wonderweapons
-Relic, just Relic, they already had a reputation of woke Blizzard fanboys, I still haven't forgotten them DoW3, also CoH2 mustache villain portrayal of the soviets, if I want gay I go watch a Mahou Shoujo show or JoJo season.

The other factor is that, despite EA's best efforts to kill the franchise, the Command and Conquer modding community has been going strong, just Mental Omega (yeah, yeah, some cartoonish graphics, but it's ok because 2001 isometric engine, although updated by the fans) is showing that you can actually have both a strong singleplayer, multiplayer, and a coherent campaign (for C&C standards), they basically made all the people who said you had to pick one look like morons, then there is Twisted Insurrection, Tiberian Essense, Generals Evolution, Corona, Remix and some others which are quite well developed or in the process of getting stable enough once I get truly tired of MO.

So no, I don't think I have any reason to buy AoE4.
>>
>>912397
starcraft 2 is the best looking 3D RTS and a great example 3D RTS should follow minus a few of the new unit designs
you can say theres too much going on with the spells and effects but thats the hand they have to work with for starcraft, and they did a great job
>>
age of empires on the surface always seemed like a shitty game to play as anything other than a comfy basebuilding campaign coop/8 player chill ffa
honest question none of the mechanics seem like something id prefer competitively over any other rts why would i learn/take interest in this game over rts designed for competition
>>
Video game popularity is irrelevant as its entirely bullshit metrics only cited by people who don't play any video games in the first place.

Age of Empires 2 was a dead game for a long time that could only be played on game ranger. You don't have any concept of whether or not the real crowd (people who play video games) give a shit about AoE4. The only thing that matters about a video game is its gameplay has an audience, not which one has a ranking.

And no, because some retard is going to think whiney strawmans work on this site, I'm not a fanboy of the game.
>>
>>913134
copium
>>
>>913135
>And no, because some retard is going to think whiney strawmans work on this site, I'm not a fanboy of the game.
>>
>>910924
fpbp
>>
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>>913045
I called it. At this point they should just make AoE Future in 2 Definitive's engine. 3D shit is too complicated and those pixel graphics are timeless.
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>>913134
>Age of Empires 2 was a dead game for a long time that could only be played on game ranger.
Bait or retard?
It was played on Voobly and getting over ten thousand views on twitch when big tournaments happened in 2010s, that was before HD came out.
2 was and will continue to be the peak of AOE franchise and one of the best RTS games ever made, meanwhile 4 will tumble along and slowly die because it will forever remain overshadowed by 2. Just like 3.

Honestly you have a good argument, it doesn't matter how many twitch and twitter kids play a game, it matters how good it is, and 4 is just not good. It's not a good competitive game. It's not a good casual game. it doesn't even have a map editor for fucks sake, how do you expect it to be more than a passing fad with all of this?
>>
>>913146
true and based. aoe 4 is dying slowy
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>>913150
Why can't we just want both to succeed?

Most based outcome would be if 2, 3, 4 and Myth all had healthy scenes. RTS are dead enough, we don't need infighting/
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>>913161
>Why can't we just want both to succeed?
We want to. We're just realistic about it. No one sits there going
>I fucking hope 4 is a shitty game
>I want to pay $60 for a game thats shit just so I can complain on steam forums that its shit
We compare 3 and 4 to 2 because we expect sequels to at least stand their ground against the original, not lack features a game from two thousand fucking three had, and a game from 2021 doesn't because ?????? they'll probably sell it as DLC.
It's just upsetting that newer games fail so hard we have no reason to play them over older games. It's not a nostalgia thing, they are just objectively less fun to play.
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>>913165
based. most problems that aoe 4 have was done by the game itself. They needed to fix those problems way before but now we have a deception that is taking each day a 1k less players per day. you can see that in any playerbase count charts.

>muh muh muh gamepassers

cmon they are not numerous as you think. also why paying like 13-20 bucks per month after the 1 buck offer is over to play 1 game instead of playing other games that can make the sub worth its price
>>
It's not as much a reflection upon the quality of new games. It's more the perspective and appreciation for the older game, in conjunction with the generally older audience having a different level of appreciation for the things they enjoy and willingness to commit many many hours to the same thing instead of moving from 1 generation title too the next ala Call of Duty players.

I haven't played IV so I'm not defending it or have any specific opinions on the gameplay.
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>>910893
it's shit
matches all play out the exact fucking same
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>>913146
>it doesn't even have a map editor for fucks sake
Seriously?
I spent days building shit awful LOTR "themed" maps after seeing the movies when I was 11
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>>910893
>competitivefags have no reason to move on from their main game
>RTS is full of competitivefags
>???
>No profit!
No one should be surprised by this outcome
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>>913126
AoE4 is very much designed for competition and not at all for campaign / casual play. Didn't play the previous games to compare, I was an SC2 baby.
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>>913282
I'm not surprised at all. I predicted this form day one. But shills were screaming at me.
>>
>>913005
Wait, I follow that girl. Why's she...
>>
>>913146
>It was played on Voobly and getting over ten thousand views on twitch when big tournaments happened in 2010s, that was before HD came out.
Congrats, retard, you missed the point. AoE2 was dead for a long time and you could only play it on game ranger. The fact that it was picked up again later just means you missed the point.

There is no argument to popularity. The fact that you're trying to ignore AoE2's dead phase says something.
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>>914130
>There is no argument to popularity. The fact that you're trying to ignore AoE2's dead phase says something.
so let me get this straight
>game literally dies
>servers are offline
>there is no way to play online
>except for how it had a lan mode and despite all the hussle you had to go through to make it work people still did it
>People liked the game so much that they kept playing it and even created their own servers just to play it
>It was so successful fucking microsoft hired the devs that kept it going for all these years to officially re-release it
What exactly -is- your point here? If anything game being literally dead and unplayable, and yet still having over 10 thousand active online players says something about its longevity
I don't think that if AOE4's servers go offline many people will go this far to keep it alive.
>>
>>914206
>What exactly -is- your point here? If anything game being literally dead and unplayable, and yet still having over 10 thousand active online players
Game ranger didn't have this for years. That's the point, retard. In a thread trying to spout numbers, about this game that is so popular, when it had literal years where its numbers were nil.

What exactly is YOUR point? You're trying to dance around the FACT that the game didn't have high player count by any metric for years while trying to only talk about the comeback. Meanwhile, in your head, AoE4 is just dead and this isn't possible, even though it happened to AoE2.
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>>912368
>age3 fans
Those exist?
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>>914251
There are actually people who were 12-14 at one time and their first game of some genre was X game and therefore it holds a special place in their heart.
>>
>>914253
Fucking casuals, I was like 8-9 when I found RTS
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>>910893
it costs 60 dollaroos and aoe2 has had -90% off sales for years.
>>
Viper says aoe4 is fun and he knows more than any of you
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>>914251
Apparently people still run tournaments for AOE3 and they're getting a surprising number of views for a game that's generally regarded as a failure.
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>>914313
>a game that's generally regarded as a failure.
played AoE2 for a decade, I still find AoE3 more fun
>>
>>914307
Viper is basically a microsoft employee and is already beginning to move back to AoE2.
>>
Maybe they should have finished the game before releasing it.
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>>914382
a sellout in other words
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>>914336
Ok? It's still widely regarded as a failure. No matter how far AOE4 drops, it's not gonna reach AOE3 numbers.
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>>914287
I was 5, had no idea how to read yet, and just brute forced everything

Ah, memories.
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>>914313
>for a game that's generally regarded as a failure.
Failure by what metric? According to Sandy Petersen, even if they didnt werent as sucesseful as 2, none of the AoE made by Ensamble failed sell milions
>>
>>914407
>Failed to entice players away from the MSNzone, causing Microshaft to shut down the service in an attempt to force players hands into engaging AOE3 online and in the process destroyed years of history/sent the entire Age of Empires scene adrift until 2013 nearly a decade later
>People STILL didn't play AOE3
Probably that one. AOE3 sold on the back of it's predecessors reputation and dipped off once word got about how it was.
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>>914336
AoE3 was fun but it funnily enough has the same issue as AOE4.
>Lack of gameplay depth
>Questionable pathing
AOE2 pathing isn't the best but somehow AOE3 managed to make it worse
>No unit formations
>Unit rubber banding
>Less readability due to 3d graphics

It did do some things right though
>The card game aspect, when you remove the unlocking autism, does provide an interesting layer of gameplay depth
>The nations were different enough to make each one feel fun to play
>Age up bonus choice was fun
>Treasures / trading post are a fun mechanic
>Natives were also a fun mechanic
AoE3 was this weird experimental game where it's fun to play for a bit to try out all of its whacky new features, but it was just not designed to be competitive, and once you try out all the gimmicks there's very little reason to stick with it long-term.
>>
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>>910893
the game is good if you actually like strategy
but zoomers can't go into RTS and boomers can't learn a new RTS

maybe if they go full esport they can make it popular
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>>914420
dude aoe 4 sux
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>>914420
It's gonna be good once they fix the bugs and unfuck tier s strats.
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>>914253
>There are actually people who were 12-14 at one time
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>>914416
>>Age up bonus choice was fun
>>Treasures / trading post are a fun mechanic
>>Natives were also a fun mechanic
these
I just can't go back to 2 senpai
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>>914420
>the game is good if you actually like strategy
lol
>>
>https://www.ageofempires.com/news/new-year-new-opportunities-age-iv/

tl;dr
>patch in january for critical bug fixes, delhi buffs, mongol/fire lancer nerfs, balance discussion stream next week
>another patch in the works for february
>spring major update some time after that
>ranked mode will have structured seasons for 1v1 (other modes maybe later)
>beta test of ranked mode next week for age insiders
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>>915088
and not even a mention of map editor
>but gotta cater to competitive esport niggery
Why do they never learn
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>>915096
they told us editor tools were coming in the spring patch ages ago?
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>>915098
ah. okay. I missed that. Hopefully it'll have some fun custom game potential.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1UtRnGn5hc
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>>915104
this is from back in november

>Coming in Spring 2022, we’ll be adding two new ways to enjoy Age of Empires IV.
>User Generated Content and tools allow you to bring your ideas to life. Not a mod maker yourself? No worries, you’ll still be able to enjoy the work of others – sampling their vision for unique maps, modes and more. This will provide just another way to truly make history your story in Age of Empires IV.
>Spring 2022 will also see the start of Ranked Seasons. Ranked Seasons will span 12 weeks, allow players to compete head-to-head, climb the ranked ladder, and earn exclusive in-game rewards based on performance.
>We’ll also be finalizing some minor improvements to the post-game map in Spring 2022, introducing the Patrol move you’ve been asking for, as well as exploring the inclusion of other features and fixes based on player feedback.
>>
They implemented things in the wrong order. Core gameplay issues are a pain to tinker and are likely to remain forever. Extra missions are easy to patch in later.
>>
>>910893
This game is so addictive it's like crack. Fuck it's so good I can't stop playing it, this is what the genre needed.
>>
>>915437
>Core gameplay issues are a pain to tinker and are likely to remain forever.

Actually Relic is pretty good about iterating on core features. It's not unusual for them to gradually improve stuff like pathfinding or unit selection for years.
>>
>>915537
the game is actually trash m8
>>
>what went so so wrong?
There is no Woad Raiders in the game
0/10
>>
>>916267
nah it's really good when your faction is allowed to play it
>>
>>916267
I'm having a lot of fun and found my new main game but I guess it's bad because some bozo on a Chinese cartoon forum says it is.
>>
>>916346
cope
>>
ironically all the people trying to hype it up, the streamers trying to switch over like its some big boom, the esports competition shit almost completely turns me off to the game
the games balance seems like a joke and even if it was the best competitive rts ever made the only reason im going to play age of empires is to fuck around in some team games or giant FFAs where you have some third worlders rushing eachother with horse archers, some little kids trying to tech up and spam the heaviest armor units, some guy spamming castles and walls across the map for the fuck of it. mmr ladder grind for age of empires just sound silly
>>
>>916531
ill admit though watching the tournaments there are occasionally cool moments especially with town sieges where the gameplay looks so picturesque i forget im watching the best players that have optimized the game and not 2 people just trying to put on a performance for fun
>>
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>>916534
aoe community is full of boomers
it's obvious they don't want a high competitive/esport scene
populating the game of tryhards, because they will realize how bad really they are
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>>916290
Were woad raiders ever a good unit?
They always struck me as weak because they're supposed to be used as a raiding unit, but also why would you when cav exists
>>
>>913378
Microsoft somehow managed to speedrun SC2's 2010-12 trajectory in a fraction of the time with a fraction of the attention. Maybe this means by late 2023 we'll have a stable game with tons of campaign/UMS content that they can safely abandon
>>
>>916624
R1 velites are even worse, they take way too long to throw their weapons and the enemy line will always close the distance first so they can't even really serve their intended purpose at all, let alone do it poorly
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>>916623
i know im bad i just want to fight pretty towns in the forest but the civ balance seems so bad why would you even grind getting good over fucking around for fun
>>
>>912368
Age of Empire 4 is CoH or MoW
Age of Empire 5 is Halo Wars
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>>916656
i get it, i don't want to shill but the game probably never will be balanced, too many civs and the tryhards always will figure it out the best civ and strat of the moment
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>>912368
>>916678
>tfw
>relic is making age of empires now
>with some mental gymnastics:
>"age4" being world war focused is literally COH
>"age5" being space themed is Dawn of War
the prophecy came true in a weird way
>>
>>916681
this review reminds me of old-time RTS
>play warcraft 2
>online game plan was heavily focused on economics because rushes were boring and bad
>'VS ai' game plan is to make just enough peasants to sustain making 10 footmen / a few towers as fast as possible so you can actually survive AI rushing you with their first 3 military units
>>
>>916534
This is weirdly true, it's strangely immersive for an RTS.

>>916629
No RTS can ever be SC2 again, sadly. That game had everything going for it at the exact right moment - even if it released today it wouldn't hit the same heights; it grew up right as streaming exploded which was a massive boon in its favor. No modern RTS would ever hit the top of Twitch like SC2 did.
>>
>>914249
NTA, but it sounds like you're just assuming AoE4 has AoE2's legendary staying power. Do you just see "Line goes up, line goes down"?
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>>916624
>They always struck me as weak because they're supposed to be used as a raiding unit, but also why would you when cav exists
Because cav is countered by spears. Woads are countered only by toers and archers, both of which they have a good chance against.
>>
>>917491
The only reason aoe2 had staying power is because aoe4 wasn't released yet. Aoe2 no longer has any staying power now that aoe4 is out. The wait is over, expect aoe2 to finally die out now that RTS fans have the age game they've been waiting for.
>>
>>917556
>The only reason aoe2 had staying power is because aoe4 wasn't released yet.
No, it has staying power because it was a damn good game. When people talk about the best RTS games on the market, you have AoE2, SC2, and Brood War. That's it.
>Aoe2 no longer has any staying power now that aoe4 is out.
If that was true, you'd expect AoE4 to continually siphon more and more of AoE2's fans away, instead of disappointing them and going through the usual initial plummet.
>expect aoe2 to finally die out now that RTS fans have the age game they've been waiting for.
Take a moment and look through all AoE4 dialogue on the internet. There are very few players who both prefer it over AoE2 and understand RTS game design well. AoE4 is the short bus of RTS games. It picks up anyone who couldn't get into AoE2. This includes the devs.
>>
>>917566
>No, it has staying power because it was a damn good game
>Most popular=most goodest
wrong
>When people talk about the best RTS games on the market, you have AoE2, SC2, and Brood War. That's it.
[citation needed]
>If that was true, you'd expect AoE4 to continually siphon more and more of AoE2's fans away, instead of disappointing them and going through the usual initial plummet.
If you look at when the player count for AoE2 peaks on Steam it's during prime time in East Asia. A lot of the AoE2 players are Chinese and Indians who can't afford AoE4. Plus a lot of the AoE4 players play with game pass so they don't show up on the Steam stats page. AoE4 player count peaks during prime time in NA and Europe.
>Take a moment and look through all AoE4 dialogue on the internet. There are very few players who both prefer it over AoE2 and understand RTS game design well.
>RTS game design is unbalanced civs and units and a rigid meta
I just saw a Reddit post where the OP tried AoE4 and preferred it to AoE2 and was staying. I've stopped playing AoE2 in favor of AoE4 and I'm getting all my friends to slowly transition with me. They're really enjoying the game. AoE4 is just the better game, deal with it chud. The only reason you wouldn't upgrade is if you're poor and live in the developing world and would need to save a few months worth of wages in order to afford it. You couldn't pay me to play the now defunct AoE2 over 4. 4 is just vastly better on every level.
>>
>>917592
>Most popular=most goodest
Nowhere in the post.
>[citation needed]
So you've never even seen RTS discussion
>If you look at when the player count for AoE2 peaks on Steam it's during prime time in East Asia. A lot of the AoE2 players are Chinese and Indians who can't afford AoE4. Plus a lot of the AoE4 players play with game pass so they don't show up on the Steam stats page. AoE4 player count peaks during prime time in NA and Europe.
So, you're saying the game WOULD overtake AoE2, but many of the players are just priced out of the game, and an unknown contingent might be using an amalgamate service. Sounds like a pointless argument.
>I've stopped playing AoE2 in favor of AoE4 and I'm getting all my friends to slowly transition with me.
No, you're complaining to /vst/ about AoE2, as you've been doing for the past decade. Just go play AoE4 if you enjoy it that much.
>>
>>917601
>Nowhere in the post.
Lmao every line of your post makes an appeal to popularity.
>So you've never even seen RTS discussion
I'm in one right now. The point is that statement is useless without quantification.
>So, you're saying the game WOULD overtake AoE2, but many of the players are just priced out of the game, and an unknown contingent might be using an amalgamate service. Sounds like a pointless argument.
Well I'm not sure if it has or not if you are defining "overtake" as "more popular." Although it definitely has overtaken it by being the better game. But it certainly costs more because it isn't a 20 year old game and a large proportion of the RTS audience are poor grognards. I mean Ensemble Studios isn't even around anymore. But that's one reason why game devs have avoided the RTS genre. Turns out it's difficult to penetrate the genre when the audience is full of poor fussy grognards.
>No, you're complaining to /vst/ about AoE2, as you've been doing for the past decade.
Oh that's rich. Every thread on /vst/ about AoE4 is bombarded with hate and people bringing up AoE2. Not the other way around like you imply. I played my fair share of AoE2 and moved on, years ago. I don't even think about it and as far as it's concerned it's a dead game to me. Except when you morons constantly bring it up on here.
>Just go play AoE4 if you enjoy it that much.
I am :)
>>
>>917614
>every line of your post makes an appeal to popularity.
Because that's the core of the argument.
>I'm in one right now. The point is that statement is useless without quantification.
Hang around Age threads then. There's a guy who gives regular updates on both numbers.
>Well I'm not sure if it has or not if you are defining "overtake" as "more popular."
I mean draining away 2's playerbase.
>Oh that's rich. Every thread on /vst/ about AoE4 is bombarded with hate and people bringing up AoE2.
Yeah, because AoE4 was a failure in terms of game design, and the people who bought it feel ripped-off.
>Not the other way around like you imply.
APMlets have been complaining about Age 2 for literal decades. They're still doing it now.

We're already far from the point: If Age 4 dies, it's not coming back to life. It doesn't have the depth or replayability of its predecessor, and neither Microsoft nor RTS autists wouldn't miss it enough to revive it.
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>>917556
>Aoe2 no longer has any staying power now that aoe4 is out.
lol
>>
>>917635
I've been wanting to ask for over a month now, where do you get those?
>>
>>917653
https://steamcharts.com/
>>
>>917657
Thank you.
>>
>>917592
I usually don't say this but what a fucking cope. It even includes chud namecalling. The numbers are falling. There's no way you can deny this. I seriously hope this is just bait.
>>
>>912368
Pretty much this
>>
>>917657
>https://steamcharts.com/
I can't wait to see what the numbers look like after TW:W3 comes out, both on Steam and GamePass to boot.
>>
>>917943
I don't think total war ever affected aoe2 numbers
>>
>>917491
AoE2's staying power is a historical accident; it wouldn't exist if the game was released today, no matter how it played or looked. Nostalgia is a powerful drug.
>>
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>>918841
>AoE2's staying power is a historical accident; it wouldn't exist if the game was released today
Retarded take.
Not wrong, but retarded.
There's reasons beyond nostalgia AOE2 is considered the pinnacle of comfy RTS.
You can say this about any other game, even those that do genuinely hold up
>Mario's staying power is a historic accident, it wouldn't exist if the game was released today
Like. Yeah. But you have to consider that both Mario and AoE created whole genres around them
>inb4 muh other boomer rts
There were RTS before AoE2 and Starcraft, but those games pretty much defined their respective sub-genres. AoE2 being 'medieval spear > knight > bow > infantry' game, and Starcraft being sci fi games.
>>
>>914393
Can you blame him?
>>
>>918841
This right here. I get that people are upset that aoe4 isn't perfect but Jesus Christ wherever I go online everybody is screaming at the devs that it's somehow an abortion of a game and it should be killed because it doesn't pull in the numbers. People have become absolutely deluded and seem to have taken up residence permanently on "mount stupid". If you guys know it all, why not make your own AoE?
>>
>>919040
>If you guys know it all, why not make your own AoE?
How do you think we got Microsoft to pick AoE2 back up? It was revived from a mod and fan-servers. The original team isn't on it anymore.
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As an Orthodox I'm offended that this unit that has no basis in historical reality exists.
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>>919085
It wasn't a thing as it's own unit, but there certainly were monks that also were warriors.
>>
>>919085
How is it possible that unit models are worse then in DE? Not even tlaking about god-awful shaders everywhere.
>>
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>>919135
This is what happens when you hire pajeet and chink to make your 3d models instead of paying an actual artist.
>>
>>919045
You really don't get it do you? All of you naysayers bashing the latest release yammering on and on about graphics, gameplay and balance as if you have the knowledge, tools or preserverence to make even an iota of that thought into existence. Ideas live and die by their implementation. They revived an old idea and cleaned up it's attire, big whoop. You try to stand at the cradle of something new, let alone audacious see how well you fare. Every goddamn time something new releases it's the same whiney, vapid, worthless bullshit I see spouted over and over and over again. You're all a bunch of cunts.
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>>919191
>You really don't get it do you? All of you naysayers bashing the latest release yammering on and on about graphics, gameplay and balance as if you have the knowledge, tools or preserverence to make even an iota of that thought into existence. Ideas live and die by their implementation. They revived an old idea and cleaned up it's attire, big whoop. You try to stand at the cradle of something new, let alone audacious see how well you fare. Every goddamn time something new releases it's the same whiney, vapid, worthless bullshit I see spouted over and over and over again. You're all a bunch of cunts.
I can smell the axe body spray and fedora from this post
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>>910893
The real question is - why do you care?
And why do you spam /vst/ with endless threads about it?
>>
>>919135
They pushed team color over unit readability.

>>918852
The flip side to this point is that a new game could be hands-down the best RTS to ever exist, could be a strictly superior alternative to AoE2, and the AoE2 playerbase still would not leave.
>>
>>918692
Obviously not the AoE2 numbers, but what will it do with the "I will play anything RTS-related it just needs to be new and shilled" demographic that I'm guessing is plentifully represented in AoE4.
>>
>>919217
Nah. That doesn't expalin why the horse looks worse. Or the spear or the hat/helmet.
>>
>>919191
>You couldn't program AoE4, so SHUT UP!
Nah, man.
>>
>>910893
>homing projectiles
>no terrain height damage bonus
>no friendly fire with siege
>no quick walling/house walling
>shit water combat
Everything else is either good or just different, but those changes alone make the game garbage.

>>914393
The guy who literally played Raid Shadow Legends on stream is a sellout? Who would know?
>>
>>919357
The things you listed, aside from water combat, are some of the best changes.
>>
>>919370
If you want combat to be mindless in your real time game, sure.
>>
>>919374
>Mindless is when a game is not AoE2, and the more different from AoE2 it is, the more mindless it is.
>>
>>910893
>What went so so wrong?
They didn't replace the UI with 3 buttons
>>
>>919380
>let me just point my catapult in the general direction of where combat is happening with no care about whether it's gonna hit my own units or whether I have the height advantage or not, without having to dodge enemy fire, also without having to make the decision whether I delete it or not to get a better hit by throwing away an expensive unit
>this is much more engaging gameplay and not a downgrade at all
>>
>>919394
>it's a downgrade because it's different
>no formula except 2 is good, any other combination of elements is bad

If you want 2, go play 2.
>>
>>919406
>If you want 2, go play 2.
Everyone is doing just that, it's the whole point of the thread.
>>
>>919409
So what do you want? What would make you happy?

Nothing. The game you want is 2. You're not willing to let any other take on the formula have a chance, so there's no game they could possibly make that would please you.
>>
>>919406
That's funny becasue apparently many people took you advice and are coming back from 4 to DE.
>>
>>919422
They just need to make a good game. Not 6/10 designed at the corporate whiteboard.
>>
>>919324
Proving my point exactly. You'd rather punch down than aspire for something better. You would think what you're doing is criticism but it's just spinning wheels man. I'm out, see you all in hell after ww3 breaks out and they make a mediocre RTS out of that.
>>
>>919422
The things I said shouldn't have been changed here:

>>919357
Everything else I like, the asymmetry, the age up mechanics, even the graphics grew on me.
>>
>>919432
They did make a good game. They didn't even try to make water fun, and they released it in early access half-finished without telling anyone, but the things that the AoE2 fanatics want changed are core gameplay aspects which is the game's strongest point.

For example, Mangonels are fundamentally different units than they are in 2. They're not just plucked straight from AoE2 but with FF turned off.
>>
>>919406
No, it's a downgrade because it's shit and completely removes player agency and responsibility. I don't mind the house spacing not allowing for walling but homing projectiles and the lack of siege friendly fire are legitimate issues.
>>
>>919502
>removes player agency
Moron take. You win if you play better and lose if you play worse.
>>
>>919541
But it's true. You not wanting to accept it doesn't make it wrong, retard.
>>
>>919549
It's not, you don't even know what the word agency means in this context. This is like saying the game has less agency because every hit doesn't open a mini-window where you play a game of Tetris and how well you do affects the damage your unit takes.
>>
>>919502
>and completely removes player agency and responsibility
I wouldn't say completely but:

>>919541
If agency was 10/10 and you move it down to 6/10 you still have agency, but some was removed.
>>
Player agency isn't real because all our actions are predetermined by the divine plan
>>
>>910893
The campaign is ass. Who the fuck thought it was a good idea to make so basic bitch soulless documentary instead of a cool story?
>>
>>919556
Removing the ability to avoid projectiles and removing the need to actually be smart with siege weapons is absolutely removing at least some player agency. It was specifically done to make the game more casual so that more people could paly it. You're just an idiot for actually denying this.
>>
>>919440
>You'd rather punch down than aspire for something better.
So, making a DE mod that replaces quickwalling? Are you lost?
>>
>>919357
>no quick walling/house walling
Anon, that's the best change they made. Ballistics coming by default isn't too bad either.
You have some shit ideas.
>>
>>919592
The devs focused on mechanics that were fun while cutting out all the tedious crap. This is a winning game development strategy. This is why aoe4 blows the prior titles out of the water. Loading up an age game only having to micro your units around projectiles is unrealistic, janky, and boring as fuck. In real life those projectiles would be moving too fast to dodge. Some arbitrary bullshit about projectiles dealing more damage if shot from higher elevation is also unrealistic and a boring mechanic. They made LOS change depending on elevation which is both realistic and much more intuitive. Same with the quick walling garbage. That isn't realistic or an enjoyable mechanic. Are you starting to see a pattern here? Adding all these mechanics just for the sake of making the game more complicated doesn't make the game better. The devs instead decided to highlight the fun mechanics and have players focus on the fun mechanics while removing all the unnecessary bloat. This is why aoe4 is much more addictive than any of the other games and why it feels smoother, more fluid, with much better pacing. The game doesn't force you to awkwardly kite a boar back to your TC every match because that isn't fun. Sheep automatically herd to the scout because the game wants you to focus on scouting instead of playing the "manually bring back the explored sheep back to your TC micromanaging mini-game every minute" every game. Mines aren't this weird shape that you have to take a few seconds each time to play tetris with except there is never an ideal solution. No, instead you just plop down the mine and be done with it. This is why I can never go back to the older age games after playing aoe4 because they're just a gigantic tedious pain in the ass to play. I'm grateful how the latest Age of Empires turned out because I can only imagine the bloated clusterfuck of a confused mess you autists would have designed. Actually you probably wouldn't have even wanted a new game.
>>
>>919686
>This is a winning game development strategy.
Those player numbers are saying otherwise.
>>
>>919686
>Loading up an age game only having to micro your units around projectiles is unrealistic, janky, and boring as fuck.
How is the adrenaline of dodging projectiles more boring than just right clicking and watching as they automatically fight optimally? Why not just play a turn based game at that point? I'm not even saying I'm good at projectile dodging or quick walling but when I manage to do it it's fun and exciting, unlike AoE4 that doesn't even let me try it.
>>
>>919692
>Filtering out plebs from ruining your game is a bad thing
>>919698
The fights aren't automatically fought optimally though, it just focuses on the more enjoyable and strategic elements rather than seeing two armies of ranged units zigzagging around and shooting each other. Totally not how medieval battles were fought. Hidden forests offer the opportunity for ambush and flanking. The unit counter system actually works meaning the game rewards mixed armies and players that maneuver their armies around. Much more realistic too. Quick walling is actually a sign the game suffers from poor pacing, balance, and mechanics if players are forced to use exploits because there isn't any other viable defensive strategy.
>>
>>919731
I don't know if it's a bad thing or not. But it certainly isn't a "winning game development strategy".
>>
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>>919686
>Fun is objective
I agree that some of those mechanics were shit, but you're terrible at communicating that. Personally, I say the Age 2 hill attack/defense bonus is perfectly fine, and it creates meaningful strategic points on the map.
>>919698
>Age games should be action games
Anon, those mechanics still dominate the meta even now, and only exist because Age 2 doesn't have proper early game defensive play. "Oh no, I didn't make enough archers. They're going to die. Guess I'll just manually instruct them to start dodging the arrows in flight to make up for my tactical failure."
This scenario is seen as a stain on the "Strategy" genre. AoE2 is more of an action game in the early phases (especially when militia play tag with enemy villagers), and that's why its detractors are so persistent on that point.
>>
>>919731
>enjoyable and strategic elements
Like that? There's no elevation advantage, there are fewer formations to utilize, projectiles never miss so you never need to take unit speed into account when engaging with an enemy, and you don't need to bother about siege engine friendly fire and you can't even use them to destroy the environment like you could in the original games, which in turn allows for more strategy to be used to try and outplay your opponent. the game removes strategic elements, how is it focusing on them and making what hasn't been removed more enjoyable if what's still there is basically all automated?
>>
>>919745
All RTSs are action-like, it's why StarCraft fags sperg so much about APM. Action is fun and I want my RTSs with some action in then, otherwise I would be playing Civilization. Removing action is removing tension and fun specially when your biggest game is known for having action. Don't make a sequel to a game full of action that removes that action and then complain that people are going back to the older game.

>>919731
>if players are forced to use exploits
A lot of fun games rely on exploits and no one cares how medieval battles were actually fought, that is the least important inaccurate thing in AoE anyway, it's not like monks converting catapults to Islam is accurate. AoE is an arcadey franchise.
>>
>>919758
>There's no elevation advantage
Line of sight advantage
>there are fewer formations to utilize
Aoe4 actually has the ability to rotate your army formation like in Total War. The prior age games don't even have this. That alone is superior. Plus more formations are coming.
>projectiles never miss so you never need to take unit speed into account when engaging with an enemy
That just means the game lets you focus on more meaningful and enjoyable things. You shouldn't be able to dodge projectiles because that isn't realistic and doesn't make sense.
>and you don't need to bother about siege engine friendly fire
Who wants to worry about lmao? In large battles that is unavoidable and just takes more control away from the players.
>and you can't even use them to destroy the environment like you could in the original games
Good point that was an extremely annoying thing I'm glad they took away. Being able to negate terrain like that ruined a lot of strategy and depth.
>>
>>919826
>That just means the game lets you focus on more meaningful and enjoyable things.
You should decide if you want to focus more on other things or if you want to focus more on micro, not the game forcing that choice on you. Action is enjoyable but you can't focus on it in AoE4.

>You shouldn't be able to dodge projectiles because that isn't realistic and doesn't make sense.
If you have a fast unit like a knight riding on a horse while zigzagging, having an archer with homing arrows hitting every shot is the opposite of realistic. A light cavalry unit running away from an archer shouldn't get hit by anything.
>>
>>919805
>All RTSs are action-like, it's why StarCraft fags sperg so much about APM.
It's action-like due to mechanical implications, not because they actively desired what we now see. Starcraft is the biggest argument against APM-based defense one can provide, so thanks.
>otherwise I would be playing Civilization
I played Civilization 5 and Civilization 6 less than a week ago. They're not similar in any sense.
>Removing action is removing tension and fun
Fun is not objective. Action being used as the basis of defense in AoE2 removes much of the fun for people who want to engage with the bulk of the game, since rushes can't be fended off normally.
>Don't make a sequel to a game full of action that removes that action and then complain that people are going back to the older game.
Age 4 has many, many issues. It can't be attributed solely to the lack of action.
>A lot of fun games rely on exploits
Saying, "The game is broken, but I like the way it's broken" isn't a defense. It's just an opinion.
>>
>>919833
>Action is enjoyable but you can't focus on it in AoE4.
Action is cheese and a mechanical exploit in this genre. Go play a MOBA.
>>
>>919851
>Action is cheese and a mechanical exploit in this genre.
The genre that popularized the term "APM"?

>>919846
>Starcraft is the biggest argument against APM-based defense one can provide, so thanks.
You mean one of the most popular games in the genre (and remains so even with devs not supporting it) is not a good example of it? I think you guys are playing the wrong genre and the devs listened to the wrong people when making 4, would explain it bleeding players.

>Action being used as the basis of defense in AoE2 removes much of the fun for people who want to engage with the bulk of the game
Action is part of the bulk of the game, it's not something you put aside to enjoy whatever is left.
>>
>>919826
>Line of sight advantage
Same as all the other games
>You shouldn't be able to dodge projectiles because that isn't realistic and doesn't make sense.
This is retarded.
>Who wants to worry about lmao?
People who liked all the games prior to this, clearly.
>>Being able to negate terrain like that ruined a lot of strategy and depth.
Bait and you can still do things like this in game with villagers just negating walls by chopping trees around the walls down, whch is a completely valid tactic. Acting like this is bad jus tmkaes you look like an idiot.
>>
>>919859
>The genre that popularized the term "APM"?
Yes, that genre, because APM generally correlates with swift decision-making, not just manually turning soldiers into superhuman combatants.
>You mean one of the most popular games in the genre (and remains so even with devs not supporting it) is not a good example of it?
It's the perfect tool to demonstrate why the genre is stagnant, and how the expectations of players have been twisted.
>I think you guys are playing the wrong genre and the devs listened to the wrong people when making 4
These are, design-wise, minor issues. It's nothing genre-defining.
>Action is part of the bulk of the game, it's not something you put aside to enjoy whatever is left.
Action as commanding units to take a hill position, retargeting, or actively constructing a forward tower/walls, is fine. Action as "Building walls on the spot as your only, but also your perfect tool to deal with melee raids during the early-game" is jank and underthought. If a better alternative had been the default, it would've been accepted without a second thought.

This conversation really has no future. You desire a byproduct of a corrupt design, I want a complete and the other guy only wants a game where the skill ceiling isn't raised by APM. We're not going to agree.
>>
>>919874
>This conversation really has no future.
True. I want an arcadey action game with focus on resource management and positioning, and you want some sort of medieval general simulator. In fact I'd say I don't even care all that much about the theme being medieval, I enjoy StarCraft too after all. It's just that the game was already going in the direction I wanted it and they changed it for some reason in the sequels. Now people like OP ask why the game is bleeding players.
>>
>>919887
>and you want some sort of medieval general simulator.
No, I most certainly do not. I just want real, interactive defensive options in the early game, and restrictions on how much player control impacts unit interactions.
>>
>>919891
>i'm too shit so I want the game to coddle me
Classic.
>>
>>919980
>"I don't know the first thing about strategy. The new game should allow me to bash my brain against the wall to win! That'll fix it!"
>>
>>919985
Someone properly utilizing various game elements, like terrain advantage, to their advantage isn't "bashing my brain against the wall" just becuase you're too dumb to do it yourself, or too shit to counter it.
>>
>>920001
>Someone properly utilizing various game elements, like terrain advantage, to their advantage isn't "bashing my brain against the wall"
You can't even follow a conversation. I was in support of terrain advantage. Get the fuck out.
>>
Patch: https://www.ageofempires.com/news/aoe-iv-patch-10257/
>matchmaking search expands ELO faster (no change in range, just speed)
>Scouts/Warrior monks slower when carrying deer/relic
>Horsemen gain an additional +1 ranged armor in every age after dark (+4 total in imperial)
>HRE/Delhi Spearmen brace fixed
>Prelate buff bug fixed
>Horse Archer attack speed nerfed
>Mongol starting wood and outpost wood cost nerfed
>various Delhi tech times adjusted
>Fire Lancer cost increased, HP increased, melee/torch/AoE damage all decreased

>February patch will buff Abbasid, adjust siege weapons and demo ships, and fix animation cancelling
>wider-ranging fix sometime in the future to address gamewide general attack speed issues
>>
>>920153
>Horsemen gain an additional +1 ranged armor in every age after dark (+4 total in imperial)

Correction: It's only +2 total, starting in feudal age. They explained it on stream.
>>
>>919085
Man, the buildings look okay but the models are seriously barely above AoM in terms of quality - and they lack AoM's character.
>>
>>920898
Building destruction is actually surprisingly satisfying to look at. Especially when you take a wall down with bombards.
>>
>>919357
>>homing projectiles
atrocious
>>no terrain height damage bonus
bad? should maybe give extra range
>>no friendly fire with siege
bad
>>no quick walling/house walling
good, these were tactics derived from the game engine, now you have to build real walls
>>shit water combat
bad
>>
>>910893
>What went so so wrong?
Trying to cater to autistic mpfags, forgetting that autistic mpfags prefer a 20 year old game with a meta and optimal build orders set in stone for them to mindlessly gookclick through
>>
>>919357

>homing projectiles
>no friendly fire with siege
>no quick walling/house walling

all great improvements
>>
>>919686

Well said
>>
>>921046
>actually defending archers firing guided missiles
>>
>>921051

yep now fuck off back to 2
>>
>>910893
>new patch dropped today
>fixed literally every problem
>aoe2 players abandoning in droves
aoe4 bros...WE WON.
>>
Game looks like a generic cartoon. Why play this when aoe2/aom exists?
>>
>>922188

better gameplay, more fun
>>
>>922213
>better gameplay
>>
>>910893
The gameplay was okay. muh homing arrows micronerds get bent, it was always shit and aoe2 was the only game that did it

Problems were questionable balance, gamebreaking bugs and slow patches and weird priorities.
Being slow to update balance could be excusable, the game could still be fun unless you are a total compfag, but leaving actual game breaking bugs for weeks or months, fixing them only to introduce even worse ones that in turn get left to languish unfixed just killed it. Designer quitting and any confidence that it will get improved over time going to toilet didn't help either.
>>
>>922171
What?
AoE4: 24 hour peak 13,211
AoE2 DE: 24 hour peak 18,457
>>
>>910893
Released unfinished, and devs are very slow to push out patches and rebalances.
Like they went on holiday for like a month while one civ still had basically all its unique mechanics bugged and broken
>>
>>922404
check again.
>>
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>>922931
I don't know why you think he would need to do this, it's even lower than yesterday.
>>
>>919357
lmao he played raid?!! lol
>>
>>910893
>homing cartoon focus firing arrows
>no blood
>blocky fortnite looking 3d models
>cucked chat filter
>no general chat
>no map editor
>xbox games pass means the majority will move onto the next shiny game
I half suspect this game was funded by microcuck to get people to sign up for xbox game pass
>>
>>921046
>no friendly fire with siege
>great improvement
nigga wut
>>
>>922213
>more fun





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