Can we all finally agree?Firstly, gookclick isn't even "strategy" it is tactics at absolute best but really it is action. Starcraft is an action game, there is no strategy. The people who enjoy real strategic experiences come but are turned off because of this and the people who would enjoy the action do not come because they do not want strategy.Even if you had the best strategic mind ever you would not beat a gookclicker with 400 APM because strategy is not important when You have gookclick.
>>908799This is the same kind of poster who insists the Victoria 3 war system is good BECAUSE IT ISN'T GOOKCLICK BRO
>>908799I'm sorry, OP, but you have to go back.
>>908804A broken clock is right twice a day, even redditors understand that being a twitchy meth addict isn't the same as being a chessmaster.
>>908864What redditors don't understand is that twitchy meth addicts and their favorite games don't stop anyone from playing chess. Do you see Starcraft players making threads about chesstards killing the RTS genre? You don't, because Starcraft players are not shitflinging retards like you.Go back.
>>908799Any competitive online mode in any game is cancer.>Competitive League is cancer>Competitive Starcraft is cancer>Competitive Civilization is cancer>Competitive WoW is cancer>Competitive Counter Strike is cancerIt's not that tryhard clicking killed RTS but that its a niche, just like turn based games.Which brings me to:There are non spam clicky games like civ / total war / age of wonders / SMAC / HoMM 3/4/5, but I bet you don't play those, OP. I bet your own attention span is not good enough to play these more 'chess like' games, which is why you don't buy them, don't play them, they fail commercially and the strategy genre continues to try to cater to gooks.Besides this, you are posting on 4chan, you were never going to be a grand master starcraft player. Like I say, competitive modes in any game are cancerous because they always devolve into stupid shit vs cheese. It's not an RTS problem, its a people problem.So no. It didn't kill strategy. You just didn't buy the games that deviated, and you don't play them instead of the games you claim 'killed' it. You killed strategy, OP.
>>908804>Why don't these redditors add each other as friends and play whatever games together in a non tryhardimg manner? Why do they expect to go into a public matchmaking and not face tryhards, cheaters and fags?You can literally make a facebook group or w/e the fuck and just talk to each other and play age of empires with a 30 minute treaty rule, or whatever it is those people will find fun to satisfy their autism.
What killed strategy is multiplayer orientation and esports bullshit. Most people simply don't give a fuck about it, they just want their campaigns.Also making good RTS requires a lot of hard work and understanding what the fuck you are trying to do down to the tiny details, and modern gaming industry lacks in both departments.
>>908883Playing against friends still means you gonna lose against a better player. Redditors don't want a non-tryhard environment, otherwise they would be contempt with playing low MMR matches. They want to consistently win without putting any effort into it. It's impossible even in RNG-heavy games like CCG, so redditors endlessly cope: "I just don't want to stick to meta", "I don't like gookclick", "My opponents are cheaters", "The game is unbalanced", etc.There are dozens of threads like this in the archive.
>>908799>I'm slow AND stupid>>>/vmg/
>>908871You are literally wrong, every turn based game is given terrible reviews by meth addicts because you don't have to constantly micro units into dodging attacks. Turn based games are almost dead thanks to starcraft players and their constant whining about muh engagement and muh apm.
>>908935>every turn based game is given terrible reviews by meth addictsShow proofs.
>>908935>>908955>two literal who posts saying they don't like turn based games is the reason genre is deadAnon do -you- like turn based combat?Do you play games based upon public opinion of r*ddit?If so, kindly neck yourself.Otherwise, buy the games you want to play and stop being a fag.Turn based games are dead not because of some starcraft review bombing boogey men but because no one knows how to make a good one any more. JRPGs were always shit and civ-clones peaked with 5.If someone makes a genuinely good turn based game that is>deep>not rng bullshit>offers actual viable diversity of playstyles>the AI is not pants on head retarded>you have actual options on how you wish to play beyond blobbingit'll sell well because currently there is a hole in this market and there's a lot of people who'd love a modern SMAC / Civ game that does not suck dicks.
>>908799You know I used to agree with the gookclick memes but OP and other retards have taken it so beyond the pale stupid that I am finding new ways to appreciate APM.thanks OP
>Even if you had the best strategic mind ever you would not beat a gookclicker with 400 APM because strategy is not important when You have gookclick.Imagine being so pathetic you are unironically too afraid to play a game because of the things you make up in your head.
And not only apmlets are too afraid to play a game because scary gookclickers appear under their beds at night, but they also go on /vst/ and write paragraphs demanding some sort of a welfare for retards of their kind.
Not playing a game because you are not having fun is one thing. But making up imaginary worlds where APM is all that matters and endlessly coping and seething is actual mental illness.>ur game isn't a strategy because of the things i imagine about it>this game is this and that and not that and this, btw i've played 0 hours of this game>i DEMAND ur game that i've played 0 hours of to be this and that. no i won't play other games that already are this and that, i want THIS PARTICULAR GAME to stop torturing my ailing mind.Holy fuck.
>>909016It didn't start out this way, it used to be a discussion about what meaningful tactics are.But it has unironically become this, yes. Gookclickers are cowards and mad they get beat online.
>>909013>>909014>>909016That's also a good point the fucking apm chuds are missing>you can have 600 apm>but if all ur doing is clicking sheep or w/e the fuck you wont win>your actions have to have a purpose behind them>hence: strategy>even if you have 2000 apm or some other retarded number, most (good) games still have ways to counter most strategies>so if you straight up outplay your opponents by making them spam their army of 200 <UNIT A> into your army of 50 <UNIT B> that counters them, you'll still win>Or even play dirty and just raid enemy base when their troops are away, you'd be surprised by how many players at low-mid-lowhigh MMR tend to quit the moment they see enemy successfully raid their baseit can get retardy at top 5% of players in any game, where someone I knew legit had to upgrade their pc to compete with higher fps people, but I don't think anyone making gook threads aims to be anywhere near that level of play.
>>908799>>908864excellent troll, looking forward to the next hundred threads about your autistic hatred of skill>>909022the chuds aren't missing anythingno one's missing it, the literal autists and faggots bitching endlessly about active gameplay perceive no gain from being reasonable, the troll tourists were never interested in being reasonable, and everyone who isn't garbage at videogames already knows technique adds far more than it interferes with in any game where it existsspreading this retarded sophistry around like shit on a toilet seat would be a bannable offense if they were interested in enforcing /vst/'s rules against inflammatory threads, but the mods get off to it so here's paraplegia lamentation thread #500
>>909016Is 150 APM supposed to be low? That is literally clicking more than 2 buttons every second. That is your idea of slow gameplay?
>>909136>That is literally clicking more than 2 buttons every second.No it's not. SC2 has very good controls so you can output a lot of apm with a few key presses.>That is your idea of slow gameplay?Where did I say that SC2 is slow? My point is that you don't win games by having more apm than your opponent, as some delusional apmlets are claiming.
>>908976>only the opinions of famous people matterThese are examples of ordinary people who hate tb games you tard. And they were just from the first page of Google. If I were to link every example of people hating tb games this thread would be autosaged. Not that you'd care you disingenuous fuck, you'd just ignore them all in the next thread.It's funny you say tb games are dead because there's no good tb games. The genre has gone through a revival between Xcom and Battle Brothers. Meanwhile Gookclick is a dead genre barring a few Spring engine freeware offshoots. Gookclickers deserve their fate, you get to play Supcom and Starcraft 2 forever while whining about superior Turn based games not being twitchy enough for you.
>>908799>It's all so tiresomeYes, the retards like you who think APM is the only thing that matters in Starcraft are very tiresome.
>>909342quite factually how starcraft 2 is developed
>>908804Why does reddit encourage writing text walls of zero content that no-one is going to read?
>>909408it's in the name
>>909013>>909014>>909016>mfw im always the guy with high apm getting trashed by others with low apmGoddamit I hate it when every single cheese throws me off my BO so much so even simple cheeses that have a macro followup just screws me over really badly. I hate losing to Maxpax openers every single TvP.
>>908935There are more TBS games being made now than base building RTs, take your meds. If anything I've only see the opposite with TBS players leaving negative reviews on indie RTS games complaining that they can't keep up and would prefer a turn based experience.
>>909013>>909014>>909016OP completely btfo
>>909571That's the point you absolute tard, TBS is successful because they're good games and Gookclicks are forever damned because it's audience are too autistic to understand that noone else enjoys them.Learn how to read fucking retard.
>>909617>Learn how to read fucking retard>Turn based games are almost dead thanks to starcraft>>908799Strategy games were never even close to being dead. Paradox GSG, Total War and Civ are constantly topping the charts on steam. We are consistently getting new strategy from varied amount of genres. They are profitable and getting good reviews, by players too and form long living playerbases.Only rts struggle to have new masterpiece released
>>909617>Learn how to read fucking retard.You're the one that can't read, also kill yourself and your trash threads. Every time you post something like this again I will just derail it.
>>908955These are about games in general and it's true, the combat in Zelda, Dark Souls and even Skyrim are more fun than any turn based JRPG. Story is another debate but story sucks in all those games and every JRPG/CRPG ever made so suck my dick.Post some examples of negative reviews of TBS games because they aren't real time
>>909622RTS very much was dead but it is having a Renaissance thanks to Paradox and the emergence of grand strategy.
>>909631Paradox games are map painting toys, they are not strategy games.
>>908799Here's a game where you can escape the scary gookclickers, anon. Something better for your IQ range.
Funniest thing is that these threads are never made by average 120apm players mad at 400apm pros. It's 20apm vegetables seetheing at anyone above 60.
>>908799>Can we all finally agree?No.
>>909637Grand strategy is the absolute pinnacle of strategy. It combines all aspects of economic, and conventional warfare, conventional, and unconventional diplomacy, and politics. No other genre comes close to the scope and depth of grand strategy. Hence why it is GRAND strategy.It does not encompass RSI gookclick ADHD spamming but that is not strategy anyway.
>>909626I'd tell you to kill yourself but you can't tie a noose by clicking on it 200 times a second.
>>909682I'm sure those are the real people you're angry at and not the average person who doesn't have arthritis.
>>909670And yet they're right. Incredible that people can make true statements regardless of their personal qualities.
>>908799Gookclick only killed RTS, which is perfectly fine by me. More specialized strategy genres are thriving.
>>909685I mean you specifically, for ruining all my threads.Kill yourself.
>>909700I'm not even that guy. You seem like an absolute cunt though. WAHHHHH MY THREADS WHINING ABOUT THE GOOKCLICK BUZZWORD WERE RUINED BY ONE ANON WAAHHHHHH
>>908804>you have to go back>he says while posting about Reddit>he says while posting soijaksThe absolute state of vst...
>>908799shitter cope threadhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W-jQiVNO4w
>>909785> okay i will go with low apm> ugh, i can't scout because it requires many actions> ugh, i can't optimise my workers> ugh, these builds are requiring too much apm> ugh, my head requires too much apm to function> ugh, they will surely not notice if i will go with 900 apm spikes when needed and will just try to stop clicking into emptiness in the downtime.> during entire match rants how much more effective he could be if he was allowed to go with more apm> still ends with making more than 1 action per second on average.I should be really glad that i don't play these games.OP is a faggot.
>>909704You literally admitted to it, you can't take that back now.
>>909945>AdmittedOkay yep, you're a schizo.
>>909948>>909626>Every time you post something like this again I will just derail it.>Inb4 I was just pretending to be retarded duurrrr
>>909952I just said I'm not that anon, mister schizo. We really need poster IDs like on /pol/ unironically
>>909965Yeah we do need poster ID, you could just be that anon but pretending to be retarded.
poster id is cancer and does nothing to stop shitposters samefagging
>>908804APM is not strategy. Do you think General Eizenhower was issuing orders every second? Or that Sun Tzu was giving people different commands 400 times a minute? No.
>>910501they would if they could
>>909972samefagging is just the excuse of the ones losing an argument anyway
Lmao @ the seething and coping gookclickers in this thread.You are not real strategists you are just children playing glorified MOBA. You are not like a great general or leader you are just an autistic sperg having a seizure as you spam clicking until your wrist gives out. Real strategy is methodical and slow it is considered and calculated not lightning fast gookclicking.
>>910510No they wouldn't, they had subordinates to do that job for them. Gookclick fags don't even understand delegation of authority. Your entire lifestyle is based around huffing Monsters and snus and pretending you're actually generals when you try to be MacArthur, Patton, Eisenhower, and fucking Mark Clark at the same time.
>>911172>>911178Show me on the doll where the people who can click once a second hurt you
>>911180>paradoxfag runs into an argument, resorts to shitposting to copeHow does it feel knowing your genre is based around exploiting bad AI and you think it somehow makes you a god because you can paint the map brown
>>911190>ParadoxfagWhy are you projecting, anon? I don't even play parashit games.
>>908799>gookclick isn't even "strategy" it is tacticsQRD on what this even fucking means? Is it the difference between solving problems vs a set formula and doing it fast?
no "starcraft-like" game has ever actually been like starcraft so the whole argument seems kinda moot
There is no such thing as "gookclick". If you hate actually having to think about your actions while things unfold in any sort of time and don't want to git gud, RTS is simply Not For You and you should play chess by mail instead.
>>918039RTS is dead as fuck in case you haven't noticed.
>>918081So what the fuck are the gookclick whiners complaining about? Games from decades ago that they hate?
>>918116Yes? Why not?
>>918116They're trying to explain to autistic man-children why their favourite game genre died in favour of superior games
>>909785>low APM>65So people who complain about high APM have high APM themselves, I see. Meanwhile I have 10 EAPM in AOE2 and I know I'm merely shit at the game.
>>918039Real strategy is set in motion months or years in advance not miliseconds.
>>918334It's the same with RTS games. You don't come up with your strategy on the fly (unless you're really bad), you develop and refine it while playing multiple matches.
>>918372This is why your shitty genre was replaced by Mobas, the conceit of the genre didn't match the reality of the games while for Mobas it matched perfectly. You're using the same control scheme so you've got no excuses about UI.
>>918495You have zero clue what you're talking about. MOBAs are literally the same when you get to a non-clowney MMR. You have optimal hero compositions and item build orders decided before starting a match.
>>918531So you can't read
I made it to diamond in SC2 with an ~100 APM average. Tbh you only need high APM if you are competing at the highest ranks. OP is just bad at the strategy part and is blaming the APM “requirements”
>>918495What is the conceit of the moba genre
>>918549The conceit of a strategy game is that you are a general commanding his forces, the gameplay reality was that you micromanage retards holding guns so you can get them to dodge slow projectiles they are too dumb to dodge themselves.The conceit of a Moba is that you are fighting in an arena, it makes much more sense for you to dodge slow projectiles in this setting as opposed to a "real time strategy" where you would have to be giving 200 commands a second.
>>918495>>919235>mobafag thinks micro is bad, therefore shills for a genre with obsessive levels of micro?????'shit on my face is good so long as the person shitting on my face is like, OBVIOUS about it, gosh'
>>918546>I made it to diamond in SC2 with an ~100 APM average. Tbh you only need high APM if you are competing at the highest ranks>100 APM>Not high What are you smoking? Where doing 100 actions per minute is not considered high?
>>909670>20apm vegetableswhy yes i remember how napoleon famously won his battles by issuing 60 orders per minute
>>919291You're a retard if you think that all strategy games should aim to recreate real life warfare. If you want that - play wargames.
>>908799>Another shitter cope threadNow that's tiresome
I always found this mentality insane. Okay, you're bad at RTS games, you don't want to get better at RTS games, and you don't even like RTS games. That's fine. Not every genre is for everyone. I personally don't give a shit about shooters. But I don't seethe about people who like shooters and who are good at shooters and I don't complain about how shooter games are based around who can shoot better. Where the hell do all these mentally deranged freaks come from, and why do they seethe so much about RTS games? You like building comfy villages? Just play a citybuilder my dude, there's lots of great citybuilders out there, Pharaoh, Caesar III, Zeus, Emperor, then there's modern day games of the genre like Banished. Or you just want to take command of a big blob and hurl it against the big AI blob and stomp them? Just play Total War games in battle mode or something. I genuinely do not understand this ridiculous self-entitled mentality. Like imagine if I were to go to a shooter game thread and demanded aimbot and to have everyone move at crawling speed, I'd be seen as a troll and outright ignored. That's literally what """gookclick""" haters want for RTS games, to literally both remove Real Time (muh APM) and Strategy (muh build order) aspects of it. So what's even left? What kind of "RTS" game do you people even want?
>>919565REAL strategy not ADHD spamming gookclick autism seizure korean carpal tunnel syndrome APM "strategy".General Eisenhower wasn't issuing new orders every milisecond.
>>919661Turn based already exists. If you hate mechanical demands so much go play one of those.
>>919565they want real time wargame with city building without artificially inflated required actions per minutes.
>>919688this sounds to me like "I don't want direct control of my units"which is of course fine, but why does it need to be real time then?you should play dominions 5, its a game with real time combat where you set your units tactics before the battle happens and you can't give them orders during, its a turn based game otherwise so it should be more your speed
>>919688>real time wargame with city buildingBut it doesn't compute.
>>919688The only way to eliminate the advantage of higher apm would be to artificially constrain it. At an easily achievable number like 50 or so. Something tells me this wouldn't be anyone's idea of fun.
>>919715because looking how things change in real time is more fun than clicking "next turn"
>>919730so you want a game with very little control so that you can comfortably watch things change in real time without having to stress about micromanagement?sounds like you want a slow paced city builder instead of a wargame, have you tried banished? maybe stronghold for the economic missions?
>>919735shit, I should've recommended majesty too, but that might be a little too fast paced on the more difficult missions
>>919743majesty is great, already played through a lot of missions, stronghold too. banished is a nice city builder, but it's just a city builder.the only problem with them is that they are short and dead and the moment you finish them, you have nothing more.
>>919750>the only problem with them is that they are short and dead and the moment you finish them, you have nothing more.the problem every single player game hassadly any versus multiplayer game invites competition, in which people will do their best to squeeze out every advantage they can to win regardless of the type of game unless you're specifically playing in a casual setting where nobody thinks that winning mattersnaturally this means that if the game is real time, people will act as fast as possible to maximize their advantage moment-to-moment, so if you don't like this then you either have to hope that people will make more single player games, or play turn based games instead
>>919266100 apm is decently good, anyone can easily get to it through muscle memory.just because it's a decent APM doesn't mean its "high" lmao. if ur not physically handicapped its a baseline expectation. 100 APM is what you achieve if you have good macro with minimal micro and if that's too high for you then you have physical issues that need to be addressed
>>908799You think gookclick killed strategy? Wait until you experience 3 button click. Coming soon.
>>919764even if people will try to be as most as efficient, if game was built on foundation which minimizes amount of actions per minute, it will be much more tolerable - I launched starcraft the other day and sheer amount of not interesting things which i was forced to do just because game was designed to require constant flow of actions almost every second was irritating. another option for longevity of a game is supporting it, providing comfortable mod tools so community could create more content. majesty has some modding but it's very limited. i am not even sure if mods for stronghold exist at all.
>>919828outside of limiting what the player is able to do, how would you minimize the apm "requirement" of whatever game while keeping people from being better with higher apm anyway?
>>919832designing game actions in such way that you don't need to constantly use them.for example: macro. instead of constructing workers/army/supply by choosing every building/control group yourself, you could set percentage of budget you want to spend on workers/army/supply which is then automatically spent on constructing workers/army/supply - you could tweak it, but it will be already less demanding.majesty or something like hoi3's oob offer a nice way to reduce units micro (but i wish it had area selection for reward flags).
>>919861that sounds like you want econ to have a much smaller role in the game if the spending isn't down to the wire constantly, and you would still have to micromanage those set percentages so you aren't wasting money on things you don't need at the moment, which is no different than clicking "make unit" yourselfperhaps you would have to add something like a "keep x army at y units unless resources fall below z" menu but again you would have to be constantly changing that to adapt to the current situation of the gameand majesty would be an example of limiting what the player can do, since you can only indirectly control what your units are doing at any given time
Has any of the coper that complains about gooklickers played Graviteam Tactics ? Because it sounds exactly like what you want but I never see anyone talking about it.
>>919247Yes, micro is good depending on the genre. How many people do you see complaining about "micro" in action games?
>>919235i dunno if the problem is that your units will eat a slow projectile if you don't move them. that seems like a really narrow thing to take issue with desu. the issue, and this is pretty subjective if it's really much of an issue, is that RTS games often revolve more around tactics than "strategy" strictly speaking, at least while you're in a game, and that with perfect control over your units and production it creates an extremely high mechanical skill ceiling. the result being that people who are good at staying on top of their shit will eat up an opponent who in theory has a better grasp of how units interact and a better strategy. starcraft is of course the finest example, where some nerd who reads teamliquid all day and scouts and builds unit counters and tries to come up with cunning little strategies will get blown out every single time by a dude with good macro who can build way more dragoons. that's what complaints about "gookclick" revolve around. theory nerd feels cheated that someone who has excellent unit control can bowl over him without any real theory besides build orders and whatnot. the only way to "fix" this would be to automate huge portions of the game, limit apm, or reduce economy and base building. or you know, turn based.mobas are plenty abstract if you ask me. at least as much as RTS games. the whole process of laning and exactly what objectives are most important and when they should be pursued is infamously obtuse. new players are horrible at knowing how to actually win the game. they roam around the map and hunt for kills and get in teamfights at really bizarre times because the real metrics for victory are abstract. this is at least as unintuitive as anything an RTS has to offer. i don't see how moba games supposedly live up to their concept better. the term "moba" itself is fucking stupid anyway. unreal tournament is also a moba if we interpret that term literally. wow arenas too.
>>908799what does even "gookclick" mean? is it "all games OP is bad at"?
>>919661General Eisenhower's gameplay would be closer to a visual novel with zero interaction with the front itself. Do you really want gameplay like this?>>919688City building is not base building. For city building there's a whole different subgenre. For "real wargame" you have, well, Wargame, for example.
>>920383>micro is only good if it means I can ragequit over someone else's bad micro in my heckin team based gameWhy are MOBAfags like this? You're basically just masochists and faggots. Post your thigh highs.
>>920448>being a CO is just le heckin visual novelDo gookclickers really think military strategy is just a binary choice between four options presented in set scenarios with colorful anime girls? God I feel sad for all of you. No wonder you're destined to go trans.
Well yea, it's pretty common knowledge that gookclickers ruined the RTS market.
If there's any argument to be made about APM is that game popularity and ease overshadows to an extent desires of game makers to innovate because breaking from a formula is a risk.But really, degradation aside, strategy games are niche.Really intellectually complex games with an utterly extreme amount of options and time to use them would require specific game design, not everyone can handle it or is smart to appreciate it.And you need to make them first, which requires specific comprehension of the matter in question, and with proper design and ergonomics preferably, and art, and sounds, and computer optimization, and so on.
Any kind of competitive is garbage.Build orders are inherently not fun.Yes, I'm a turtle, how could you tell.
>>919661>issuingYou do realize that in the future (well, already) it's something that can be done?
>>909672No, it is not a pinnacle at all.And video game representations of grand strategy aren't quite the real thing.
I call Starcraft especially Starcraft 2 an arcade game. It’s like candy crush.I’m not at all surprised it became popular in Korea. They like those sort of games.
>>920526Well, it is a good game.
I never get tired of watching spergs sperging about APM. It’s so simple a child could understand; the game is in real time, so real-time speed and reflexes are a factor. Some people are just faster than others, you don’t have to sperg out because you can’t play fast and lose to faster players, just play in your 100 apm league and be happy lol.
>>920448>General Eisenhower's gameplay would be closer to a visual novel with zero interaction with the front itself. Do you really want gameplay like this?There's a lot more to the role of a commander than you realize. The speed at which you can take in information, determine what the opponent is doing, formulate altered plans and execute is really important.Commanders and generals do a lot more than press a 'push front' button.
>>919882yes, there are still will be people who will manage things better, who will adjust their actions fasterbut it's not my problem, it's okay to have people who play better, act faster and win. my problem is that you simply can't play rts like starcraft/warcraft/aoe if you don't want to build every individual supply home on your own, if you don't want to micro units, if these basic game mechanics irritate you. these games are virtually unplayable if you don't press buttons constantly, while with things i suggested, you could play game and have fun even if you are adjusting things once in few minutes.give me order of battle for units with ability to set goals to each and give me macro budgeting while game will move builders and marines on it's own and i could have fun even when losing to everyone at lowest rank.
NOOOOOOOOOO THAT'S NOT TRVE RTS TRVE RTS IS MY AUTISTIC IDEA OF BEING LITERALLY NAPOLEON AND HAVING 18TH CENTURY COMMUNICATION DELAYSYou fuckers need to go outside unironically
>>920611>You'll own nothing, and be happy'no'
>>920700Why are GSGfags sperging so hard about this concept? Hatred for micro goes back a long ways, it was one of the founding tenants that SupCom was designed on. You babbies act like this is the first time you've ever heard micro hate. Probably because it is your first time. http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/supreme-commander/631678p1.html>The first was my realizing that although we call this genre "Real-Time Strategy," it should have been called "Real-Time Tactics" with a dash of strategy thrown in. The goal with Supreme Commander was to really deliver the strategy, by opening up the game to an enormous theatre of war, with some incredible, never-seen-before Super Units, that absolutely require the player to think strategically before attempting to deploy them into the field.You retards pretend like this is a new criticism by zoomers, in reality it's an old criticism by boomers, and you're the zoomers who have been raised on Paradox games and SCII to think that your idea of the strategy game is the only idea of the strategy game. It's not. It never has been. Seethe and dilate about it, like your types like to put it.
>>920708What?Why are you bringing GSGs into this when we're talking about RTS? Are you having a stroke, anon? Can you smell burnt toast?
>>920711>n-no, I'm not here for the GSG threads, I-I promiseCan't address my facts, huh? That's okay, I remember being underage too.
>>920718>You're mad! You have to be upset! Seethe at what I'm posting!Your ideal game doesn't exist and likely will never, because faggots like you don't even play games.
>>920708It was wrong then and it's wrong now, nigger
>>920766>>920729Typical Paradoxbabby whining at criticism they don't understand and can't care to understand. Go back to your three buttons threads, I'm done with you.
>>920847Criticism that makes no sense*
>>920393My problem is that my immersion is shattered because I'm not really commanding an army, I'm spam clicking constantly to do anything in the game.It's fine in Mobas because it makes total sense to be twitchy, it's a game about arena fighting after all. My point was that even though Mobas and RTS both share the same UI, which genre gets constant complaints about micro? Both are equally micro intensive yet one is mocked for it.
>>920853The asterisk goes before the correction, sweetie.
>>920893MOBAs should be mocked for excessive micro, it only doesn't because the fanbase is pure cancer and doesn't care.
So called "gookclick" has its place in competitively driven RTS and in general is good for the genre.But In singleplayer/coop deterministic types of real time strategy like tower defense games, I dislike when it is heavily emphasized. In these deterministic games you probably already thought up a plan in advance, so executing actions quickly has little to do with how fast you think and how you react to stimuli but rather literally how fast you can execute the inputs.
>>910501Imagine being this handicapped good lord go outside
>>920893fair enough. personally my immersion is not shattered because i recognize the quirks of apm to just be game mechanics. when im playing quake my immersion isn't shattered when i rocket jump despite that being unrealistic. in an rts i play as a kind of omnipotent force that has total control of an entire army, of course it won't perfectly resemble being a real commander.my point is just that mechanical demands, both macro and micro, ultimately stem from player control. unless you throttle the amount of commands a player can execute in a given period of time, or you simply take away control, you are going to have mechanical demands in a real time environment. maybe a game that does those things would be interesting, but it would come at a cost i think. dawn of war 2 eliminated base building and most economic considerations in favor of just the fighting, which made it very micro intensive. i suppose a game that wanted to eliminate both macro and micro would automate almost all of the production and fighting and the ai would interpret a general strategy at the beginning of a match/campaign. that better simulates the experience of being a general, although it might not be super fun.
>>921859>So called "gookclick" has its place in competitively driven RTS and in general is good for the genre.It's not though, the genre's been stagnant due to lack of innovation over the last ten years. It's all just remasters and remakes pretending to be sequels with minute balance tweaks to appeal to APMfags. You're actually killing the genre.
>>921951you sound like you're just mad that you're a minority of an already very niche and unprofitable marketthe only reason the genre is "alive" at all still is because people keep buying those remasters and remakes because they don't feel the same way about "gookclick"
>>920701Right, that’s the same. Keep on sperging our lel.
> there could be a real time strategy with detailed battle and economy systems, where you could issue a few commands in the whole match to play it, but because developers cater to huge crowd of people who like to constantly click things or they will become bored and cry about game playing itself we will never have it.> uhn, economy? so you want a city builder????> u should play turn based> hehehe, you just complain about sucking in starcraft, git gut, look, some grandmaster who played game for 100000000 hours can play it with !only! 60 apm> *garbagetoria 3 reference*
>>920708>you think that your idea of the strategy game is the only idea of the strategy gameNice projecting, retard. So is that why you and others keep making this gay thread?
>>922200>developers cater to dying genre (?) that was killed itself by "gookclickers" in the first placeexplain how this idea makes any sense
>>922207Anyone who unironically says that it's dead is not very observant. It's much worse - it's an alive rotten something in the "Real Time Strategy" room swarmed with gross insects which keep eating themselves and attacking everyone who dares to say that he doesn't like that it is the dominant thing in this room, not something hiding in the corner.
>>921902There are other ways to reduce micro, total war used to do it by adding a delay between you giving an order and your units following the order. Rome TW ecmven has a general mode where you could only view the battle from the generals pov, which was amazing for immersion.Zero k is another example of a game that reduces micro, your units will usually auto skirmish and if the enemy projectile are slow enough your units will attempt to dodge the shots automatically too.The RTS genre needs a non-esports game, otherwise it'll stay super niche.
>>908799Just play Dominions 5
>>920691Holy fuck this is sad. You get mega ass-blasted that the game is too quick for you and you propose alternatives which you then immediately say wouldn’t fix any of the issues you are complaining about. How the hell do you even function? So far all I can understand from your rambling is that you don’t like building things and using your army. Okay dude, fine - but that sounds like a different game entirely and you would still end up in the exact same place with fast-playing, competitive people performing the best plays which get copied by everyone else. So in the end what the fuck would be the point?
>>922108>you're just mad because the genre is dying!This is the equivalent of cutting off your nose to spite your face, anon.
>>922219It just seems like it's Paradoxfags and ASSFAGGOTS who want RTSes to be a corpse
>>920847I think you're confused. I wouldn't touch parashit with a ten foot pole because I am not a tranny. That doesn't mean I believe in the bullshit concept of "gookclick".
>>922271> it doesn't fix anythingDisable autoattacks, disable workers automatically moving between resources and storage, disable attack-move, disable pathfinding, disable control groups, disable production queues and ask yourself if you are having fun and try to understand the difference. Maybe then you will understand why people are asking for high level commands in rts and why they are creating these threads.
>>922200>there could be a real time strategy with detailed battle and economy systems, where you could issue a few commands in the whole match to play it,lol?so you basically want to say "computer, defeat the opponent" at the start of the game and then sit back and watch as the match plays out for the next 20-30 minutes?
>>920893Strategy games are quite dynamic, and are focused on that intellectual action.Much like in actual war, you aren't there to drool over explosions.
>>919266In a videogame context that's a very unremarkable figure. I bet you average that amount of apm in plenty of games. Tracking apm is weird and unnecessary though so really who even cares.
>>922295So you are saying to understand your point of view I’d need to play an RTS that is somehow even more basic than dune or Warcraft 1? Okay, thanks for confirming that you are retarded, but I’ll try to help you out anyway. So if you make a RTS where the only decisions are ‘high level’ ones, how does it actually avoid becoming a competition of who issues the optimal commands in the fastest time? And if it doesn’t solve that, then why even do it?
Okay, Gooks like >>922351 don't want to strain their imagination. But I, humble and retarded person, will help them.1) Issuing good enough orders in the fastest time and gaining advantage because of it is not bad.2) If you remove all quality of life in RTS, then you will be left in a game in which just collection of resources is already a very demanding task. People who can command ten units and collect resources at same time will be considered as gods among men, they will be at the top of the ladder. When someone manages to control a group of 20 units at same time, twitch chat will be overflown with "poggers" emotes. When someone will suggest at a forum to add automation of workers and pathfinding, local zealots will jump at him to explain that he should git gut and that having to pathfind units by yourself is extremely strategic. Sane people will simply avoid it and create threads at /vst/ about what could have been if there was some automation and less forced micro and cry about gigagooks and how strong they are. This example just gives you a perspective on how people attacking these threads look like.3) Let's call a game from 2) as point A. It is the most basic game, it has zero quality of life, and it has the most boring battles. Peak of local strategy is something among lines of spreading your units in a circle so they will all be attacking at the same time. Just doing the most basic things will skyrocket your APM. Let's define C(A) as the cost of some basic strategy like moving an army along some path while scouting surroundings. But even playing the game without making any decision, just following some simple routing like expanding base and supply, building up another resource spot and keeping up a production of new workers will already require constant dance of fingers on keyboard and mouse M(A). This game is an extreme, most absurd example.
>>9224014) Then we have current RTS, point B, a lot of quality of life features are implemented, in some RTS you can even turn on autoproduction of units. C(B) is lower, it is possible for players to implement some strategy, even if they are not clicking like osu players, M(B) is much lower than M(A) too, routine can be dealt with but still requires constant attention. It leads to much more interesting games being possible at all levels, you can sacrifice some group, you can lure enemies to dangerous grounds, you can launch a surprise attack. Many people are fine with it, they do not mind M(B) and C(B), some even enjoy constant clicking and can't even think that it can be reduced. Top level players can do much more than they would be able to in imaginary game A. But people who create these threads are clearly not satisfied by these action costs, you still need to pay quite a lot. If you simply don't want to be behind your opponent, you already need to pay M(B) clicks per second. Playing a game at low level consists of learning routing and practising spending of M(B).5) And then there is a potential development C, which we will never see. If M(C) is close to zero and some simpler strategies are already implemented in code to lower A(C), you could spend most of your actions on things which are interesting while the computer handles the rest. You, Mr. Gook, can continue microing units to win local fight with tactics and micro your "macro", but it will be not as effective as spending your attention on management of larger brushes. Lowering the cost of playing the game yet again will give opportunity for much more advanced strategies at all levels of ladder and decrease the importance of mastery in tactics.
>>922401>sane people>create threads
>>922403How is C not just SupCom? I haven't tried out Planetary Annihilation but maybe it's what you're looking for also. Latest title in the "too much tactics, not enough strategy" line of critique for the blizz/westwood school of RTS.
>>922401Sane people who want real-time strategy games without the micro/execution aspect play wargames. Only schizos like you spam paragraphs demanding RTS games to suddenly switch the genre.You will never be a strategist.
>>922411Since when TA style games don't use micro?
>>922415The micro demands are so low compared to other RTS. They have a ton of smart attack options too. Do you want no unit control whatsoever? That has to be automated too?
>>922424I'm not him, so I know not. I just found the idea questionable.As far I remember, at least in TA, you have to manage things well.
>>922403Even in the hypothetical scenario of a game like C existing you would still get more value the more you actively do. The “gookclickers” would still do the same broad stroke strategies but combined with high APM micro and still be able to dominate because of that. RTS will always be twitchy. That’s just the nature of the genre.
>>922431You can just word it differently for him, they can issue more tasks.
>>922426You do, although the idea of an RTS that places no demands on the player as far as maintaining their army and executing their plan seems like one that just plays itself. Surely some input is required and it might get frantic in the heat of battle. We're back to the turn based thing if you want no mechanical skill whatsoever.
>>908799>I'm an idiot who is bad at video gamesI agree.
If you hate RTS that much, just play Total war
>I want to play a simulator that isn't a simulator and call it an RTSWhat the fuck is this autism? Thank God companies don't listen to you.
>>922451> calling real time strategy game as real time strategy gamewoah, how dare he
>>922462Stop falseflagging as other people. Nobody holds this autistic ideal that RTS should actually be a deep strategic simulator wargame genre.
>>922466> interface and user experience improvements turn RTS into deep strategic simulator wargameNice, I should write it down.
>>908799Learn what strategy and tactics means, and stop asking for tactical games instead of strategies.You are fucking retarded.Oh and btw there are incredible low apm games like coh2 but you will be filtered out of those and would invent new excuses because your problem is not clicking or being stupid. Your problem is being a loser with defeatist mindset who wants to play competitive games.
>>922477Did you say something about UI and UX improvements in your multi post autistic screed? Didn't read lol
ITT: People writing actual arguments get reacted to by anime-spamming Paradox faggots who know only three phrases
>>922544ITT: this nigger bumps his own thread so he can be visible
>>921951This gookclickers killed rts by redefining rts as “game like StarCraft”Then when a company went to a publisher saying they wanted to make a rts, the publisher would say is it a Starcraft game? They’d say no. Then the publisher would say I’m not interested.
>>922587>source: the voices told me so
>>922520How about you learn. Tactics is squad level strategy is armies.A rts is a real-time game where you control an army.Kys you dumbarse zoomer cunt.
>>922596>Tactics is squad level strategy is armies.So not only you're a clueless retard, but you also refuse to learn.https://ndupress.ndu.edu/JFQ/Joint-Force-Quarterly-78/Article/607625/waffles-or-pancakes-operational-versus-tactical-level-wargaming/
>>922601You are retarded. Firstly to make it easy for you video games have been calling squad games “tactics” games for years.And are you going to dip us the that an rts us a real-time game where you control an army.That is the point of strategy in warfare.
>>922601Get an education you moronhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactic_(method)
>>922615Dispute* that an rts is*
>>908799The only thing that I can agree with is how fucking tiresome your spam is.
>>922601I’ll explain it to you.A strategy is saying you are going to flank an enemy.A tactic is saying your soldiers flanking are going to throw grenades before attacking and feint if they are attacked.
Why not just wargame or play tabletop?
>>922628It can be summed up as the overall plan vs the things you do during the battle to win.A plan vs army drills.
>>922641Yep and when people ask for more strategy in their rts they don’t care exactly what their units are doing but where their units are on the battlefield in relation to their army and the enemy.More grand manoeuvres and strategic decisions as opposed to minding individual units because their pathing is stupid or pressing a button to throw a grenade, they should just fucking do it themselves.
>>922641Strategy is what the general is concerned with tactics is what the soldiers are concerned with.
>>922615>>922619>>922628Didn't read your ESL screeching. All the info is right here, either educate yourself or remain ignorant.
>>922641>>922646>>922651This is exactly why Total War is the only decent rts. You can actually use real strategy concepts from the real world to win.
>>922654Shut the fuck up you Dunning Kruger moron.
>>922656Keep malding. You will never be a strategist.
>>922658You will never reproduce
jannies fucking delete this shit thread plsthanx
When a game detects a gookclicker it should punish them in some way for it. Call it anti-gook click technology.
why do these threads always attract the worst schizos on the board?
>>922677Because they're made by the worst schizos on this board. It all boils down to people being better at video games at them, so they want SOMETHING to be done to bring the overperformers down to their level. Like communism.
This topic is interesting and all, but I want to bring attention to a larger problem. NoLifters in the chess community.Chess as you all know is a game about strategy, and is played on a board where you move pieces around strategically. And you also know about the Deadlifting contest that happens just before every match before you can even participate. Anyone who cannot deadlift 200kgs is barred from participating in the game of chess.Unfortunately, there are communist infiltrators we call Nolifters who say that Chess should be about "le strategy" and other such communist nonsense. They claim that just removing the "arbitrary" barrier will be healthier for the game of Chess as it brings in new blood. Well I don't mind at all that the only new chess games that were released recently are all dead on arrival, that the genre is filled with remakes and that Checkers is far more popular than my favourite game genre.
>>920529Nah, it's like RA3's retarded hillbilly or inner city cousin. And RA3 itself is "what if we made C&C3, but braindead" genius moment.
>>922827you know chess has time limits right?you have to think fast enough to play it even though its a turn based gameand it sure sounds like you want a turn based game instead of a real time game from this post anyway
>>922656Brap schizo, is that you?
>>922840I've been pretty happy so far with all the new turn based strategy games, I was just trying to explain to fans of a dying genre why it's a niche and dying genre and how to fix it.
>>922863you know this seems to be a really common opinion from these threads"your favorite genre is dying, you could broaden the appeal by trying to cater to people who don't even like your genre, like me"
>>922863thank you for your concern, I have fun playing this dead genre every day and I will continue to do so
>>922863>It's niche!>Don't worry, you can fix it by turning your genre into wargames, one of the most niche boomer type genres imaginable!
Damned nolifters, trying to remove from board games the most important element of lifting and turn them into hand moving games, one of the most niche genres imaginable. Even if they will remove lifting, lifters will still be able to lift figures and throw dices better and faster than them.
>>908799Another one of these retarded fucking threads?Do you think in actual military strategy irl the opposing side gives you time to think? Real time is a key component of strategy; attention is just as important a resource as anything else.
>>922918You got distracted from the game and forgot to inject larvae, kite knight with horse archer and reseed your farms, don't be like these spergs, go back as soon as possible to participate in actual military strategy. Opposing side will not give you time to think!
>>922926I’m not sure what you’re trying to articulate
>>922619Why am I not surpraised ignorant retard like yourself is incapable of using even the wiki?https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~tpilsch/INTA4803TP/Articles/Three%20Levels%20of%20War=CADRE-excerpt.pdfI will break it down further for you because obviously 2 and a half pages are too much for braindead monkey nigger like yourselflevels of command are>strategicalGlobal plan of waging the war which is presented in sufficiently large scale games like hoi4.>operationalSeveral consecutive battle plans aimed at achieving global objective in a theater of war. Those plan employ several army groups. Again, its a level of global strategies. Maybe you can amount large total war battles to those.>tacticalLiterally everything else. Stalingrad was a tactical battle. Startcraft deals with small scale tactical battles. All rtses are played on tactical levels because operational or strategic levels are too big and include too many units.So, you, stupid fucking bitch complaining about being unable to outplay your opponent tactically.Brainlet.
>>922944> using military science terminology when talking about games> calling someone a brainlet
>>922910This, nolifters are just jealous that us Lifters can play chess and they can't.
>>922964What kind of omegaretarded cope is that?What terminology should I use when talking about strategy and tactic?Some sort of made up retarded duning-kruger bullshit?
You know what really is cool in RTS? When infantry can do more than just click and shoot, when they can pick up items and have stats.
>>922967>>922910>shit tier analogyYou'd be bodied if you played chess and you know it. It's not only your hand that's slow, but your mind.
>>922977this, apm is a mental barrier, not a phisical one
>>922863The only rts that are alive are multiplayer/esport focused ones. Singleplayer rts die immediately after being released because they have no replay-ability.
>>922971>>922964I'm too lazy to understand exactly what you two are shitflinging about, but tactics in a vidya context means commanding a number of troops whereas strategy means basebuilding is included so you can build new troopsNow if you were talking about wargames instead of RTS/RTT it would be different
>>922971Military science can't be applied to games almost at all, because it makes a lot of assumptions which only exist in real life warfare. Maybe only to the most rigorous of simulations. Just read your definitions:> Global plan of waging the war which is presented in sufficiently large scale games like hoi4.When you start a game all war you have is a war at this concrete map. Nothing outside this map happens or even exists.> Several consecutive battle plans aimed at achieving global objective in a theater of war. Yet again, your whole theater is a map itself. You don't have any objective which is more global than winning your current opponent.
>>920651Tell me which part of this isn't already present in modern RTS games?
>>922679t. doesn't know what communism is
>>909016>>909014>>909013You didnt really prove anything. In a matchup between too equally good strategists the one with higher APM will win. APM shouldnt be a factor at all.
>>923167In order for it to not be a factor at all, the game can't be real time.
>>923167>APM shouldnt be a factor at all.nah, it's fine
>>922897Really, all these wannabe caesars and napoleons should be elated that wargames exist. They're so accurate that real, actual generals use them to hone their strategic decision making. Stop trying to ruin starcraft and go play what you allegedly want.
>>922990>strategy means basebuildingYou have to be over 18 and over 100 iq to use this board kiddo.
>>923361In the context of vidya genre names, yes it does
Ok apm clicker babies, if pro clockers are so good at strategy how come none are hired by the military?
>>923362No it doesn’t. Some of my favourite rts have zero basebuilding.Basebuilding is a crutch for casual gamers.
>>923364>Some of my favourite rts have zero basebuildingThose are called RTT not RTS, kid
>>923363Because irl studying strategy has zero to do with how twitchy your fingers are. It’s years of reading and studying history and practical life experience.
>>923363The geneva convention forbids high APM plays in warfare
>>923365All my favourite rts were called rts back in the 1990s.“RTT” is a erroneous, revisionist term by you post 2000 retard kids.A RTS is simply a “real time” strategy game. A “tactics” game is something like Fallout tactics or jagged alliance or xcom.You aren’t reinventing the wheel kid, just parroting dumb comments from game idiot journos.
>>923367Yeah you got fucking rekt retard. The fact is “apm” means jack shit in strategy. Never has.It’s purely a thing exploded in Starcraft, because Starcraft is a bad strategy game.
>>923362That's only a part of it. Unit compositions, spare resource management, scouting, terrain management, etc. all are important. Structures are just a stationary variant of units.
>>923371>A “tactics” game is something like Fallout tactics or jagged alliance or xcom.Thus, RTT being a different genre because those aren't real-time. Really having trouble keeping up, eh?>You aren’t reinventing the wheel kidExactly, tactics games have always been like strategy but without basebuilding
>>923374But we are talking about real time games you low iq mong. Not turnbased.Ie rts.You have Dunning Kruger and are illiterate.
It is differentiated from real-time strategy gameplay by the lack of classic resource micromanagement and base or unit building, as well as the greater importance of individual units and a focus on complex battlefield tacticsAlso I'm 31
>>923375>But we are talking about real time games you low iq mongI'm not the one who brought up XCOM out of nowhereTactics is strategy without basebuilding. RTT has always been a genre, don't care how angry you get about itKeep posturing
>>923362The perfect rts model has zero basebuilding and purely concerns managing an army.Basebuilding is for casuals, faggots that like playing sims.
>>923379>The perfect rts model has zero basebuildingThat exists, it's called RTT
>>923376You are retarded>>923378Because the point retard was all those games have you managing a squad, the point was the scale. You idiotic child.
>>923381Revisionist vandalism of the genre by idiots like you.
>>923384>You are retardedCan't refute the definition, eh? Thanks for conceding>Because the point retard was all those games have you managing a squadCool>talk about real time games>point out RTT is RTS without basebuilding>XCOM is a tactics game!>yes, but it's not real time>YES BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT REAL TIME GAMES
>>923389Myth: The Fallen Lords is a 1997 real-time tactics video game developed by Bungie for Windows and Mac OS. :)>b-but the developer at the time called it something else reeeeeeeeOkay I guess Diablo is an RPG then
>>923390See>>923389 stupid zoomer.>>923391Read the box not wiki retard. You are a Marxist trying to revise history to suit your low iq opinion.
>>923391>wiki fagWiki is edited by retards like you. The game is clearly marketed and sold as a “real time strategy game”. It was reviewed as such at the time and referred to as such.“RTT” is a revisionist term you mentally retarded dumbshit zoomer.You can even read on wiki where this term comes from, it comes from game journalists trying to reinvent the term rts.
>>923391You will never be a real rts player gook
>>923389Genre terms are often bungled at points of innovation. When doom came out it was just an action game. When other FPS games came out they called them doomclones. Later on, we took a step back and realized this new style of game is sufficiently different to warrant a new term. By your logic, doom isn't an FPS because they didn't call it that at release.
>>923396I cannot even imagine the retardation required to>say only what a developer calls their own game matters>bring up politics for no reason>accuse someone else of being a zoomer even though you came here post /pol/ invasion>then cry about IQLast (you) because even if you're not baiting, it's just sad to see someone be this stupidRTT is RTS without basebuilding>>923402>release MOBA>put on the box that it's a groundbreaking RTS/RPG hybrid>well it's sold that way, that must mean it's not only true, it also means no such game has existed before because the box called it "groundbreaking"I don't care what developers call their games, I care what the games are actually like
>>923390Real strategy games don’t have any basebuilding like myth, Wargame, total war.These are REAL rts, not your baby tier Starcraft and c&c clones that revolve around rushing or turtling and harvesting minerals.
Total War is like the poster child for TBS coupled with RTT battlesPretty cute to use it as an example
>>923408>it doubles downYou are one special retard. You are wrong you dumb gook. Just like your mother was wrong for having you.
>>923406That’s not how this works at all. There was an entire period between the 90s and early 00s where the rts genre was established. The term means something in English esls.It means real time, as opposed to turn base strategy. It’s a broad term encompassing more than just starcraft
>>923413It’s a turn based campaign with a rts battles you mentally retarded zoomer The closest experience to actual rts in the market.
Whoops I mistypedrtt*
>>923417That is how this works. New terms come into circulation and are retroactively applied to older titles. I refer you back to doom. Is it an FPS? They didn't have that term when it was released.
>>923406Doom wasn’t called a doom clone on release you low iq idiot. It was called a first person shooter.
>>923421No this isn’t how this works, since “RTT” isn’t factually correct and is stupid like you.>is doom an fpsYes? Jfc you are low iq! Get off this site.
No it wasn't, it was called an adventure gameDoom is now the same genre as Myth because muh developer say so
>>923428Learn to read. "FPS" didn't exist at the time. Doom was an action game. None of the original marketing called it an FPS because that term didn't exist yet.
>>923432Well, the game's marketing in this case doesn't count because it would be ridiculous to deny FPS is a genreBut only the marketing counts in other cases because otherwise I would be wrong
>>923430You aren't even trying now. Maybe RTT is a stupid term, but not by your reasoning.
>>923431It was called first person and a shooter.There was a game before it called Wolfenstein zoom child.Likewise marketed as a first person shooter.https://www.mobygames.com/game/wolfenstein-3d___That’s what first person shooter means it’s descriptive. It’s a first person perspective game. Where you shoot things.Listen to me. You are not smart, you are far under the normal average for intelligence.
Still waiting for that proof that either Doom or Wolfenstein were marketed as FPS on releaseWolfenstein is actually a VR game because muh back of the box
>>923432How was doom called a doom clone at the time? You are reading off wiki and an idiot.There were fps before it.
>>923437Find me a piece of period marketing that uses the term "first-person shooter" for wolfenstein 3d or doom. If the term was commonly used, no one would refer to FPS games made in the wake of doom as "doomclones". They would just call them FPS.
kek the nigger somehow misread "other games were called doom clones" as "doom was called a doom clone" and keeps banging on about itGo back to /pol/How come no game was ever called metroidvania on the back of the box bros? Does the genre not exist?????
>>923439You struggle deeply with the basics of language.
>>923438It’s marketed as a first person game that is a shooter…It’s a conjunction you imbecilic esl.
Myth was marketed as a real time game where you use tactics.................................it's a conjunction you imbecilic esl (but I am totally a native speaker by the way as everyone can tell)
>>923445The marketing doesn't even mention first person lol. They seem more concerned with you knowing that it was 3D. But I accept your superior reasoning. Wolfenstein and GTA are the same genre because they called themselves 3D action games. Boy am I glad we have native english speakers like you here to clear up issues of terminology.
>>923442Well what was doom called? It was called a fps.All the marketing refers to it as first person game.You are an idiot and tripped over your own retardation.
>>923444Nah you fucked up because you are illiterate and retarded.What was Wolf3d and Doom called?What do you do in these games?Your argument was all these games were called doom clones.
Well what was Myth called? It was called a rtt.All the marketing refers to it as tactics game.You are an idiot and tripped over your own retardation.I look forward to you disproving what I just said with the same scientific rigor you used to pull other generalizations out of your ass
>>923449But that’s wrong retard. All the marketing refers to it as first person
>>923455See>>923389Listen to me. You aren’t as half as smart as you think you are,You are low iq,
>>923452They were called action games by the developers. If you could read, you would see that I only mentioned doom clones in the context of other FPS games at the time. The basic logical connection here, would be that FPS was not a term if the public felt the need to describe them as "doomclones". But I am talking to some idiot croation here and not an English speaker, so you didn't make that connection.
>adventure gameso Doom is the same game as Monkey's Island
Itt Starcraft gooks are shocked they are wrong.You aren’t real rts players. I’ll go so far as to say Starcraft/c&c babies should be ostracised from the genre. It’s time real rts fans take it back from these cretins
>post Wolfenstein 3D back of the box>THE MARKETING CALLED IT AN FPS!!!>eh? the Wolfenstein 3D box I replied to never mentions FPS anywhere>but that's wrong retard, look at this box of DOOMwhat?
>>923459It doesn't say shooter, so it's in same genre as Myst. Makes perfect sense, since it is an adventure game with a 1st person perspective. Since we can rely only on box blurbs, we are forced to accept this.
This shit thread is still here.If you don't want apm bullshit play turnbased faglords
>>923459That's the back of the collector's edition box, published in 2001 when the term FPS existed. Since it is not the Holy Original Marketing we cannot accept this.
guess poker and chess are not strategical games
>>923477They're turn based tactics
>>923470The term goes back to at least 1993 possibly as far back as 19731973, Imlacs at NASAIt was originally written by Steve Colley (later founder of nCUBE) in 1972–1973 on the Imlac PDS-1's at the NASA Ames Research Center in California. He had written a program for portraying and navigating mazes from a first-person perspective. The maze was depicted in memory with a 16 by 16 bit array. Colley, together with Greg Thompson, and Howard Palmer developed the MazeWars program at NASA in Jim Hart's Computation Division 2nd floor lab. Colley writes:Maze was popular at first, but quickly became boring. Then someone (Howard or Greg) had the idea to put people in the maze. To do this would take more than one Imlac, which at that time were not networked together. So we connected two Imlacs using the serial ports to transmit locations back and forth. This worked great, and soon the idea for shooting each other came along, and the first person shooter was born.So it was used at the time doom was around. Yoy are an idiot.
>>923475The term fps was coined by the person who made the first fps Maze in 1993 at least.
>>923475That’s actually the back of the Aus edition you idiot.
Avalon Hill's 1982 release Legionaire for the Atari 8-bit was a real-time wargame of Romans versus Barbarians with game play reminiscent of the current real-time tactics template, called by one review a "real-time simulation of tactical combat".RTT goes back to 1982 so it's a legit term according to your "argument"
>>923488Sorry friend, but that is a post-hoc description of the game. The section you are quoting is from an interview celebrating the 30th anniversary, so 2003. I wish we could use our brains and describe games and come up with new terms to distinguish them, but that isn't allowed. Contemporary marketing is law. The construction "first person shooter" does not appear on Wolfenstein 3D or Doom's marketing, so we have to file them away with Spider-man 2 and Grand Theft Auto 3 as 3D action games.
>>923470The truth is, the term “fps” was already old by the time of doom.So marketers wanted to make their state of the art game sound more amazing, so continually referred to their fps as virtual reality games, or first person combat, “first person adventure”, “first person firepower”To differentiate their games from competition
kek and this is the nigger who cried about muh revisionism
>>923502What game did the developers first describe as first-person shooter? I can't find a linguistic deep dive on the topic but the evidence seems to point to it as emerging in the mid-90s.
>>923510When did developers refer to doom as a doom clone?
>>923497My autism demanded I investigate and Doom wasn't sold retail until 1995. The original advertising doesn't mention first-person. It seems to favor "virtual-reality". Presumably, because FPS wasn't a term at that point. And maybe even in 1995 "first person shooter" hadn't quite entered the vernacular either.
>thread has devolved into a bunch of losers arguing semantics just because someone is salty that something is (according to them) mislabeledboy I sure do love roguelike threads
>>923504You are the revisionist. The original argument was in the 1990s rts games were clearly defined. So were fps, this is a strawman.
>>923523are you retarded
>>923524Electronic Entertainment (Apr, 1994)Action on the PC doesn't get any better than this game of mortal combat in dim corridors. Using its trademark first-person, 3-D perspective, Id’s done one better than Wolfenstein 3D here.Well you are wrong
>>923529You made the post you actual retard.You said before fps they were called doom clones.Ignoring that doom wasn’t even the original.
>>923534I never said that. I said contemporary competitors were called doom-clones. Please demand compensation from your English teachers.
>>923537The term doom clone was well after doom. What was doom called? I can only ask the same question before I have to conclude you are an idiot.
>>923524Here us Wolfenstein in 1992 being called a first person gamePC Games (Nov, 1992)Id Software has taken the Wolfenstein frame and built a wonderful first-person, three-dimensional action game around it. Wolfenstein 3-D is drop-dead gorgeous, outrageous to the ear, stay-up-all-night addictive, and easily the best action game available for the IBM.
>>923524Second page Wolf3d being called first person https://www.cgwmuseum.org/galleries/issues/cgw_121.pdf
>>923498They clearly errored.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzog_ZweiFirst rts is Herzog Zwei
Itt: illiterate esl gooks get completely fucking destroyed.
>>923566And you can see here the rts genre from its inception was a lot more creative and complex than “build base and spam units”>3rd person avatar in game>no base building>objective and logistic focused gameplay This game is the FIRST rts and it’s more akin Myth, Total war, Sacrifice, Wargame etc.The definition rts are basebuilding Starcraft games is a lie and stupidity. Also that the genre is “RTT” another fat brained soiboi lie. It was coined rts.
>>923544I don't know how much more clearly I can state my point so I give up on you.
>>923554These all still call it an action game rather than a first person shooter
>>923577What was doom called? I’ll answe because your mouth is full of shit. It was called a fps, first person shoot ‘em up or shooter.
>>923569This sockpuppting is really obvious and sad
>>923579They called it a first person shoot ‘em up.
Imagine being too stupid to enjoy different genres. I enjoy everything from starcraft/supcom up to slower games like hoi/stellaris and even turn based games. Stop being a fucking potato and invest a little time do you stop being a shitter. Even better become an indie dev and make your own rts game. There's a few on steam that are actually pretty damn fun despite being low budget.
>>923584No one cares what you like stfu
>>923580Hellish 3D adventure game
>>923587I care. I care a lot.
>>923592Ok but no one else cares.
Found it.A preview of Doom“doom is first person perspective (scifi) shooter”You lost bitch. Gtfo.
>>923596Well well the zoomer revisionists are btfo once again. Before the game was even released it was called an fps.
>>923598Myth is still an RTT
>>923596Unless the developers call it that it doesn't count. Remember, it has to be on the back of the box.
>>923604>>923463>>923389DescriptionMyth: The Fallen Lords is a Real Time Strategy game which pits the evil Fallen Lords vs humanity.https://www.mobygames.com/game/myth-the-fallen-lords
>>923620>gets btfo>moves the goal postsDevelopers don’t make the promo material that’s the publisher kiddo.The initial false claim was the term “fps” didn’t exist at the time of doom.Here we see that the phrase first person …shooter was used before even doom was released. Unsurprising it’s basic English.You were wrong kid, accept the loss and be quiet.
>>923706Sorry m8, we can't trust journalists to create terms. They are marxists or something. This guy in the preview had good intentions, but he didn't understand the law of genre. Which is that the developer is the word of god. Accordingly, doom is a 3d action game.
>>923717“RTT” was literally made up by game journos. You just self owned yourself.Besides Carmack refers to doom as an fps.
>>923721Right, RTT is rejected for being the invention of journos. Therefore, we must reject "first person perspective shooter" too for being penned by a journo. As the copious box art above demonstrates, they called it many things, virtual reality or a 3D action game, but never a first person shooter. So we must reject it according to the logic that vetoes "RTT". >self owned yourselfThis is the person who calls you ESL lol
>>923725Yet the people that made the genre the creator of Maze and Carmack use fps.Word of advice kid, stop digging. Just stop being retarded and trying to reinvent the wheel. The term is rts.Herzog Zwei is a rts.
>>923737They didn't at the time. A corruption by marxist journos I'm sure. We prioritize box art in this house. And box art dictates that doom isn't an fps. We can't just call old games new terms because we have a term now that better describes them, that would be absurd.
>>922976I know this is sarcastic but I always thought units getting some small buff when they have killed enough units to go up a rank would be cool. Also it’s not really items but if you could outfit units with different Armor/weapons that would be cool too. Like a marine with heavy Armor that moves a bit slower, or a rifle that deals bonus damage to armoured but fires slower.
>>923740You realise you are just making yourself look stupid? Keep digging fool.
>>923752But if I look stupid using the logic of the original argument then that means.... oh no
>>923763Stop having a cry about it no one cares idiot.
>>923763https://www.mobygames.com/game/wargame-european-escalationWargame: European Escalation is a real-time strategy gameKys wiki educated moron
>>923763>>923740>>923725>>923717You have to be over 18 and 100 iq to post here
Why are gookclickers so mentally ill?
I don't hate gookclicks. I just want more slow paced RTS like Kohan.
you niggers can't even agree on what strategy means and you think game devs should take you seriously holy shit
>>923596So genre names are NOT determined by the marketing that the devs put out. They are, in fact, determined by gaming journalists>>923402>You can even read on wiki where this term comes from, it comes from game journalists trying to reinvent the term rts.So RTT is a valid genre since gaming journalists made it up
>>923873Shut up nolifter, we're the real strategy players.
>>924107Why are you so mentally ill lmaoLearn to fucking code and make your own ideal strategy game if it's so easy. Make it so that you're autobanned if you click too fast. Boom, gookclickers gone. I'm sure people will love to play it, and it'll revive le dying genre because there's lots of people with your specific autistic ideal of what an RTS should be!
>>908804>people on reddit have a similar view therefore it's bad
>>920441i guess its "gooklicks=mindless time" sink. recent gaymez are here to occupy ur time while giving you somethink to click on. and it needs to be shallow enough to cater those not gettin gud quickly.
>>924111>RTS iz dying genreSo what the fuck is your argument? If you think that chasing le gookclickers out with "real strategy" won't make the genre popular again what the actual fuck is the point of your meaningless drivel?
>>924125Seethe more, nolifter
>>924130Of course you don't answer. Because you're not a serious person. This isn't a serious complaint. You're just a b8fag.
> reading how people at 2007 were arguing against ability to select multiple buildingsprecious
>>924132Yeah cause you were totally interested in serious discussion>>924125>what the actual fuck is the point of your meaningless drivel?Seethe more
>>924139I was. You gave me no indication of why the hell you're making your arguments in the first place other than to cater to you, as a specific person. This is the cope of someone who doesn't want to actually back up their arguments and throw out non sequiturs like "LE LIFTING CHESS NOLIFTERS XDDDDDDD"
>>924143>I wasGood, you lost then>>924110>ad populumThanks for conceding, nolifter
"i am utterly retarded and will suggest to play turn based games in a thread about real time games""it will be not an RTS anymore, why do you hate RTS?""it will be like watching game playing itself if i will be able to select unlimited amount of units at once""decreasing gookclick will change nothing, you will just spend more time on making high level decisions instead of selecting units""play city builders""real time strategy games are not real time strategy games""real generals would issue orders to every soldier if they could""you are mad because you are bad""you are a minority""you must micro units because it's real time"Real statements made by real population units.
>I like strategizing at my own pace>people played RTS for immersion>RTS genre is dead because of the things I am bad at>focusing on micro alienates the core RTS player-base>apm requirement>too fast to strategize on the fly>I don't feel like an army commander>arcade click-fest>meta bullshit>micro is an unfortunate byproduct of old technical limitations>reflex twitch gameplay>does not fulfill any satisfactory fantasyReal statements made by real population units.
>>924134The more people who initally buy SCII, give it good reviews, good rep by word of mouth and so on the more people you'll have playing it. The longer a very large ammount of people keep playing the game the more new people will join because of that.The more people who play the game the more "competetive" people will try it out. A few of these people will then rise in skill and become top gamers.Perhaps these players themselves don't really care about if the UI is limited or not, that's not the point. The point is that the more players who play in the first place the more likely candidates there are for top gamers.If no one has perfect macro then how does improving the UI (and thus the ability to macro) "dumb down" the game? It will certainly move the ammount of skill/macro to a higher level than BW but does that really matter? I still don't think that it will be humanly possible to achive 100 % perfect macro even with MBS regardless of how pro you are.Just moving the skillbar to the rigth does not dumb the game down and if there is no maxium ammount of skill talking about skill gaps is irrelevant. Especially about a feature that can never help you achive perfect macro in the first place.And I don't see how the burden of proof would only be on us. I've yet to see anyone show me why MBS would dumb down the game. Just saying that it's obvious that it gets easier because you can build 15 zealots in the same time as one does not cut it.Dune II wasn't a "smarter" game than Warcraft, Warcraft wasn't a "smarter" game than Warcraft II and Warcraft II wasn't a "smarter" game than SC.All of these games massivly improved the UI and they still got more complex in every itteration, and a lot more fun to play as well.So I'd like to see some actuall proof on how improved UI would dumb down SCII when it has never dumbed down RTS games in the past.https://tl.net/forum/closed-threads/59068-why-mbs-is-essential-to-a-competitive-sc2
>>924153>fallacy fallacyNigger stop fucking dodging your way out of actually answering why you want these things other than to pander to you SPECIFICALLY. Why should we care about the grand vision of a random autist? Was killing a thread worth making this?
>>924180>why do you want these things? just cause you want them?>don't you realize that retarded normalfags want something else?Ad populum
>>924201No, why do you expect us to care about your personal opinion while phrasing it like implementing your desires will save the RTS genre? You're a slimy fuck.
>>924169History is doomed to repeat itself.
>>924202>nooooo you're only allowed to voice opinions that normalfags agree withAd populumLast (you) for your terrible bait, nolifter
>>924206Nigger you aren't even reading what I'm typing.le nolifter XDWhy did I even bother trying to engage with you where all you do is say NOLIFTER AD POPULUM NORMALFAGS fuck me sideways.Nobody cares about your shitty opinion.
>>923158Thats exactly what communism is, killing everyone who is better than (you).
>>923596You fucking retards are believing everything game journos (actual monkey braindead faggots which are struggling with games made for literal kids) writing, no wonder you are so fucking retarded.Heres a revelation: if retard game journo calls apple a banana it does not make apple a banana. It makes anyone trying to force banana meme a double retard.
>>924134There are still people who prefer Brood War because of its control limitations. They exist today, they didn't go extinct. Multiple building selection doesn't strike me as a problem, and obviously SC2 is smoother and less frustrating to play, but Brood War's objectively inefficient pathfinding and unit selection limit of 12 lead to way more interesting fights. Watching deathball v. deathball gets old after a while (for me). There are tradeoffs here.
>>923158I'm talking about communism (or le socialism) in practice. I know on paper it's Marx's gay classless whateverless utopia but in practice it's Tall Poppy Syndrome writ large on a societal scale. U
>>924390You fucking retards are believing everything game PR execs (actual monkey braindead faggots which are struggling with games made for literal kids) writing, no wonder you are so fucking retarded.Heres a revelation: if retard game PR exec calls apple a banana it does not make apple a banana. It makes anyone trying to force banana meme a double retard.
>>924396the main reason i cant get into broodwar after playing sc2 since launch is that all those people who prefer it have been playing on and off for 20 something yearsi cant match with people who are as bad or worse than me when i ladder quake has the same problem but its not as severe
>>924748bullshit, there's plenty of F-tier shitters who couldn't macro properly to save their lives
Gookclickers are the cancer killing rts
>>925237You're just slow in the mind, that's why your apm is so low.
>>908804Kek, even CoH is too much for these retards
>make 2 of the best video games of all time>kill strategyis that how that works
>>924748>>925087It's a common refrain: "This game has been around too long, everyone is too good by now." But upon investigation I have never found any game to actually be like this.
>>925513Really dead fighting games on steam are like thatt, shit that doesn't get even 50 players during peak.
>>924748Then start playing it, promote it to other potentially interested players, and grow a cozy amateur group.
I understand why some people might prefer to think over their actions and dislike that APM is a fairly important factor in RTS. I don't understand why these people don't just play turn-based strategy games, those are still being made. Why would the game even need to be real-time if people purely want to focus on making strategic decisions?
>>926688They do. Not like there's even any RTSes left to play. The genre is dead as dirt.
>>926688Some people just want more innovation in RTSes in general and criticizing APM is shorthand for criticizing the mass focus on making every RTS a Starcraft-like. High-micro RTSes and high-macro RTSes can get along, but the genre's stagnation is not a good thing by anyone's measure.
>>926704I agree that it's fine to slaughter some sacred cows of RTS design to see what works, but it's hard to even imagine an RTS that has absolutely no potential for "gookclick". Because if high APM is at all rewarding, it'll be optimized to crazy levels. So that means buildings and production can be fully automated and pre-planned and you can't control individual units. That means you need some way to control large groups of units at once, like forming battalions. But then the way to organize these battalions needs to be designed in such a way that it takes absolutely no APM. And then the same with moving them, dividing them, upgrading them, adjusting your build order, etc. The fact that you will have to spend a bunch of time interacting with menus means that you either end up rewarding APM, or you end up making a turn-based game.
>>926715>but it's hard to even imagine an RTS that has absolutely no potential for "gookclick". Which is why I said high-macro and low-macro instead of taking on OP's shitflinging filled prompt.
>>926688Because real time and turn based distinction is not simply "you have time to think". There are rts and other games with active pause, where you can pause game, think, issue orders and watch them in action. And they are not played like turn based game at all - "Watch your orders being implemented in real time" is extremely important thing, because in turn based games you lose all granularity, you have usually very discrete hexes and turns - there are no "epsilon turns". >>926715There is a difference between:1) You are rewarded by being effective in managing several control groups, moving damaged units behind healthy and for not forgetting to check every barrack.2) You are rewarded by being effective in managing several army groups, assigning barracks to them, setting up budgets and preparing two combined naval invasions with air support at enemy's resource base.First one is a thing that feels like a chore, this is a big reason why all these threads are created. Second one is what you would do in every rts, if only you had interface for it. Both of them are rewarding fast and precise movements, but second one is more satisfying - you have much more action at map at same time at different places, because each engagement is demanding less attention and attention is a limited resource.
>>926797You Will Never Be A General
>>926797Active pause is interesting, but it obviously doesn't work in multiplayer. Restricting a game to be entirely singleplayer comes with plenty of design challenges of its own. "gookclick" seems like it mostly applies to multiplayer
>>926812I was not suggesting active pause for multiplayer, it was said to demonstrate that "rts where you can think" is not equal to "tbs".
>>908935Turn based games are more popular than even dude. Just look at any RPG now, and watch the Real Time worh Pause and Turn Based players sperg out.
>>919661Just go play Supreme Commander, or Total War.
>>926715>Because if high APM is at all rewarding, it'll be optimized to crazy levels.NTA, but I think there are definitely limits to this. To take some examples from AoE2, some things yield far more of a reward based on micro than they should, or are otherwise too dependent on micro to function normally:>Pre-loom Boar interactions>Arrow dodging>Any combat use of mangonels>Getting Bombard Cannons to target siege units>Quickwalls>All offensive uses of monks, and even some defensive due to its poor range>Management of Infantry-cavalry combined groups in the face of halbs-and-archers, especially when Elephants or infantry lacking plate armor are involved.>Effective management and use of archer/cavalry-archer fire when moving.>Battle Elephant/Siege ram building-arrow blindspot management>Villager farm-conversions>Siege/ship repairsThere are probably more, but these are all examples I think can be understood.
>>923364>Basebuilding is a crutch for casual gamers.I dunno about that one chief. Basebuilding is usually what filters people. Build orders and all that.
>>926930Basebuilding is what causes turtling. It’s a safety net. Just see the reaction gookclickers get in a game where there us no basebuilding. They feel vulnerable. The risks are higher.
>>926715I have already been thinking up a rts that punishes clickers.There are a lot of measures you can take to make clicking have diminishing returns
>>926704Because it’s true, rts from it’s inception was the most innovative genre in gaming.Then it stagnated because gookclickers pushed this idea rts = Starcraft.
>>926942what are examples of RTS games with no basebuilding?
>>926945Why would anyone want to play a game that punishes them for playing it?
>>926949Punishes gookclickers. Big difference
>>926954>if I click too many times I lose
>>926948The original RTS Herzog Zwei, Myth, Wargame. Most rts that don’t have basebuilding are structured like table top strategy games (note they are called strategy abd require no base building imagine that) in that you get given a limited amount of points to select your force. Yoy usually can only get more units by securing objectives or reinforcements mechanics.
>>926956More like if you click too many times it doesn’t confer any advantage. Hence diminishing returns. You idiot.
>>926959>Myth, WargameThose are RTT
>>926960lmfao APM is not linear dude. It already has diminishing returns. Half of the high APM you see in starcraft is just issuing the same order 20 times. It doesn't directly change anything. If you have 200 APM, only a percentage of those are actually going to be directly advantageous to the player.
>>926959I'm surprised there aren't more games like Wargame or Steel Battalion. More of a focus on the actual engagement than basebuilding on a larger scale. Company of Heroes is a decent compromise - but the scale is so small.
>I have no idea how RTS games work, here's my take on them
>>926961No they aren’t. You retard.>>926964You are definitely retarded.
>>926966There’s quite a few actually but most get ignored because gookclicker babies have always felt insecure playing them.A base is basically a fall back point in the game that eliminates most of the risk of strategy
The only people who bitchwhine about 'gookclicking' are those who never learned how to APM. Few thing are as satisfying as playing an RTS game at a high level. If you hate that REAL TIME startegy games require real time excellence from you, fuck off back to Civilization, faggots.
>>926968>list RTT games>doesn't know about the genre>no you're wrongOkay I will call you wrong, too. What now?Try coming up with an actual argument
>>926964>>926967>>926972Gooks should be lined up and shot
>>926968All you've done is insult people, you haven't even attempted to back up your claims or ideas.>>926971Could I bother you to suggest some?
>>926971anon, stop posting already or the few people here who actually play the games will see your bullshit and laugh
>>926975Chill out dud, I don't even like starcraft. Intensive micro is not to my tastes. But there's no reason to act like 200000000000apm is the single determining factor in who wins.
>>926973>Wargame: Red Dragon is a real-time strategy video game developed by Eugen Systems >Myth: The Fallen Lords is a Real Time Strategy game which pits the evil Fallen Lords vs humanity.You must take control of archers, explosive-throwing dwarves, dependable infantry, and others to stop the horde of undead and evil from overrunning the last vestiges of good in the world.
Gooks need to understand that rts isn’t their genre. You play sc2 which isn’t a strategy game.
>>926983>Myth: The Fallen Lords is a 1997 real-time tactics video game developed by Bungie for Windows and Mac OS.
>>926977Your incoherently mad because you are a Starcraft shitter
>>926945Sounds interesting. Mind telling me about your ideas?
>>926986>implying wiki is an accurate source Revisionism by mentally Ill idiots such as yourself.You underage gooks don’t seem to understand you are talking to people much older and wiser than you. We have been playing rts for a long time.
>>926993>phonenigger thinks he gets to have an opinionkekThanks for conceding
>>926996Summary: Myth is arguably the first real-time strategy game to put the player in a true 3D landscape, with an emphasis on tactical battlefield action rather than base construction. Myth also happens to be one of Bungie's most successful pre-Halo releases, and shows off the company's range and ability…https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/myth-the-fallen-lords
>>926900Yes, TBS is more popular than ever, while RTS continues to be a dead genre. Why can none of you read?
>>926998>he thinks I’m using a phoneFound the retard.
>Starcraft isn't an RTS!>Myth isn't an RTS!>Wargame isn't an RTS!jesus christ you people are pedantic as hellyou all know what we're talking about, and you're just being purposefully obtuse
This thread proves gooks are the cancer killing gaming.Seriously most if this board is dedicated to rts/tbs other than Starcraft.Yet Starcraft casuals make up 90% of the seething shitposts.It just isn’t popular outside of Korea. Because the c&c Starcraft formula was NEVER a good strategy formula. It was a good tactics and sim town formula.
>>927004>It was a good tactics formulaThisThe gookclick formula only works if there's no base building
>>927000Myth was such a superior rts compared to Starcraft and Warcraft. It had physics and formations real strategic considerations and tactics could be employed for the first time ever.The lack of base building and finite army size scared casuals away though.
>>927013>The lack of base building and finite army sizeoh so it was a tactics game
The sad thing is that the perfect game for all these people complaining about Starcraft and APM already exists, and it's at large enough of a scale to have both squad tactics, and overall strategy. And yet no one acknowledges it. Don't like getting rushed? This game has maps that take over ten minutes to cross. And units that can take over 30 minutes to build without additional build power. Don't like APM? Set your factories to infinite build, and put the rally point in your enemy base and focus on other things. Like turtling? Build artillery and literally nuke the enemy.https://youtu.be/FcpicJgWs4A
>>927016>And yet no one acknowledges it.Are you retarded? It's considered the best RTS ever made, to the point that it killed the rest of the genre because no other game lived up to it. Next you'll claim that noone mentioned Total War or turn based games.
>>927016Mechs are shit so game is shit by default
>>927016>game of staring at colored dotsGee how exciting
>>927019... I'm talking about in this thread, kneejerk-kun. It was mentioned twice and completely disregarded for inane arguments over basebuilding and RTS vs RTT.
Why the seethe, again? if you dont like 'gookclickers' dont play them..? Obviously competitive games are more exciting when the players are tested both with their minds and their reflexes
>>927024Because people on this website can't talk about something unless they are complaining about it, and completely unrelated things.
>>927023Who cares how much it was mentioned in this schizo thread, go into any gaming community and they will say their favourite RTS is SupCom. It's like having to mention that the sky is blue, only the most retarded needs to be reminded of it's existence.
>>927023>I'm talking about in this threadThat wasn't clear at all you fucking retard
>>927027>for all these people complaining about Starcraft and APM
>>927028>those people only exist ITTkys
>>927029No, you kill yourself Nolifter
>>927029Just admit you can't read and move on. It's fine. You'll be happier.
>>927024This is thread is one big mindless shitter seethe over rts playing like rts. And wanting to turn them into nonrts so they are easier
>>927033>you can't readYeah that's why everyone misunderstood your post. Cope
>>927035>two people>everyoneAre you okay?
>>927038So what you're saying is using generalizations like "everyone" and "no one" is retarded when you're only talking about a few specific peopleGot it
>>927041You should consider taking a break from this website. Getting this upset over your misinterpretation of a single post on a hungarian yak wrestling forum is extremely unhealthy.
Ah, the good old "y-you're mad"Thanks for conceding. No more (you)s for bait
>>927045lmfao. You clearly are. My original post wasn't bait, but your overreaction to it is genuinely something else. Whatever dude.
>>927026>go into any gaming community and they will say their favourite RTS is SupComI wish dude. Every time I've seen RTS discussed among non-enthusiasts it's always westwood, blizzard, or rome: total war. oh and age of empires too. TA and supcom hardly get the same love.
>I don't like how RTS are, change them to be what they felt like when I played them as a 5 year old>if you don't want RTS to conform to my tastes you're in the wrong and the reason RTS as a genre is deadgood threadas an aside why do people blame the people who buy the games instead of the people who make the games?is it because they understand that game makers will generally only make games that sell and that there isnt actually a market for the game they want?
>>923158You will never have a workers' state.
>>927136They don't. But he wanted to be mad for no reason.
>>927158It's easier to point fingers at the well defined target, not the nebulous one.
>>927158Because every new successful rts decreased amount of gookclick. And every time gookclickers were seething at forums that it will destroy the genre and it will be no longer an RTS, destroying threads with their "ugh, it will be turn-based" nonsense.
>>927405>every new successful rts decreased amount of gookclickCan you explain this to me? I'm not even that guy but I'm curious how it reduced APM as a factor. Do you just mean how it reduced the amount of dumb limitations SC had like unit selection limits and retarded pathfinding so you had to constantly babysit?
>>927406Some things are due to design implications, some are due to system limitations, and some are just things the devs accidentally left in. Devs worked a little more and made unit control easier.
>>927406Literally the entire reason gook clicking exists is because of dumb ai pathing and primitive game design.Gooks basically exploited a flaw on these game designs and turned it into something it was never meant to be.You could liken it to early speed running by rocket jumping in quake.
>>927015You aren’t winning any arguments you mentally disabled moron.
>>927024Because gookclickers aren’t real strategy games or proper rts. And gookclickers are casuals that are destroying the genre.
>>908801It was never gookclick because you can pause the game or slow it down.
>>927412But rocket jumping is a fun skill-based mechanic
>>927406APM will be always a factor. Decreasing amount of friction in interaction with game mechanics led to players spending their APM not on optimizing paths, managing groups of 4 units and clicking over buildings but on more interesting things which they were not able to do previously because they were too busy working as path finding algorithm or as script that presses some button every 25 seconds.
>>927453Oh ok that makes sense thanks for clearing that up.
>>927453...This is a good thing though.
>>927453How many actions-per-minute do you think great generals of history were doing? Do you think General Patton was even issuing one a minute?Until games reach this level they are not strategy games they are action games. I should not have to tell my soldiers to go to the toilet or use their basic abilities they should know to do that.
>>927555Then play turn-based games, retard, unless you want a real-time game that lasts weeks. The timescales in real-time strategy are obviously abstracted.
>>927555Games will have inflated APM just by nature of being games and having limited maps with sped up time. Every time Patton looks at the map, it's an action. Every time Patton checks reports, it's an action. APM in itself is not evil, APM spent on ordering soldier to use basic ability and go to toilet is.
>>927555General Patton didn't have a real-time overview of the map either, nor was he producing units or gathering resources. At that point you basically want to play a military-themed visual novel where you make high level strategic decisions.
>>927565That’s not how troops are commanded in war. Ffs the c&c/blizzard model is just dumb.Yoy are essentially taking control of the unit as if you were the unit. Rather than ordering it and it acting on its own.
>>927565And every order he done would be translated to multiple actions menus manipulation.
>>927564Gookclickers aren’t proper strategy games and have no sense of scale abd thejr worlds are compressed,Sc2 is more like space invaders
>>927565“Apm” is just saying a game dev doesn’t have to code smart units. Cause a sped moron will do it.
>>927577Absolutely unrelated to what I said. There isn't a single RTS game that has a realistic timescale, because that would be absolutely unplayably boring. Being a general is not inherently a fun thing.
>>927580Strawman, there’s slower paced rts out there. Why can’t you admit what you are? Sc2 for example was designed to only last an hour tops. Just for it’s comp scene.
>>927581I was responding to >>927555Show me an RTS game where you are expected to take less than 1 action per minute. They don't exist, because then you might as well make a turn-based game.
>>927581>this entire thread
>>927582There’s rts out there, even 1:1 scale ones. Sc2 is just one game
>>927586Bait-kun, you are the only one who keeps bringing up Starcraft. I haven't heard a single counter-example of a "real" RTS with realistic timescales, no direct unit control, and your actions exclusively being used for high-level strategic decisions like a real general.
>>927594Because apm is only ever brought up in the context of sc2.>KunStop being a little gook faggot. You are obviously a mong and a moron lying.
>>927594It’s ironic how you sit in this thread baiting all day and you have the nerve to call others “bait” posters.I know exactly what you are doing you mentally ill fuck. You are trying to twist the definition of rts to only mean Starcraft style games
>>927598>>927601Still waiting on that counter-example.
>>927602You aren’t a real rts enthusiast and I’m not going to humour your trolling by replying to your strawman.
>>927604I don't see what I'm strawmanning, the post I was responding to quite literally said that if a strategy game has more than 1 APM it's not a strategy game.
>>927609Do you know what a strawman is. kid I’m not going to give an example because you will immediately claim I’m advocating the strawman. You dishonest fuck
>>927615You are 14 at the very most
>>927617 take your ad hominem and shove it up your abused ass
>>927622>take your ad hominem>>927615>You dishonest fuck>>927604>You aren’t a real rts enthusiast>>927601>you mentally ill fuckSorry for triggering you, anon. Congratulations on your 14th birthday!
>>927615You're claiming I'm arguing against a point that nobody has actually made, that's the definition of a strawman. But I argue against >>927555>How many actions-per-minute do you think great generals of history were doing? Do you think General Patton was even issuing one a minute? Until games reach this level they are not strategy games they are action games.I might've extrapolated a bit by implying that this anon's perceived "true strategy game" would also not include direct unit control, but really, what am I strawmanning? Please point me to how am I misrepresenting that poster's argument.
>>927580Jane's Fleet Command
>>927625It’s a strawman because I never advocated for a 1:1 timescale game you did.Remember kids when you strawman you are an idiot and no one has to address you.
Arguably fighting games have more strategy than rts since fighting games tend to punish you a lot more for spamming and constantly forces you to think fast. Not to say reflexes aren't important, but you're on a lot more even ground.
>>927640I actually advocated that a 1:1 timescale would be infeasible, so I'm glad we agree on that, but I have to ask, what's the point of mentioning General Patton's apm then? Obviously if the timescale is different from real life, the density of actions per minute is going up.
>>927641There’s a game like Graviteam that eliminate this problem more a purist rts experience.
>>927644No it isn’t. It just depends on the size of the map and some other factors obviously a jet can cover hundreds of kms quickly. You aren’t very bright.
>>927646Okay, fine, so you do stand by the fact that you think a real RTS should have less than 1 APM, and if not, it is an action game? Then I will once again ask you to point me towards a real strategy game.
>>927644>gets called out for strawmanning >denies he is strawmanning >confirms he was just strawmanning No one agreed with you you smarmy cunt. They said they weren’t advocating what you claimed.You aren’t even making an argument just strawmanning. Idiot.
>>927650anon, stop arguing with the retarded
>>924448https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK158ih4smYPoint I was trying to get across is to think for yourself. There's many games which are trying to paint themselves as something they are not for marketing purposes and then retarded journous add to the confusion.When you see a strategy game which plays like a strategy game and has all attributes of strategy game it most likely a strategy game and not some kind of "non-binary genrefluid quazi-shooter with multi-orbital camera and occasional command elements with mandatory rpg element insertion".
>>927650I never made the claim you did and I didn’t agree with you.Learn2debate.Also stop lying you gook.
>>927654>all attributes of strategy gameOne attribute is "must include basebuilding"
>>927652Don’t reply to yourself you actual retard.
>>927657False, this attribute us arbitrary and listed by fans if Starcraft style games.The first rts and many rts don’t have base building.You are intellectually immature.
>>927651If I did strawman, it was purely by accident because I can not fathom what point anon is trying to make. I still don't. It sounds like an imaginary game is being hyped up as the only real RTS. Anon refuses to elaborate or give any examples, so I might be reaching. Is the point just "I want to play tactics games and not base-build or micro like in Starcraft"? That's fine, but those games still have way more APM than a real general would, not to mention direct feedback, higher information transparency, etc.>>927656I also still do not understand what I am allegedly lying about.>>927652Perhaps.
>>927654Are you talking about the journos who started pushing “RTT” Common issue with people in useless professions out of academia to redefine terms/theory etc to justify their professional existence.The RTS genre is easy to understand it’s real time strategy as in a Wargame. There has no other implied features. Just like we don’t give fps funny names and assume they all have the same set of features.
>>927661The only people in the wrong here are the trolls absurdly trying to say rts is just Starcraft. Any other argument is a strawman.
>>927609It’s funny how you immediately just do what he said you’d do.
>>927669And I agree, you can have an RTS without base building, you can have an RTS without microing unit abilities, you can have an RTS without resource gathering. Is that the point you were trying to make? It's fine to like Cossacks, you don't have to bring up General Patton's APM to say that that's an RTS.And for what it's worth, saying that RTSes without basebuilding aren't RTSes isn't a strawman argument, it's a no true Scotsman fallacy.
And is "StarCraft" in the room with us right now?
>>927659>The first rts and many rts don’t have base building.Those are called RTT, actually
>>927678The first rts is Herzog Zwei which inspired all the gookclicker you love.No base building>>927676Gaslighting isn’t winning you any arguments you schizo.
>>927672I’m fighting against the idiots trying to claim all rts must be structured in the Blizzard c&c format.And trying to redefine the genre to be only these games.
>>927683>No base buildingSo it's an RTT then
>>927686You are simply trolling because you lost the argument you low iq fool.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzog_ZweiHerzog Zwei[a] (German pronunciation: [ˈhɛɐ̯tsoːk ˈtsvaJ̯], German for "Duke Two") is a real-time strategy video game developed by Technosoft and published by Sega for the Mega Drive/Genesis. An early real-time strategy game, it predates the genre-popularizing Dune II. It was released first in Japan in 1989 and worldwide in 1990. It is the sequel to Herzog, which was available on the Japanese MSX and PC-8801 personal computers.Herzog Zwei combines the arcade-style play of Technosoft's own Thunder Force series with a simple, easy-to-grasp level of strategy. It has been cited as an inspiration to the developers of Warcraft, Starcraft, Dune II, and Command & Conquer.
>>927686Trolling and repeating yourself over and over isn’t winning you any arguments
>>927691>Through the mech, the player purchases surface combat units, airlifts them across the battlefield, and issues them ordersOh so it has a base, and you build units in it. The base just happens to be a mechThanks for conceding that all RTSs require bases :)
>>927691Just to point out the fact that the basis of the Warcraft/Starcraft formula is an arcade game.You can start to understand this obsession with clicking
>>927684I'm not that interested in arguing semantics of genres, but sure. If that's all you're trying to say, then that's fair enough, but mind you that this has nothing to do with APM. Just because Starcraft is the most popular high-APM RTS doesn't mean it's the only format. A high APM ("gookclick") game without base building could still exist.
>>927694The mech is the player avatar and doesn’t act like a “building” or base.
>>927699>doesn’t act like a “building”>Through the mech, the player purchases surface combat units
>>927697It’s only popular in Korea. Most of this board is dedicated to games other than it.I’m honestly sick of gooks shilling their culture in the west and that goes for appropriated culture too. No one cares about pro sc2. So it’s a moot point. The people pushing this constantly bring it up but no one cares.
>>927701You are an idiot
>>927706>ad hominemThanks for conceding that all RTSs need basebuilding to be classed as such
>>927705If you ask any rando for an RTS they will likely either say Age of Empires, or StarCraft/Warcraft. They are all base-building resource-gathering unit-producting style RTSes. They are the most popular type of RTS, and you are delusional if you think that's all a Korean conspiracy.
>>927709What part of the acronym rts implies base building
>>927713The strategy part, because without basebuilding it's called RTT
>>927711The most popular rts are the total war games, Wargame series and a bunch of others that are nothing to do with this I mean the most popular fps is CoD or CS is Doom now not a fps? You are an idiot.
>>927715What part of the word strategy implies basebuilding
>>927717>The most popular rts are the total war games, Wargame series and a bunch of others that are nothing to do with thisBy what metric?>I mean the most popular fps is CoD or CS is Doom now not a fps?I have never implied that less popular RTS games are not "real" RTS. But base-building RTSes are simply the most well known.
>>927717anon... SC2 mogs TW in numbers
>>927711Yoy are lying to yourself if you don’t think it’s Korean spergs doing it.Also a refresher on gooks, well known to use paid shills or Astro turf armies to try and manipulate communities. Have lots of money invested in sc2 tournaments. Have a vested interest in promoting their scene at the expense of our interests.Just ask why 90% of these threads us the sa,e sounding trolls arguing about apm while the rest of the board is not related to it
>>927719The part where strategy means deciding what unit types and production lines to focus onSorry that this thread was the first time you ever heard the word tactics, there's no reason to get this mad about itBy the way, what part of the word strategy implies telling each individual soldier the exact place on the battlefield they should take?
>>927725Oh, I see, so you're a tinfoil nut. Sorry for wasting your time.
>>927723In Korea…How else can you qualify it? Blizzard doesn’t release accurate data on Bnet and we have steam charts.Spin more lies.
>>927726That’s nothing to do with strategy. That is fucking sim town , sim factory gameplay.You think table top strategy games revolve around Base building?While discussing historic strategy did they do basebuilding in combat?No.You aren’t English native
>>927734I see you refused to answer the simple question what part of the word strategy implies telling each individual soldier the exact place on the battlefield they should takeThis means that you accept that a genre definition is not bound by the exact autismal definitions of each of its termsThanks for conceding
kekI was gonna respond again but never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake
>>927717Total War is not rts. It's RTT in battles and TBS on campaign map
>>927726You have already had this explained to you before. RTS games are not tactic games, tactic games are squad level games. That is what the level tactics revolves around, something like 5 soldiers.Strategy is the “macro” view of the entire battlefield and the entire army. It’s what the general does vs what the grunts do.None if this has to do with “basebuilding” you dumb autist
>>927740Total war is a rts. It’s real time strategy combat with a turn based campaign map.Sane thing as dawn of war.>RTT Pseud term doesn’t exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_Tactics:_Brotherhood_of_SteelThis is a “tactics” game
>>927738What question? I never received it. Yet another strawman, idiot
>>927745I’ll also add considering that games like Starcraft would qualify less as a rts and more as a “RTT” since you are micromanaging the troops and utilising simple tactics like kiting.Ironically the guy that coined that stupid term WAS discussing Starcraft style games. So the term applies to basebuilding Starcraft clones not the opposite.
>>927747>Total war is a rts.Nah. Economic parts like base building and resource gathering, external and internal politics and strategical long term war planning do not happen on the battlefield map. Only tactical battles do. So it's rtt>Pseud term doesn’t exist.It does though, which is why your revisionism is met with resistance here. Lumping all games under this one term dilutes it's meaning and turns it into a buzzword.
>>927752>What question? I never received itThe one I copypasted in the post. But sure here you go again>>927726>By the way, what part of the word strategy implies telling each individual soldier the exact place on the battlefield they should take?
>>927745>It’s what the general doesWhat general has a troop limit of 100 troops and macro's all of them at once, saying exactly where they have to stand and which enemy soldier each one has to shoot at?
>>927594>I haven't heard a single counter-example of a "real" RTS with realistic timescales, no direct unit control, and your actions exclusively being used for high-level strategic decisions like a real general.Closest I can think of is Total warIn the battle scenes, the time scale is as close to 1 to 1 as possibleWhile you do have direct unit control, you are discouraged from micro by a command delay where it takes time for a unit to respond to your ordersIt's not the perfect example but it's proof that a game where strategic decisions are important can be made
>>927765That style of game definitely is the closest to the "general fantasy" that people seem to want, with the meta layers of war being delegated to turn-based as a concession for the timescale.
>>927758RTT isn’t a real genre. Your strategy game is either real time or turn based. Tactics games are squad level games.>it does though It literally doesn’t. You are the revisionist. Game devs use tactics and strategy interchangeably to market their product as being different from typical rts. They are still rts. RTT is not and never was a genre. It was just marketing talk.
>>927837What if I told you all genres are marketing talk?
>>927841take your ad hominem and shove it up your abused ass
>>927765He is just trolling there are 1:1 to scale games one was posted earlier Graviteam. he is just ignoring/is ignorant about rts.Besides it’s a strawman his claim is a 1:1 game is impossible (false) therefore you are wrong for suggesting it (no one did)
>>927842The point of genres is not to muddy the waters. RTT is a pseud troll deliberately trying to confuse the genres.Rts is a broad genre and it’s been accepted as such for decades.
>>927768I don’t know if you are just new to strategy or rts, I get the impression a lot of people in these threads are kids or Koreans only interested in Starcraft.But the point if a strategy game is to simulate real life text book strategy.What a strategy enthusiast looks for in a game is that. Total war is so good because you can use real strategy from history and win. That is the entire god damn point of a strategy game.This is why strategy games like Myth, Wargame, Total war etc are superior to the Warcraft/SC model.
>>927854You're making a personal claim about what an RTS should be and then judging the merit of all RTS games based on that. Total War is certainly better at being a realistic war strategy simulator than Warcraft, nobody is arguing that. But you must realize that many games are not trying to emulate real life strategy. It's limiting to consider that those are the only types of strategies that can be emulated by video games.
I noticed this thing happening post 2010 where dumbfuck post 2000 kids go and cherry pick game dev musings on their game.Basically when the game devs are blowing their own flute over how special their game is. Like calling their fps rpg a virtual sim.Autists then take this game dev theory shit and start pushing it as a new genre term.It’s fucking beyond stupid, it’s also been called out before. For example some dumbarse going back over 10 or 20 years to add a new term to old article comments just so he could boost the search for the term. Manipulative mental illness.If you are like that guy see a doctor you stupid shit.
>>927859I’m not making a personal claim.it’s an objective truth.If a game doesn’t let me take advantage of formations, high and low ground, flanking and a multitude of strategy concepts it isn’t a good strategy game.That’s how I and many players felt playing Warcraft style games. There was no opportunity for real strategy, so we moved onto better games.
>>927863>That’s how I and many players felt playing Warcraft style games.That's fair.>it’s an objective truth.No it's not.
>>927864It is an objective truth. You can count with your fingers how many strategic concepts are permitted in your game.So you can actually quantify and qualify how much a rts is being an actual rts.
>>927866Oh nice, I wanna count with my fingers for my favorite games!Go ahead, list all possible strategic concepts that a game can have
>>927867As many as you can code into it. Listen to me kid, listen carefully. You aren’t as half as bright as you think you are and never will be.
>>927866There's no exhaustive list of "strategic concepts". You've listed some examples, but there's strategic things that one could find in StarCraft or Warcraft that don't exist in real life strategy, like detecting invisible units. The definition of what is and isn't "strategic" is, in the end, subjective.
>>927870You have to be underage. Not everything is subjective. Also go take an English class your English comprehension is atrocious you third world twit.
>>927869>As many asList them, I wasn't asking for a number
I’m starting to think the faggot pushing “tactics” is German. I noticed German game material mentions tactics instead if strategy. Internet was a mistake.
>>927871You like strategy games that let you mimic real world strategies. Someone else might like strategy games that involve a lot of base-building, or intensive unit micro, and there are strategy games that focus more on that. Why is your preference objectively correct, but not theirs?
>>927872You have to be mentally disabled. You are essentially asking how many grains of sand are in a beach. Shut up you dumbass.
>>927876>You are essentially asking how manyWrong, I wasn't asking for a number, as I just told you>>927875Thanks for conceding
>>927876Anon implied it's 10 or less tho. See >>927866>You can count with your fingers how many strategic concepts are permitted in your game.
>>927874You have maggots in your brain, everyone of your posts are ad hominem or strawman attacks,I happen to like some base building rts,Reconsider the way you talk to people you idiot and you won’t be caked stupid every post.We have a problem because you decided trolling > truth and are attacking the entire rts genre.
>>922827Spotted the dyel brainlet
>>927880The point was you can count as in 1,2,3,4… with your fingers. You idiot esl child
Can someone tell me what the point of this epic new strategy (or is it a tactic) is where you can barely string together a sentence but call everyone else ESL?
>>927874If you want to see some games I personally liked >>927610It’s a varied selection. I’ve played and enjoyed many more.So you can shove your ad hominem right up your arse.
>>927885Fuck of esl idiot go study English
>>927883Nice backpedaling, retard. Just cause you can't properly express yourself doesn't mean that everyone who allegedly "misunderstood" the nonsense you're spouting is an ESL. Keep huffing that copium I guess.
>>927881You are the one who says things like "you have maggots in your brain" every post, my man, I haven't been making personal attacks. I have no issue with the RTS genre, in fact, I'm saying that shit like "it's not a REAL rts unless..." is a waste of time. Total War is an RTS, Warcraft is an RTS, Majesty is an RTS, we're arguing semantics.>>927886I like Dungeon Keeper too, but there's very few "strategic concepts" in there. How does that gel with:>But the point if a strategy game is to simulate real life text book strategy.Or was that a different anon? I just assumed it was the same poster, because you are also abusing the phrase "ad hominem" while also insulting everyone you reply to.
>>927890You are dumb guy. You realise you can count more than ten times with your fingers. It’s no one else’s fault you are low iq.>>927891Because I’m arguing with esl trolls. Insults are neither ad hominem or strawmanning I’m simply insulting people who stubbornly refuse to listen and keep trying to twist things to suit their opinion.I have zero patience for people like you that troll and lie.
>>927891Attacking my choice of games is yet another ad hominem strawmanYour brain is fucked.My choice in games isn’t related to the topic.Just try it, once I your life trying replying to someone without personally attacking them, lying or making up shit faggit brain.
>>927966>Insults are [not] ad hominem>>927970>once I your life trying replying to someone without personally attacking them, ... faggit brain.
>>927974Insults are not ad hominem. Ad hominem is when you attack the person rather than the argument.Like you are doing.
>>927966You are actually mentally ill, dude.
>>927975When you call someone a "faggit brain" or a "troll" or a "dumb guy", that's not attacking the person?
>>927974UsageImproper usageContrary to popular belief, merely insulting someone is not a fallacious ad hominem. A character attack is only considered a fallacious ad hominem if it is used in exchange for a genuine argument.
>>927977UsageImproper usageContrary to popular belief, merely insulting someone is not a fallacious ad hominem. A character attack is only considered a fallacious ad hominem if it is used in exchange for a genuine argument.>>927976You are the one who is mentally Ill you ad hominem dipshit.
>>927980What's your genuine argument then?
This site sucks now, every user is a an esl dumb shit that can’t even read English.You talk to them like they are 4 and they still can’t understand you.
>>927984>keeps throwing around the word "esl">makes sentences like "Just try it, once I your life trying replying to someone without personally attacking them, lying or making up shit faggit brain"
>>927983I’ve repeated it about 20 times itt.The rts genre is a broad genre that encompasses many types if games, not just Starcraft.Do you want me to nail it to your forehead?
>>927982>literally no u
>>927985Because you are obviously esl. I don’t have to take this shit seriously if you can’t even read my posts.
>>927986Yet you keep responding to posts that say things like "Starcraft and Total War are both valid RTS games" with shit like "you are a retarded esl gook" and bringing up nonsense about the amount of strategic concepts or the APM of general Patton. Almost nobody is disagreeing with that statement.
>>927986To add that’s my argument. I insult you because yoy are acting like 14 year olds trolling and deliberately lying, and posting fallacious shit like morons>why do you think this?>I don’t >Ok you agree with me.>I don’t
>>927989Because I’m arguing with people that believe RTS are ONLY games like Starcraft.Do I need to draw a diagram?
>>927994You're not, though. There's this one dude who is trying to bait with stuff like "akshually it's a RTT", but the vast majority of people agree that Total War is an RTS.
>>927989>general PattonOk here is the problem. The issue is you think everyone itt you are obsessively arguing with is the same guy.I never said a thing about Paton, so I assume you have been arguing against a strawman you made up in your head the entire time.You are obviously from reddit and don’t belong here. Try addressing actual posts instead of a fucking post from days ago you fucking insufferably dense underage dumb fuck.
>>927996Then you have done the image board equivalent of walk into friendly fire.Don’t expect me to apologise I made myself clear at all times.
>>927997It was 5 hours ago, but fair enough man. If all you're trying to say is "base building does not an RTS make", then we agree. But you could have used a lot less words and a lot less seethe to accomplish that.
>>928001This is the issue with the internet and life in general you should try asking what people think.Like what do you think about rts that have basebuilding.I like them and I don’t have an issue with others liking them.
Btw the number of features in a game that let you employ real strategy in a game isn’t nonsense. A good strategy game has more. I have no idea how you can’t comprehend what I’m saying.The smart arse who asked for how many. It’s a how long is a piece of string point. There isn’t a fucking number. There are so many strategies in warfare and more developed every century. Just that more is better than none.If you think this statement is hard to understand or nonsense you are dumb.
>>928012Base building RTS have plenty of strategic elements, the most important being territory control, cost effectiveness and local superiority. The rest don't matter because its just number crunching for autistics who like to pretend they're General Patton.
>>928043And attrition, forgot to mention that. The reason non-coat effective units exist is because they usually take less attrition.
>>908799I remember getting into SC2 expectind sweet tug of war push and pull gameplay about military exploits n stuffall I got was timing resources and units so my death ball had 2% more damage necesary to kill my opponent's deathball and got really dissapointed
>>928065That's expected of a low IQ gamer like you, RTS is only for smart people who can think quickly.
>>908799>The genre has strategy in the name so that means it's about being a general and anything other than thinking and giving macro orders is wrongGame genre names are retarded and always were, look at "MOBA" for example. The most iconic RTSs (SC, WC, AoE, C&C) are games where speed matters a lot and action is part of the fun.>b-but that doesn't involve strategyDOTA has no arenas either.>b-but I don't like games like thatYou don't like the biggest RTSs then, maybe a different genre or subgenre is more of your thing but stop trying to change what already works.
>>927849>Rts is a broad genreNah. It means strategy games with workers, base building, unit creating and gathering resources in addition to fighting all on on single map. So Starcraft/AoE/Command and Conquer and their clones or variations. When you say RTS, this is what people expect.>RTT is a pseud troll deliberately trying to confuse the genres.Wrong. It's there to help properly classify games so radically different games aren't lumped into one genre.>Rts is a broad genre That's muddying the waters and turning it into meaningless term.
>>927405... StarCraft killed the genre twice, anon. What are you even on about?
>>927555How many video games do you think Patton played?
>>927594This is not a game. The thing you are describing is not a game. If you want to be a real general join the military.
>>927854>But the point if a strategy game is to simulate real life text book strategy.
>>927598What website do you think you are on?
>>927866Do you even know what the word strategy means?
>be literal garbage silver player>have around 120apmAre you people limbless or something? If you can type fast enough to have a post ready before the post cooldown runs out then you have enough APM to get started.EPM is more important anyhow
Do you think "muh gookclick apm" would even be an argument if it wasn't tracked by games?
>>928391The “apm” obsession arose because of competitive Starcraft. Everytime someone brings it up its invariably referring to SC comp.
>>928313>>928315>>928319Same troll idiot
>>928102Troll. Everything you said is incorrect and you are just spamming the thread with religious posts because you lost the argument badly.>Nah. It means strategy games with workers, base building, unit creating and gathering resources in addition to fighting all on on single map. So Starcraft/AoE/Command and Conquer and their clones or variations. When you say RTS, this is what people expect.Absolutely false weasal wording that is WHAT you expect because you only play Starcraft.There is no requirement for base building or workers etc in a RTS>RTTIsn’t a real term, it’s being forced by pseudo such as yourself, quoting game journos opinions and misquoting developers discussing their games.There already existed a tactics genre before you decided to make up this genre and force it on RTS games you personally don’t like.
>>927594because i dont want that gay shit when i can make a fuckoff giant robot and laser your ass
>>928404Case in point >>928372Are SC players just that dishonest? They sit in the thread claiming they are SC players. But all they di is refer to SC comp.Btw not that it matters I was a Diamond player.
>>928414>dishonest>call myself a garbage silver playerI can 1v1 you right now if you want me to prove my garbageness, but then again you don't play. Very similar things happen in the FGC
>>928406It's almost like I was responding to the thread as I was reading it.
>>928414They aren’t* SC players
>>928415I don’t play now. I haven’t played sc2 in years and don’t give a flying fuck. I don’t want to reinstall it and have zero interest in it.This entire thread is basically people wanting to discuss strategy games while one group tries to discuss pro football
>>928420>i don't playyeah I know
Fucking moronic Starcraft gooks kys
>>928422>kysNow you're talking about Guilty Gear? jesus
>>928413Ever hear of a Monkeylord? Galactic Colossus?
>>928424I was interested in getting into SupCom, but the FAF client is where everyone plays and apparently it changes the game so much its not even the same game.
>>928427You can still play the original with friends on steam. And it is the same game, the balance is just altered. It's not like they've fundamentally altered it as to be unrecognizable.
The fag that keeps pushing the rts = Starcraft clones thing, doesn’t seem to be aware most rts players moved on from this childish idea decades ago.When I look for a good rts game I’m not looking for that sort of gameplay, actually it’s bad strategy gameplay. I’m looking to better games mentioned itt.This all boils down to stop liking what I don’t like, like only what I like autism.And 100% it’s being pushed by Starcraft gooks no doubt about it. One group trying to use revisionism to say only their game is RTS is an obvious bias.
Sc2 failed on release, it had even worse gameplay than the original. It was pandering entirely to the Korean competitive scene, so they removed a new race and removed most new units.Then simplified the gameplay into an arcade game of death blobs to suit the Koreans.Bored everyone to death and died.
On wiki many editors are aware there is literally one troll going around to every rts game that isn’t Starcraft relabelling them “RTT” games using weasal wording.I implore all rts fans to resist this little faggots vandalism of the genre.
does anyone want to play bw with a beginner
>>928438Not to mention it took them five years to finish the campaign that should have released complete in 2010
>>928441https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Real-time_tacticsSo it appears one guy is basically doing it And the entire thing amounts to original research since practically no one has ever referred to RTT as a real sub genre. Besides this guy pushing it on Wikipedia.
>>928449Wiki was a mistake
>>927003you get used to it bro. this thread has been up for like 17 years
>>928449It’s these two faggots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Miqademushttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SharkDThey seem to be trying to force a meme, editing game articles to fit the RTT article rather than the other way around. Cherry-picking any use of the word “tactical”They are esl and mentally ill retards. Tactics are part of strategy.
>>928453It is funny how much influence just one guy on a wiki can have on the discourse. I'm reminded of the American teenager who did untold amounts of damage to the scots language by running their wiki and not knowing any scots.RTT does have some precedent, but not in the way it's being used here. Chris Taylor of TA and supcom called the genre up until that point "real time tactics" because the scale wasn't big enough to involve real strategy. It does appear that developers don't market their games as being RTT. Even the usual suspects like total war. If you search on steam, there's no separate category for RTT.
>>928456They seem to be specifically targeting famous rts games like Myth and Total War that are used as counter points to the claim rts games must be made a certain way.So it’s very clearly they are editing wiki to back up their dishonest arguing here and elsewhere .
>>928463I once edited my village's wiki page and changed its founding date to 1337, turns out the journalists in the town were lazy and used Wikipedia for their articles and now it's stuck and noone remembers the actual founding date anymore. Wikipedia is a mistake
>>928466Eventually they will get banned.
>>928467There should be some kind of edit history on the webpage...?
>>928463Of course, a couple of years ago on /v/ some anons discovered one guy had been returning to decade old articles and adding comments that included a new term he coined.This artificially bumped up the search results of the term. He was basically trying to retroactively insert a word to deceive people into thinking the term was old.
>>928478That sounds like so much effort for nothing
>>928467I edited an article awhile ago because some obviously mad person was angry his country wasn’t the creator of a particular influential movie/game genre.So he took an author’s quote from his country and said the second author from the other country stole his work.When you examined the link, it was an interview where the first author says he was “told” by others that the 2nd author was influenced by his work but he has no idea basically just hearsay.
>>928467This sounds like some archaeological research is needed
>>928438>Bored everyone to death and died.Died in terms of support, still thousands of people playing it. A bunch of dead games wish they were "dead" like SC2.
>>928525People claimed the same thing about Diablo 3 which obviously died. Hard to verify these statements.Blizz making the game free seems to indicate it died.
>>928463Yeah that’s really ironic, Taylor was criticising Warcraft clones as not being real strategy games.These people have taken the term he used and reversed it to say SC/WC clones are the only rts. Definitely sounds like this is someone doing it maliciously because they are mad at Taylor.
>>928441>>928449this is hilariously awesome
>>908799>make an action>apm goes up>be dumb, no actions, no apm>be not dumb, do actions, do apmwtf them gook clicks? ruining my strategy??? me no want do actions big number scary clickety-click. my strategy is inaction! that smart bigbrained!
incidentally, why is it that people who call others ESLs often seem to be complete and utter cretins?is this an american thing?to be proud of knowing no more than one language, while also evidently being even worse at it than ESLs?to think that language fluency somehow makes one more credible?i propose a new insult. EFL. F stands for "first". correlates highly with arrogance, stubbornness, and general incompetence.
>>928768I love this new copypasta, it gives off Rick and Morty energy
>>928472There is, but the damage is done. The village now has a sign that says it was founded in 1337 and I'm not sure how to break the news to people that it's fake