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Games that are simultaneously very deep and very shallow
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>>634512
Into the Breach
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Aurora 4X
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>>634512
life
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HoMM3
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all HoI games. yes, even HoI3.
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>>634524
right? i got interested in that, but feels so short and with so few choices. Did people mod it enough for that to change?
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>>634524
How is ItB very deep?
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>>634512
Dwarf Fortress.
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>>634512
Just put "Besides PDX games" in the next thread.
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>>635999
how so?
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>>634512
>Surface level gameplay
Bubbles go brrr!
>Inner workings
Horrendous amount of factors, where moving a single slider by a single pixel can completely change the final result and a lot of long and short-term planning has to be taken, while you are also required to be familiar with at least few of the fan-made tables of properly matching things or have them memorised from experience to not get booted by bankrupcy within 30 minutes
>End-result gameplay
Bubbles go brrr!

God, how much I wish there was some middle ground between this, MGT and few similar dev tycoons. GDT is still the best of them all, but it's so fucking frustrating how shallow the actual gameplay and interaction with it is.
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>>636095
Speaking of which:
Mad Games Tycoon, where there is dozens of extra features, jobs and rooms, so you genuinely feel like going from a single, indie dev shitting out ASCII game over a weekend into a video company giant employing 200+ people to deliver over two years an AAA title...
... but it's so fucking easy and brain-dead, it's virtually a casual game, to the point where I gifted it to my retired mother as "more complex" game to her standard, casual-tier fodder and she mastered it without even checking for a wikia in few days.
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>>634512
Behold my might and despair

>>636095
>>636099
The problem I've got with this kind of games is that you absolutely must keep growing. You are not allowed to stop at any specific size, unless that size is the end-game huge game dev company doing nothing but triple As.
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>>634512
Battle brothers
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>>635999
Best answer
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>>636073
>Drawbridge raised!
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>>634512
Those old school Russian RTTs like blitzkrieg and sudden strike
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>>636437
patrician
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>>636073
There's a shitton of simulation and jobs and systems and fluff but all you really need is a tiny plot of plump helmets, a still and a bridge to overcome any challenge the game throws at you. The difficulty for new players comes from battling the UI and the seemingly daunting number of options. Half of which turn out to be just cute gimmicks where you can watch your dwarves shit out randomly generated descriptions that don't really do anything.
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>>636484
imagine being such a faggot that you hide behind a bridge lmao
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>>634512
Victoria 2
>dozens of mechanics and shit to keep track ofg
>actual gameplay is pretty much always boosting bureaucrats, then intellectuals then craftsmen. Recover your cores, form your union, take colonies
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>>636504
Don't use the f word Toady and work on your fucking game for once, you've promised us actually threatening sieges 12 years ago. Literally 12 years ago.
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>>636515
Truth right here.
There's some zany shit you can do but once you git gud at the game every nation on the planet boils down to these essential steps.
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>>636560
There is, however, a significant difference between nations:
1) Are they civilised
2) Are they in Old World
So in reality, we've got 3 different types of nations: new world (vanilla doesn't offer uncivilised new world), old world civilised and old world uncivilised. That's it. And once the unciv go civ (which is what any human player will do), they play like every other old world civilised
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>>636550
By my second gameplay i reached 150 dwarves (the default limit?), rich enough to invite the king, build a private well, almost breach into the !!FUN!!, and get bored lmao. If siege is really as non threatening as you say maybe i really have no reason to come back.
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>>636550
>>636573
literally just stop using drawbridges, don't remove all the risks from the game and then complain it's too easy
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>>636577
>Unless you shot yourself in the knee, the game offers no challenge
I bet you also play CK2 as deliberately inbred dwarf
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>>636582
clearly the game is just not for you
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>>636589
>Nooo! Stop solving problems! Start dying already! Why aren't you a failure!
Clearly, you are a meme-spewing retard
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>>636592
here's your (You)
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>>636597
Said the guy doing the "DF is for dying and failing" routine for quick fix of attention. Did corona isolation really made you this fucking desperate for human interaction, faglord?
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>>636577
>just don't use drawbridges
>just don't use moats
>just don't use flood chambers
>just don't use dodge kill pits
>just don't use traps
>just don't use armor
>just don't use weapons
>No items, wrestlers only, FINAL DESTINATION
Fuck off. If you have to actively avoid every single defensive measure given to you just so you don't trivialize all invasions, you have a design problem. Fucking Toady is aware of this, yet you aren't.
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>>634512

Any TBS with RPG mechanics. you may -

Carefully judge every situation and allocate resources and manpower to succesfully stave off threats and complete objectives

or

Roflstomp with your one overleveled omega-death unit of doom


There's absolutely no middle ground with these kinds of game. Smart devs will try to add exhaustion mechanics, heavily favor rng or force you to split your troops. It never works, period. Most it does is force you to raise a few instead of a single unit.

Nis had the right idea with their autistic gameplay. Don't bother with strategy and force players to level up to 9999.
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>>636603
>just don't use drawbridges
>just don't use moats
>just don't use flood chambers
>just don't use dodge kill pits
>just don't use traps
>just don't use armor
>just don't use weapons
Yes.
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>>636612
Consider suicide
>>
Why do DF fags always lose their shit when someone mentions that their game is super easy once you get over the garbage UI? It's a fun game either way and if you want to challenge yourself by playing poorly that's perfectly fine, but this constant pretending that it's some kind of super hardcore game is just sad.
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>>634512
Every paradox game
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>>636623
It comes from the memes. The game was carried almost entirely on the power of memes about dying, gitting gud and what not. And there is a whole lot of whinny faggots who took those memes at face value and as result get butthurt when you point out the game is piss-easy. Bonus points if they are newfags and/or genuinely incompetent, so they got extra butthurt over own ineptitude
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>>636642
Rimworld is legitimately more difficult
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>>636623
>>636642
I keep saying DF will be a thing on steam for one week them everyone will return to rimworld.
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>>636256
>The problem I've got with this kind of games is that you absolutely must keep growing. You are not allowed to stop at any specific size, unless that size is the end-game huge game dev company doing nothing but triple As.
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>>636849
Took me a while to realise what you are even going at.
I just would be glad if I was allowed to stay as mid-sized company doing mid-sized games, not the game having an actual script to punish me for not delivering triple As and tanking my sales and ratings.
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>>636974
But now you can definitely understand how an entire philosophy and worldview can be baked into a game's mechanics, yes?
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>>636983
That never was a problem to grasp. It simply took me a while what your pic related is supposed to be.
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>>636434
why don't you just not do it then lol? are you a min-maxing nigger who doesn't know how to have fun?
>>636792
go write your new book, tynan. neither game is that difficult unless you're a literal inbred who can't read or think. oh boy i sure love killboxes and drawbridges! why dont i just make a locked room filled with wooden chairs and light them on fire? once you get the gist of each game, they're relatively easy and allow you to create your own challenges i.e. not use killboxes or drawbridges.
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>>636604
Came to post this.

The so called "RPG mechanics", specially level up mechanics, just don't work with strategy games. I don't mind limited upgrades through equipment or promotions, but unlimited leveling is a game breaker.
To be fair, I think RPG mechanics suck for any game that requires any sort of skill, may the game be action or turn based.

Said that it's arguably the best way to implement difficult. Those games allow a disciplined player will be able to completely customize his difficulty by giving him freedom to choose his handicaps(such as not using certain characters, equipment, etc). Of course this sucks because you limit the amount of content you get despite paying for the full game.
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>>637398
Imagine getting angry, because people are having fun wrong
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>>637398
>The only real way to have fun with DF is failing!
Lmao @ u
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>>637610
>>637648
lrn2read
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>>637398
The fact that you can make the game harder by intentionally playing poorly doesn't make it a hard game, which is the whole point. DF is so easy that breaking it doesn't require any exploits or obscure strategies, just common sense, so any player will figure it out without even really trying. The only actual challenge in DF is learning how the UI works, after that any "challenge" is purely self-imposed.

Claiming that you can make it fun if only you ignore the things that work is just a sad cope.
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>>637701
where did i make the claim that dwarf fortress is hard again? i specifically say neither game is difficult, retard.
also, why would you not just play the game how you want to have fun? if i want to make an army of wrestlers to defend my fortress, i guess since i'm ignoring weapons that i'm just coping. why would you play it in a way that isn't fun? how is this not common sense? i don't know.
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>>637745
>where did i make the claim that dwarf fortress is hard again
You continously talk smack about people who "cheapen" it by playing reasonably and applying basic common sense to it, as if they were doing some travesty by not failing and not creating their own problems. This reeks with "muh hard" and "muh git gud", missing entirely the point that those people did git gud.
You are the standard, generic, sad faggot who plays some game for own self-validation, only to be told there is zero actual challenge to it and have the equally predictable meltdown about people playing it "wrong".
Get a fucking life already.
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>>636604
I always thought experience should be gained armywide and you should be capped to one level per mission for challenge purposes. Only problem with that is it makes the progression really boring, so you wonder why you'd have a level system at all, and you might as well remove the leveling system at that point and go with promotions only.
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>>638103

>experience should be gained armywide
>it makes the progression really boring

That's pretty much the big issue here, yeah. The only way to solve these issues seems to be removing mechanics until it's barely an rpg anymore.
Advance Wars Dual Strike had some features where you upgraded your commander instead of your units which had some potential, but that game doesn't really have rpg mechanics so it just goes to show.
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>>638244
I think you could retain the RPG format while still enhancing strategy, but I don't think the game would resemble itself once you were done.

>Remove levels, units still gain exp
>Exp is used to promote to more advanced classes or switch classes, being consumed in the process to prevent easily shuffling troops to whatever class you want every fight
>More advanced and specialized classes gain experience slower so they have a harder time switching classes, basic jobs gain exp faster
>Basic jobs have a wide array of weapon types available, advanced jobs have better stats and unique skills but a laser focus on their chosen role
>Tank and heavy melee units exert a zone of control that prevents enemy movement in adjacent squares, forcing more mobile units to take a longer path around them or fight them (Flying units ignore this)
>Default ranged attack distance is 2-3 for bows and other ranged weapons
>Some mages have a 1-2 range, some have a 2-3 like bows
>Healing magic is weaker or passive, can't instantly restore units to full health, have to rotate them out to bring them back up
>Weapons have lower durability but can be repaired between missions, you now have few uses of your best weapons per map but can continue to use them over the course of the campaign without breaking them constantly
>Can decide between few, very strong weapons for high potency but poor staying power or weaker, more durable weapons to stay in the fight longer
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>>637891
jesus christ, the projection. i simply said if you don't enjoy playing it that way, don't. why are you so butthurt about such simply, shitty advice that anyone could figure out?
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>>635997
It's one of the few single player games where you legitimately have to be thinking several turns ahead. You have to end Turn 1 with a plan for Turn 5, and you can because there's virtually no RNG in battles. But at the same time, you only have 3 units and nothing about it is especially complex.
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>>639000
nice digits
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>>634512
Project Hospital isn't deep at all. It just has an obtuse UI
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>>636623
>but this constant pretending that it's some kind of super hardcore game is just sad.
The thing is, it USED to be a hardcore game, but has gotten progessively easier as time goes on. Remember when indoor farming wasn't possible in winter? And outdoor farming didn't exist at all?

>>636642
>The game was carried almost entirely on the power of memes about dying, gitting gud and what not.
Boatmurdered and its kind started the memes. It was never THAT difficult, but it was harder than today.
The problem was as soon as the game went into 3D terrain, many of the difficulty aspects of the final 2D version (0.23.130.23a) were completely dropped or became very limited...

2D: Cave-ins for any (unsupported) area that's a square 7*7 tiles or larger.
3D: Cave-ins for "floating" things only. 16*16 tile open space? Sure!

2D: No medical features. Dwarf gets gimped means an inevitable insanity and/or death.
3D: Crutches, splints, sutures, bone doctors... It still doesn't work right, but at least it exists!

2D: Mountain features like the cave river, chasm and lava river were perpetual mundane threats until pacified by killing everything. The water well is a literal spawn-point for these invasions.
Early 3D: Features were never assured (unless you did an insane 16x16 embark; RIP framerate) and many of them had populations that would never properly respawn from map edges or would be killed simply by spawning at the wrong location (many lizard men fell down the cave river end-chasm, or simply *splat* at a deep enough waterfall)
Current 3D: You get 3 boring ass lateral caverns you can literally wall off at the map border and completely ignore the infinite waves of forgotten faggotry. The lava lake can be blocked in various ways and the demon pits can be walled off to stop the invasion. Piss. Easy.
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>>640977
Evaluating half-finished game that literally gets added new features on weekly basis for its difficulty is fucking retarded.
Consider pic related. Earliest builds were a murderfest, not due to intended difficulty, but because whole lot of elements wasn't working properly and various other features, that were planned from the start, weren't implemented yet at all. The devs eventually had to address it at mid point of developing the game, because part of their playerbase (game was in open beta for like 3 years) started to bitch and moan about "muh casuals", missing the memo the reason the rifle can't hit shit is a faulty script, not planned feature.
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>>636484
this
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>>636095
cringe also this game is literally just about setting a slider to the correct number
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>>641478
Nta, but read OP
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>>641430
>Evaluating half-finished game that literally gets added new features on weekly basis for its difficulty is fucking retarded.

DF is 15 years old
DF updates about once every 6-16 months (except for that one time where it was 2 years)
Toady has no incentive to actually finish his baby project.
Toady will continue to build bare-bones "framework" for content that will never exist.
The game will become increasingly simulationist until no fantasy "story generator" remains in it to tell a story.

> but the game will never simulate proper cave-ins based on geological features and physical properties of stone, because that would cause CPUs to melt





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