[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vm / vmg / vr / vrpg / vst / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / pw / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / vt / wsg / wsr / x / xs] [Settings] [Search] [Mobile] [Home]
Board
Settings Mobile Home
/vst/ - Video Games/Strategy

[Advertise on 4chan]

Name
Spoiler?[]
Options
Comment
Verification
4chan Pass users can bypass this verification. [Learn More] [Login]
File[]
  • Please read the Rules and FAQ before posting.
  • There are 105 posters in this thread.

08/21/20New boards added: /vrpg/, /vmg/, /vst/ and /vm/
05/04/17New trial board added: /bant/ - International/Random
10/04/16New board for 4chan Pass users: /vip/ - Very Important Posts
[Hide] [Show All]


Janitor acceptance emails will be sent out over the coming weeks. Make sure to check your spam box!

Self-serve ads are available again! Check out our new advertising page here.


[Advertise on 4chan]


File: 1619658703484(1).png (86 KB, 1167x573)
86 KB
86 KB PNG
If I did this it'd be considered "blobbing" and bad sportsmanship but oh look there's a historical example and this is somehow not "blobbing" despite it being the same exact thing?
Why is the strategy community online so thin skinned?
>>
>>571674
Its blobbing, but its fine. Playing wide is equal to playing tall
>>
>>571674
>bad sportsmanship
The fuck are you talking about?
"Blobbing" is a critique of gameplay mechanics that only encourage the boring map painting play style.
In real life huge empires are doomed to implode sooner or later (mostly sooner).
>>
>>571762
/thread
>>
>>571674
Is there proof that the Mongols got to fucking Finland and the Kola peninsula? Seems like a bullshit map
>>
>>571762

While this would a cool mechanic having to deal with empire collapse, I imagine the vast majority of players would hate it
>>
>>571795
mongols themselves never got past the city of novgorod. but the novgorod state was made a tributary of the mongol empire, so the map incorporates the borders of the novgorod state which did extend into what we know as finland
>>
>>571762
This. It's a critique of Parashitulations gsg where they get easier and more shallow as you expand.
>>
>>571674
the mongols were blobbers why is this hard to understand?
just because it happened doesnt mean it wasnt blobbing
the difference is in game the mongol empire would still exist and probably have conquered the world centuries ago
>>
>>571674
Then it fractured. In most games, you'd be able to maintain this blob indefinitely.
>>
>>571812
The proper endgame is to project power through puppet countries. So the player has to maintain control over puppets, keep them strong enough to compete with puppets of other great/regional powers, but not strong enough to seek independence. Keeping this delicate balance via indirect means provides the player with distinct gameplay mechanics in early/midgame and endgame phases, keeping things fresh and preventing mindless map painting.
This is literally how it works in real life. This is also kinda how it works in Vic2 and CK2 (the latter has vassals that you have to keep in check).
>>
File: empires.png (190 KB, 454x438)
190 KB
190 KB PNG
>>571762
>In real life huge empires are doomed to implode sooner or later (mostly sooner).
?
>>
What website is this?
>>
>>571933
Honestly this is probably the biggest missing part of paradox grand strategy games. You have a more or less absolute state from day 1. If you had to deal with a lot of armies and territories being basically vassal states, blobbing might become incredibly difficult and dangerous.
>>
File: China.gif (1.51 MB, 556x537)
1.51 MB
1.51 MB GIF
>>571961
>China
China implodes every few centuries or so. They realized this happens so frequently they even made up an entire philosophical concept to explain it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynastic_cycle
>>
>>571978
>China implodes every few centuries or so.


Which is actually fairly robust for a multiethnic Empire. Russia collapses completely every 100 years on average, but as moist of its inhabitants were subsitence farmers in the past, it wasnt quite as noticable as with China.

Europe is just a constant unstable shitshow with changing allegiances and leading powers, has been that way even during the Roman Empire mostly.

Ameristan is really interesting, they are not old enough to even had a single cycle so far, and it looks like they are headed for babbys first collapse currently.
>>
>>571674
Are you going to let that blob to disintegrate after few generations
>n-n-no I-I ju-st just wanna bl-blob
ok blober
>>
>>571978
except its clearly growing over the centuries
>>
>>571978
Why werent any of the smaller kingdoms able to consolidate and make long-lasting small/medium sized countries like in Europe?
>>
>>572026
America isn’t collapsing. What’s happening right now is Burgers being overly sensitive drama queens as usual. Let’s keep in mind these are the same people who describe an event where five people got shot as a massacre.
>>
>>572092
But that is what they did.

The problem was that it resulted in constant, all encompassing and highly destructive constant warfare, which lead into the consolidation of the Empire instead as it as the only solution that did not result in constant bloodshed and famine.
Because China has had a much higher degree of Statedom than Europe, warfare was not comparable to the very limited clashes European Nations engaged inuntil the 19th century and more akin to a new WWI tier war every few years.
>>
>>572092
They didn’t want to. Why settle on ruling some medium sized kingdom if you can claim the the mandate of heaven and rule over everything?
>>
Blobbing would be ok if games actually had a decent empire disintegration mechanic. That Mongol Empire didn't last long.
>>
>>571961
Nigger, the US isn't even 250 years old and it's already on its last legs.
>>
>>571674
>Why is the strategy community online so thin skinned
unironically they're schizophrenic faggota indulging in alt history map painting fantasies
They will never be women
>>
>>572051
China is like Terminator.
He'll be back.
>>
>>572108
>warfare was not comparable to the very limited clashes European Nations engaged inuntil the 19th century and more akin to a new WWI tier war every few years.
there were some insanely fucked up wars in europe well before the 1800s
>>
>>572092
Europe has natural boundaries. Han Chinese society came from the part of china that was impossible to defend. because it was all just flat with a couple of rivers. That's why they built this giant wall, you see.
>>
>>571961
The US is going to implode in a few years, just like in Desu Ex
>>
For Paradox games, the only games I've played that can have countries spontaneously collapse were their experimental ones, like EU:R and Sengoku. Even then, those systems had issues and lots of people would consider it as ruining the game mostly because of the random chance associated with it.

In EU:R, if a general wins a battle, there's a chance some of his soldiers will begin to show more loyalty to him than to the central government (you). If enough soldiers do this, then the general may declare a rebellion. Instantly parts of your land and your military will switch sides, and the country will split, with both sides locked in a war. The thing is, there's no good way to handle the split, it's just kinda random who gets what.
>>
People have foreseen the collapse of america since the 60's. The country thrives on struggle. People dont realize how much of the world is in americas pocket. And i say this as a german.
>>
>>572308
Ignore the /pol/ posters. If America was going to collapse, it would have done it either 60 or 160 years ago.
>>
>>572308
It helps that America has some of the strongest democratic institutions in the world (probably after Europe), so it's not likely to fragment soon. Right now, we're more likely to go Imperial Rome and slowly transition into a monarchy, which would lay the foundation toward an eventual collapse in probably 200-300 years.

>>572051
That's likely because political control is growing over time, as states became better at administering more peoples and the disparate cultures in the region.
>>
>>572026

Would the Civil War count?
>>
>>572351
I think most historians would argue that it isn't.

Looking at the war from the most detached, analytical perspective, the war was caused by the north undergoing economic changes from agrarian to industrial, and the south trying to stay agrarian (which required an increase in slaves to keep step with the industrializing world around them). You wouldn't call this a collapse because the "new" economic system was able to win the eventual war between them and convert the South to its system. It was an economic change that brought a lot of violence, but the country is still here and its economy did manage to change.
>>
>>571961
America is 250 years old and already broke in half once. Plus it's probably on the way out. And China has shattered into a million pieces like a dozen times at least.
>>
>>572330
It helps that you have an entire continent to yourself with no real enemies.
>>
>>571762
As ruling methods and technology as well as the capability of outside threats improve, empires achieve a larger carrying capacity. Japan, China, the US, and EU all have clear unification trends. If one nation "imploded" it would immediately be imperialistically devoured into the other states. Every nation in the world would have to fracture simultaneously to reverse this trend.
>>
>>572330
>so it's not likely to fragment soon
Boomer retirement will drive the US into insanity in the next decade. The ongoing farce of the last decade is just setting the stage for the coming desperate totalitarian policies.
>>
>>571813
Mongols didn't even annex any former territory of Kievan Rus like shitty maps like pic related implies, they sacked cities like Moscow and Kiev, and installed a pro-Mongol prince who was willing to pay the annual tribute, but they didn't give a fuck about governance or anything else that happened there.
>>
>>571812
The ideal difficulty would make it so that, after reaching a certain size‒say size of Italy‒the more distant parts of you empire become autonomous nations (like colonies in EU4), who will no longer send you troops, levies/manpower, but only a fraction of tax, and they wouldn't hesitate to rebel you are weakened from war
>>
>>572301
>The thing is, there's no good way to handle the split, it's just kinda random who gets what.
Imperator fixed by giving every province a loyalty, with less than 33% are considered disloyal and will always join rebels and +66% will never, anything between a coin toss based on their chance so, 40% loyalty province has 60% chance of joining rebels and 65% loyalty has 35%.
>>
>>571812
try rtw bi
>>
>>572098
it's collapsing in the way that it's losing it's global hegemony. I don't think it will split up but it will no longer be the world police and the biggest economy in a few decades
>>
File: finnish_artillery.jpg (125 KB, 1183x741)
125 KB
125 KB JPG
>>571795
Yes, the Finns.
>>
>>572051
they have developed a clear concept to explain that there should be only one "china" and every time it collapses everyone tries to unify china and get the "mandate of heaven". when china is stable they can invade the borderlands and absorb them into china

europe didn't have a single unified polity since the roman empire and it's haven't been trying to do that. the germanic kingdoms that arose in the early medieval age were content with their own territory and would not try to become universal monarchs, the wars were often for border provinces at most
>>
>>571674
It's fine, so long as you stick with a succession law that's designed to fuck your empire over as soon as your current ruler dies.
>>
>>572505
yeah pretty much. it was a situation where you'd just give them their tribute, which might take the form of money, horses, soldiers, etc. As long as you did that and didnt interfere with trade routes, then they would leave you to your business. go against their mandate or undermine them, and they will kill every man woman and child in your lands. I think its interesting that genghis and kublai believed they had a divine duty to unite the disparate peoples of the world under one banner. merely gathering a bit of tribute wasnt what took them half way across the world. it was a quasi-religious mission to establish the pax mongolica. before i read about this, i always assume the pax mongolica was a side effect of senseless brutality, but it was all much more calculated and ideological than you might think.
>>
>>572561
its not really that america is diminishing, but that other powers are growing. we're shifting out of the post cold-war unipolar world which was never a sustainable situation in the first place. i dont think its accurate to call that a collapse.
>>
>>571674
Geacron's maps are really shitty and oversimplified, in reality much of that land was loosely-aligned tributaries, near-empty steppe, and after Genghis' death in 1227 the Empire was already divided into various separate Uluses which only imperfectly cooperated with each other
>>
>>572505
To be fair these steppe empires often considered you a part of themselves, if you payed tribute to them. Their concepts of statehood differed from our sedentary understanding.
>>
>>572092
Because if China didn't get it's shit together and united by itself in time, someone from the steppes swooped in and did it for them. Europe has the Rus and the Middle East as a buffer, so they were able to clown around with little consequences.
>>
>>572108
>warfare was not comparable to the very limited clashes European Nations engaged inuntil the 19th century
I know what you mean and you're broadly right about most warfare between antiquity and the industrial era
But it got crazy, the 2nd Punic war inflicted WW1 level casualties on Roman Italy and the 30 years war killed a quarter of the population of Central Europe
>>
>>572620
no, it is diminishing. same thing that happened to other imperial powers in decline is happening to america, namely, financialization of it's economy. same thing went on with brits, the dutch and the genoese before they lost their empires
>>
>>571972
geacron.com
>>
>>572649
The Middle East wasn't so much a buffer as its own set of problems. When your "buffer" expands all the way up to Vienna bent on adding your continent to their conquests, it's not a buffer.
>>
>>572413
Bismarck said something to the effect of "the US is surrounded on the north and south by weak neighbors and the east and west by fish". Pretty good strategic location imo.
I wouldn't be surprised if a future empire that grew out of America's collapse didn't just conquer everything from the Arctic to the Darien Gap.
>>
>>572612
>merely gathering a bit of tribute wasnt what took them half way across the world. it was a quasi-religious mission to establish the pax mongolica
It was unironically defensive imperialism, e.g. Genghis didn't want to invade Iran, but to reopen the silkroad, but then Kharmaits killed his envoy, leaving him little choice but to respond
>>
>>571674
>labeling the nig “empires”
>>
Macedonia, Ottomans, Mongols, all empires that expanded fast without regards about management or culture crashed hard. The only game I ever experienced a total colapse like that was Knights of Honor.
>>
>>572092
There is nothing else to conquer, except your rival states. Korea and Tibet were a bunch of mountain rednecks, the north was infinite horses and their angry nomad symbiotes and the south was thick jungle.

Why put effort into ruling over anything but the extremely wealthy and civilized Chinese core region?
>>
>>571674
Nobody liked the Mongols.
>>
>>571674
historically incorrect
>tuumaakaan ei anneta tappelematta
>>
>>572308
America =! US-based globalism. America itself is deader than disco, but the US will remain the "hammer of the world" for a long time.
>>
>>572680
>he 30 years war killed a quarter of the population of Central Europe

The 30 years War was sepcial, as it was in part caused by unprecedented population growth, leading to countless "surplus" people who joined those fuckhuge mercenary armies.

Also, the vast majority of those people died as a result of exposure and crime, two consequences that arise from forming massive armies without having the logistics and organizational structure to actuall supply and order them.

>>572351
It didnt involve any significant collapse, you only temporarily split into two states and settled the matter in a scant few years.

>>572308
>The country thrives on struggle.

A country which finds its origins in settling endless stretches of unimaginably rich lands with only a handful of savages with bows as enemies. Struggle alright lol.

America has extended its economical system across the world, but right now that is reaching its limits, and this is not comparable by far to any people (which people exactly? Never heard that) who cllaimed america will collapse in the 60s.
their economy is terminally, albeit slowly ,fucked.
I say this as a German - stop taking Spaghetti Western seriously.

And also, South Western Germany isnt "the World", you have cucked hardcore for anyone who conquered you since Roman times.

>>572270
Like?

>>572330
>we're more likely to go Imperial Rome

Your Masonic founders loved their little Roman larp. However, you should learn to disningiush between using someone elses symbology and terminology and actually being him.
>>
>>571961
China really isn't that big. Majority of their population is concentrated in the eastern and southern portions. Everything outside of that is empty.
>>572026
>multiethnic
China is hardly multiethnic. 90% of people in China are Chinese (either Han, Cantonese, etcetera.) or are a minority that live in the middle of fucking nowhere like Tibet of the Uyghurs.
>>
>>573093
>you should learn to disningiush between using someone elses symbology and terminology and actually being him.
I was referring to how a steady decline in democratic/republican institutions that would lead into a dictatorship or monarchy could occur. It's very much possible in the current political climate.
>>
File: Europa Universalis 4.jpg (223 KB, 680x772)
223 KB
223 KB JPG
The entire blobbing debate is just spawned from 2 things. Whining Vic 2 players who complain about any expansion and just wanna afk as numbers grow and people who complain that outside of warfare and diplomacy (wich is just used to warfare better) EU4 doesnt have much else to offer. Vic 2 you can build factorys and pretend you are interacting with pops by pressing a button above a province every few years, CK2/3 you are constantly managing internal affairs if you want to or not. But if you do not engage with other states either diplomatically or militarilly you got nothing to do anymore (outside of colonization).
I personally dont think EU4 needs to change since its the best paradox game despite having almost no internal managament since interacting with other countrys is much more fun then "interacting" with your pops in Vic2 since you actually got more mechanics to interact with then "encourage laborors" and having the population remain more static then EU4s culture screen.
>>
File: putin monkey.png (157 KB, 303x335)
157 KB
157 KB PNG
>>572905
>Ottomans crashed hard
>500 years is now crashing hard
>>
>>572905
To be fair, the Seleucids managed to hold together for a while
>>
ok, what are some ways you can make a maximum-extent empire without turning into hardcore blob or boder gore?

For example, historical Spain/Habsburg-ia was (only some of) Iberia, the low countries, a little dingleberry remnant of Burgundy, Austria, the boot of Italy, etc.. What a mess.
What would a non-blobby Spain look like? Just Iberia? Am i just gonna ignore the last third of Spain/Castille's mission tree?

Or what would a non-blobby France look like? modern-day borders plus pushing up to the Rhine?
The historical Ottoman Empire was also ridiculously blobby

To contrast, it's pretty easy to see where the natural borders of a nice looking Indian empire would be, and its much larger than anything you can make in Europe or the Middle East that isnt also ugleh
>>
>>573200
where can I buy the EU board game?
>>
File: eusnek.jpg (828 KB, 1920x1080)
828 KB
828 KB JPG
>>573225
>aesthetically pleasing blob contained by natural borders
Severe beta civ energy.
Real empires push past rivers and mountains in spaghettilike tendrils, bordering as many nations as possible, just to flex.
>>
>>571812
>game is shit because majority of the population are neurotypical plebs who like to "have fun"
many such cases
when will it end?
>>
>>571961
Unironically the United States does not have that much time left and China has imploded many times throughout history.
>>
>>572351
>Would the Civil War count?
No, because it was more of a purge/growing pain of a growing Yankee Empire than something that immediately wreaked it into anarchy
>>
>>571961
China puts a fuckton of effort into repressing their citizens freedom of thought man

They're doing more than anyone else to maintain national order and you're out here talking shit
My man Pooh bear WORKS for his mindless drone population
>>
>>571961
not empires, retard
>>
>>571717
I still don't know what playing tall means
>>
>>571674
What was the name of this site? It was pretty damn good.
>>
>>572855
they would have expanded there eventually no matter what. killing the envoys just bumped them to the front of the queue.
>>
>>573473
Spending money on developing your cities to get more money instead of spending money conquering more cities to get more money to conquer more cities. 4 cities making 1000 each vs 20 cities making 200 each
>>
>>573117
That's still like 100 million non-Han. They'd be comfortably in the top 20 countries by population by themselves.
>>
I genuinely dont understand how people find playing tall fun, do you just dev shit up all game? how is that fun?
>>
>>571674
i like games where blobbing is the goal, but the obstacles to it are significant, like inheritance splitting the empire apart, revolts, etc. ck2 is ok about it but often I have to play bad on purpose to get it to work that way
>>
>>572413
The US is ridiculously overpowered when you think about it. If you threw the its natural resources, geography, strategic position, and current dominance into a strategy game people would call it unfair, and rightly so.
>>
>>573540
That not even accurate though. Expanding doesn't prevent you from investing money to develop your lands, and in many cases it actually helps you. Assuming you win with relatively light cost, the money you get from your new land can just be funneled into development. It's probably a lot less like the example you give and much more like 4 cities making 1000 each vs 16 cities making 200 each + 4 cities making 600 each. Sure you get less wealth out of your core 4, but you'll end up with a higher overall gain which then creates a snowball effect since now you can invest that extra money into more development and expansion. People like to pretend that "tall" and "wide" are 2 separate paths, but really you want a healthy mix of both.
>>
>>573641
it depends, as you expand the opportunity costs start to increase.
>>
>>571674
people sperging against blobbing are homosexuals who would prefer to roleplay than to play a fucking map game
>>
If you can take and hold clay and it is strategically feasible to do so
you do it
why is this so hard to understand?
this is medieval times, the notions of silly things such as "self-determination" hadn't been hashed out yet, the land and people are your personal playthings
>>
>>571674
The problem is not blob itself but the stability of it. In EU4 once nation (either player or AI) gets the blob rolling they never collapse, never split they just snowball forever. (Only exception being Ming wich is specifically progrmamed to do so. Sometimes.)
>>
>>573876
Because each province you conquer gives you more tax and manpower, while rebel size remains the same.
Historically, the imperial field armies shrink when the empires expanded, because they were forced leave people to garrison provinces
>>
>>573234
https://www.aegirgames.com/product/deluxe-edition-europa-universalis-the-price-of-power/
>>
>>573868
Last warning.
>>
>implying mongols were real
>horse people
Lmao
>>
Blobbing isn't the problem, the problem is how hilariously easy it is in these types of games to hold together a ridiculously large multiethnic multi-religious empire
>>
>>571961
>those dotted lines
don't you see they're already cracking? dumb anon
>>
>>572905
>Ottomans
>crashed hard
>literally survived a thousand fucking years and only started declining after getting jumped on by the habsburgs, spanish, russians, polish and venetians simultaneously
So, which country in Roachlands's butthurt area-of-effect are you from?
>>
File: v2_42.jpg (667 KB, 1920x1080)
667 KB
667 KB JPG
>>571674
>>
>>571674
>Game has no penalty for blobbing and thats a good thing
>t.u/mappainter2006

>look at muh heckin historic blobberino
>ignore that it was bunch of puppet states
Literal child, but what can you expect from a reddit paradrone.
>>
>>573924
So maybe a manpower/garrison dynamic like from HoI4 can be transplanted into EU4, where unless your lands are accepted culture or cultural union, you have to devote X amount of manpower to holding it down depending on how recently you conquered it or how much they accept the legitimacy of your rule etc. and if you blob too hard you just have no men left for standing armies
>>
>>574565
I mean, that's an interesting mechanic and probably fitting HOI4, but for anything prior to it, I think it would just reinforce EU4's gradual blobs.

Again, I'm of the opinion that after a certain size army size should stop growing. In EU4 I would solve this a simple solution:
you only get manpower from the capital's region, otherwise you get only tax
>>
>>572505
“Tribute” “Taxes”
Same thing imo
>>
>>573641
IRL expansion was a huge investment that didn’t always payoff, and a bunch of useless expansions can and did bankrupt otherwise successful states/empires

How to do that in game would be make military costs much more extreme, sort of like mass mobilization in Vicky 2. So every war you either need to eat into savings, or take loans
>>
>>574605
Pretty solid idea. I'd tweak it a bit to only get manpower from cores, then make new cores much harder to place than just spending paper mana.
>>
>>574674
also civil governance
>>
>>574692
I see are new.
In EU3 cores worked quite differently, the only way to make a score would be to hold a province for 50 years. Again, much like the HOI4 approach, this doesn't stop blobbing, it just stabilizes gradual blobbing.

I think my idea is a fairly good abstraction of reality, the conquerors will drain the wealth of the conquered and use the wealth to develop their home regions. Which is what Europeans did to the rest of the world.
>>
File: 4547.png (74 KB, 573x172)
74 KB
74 KB PNG
>>573641
>Assuming you win with relatively light cost, the money you get from your new land can just be funneled into development.
You are seriously underestimating the cost of warfare, read pic related, during Eddie III's time, the two-month siege exceeded the crown's annual revenues.
In order for the conquerors to finance their campaigns, they either had to:
>save up years in advance
>take loans (Plantagenets often took loans from cities)
>sack like hell
latter is probably hard to carry out, loot just isn't very available in most of Europe, something like loot worth of 600 000 silver pounds was looted from Constantinople in 1204, which for England would only be 20 year's revenue. Constantinople had 500 000 people, so relative to that and considering that only a handful of cities in Europe had over 10 000 people, it is fair to say that most cities probably would only have around 8 000 silver pounds, not enough to cover campaign cost.
>>
>>574689
>>574751
Yes, and now you reach the second point of the problem: how much money does it take to invest/develop your lands by a significant amount? Building roads, schools, and hospitals also cost a fairly significant amount of money depending on how much you add and the quality. It's also much less know how much an investment or project will help boost the wealth of your nation, while things like conquest are much easier to quantify. My point still stands that expansion and development/investment aren't mutually exclusive and expansion is still usually the best option for increasing your nation's wealth in the long-term.
>>
>>574784
It also begs the question how would you actually develop a country? Most EU4 buildings like workshops, temples, marketplace, wouldn't be built by the state, but by local communities. That's too micro-scale, state would invest in major things like roads, universities, abbeys. I think they would invest most money on patronage like you would offer to fund projects of some experimental architect, who would then invest a way to shit cheaper and better, which would then gradually spread all over your country and improve the qyality of life for everybody attracting more people.
>>
>>574784
I don't really care, i like to have small borders when i play so thats why i play tall when i can
>>
>>573641
nigger he's talking about in video games not real life holy shit
>>
>>574457
not even remotely accurate
>>
>>571961
Anon...
>>
>>574834
Yeah, I pretty much agree. That's usually my biggest issue when games try to tackle stuff like development. A lot of it ends up feeling very arbitrary since the devs try and simplify all the moving parts that might actually be happening, and what you're often left with is a button and a number that tells you you've improved without anything else really seeming to change. But I think that's partially why games should try and improve on government/administration gameplay, since that directly leads to both better tall gameplay and better wide gameplay (essentially it helps create natural incentives and limits to expansion).

>>574913
That's fine, you can play how you like. I'm just offering my thoughts.

>>575011
I am talking about video games, you illiterate fucking ape. The first mention of any real life shit was from 2 of the posts who replied to me.
>>
>>571961
I give them each 100 years.
US republic decayed into current oligarchy over the past 50 years. Civil War 2 is already happening in some forms.
China as it exists on that map is less than 100 years old. A flash in the pan that can't currently manufacture rations that dont give their soldiers food poisoning.
>>
>>573258
jesus christ
i love it
>>
I have an insanely hot take: even if America collapses, it's not going to be a permanent Roman Empire-style breakup, but a temporary Chinese-style one. Geography at least east of the Rockies and a great pathway to the west in the classic Oregon Trail; centuries of economic, linguistic, and cultural ties; westward migrations of a still white-majority population that's actually AMAZING at immigrant assimilation; and surprisingly strong civic, political, and patriotic values to me make it feel like America's basically the Western civilization's or at least western hemispheric's China equivalent - easy to unify again based on all those factors that ENCOURAGE unity, not sticking apart. Yes, it doesn't seem so currently both from "how could it ever collapse" or "everyone hates each other" views, but China's not just gone through periods of collapse leading to long bouts of unity they consider themselves one even in disunified periods, but also periods of isolation and foreign jingoism alike. Like it or not, America is going to stick around as an eternal realm of a sort like China, Iran, and other big stable nations.
>>
>>575287
USA was an oligarchy from the start. You literally could not even originally vote unless you were a wealthy land owner.
>>
>>574605
That's pretty bullshit. France in 1700's was definitely drafting soldiers from Occitanie despite Paris being capital.
>>
>>575720
>That's pretty bullshit. France in 1700's was definitely drafting soldiers from Occitanie despite Paris being capital.
And my solution wouldn't prevent it, because in EU4 Occitanie is part of France-region
>>
>>575722
Capital's region is just Île-de-France. Do you actually mean accepted culture or cored land?
>>
File: Region_map.png (698 KB, 5632x2048)
698 KB
698 KB PNG
>>575722
I'm >>575722
Or did you mean actual region aas the game defines it? As in pic related?
Tahta does make sense for France but not for many other "border" countries Like Prussia or Punjab. Not even speaking about empires like Quing.
>>
>>575730
>>575735
as I said, region in-game, not areas, Ile-de-France is an area?
>Tahta does make sense for France but not for many other "border" countries Like Prussia or Punjab. Not even speaking about empires like Quing.
How not? They will still tax from outside of their capital, and their capital regions are already so rich they will have plenty of manpower.
>>
>>575740
So you mean super-regions. That's still nonsense for some historical countries. i.e. Prussia.
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Europe_central_regions
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Europe_eastern_regions
Their lands are split between those two super-regions.
Ottomans would be forced to recruit either from Balkans or Anatolia etc.
I understand you point but the solution does not work in current EU4 system.
>>
>>575740
Alternatively, you could introduce overlapping regions, which would allow for multiple capital regions
For example, Constantinople could be part of both Anatolia and Greece, which would allow its controller to get manpower from both.
So, things like Warsaw could be part of both Ruthenia and Poland
>>
>>575754
no, I mean regions
hiarchy is:
area (e.g. Normandy)
region (e.g. France)
super-region (e.g. Western Europe
continent)
continent
>>
>>575765
You posted super-region so I was confused. That's even worse. It would affect too many countries in such a arbitrary way. Cored land or accepted culture at least make snese.
>>
>>575772
not it doesn't, it makes no sense that if France conquers Syria and holds it for certain amount of time Syrians could be recruited in France
see additional suggestions >>575762
Again, you could do what Napoleon did to maxime manpower, Napoleon created puppets states in all regions but France
>>
>>571812
Maybe if rebellion mechanics were actually fun and challenging, players wouldn't hate it so much.
>>
File: 1528151056934.jpg (25 KB, 692x652)
25 KB
25 KB JPG
>>574449
>>
>>575786
>it makes no sense that if France conquers Syria and holds it for certain amount of time Syrians could be recruited in France
But that's exactly what Ottomans did.
>>
>>575809
did they? I'm fairly sure 90% of Ottoman army were turks/greeks
>>
>>575820
As far as I'm aware they recruited troops from all eyalets. Egypt eyalet was more independent but still provided soldiers for general cause (unless they were trying to fight Ottomans themselves).
Yeah that's another thing you don't see in pdx games when I think about it.
>>
>>575020
The Great Turkish War, also knows as the War of the Holy League you historically illiterate slavnigger. Concluded with the Karlowitz treaty where Austria acquired Hungary. What's inaccurate here?
>>
>>571795
The people who live there now are evidence enough
>>
>>571961
as other anon pointed out, it's a function of technology

2000 years ago it was hard to keep a nation the size of a modern state together, due to information processing power and information travel time, as well as the physical time it took to deploy forces meaning decentralisation had to be built in
>>
>>575527
oh you mean unless you were a full citizen who had something invested in the country itself?

yeah. representative based constitutional republics are not the same as mob-rule pure democracies.

letting every random shitter vote is part of what got them into this mess. people just vote themselves free shit and it all starts spiraling inwards until death.

but now there is a political caste that just openly brags about manipulating the elections into whatever they want.
>>
>>574449
kek
>>
>>576161
The part where the Ottoman Empire was supposedly founded in 922 AD.
>>
>>576606
That's what you're anal about? Fuck off autist
>>
File: 1593909961613.png (142 KB, 392x944)
142 KB
142 KB PNG
>>572620
Read 'Fate of Empires' by Glubb. America matches all the symptoms of an empire in decline.
>>
>>574834
The entire economy in EU4 is so abstracted desu, it needs pops like Vicky or maybe even just stellaris to make any sense and not just be development mana numbers
Eu3 at least had population in a province which taxes came from
>>
>>571674
You aware this blob fell apart seconds after Genghis died?
>>
>>576677
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/every-gsg-game-should-have-population-numbers.1471822/
>In this time period (and also in Imperator's time period), population has no real reason to be in the game. This is because population at this point in time grew extremely slowly. Until the industrial revolution, population was limited by food production, which was in turn limited by farmland. When population did grow, it was either because new land was being cleared, or because there was a technological advance that improved land productivity. This is represented perfectly fine by the development mechanic in CK3 IMO.

For whatever reason, Paradox fanbase is allegic to the idea of pops.
>>
>>576755
they're talking about ck3, which is a completely different context than the eu series
for every person that doesn't want pops there's someone who wants every single possible occupation or demographic difference represented by a pop in the game, even when there'd be no point to it (like in ck2)
>>
>>571674
Imperial overstretch is what kills empires. If a game has blobbing, at least place some mechanics so that it gets increasingly difficult to sustain such a huge landmass
>>
>>576781
>even when there'd be no point to it (like in ck2)
disagree, there would be a point. In context of CK2/3, I don't see class or migration mechanics, but it would very important that that every would have a pop with culture and religion, so that conversion would work properly, i.e instead of converting a province, you would gradually convert pops, so that converting people in sparsely populated Iceland would be faster than converting densely populated provinces in Italy.
>>
>>574022
>for free
Nigger
>>
>>576804
both contexts you're talking about are as simple as making whatever conversion progress bar there is in the new one have a modifier for economy and how many holdings are in the county, making pops would be overkill and not really serve any significant purpose besides seeing a little drawn human next to the progress bar
>>
>>576755
>This is because population at this point in time grew extremely slowly. Until the industrial revolution, population was limited by food production, which was in turn limited by farmland. When population did grow, it was either because new land was being cleared, or because there was a technological advance that improved land productivity.

Or most of the people were killed by genocidal invaders, or died from a new disease.

I hate this logic, just because populations had natural ceilings, doesn’t mean they didn’t have lots of expansions and contractions.

Which in the near modern time, would be relevant, especially with how colonialism happened around the world, and the different forms it took.
>>
>>576788
>Imperial overstretch is what kills empires.
That’s definitely true, especially when the fastest way from point A-B was a guy on a horse.
One sort of arbitrary way to simulate this would be have orders take a certain number of ticks to be issued, with the delay getting longer the further from your capital the province is, this would cause far away parts of your empire to be “unresponsive” and harder to manage effectively, but allow core home regions to quickly mobilize for whatever reason.
Maybe pair this with a AI general/governor/viceroyal/vassal/district system so that they can handle it for you effectively without a delay, but it’s the AI, they might mess up your colony, but historically a bad governor could do dumb things and cause a ripple effect.
>>
>>576855
right? and it wasn't even relative gradual growth, Netherland's population went from 0.2 million to 0.95 million, meanwhile Scandinavia went from 1.1 million to 1.5 million.
>>
>>576876
i would give my left kidney and right bollock for paradox games to be actually good like this
>>
>>576876
I like this idea. But it would be hard to implement while keeping the game engaging.
>>
>>576876
the order delay thing seems like it'd be more of a bother than an engaging overexpansion mechanic, you'd get to a point where the game would kind of become a black box of picking commands and getting responses a couple in game months later with no real way to know what you're actually doing
i do like the giving ai characters a lot more autonomy idea though, especially when they're far away
i feel like it reflects a bit better how a lot of these conflicts and situations were just solved on the spot without waiting months for this big "central government" figure to answer, acting on imperfect information instead of being completely dependant on whatever political body led the country
>>
>>576907
It would be hard to balance, and the meta gamer types would hate it I imagine.
I would fit in with a RTS that’s actually trying to be more of a simulation.
In my dream you’d have this system in Victoria 2 and have it changed to normal when you get telegraphs and/or radio.

But PDX doesn’t even pretend to do simulations anymore so it’ll probably never happen
>>
>>576841
No, it wouldn't do you all these conversions processed takes several decades? Say, you conquer an infidel province and begin to convert it, game says converting it will take 30 years, but just as you only have 5 years left, your enemy conquers the province from you and all the progress vanished, it still has the same faith as 25 years prior, and there is no sign you tried converting it for 25 years at all. While I don't believe you could have converted most people of the province within 25 years, it is realistic to assume you have converted at least few thousand, and so your progress is not undone if you later retake the province.

Here is my pitch for super-simple pop system:

>each pop has only two attributes faith and culture
>each pop of your faith will contribute 100 levies
>each 20-year cycle the majority pop will reproduce
>pop can only grow if the province's development is < DEVELOPMENT × 10
>every time province is occupied by infidels 10% of wrong faith pops will die
>each 20-year cycle the majority faith pop will convert one randomly selected pop
>each 20-year cycle the majority culture pop will assimilate one random selected pop
>if minority pop shares faith or religion with the ruling lord, it cannot be converted the majority
>every time peasants revolt, all the revolting pops from the province will vanish
>when a player sends a councilor to assimilate or convert a province, each 10-year cycle random pop will be converted
>there is no migration

I cannot make it simpler than that.
>>
>>576927
You still didnt explain why this is needed, makes the gameplay better or makes the game any more fun.
>>
>>576632
In what ways?
>>
>>576964
he did as in it allows for conversion of both kinds to be more dynamic and allows differences to production/tax/unrest in a more gradual way
i still disagree with it being worth implementing in ck specifically, both for making the game a slight bit bloaty for something that to me is minor and because we don't need another system for paradox to mess up, but the reasons are there
>>
>>576964
1. conversion will become gradual, and offer more flexiablity
2. because revolting pops will vanish no matter the outcome revolt, each peasant will weaken your empire no matter how easily you defeat them
3. because 10% of infidels will die on occupation, frontier regions like Iberia will suffer, while regions like France will prosper
4. because only pops of your faith and culture give you levies, it is encouraging to steer your path of expansion in a certain direction
5. pops changing naturally will alter the balance of the world
6. it is fun to see demographics change, no century was demographically the same as the previous
>>
File: aFlagForOregon.png (24 KB, 945x567)
24 KB
24 KB PNG
>>575484
Truest take yet. Don't look forward to being conscripted by whatever warlord when this country collapses, though. At least our culture will stick around
>>
>>577008
>At least our culture will stick around
>our culture
Globohomo is what will rule in the US in a few decades, the founding culture is either dead or endangered depending on who you ask
>>
>>577027
The US has no culture, you guys worship shopping malls and discount coupons.
>>
>>574457
>1000 years
Anon you switched dimensions again, its not 2300 and the ottomans are dead since the 20th century.
>>
>>577041
>The US has no culture, you guys worship shopping malls and discount coupons.
What do you think Globohomo means?

The Frontier (modified English) culture that birthed the country was legit, and existed until the second half of the 20th century without a doubt. But it’s basically gone now, we agree on that
>>
>Le ebin blobbers
>>
Okay here is a tricky question. How would you ontroduce Vic 2 style pops to EU4 and not contradict the claims of any single country about who lived where when. Details like this can cost millions in sales so failure isnt acceptable in Europe or China.
>>
>>576755
forumposters will support everything that paradox does because their opinions don't extend past paradox dicksucking

I don't what population growth has to do with anything but having pops in CK3 would be good just to see the exact make-up of cultures and religions.
It would make minor religions and cultures more visible, for example you could see muslim, hellenic pagan and slavic pagan minorities in the Bynzantine Empire, also it would make conversion more interesting than just binary 'is it your culture/religion or not?'
If you wanted to convert counties you might have to send pops of your culture and religion from one of your core counties to another, slightly reducing the wealth of your core counties to make a trade-off.
>>
>>572092
Mandate of heaven means if any guy gets a substantial claim to it, all other smaller warlords would flock to him and gang up on dissidents (namely you) to kiss ass for a better position in the new government.
>>
>>577134
in other words, take mechanics from revamped Imperator and put them in other games
not entirely out of realm of possibility, seeing as that team has been spread to other teams in paradox
>>
>>575527
even Athens with its democracy didn't let retarded poorfags vote as they would only vote for free shit which is exactly what's happening now and what got us into this mess.
>>
>>577008
Thanks bro anon. Meant to expand on geography:

>east of the Rockies is the Intracoastal Waterway itself, and the Mississippi watershed's and eastern seaboard's tons of navigable rivers to the Appalachians and westward into the Great Plains alike for retardedly easy travel across the expanse of the nation
>also from the Rockies is flat land from that to the Atlantic outside the Appalachians, which have many natural water gaps and mountain passes already to make them easy to cross, much less manmade roads and canals built or proposed for even easier travel to where they may as well not exist at all
>the Oregon Trail is an amazing pathway through everything fertile and/or flat in those sections of the USA and everyone lives on it in those areas, making it easy to control/protect alike while providing Pacific access for valuable economic connections to the rest of the nation and Pacific Northwest alike

In many ways it makes China Proper's flat river valleys, Iran's plateau safety, even the Roman Empire's Mediterranean Sea travel look like a harder mode of play. Once you get a big chunk of America east of the Rockies under control like the eastern seaboard or the Mississippi River-Chicago Ship Canal waterway, you can steamroll everywhere. Assuming you have to if everyone's already speaking the same language, used to the same political system, and been trading with each other in a massive common market area for ages.

>>577027
>>577041
>>577057
>>577058
That base Anglo-American culture is STILL VERY real and VERY plentiful everywhere, but it's on a quiet period due to the current multicultural victim crap. Hey, I actually get and agree on some points they're making re: discrimination here and there, but the visible minorities would best to assimilate melting pot-style if fair is fair and some of their concerns are addressed. It's a supreme irony to foreigners they're just as American as whites. Just, well, black or yellow or brown-skinned.
>>
>>576964
For me, I'd actually like to see at least a relatively basic pop system for ck3. It doesn't have to be super fancy, it can literally just be a stat which affects the province. The benefits it would add to the game would be huge though, you can make diseases much scarier to deal with, scaling peasant revolts, you'd be encouraged to prevent vassal wars more often due to the negative effects on the population, you can implement some basic migration which makes certain regions way more prosperous over time, better represent the invasions and settlement of various groups, etc. I think development is a decent mechanic, but it's way too simplistic and basically just acts as a stat modifier 80% of the time. Just by adding "pops" as a stat for the province, you immediately increase the amount of things you can do with the game substantially. If you expanded further you could even hypothetically add mechanics where the quality of your knights and armies is determined by the number/wealth of you smith pops, or represent an agincourt-like scenario where a lot of minor noble pop deaths can seriously cripple your nation.

>tl;dr: pops are great for improving the difficulty/risks in a game, and enhances gameplay by giving the player more stuff to care about than just his immediate family
>>
>>575786
Napoleon spurred on German unification by drafting all the various Germanic states into his army and getting a lot of them killed in the process. But they realized they all had a lot more in common with each other than Frenchmen and Russians and thought that maybe if they had been unified from the start France wouldn’t have conscripted them to go die stupidly in a frozen hellscape.
>>
File: 1618331517293.gif (3.05 MB, 800x600)
3.05 MB
3.05 MB GIF
>>571961
Both America and China are on the verge of collapse.
America:
>facing crippling demographic collapse in the form of an increasingly unproductive and incompetent population
>facing ever more extreme factionalism and subversive groups
>ungreased political system and government that serve a small group and are burning truckloads of money
>large parts of its global network of allies, part of what allows it to be so dominant, are increasingly beginning to turn away from it
On the bright side, the first three issues could realistically be solved. It would almost certainly result in massive turmoil, but they could be solved without actual collapse. The last issue is only a problem insofar as it relates to US global dominance and hegemony. The US is more than capable of autarky if need be, or potentially even desired. The US also has a booming space sector, but that likely won't become relevant to this anytime soon.
China:
>facing crippling demographic collapse in the form of losing large portions of their working population and gaining lots of old people that will absorb money from the system
>facing terminal water scarcity and quality issues
>despite having many large trading partners, it has effectively no real allies, the moment the trade that China offers dries up so does the cooperation of other states
>environmental issues severely straining the infrastructure
On the bright side, this isn't China's first rodeo. It'll be bloody and terrible, but they'll come out the other side again. Unfortunately that's really all there is. Most of the worst problems are caused by the current government, but can't be fixed by replacing the government. The damage is already done.
>>575287
China is in the next thirty, I'd be surprised if the US lasted much longer than that as well.
>>572308
America thrives on a very different kind of struggle to the kind we'd see in the event of collapse.
>>
>>576684
>year 1250
That pic is post-Genghis. Though that empire broke in all but name a decade later.
>>
>>577411
>India‘s demographics look like a boner
lel
>>
>>572855
*killed his spies
>>
>>571978
this even leaves out the latest collapse, the warlord era and chinese civil war
>>
>>577411
I don¨t think US ca solve their demographic problems as you said. They might/will become another Mexico but I wouldn't call that solving demographic issue.
On the other hand I can't see China collapsing. Not that it doesn't have huge issues that should lead to turmoil but they also use tight state control in a form that was never present before in human history.
>>
File: 1605919486505.jpg (100 KB, 700x546)
100 KB
100 KB JPG
>>577546
>I can't see China collapsing.
>tight state control in a form that was never present before in human history.
China can't just solve their issues thanks to extreme totalitarianism. No level of stranglehold on your citizens will somehow give you abundant clean water or make up for a twenty percent dip in workers. The water issue is literally an existential threat to China itself that threatens to put a bullet in the head of the middle kingdom and permanently relegate them to some washed-up, barely habitable backwater. China's worker issue isn't as extreme, but it's still one of the biggest issues any nation on the planet faces. China's whole strategy has been whoring out their massive workforce to the rest of the world (that and IP theft) to undercut everyone else and drive trade to China. Even if they kill all the old people (which I wouldn't be surprised at) so that they don't have to worry about pensioners eating up all of their wealth, their workforce is still going to be too small to keep up their methods.
>>
>>577564
They can import workforce.
They can indeed kill off their old population.
As for the water idk. Some technological advance can help them at least partially improve the situation. Or they'll simply leave the poor in the north and wealthy will move to the south where it's still habitable.
>>
>>571674
Have you ever tried the "moving blob"?

I have devised this cunning strategy while I am currently playing as Ming China in EU3.

EU3 punishes you quite heavily for being too big, not that that's much of a problem for western nations, but for low tech Asian nations it can be fatal. You can expand for a while but then you get your shit pushed in later on by high tech western nations. So what I am doing is vassalising my way west across Siberia and south east asia, but also taking half dozen provinces or so for myself. As my advance continues I sell the eastern provinces to my vassals ( for pretty much nothing ) and replace them with new provinces taken near the front of the western advance. Effectively I have a small westerly moving blob. That way I can generate new troops near my advance and not worry about fucking revolts in my rear areas.

Presently carving my way through the unholy mess of the Timurid Empire. Its a fight against time though, I need to get into Europe before their tech makes my numbers useless.
>>
>>577411
In America's case, there is a possibility that your second and third points resolve each other, but there are just as many bad as good possible resolutions. The demographic problems are the most serious, since birth rates are falling and education is deteriorating at all levels.

Your evaluation of China also forgets that China has serious problems with corruption and innovation, which plague government and business there. Trade could dry up just because the Chinese government tries too hard to manipulate foreign firms.
>>
>>577574
>import workforce
Ah yes, and then China becomes Africa, since it's the only fucking region on Earth with positive population growth. The industrial revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for humanity.
>>
>>577574
>import workforce
The crime rates in literally any area undergoing demograpic change would like to have a word with you.
It's all well and good nabbing niggers for a cheap workforce until unga bunga starts raping your women and comitting other violent crimes.
>>
>>571674
>Why is the strategy community online so thin skinned?
Historical plausibility
Conquering Siberia as France makes zero sense compared to conquering it as Russia or Mongolia
>>
>>577881
What if you already hold Alaska though?
>>
>>577878
I wouldn't do it in my country. Hell no. I merly suggested that could be China's solution to lack of workforce.





Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.