>click the "Reform Religion" button>you become immediately on par with european nationsWhat the fuck Paradox
>>482184It's a concession to actually make them playable. The AI is not able to complete the minigames that each native religion is presented with, so they invariably sit at low tech for as long as it takes to conquer them. The minigames exist so that the player has something to do for the first 100-150 years and the reward is a game that is actually playable post-contact. As historical as it would be to have your game immediately end the moment Cortes gets shipwrecked and starts improvising, that's not a desirable outcome from a game design perspective. Having a way to make the AI be the expected pushover but have the player's experience be a quick but not complete catch up to the game field the rest of the world is playing on is a good outcome of this system. The one exception is the totemist natives, whose current minigame is trivial and easily completed in time. But for the nahuatl, maya, and inca, this is absolutely a good move. It's a game that's meant to be played and enjoyed, and with these mechanics selecting the Aztec is a playable and enjoyable experience that doesn't end in 1530 when you're 30k stack gets wiped by 5K drunken Spanish. I'm sorry that this thing that the AI literally never does has interrupted your weird power fantasy.
>>482184>>482208>>482184>ITT: Mayaincatec/Nativamerica fags complain yet again about contrieved implaysible bullshit to make his fav faction relevant in lategame while conviniently disregarding how unrealistic such scenarios are to begin with... See also the AOE2/3 games for simmilar levels of autism
I think it's supposed to represent administrative reforms that a very good native leader could hypothetically implement to "modernize" their state and make it more competitive with European powers. Think the 7 civilized tribes with some differences
>>4826825 not 7 civilized tribes
>>482208>this retarded and ahistorical shit is goodMight as well add some minigame to rise the Atlantis or open a portal from Azeroth, right? That's cool too. Good for the players, dude.
>>482208It's too fucking easy. I'm playing New World because I want a defensive challenge. Instead as soon as you "westernize" you're basically the USA. Nothing is stopping you from declaring a war of aggression against fucking Denmark and then slap the shit out of Europe while leeching off of their institutions. EU3 westernization was much better, you could never quite catch up to Europe, instead it would always be a struggle
>>482861Did any of the Native American cultures actually has even developed large naval vessels capable of seafaring? Honestly asking about this...
>>482841>He doesn't knowHow new are you, exactly?
>>482861Then play EU1-3 and see for yourself.Althought something tells me, you would struggle to play as France or Spain in those, not to mention "the defensive challenge" of playing as natives.Fags who complain how easy EU4 is, but in the same time never played any other game in the series are the worst.
>>482936I obviously mean in the base game.
>>482928Aztecs did not even know about Cuba
>>482184the gods give me the power to destroy my enemies
>>482184Europeans did the same thing just 100 years before EU4 starts. The Renaissance was the result of the Christian "Reform Religion" and the Protestant Reformation followed it. If Europe had not reformed its religion into a more secular one then it would have been stuck in the Medieval ages forever just like the Native Americans were.
>>483124The saddest part is that I can't really tell if you're pretending to be retarded to get some (you)s or you're actually a Paradox apologist.
>>482941I played EU3 since In Nomine you twatAll the way up to 2017 or so. The engine is very limiting and so I switched to EU4, which I prefer overall, but the New World shit is shit
>>482952There is Space Robot Invasion in the base game EU, but to activate it you need to use the console. And you can have Atlantis with Random New World.
>>483172>Space Robot InvasionWeren't bears? Anyways, isn't really a playable option (unless you cheat) nor part of a "real" game.>>483172>you can have Atlantis with Random New WorldI keep forgetting that Random New World exists. I stand corrected for this one.
>>482928Incan Prince allegedly sailed on Pacific, there is event in game about it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topa_Inca_YupanquiProbably just a legend.
>>483174Bears from Jan Mayen are another thing, but there is also Synthetic Invasion made to promote stellaris DLC or something.
>>482208>>482641>>482672>>482682>>482930>>482941>>483124Eat a bullet you retarded paradrone shills holy fuck
>>483299>Point out the game is bad>Somehow labelled as a shill
>>483135He sounds more like a run-the-mill Amerifat to me>Muh super-speshul reformation!>No progress without it!>W-what do you mean reactionary luddites and vehemently anti-science and anti-rational? B-but Catholics...It's always the same shit
>>483151>I played EU3 since In Nomine you twatAnd the best part you are self-exposing yourself as someone who is utterly clueless about In Nomine in particular, not ot mention following expansions, but hey, you tried.
Well they only lost because of european filthy germs.
>>483319Ah yes, the European mind controlling germs than made half of mexico turn against their rules and join Cortes.
>>483318Gb2 the forums shill
>>483124a) The Renaissance started in Italy, a Catholic country, long before Martin Luther was even born.b) The protestant reformation in no way made Europe more secular, in fact this is when shit like witch burning and wars over religion reached its peak in European history.c) The native Americans still weren't even close to medieval level, they weren't even at iron age level.
>>482184I think it's kind of dumb that it's that easy, but it makes a little more sense since you have to have first contact with an European nation to do it. I wish they would've required some sort of cultural exchange or similar that took a little time to represent the spread of ideas to the native nations, institutions don't really work like that since the appear with development spam.
>>483460They should've developed their "protectorates" system instead of dropping it.
>>483124>it would have been stuck in the Medieval ages forever just like the Native Americans were.UGH what could have been.....
>>482184CKII is even worse.>Sunset Invasion could have been a reverse migration of Bantus, who already had iron weaponry, access to horses and shipbuilding tech via the Swahili Coast, and multiple strains of hemorrhagic fever>but nah, how about a bunch of Stone Agers somehow reverse-engineered Vikang longboats and somehow conjure up a magical Ameripox before deciding to cross a big fucking ocean because why not?I get that spics are more reliable buyers for Paradox than nogs, but still.
>>483507That DLC was supposed to be a meme
>>483520>charging $10 for a bad forced memeEven worse.
>>482184>click the XYZ button>absurd thing happensYes that's EUIV gameplay
>>482184The only problem with this is that the Mesoamericans should've been more advanced technologically in both diplomacy and administrative tech than the filthy, subhuman Europeans at the start date
I had a lot of fun with a native playthrough back in like 2014 or so, still haven't done one since then though. I'm sure there's been a lot of changes, but is the basic strategy still spam development to build up your provinces and immediately reform into a powerhouse when the Europeans show up, or can you reform before they even arrive now?While it makes sense that you adopt their tech as your modernization, it'd kind of be nice if you had some things you could develop on your own while you wait on them to get there, last I played it wasn't worth even getting a single tech because you instantly get jumped up to just three techs below the Europeans, so you're better off saving as much mana as possible and then dumping it into tech as soon as you reform.>>483507I didn't mind Sunset Invasion so much, though it helped that it was enjoyable from a mechanical standpoint. Those sort of "what-if" DLCs are at least partially interesting to think how things would change based on their premise, though I wish Paradox would do more research into them before they make them up.The Mesoamericans had some advancements, mainly in stoneworking, city planning, and agriculture, that you could've made a case that they might've been on par with the Egyptians, but I don't know how you'd get any further than that. As far as I know, they had no knowledge of shipbuilding even equal to Europe's fishing ships and no real reason to even consider learning how to build them.For even the first part of Sunset Invasion to take place, that is the new world being somewhat developed, there would have to first be a huge population boom to facilitate internal trade in the continent, but the lack of people coupled with the relative size of America would make that something that would have to be brewing at least about 500 year prior to SI. Maybe if there were more natural barriers to facilitate higher density populations within the Mexico area, you -might- get some conditions for development.
>>483366a) Italy was Catholic but the Renaissance men were not they revived Ancient Greek skepticism of religion and viewed it as a metaphor.b) You are making false generalizations about Protestants most Protestants were more rational and empirical believing in science not magic.c) Oh you are just a dumb racist. Native Americans had everything Medieval Europe had except smaller cities but in Mexico the cities were still huge and some American architecture was more impressive than European architecture like Machu Pichu.
>>483828poor bait but good hustlehave a (you)
>>483507I liked Sunset Invasion as an optional fantasy thing you can add to your game. The idea is fucking retarded, but so is much of CK2. I don't mind weird things like that as long as you can turn them off and play a more grounded game.
>>483507>Stone AgersBarely worth a (You)Kill yourself
I think part of the problem is that the native reform mechanics were introduced with El Dorado. Before development and institutions were even a thing. So now that you can sink MPs into dev and that westernization doesn't exist anymore the native reforms aren't exactly balanced or well-integrated anymore.>>482208>The minigames existIf only the Incan "minigame" didn't boil down to "blob"...>>482841You have been able to find the literal actual Fountain of Youth ingame since the same DLC came out. But native reforms are too much for you? How many times must it be repeated that EU4 is *alternate* history spiced up with a heavy dose of myth. Unless you are a turbo-autist who RPs historical borders *everything* you do is "ahistorical".>>482861Yes, the reforms are unbalanced. But you realize it is up to you how you play? Don't reform. Or wait 50 years. Or reform and never tech up. Or play a gimped custom nation. Powergaming through all available mechanics and then complaining about a lack of challenge in a singleplayer game is... special.>>483808>so you're better off saving as much mana as possible and then dumping it into tech as soon as you reform.Was this actually the case when you played in 2014? Because it sure didn't work when last I played Inca on 1.25. What you wrote was the wide-spread advice, yet it was impossible in-game. The tech cost wasn't recalculated immediately upon hitting the reform button so you could either spend 2.5k on a tech, or wait for an update tick or reload which would cap your pool out at 999. I stockpiled like forums and the wiki told me to and got a single tech out of it for each category, losing thousands of mana which I should have pumped into development.
>>484046Why do you thin I like the idea of finding a magical fountain of eternal youth that actually doesn't even do a shit other than add some province modifiers?And yes, I liked when Paradox games were supposed to be on the simulation side, not the ebin reddit side with magic and shit. Might as well play the Warhammer Total War at this point.
>>483299>NOOOOOO YOU HAVE TO BE A CONTRARIAN LIKE ME AND COMPLAIN ABOUT AHISTORICITY IN A GAME WHERE THE POINT IS TO LEAD A NATION TO VICTORY NOOOOO
>>484046Yeah, it was the case in the old, not surprised it got patched out. Essentially, you'd hit reform, your mana cap would drop to 999, but you wouldn't actually lose mana until the next day. You were free to blow it on average three techs a piece (Each tech cost about 550 or 600), so you'd just shoot up right to your neighbor's tech level.The only shortcoming about it was most often by the time you can reform, it's a colonial nation and not a mother nation on your border, so England's colony is going to have lower tech than England proper would have. You'd catch up to them, but still be one or two techs behind England itself. Even with tech though, your units were still going to be weaker than Europe's units, so you had to rely on massive numbers to actually win any battles--with the best general I could get, I still had to take on England's armies 3:1 to actually win fights, 2:1 would be a likely loss, and 1:1 would just get my slaughtered. I lost tons of troops to attrition just because I couldn't stack enough on a single territory to actually fight against the Europeans, something I hope has changed somewhat.I wanted to make myself the China of the New World, huge armies and a stable kingdom, but I was hampered by just how bad non-western troops are, even after a reform.
>>484346While I don't really like the fantasy elements in CK2 and EU4, I think that might be the problem, Paradox needs to make a fantasy game just to get it out of their system. I always thought CK2 would be the perfect base to handle something like that, but Paradox has insisted on historical settings with the exception of Stellaris being sci-fi.
>>483507I distinctly remember fucking and then eating the Pope as a horse, and then installing myself as the Pope despite being a satanic cannibalistic homosexual horse.
>>484979I won't mind a Paradox "Master of Magic", but putting that kind of shit in the game while not having a real consequence is beyond retarded. I mean, imagine if the fountain of youth were real, history would start to move around it. Every single emperor/king/pope would want for him.
>>482208>when you're 30k stack gets wiped by 5K drunken Spanishdesu I think this is the main problem with the game's representation of colonial conquestIRL, the "unreformed" Aztecs could have totally BTFOd the Spanish despite the tech difference. Arquebus and plate can't save you if there's 100 enemies for every one of yours. The Spanish won because they recruited a coalition of Aztec tributaries to boost their numbers to 100,000 or so, allowing their artillery and cavalry to act as a force multiplier.That's something that's hard to represent in a game like EU4 without just railroading via an event, especially if you have to teach the AI to recognize such opportunities.Also the fact that Spain can ship their entire armed forces over to Mexico and have them back in time for tea doesn't help, when moving large numbers of troops on that scale would be a massive undertaking that would leave Spain extremely vulnerable back in Europe.
Well if Japan did it, why couldn't they?
>>483463Wait, protectorates were dropped?Last time I've played, Third Rome just came out
>>483507>and somehow conjure up a magical Ameripox>He doesn't knowAside that - Sunset Invasion is deliberately and intentionally written as a meme, you fucking retard
>>485189Maybe because Japan was a middle age isle next to China while mesoamerica a bunch of bronze age retards.>b-but reddit told me about the advanced mesoamerican civilization!They lied to you, Anon.
>>483531Not a single mechanic from that DLC affects anything but itself, so why are you complaining about flavour pack that isn't needed for anything but own flavour?>>483556MEIOU does that, at least to a degree. China and thus Far East starts with a considerable edge and rest of the world spends rest of the game catching up until about 1650.Aka what happend irl.
>>485009>I mean, imagine if the fountain of youth were realClearly, it means a 10% trade modifier to a nation that discovered it. A permament modifier. And said modifier is the only way to notify it exists at all
>>485199Yeah, but what if they changed it somehow so it becomes harder to you to do that shit? Like, instead of when you're adjacent to a colony you can't do that shit inmediatly but have to survive decades as a retrograde nation? I mean, this could work in a logical sense and would require more effort that not anyone could pull off>100k natives just to win against 15k euros and lose a third of your army in that one battle>keep like this for years, many more time depending on how big your country isIt could also force people not to blob before the tech comes, you don't have to take the mechanic out, just implement it in an actual LOGICAL FUCKING WAY, hell even I agree that how it is now it's pretty fucking stupid
>>485180>That's something that's hard to represent in a game like EU41) Game has provinces, states, regions, countries and continents definied in files2) Game has mercenaries (three different itterations of it)3) Game has supply costs of units4) Create a three-fold supply system, where unit costs no extra in a home state, 20% outside of it, but still in home region, 300% when inside country borders, but outside home region and state AND 3000% when outside the home continent (values taken straight from ass to serve as an example)5) Create a specific "native auxiliary" mercenary that's dirty cheap, but also has terrible stats, since it represents either natives "raw" or just minor itterations of them - such troops would fold in mid-to-late game when facing regulars from other places of the world, but in early game are on par with everyone else.Here, solved, without inventing a single new mechanic and just using shit that's there.Because it's already in game, certain mods are doing this (althrough in a forceful, unstable way, as they don't have the source code)
>>485209>But what if things happenGotta love that precision and clear-cut idea how you want to achieve your change, anon.
>>485194At some point. Again, while imperfect they were a good start, just needed more developing into the system.>>485204It doesn't even make your goddamn ruler youth! Or the guy who discovered it.>>485209>what if they changed it somehow so it becomes harder to you to do that shit?Then you'll have a good game I guess. "Believable Worlds", that was a good motto. What's know? "Bobbling World Conquering Abos"?
>>485199>bronze age retardsSee >>483851
>>485219>It doesn't even make your goddamn ruler youth! Or the guy who discovered it.Reminder that if you achieve immortality in CK2 and port saves to EU4, your ruler IS immortal.But Fountain of Youth doesn't do a thing beyond a 10% modifier.
>>485216Yeah, I don't even "legally" own the game so I can't even talk properly about that stuff on paradox forums, and they prob won't care anyway considering this way is easier for modders to make competitive mods for mp iirc>>485219>"Bobbling World Conquering Abos"You can bet your ass that they'll put more effort in those actual inexistent nations on fucking Australia that in actually making a balanced an believable AmericasFucking swedish cunts
>>485222Now that you say, bronze age retards knew how to sail or use the well. The "stone age" Anon is more accurate, my seething spic friend.
>>485226Refer to this post from now on >>483851
>>485229>no argumentAs expected from seething spics.
>>485226How the fuck do you even get to that point in civilization without knowing how to make a big boat ffs, Incas got an empire spawning from Colombia to Chile and they were riding canoes for ages
>>485233Technological progress isn't like a skill tree in a videogame where things progress in a linear and constant fashion, you stupid fucking moron. Such a simple and basic concept neither you or your other retarded friend there can grasp.To put it in very simple terms, for your very simple brain to understand, if they have nothing to gain from sailing, they won't bother spending resources on improving their ability to do so.
>>485233>How the fuck do you even get to that point in civilization without knowing how to make a big boat ffsWhich point, the stone age? They were a bunch of crappy city states in the middle of America.>Incas got an empireIt was just Tupac and Tupac Jr, bullying lesser niggas and didn't lasted for shit. Calling that "empire" is a joke.
>>485243>didn't lasted for shitBecause the Spanish invaded shortly after, disingenuous faggot>It was just Tupac and Tupac Jr, bullying lesser niggasMost empires at the time could fall into the same generalization
>>485246>"The forces led by Pizarro consisted of 168 men, one cannon, and 27 horses">invasionBronze. Age. Retards.
>>485247>Ignoring that most of the population died due to old world diseases, on top of the ongoing internal conflicts at the timeThe only retard here is you, choosing to not only continue be ignorant about the subject, but also spreading misinformation about something you know nothing about, while having access to almost the entirety of human knowledge at any time in your fingertips.So, once again, kill yourself.
>>485250>while having access to almost the entirety of human knowledge at any time in your fingertips.And yet you can't provide a single source as counter-argument, proving my right.gg no re
>>485252You can't expect sources when both your arguments are in bad faith and blatantly wrong, and when you can't bother to post sources yourself, retard. Do me a solid and kill yourself.
>>485254>not even a wikipedia article You know your own sources are going to prove you wrong, right? Now that's sad. Well, at least you aren't a seething spic IRL, right? Now that would be beyond sad.
>>482841this chud wants to play the same historically correct game with the same outcomes every time.Pay your money, play war in the east, and just leave it be.
>>483507this guy lives in Iowa and is pretty sure Qanon is agaisnt fun DLC you can just turn off.
>nooooo I'm not racist I just think ots a top priority to make darkies weaker than euros in a game where you can conquer the world as byzantium!!!
>>483507>all this text over an optional dlcgsgfags are literally mentally ill
>>482208All good until:>your weird power fantasyNo you faglord. Making Aztecs instatntly skip several centuries of social and technological reformation IS weird power fantasy. Not the actual historical outcome.
>>485520If you've such a major issue with a little but of power gaming from the human yeah its a power fantasy
>>485445>"I don't want magic in my historical game">LMOA this [tourist slang] wants the same outcome every game!Are you legally retarded? Because that will explain why you believe in magic.
>>485233... by not going into the sea? Also, what >>485240 said. Technological development IS NOT linear, same with culture.Take far better example, Chinese. Superior naval construction technology, superior navigation technology until 18th century, superior maps until 18th century, compass present literal millenia before Europe... and none of it used for anything in particular, because why fucking bother going into the sea, if you already have everything you need, plus there is a huge water canal in the country connecting distant places and outside of the mercy of the weather over the high sea.
>>485247>Epidemy in 1510s, killing third of the population>Epidemy in 1530s, killing half of what was left>Hahahaha, conquered by 300 guys!>Implying there was any actual conquestConsidering the state of affairs in South America, you could literally just roll in with a handful of people, kill what was left of central administration and declare the land "yours".Then get actual reaction 20 years later, when massive force does form against you and pretty much regains independence for next 30 years, before massive land force is send to re-conquer the whole thingBut hey, if you paid even MINIMAL attention to history, you couldn't shitpost, so oh well.
>>483366>c) The native Americans still weren't even close to medieval level, they weren't even at iron age level.Real history doesn't have a civilization-esque tech tree. Native American civilizations (which were themselves incredibly varied) were more primitive than Europeans in some ways but were on par or even more advanced in others. Descriptors like "Iron Age" or "Medieval" only make sense in the context of Europe and MENA, and even then only barely.
>>483507>wtf why did the alternate history dlc alter history so much?
>>485233The Inca didn't even have a writing system either. Technological and societal progression is not as linear as video games have led you to believes.
>>485233It's very likely they sailed as far as Easter Island anon
>>485257Jesus m8 you are a fucking retard
>>485681And they still had a stupidly bureaucratic administration of their territories
>>485697How is that possible?
>>485702Excellent road system. You know how the Chinese invented porcelain very soon and never bothered with glass? That kind of shit.
>>485705West Africa also went straight to iron metallurgy without copper or bronze.
>>485702Iirc they had a specific class that just memorized everything there was to memorize. They were very roman-esque in their assimilation of cultures and occupation of territories.
>>485739Also important to note that the knot system they used for accounting is similar to stuff ancient chinese and hawaiians did. Eh more cool than important really
>>485628>>Epidemy in 1510s, killing third of the population>>Epidemy in 1530s, killing half of what was leftSo, these epidemics made them forget about sailing or how to work with iron? Perhaps they were some weir iron/wood eating bacteria that elimitated their fleet and iron weapons and tools? Oh wait, they were just bronze age retards, which was my point. Do some illness impaired your reading comprehension too?>>Implying there was any actual conquestExcept I never said that. The Inca, smarter than the Mexica, welcomed their new European overlords.Bronce.Age.Retards.>>485694>still no argument or sourceDon't worry dumb spic, I know sometimes history facts are hard to swallow, I accept your concession.
>>482208You could play as the natives one EU3 too, and guess what, it was almost impossible, as it should be, and was very fun when you could pull off.Now everywhere has these board game mechanics that basically don’t make a difference other than the UI.I preferred having Europeans be a final boss of sorts for everyone else, not have everyone else catch them in a generation or less of contact
>>485180>That's something that's hard to represent in a game like EU4While not perfect, in EU3 you would recruit troops based on the local provinces culture, I think, so if you had a newly conquered colony in the new world you could hires natives to be in your army. You normally wouldn’t unless you desperately needed numbers, but it’s actually an interesting attempt to model what you’re talking about, which is totally absent in EU4 to nobody’s surprise
>>485213If I remember correctly, you could hire local mercenaries in EU3
>>485681>The Inca didn't even have a writing system either.Well they didn’t have a writing system like most others, but they had a weird novelty sort of “writing” system which consists of knots tied to different lengths of string at different points, as a way of sending messages. It’s limited, clearly why nobody else ever used it or anything too similar, but a cool example of a novel writing system
>>485816Quipu are a method for recording numerical values but it isn't writing in the same way tally marks aren't writing. You can't write a story or a letter with quipu, you can just record how many llamas the nearby tribe owes you or whatever.
Mesoamerican history anon here, I'm gonna try to reply to stuff with corrections, further insight, and my take on how EUIV handles Mesoamerican civilizations (To my knowledge, I have only limited experience with the game) sometime tommorow or in the next few days.If anybody has any questions in advance feel free to post them; as always my resource directory of prior dumps, my art drive, the book mega, etc is here: https://pastebin.com/p42q14Ff tho Pastebin is increasingly taking down old pastes so I need to update it with new links; the directory and art/book drives need updating too anyways
>>486752Based mesoamerica anon.
>>485798Yes, but they are in no way special, they are just local version of current average tech level of that tech group. The point here is to have EU4-style mercs, where you can hire this special unit of native auxiliaries that's SUPER cheap, but also fights on tier of 1500 armies and then just gets woefully obsolete, unless you plan to hire (later in the game) a more expensive and more efficient version, one that carries guns and what not, but is still generally an auxiliary force, rather than an actual army.In general, EU seriously struggles with the concept of main army and auxiliary troops, DESPITE having all the ingredients since EU3 to make it work
>>485747The point literally hit you in the face, drilled a hole in it and came clean through on the other side of your head.So here, a simplified, direct version, that even a smoothbrain like you can grasp:Grand majority of what passes as "Incan empire" was in the middle of a post-apo situation, started before any European even realised they exist. They suffered such monstrual depopulation PRIOR to European contact (but thanks to European diseases), it put their entire society in complete disarray. And when they were finally starting to sort their shit out (if rather ineffectively), Pizarro and co. showed up. And they've showed up the same style as Cortez did - with fuckload of local auxiliaries. The big difference being they weren't revolting against Incan rule (like the various tribes against Aztecs did), but an outside force that was eager to simply conquer their neighbours. And because of that post-apo situation, they didn't have to do anything except arriving to the capital, killing the ruling elite and declare the empire taken. Grand majority of said empire didn't even realise there have been a change in the structure or outsiders ruling it for few years after the fact, because the whole thing was just barely holding together. And once they've realised that and recovered, they've not just opposed the Spanish rule, but simply kicked them out. So the end result is a disastrous opening situation, combined with the "conquistadors" being actually a fuck-huge contingent of locals fighting their local "war", or rather just rolling in, with Spaniards simply pulling the strings to put themselves in charge.>1/2
>>486842Do I also need to remind Pizarro was slaughtered by his own men and how the Spanish force responsible for conquering Inca basically killed each other in the end, leaving a near-literal skeleton crew that stayed "in power" solely because they've fortified themselves up and hoped for the best with reinforcements from Spain? Or how the whole thing would have been considered a complete fucking disaster and waste of effort, if not for the Potosi silver ore, discovered decades after "Pizarro's" "conquest". If not for Potosi, the Spanish crown was very open about abandoning the whole area, since they had zero use for it and only trouble, while requiring huge expenses and manpower to just keep it together.
>>486752I love you Mesoamericanon. What are your recommendations for someone who wants to start learning about the pre-Colombian South American societies?
>>486842>>486844>The point literally hit you in the face, drilled a hole in it and came clean through on the other side of your headThe point was about how the Inca were bronze age retards, mesotard. And you don't disproved it.BRONZEAGE RETARDS
>>485180>IRL, the "unreformed" Aztecs could have totally BTFOd the Spanish despite the tech difference
>>486842>>486844You write like a cuck
>the /his/ middle america autist is now on /vst/either go back or stop posting you no lifer, no one cares about your shitty headcanon.
>The based /his/ middle america anon is now blessing /vst/ with his presencePlease stay here and keep posting friend, we love hearing about the little known and widely misunderstood history of pre-Colombian America
>some guy from /his/ on /vst/I don't have an opinion on the subject.
>>487009Nta, but you base your argument on...You know, you have SOME basis to call them that... right?
>>485747The source of you being a retard is on the whole thread
>>487110Yes, some dudes with a few horses and guns would be quite easy to beat for them.
Haven't you heard Anon? You're not allowed to talk about Eu4 on /vst/, we can't understand game mechanics that don't involve warfare or nazis
>>482208>I'm sorry that this thing that the AI literally never does has interrupted your weird power fantasy.Native Americans got buttfucked in real life, so it is not a fantasy.
>>489199As you can see for this thread seems RL doesn't count.
>>489030And yet they still got completely shredded by 200 drunk Spaniards and their horses. They must have been real fucking stupid if it actually could have been so easy.
>>485213Paradoxhirethisman.Seriously tough, that's a good proposition.
>>490379You’re forgetting the thousands of locals that sided with the Spanish
>>491229You're missing the forest for the trees. The point of modern Paradox games is Abo world conquest, not resembling history.
>>491432its an everyone world conquest, and always has been
>>491494Back in the day during EU3 with westernization and shit was way more hard and they never added meme nations like the new Abo patch. While being a boardgame at least it pretended to be sightly historical. Now Samoans can use mana to summon the renaissance to their islands and then get colonization before Europe.
>>490379>by 200 drunk Spaniards and their horses.and hundreds of thousands of natives who were already in open war with the Mexica when Cortez arrived
>>485213>5) Create a specific "native auxiliary" mercenary that's dirty cheap, but also has terrible stats, since it represents either natives "raw" or just minor itterations of them - such troops would fold in mid-to-late game when facing regulars from other places of the world, but in early game are on par with everyone else.This means giving Europeans a ridiculous number of almost free mercenaries with no attached condition beyond landing near Mesoamerica to simulate a coalition and the rewards of the conquest. The new "Curry favor" interaction will be sufficient here. Just add an increase to Aztec tributaries' willingness to become vassals.
>>483507>Reverse migration of the Bantus>A few warriors from a land where horses don't exist trying to challenge Nigerians.They wouldn't make it past Benin. Even if they sailed around, they'd get taken out by the Ijesa.
>>492905Unless I'm missing something, I don't think you can really do cheap mercenaries unless you have some way to combat the rising increase in support costs due to having more units. I believe EU4 makes every unit slap you with a +1% cumulative upkeep cost, so if you were exceeding your force limit with "cheap" native auxilieries, you'd still crater in the long term because somehow they make your other units cost more in upkeep as well.If you did it, you'd have to somehow make those forces not count against your force limit modifier, and even then the game might still break down and count them anyway.
>>493052It'd make more sense to just have normal mercs and require diplomatic navigation as Europeans specialized in during this time.
>>492905>Just add an increase to Aztec tributaries' willingness to become vassals.Again, they dropped the protectorates but this was good way to use them, else they'll fuck you (also retarded) relations limit. Maybe with an even later to turn/incorporate them into colonial nations.
>>492971>A few warriors from a land where horses don't exist trying to challenge Nigerians.If they're from the eastern or central part of Africa, they know what horses are and can get them via the Swahili Coast.
>>493266>Transporting horses from Kenya to Nigeria overland>Thinking horses will make a difference when Southern Nigerians specialized in anti-cavalry tactics and fortifications.I can't imagine what it'd take for that to be possible.
>>492905>This means giving Europeans a ridiculous number of almost free mercenaries with no attached conditionAre you autistic or something? The point is that they operate on the same rules as stated in previous four points, so they can only be used locally and only against other natives. Send them on other colonial powers and they are worthless. Send them to other region/continent and the maintenance is going to ruin you.
>>491229It's just common sense and ideas that have been tried in different mods, so I take no credit for this nor find it in any way brilliant.What such easy fixes show is how incompetent Paradox is over the past... when HTTT was released? 2009? So that would be 12 years. They've unfucked EU3 with HTTT, and that was it in terms of ever improving the formula and format of EU as a series. From there on, it's just downhill>but DW was goodIt wasn't. It used the idiotic "build everything in a row" construction tree, which was introduced solely because they had to test it for CK2.>>491432And I never specified this mechanics has to be "just for Europeans" or "only in this or that region"
>>492905Why average only-EU4 player is so dense and literal-minded? Anon just threw around a concept, one that he openly states isn't based on actual values, but simply "proof-of-idea" style of thing, and you are already taking it all literally and jumping to conclusions, too.Why not treat this as, say, banners? Banners have a clear limit tied to variety of factors, so they are balanced out against their benefits. Maybe you didn't notice, but this proposition in general seems like a general rework on how armies should operate and how to solve the never-ending issue of "every war is a total war, because there is absolutely nothing preventing that".Also, what happend with the concept of "mercenaries as mercenary companies", rather than "a no-manpower regiment that's slightly more expensive"? Wasn't that planned for the HRE-themed DLC? Dharma was so bad, I just stopped even checking what's in the following DLCs beyond their general announcements.
>>493460>The point is that they operate on the same rules as stated in previous four points, so they can only be used locally and only against other nativesYeah, that's the issue.>>493521>Anon just threw around a concept, one that he openly states isn't based on actual values, but simply "proof-of-idea" style of thing, and you are already taking it all literally and jumping to conclusions, too.Because the issue is with the concept's place in the narrative. Just ally the city-states and work with them to take land.
>>493645How is that an issue?And as so many people already pointed out: protectorates have been removed. Ages ago. Not to mention they only work out when you have a country to ally/take as protectorate. Which means you very quickly run out of allies, while the actual problem - horrible bloat of armies and super-easy recruitment on global scale of top-of-the-line troops - remain.I don't actually think we are even trying to solve the same problem here. My entire point is to fucking prevent this idiotic "let's move 50 k people on the other side of the globe as if nothing happend, and in the same time find ways to have troops locally anyway, because you need them". And your point would be... what, exactly? Ally a country that can't field sufficient number of troops, using diplo-limit on that, too, while you can just ship an army from your capital region without a single issue?
>>493645>>493661Because seriously, at this point, EU2 had better solutions to this shit than either EU3 or 4, with its manpower limit on how many and how often troops you could recruit in any given place. And in vast majority of colonial territories, you could forget about rising more than 1k troops at once, for next 4 months, per province that was in size of EU4 state. That without mentioning how expensive and time consuming it was to gain a fleet capable of moving your army from Europe to anywhere else and how the game through various other mechanics made it possible to do a "500 man conquest" of entire Aztec empire, despite them having a "deathstack" of 50k troops.Let me reitterate - EU2, an ancient and deeply flawed, not to mention simplified game, handles this shit better than either 3 or especially 4, which for all its Byzantine bloat, can't even do such basic shit as proper troop limits and supply-logistics matrix
>>493661>How is that an issue?I misspoke. >And as so many people already pointed out: protectorates have been removed. Ages ago. Not to mention they only work out when you have a country to ally/take as protectorate. Which means you very quickly run out of alliesIt shouldn't be a protectorate, no.>while the actual problem - horrible bloat of armies and super-easy recruitment on global scale of top-of-the-line troops - remain.His other points addressed this, but more can be added.>I don't actually think we are even trying to solve the same problem here. My entire point is to fucking prevent this idiotic "let's move 50 k people on the other side of the globe as if nothing happend, and in the same time find ways to have troops locally anyway, because you need them". And your point would be... what, exactly? Ally a country that can't field sufficient number of troops, using diplo-limit on that, too, while you can just ship an army from your capital region without a single issue?Ally multiple countries who have claims in a region, attach your cavalry and artillery to their stacks, and keep a few infantry regiments to claim provinces for yourself in the fighting. When the peace deal is signed, if you have five provinces, you form a CN, and that CN can easily recruit locals to aid your existing alliance network. Continue doing this until you and your allies have become regional hegemons, then consume them.>>493671Yup.
>>493698>Ally multiple countries who have claims in a regionAgain, that assumes they exist. Usually by the time you arrive, you are lucky to have more than 3 countries, both in III and IV>then consume themFuck no. Either you conquer them outright and/or betray them, or they stick around. And if you have to absorb them, then you have to go through normal vassalisation thing, but again, handled like in EU2, not 4's "just wait them out for a decade".
>>494219>Again, that assumes they exist. Usually by the time you arrive, you are lucky to have more than 3 countries, both in III and IVI haven't ever experienced this, but even then, you can support rebels and ride with a "Return core" CB.>Fuck no. Either you conquer them outright and/or betray them, or they stick around.At that point, anything's fine by me.
>>494225Which, ironically, means a decade of wait. A decade in which you could simply ship out troops from Europe to the place, or colonise an empty province and use it as a staging ground. This solves nothing. And the original solution was about both making such colonial conquest rely on local "levy" AND solving general issue of supplying fuck-huge armies. Your take on the material doesn't really solve either and in fact encourages the blunt "50k doomstack landing, half of which artillery" approach
>>494228>Which, ironically, means a decade of wait.Support Rebels only lasts 5 years, and if you check province history and rebel progress, it can be a quick affair.>A decade in which you could simply ship out troops from Europe to the place, or colonise an empty province and use it as a staging ground.Colonization (via colonist) is far too fast.>This solves nothing. And the original solution was about both making such colonial conquest rely on local "levy" AND solving general issue of supplying fuck-huge armies.I agreed with the implementation of the army cost increase, anon.The issue isn't about whether or not the troops are technically locals. What matters is that they're not immediately working directly for Castile.
>>493467>I never specified this mechanics has to be "just for Europeans" or "only in this or that region"Neither I did. The Abos need the supplies too for their world conquering campaigns.
>>483828>Italy was Catholic but the Renaissance men were notBuahahahaNice naive bait anon, got me a hearty laugh in a mostly dull day
>>490379No they didn’t, the 100k tlaxcalans and other native allies did
>get conquered by 200 drunk spaniards>500 years later people still mock your ancestors for being too dumb to use the wheel>get killed by the cartelLMOAing @ ur lyfe
>>494237>The issue isn't about whether or not the troops are technically locals. What matters is that they're not immediately working directly for Castile.Then I absolutely fail to see your problem now. And I mean it genuinely. Please, explain me your point.
>>493286It's not like Bantus were unfamiliar with siege warfare, either. Their own cities were often well-fortified.
>>495158>Then I absolutely fail to see your problem now. And I mean it genuinely. Please, explain me your point.Native soldiers shouldn't be working directly under a colonial power (in significant quantities) until they have a CN. If you want to colonize Mexico (or really any other location), the vast majority of people actually fighting should be from local allies who have things to gain from partnering with you. The only exceptions would be times when you can directly reach (and afford) strong mercenary companies, as in the case of India, or for extremely small countries.>>495271What does that have to do with anything? The point is that horses wouldn't help them. The fact that you're pointing out an example from Southern Africa should cause you to realize you're describing an entire linguistic group, not a polity. The logistics necessary for that were beyond even industrialized powers in the 19th century. It's completely unfeasible.
>>495477>Native soldiers shouldn't be working directly under a colonial power (in significant quantities) until they have a CN.But that's the entire point of the original post - you get auxiliaries from having a territory already. Meaning you've colonised something. And the point is about getting shitty fodder units, not strong army.
>>495481>But that's the entire point of the original post - you get auxiliaries from having a territory already. Meaning you've colonised something.There's a difference between plopping down 300 people in western Cuba and having control over an actual city. >And the point is about getting shitty fodder units, not strong army.Shitty by world standards, but serviceable for expansion within the region. That's how I understood the post.
>>495485And then there is having a colonial outpost, which is insufficient to rise even colonial militia, but enough to contact local tribes. The game has no political entities that are smaller than a country, and oftentimes representing entire regions of specific cultures, not to mention actual countries and empires, meaning it is by default incapable of using actual local inhabitants. The only way the game represents them is the pre-colonization population, but it doesn't affect anything of value (since population is no longer a thing in EU4) and offers a meaningless bonus to trade goods once colony is established. Why not then use that for a basis of your auxiliary mercs.Shitty in general, since they will simply quickly get dated. Imagine having forever a mercenary unit that's stuck at 1500 tech and no firearms. A fucking cannon fodder, but one that is local and thus doesn't incure penalties to maintenance costs.
>>495508>And then there is having a colonial outpost, which is insufficient to rise even colonial militia, but enough to contact local tribes. The game has no political entities that are smaller than a country, and oftentimes representing entire regions of specific cultures, not to mention actual countries and empires, meaning it is by default incapable of using actual local inhabitants. The only way the game represents them is the pre-colonization population, but it doesn't affect anything of value (since population is no longer a thing in EU4) and offers a meaningless bonus to trade goods once colony is established. Why not then use that for a basis of your auxiliary mercs.Because that would be insufficient to take down the Mexican empires. The game won't model that because everything outside Europe is reduced to trivial levels (unless Europeans can use it). The result would be those mercs either providing something like half-regiments, or being far too powerful relative to the actual enemy they were fighting.>Shitty in general, since they will simply quickly get dated. Imagine having forever a mercenary unit that's stuck at 1500 tech and no firearms.Why wouldn't mercenaries working for arms dealers have access to firearms?
>>495271That 20 foot wall is called "great" precisely because Bantus very rarely had stone fortifications or even cities.
>>485628the disease was not a coincidence, though the bearers of them might not have been aware
>>483299Came back almost a week later just to ask - How the hell did you came to your fundamentally wrong conclusion that I did try defending Paracucks AU bullshit with >>482672 Like i said before, all those hi-tech MezzoAmerica power fantasies are fucktarded just like how in AoE2&3 you can reliably win against Civs that can field gunpowder troops and artillery with sub-medieval army tech, nevermind the primitive fucks didnt even utilize the wheel for practical everyday usage - not the same as never actually inventing the concept of a wheel, as it is often memed incorrectly... Sorry for the blogpost
>>492031>>491432>AbosI dont play Paradicks map painters, but want to know this - Do you mean you can now play as the 'strayan Abos and form an Aborigene empire despite literally being mentaly unable to count to more than 4 or not knowing the concepts of past and future besides yesterday and tomorrow???
>>491432>>496336I love how you guys get so hung up on Aboriginals blobbing like the game doesn't do the same things for every other group.
>>482841>I hate ahistorical contentThe entire game is.Scotland can't "inherit" England (personal unions are also pretty stupid)India can't be occupied by independent tradersOne merchant on the Cape collects all the money in AsiaSlavery ends when you hit the decision to outlaw itYou can't annex all of Mexico in one yearPermanent armies existArmy and navy sizes are bonkersYou can colonise Africa beyond a few trading portsAnd so on
>>498473>India can't be occupied by independent tradersIndia was primarily formed by Indian mercenaries operating on Bengali wealth.
>>490379>>487110The 100,000 angry tlaxcallans carried the war for Cortes, destroyed and pillaged the aztec capital despite the spanish pleas to stop kicking the massive dead horse, and then got nobility titles from Spain. Then helped Cortes conquer the rest of mesoamerica, got contracted around as colonizers and mercenaries and even some got to Asia for fun adventures in the Philipines.
>>483507>somehow reverse engineer longboatslmaoyou think they couldnt understand carpentry?how far down the /pol/ rabbithole are you in? you seem to have lost like 30 IQ points already.
>>4838282/10 pretty weak bait
>>496952 >>498473 Theres a clear difference between managing to have Byzanthium not fall to the Turks via random implausible events, and having some bronze era (stone age even in some regards) tribal spear-chuckers conquer larger parts of Eurasia simply by praying hard enough and having the Fountain of Youth legend be literally true - and thats disregarding even dumber shit like horse nobility...
>>499309I'm talking about development totals, colonization speed, the economy, rebels, etc.You can easily make the United States the world's #1 power by 1619. Morocco and Tunis can rule everything from the Azores to Benin with ease. Italians can take just about every port in southern India in a single war. France consistently outstrips Ming as a Great Power before the 17th century, even if the Manchus, Mongols, silver tax, and rebellions all fail to become issues.This game is already silly.
>>499309It's hilarious how considering all the flaws of the game, all you have to complain is getting triggered. And no, there is no difference. Both are equally impossible and equally unlikely.Also, here is a thing:Last time EU tried to be historical, it was EU2. EU3 was a total sandbox, yet you didn't get triggered by it (since you never played it, but that's digressing) for a routine situations like Marocco conquering Spain or Turks reaching Moscow, while France in 9 out of 10 games ended up in a stalemate with Occitania for the entire game or how nobody ever managing to take down Inca, due to variety of in-game reasons.tl;dr it's actually fun watching you seething for all the wrong reasons
>>498889>you think they couldnt understand carpentry?Good luck making treenails and scarf joints without iron tools, you fag.>le /pol/ bogeymanRent-free.
>>500334As you can read here, they were too smart and advanced to lower themselves to use iron.
>>500334>Good luck making treenails and scarf joints without iron tools, you fag.Woven planks have long been a functional substitute for nailed planks, anon.
>>482928The Mayans often sailed the coasts of the Yucatan with canoes and had an extensive maritime trade. The natives in cuba also played a hip ball game similar to that of Mesoamerica so the possibility of reaching the carribeans is plausible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_trade_in_the_Maya_civilization
>>500334It's funny that /pol/tards never deny they're /pol/tards, proving that the "boogeyman" is actually real. Though I don't think they actually know what that means.
>>502913>It's funny thatLook, Twitter immigrant. /pol/ is the site's designated news board, so everyone here who isn't a complete newfag visits it at least once a month. There's no need to deny something that everyone does and accepts as normal. Your /pol/ bogeyman is just that, a bogeyman.
>>499850this>>492031Wasn't EU3 Byz pretty much the original meme nation?>>502997Different anon here, but this is just too good to pass up.>Look, Twitter immigrant.The amount of projection is unreal, even for a /pol/tard.>/pol/ is the site's designated news boardYou mean >>>/news/ by any chance? Then again, we can't expect a tourist like you to have ever even looked at the board list. Or at the board title of /pol/.>so everyone here who isn't a complete newfag visits it at least once a month.>something that everyone doesAhahahah, no, absolutely not. There hasn't been anything worthwhile on that cesspool in at least 5 years. And even if you visit once a month, an occasional visit would not make you a /pol/tard so you're already moving the goalposts like a motherfucker.>Your /pol/ bogeyman is just that, a bogeyman.You would think a /pol/tard would have less affinity towards astroturfing this hard. Once again my expectations were simply too high.Now shoo, back to your containment board.
>>504138>Wasn't EU3 Byz pretty much the original meme nation?Kinda. By the start of EU games Byzantium should be already doomed, but exploiting alliances and, more important, straits and bad AI you could meme them into a superpower.Again, I don't mind some ahistorical stuff to some degree, like east Asian nations modernizing and catching up, even becoming the new powers. I do dislike "full retard" scenarios, like the aboriginal tribes being playable and able to start colonization faster than the Europeans.
>>504138>You mean >>>/news/ by any chance?Stop shilling your literal who board.
>>504138>Wasn't EU3 Byz pretty much the original meme nation?EU2 Byzantium was
>>504143>like east Asian nations modernizing and catching up, even becoming the new powers.More, "East Asians remaining the premier powers".
>>504149I mean as in "catching up" with the game. Probably worded it wrong.One of the biggest problems of EU4 is the retarded institution system. So the Renaissance was obviously huge in Europe, but it doesn't make sense that China gets behind because it (a player can "cheat" the system tho). Is the usual Paradox retardation, they want historically accurate events and "anything can happen" at the same time, so they deliver nothing. And printing press is even worse. Whatever the current state of the world the printing press spawn in a protestant German province, is retarded.
>>504169Play MEIOU.China gets Meritocracy from the start. Europe won't get that until about 1700s (reminder that you can't just spam development in MEIOU, as there is no development). China also starts ahead in technology, even if slightly.Then Europe gets banking, Ren and casual literacy.THEN every other institution is free for grabs. On top of this, certain high-tier buildings can generate, if slowly, development of missing institutions in their province.The end result is that whoever plays well or gets lucky with RNG, ends up with all the institutions embraced, while everyone else lags behind. I once had a game where Spain absolutely refused to embrace casual literacy and meritocracy, DESPITE being the country that transmitted meritocracy from Far East.
>>504143Only that they aren't in any itteration of the game, so you are literally complaining about things that exist solely in your head, schizo.
>>504138/pol/ is good for when 'happenings' are occuring.But that's only if you care about geopolitics.
>>505939>Play MEIOU.Maybe if they manage to make a functional AI.>>505945It's the next DLC, retard.
>>498886Cortez and the bois spent two consecutive days dabbing on the Tlaxcalans until they came to a truce and allied to btfo the Aztecs
>>482184>click the "embrace institution" button>every single person in the country becomes a rennaisance man the next day>click the "embrace institution" button>every single person in the country now understand how to operate a printing press>click the "embrace institution" button>every single person in the country now trades globallyETC.
>>483828Even to this day, protestancucks are the ones denying evolution, that the earth is round, that vaccines work and that the world is not going to end any day.
>>482928they didnt need to, they spent all their tech points on arquitecture and religion
>>506226So it's still not in a game, making you a double retard, screetching about something that wasn't even released yet.Also>post-Third Rome>Giving a single flying fuck at whatever is still being added to EU4
>>509623>So it's still not in a game,Whoa, is almost if I'm talking about "then" and "now/near future".So, you're clueless and say that you don't even care yet still reply. I wonder who's the double retard here.
>>509508Actually no, the institution needs to naturally spread to enough of the population/provinces in order to be embraced. Then you pay money to embrace it, an active government decision to embrace and integrate the said institution into their ruling procedure, and then it rapidly spreads to the rest of your provinces.
>>486752>>486760>>487383>>487510>>487533I've been busy, sorry. Gonna try to get to it soonish>>486909You mean Mesoamerica or you mean actual South American/Andean?For Mesoamerica, my resource directory is pastebin.com/p42q14FfThis includes prior dumps I;'ve done here on 4chan, and towards the bottom of it, I link to an art drive, a book drive, and a link to a reddit post by somebody I collab with which has it's own set of resources, notably an Askhistorians post directory (IMO binging that list of askhistorians posts is the best starting place on Meso history, if you read all of those you'll have a solid starting foundation)A lot of this stuff needs to be updated, though: The pastebin itself hasn't been in a while, so it's missing a dump I did on Mesoamerican polearms (desuarchive.org/his/thread/9543560/#9555797), a conquest related one(desuarchive.org/his/thread/9543560/#9549778 ); one with various excerpts of Aztec cities, markets, palaces, etc (arch.b4k.co/v/thread/533899049/#533929352)and my Mesoamerican media recommendations (desuarchive.org/co/thread/119651972/#119695404 note this doesn't mention Onyx Equinox, which the thread itself was about). The art/book drive and reddit post themselves haven't been updated in a while either: For the art drive in particular, there's a LOT of other images I need to sort through to add; and I'm undecided if photos, site maps, or content from artists who already post their content online will ever get added to it, both due to space reasons and risks me stepping on the toes of contacts of other hobbyists.So if you are wanting image references, info, etc not contained in any of these (or have questions about what's shown in a specific image in the drive, or if a given book is up to date; as not everything is labeled or 100% accurate) there's a good chance I may still have what you want, you just need to ask. My throwaway email is in the pastebin link, tho i'm bad about replying quickly
>mesotard is a redditorColor me not surprised.
>>511570>and a link to a reddit post by somebody I collab with >somebody I collab with
If you guys are actually curious about the conquest of new Spain, highly recommend gomaras account. He was cortezs secretary. Handguns were not very useful; cannons were and horses were tremendous. The natives had no anti cavalry tactics so a Spanish horseman could lance them at his pleasure, easily killing 50+ in a battle. The author actually lists every time they lost a horse in battle, they were that useful. The allies were useful, especially for grunt work (they made like 24 bridandine boats in the Gulf of Mexico and had their allies haul them over land to tenochotilan.), but cannons mounted on boats +horses were tremendous game changing technologies.
>>482208This is why I hate paradox games. You never really feel immersed because they are so obviously spreadsheets and map painting.
>>511719Maybe I should just reply to this when I do the rest of my posts, but just to nip it in the bud, I'd caution against Gomara's account: Gomara is recounting Cortes's version of events many, many years after the fact, and in doing so introduces myths and erronous information not present in Cortes's original account, which itself already has bias issues as a result of Cortes writing them with the specific purpose of justifying his own actions which were treasonous, and to try to get himself rewards for his actions.That's not to say that Gomara's account can't be useful, based on what you say it sounds like some versions of it have pretty handy annotations, but if you have to pick just a few sources to consult, I'd use a good translation and well annoted version of Cortes's original letters over the Gomara version. Pic related is the Conquest section from the Mesoamerican reading chart I'm working on, and is the only complete (though I may still add 1-2 books to it) section of that image.But yeah, I do agree with your assertion that of any single technological or tactical advantage, calvary and cannons were the biggest. Still, those alone could not and did not make up for the gap in numbers and logistics between Cortes's party and the city-states, kingdoms, and empires he and other Conquistadors were up against: The holes blown into Mesoamerican battle lines by calvary charges and cannonfire had to be exploited by the sizable infantry of allied Mesoamerican armies. I'll probably get into that more when I do my 20+ post long reply dump to other stuff in the thread though
>>499850>It's hilarious how considering all the flaws of the game, all you have to complain is getting triggerePersonally I stopped reading here.
>>482672The conquest of the Aztecs was an unrealistic scenario in the first place tee bee ayych
>>482208This was an okay post until that last, immensly faggy sentance. Like i was teleported to reddit or some circlejerk forum for a second
>>487009>you don't disprovedretard-kun?
>>514082Interesting, thanks for the post. Similar narrative-crafting took place surrounding the conquest of Pirú.
>>516887Please dont let this thread die yet - I really need those sweet (you)s from ParaCucks defending their favorite tribe of stone age retards that never thought of making a wheel thats actually used for something practical (basketball hoops dont count)
>>527772Since you are so desperate, grab one
>>527772No Anon, unlike the old Greeks or Egyptians, bronze age civilizations, the Aztecs were super-advanced and civilized. You can tell that from the daily human sacrifices and their lack or advanced metallurgy, complex artifacts, and poor sailing, not only they were too dumb to use the wheel for stuff like wheelbarrows or mills. Truly modern age people.
>>482184The ignorance of this thread kinda frustrates me so im gonna throw my 2 cents in. Before anything, I would like to make it clear that paradox is dumb and this mechanic is not only historically innaccurate, but downright bonkers. Now I got that out of the way, let me explain to you the mesoamerican civilizations, how "civilized" they were, and why they had some things we would consider typical over in europe. For starters, lets look at their heavy use of stone in architecture and buildings. Keep in mind that in mesoamerica, surface metals were primarily gold iirc, which is more decorative then anything, hence to why gold was used so much in buildings, statues, and other things of that nature. Forging technically existed then, but it was really nothing like it was in europe. I also see people interpret ritual sacrifice = savage, despite the fact ritual sacrifices were a thing in european (and beyond) civilizations up to the early middle ages. Its also important to note that the Aztecs were very military driven, and were the Sparta to Maya's Athens. Speaking of the mayans and it's culture, you could argue the mayans were alot more "advanced" then the aztecs, atleast culturally. They had their own numerals, documented history, studied in astrology, were focused in trading, and housed many philosiphers. The mayans at the very least were pretty "civilized" and advanced, I would argue to the point of reaching some form of middle ages. Now, to cover all youve been waiting for, the wheel. First, you have to understand that mesoamerican society existed in very dense jungles and tropical climates. That means its very hard to navigate, let alone make roads. Simply put, things outside of dirt paths were really not used, and so using the wheel, though possible, wasnt very practical. Not to mention the mesoamerican societies were very close together. In conclusion, the americas were very different for a reason, and so its hard to fairly compare them to the old world.
>>513267They were always like that, so what's your point here? Because it reads like this>I hate what this company is doing for past 20 years, from their very first gameThey've adopted a fucking boardgame into a vidya format and then just run with it for the rest of their existence. And here you are, 20 years later, confused.
>>527867>Bait thread>Bait replyThis is getting better by a minuteAlso, you seems to miss the memo that cultural and technological development is a linear and pre-definied tree, where every civilisation research the same things as comparable rates, unless they are retarded and don't research at all. Lmao at you and your ignorance.Because really, WHERE do you think you are?
>>482861>EU3 westernization was much betterThree's technology system was much better in general. I don't mind having mana for niche actions that a good monarch would actually have control over, but tying tech and national ideas to it was a bad idea.
>>482861Westernization is a shit system, both for gameplay and historic purposes. Glad it's gone. We just need to either drop or revamp institutions.
>>527772>still complaining about based Mayaincaztecs whie ignoring 'average leftards mental masturbation aid' -tier magical shit like >>492031
>>485773I did that, it is nostalgic, basically, you had nothing to do within 300 years
>>485233>he doesnt know we lost most historical information because most societies had oral traditions
>>532753And yet we know the bronze age Greek, Egyptians, Phoenicians, even the Sea Peoples, were able to sail (and dunno, write).So guess you're right, bronze age technology level is too advances for mesoamerica, the other guys are wrong about calling them "bronze age retards", should switch to "stone age retards" or something.
>>485233Sailing developments generally only appear in or around seas, and spread from there. This is because sailing outside one of those is difficult, even for people used to sailing in seas. The Incas never had access to a sea. It's that simple.
>>533425Nta and I know that you are just baiting for (You)s, but explain me something:What FOR would you develop sailing?And this is not a tricky question. What kind of benefit do you have from sailing in a region that:- doesn't have enclosed, inland sea- has regular hurricanes- there is nothing within the reach of a boat for few days of sailing if you leave coastal zone- it is perfectly viable and possible to simply walk to your destinationAnd of course, what >>533449 already mentioned.And pic related is for context. Really makes you wonder why Greeks put such massive effort into sailing.Should I find a map of Egypt for similar context of what's flowing right through the middle of it and is the main artery of not just transport, but life and thus where all the settlements is.I mean fuck man, when you want to bait, at least construct it in such a way that it can't be dismissed just by looking at a map.
>>533449>The Incas never had access to a sea...Yea-NOPE! THEY HAD THE ENTIRE OCEAN TO THEMSELVES TO TRY AND SWIM ALONG THE WHOLE CONTINENT'S SHORELINE FOR FUCK'S SAKE YOU LEFTARDED HOMOSEX ! ! !
>>536407>Can't tell the difference between a sea and an oceanWhy is an animal posting on 4chan?
>>536511>water isnt water if theres too much of it...Your point being?
>>536511Definition of sea1a : a great body of salt water that covers much of the earth broadly : the waters of the earth as distinguished from the land and airb : a body of salt water of second rank more or less landlocked the Mediterranean seac : oceand : an inland body of water —used especially for names of such bodies the Caspian SeaYou can check any dictionary you want. And google "Caribbean sea" or "Chilean sea" while you're at it. Seems you knowledge of the language and geography are as good as you history.Also explain how old China, SEA nations or Japan developed sailing in their "oceans". Hell, even east African nations could sail.
>>536680>Definition of Sea>Not even looking at a map to see if it's one of the areas we collectively label "Sea".Moron.>Also explain how old China, SEA nations or Japan developed sailing in their "oceans".Sea of Japan, East China Sea, and Nusantara.>East AfricansGiven the construction of Swahili ships, we're almost entirely certain they were modeled after Somali ships, and naval developments there followed those of the Red Sea. It also helps that regular monsoon winds made consistent long-distance travel in small vessels fairly easy. >>536676>*woof*Seriously, animals don't belong on 4Chan.
>>536706>>Not even looking at a map to see if it's one of the areas we collectively label "Sea".Like this one. I even told you about googling them before confirming yourself as a complete retard. >Sea of JapanSo, the Pacific ocean, according to you.>East China Sea, and Nusantara.The Indian Ocean. Again, according to your retarded definition.>naval developments there followed those of the Red SeaYet they sailed to Zanzibar, Madagascar, etc before having contact with the Arabs.>b-but that's close!So is Cuba and the rest of Caribbean islands to Mexico.
>>536407>>536511>>536676>>536680>>536706>>536756Keep it coming
>>536756>Caribbean Sea>A place their empire only began to near shortly before their complete fallIf you want to pivot, just tell me. I'll pretend I saw nothing.>So, the Pacific ocean, according to you.The Sea of Japan is in the Pacific Ocean, yes.>The Indian Ocean. China's Eastern seaboard doesn't touch the Indian Ocean, no. You're missing the important point: The sailing environment isn't rough, and there's an abundance of good ports.>Yet they sailed to Zanzibar, Madagascar, etc before having contact with the Arabs.Yes. Was that intended as a counter-argument?>So is Cuba and the rest of Caribbean islands to Mexico.I won't pretend to know about Mayan or Mexican naval developments.
>>536841So, unlike stone age negroes Mesoamericans couldn't sail for shit. Glad we agree again.
>>536706Dont you dare barking at me you literal mongrel Burgerstanian
>>536857>"stone age negroes"Dumbass Americans...
>>538465>Self-bumping own bait
>>538486700 hours in MS Paint later
mesoniggermericans didnt even have cities or tools, how exactly are they going to reform their religion if they cant even make tools?
>>538596Doubling down on human sacrifices? Also obsidian knives are tools too, you bigot.
>>538596>how exactly are they going to reform their religion if they cant even make tools?In your brain, this has to make sense.
>>485705Also they only lacked a linguistic writing system - they kept accounting and census data in a system of knotted strings
>>487533Seems like something that should happen more?I'll be honest, I was expecting this board to be a lot more /pol/ than it has been.
>>540074Reformatting, because I've fucked up spoilerThis board is basically /v/ lite for the most part. The only difference is the restriction on genres, but other than that, it's just /v/. There is minimal overlap with /vr/ the old one, pre-date shift, which turned /vr/ into a Bizarro version of /v/ and /tg/, out of all places, but that's about it. So whatever """political""" (quotations marks badly needed) content /vst/ gets is just the state of /v/ as such: bunch of underage trying to be edgy and not knowing much about anything, but in the same time doing it solely for the sake of edge and open bait, rather than convictions of any sort.
>>540074Also, consider the following:/his/ has virtually nothing but disdain toward video games, for the fact that it brings to THEM complete retards sprouting nonsense they've learned from games.Do you have the slightest idea how tiresome it is when you have to explain time and again to people that technological development isn't a linear path or how geographic determinism can wage from being a non-factor to bein a decisive one and thus making context important? And half of /his/ is just dealing with it, the other half being /pol/ raiding it. So they are too busy to go anywhere, aside crazy.
>>541435>do you have the slightest idea how tiresome it is when you have to listen again and again to mesotards coping with their stone age civilization? Sound really tiresome indeed. Just look at this thread, 250 post of pure cope with no proof of technological or social advancements over the early bronze age.
>>541435I remember believing the internet would make people better-informed. What happened?
>>541455Thanks for proving the point>>541462Nothing, really. Internet from the very start was a cess-pool of misinformation, since it allowed easy contact to all kinds of schizoids. I doubt you can recall mid-90s prepper internet, but that shit makes peak /pol/tards look like reasonable and well-informed people with moderate beliefs
Paradox just does not know how to make good alternate history, and this is the most evident in EU4 where we see the same pattern.>Historical Winners are given a full game of constant struggle and survival to play. At worst hard-won victories to them are given for free at times.>Historical Losers just get survive until massive boost gameplay followed by mindless blobbingAnd this is true for everything, from hordes to Byzantium to the Americas.The survival of the Aztec or Inca is entirely plausible within the game's frame. Some smaller tribe natives IRL were able to relatively quickly adapt to gunpowder, horses, and world stage diplomacy, and such nations, especially if led by the centuries-long guidance and hindsight of the Player, could as well do the same.Of course to think about the century-long process of adaptation and struggle that would need to happen, about the hard choices like if you should convert to Christian or not, or even the effect the loss of the flow of new world silver would have on Europe, would be too much for Paradox. So here is a meme button. Click it and get super sun god soldiers.
>>543499>Historical Winners are given a full game of constant struggle and survival to play.I can't tell if you're joking. Please name the examples you had in mind.
>>543499>I don't actually play at all, I'm just baiting: The PostThe level of contradiction within actual game rules and gameplay and your post is just fucking staggering.This is low even for a bait thread.
>>495271built by semite traders
>>499309>some bronze era (stone age even in some regards) tribal spear-chuckersyou're overestimating the abbos. they regressed from the paleolithic.
>>543691He is talking about Native Americans
>>543633But you're the only one who replied to him.
EU series = trash for chuds, incels and cocksmoking faggots from reddit who think "epic rap battles of history" is funnyi shit on faggots who play EU series gayms
>>482928Some crazy adventurers apparently managed it with kon-tiki tier semi-boats, as long as the sea was calm enough to not kill them. But I would consider the technological sophistication of that on par with the boat Tom Hank's character built by himself in Cast Away.Technology-wise South and Meso American civilizations were equivalent of Bronze age civilizations in Middle-East and Anatolia, of course minus their naval, weaponry and wheel technology. North American "civilizations" were basically savages that lived like Sub-saharan Africans without anything that resemble civilizations. What people meme about North American Natives reflect their culture after hundreds of years of interaction with Europeans. They were big on tobacco, that I would give them. They just sat in their small tribal huts and smoked their tobacco, never sailing, never attempting to have agriculture, never building anything at all.
>>548341>chuds, incelswhat board do you think you're on?
>>538596They absolutely had cities and tools
>>553836>Technology-wise South and Meso American civilizations were equivalent of Bronze age civilizations in Middle-East and Anatolia, of course minus their naval, weaponry, wheel and BRONZEwelp
>>485250glad you admitted sudacashits are genetically inferior
>>482184>have a "reform religion" button to put you immediately on par with european nations>don't push itWhat the fuck Japan
>>555240>took them 300 yeas to find the buttonLMAO noobs!
>>555287Forget you. Italian states are fun.
>>485674Based understander of history.
>This thread is still on>For weeks now>Despite not discussing games at fucking allTruly, the peak of jannie efficiency
>>556852>UGH guiiise the teacher told us to not make any noise and study quietly, don't talk about other stuff!!!!!I hate your kind. I hated your kind my entire life and I will keep hating you.
>>556696>mesotards>even more advanced than eurosNeither that guy nor you understand history.
>>557471>I am a shitposter and I'm proud of thatftfy
>>486752I can distinctly see Minecraft blocks in the top right
>>483477How's the jail cell, Ted?
>>553836This.>>556696Ethiopians and Malians were more civilized than American natives.
>>560650>How's the jail cell, Ted?It's ok, considering the circumstances I guess...
>>557571You're completely lost. Head back to >>>/v/
>>564840>they were really advanced>"how?">g-go back to /v/Really compelling argument. That "advanced" arguments won't work on high school tho, you should try finishing it.
>>482928They never invented the fucking wheel
>>557471You are a retard , you are what kills any niche community stay on topic or GTFO.
Why the fuck is this still getting bumped. If you have something to say, either say it or let the thread die.
At this point I don't know if he's retarded or he just want to see how retarded the moderation team can be. Probably both.Maybe we should post anime girls to bump limit or something.
Mayans/Aztecs before arrival of the Conquistadors:>Hahaha! Muh obsidian sword-club blades can cut through anything thats alive, too bad it cant chip at all thru any metals and hard stones - lets hope none of our enemies will ever think of making full-body metal armour for their troops... *Conquistadors arrive with guns and steel armor/weapons to America* Herman Cortez: >HELLO THERE~
>>482184>not converting to a catholic theocracy to effortlessly roll over all of north america's tribes in a handful of years
>>580087Anon, anyone can tell you this: There wasn't enough armor, and there weren't enough guns, to cause the Aztecs to be taken down. The maneuverability of horsemen broke traditional Aztec engagement formations, and allowed them to be easily routed and pursued.
>>582965That not the point I was making - When you can easily find a piece of volcanic glass thats absurdly sharp with a minimal effort in knapping the stone properly because it can easily decapitate or pierce-thru anything alive by default, there is little to no incentive for a given civilization's members to actually try improving their tools and come up with stuff like metallurgy if literally a very sharp rock was good enough to work untill 1519 Its literally the same reason why most Sub-Saharan Afrika tribes were purely hunter-gatherer societies before the whites came and showed them how to farm and irrigate their own land beyond a subsistence-farming level of efficiency (note that pointing stuff like this out in public can somehow have you be labled as a Nazi in some parts of modern western society for no real reasons)
>>583345>Its literally the same reason why most Sub-Saharan Afrika tribes were purely hunter-gatherer societies before the whites came and showed them how to farm and irrigate their own land beyond a subsistence-farming level of efficiency (note that pointing stuff like this out in public can somehow have you be labled as a Nazi in some parts of modern western society for no real reasons)Because most people assume you at least have enough of an education to know this is wrong. Most weren't just subsistence farmers, no. Name your regions if you honestly believe this, because it wasn't true in any of coastal West Africa, it wasn't true in any area touching the Niger, Senegalese, Congolese, or Nile Rivers, it wasn't true in the Great Lakes area, it wasn't true in the Horn, it wasn't true in the Swahili coast, etc. There were communities that didn't keep food for grain or sale, but that usually had to do with difficulties with food preservation, stemming from their choice of crop, or the environment,
Why didn't mods pruned this shit yet?
Truly blessed thread already about this issue:https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/after-leviathan-this-game-needs-a-huge-revamp-balancing-update.1466227/page-6Specifically, PyroMegaManZ and his interlocutors!>>583923It's explicitly about an EU4 mechanic. Try the forum I just linked if you want things that make you uncomfortable to get locked.
>>584930>Mr. Capiatlist>Mademoiselle Gothique (she/her/hers)>Okay. This thread is taking quite a bit of energy to moderate, which means it's probably beyond it's usefulness.This company has already hit its peak. We need a replacement.
>>584955At least they didn't delete it outright, that's 7 pages almost of enjoyable discussion on the same topic.
>>584955What tf was he "Moderating"
>>584930Whoa that dude is like the Mesotard but with Abbos. They could be friends and talk edlessly about how the evil white man ruined their utopian and incredibly advanced stone age civilizations.
>>585328Mesoanon was cool. He knew what he was talking about, and provided countless sources to back everything he said. I hope he made it out.
>>585331>provided countless sources......that prove him wrong if you bother to read them. Almost all of them, outside some "unorthodox" (at best) sources that you could use on Ancient Ayys or other reality TV show.
>>585335>...that prove him wrong if you bother to read them.Remember any examples?
>>585337I don't give enough fucks to bookmark them or something. I'll ask for some on this thread but he refused to post any link or source to back up his argument for that exact reason, any sensible source would tell you they were less advanced than Mediterranean bronze age civilizations.
>>585342>any sensible source would tell you they were less advanced than Mediterranean bronze age civilizations.That doesn't say much of anything. >but he refused to post any link or source to back up his argument for that exact reasonYou just said his posted sources either contradicted him, or were iffy. I have a few of the names he linked in his arguments.Lee, Jongsoo. Hassig, RossRabasa, JoséRestall, MatthewWas there really an issue?
>>585352>I have a few of the names he linked in his arguments.Cool. Now, as I said carefully read them, since you're the one interested.No, I ain't going to waste more time proving him wrong for you.
>>585331That's the exact same as the guy in Paradox thread, spammed a sources list without showing familiarity through relevant quotes.
>>585365>"Read through books you don't have to affirm my claim that Mesoanon's sources contradict his claims. No, I'm not giving you page citations for the contradictions or examples to look for!"Could you be any worse about this?
>>482184Once I migrated Iceland to Mexico and reformed Nahuatl as them.But I couldn’t figure out how you were supposed to be able to declare war on colonies without their overlord joining so I stopped
>>585386Why would you expect him to do that when the guy who listed them in the first place didn't?
>>585397Because his claim is that there was a contradiction. You don't follow that with, "It's somewhere in the books he referenced, don't ask me where". You at least give an example to discredit the guy. Otherwise we're just at, "He didn't directly cite the source text enough, complete with citations", which is a far cry from the objection presented.
>>585412>just real all the works of these guys and make a essay explaining why they support your pointOr, if you actually cared, you'll read them yourself. But we both know you are here only to shitpost.
>>585457>Or, if you actually cared, you'll read them yourself.I'd read through all the books Mesoanon linked? For a topic I have little interest in? To find contradictions you say exist but won't point to? Stop shitposting.
>>585488>I'll die on this hill defending mesoanon>but I don't really care about mesoamericaGood try mesotard, but you're too obvious.
>>585561>I'll die on this hill defending mesoanonDon't use phrases if you don't know their meanings.
Paradox' forums have a bunch of interesting threads right now about natives' tagging/Leviathan. It's funny watching classic GSG autists, who don't care about politics and love to escape into history sims, naively engage in good faith with these politics-infested revisionists. The think nothing when they nicely correct someone's wacko alt conspiracy but end up in arguments.
>>482184But I wanted to conquer the world as the Aztec’s as they were not what they could become
>>585723Aboriginal tags are the probably the dumbest tags they added so far tho. Making a "centralized" tags for all the tribes/groups/clans/etc would mean making a tag for almost every single colonizable province. Why just the Abbos and not the Caribs, SA tribes like Kuruminha or all the African ones?
>>586031>Abo clans got in before the Mandara Kingdom or any part of the Sao Civilization.PDX devs are having a laugh, aren't they?
>wheres the evidence?>it's not my job to educate you, bigot!Every time
>It turns out that Central America nations did know about how the wheel works but limited its usage only for childrens toys of all things... Native tribes fetishism was a mistake
EU3 was full of retarded shit. EU4 took that and upgraded it totally fucking retarded shit. Faggots of course love totally fucking retarded shit. So EU4 fanbois take that shit, fill a condom with it, stick it a freezer, and then when its frozen solid use it fuck themselves raw. They squeal like bitches.
>>586099>Native tribes fetishism was a mistakeThat only came as a result of syncretic practices being brought through the slave trade.
>>586161>me sees game me no like>me will make super smart post to get many upvotes>"game dumb!">haha look guys give me upvotes me so smart
there are cultures that make a nation advance more technologically (and some technological advances are much more important in a competitive world, like warfare) and socially than others, if one could artificially engineer a culture for a society get better it would be pretty good.and organized religions, but secularized, are better for homogenizing culture
>>586095>Abos and maoris weren’t primitive savages!>they have the same unit sprites from tech 0-31If I was excited about playing them I’d be so pissed
>>585331He was a moron who spammed the same source list and never answered any questions. /his/ is trash, you can find better historical discussions on /lit/
>>586544>/his/ is trash, you can find better historical discussions on /lit/Anything about Pre-Colonial Africa or the Americas there?
>>586721When someone posts a thread looking for book recs on those subjects, yes
>>586099The reason I heard was that they didn't use the wheel for religious reasons. Which is understandable, since there are plenty of cases of important technologies being unused because of religion - for example, the Celts with writing.
>>586768I'm almost entirely certain it was because they didn't know how to manufacture axles.
>>586771That could also be it. I haven't done much, if any, research into use of the wheel in Central America. The terrain is another factor of consideration, since that area has pretty rough terrain, and you either have mountains in the north (i.e. Aztec territory) or jungle in the south (Maya, Zapotec). Wheels tend not to work too well in those conditions.
>>586774Yeah. That's before you consider wheel and path maintenance. There's a paper floating around where a guy examined conditions in Burma and Ghana, and found that, while they attempted to maintain roads and embrace wheeled transport, they struggled, and were largely unable to prior to the invention of the rail. This, primarily because the trees and weather would tear roads apart or regularly create roadblocks. The ground might be uneven, the wheels more easily worn, or beasts of burden more difficult to come by. In the end, porters and herdsmen would just make do without them.
>>586778Hell, even in Mexico things inland were done on muleback all the way though 1900. There's just no meaningful way to connect disparate settlements across endless mountains except by narrow trails and your trusty burro.
The fucking state of moderation of this board....
>>586774>>586778>>587079Can't you keep this Jared Diamond style racism on /pol/? Your posts don't make sense when these cultures are especially known for a deeper understanding and control of nature, a more spiritual connection. I'd like to see that represented in the game. But the tags are a good addition if you want to RP that they decided to exploit their area like the colonists did, except they should be able to develop faster since their natural affinities mean they wouldn't have the same struggles with the climate that the Euros did.
>>588411>Can't you keep this Jared Diamond style racism on /pol/?Did you click the wrong posts?>Your posts don't make sense when these cultures are especially known for a deeper understanding and control of nature, a more spiritual connection. I'd like to see that represented in the game.Anon, FFS...
>>588411>Your posts don't make sense when these cultures are especially known for a deeper understanding and control of nature, a more spiritual connection... New Age hippie retard detected! Would you also advocate to ritually slaughter captured war prisoners every time the crops fail - like your beloved natives used to?
>>588446They're not even BronzeAge retards anon - StoneAge+ at most, thanks solely to 'muh obsidian mothafucka' (not actually dissing the rock tool use by itself tho - you could reliably perform complex surgery with a well made obsidian scalpel) >>588451Also this probably - how would carving out peoples hearts actually help with a bad farming season??? Did they even cremate the corpses to improve the soil quality, or just have discarded the bodies to feed the condors or something?
>>485445You will never be a woman
>>588462I read somewhere that during the Bronze Age, the vast majority of tools was actually still stone, because bronze was so preciously rare.
>>482184what is this horseshit update and why is every primitive native tribe now 60 dev????
>>588418>Did you click the wrong posts?No, those posts were in his exact environmental racist style.>>58857960 dev is actually a severe under representation of how strong and spiritually commanding a relationship some of these peoples had to their land.
>>482184What is so surprising? Paradox has become all about "Click, I win!"
>>588595That's gsg in general, really shallow compared to other strategy and even tactics games.
>>482841Its ahistorcial by default, brainlet.History (mostly) didnt play out because someone made a single dumb decision but because of developements spanning centuries.Most of all, no real Nation was ever guided by an all seeing and in game terms immortal intelligence over the course of century (either the AI or the player),making it ahostorical by default.You want to real history, read a book. this is a game, and the interesting part is to explore what would have hapopened if the Aztecs werent retarded in this case.
>>588695In which case, tard fucker, you would be better off generating random civilizations with random technologies on randomly generated fictitious world. So fuck off and go play Civ.
>>588695>the interesting part is to explore what would have hapopened if the Aztecs werent retardedSo we agree the game were more fun if the Aztecs were lizardmen, right? Oh wait, GW will sue you. Then they could be octopus people with spaceships instead, that's cool too.
>>588588>No, those posts were in his exact environmental racist style.Anon, if the word "environment" is able to take over your brain like that, seek help.
>>588546>YOU WILL NEVER BE AN AZTEC/MAYANfixed it for you :)
>>484346>Simulation sidethen watch a fucking movie, faggot, a game is meant to be played, and therefore won't end up being 'historically accurate'.
>>589138>I don't understand the word simulation Why are you in this board?
>>589145>I don't understand why things might end up differently historically if they occur differently and every event leading up to them is completely different, this is nothing like my simulations
>>589149>proving my pointGood job I guess.
>>589145>>588769>the same faggots that parrot this belief are the ones who write out 10,000 word essays about how Hitler could have won if literally every part of his strategy had been different and the allies also never allied with each other
>>589128>You will never be a womanfixed it for you :)
>>589161No worries fren, Im not a mentally ill faget braiwashed into hating myself by the liberal media of corrupt western megacorporations ;^p
>>589152>if you don't like retarded alt-history you must write retarded alt-historyAre you OK?
Did 1.31.3 fix any major problems like the save corruption after 1506
>>588725You realise there is an option for that in EU4 for years... right?
>Being this much obsessiveDo those ideas at least pay rent, or they are living in your head for free?
The whole appeal of this Paradox box-clicker is the simulation of a historic setting. You want it to feel like it would mostly go according to actual history, besides a little variation and player influence every time. If you want ahistorical abstract and non-sim representations of our world cultures, there is Civ etc.Crazy fantastical meme shit is okay as long as it's an optional setting. Maybe they should have a more grounded setting you can opt into. Then they can still market the game with the gimmicks like hunter-gatherer empires.
>>589437>t. never actually played EU, not just 4, but anyWhy are you even posting?
>>538596that's abos you are thinking about
how is this thread still alive???
EUIV is a shitty gameand people who play it suck dick and eat shit
is leviathan playable yet?
>>590515From Dharma onward, it's all unplayable
>>589438He's right. Maybe if Paradox is the only shit you play, you'd end up thinking it's alt history, just because it's not literally realistic. But compared to absolutely everything else of note, their appeal is the history simulation. You could be playing much better strategy games from the rest of the industry, if you don't care for the history sim.
>>589437>Crazy fantastical meme shit is okay as long as it's an optional setting.Then they wouldn't be able to get the computer to do anything right.
>>592101No, he's not.Last time EU series was about anything else than alt his, it was EU2. You know, the game that made them big and famous. From there onward it's just full-blown alt-his, especially after old-style events and flags got removed.EU4 is a truly baffling game, design-wise, because everything is geared for alt-hist from a get go, but in the same time national ideas are made semi-historical, enforcing certain playstyles. Which is ridiculous, given the whole game is build for open sandbox.So you are talking straight from your ass, friendo, projecting some utter bullshit about series that abandoned any pretense of realism or historical simulation potentially before you were even born.
>>592551>but in the same time national ideas are made semi-historical, enforcing certain playstyles.And it gets even more retarded if you try to roleplay as your country. Be reformed Dutch, have like +7 tolerance for heretics... great...The game actually encourages them to remain catholic via modifiers cause too much heretic tolerance is wasted points
>>592551>everything is geared for alt-hist from a get go, but in the same time national ideas are made semi-historical, enforcing certain playstyles. Which is ridiculous, given the whole game is build for open sandbox.The mission tree is a worse offender. If you play a historically successful nation and want to complete the missions for bonuses, flavor, etc, you're "forced" to repeat history during half game. Then if you play some less successful nation with a developed mission tree and want to play like a sandbox, the missions also "force" you yo play the "what if" as they want, not at you want nor how the game progress (maybe the circumstances make you inherit something, change religion or you government).And lets not even start with the retarded "one way" trade flow that never changes. Even if Ming or the Aztecs became the most important power in the world and Europe turns into a devastated, burned and balkanized dumpster fire, the trade still flow to them.
>>592551You aren't even disagreeing, your reply was anticipated:>if Paradox is the only shit you play, you'd end up thinking it's alt history, just because it's not literally realistic. But compared to absolutely everything else of note, their appeal is the history simulationYou explicitly compare it to the earlier Paradox release and that they're not realistically historical.
>>592588You can collect anywhere anon
>>592602>china colonizes the whole american continent >they can't literally get good from there>this is fine because you can collect in american nodes with "just" a huge penaltyFuck off Johan, you game is shit.
>>592551>From there onward it's just full-blown alt-his,It's Alt-His with a ton of mechanical railroading that defies any idea of realism.
>>592605You can make America your center of trade. It’s not connected to your capital. Besides, if you actually did colonize all of America, you’d get 100% of the trade income even at half trade power. The trade systems has problems but switching linearity and keeping the rest of the system intact would cause more problems than fix.
>>592633>You can make America your center of tradeThen you have the penalties in your own home, which is even more retarded.
>>592633>You can make America your center of tradeOnly if you haven't formed a CN there, and that means ceding the rest of the land to someone else.
>>514082>>519516>>511719>>511519>>486752>>486760>>487383>>487510>>487533Sorry again for the delays with this, I've been having issues posting on 4chan lately and have been very busy, but the former, at least, is no longer an issue.I'm still very busy tho and the thread's fuckhuge by now, so I can't commit to replying to every little thing like I normally do, but I will try to address common/important stuff in the thread.I'm heading to bed now but tomorrow I'll try to start assembling responses to things.>>585328I challenge you to find a single time I've ever made post whining about evil whities or anything close to that. In fact pretty much every time I've been asked or comment on the morals of the Conquest or who was at fault or whatever I'd said I think it's an insanely stupid and pointless question, and that if anything I'd say that it was both the Conquistadors, the Spanish Crown, the Aztec, and other Mesoamerican states all trying to manipulate each other, and that by blaming it all on white people you're removing the agency and contributions of states like Tlaxcala, Texcoco, etc.>>585335>>585342Are you sure you're not mixing me up with the "Civilizational potential" poster?I go out of my way to try to double check my information and give disclaimers if anything I'm saying is particularly speculatory, in fact something I often say is that while I reccomend Restall's "When Montezuma Met Cortes", as >>585352 mentions, that at times I feel he doesn't provide enough citations and is relying a bit too much on his own speculation. you can even see me make that criticism in the image I posted here: >>514082Again, it's a good book, and is worth reading for the stuff he DOES cite, but to claim that I rely on fringe sources just isn't true. >>585373I've never used the Paradox fourms before, but link me the thread and I'll give it a look.
>>594574>link me the thread and I'll give it a look.https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/after-leviathan-this-game-needs-a-huge-revamp-balancing-update.1466227/page-6The thread has already been locked though, so there's no more fun arguments to come out of there, like "oral traditions are just as reliable as written records or archaeology." Still, the thread is an interesting read I guess.
>>482208Holy mother of based
>>482208>your weird power fantasythen, stop playing any videogame...asshole
Does anyone know how the hell I do to westernize the Aztecs without having to share a border province with the Europeans? I don't want half a map to conquer me so that I can advance in my goals
>>592624Again, the alt-his v.s. his distinction is meaningless besides comparing how realistic individual Paradox releases are. The fact is, they are ALL history sims when compared to the other big strategy games. The whole idea of them being alt-history actually depends upon them reflecting real history to begin with, otherwise people would be calling Civ alt-his rather than EU. History simulator + interactivity = alt history. But by definition, the base of the game needs to feel (not necessarily be) realistic for this to work, and this update doesn't feel historical to a lot of people, clearly.
>>596367>Again, the alt-his v.s. his distinction is meaningless besides comparing how realistic individual Paradox releases are.I mean EU4 as a whole is unrealistic. >The fact is, they are ALL history sims when compared to the other big strategy games.And outside that context, they're just games with a lot of historic flavoring.>But by definition, the base of the game needs to feel (not necessarily be) realistic for this to work, and this update doesn't feel historical to a lot of people, clearly.There has never been a point when this game was realistic, anon. This update brought us closer by fleshing out Southeast Asia at least, but the core mechanics and major balance points hold us back.
>>596355I'm not sure if it still works but I don't see why not.Start the game and take a province north of mexico so you can border one of the animists tribes (probably will be your hardest war). 100% one of them and offer to convert yourself to animism. Since you somehow have a government type that's technically not primitive you don't get all the maluses. From there you got two choices. Either you stay animist or set up an OPM that you can reform from later.For the 2nd one you can attack one lone guy in the gulf of mexico, force religion on him and make sure you're circling him properly so he can't blob out or get conquered.Develop feudalism+rennaisance, rush a bunch of techs to 5/7 and once you're ready you can flip back to nahuatl and do all the reforms really quickly and reform off that guy you left off.
>>483319Based and JaredDiamonpilled
>>483329European dickNever forget la Malinche
>>483366Chill Anon, repeat after me "is just a videogame"
>>483507But this is the most funny part
>>597376>la MalincheNTR Corruption Impregnation
>>499850>France in 9 out of 10 games ended up in a stalemate with Occitania for the entire gameWhat version of Big Blue Blob ruins Europe did you play?
>>483329To be fair, half of Mexico was being routinely raided for human sacrifices by the Aztecs. Also the Aztecs poisoned their wells with the amount of hearts they were throwing into them to appease the gods.
>>597408The total number of people killed in Aztec human sacrifice rituals < The number of people killed in a single French religious conflict.
What is the most primitive group that actually deserves a tag?
>>597648Khoisan, unless native mechanics are reworked.
>>502997>/pol/ is the site's designated news boardfucking kek, /pol/tard's can't hide their stupidity
>>482208Why does EU4 have so many disclaimers that it isn't balanced if this is there solely to balance the game?
>>597781> Implying that board even exists. Go there and tell me what you see.
>>597794Same reason they stress it's not historical yet the whole appeal is that. Or how they say it's not a sim but then it's not balanced like a game either. Evasion.
>>597794It's there to give the players something to do.
>>482184YODid they un fuck Leviathan yet? Is it safe to pirate now?
>>487110You did read and understand why he said that, right? He wasn't talking about 1 for 1.
>>598063i can only fun up to 1.13.1it seems like it's mostly unfucked now on 1.13.3
>>504138>You mean >>>/news/ by any chance?No. That board is for testing out bots against gullible retards who feel hurt because /pol/ called them the wrong skin color. If you want news you go to /pol/ and call eachother niggers while arguing about how a certain news event came about due to the influence of people with funny hats and large noses.
>paradox damage control shills bring up /pol/ as a way to strawman detractors>the thread becomes this
>>597408I'll address this later when I can but the Aztec didn't do human sacrifice raids. The Aztec Empire like most large scale Mesoamerican states didn't actually directly interefere with subjects that much, actually less so then most other large Mesoamerican states. Most sacrifice victims were captured enemy soldiers, volunteers, or slaves, and even slaves couldn't simply be sacrificed unconditionally and the Aztec didn't really do slave raids or demand slaves as tribute/taxes that often either.I've never heard of blood contamation being an issue with water sources, that sounds like hyperbolic shit you see in spanish sources from decades after the fact, especially since most freshwater in Tenochtitlan came way of aquaducts, in fact i'm not sure the city had ANY wells considering that most of it was litterally made out of artificial islands over a shallow brackish lakebed (though thanks to levees this was seperated into a fresh and brackish half with the city in the former), and any wells would have to be inside the relatively smaller portion of the city located on the natural existing island and that was mostly where the ceremonial and adminstrative structures were located as well as elite residences, and i'm not sure if there would even be fresh groundwater sources there due to the aformentioned geography either.
>>598232and im sure half their empire joined the white aliens because the aztecs were so nice and understanding about the sacrifices
>>598276As I said, I'll get into it in more detail when I reply to stuff throughout the thread, but no: The reason conquistadors got allies is PRECISELY because Mesoamerican political systems were hands off: It enabled subject states to act independently and encouraged opportunistic rebellions, coups, etc.City-state Y pledging or allying themselves to city-state Z to then overthrow your captial city Y and then conquer a bunch of other towns was a very, very common method of political advancement in Mesoamerican history: In a political system where even as a subject you got left alone anyways you had little to lose by pledging yourself to somebody else, and it'd put you in a position of higher standing in the new kingdom you helped prop up: That's what happened with the Spanish, and the Aztec Empire itself was founded in that exact manner a century prior.You say that "half the empire joined", but in the Siege of Tenochtitlan there were only around 7-8 states (out of hundreds) + their depedent towns/hamlets joined Cortes, but notably ALL of them aside from the Kingdom of Tlaxcala (which wasn't a subject, but an unconquered state the Aztec were invading) only joined Cortes AFTER Tenochtitlan was already struck by smallpox, Moctezuma II died, etc, when it was already vulnerable and had lost it's ability to inspire confidence in it's subjects, a big deal since Mesoamerican caaptials generally didn't directly govern their subjects and their authority rested on more abstract perceptions of powerThe Spanish Conquest wasn't oppressed subjects rising up and was more a 4d chess of different rulers all trying to manipulate Cortes (and other subsquent Conquistadors over the next few decades) into targeting their political rivals to try to be the ones in the most favorable position at the end, though this obviously backfired due to diseases and the Spanish not playing the same poilitical gameActually fuck it here's my longer writeup on this: https://pastebin.com/VqW97h93
>>598139>That board is for testing out bots against gullible retards who feel hurt>so you go to the r/the_donald safespace to avoid any real discussionPathetic thin skinned faggots.
>>598232>>598291>flower wars apologist And this is why nobody with half brain can take you seriously.
>>598525? Take your meds you fucking retard lmao
>>598525>Pathetic thin skinned faggots.t.Xipe Totec
>>598526You got any actual counterpoints to what I said?Also you seem to be under the impression that i'm trying to whitewash the Mexica here, i'm not: They and by extension the Aztec Empire were expansionist warmongers. But they categorically weren't oppressive ore imperialist, that's just factually not how their empire's political system worked.
>>598544>they categorically weren't oppressive>literally waging war for human sacrifices>weren't oppressiveAgain, there is no need to present a "counterpoint" at this oxymoron.
>>482208Stopped Reading At It's A Concession To Make Them Playable. FPBP.
>>599376So guess you love the new patch with the Abbos colonizing America before the Europeans and spawning colonialism in Australia. Is a concession to make them playable.
>Abbos colonizing America before the Europeans and spawning colonialism in Australia THB I actualy never gave a flying fuck about Paracux map painters, but this shit makes me want to repedarely pirate this turd from various torrent sites multiple times without even bothering with installing it just to inflate the piracy statistics for no reason besides to make those leftarded ass-jay-dubyas seethe into oblivion
Has anyone else just been totally sapped of the will to play EU4 after Leviathan?
What difficulty are you playing? Just had a Russia game and realized there wasn’t single declaration in me for 200 years. Also, no coalition ever formed despite me being kinda aggressive, but not going over 100 AE. It was on Hard.
>>483808>>485196>meme as synonym of humorousWhen will the pain end?
>>598547>literally waging war for human sacrificesWhy do you type if you can't read?>>598291Anon, I love the effort you put into your posts. Thanks for the quality writeups.
>>600113No. There's more to play with now.
>>600390>Why do you type if you can't read?Why do you post if you don't know shit? I mean, you could google "flower wars" and educate yourself instead of posting and prove that you're retarded and ignorant.
>>600921https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_warIt gives many motivations, with sources, that show the pragmatic aspects. >Excuse for failed/extended sieges>Way to coax enemies into fighting wars of attrition>Allows the military to remain politically-relevant instead of withering away>The results of the battles can change allegiances to favor the Aztecs."Human sacrifice" was just state propaganda.Did you turn off your brain at some point?
>>514082good chart man, I commend the fact that you try to be as unbiased as possible.
>>602055>However, some scholars have suggested that the flower war served purposes beyond gaining sacrifices From your own article. Funny how you actually turn off your brain at some point. Pure projection I guess.
>>604403>From your own article.Yes, from the page I linked. A sentence that leads away from Spanish hysteria and Aztec state propaganda to get to the practicalities of running a country.You couldn't make a weaker argument for yourself if you tried.
>>604493So you lack the most basic reading comprehension? That explains everything.
Is /vst/ just a /his/ colony?
>>604523Paradox threads have everything but strategy video games players.
>>599516YesFuck historical accuracy making everything boring as shit
>>604708Historical accuracy doesn't even need to be boring. The real-world outcome was so extremely unlikely that it should be rare to see in the game.
contributing to bump limit so this thread can die sooner
>>604708>historical accuracy making everything boringYeah because making every single country the same is more fun, right?
>>604779>>605388These.There are too many countries in EU4 to have Civ-like unique-but-balanced design. So there has to be massive imbalance to make most countries unique. And how do you decide that imbalance? Historical example. Your worldwide Abbo empire is still possible, it would just require maximum gaming of the system plus luck, a very hard mode basically. But handouts like reform-religion will either homogenous everyone or make the game lack regional difficulty and power variation..
>>482184>play as Japan>become catholic>somehow know about the reformation and can become protestant despite my only interaction with christians being spain
>>608888Quads of truth, fuck paradox
>>600113Nigga, last time I gave a shit, Cradle of Civilization was in development. Last time I've updated, Rule Britania was fresh out of print. I just stick to an outdated version of MEIOU, solely so I can avoid the shitshow that are new governments. So I don't even know what's up with EU4 and I don't really care.
>>608888>I never met the Dutch>Nor Angloids>I swear!You self-defeated your own argument with your idiocy
>>598147What else did you expect? Civil argumentation? Logic?
>>599516>So guess you love the new patch with the Abbos>>599701Anyone know why these guys exist now?I don't remember the British invasion of Aborigiland.With how EU4 doesn't have assimilation and displacement of natives, this just means, like New Spain's lack of Mexicans, Australia will be 50% native or have an Abor primary culture + Abor religion if the colonial nation is started by conquest, and hordes of line infantry separatists. It's fooking weird.I know Native Americans (Injuns, not the gold mines) are really weird too but besides hitting 70+ dev by 1600 thanks to the latest update, they didn't really affect colonisation because they weren't 50% of the landmass.It'd be like making a bunch of native nations in the Carib and pretending they weren't all dead in a hundred years.>>604708It's mostly boring as shit things being boring as shit. It doesn't have to be historically accurate. Like when your queen consort constantly offers you 50% off level 3 female advisors because cronyism/nepotism... but it's not interesting unlike events (or just your advisor generator) giving you Jewish/heretic/heathen/outside culture group advisors which can give you stab hits down the line.Guess which one's historical, because it's not the court full of superpowered [primary culture] [true religion] women with zero consequences.
>>611339>Anyone know why these guys exist now?Someone's pet project. He thought it'd be fun to play as Aboriginals.
>>611339>they all just happen to be in the heavily populated and developed parts of the countryGEE WHIZ WHAT ARE THE ODDS
>>611339>It'd be like making a bunch of native nations in the Carib and pretending they weren't all dead in a hundred years.More, leaving it open because the PoD is 1444, not 1600.
>>611992>>612049>>612143>Samefagging this hard>After derailing a thread, too
This shit still going on?
>>612049>northern territory and cape york>heavily populated and developed
>>612169Anon, only two of those are me.The middle one is someone else.
>>612256>I don't samefag that much! Just a bit!
>>612182What do you mean? Leviathan and the update aren't temporary. This is EU4.
>>612389Nah. Responded twice to the same post by mistake.
>>612678I meant this thread
>>613091No, that's +1
Here, grab one
>>482184there should just be an option for a european to always land near you
FFS kill this thread already tra~JAnies
Jannies kill it please.
>>482184They really shouldn't be playable at the scale EU4 represents.
>>627024They were playable even in the scale of EU1, so go fuck a goat
This is STILL going on?
cocks in mouth make mommy go YUM YUM
That's it, I'm nuking this thread with my unsorted folder.
>>630827>>630829>>630837gay and weebpilled>>630832>>630834just gay>>630816>>630819>>630821meh>>630823nice one>>630826>>630838okay>>630839I don't care about this robotOverall 3/10, you have pretty shit taste (/g/?;/an/?) /a/non
>>631204>Overall 3/10What did you expect from a 4yo unsorted folder? This thread doesn't deserve better.
>>631220Nta and thanks for the nuke
>>627946Whether they have been is irrelevant. A group should only be playable if historically they were capable of the mechanics you use in-game.>>632233It's sad people here are calling for similar shutdown of conversation. Maybe they should use Paradox forum instead?
>>633564>Maybe they should use Paradox forum instead?So a tranny can protect the posts instead of nuking them? Yes, guess some people should stick to Paradox forums or reddit, not here.