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Will Tlatoani be good?
>>
Never heard of it until now, but it looks like it has potential. I'm still waiting to see how Nebuchadnezzar turns out.
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>>413671
>I'm still waiting to see how Nebuchadnezzar turns out.
Anon I have bad new for you...
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>>413685
Lay em on me
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>>413668
Has massive potential, but obviously it's a single guy project, so it takes time. But the dev is really solid and for indie game standards, very good.

>>413688
Not him, but it's hot garbage
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>>413688
tl;dr alright foundation but lacks any difficulty of any kind (even the most basic things like wages and risk of collapse) and aesthetics lacks character as a whole
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>>413671
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGbJPEdwkyA
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>>413688
Imagine playing Zeus on the lowest difficulty possible and with wages disabled by default
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>>413734
Where I am going to get my Mesopotato fix now?
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>>413876
The guys who did the Predynastic Egypt are supposedly working on Sumerian bend on the concept, but how true that is - hard to tell.
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>>413922
>Sumerian
Why do people focus on southern Mesopotamia so much? The most interesting history is always on the north.
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>>413688
People don't like it due to (according to the YouTubers who got it early) lack of difficulty.

Since I just like building cities and infrastructure I'm still intending to play and enjoy it. I do hope some of the missing content gets added after release, though.
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>>413668
Has anyone actually been following this? I have a hard time even finding info about it.
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>>414259
Because it's easier to market, duh. All the familiar names are on the south.

>>414268
If "for last 2 months" counts, then I did. I've learned about it recently, played it for quite a while and as it looks now, pretty solid for a one-guy project. It has it issues, both in coding and design-wise (the "put up walls" Caesar 2 bullshit is fucking horrible decision, even if I understand why it's set up), but is very promising.
>>
>>414514
>the "put up walls" Caesar 2 bullshit
That just killed a lot of my interest honestly
>>
>>414514
Akkad is in the north, and Nineveh. And the Assyrians don't strike me as less known than the Sumerians.
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>>416249
Tell me about it. Fun game, but "you need walls to upgrade further" is pure bullshit, literally the last thing I want to see from past city-builders. Supposedly the dev himself isn't too keen about it, so there is a chance it will disappear, but that assumes people tell him that "hey, this fucking sucks"
>>
Wasn't this game called "Aztec Empire" or something like that?
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>>416277
Well yeah, everybody else is fucking dead in the region but Assyrians are still there.
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>>413668
>no floating gardens
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>>416608
Only that the game has it as a major part of its agriculture mechanics. Have you fucking bothered to play at all, or just claimed random bullshit like the idiots you are?
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>>416385
That's a different game, by different people and they are currently going nowhere in particular.
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>>413734
I understand where the guy is trying to get at, and by all means games should improve over time, not stagnate, but money and collapses were never an issue in any impression style game unless you played them as a kid who had trouble grasping things due to a language barrier or lack of experience. He points out that "expanding like this is punished" but that's just straight up wrong. I like revisiting Zeus pretty often and at the start of each scenario you can just shit out a ton of sub optimal housing blocks and be on your way, settlers will always arrive fast enough to get a job in a maintenance building so collapses become completely irrelevant as a mechanic. The further I got into the video the more his point became about not having to care about "inefficiencies" but this usually the case with city builders anyways, especially the Impression series where you can just brute force through problems. Shit like the lack of employment not generating crime sure sucks as far as making the city feel alive goes, but he's not really trying to argue about that. The kind of lazy approach he's using to tackle the scenario is something you can also do in the Impression city builders as far as I'm concerned.
>>
>>417308
Not part of the discussion, but go play Caesar 2 and 1. C3 was a MASSIVE step down in difficulty, thanks to implementation of far, far, far simplier to manage (but harder to use) trade system.
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>>417315
A step down in difficulty doesn't equate with a step down in quality. Not having to send diplomats to other factions in newer Total Wars makes diplomacy easier, but it also makes it better.
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>>417328
Note that I said it was a step down in difficulty, didn't even mention or suggest quality. You did.
My point is that people chimp out about "too easy", without realising the game they usually bring up as "the bestest" is fucking Caesar 3, which is ridiculously easy when compared with C2. Yet since they rarely (if ever) played it, they don't even realise how piss-easy the "classic" Impression's city builders are and how much of their difficulty is fake (no roadblocks, faulty blocks, employment walkers etc). Zeus gets a lot of slack for its design, but in reality that game just removed all the shitty clutter. Emperor took those, added few other QoL improvements and... nobody complained. Magic

tl;dr people chimp out about a non-issue. And the reason why I don't find Nebuchadnezzar appealing is general game design, along with setting used for it
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>>417335
>Note that I said it was a step down in difficulty, didn't even mention or suggest quality. You did.
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>>417308
>He points out that "expanding like this is punished" but that's just straight up wrong
No that's not wrong, in the beginning you will not have enough cash (unless you abuse private funds during the campaign), building too many houses will raise unemployment and thus unhappiness, the gods will become angry because there are not enough religious buildings, having to employ more people will also cost money.

>The kind of lazy approach he's using to tackle the scenario is something you can also do in the Impression city builders as far as I'm concerned.
To get to a stable city requires much more input.
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>>417349
>No that's not wrong
But it is, shitting out 3 housing blocks and all of its infra structure is perfectly doable in Zeus and Emperor. Please let's not start pretending these games are hard for cool contrarian points jesus.
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>>413668
>new game
>good
you're in the wrong timeline for that buddy
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>>417350
It's doable but it will put you onto a clock to solve a lot of requirements in the near future or you will run out of money.
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>>417353
Ps talking about pharaoh.
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>>417353
Not him, but either you never played Zeus or Emperor, or are genuinely retarded. Both of those games have "solved" housing blocks that can be made productive instantly and taxes can be imposed easily (especially in Zeus)
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>>417356
Point still stands. Once you have pottery and beer, the game is solved, too. So 98% of missions.
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>>417370
Which already is a much bigger challange you retard and no pressing fast forward in 98% of the maps and ignoring every event won't make the mission easier.
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>>417403
>Confusing me with some other anon and projecting hard
Wow, the quality of your argument...
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>>416386
Assyrians are nearly dead desu
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>>413734
>enjoyment destroyed because zero entrophy
lol, literally why easy mode is always bad.
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>>413668

Holy shit the people are so stretched out, they look like they're straight out of Irithyll.
>>
Mesoamerican history dumper here, I speak with people who are helping work on this

I don't into city builders too much, but if you have feedback or input let me know and I can pass it on, though you'd probably be better off speaking to the main dev diretly, who is https://twitter.com/PerspectiveGam6

>>416249
>>416382
>>416249
Explain this to me, as in upgrading your city past a certain point requires walls? If so then i'd also throw my hat in for changing this and would try to push for it, simply because walls in Mesoamerican cities are pretty rare to begin, something I know has been expressed to the dev to some extent

>>416385
>>416631
That's a different, much less historically authentic project. Thetre's actually TWO city builders being made with that name, one which is an isometric one like this, another which is a 3d one. Both don't look very promising, at least as far as I can tell and in terms of historical influences
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>>419409
Stay based my friend.
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>>417353
You mean like in the video where the guy tries to prove this by putting himself on a timer until he got trade? Just like in fucking Zeus and Emperor? These city builders have always been really easy puzzle games that anyone can instantly figure out, what makes them fun is being able to create some neat looking cities with a setting of your choosing, and their charming art style and campaigns sure helped deliver some immersion, but they've always been easy as shit unless you were a literal toddler when you first played them.
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>>419676
There is no fucking timer.
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>>419710
Neither is there one in the CB series unless you're a literal retard.
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so the Mesopotamia game is gonna be shit, anyone have any clue about the Pharaoh remake?
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>>420093
>anyone have any clue about the Pharaoh remake?

Blacked.
>>
I have absolutely zero knowledge about Mesoamerican, but aren't their cities just huts outside of the temples?
Wouldn't the city looks pretty bland?
>>
crumpets
>>
>>420093
Turns out Neb is actually a very solid game.

>>420498
>aren't their cities just huts outside of the temples
>I have absolutely zero knowledge about Mesoamerican
I couldn't have guessed that one without you saying it outright!
>>
>>419482
>mfw out of all people, de Soto and his moronic soldiers were the only white people to ever saw those cities still running and they did jack and shit to write even a word about it, too busy dying from dysentery and being chased by angry locals non-stop
Not sure which pisses me off more - this or de Landa burning all the Mayan codices, because "lmao, pagans", and doing that after spending his entire life collecting and studying them first.
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>>420498
>Just huts outside of temples.
You're probably thinking of SEAsia where a city like Angkor Watt was just one giant temple+palace and everything around it was simple wooden houses because the caste system didn't allow people to live in something fancier than their status allows.
Mesoamericans weren't like that. They had a decent amount of urban infrastructure to their cities and the game tries to reflect it. A city like Tenochtitlan (Aztec capital) was basically something you'd expect to see in ancient Babylon crossed with Venice, Teotihuacan (older than the Aztecs, but they incorporated it and lived there as well) was basically pure Mesopotamia with pyramids.

Mayans (more tropical and less centralised/unified than the Aztecs, Zapotecs and others from a little further inland and away from the Carribean shores) were closer to the SEAsian example in that they had a highly stratified society with actual nobility (to get ahead as an Aztec, all you needed was to win some slaves). They still had intricacy to their city core where said aristocracy lived and ceremonies were held but once you were past that, it was basically just lots of village units close together.
Mesoanon can surely do a better job explaining the mechanics behind it but it should suffice as a sort of TL;DR.
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>>420093
It's just regular Pharaoh, but with new graphics and few QoL changes. So naturally, soulfags are shitting their pants about it, because "muh soulerino!"
>>
>>419409
Hey there- dev for Tlatoani here. The best place to grab me is on twitter as mentioned, but to explain a little about the walls:

(1) I have it on reasonably good authority from other twitter-scholars I've been talking to that city walls did exist in mesoamerica, even if they mostly tended to fill in gaps between natural defences (rivers and rock outcrops, etc. I would argue that Tenochtitlan had a combination of natural defences that minimised the need for fortifications and a large military to back it up, for example.)

2. Wall-construction is not strictly *required* for housing evolution in Tlatoani. The higher tiers of housing require a certain level of perceived *safety* which requires either (A) walls, (B) being built far away from potential invasion-points, or (C) having a large enough military to deter rivals. So you do have options aside from building extensive fortifications. (I'm also hoping to alter the map-generation routines to make the 'supplemented natural defences' route more viable in future.)

With all that said, if the system really isn't working out for you, let me know on twitter and I'll think about adjusting the parameters and/or taking it out entirely or limiting the feature to dangerous maps. Cheers
>>
>>423287
Third party anon here, basically agree with both of you.
Yes, Mesoamericans did build walls... but they were also fairly rare and more often than not not permament.
>https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1coe7f/siege_warfare_in_precolombus_americas_how/c9ixz4h/
>http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/maya/Maya-fortifications.pdf
Of course, that doesn't fit too nicely with the established mechanics of these sorta city builders.

Anyway, you're Irish, aren't you? Go to bed, mate.
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>>423287
I don't mind the historical aspect of the walls.
I do mind the gameplay impact they have. And the non-wall options are either poorly coded or there is some bug (using the GitHub version) which means the only reliable way to go up is building walls.

Speaking about housing upgrades: there is gorillion of conditions to go just a notch up, with no spread to them. Is the reasoning again historical, or there is some gameplay aspect to it?
Another thing: the pre-requested leve of aesthetics is just insane. Either I'm missing something, or the game assumes I've got decorations on every single spot and continously increase the size of those, with aesthetical features going into massive sizes just to keep a small block going (or not demoting).

I have this weird feeling that all the gameplay issues as based on taking the "real history" path, rather than actual poor game design as such. The result is a cute game that plays like ass, since there is no in-game reasoning present why all the obtuse mechanics are in place and this gives the feeling of being obtuse for the sake of it.
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Sorry, sleepless night. I'll doze off after this.

>>423404
"I do mind the gameplay impact they have. And the non-wall options are either poorly coded or there is some bug (using the GitHub version) which means the only reliable way to go up is building walls."

The city here was built up to maximum housing levels on the "dangerous" Hueypochtlan map, using alpha build v0.5, which should be on github. Some walls were built, but they only enclosed a small portion of the settlement.

https://twitter.com/PerspectiveGam6/status/1362125170169757702

If you take a look at the danger-map overlay (under the military tab, screen attached) you should get a display of which areas of the map are perceived as relatively safe or dangerous, but I'm fairly sure that building enough barracks/fortresses/hunter-lodges and putting housing close to the map's centre should increase your citizens' feelings of safety.

"Speaking about housing upgrades: there is gorillion of conditions to go just a notch up, with no spread to them. Is the reasoning again historical, or there is some gameplay aspect to it?"

The pre-requisites for housing evolution are not dissimilar to what you'd find in the Impressions series (entertainment, health, nutrition, different goods, safety, etc.), but there are somewhat fewer tiers of housing. I guess that accounts for the lack of 'spread'? (I don't really have the time/budget to do a bajillion different housing variants, I guess is the main reason?)
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>>423404
"Another thing: the pre-requested leve of aesthetics is just insane. Either I'm missing something, or the game assumes I've got decorations on every single spot and continously increase the size of those, with aesthetical features going into massive sizes just to keep a small block going (or not demoting)."

The aesthetic requirements for common housing development are not extravagant (if you take a look at the attached image you can get an idea of how much space needs to be allocated to gardens, stelae, plazas, mosaics, etc.) Most amenity structures also have at least mildly positive ambience.

You might be tripping up over dirt roads, which have bad ambience? If you replace those with stone and build up gradually using gardeners+ gardens and other lower-tier structures like shrines and alcoves, you shouldn't have too much trouble. Forest and water is considered attractive as well, for what it's worth, though I think swamp is not.

(One thing I should definitely add is a version of the 'ambience' overlay that works off terrain, rather than structures, but I'll have to rewrite the sampling code under the hood for that to work, so that might be a release or two away. I guess having housing complain about specific sources of ugliness might help troubleshooting as well?)

At any rate I do appreciate the feedback- I guess this is all something the tutorial would have to cover!
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>>420498
>>423113
>>423116
I think >>420498 is vastly understating the complexity, but >>423116 is overstating the frequency of more European-Near eastern layouts in Mesoamerican cities, when most DID follow "radial" or "low density" layouts

Most Mesoamerican cities had a urban core of temples, palaces, noble homes, plazas, ball courts, and other communal, ceremonial, and civic infrastructure. Not 1-2 structures, but dozens or hundreds for medium to large cities, but this is still a smaller amount and inside a smaller area then a comparable Eurasian city.Around this you had a set of suburbs radiating out from this urban core, which had commoner residences (often organized into what's known as patio groups) interspersed with agricultural land, irrigation systems, smaller mini-core. etc. This extended out from the urban cover over a wider area vs a comparable European city, with these suburbs gradually decreasing in density the further out you went, often without a clear endpoint

Larger Maya cities in particular often had extremely large suburban sprawls, with the readily definable area hitting the dozens or even hundreds of square kilometres (even covering the the distance between it and other cities, forming megalopolises) Again, simply calling this "a few huts" is really underselling this: A significant amount of the jungle would have been landscaped, be it outright cleared or managed forests with cleared underbrush and used for agroforestry, with road networks, again, mini cores, water management systems, etc. Both for Mesoamerican suburbs in general and especially these, think less a few huts spread out in the wilderness and more like, well, modern suburbs, just with pre-modern infrastructure, aside from the rural fringes of the suburbs around a site

Pic related is a good example, which is Copan, a very large Maya city (Tikal and Calakmul still much bigger). Again, most large non-maya Meso. cities wouldn't have sprawls this expansive, but you get the idea

1/?
>>
>>423672
>>420498
>>423113
>>423116
cont:

Tenochtitlan and Teotihuacan which >>423116 mentions, are atypical

Teotihuacan (see pic) doesn't have ball courts, was organized around a central linear road. It's "urban core" as one would define it for other cities made up most of it's area, with a planned urban grid (another unusual trait, compared to the at least superficially "haphazard" layout of other Mesoamerican cities) of all stone and rich furnished structures (including hundreds of large villa compounds, which even many commoners lived in) covering 22 square kilometers, and then what would be the "suburban" area of more spread out villas, some more traditional, single to double room commoner residences/hamlets/huts, and agricultural land around that, but covering a smaller area, with the total site area being 37 square kilometers, where it's relatively easy to cut off where it's limits end

Pic related is actually misleading and makes the city seem much smaller then it really is, as what seem like "normal" sized structures are really large villa compounds with dozens of rooms and courtyards, as I noted even most commoners lived in these. The actual structures that would be "normal" commoner residences in other cities like >>423672 can only be seen here if you open the image full size and zoom way the fuck in around the outskirts and they're tiny 2-3 pixel wide dots

Tenochtitlan (see https://i.imgur.com/8U2ZWiP.jpg, note this isn't based on 1:1 surveys like the Teotihuacan map is, but is a based on some aztec/spanish maps of the city with speculation to fill the gaps in) revived many of Teotihuacan's unusual urban traits, such as the planned urban grid and general architectural style, among others, and likewise had a definable city limit, as a result of it being built on an island, though this island was expanded via chinampas, artificial islands with canals left between them used to make more land for urban growth or as hyper-efficient hydroponic farms

2/?
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>>423680
>>420498
>>423113
>>423116
cont:

So Tenochtitlan basically has what's a urban core in the center of the city with the ceremonial precinct and the surrounding palaces, noble homes, civic/adminstrative buildings, etc, and then your suburbs of the more agriculturally focused areas with more commoner residences around that, up till you hit the edge of where the chinampas reached. Though you could argue that, as Tenochtitlan was connected to other cities and towns around the lake by way of causeways and canoes, that it's one giant megalopolitan center like the maya megallopoli (the maps I linked undersells the density, see: https://i.imgur.com/d09bskt.png , note there was likely more small towns/villages directly adjacent to it too, just with no traces due to being under downtown mexico city today)

Another atypical Mesoamerican city layout, is Palenque, a large (but not giant or one of the very largest) Maya city. It was located on a steep hill, and there are a lot of natural springs and rivers in the area which represents flooding risks (in fact Palenque itself has one of the more impressive networked waterworks systems to manage those to recourse them through the city or under it underground and to direct them into agricultural canals, aeshetic displays, plumbing systems, etc), so basically the entire city is packed inside what would be the same area of a urban core for other large or at least very large Maya cities like Tikal and Calakmul, with both the monumental religious/civic archecture, and commoner residences (grouped together on acropol) packed tightly together, I guess in a more european-y way, in the one spot that's on relatively even ground and was suited for urban development, with very, very little housing and infanstructure around that that could be compared to suburbs of other Mesoamerican sites. (I think maybe there's evidence of some sort of agroforestry in one other spot nearby but I forget the specifics)

3/?
>>
Ok I going to check this, hopefully the guy complaining about having to build walls for his city is not the same nebuwatever sperg.
>>
>>423647
>>423653
I will try it without walls once I'm back from work, but I'd strongly suggest givin non-wall structures bigger impact on things. Walled settlement are cool on paper, terrible when you actually have to enforce them, and especially when you have to enforce them at certain point of development, so it clashes with your existing overlay or forces to plan waaay ahead with a single feature who's main purpose (right now) seems to be just taking piss of a player
>I don't really have the time/budget to do a bajillion different housing variants, I guess is the main reason?
I'm perfectly fine with this, in fact much more fine than when the answer would be something in tune of "This is the state of our research and thus no more tiers will be present", where gameplay is sacrificed for the white crow of "historical authenticity" (this never works well for games).
>The aesthetic requirements for common housing development are not extravagant
Compared with pretty much every other city builder I ever played, both "studio" and indie ones - yes, they are. The sole fact you must build any sort of desirability enhancements at all gives this vibe, further accented by the fact how many tiers the housing has vs. their requirements
>One thing I should definitely add is a version of the 'ambience' overlay that works off terrain
Would be immensely helpful

I get the fact that this is a small project and kinda-sorta passion one, but if one stumbles blindly through this game, it gives really, really bad impression. I've played all the other city builders and know a thing or two about Aztecs, so I at least have a broad idea what's going on, but I guarantee if you put layman to it, you're going to get even worse rap than the Czech duo working on Nebuchadnezzar, despite doing far better in-depth work than them. Turns out audiences really are fucking dumb and it's helpful to always account for that.
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>>424029
I'm one of the people defending Nebuchadnezzar since it was announced, so nope. But the wall thing in Tlatoani is really grating, especially if you end up with unsuitable map for it, turning the walls into a patchwork of tiny embankments just to cash in the "enclosed" modifier for your buildings. It's neither practical nor aesthetcial in such configuration, but you still have to do this for the sake of enclosed modifier.
Which, again, is the same issue Caesar 2 suffered from and was the most annoying aspects of it, since all it really did was inflating your spendings and being a boring puzzle to solve.
>>
>>423116
>>423672
>>423680
>>423688
Thank you so much for the explanation, this is pretty interesting. I'm looking forward to the game.
>>
>>424120

"I will try it without walls once I'm back from work, but I'd strongly suggest givin non-wall structures bigger impact on things. Walled settlement are cool on paper, terrible when you actually have to enforce them, and especially when you have to enforce them at certain point of development, so it clashes with your existing overlay or forces to plan waaay ahead with a single feature who's main purpose (right now) seems to be just taking piss of a player"

Well, in terms of practical justification I would point out that actual invasions *do* tend to come from the same areas rated as being at high risk of invasion, so... these are not generally portions of the map where it's wise to build housing.

I'm afraid that being obliged to plan ahead for optimal development is to some extent one of the design objectives for Tlatoani (irrigation, aqueducts and cisterns impose similar constraints), so if this annoys you greatly you might find other titles more to your liking?

"Compared with pretty much every other city builder I ever played, both "studio" and indie ones - yes, they are. The sole fact you must build any sort of desirability enhancements at all gives this vibe..."

...To my knowledge, every Impressions citybuilder up to at least Emperor has required aesthetic buildings for housing development. Certainly things like Grand Insulae and villas/palaces required gardens, statues and plazas.

"I guarantee if you put layman to it, you're going to get even worse rap than the Czech duo working on Nebuchadnezzar, despite doing far better in-depth work than them. Turns out audiences really are fucking dumb and it's helpful to always account for that."

Okay, point taken.
>>
>>424125

"But the wall thing in Tlatoani is really grating, especially if you end up with unsuitable map for it, turning the walls into a patchwork of tiny embankments just to cash in the "enclosed" modifier for your buildings"

With all due respect, while I'm willing to consider adjusting parameters or switching off the feature entirely based on feedback, I do want that feedback to be based on informed and extensive actual play, not just theory-crafting. Do you have some screenshots of large, otherwise well-developed cities you built that were especially stymied by invasion-risk?

If it's the case that the lack of a tutorial makes the game too complex/obtuse to get a handle on more generally so you haven't gotten to that point... well, okay, my bad. I can agree the game needs more of a tutorial. But that's a separate issue.
>>
>>424248
The walls aren't really good at stopping the invasions, hence why I find them a gimmick. You need to fight them off, rather than hope your walls will stop them. This is why walls were always useless in city-builders - you army was doing simply far better job, while walls were simply smashed down.
>irrigation, aqueducts and cisterns impose similar constraints
They do provide actual, tangible "goods" to your population, instea of "now you reached the tier where you require walls"
Walls aren't fun. That's it
>To my knowledge, every Impressions citybuilder up to at least Emperor has required aesthetic
Yes and no. The low tier buildings had negative impact on desirability, but in the same time didn't require particularly good one themselves, so they could evolve without any outside help and thus remove their own negativei mpact, which further added to the positive value of the land. It's about the early mid-tier housing where negative impact of other building started to be a problem, but could be easily allevated by local placement of something small. Or just plazas (which game replaces with dirt/stone roads, which is fine, if poorly explained in-game). Here, even if I build a temple (or shrine, really) to get both religious access and desirability up, it only covers a very, very small fraction of the housing, so the end result is the fact I need to spread the aesthetic features in all directions, or outright game it by leaving empty plots for gardens in the design. Not a big fan of that, since rather than "let's build pleasant city", it ends up being "let's game the numbers". It's the general clash of what you are achieving (single notch up in development) vs the amount of enhancements that has to be build, each and every tier. And I'm just talking aesthetics here, not the city infrastructure as such. Either cut down the negative values of buildings or decrease the positive value needed for growth, because right now, third of the city has to be a garden
>>
>>424250
I'm talking about situation where there are sufficient swamps/lakes around that the actual amount of needed walls is meaningless, because majority of defense is from natural features. If I will roll map like that, I will most definitely provide a screen of that.
>>
>>424248
>>424250
I've just realise something.
Why not having a Pharaoh-like counters? They were crude, but they did help to get around things. You have population of n. Each X of population "requires" a building of specific type. Counted properly, you have the right amount of forts, barracks and lodges, you have security covered by those, without walls.
If it's already in game, then it should be more "visible" to a player. If it's not, then I find it superior solution to "just wall it, bro".
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>>413668
Can someone post link? I can't find anything about this
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>>424317
https://github.com/Perspective-Games/Tlatoani_Releases

Have you tried using google at all?
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>>424260

I agree that a good offence is usually the best defence, but walls were definitely useful in the Impressions series. (If they're not, I can always make them stronger. :) )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzrt4IMb2D8&t=26m15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8HNbzoqbpI

"Not a big fan of that, since rather than "let's build pleasant city", it ends up being "let's game the numbers"."

Again... 'gaming the numbers' is, to some extent going to be required for optimal play. But... honestly, friend, I can guarantee that a third of your city does not need to be a garden.

https://twitter.com/PerspectiveGam6/status/1362126280980910080


>>424264

"I'm talking about situation where there are sufficient swamps/lakes around that the actual amount of needed walls is meaningless, because majority of defense is from natural features. If I will roll map like that, I will most definitely provide a screen of that."

It's unlikely this will happen with the current public release (terrain generation is set to either 'coastal' for Xochimilco or 'oasis' for Hueypochtlan, neither of which provides an abundance of natural defences.) But that should change in later updates.

As of now, if you play on the Xochimilco map the ambient danger-level is so low that it's unlikely to affect housing-development either way.
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>>424278

"Why not having a Pharaoh-like counters? They were crude, but they did help to get around things. You have population of n. Each X of population "requires" a building of specific type. Counted properly, you have the right amount of forts, barracks and lodges, you have security covered by those, without walls.
If it's already in game, then it should be more "visible" to a player. If it's not, then I find it superior solution to "just wall it, bro"."

To some extent, this feature is present- building forts/barracks/lodges increases your settlement's 'Might' rating, which in turn affects perceived safety from invasion. But I agree this should be more visible to the player.
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>>424327
This information should definitely be more accessible from player's perspetive, would solved so many things.
I wonder how much of my harsh approach to this game is due to it being still an early build without any sort of tutorial or guide to it, so I have to stumble on things via trial and error and thus it's more frustrating to me than it actually is.
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>>424278
You need x per y people doesn't reward efficient design, I like coverage mechanics more.
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>>424340
My point is about strictly making it security-related, not going full retard on X per Y (because that's another Caesar 2 shitty design). So you need to have a fort per X population for them to feel safe and in that context it makes sense, at least as far of providing them with feeling of safety. Kind of how real garrison works - you might feel safe with 100 soldiers defending your frontier town of 500, but when you have 100 soldiers to defend a city of half a mil, and they do double-duty as police, too, that's hardly reassuring in case of invasion.
It doesn't when you need some trivial building per every dozen of citizens, because that's what coverage is for.
Is it more clear now?
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>>423672
>>423680
>>423688
Hey /his/ mesoanon, nice to see you here
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>>424340
>>424361
The Sentry Post partly fulfils this function (it patrols around housing and bumps up their 'Security' rating, which in turn feeds into perceived safety from invasion). Military structures such as forts and barracks don't at the moment, but that might change in future releases.
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>>424338
"I wonder how much of my harsh approach to this game is due to it being still an early build without any sort of tutorial or guide to it, so I have to stumble on things via trial and error and thus it's more frustrating to me than it actually is."

Well, I guess we'll find out once the tutorial is out. :) Much of the UI needs to be overhauled more generally, so yeah, I agree it needs attention.
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>>424379
>>424386
So as for now, my main point is: more clear informations, walls are unfun, let's see how things develop.
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>>424386
Any plans for a discord server?
>>
I like how the nigger making these games is brave enough to stop by and get feedback here. Mesoamerica really is an untapped market in citybuilders, alongside ancient india.

I don't know much about the coding and stuff, but I do notice the art. While the city itself and the buildings look fantastic, the people look really tall and stretched out, like aliens. Are there plans to better proportion them? Also, can you click on people to get their thoughts on the city like in pharaoh, or are they just silent like in nebuchadnezzar?
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>>424594

None at present, though once I have a tutorial ready I might try broadening my media footprint (such as it is.)

>>424933

India was the other setting I considered, actually. As for the sprites: I'm planning to get the citizens properly animated down the road as well as record feedback voicelines, but that's gonna have to wait on a kickstarter to cover the costs.

For now you can get just basic info about citizens like their hunger, fatigue, employment/residence, etc. I might add little text-quotes to tell you their thoughts, but that's gonna be a few releases down the road.
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>>423116
>because the caste system didn't allow people to live in something fancier than their status allows
Thai here, just want to point out that caste system had nothing to do with that because most of SEA were Buddhist or at the very least were syncretized with Buddhism. It's just a matter of practicality as lumber was easier to obtain and could be as ornate as stone carvings, even the palaces for kings incorporate wood into the architecture. Though they don't last long due to the rainforest climate.
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>>423688
>>420498
>>423113
>>423116
cont

Also I guess i'm shooting myself in the foot since I said >>423116 was overstating atypical layouts vs typical urban core, suburban radial spread layout Mesoamerican cities did have, and then I spend 2 of my 3 posts talking about exceptions too

For contrast, here's a small, rural Aztec (in a loose sense) town called Cuexcomate. You can see this obviously much smaller then the other cities and towns posted so far, but it follows the trends I outline in >>423672, though it's so small it's almost hard to distinguish between the core and the suburbs/commoner residences. That would be more clear for larger Aztec cities, even the ones which arent Tenochtitlan, though, again, even for large non-Tenochtitlan "Aztec" cities like Texcoco, Cholula, Tlaxcala, etc, as far as I know their suburbs didn't get as expansive as Maya ones

There's some elements of Mesoamerican urbanism I didn't get into here, such as how key structures in urban cores tend to be laid out and aligned, which has cosmological symbolism, among other things, but if you wanna look into the topic then Micheal Smith is an expert on Mesoamerican urbanism and has put out a lot of research and writups, a lot of which can be found online for free

Also I wanna stress here that stuff like pyramids, palaces, ball courts, noble homes, (or even most comoner homes, as in the case of Teotihuacan per what I noted about most commoners living in villa compounds, the image in >>423116 depicts the West Plaza residential complex. The exact murals shown there aren't accurate to that specific complex, but said murals and accents are all Teotihuacano style motifs) were, aside from rural, poor towns, richly furnished and decorated: Smooth stucco would have covered the underlying masonry (which itself had a more haphazard innerfill & then a finer layer of brickwork over that), with painted frescos and murals, engraved reliefs or fine fretwork, at times large sculptural facades, etc

4/?
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>>424594

None at present, though once I have a tutorial ready I might try broadening my media footprint (such as it is.)

>>424933

India was the other setting I considered, actually. As for the sprites: I'm planning to get the citizens properly animated down the road as well as record feedback voicelines, but that's gonna have to wait on a kickstarter to cover the costs.

For now you can get just basic info about citizens like their hunger, fatigue, employment/residence, etc. I might add little text-quotes to tell you their thoughts, but that's gonna be a few releases down the road.
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>>425368
>I'm planning to get the citizens properly animated
Please make them a little shorter and stockier.
>>
Whoops- I seem to have double-posted. New replies weren't appearing for me.

>>425434

Don't worry, I'll get the proportions sorted. All the current sprites are just placeholders, is my point.
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>>425437
may i ask where are you from?
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>>425407
cont:

>>423287
>>423404
>>423647
>>424120
>>424029
>>424248
Thanks for the reply, and glad you're checking the threads out.

As far as the wall issue, I don't really have a ton of in depth historical input to give on that at the moment like I just did for urban layout, since I know that that's a topic that you and the person we both speak with intends to discuss anyways, and both he and I need to check the game itself proper out more for gameplay input (especially since both of us have limited experience with city builders), and do some more reading to be 200% confident on the historical input... so it's something the 3 of us (well, you and him, and me through him) will talk more about later on anyways.

I will say my understanding basically matches what >>423311 says. Again, though, the 3 of us can get into the specifics of this and you can determine if it warrants a change in the game at a later time.

I should note that there is evidence of palisades being decently common throughout the suburban sprawls of some Maya cities, and the Maya in general did seem to make higher use of Palisades and walls then other Mesoamerican groups. This was originally thought to be mostly the result of increasing militarization during the Late Classical period and during the Classical collapse, but more and more research suggests that they (and total warfare with cities being razed) was a thing prior to then too, though I'm not sure if the current consensus is that it was AS common in the early as mid classic as the late classic, or if the degree of difference is merely smaller then previously thought...

...though that doesn't have a ton of relevance on the issue of wall mechanics as the player interacts with them in Tlatoani, since it's Aztec themed.

5/5 for now
>>
>>413688
it's alright. Managing buildings collapsing, fires and religion is out so the difficulty is bumped down quite a lot but it has improvements on the routes distrubution systems. no free play though

also just pirate it. there's a torrent out for the GoG version already
>>
just dropping in to say how much i really like the aesthetics overall. definately reminds me of some flat coloured franco-belgian comics that i've enjoyed and it really pleasing to look at. hope the whole thing gets animated and done at a higher resolution in the future
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>>425437
>>425432

Good to hear. Small graphic things can really make the difference.
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>>423680
>>423688
>>425407
keep doing gods work based mesohistorian
>>
Can't take screenshots, only get black.

Maybe more traders per stockpile or decuple them? They are a extreme bottleneck even with a 3 months route, so I build them all on the map border.
>>
Is there a human sacrifice mechanic?
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>>413668
It looks nice other than the huge character sprites, those are a real shame.
>>
So you can't realy build a noble farm like in the impression games, you need jobs for them.
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>>426149
I've heard of problems with screenshots on windows, but apparently adding the game on steam allows it? Not sure what the cause is.

On a 3-month route it's unlikely that more than one trading post will be required for a moderate volume of goods, even if the post is some distance from the map border (you can check the total volume of goods traded on the empire map.) If you're trading a really large volume or over longer distances you might need more trading posts, but that's an intentional limitation.
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>>425442
You can ask, but if you scroll up the thread I think it's been answered.

>>426303
Human sacrifice is on the to-do list, along with a little more attention to military functions in general (the latest version should theoretically allow you to conquer rival cities but you won't get any captives in the process, which was the main source of sacrifices.)

>>426792
Correct. Nobles do actually contribute to the elite workforce in Tlatoani (but also directly consume labour in the form of servants), so they won't move in if there are no suitable 'job openings'.
>>
>>424933
(I've actually dealt with much nastier forums, for what it's worth. Try arguing with objectivists on usenet.)

>>425496
Thanks! I think it's called ligne claire, though I wasn't consciously aware of imitating it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_claire
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>>426826
>Human sacrifice is on the to-do list
So you're planning to merge the vicious and famously needy gods of Impression games' with human sacrifice? That's gonna turn really, really bloody.
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>>426826
So what's the war in the game will be like? Is it just a matter of sending bigger number and RNG or can the player control the battlefield directly? Also is there going to be some sort of Spanish incursion in the game?
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>>426901
playing it right now you can set gathering points but the units act very autonomous.
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>>426839

...Well, it's not like it's out of character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxWuH1YxNlQ&t=1m20s

>>426901
>>426913

Pretty much. The military functions are still very much work-in-progress, so you can expect the control system to go through a few more revisions yet. But my objective would broadly speaking be that you give units a few core objectives in advance and don't need to micro too much.
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>>426901
"Also is there going to be some sort of Spanish incursion in the game?"

Oh- that and Christianity/european influence still a very experimental/tentative idea I've been toying with. I won't say definitely no, but that's going to be many releases away at minimum.
>>
>>426960
>>426968
I see. I'm impartial to both approach, just merely curious. Anyway, just make the game at your own pace, man. Don't feel imposed by promises or demands. Make the game that you yourself would enjoy and proud of.
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>>426901

I did a general run-down on the intended roadmap for future development here, for what it's worth.

https://twitter.com/PerspectiveGam6/status/1360740655832715264/photo/2
>>
you're doing a great work man, and the fact that you are doing all this, being an extranjero shocks be even more. Xiyolpaki, iknoyouani
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>>416385
different game
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>>413668
Art doesn't look good at all desu. If they fix how flat everything looks then it will probably be decent at least.
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>>429845
the flatness is fine, gives it a lineart feet.

it's the horrible human models they need to fix.
>>
>>429845
>>429854
>they
>One guy project
Let me guess - you gonna bitch about lack of soul as the biggest issue you can possibly have with a game, rigth?
>>
>>429858
i work one-man projects too. the walkers are still ugly m8. they should fix that.
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>>429877
>Continues to use plural
Are you retarded, or just trying too hard?
>>
>>429845
Art does look good, except for te human models, I agree with that
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>>429988
Maybe they are just respectful
>>
>>430619
... by adressing the single guy who works on this with plural? How's that anything else, but being retarded?
>>
>>430755
You don't know their gender
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>>429988
>>430755
>plural
Singular they has been in use for over a century, anon. That's not the twitter brigade in action, that's just the english language. Calm down, son.
>>
>>430762
Yes you do

>>430783
Why are you using an idiotic plural, when you are facing a guy? It's a known fact that you are adressing a guy and a single one at that, why then doing retarded shit?
>twitter brigade
What?
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>>430812
>Singular they has been in use for over a century, anon.
>>
>>430829
He has never heard of linguistics and probably thinks language is devolving
>>
>Anon points out this is a single person dev
>Idiots chimp out about pronouns
>Still missing the point it's just one person making the game, not a studio or group of friends
>>
>>430848
>Idiots chimp out about pronouns
No u.
>>
>>427286
>>429854
>>429858

I think I already covered the topic of the walker-sprites, but regarding the art style more generally-

The sprites I came up with were originally intended purely as a stylised placeholder for full 3D modelling of both buildings and citizens down the road, but I've gotten a fair amount of positive feedback on the art style for the buildings as-is, so... even in the event I ran a hugely successful kickstarter and got the money to pay for everything to be re-done, I would be in two minds about it.


>>427011

Sure, will do.

The next public release should include a basic-to-intermediate tutorial, by the way- I've got the basic version finished and the intermediate should be fleshed out over the next few days.

https://twitter.com/PerspectiveGam6/status/1363540472665415680

>>427286

Thanks dude! I appreciate it.

(The 'dude' is gender neutral, in case I'm jumping to unwarranted conclusions.)
>>
bump
>>
Gates are blocking building range one way, you can go outside but not inside.
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>>434698
That sounds very unusual. Could you upload the save somewhere and let me know which version and I'll take a look?
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>>434821
On a narrower look it's storage buildings wich I had inside that can go both ways, but anything else (like my farm house) cannot pass the gate (again both ways). Is this intended?
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>>434838
>>
>>434840

Ah, yes, that's more-or-less as intended. Most structures will not extend their service-check through a gatehouse, but granaries, markets, trading posts and porter yards will.

So the granary there *should* be able to pick up maize/fruit from the farm sheds, but the sheds themselves will not be able to make active deliveries to the granary. I might change that if it looks like the granary-workers are getting too busy, though?
>>
>>434840
(I will just remark that employees going to work in the fields or other 'destination walkers' should be able to get there just fine- it's just the service-access checks that are affected.)
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>>434840
One other strange thing, now that I notice it- you seem to have a cistern filled up without any direct connection to the freshwater springs in the south? That shouldn't be possible, last time I checked.
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>>434856
I am on 0.5, I assumed from playing that everything connected the river counts as freshwater.
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>>434864
Interesting. That really does look like a bug in that case. Good catch!

It looks like your sawyers and stone quarries might be a bit too distant from the masons and furnisher, unless you have those intermediate porter yards set to accept raw materials? There might be a little spit of water making the un-built kiln inaccessible as well, but I'm not sure.

(Getting soil from the sweepers out to more distant farms is something of an unsolved problem as well, but it shouldn't make too drastic a difference for now.)
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>>434872
Yeah I have storage
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>>434879
Okay, cool. Well, just let me know if the granary-transport there turns out to be a bottleneck and I'll see if I can patch that in the next release.
>>
Well if the farmer farms instead of delivering goods then there might be no difference in the end on the whole. It was just a small pitfall for me as I assumed coming from Pharaoh that stockpiles don't catch goods on their own from producers.
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>>434923
to add on I would gladly build more stockpiles to make the farmer work harder.
>>
Is this out already or is there a demo somewhere? looks sexy
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>>436797
it's a work in progress. Very cool that the dev is posting here.
You can grab the game on git https://github.com/Perspective-Games/Tlatoani_Releases/releases
>>
>>434923
>>434946
I appreciate that, but I do want the system to be as intuitive as possible for novice players.

>>436797
>>436812
That's the one. If you wait a couple of days I should have a public build that includes a basic-to-intermediate tutorial over the weekend.
>>
>>437156
>>436812
does this build have infinite money? I just kept building shit and it seems to go negative without real problems
>>
>>437999

Yeah, there are no specific consequences to debt at the moment (I didn't think it would be fair to impose that on players until I had the other mechanics ironed out.) I'll probably be introducing some debt-penalties in the release after next.

Just imagine that no wages are being paid and all your citizens are getting really pissed off and leaving the city, if that helps. :P
>>
It's pretty good to see that there are developers who are willing to do their own thing and create a historical game about a culture that's pretty regularly avoided or at least given reduced attention compared to the standard games about ancient egypt/rome/greece/china or medieval europe/vikings. I understand that most people from Europe and the US feel more connection to those settings/periods and I do as well, to a point, but there so much rich history and culture in the Pre Columbian Americas. It would be a shame to miss out.

I can only cross my fingers for an Incan city builder at some point in the future.

I'd imagine that either the mountain environments would probable piss players off with the lack of space if you tried to simulate Machu Picchu like communities or confused people if you went for a Cusco style city as most people don't have a clue about Incan cities other than Machu Picchu.

>>438143
Any suggestions for someone looking to start the journey of developing their own unique city builder/simulation game? Is it all just art and programming? Or can you contract out one and do your passion on the other?

Keep up the good work! It's got issues and gaps rn but it's been great to watch you develop it. One day it'll be a classic.





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