>strategy game>swords beat spears
>spear beat cavalry>cavalry beat sword>ergo sword has to beat spear because rock, paper, scissors
>cavalry beats wooden siege engines
>horse archers>can be beaten
>>257679>his game is a rps rts and not a turn based grand strategy where the fighting is in localized real time
>>257679Zweihanders were used historically to disrupt pike formations
>Battleships can't attack air units>Jet fighters can shoot at attack helicopters but not ground units>The only advantage footsoldiers have over tanks is that they're cheaper
>>258011>turn based>strategypick one
>>258293lol this can't be a real take
>>257679>archers can destroy stone walls
>>258248>>258262i bet you smug fags love katanas toopike != spear
>lasers get blocked by shields>missiles don't
>>257679>rock, paper, scissors balancing>strategyfuck u CA
>>258291Red Alert 3?
>>258008>horse archer unit >never runs out of arrows
>>259064Tell that to Crassus.
>>259064that would only work for rpgs tho
>>258008This would be more historically accurate for sure.
>>257679Juvenile fantasy where swords are somehow good, despite all evidences of the contrary.
>>258008haha stone castles go brrrrrrr
>rockets and grenades do less damage to infantry than machine gunsI love the C&C series but this never made sense to me in a non-videogame context
>>259161Imagine they drop on the ground, or every projectile is anti armour only.
>>258293nice troll, someone will take the bait
>>258642they block the missiles they just don't block the shockwave from those missiles
>>258293TBS are the only games with strategy>I hit the unit count and swarmed my enemy, I'M A TACTICAL GENIUS
>>260183Any method of projecting the energy shield beyond the hull surface of the ship would mitigate that, vaguely analogous to how spaced armour works. There's no air or water to carry the pressure waves, since the density of space particles is far lower. Whatever methods of shielding they use are adequate for collisions in FTL travel, so why don't they work on slower but larger projectiles?
>>260223oh you meant ship combat, I was thinking ground combat well for that it depends on what you put into the missiles (I'm thinking nukes)
>>260183Anon, even on ground combat shockwave isnt really effective against armor, you need piercing component.
>Civ bonuses>Le turk gun power.
>>258438Spearfags are militias levied from peasantsSwordsmen are pro soldiersThink of it like that>>259173Flanking has been around for millenia
>>260429What’s the problem with that?
>>258008>horse archersYes, they can be beaten.
>>260194>I rotate my units to always have a fresh one I AM SMART>I have a doomstack FUCK YOU NAPOLEON
>>260753https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto>An advantage for the Christians was the numerical superiority in guns and cannon aboard their ships, as well as the superior quality of the Spanish infantry. It is estimated that the Christians had 1,815 guns, while the Turks had only 750 with insufficient ammunition. The Christians embarked with their much improved arquebusier and musketeer forces, while the Ottomans trusted in their greatly feared composite bowmen.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orban>, was an iron founder and engineer from Brassó, Transylvania, in the Kingdom of Hungary >He had initially offered his services to the Byzantines in 1452, one year before the Ottomans attacked the city, but the Byzantine emperor Constantine XI could not afford Orban's high salary nor did the Byzantines possess the materials necessary for constructing such a large siege cannon. Orban then left Constantinople and approached the Ottoman sultan Mehmed II, who was preparing to besiege the city. Claiming that his weapon could blast 'the walls of Babylon itself', Orban was given abundant funds and materials by the sultan. Orban managed to build the giant size gun within three months at Adrianople, from which it was dragged by sixty oxen to Constantinople. In the meantime, Orban also produced other smaller cannons used by the Turkish siege forces.
>>260843>Cherry picking.Turkish army has always been famous for the gunpower and cannons.
>>260921These are just things that got into my eye while reading about history, you a free to give counterexamples.
>>260954THEIR ARROWS WILL DARKEN THE SKY!Then we'll fight in the shade.
>>257679>naval and ground units fighting on the same map>snipers outrange battleships>heavy tank is more durable than a destroyer.>partisans can attack submarines because they have stealth detection.
>>258438It's ironic that you bring up katanas, considering you spear niggers are the only autists more annoying and illinformed than katana weebs.
>>261040Spotted the weeb.
>>261040>Swordcuck talking about beeing illinformed.
>>261043That's the best you got? Lurk a little longer before you start acting retarded for attention.>>261045I wonder why roman legions switched from spears to swords, considering how much more expensive it was, especialpy since they were made out of bronze?
>>260924You should read about 1453, or the janissaries.
>>261054Seething weeb. Don't worry, l'm sure katanas are "fair" in your rebalance mod.
>>261065>get's btfo so hard he has to make up a fiction where I like katanaslmao just stop replying if you can't think of a good argument. You don't have to worry about protecting your account from downvotes now that you're here.
>>261070>strawmanningI accept your surrender out of pity.
>>261077What is it with you reddit niggers and projecting what you're doing on others?
>>261054>Romans>Swords made of bronzeAnon, I...
>>261078I dunno, you tell us.
>strategy game>doesn't lazily slap on conditional stat bonuses and/or penalties to make units do well against things they're '''supposed''' to beat by some half baked logic from people who have never even touched these weapons>actually models and balances units with a variety of different strengths and weaknesses to make units thrive when used properly and suffer when not, and rely on logical and modelled strengths of the men, equipment and formations rather than tired, dubious stereotypes to determine who an engagement favours and to what degree in whatever time, place and situationDo any of these exist? I guess total war is probably as close as anyone will get.
>>261283I guess hardcore wargames do this, but then you probably want it to look good too
>>261054The Romans primary weapon was the pilum they would never use the short sword over the pilum.
>>261419The pilum is a javelin. It's meant to be thrown and impede the enemy, it isn't meant to wound.
Why do spearfags always come off like they have in inferiority complex?>Swords are cool>B-but spears are better and more practical!>I like warhammers>B-but spears are better and more practical!>I want to stab people with a knife>B-but spears are better and more practical!They're like tankfags in mecha threads.
>>261520Why are you seething so much, weeb?
>>261520Bowfags are worse imho.
>>261060>1453You mean when the Ottoman cannons failed to breach the walls of Constantinople, and only succeeded in taking the city after a gate was left open?
>>261283That's only early total war games, though. And there are still conditional bonuses for cases like spears vs. cavalry.>>261419Pila were only used prior to charges, which was the case with most throwing weapons. In fact, they were more useless in melee than throwing spears used by others (such as the Gauls). The Romans relied primarily on the gladius in a tight formation.
>>261419Pilum are like the grenades you throw in before engaging
>>258438>i bet you smug fags love katanas tooDo you have any idea how long a pike is? They're fucking long m8, they're so long that its impossible to swing with them in a pike lock. The dopplesoldner kept zweihanders at their flanks specifically for the specialized role to both flank pike formations in a pike lock and to protect their own formation from getting flanked by the same or similar tactic.
>>261712>medieval troops with a universal weapon loadout
>>261750Cont.To clarify so you don't get any stupid ideas, no the zweihander wielding dopplesoldner did not charge the flank by themselves. Pike-men would be directly behind them as they would lead. They would stay directly in front of their own pike-men as they moved in together because the pike-men behind them would protect them from the enemy pike-men until they could break the range gap reliably. Once they broke through the range gap they were pretty much free to start kicking ass.Why a zweihander? Most likely because they had long enough reach to protect themselves from pike-men deeper in the formation who could still try and attack them.Don't get me wrong though, the dopplesoldner are basically those crazies who specialized in an unpopular role that everyone hated and thought they were mad lads for volunteering to do it. The zweihanders were for a specific role in their anti-pike tool box, the standard method they loved using more often was to bait and switch other pole-arms from the back after the pike-men engaged in the push and pull of a pike lock. So the enemy pike-men now had to deal with a pole axes or pole hammers swinging down hard on to their heads which was hidden in the back of the formation being shuffled to the front.
>>261649Haven't seen bowfags as much, and they're usually shut down by guns and cannons, though cannons usually shut down most things
Laugh in halberds.
>>261900>Haven't seen bowfagsI bet there are some of them right here...
>>262619Ughhh CrecyUghh AgincourtNow that’s battles.
>>261702that sounds like the kind of thing a butthurt byzaboo would make up after the fact to cope
>>262875One thing you have ot give to Byzboys, at least their last emperor died with sword in hand and not shaking in fear like Romulus Augustus
>>261649The problem of bowfags is that they are lead by mentally retarded angloBows are actually strong weapons, everyone can carry and fire from one and archer cavalry was literally opThen there is the longbow, which was basically useless
>>258412>rock throwing beats future tank
>>262890You're supposed to say bows are shit and crossbows are ace to get on Anglo tits.And if they bring up Agincourt or any other battles, bring up who eventually won the 100 years war and try not to let anyone think Medieval wars are about not dying to attrition/disease, lines of inheritance, marriage alliances, sound castle engineering, logistics and generally not being retarded.
Shields > spears or swords.Shields allow you to largely ignore whatever weapon your enemy has because it won't be hitting you. The romans knew this, and realized the best way to counter enemies who used shields against them was to disable them with heavy thrown spears (pilum). Without shields the enemy could be pelted by missiles or simply carved up by swords, and all the while they'd be clashing against your own shield wall, which they were probably unable to disable in the same way because they didn't have the specialized tools nor the disciplined tactics to pull it off. Fighting a disciplined shield wall is disheartening. The enemy advances on you, and you can't push them back. Your attacks are mitigated to almost nothing, and they can patiently wait for the moment to attack you from safety. They don't have to outfight you as better warriors, they don't have to take risks, they just have to hold against your charge, and steadily push your forces until people lose the will to continue and the rout starts. That's when the formation finally drops, and it turns into slaughter.
>>262663What about the Battle of Patay? How come no one ever brings that one up?
>>262997Because the French won
>>262877Romulus didn’t die in fear. He got a fat pension and exile in Campania.
>>262957Just wear armor, lmaoImagine not having two hands free
>>262619>traps aren't gayI agree.
>>262957Halberds can hook that shield out of your arm, ot at least throw you off balance
>>257679Can't make spears beat everything anon.
>elephant units don't destroy everything they meet
>>260966That's the Achaemenids and the Spartens you ding-dong
Everyone knows that the greatest weapon is the human mind. With sufficient intellect, and weapon can be used to devastating effect in a variety of situations.>>262957It depends on the technology level. In the classical era and most of the medieval period, armor wasn't sophisticated enough to provide solid protection on its own, so shields were necessary to provide an extra layer of protection.Once armor got sufficiently developed (and gunpowder began to becom widespread), shields basically fell out of practice and more offensive tools like polaxes, greatswords, and pikes proliferated.>>263336Elephants were pretty useless for war, though. Their main value was as specialized shock troops, mainly for morale disruption. Most militaries could trivialize war elephants if they've encountered them before.
>>262912Shouldn't have outsourced armor production to china.
>>261283Hearts of Iron
>>260924> The Ottomans deployed the largest field artillery of the era, comprising some 300 cannons, while the Hungarians had only 85 cannons, though even this number was greater than other contemporary Western European armies deployed on the battlefields during the major conflicts of Western European powers.
>>263520>See also>The Ottomans: Europe's Muslim EmperorsBBC does it again.
>>262890>everyone can carry and fire from onethe main problem with bows was how much training a bowman would need to be proficentthats probably the main reason they were outsourced for guns
>>262957pike men would like to have a word with u
>>263546The gun kinda wins in most scenario. A good musketeer also takes a long time or train. Then in battle a unit of well trained gunners will beat well trained archers.On the other end of the spectrum a poor gunner will still beat a poor archer. A unit of poorly trained gunners can lose to a unit of well trained archers.
>>261060That was literally one his his examples, how their cannons for the 1463 siege of Constantinople were built by a foreigner
>>262957>That's when the formation finally dropsShield wall formations that break get routed. the reason is because shield walls are meant to stop a mob which will constantly push against the shield wall. That is why the Romans specifically drilled their soldiers who would fight in shield formations to never break their formations. They were also trained to have everyone in the formation push against the mob in unison, shuffle their men around for prolonged battles for fatigue, used gladiuses in the left hand to not get in the way of spear users behind them.Interesting trivia, the gladius cannot do forward thrusts. Your grip in the hand locks your wrist so you can only do angular stabbing and thrusting motions so you essentially had to stab from a downwards angle and can only hurt someone directly in front of the tower shield.
It's funny watching incels who have never even been in a fight talking how medieval weapons were used.
>>263735Holy shit a time traveller from the olden times!We need your knowledge to help us. First hints first if you’re from antiquity: how big were Cleopatra’s boobies?
>>263735Whatever you say, normalnigger.
>>263735tell me about how getting beaten up by your bullies gave you knowledge about medieval weapons
>>257679yes give a single real life fencing tactic where sword doesn't beat spear?
>>263780>fencing>in mass combatI bet you also believe that battles are just many little duels at same time
>>263850and I bet you believe spears actually beat swords outside of a shieldwall
>>263867>moving the goalpostsWe accept your surrender.
>>263867yeah, like in pike formation?
>>263867you tell ushttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8RWLxlzTiM&ab_channel=HEMAInstructorNickThomas
>>259156>Walks around your castleOh, did I ruin something?
>>263563>how their cannons for the 1463 siege of Constantinople were built by a foreignerAnd used by Ottos, so it's all the same.
>>262942Nice castle you got there. I hope nobody...sends their cavalryman through to sack the villages anyway.
>>263560>1 round per minute>30-60 rounds per minuteHmmm...
>>263917>like in pike formation?pike =/= spear
>>264096>>263560both of you are wrong and talk about meaningless numbersin battle with muskets vs bows the decisive factor (as with other means too) is proper maneuvering and morale of the troops
>>264078It's really not, most games try to capture something essential about these nations. They wouldn't represent Rome with auxilias, since while those were used by them, by all means they were foreign. Same goes for ottoman gunpowder.
>>264136>Number of rounds fired per minute>meaningless numbers>in battle with muskets vs bows the decisive factor (as with other means too) is proper maneuvering and morale of the troopsWhich largely comes down to your ability to kill the other guys.>>264156>It's really not, most games try to capture something essential about these nations. They wouldn't represent Rome with auxilias, since while those were used by them, by all means they were foreign.You make them available, then expensive. If your nations was importing something and able to outfit its troops with it, it's the same as it being produced locally, unless you want to get into the topic of mercantilism.
>>262912some of the death sounds were so good>HOOOOAAAALLGHGHBHGH
>X IS BETTER THAN YYou're all a bunch of clueless idiots. CONTEXT is the only thing that matters the most in these discussions.When somebody asks if spears are better than swords then the very fist thing that you should do is to ask them in what CONTEXT we are talking about. Is it a duel, a battle, a skirmish? Is armour involved? If so what kind of armour? Are shields being used? What types of shields? What is the terrain? Is it in confided spaces like inside buildings or out in a muddy field? What exact types of spears and swords are being used? How much skilled the users of these weapons are? And so many other questions.CONTEXT is extremely important.Cheers.
>>264235BASED, read that in Matt Easton's voice. though he is a bit too charitable to the likes of shad and fucking lindybeige
>>264156Roman legionaries are no-pants copies of Gallic and Iberian warriors.
>>259182They have modelled an explosion instead of a puff of dirt
>>264159>>264096>After a short while a number of enemy soldiers suddenly emerged and started attacking us with ten or more muskets. The ones hit by the bullets were killed instantly. Yi immediately ordered the archers to counterattack using their bows, but their arrows fell far short of their target.>Montluc ordered his own harquebusiers “not to shoot, till they came within the distance of their arrows,” and then, “so soon as they were come up within arrow shot, our Harquebuzeers gave their volley all at once, and then clapt their hands to their swords,” and ran the English archers off the field. Montluc remarks: "They all carried arms of little reach, and therefore were necessitated to come up close to us to loose their arrows, which otherwise would do no execution"Good luck getting any use of those 30 rounds per minute when you get shot to pieces before even getting in range.
>>263867>>263780>and I bet you believe spears actually beat swords outside of a shieldwallThey do.
>>264235The spear is superior in 90% of all contexts.
>>264278>English archers getting outranged in a specific scenario that allows for both armies to see each other plainly ahead of time.>Says nothing for any other scenario.
>>264315>every kind of soldier that isn't already using sword>I use [insert weapon] for specific purpose of my role and preferably a sword when I am denied that purpose or can't afford it>every civilian ever>I use sword if I can afford it>90% of all contexts
>>264323If English archers were so good then why did the Tudors abandon the longbow?Checkmate Anglo
>>264323>Barnabe Riche, a warrior poet who had the distinction of living to be the oldest captain in the English military, in a published work in 1574:>"I dare undertake that if one hundred of those thousande [archers] doo shoote above ten score , that ii hundred of the rest, wyll shoote shorte of ix score , and is not this a piece of advantage thinkest thou ? when every Calyver that is brought into the feelde wyl carry a shot xviii score  and xx score , and every Musquet xxiiii  and xxx score ."
>>264371>Implying I care about the English.>>264376Watch as I employ the magical powers of a spread-out formation, and don't just stand in an open plain in front of the enemy while they aim at me. I swear, your ancestors had the dumbest ways of engaging each other in war.
>>264416Lmao this cunt thinks he can dodge a hundred arrows falling on him
>>264507>a hundred arrows falling on himThe argument is about gunfire.
>>257679This is meaningless without context, you retard. In a Rome game you expect swords to win, in a Thirty Year's War game you expect pikes to win. But what if the Romans are fighting a phalanx on level ground, and didn't pike formations have swordsmen in them?Imagine judging realism based on an oversimplified weapon triangle that you haven't even thought out properly.
>>264416>anon in 2020 has better understanding of early modern warfare than contemporary professional soldierskek
>>264565He's stating a simple fact about the limitations of their weapons, not detailing the reasons X or Y does or doesn't work.
>>264416>spread-out formationHave getting run down by cavalry
>>261054And you should know they switched back to spears during the empire
>>264572>Have getting run down by cavalryEmphasis on "Don't stand in a fucking plain".
>>263735you will never be a woman
>>263735im a reenactor
Fun fact : swprds used to be sidearms. Any unit using a sword is as relevant as a modern unit using their rifles only for the bayonets.
>>264878>swprds used to be sidearmsSwords were a primary weapon since the Bronze Age and were not invented to be sidearms. They became sidearms when armor developed enough to make them progressively impractical about around the 13th-15th centuries.
>>264909t. someone who has never heard of a hoplite
>>264909Rewriting history to fit your narrative doesn't make you right. This isn't some forum where you can lie, just so you know.
>>264156dude, a lot of the things that represented Rome was foreign and imported. Hell, they even took Greek culture and made it their own to begin with
>>264947Prove me wrong then. So far only one guy mentions the commonfolk. However even amongst them their swords became progressively more prominent when they started ditching their body armor. Legionaries threw their Javelins and then move on to their swords.
>>264947>history teachers>actually knowing history beyond basic bitch pop historythat's a very good joke anon. hell, even most history professors are fairly clueless outside of their chosen area of expertise. in fact, it's only really online that you get these people (such as yourself) who pretend to be experts on ancient, medieval and renaissance history all at once.
>>264952>>264959>no true Scotsman fallacyI accept your surrender.
>>264965You keep denying reality. Even if I was to quote an expert, you'd whine that he's unreliable.
>>264966what the FUCK are you talking about and how is it related to my comment on your meme picture?are you an actual bot?
>>264966Yeah I'm confused now too, no true scotsman fallacy? We're talking about swords being side arms originally or not and also a challenge to my own comment by you claiming I'm a liar. I challenged you to prove me wrong, the fuck is up with this?
>>264970>>264987>name-calling>moving the goalostsI yawn.
>>264993assuming you're not a bot, you need to get psychiatric help
Calm down, tranny.
>>264075Good luck maintaining a supply line retard
>>263867they literally do
>>268329nooooo muh swords are superior !!!!
>>260954AHHH SAVE ME LEGATUS
>>259156>throws chink siege engineers at you
>>268329Eh, sometimes I wonder what exactly people envision when a spearman and a swordsman meet that they would actually do a 1vs1 in some honorable duel. On the battlefield they wouldn't be by themselves and 2vs1 will push a spearman back because remaining stationary makes it impossible for him to avoid getting encircled. He must move so he doesn't get fucked. Outside the battlefield? Yeah, only guards would be walking around with spears in town so the only reason you'd be facing a guard is because they're on your ass.
>>264096You just need a couple volleys with a good musket line before the enemy routs, not even a minute
>>264136really, is that what the decisive factor was? how fortunate for us then, that it just so happened that musket bearing troops had better maneuvering and morale for centuries on end so we could advance the technology and have semi-auto handguns. can you imagine what kind of hassle it would be if you had to carry a bow and quiver around with you all day for self defense?
>ground units that have no business shooting stuff at the air can shoot air units>they even hit for full damage/accuracy
>infantry units can't walk between two trees because they're too closeAm I fucking playing an army of Americans on their mobility scooters or what?
>>272346That explains how they can soak up entire magazines of AK-47 fire. So much fat...
>>269684WW2 would be fought by millions of pikemen and archers.
>>257679This thread reminded me of this
>>258438Did you know that the Roman Legions primarily used swords as their weapons, and that they almost universally fought spear-wielding armies and kicked their asses to kingdom come?
>>261283>total warAh yes the game where cavalry is a fucking useless joke, just like real life m i rite
>>264920>t. someone who has never heard of a legionary
Get out spearfags
Reminder that pike squares were for countering heavy cavalry, which were the supreme force on battlefields at the time, not fighting infantry. This is why they feared the doppelsoldner, who was an infantry combat expert. Pikemen carried swords as well because they knew that if they faced an infantry formation, especially one led by doppelsoldners, they needed a weapon that is superior for close quarters combat than spears and especially pikes. Pikes are twenty feet long or longer, which is how they serve as an effective deterrent to armored cavalry charges, which also makes them utterly fucking useless for anything other than bracing against a cavalry charge. That is the point. And when a pike square got charged by infantry, they dropped the pikes and drew their swords.
>>272963What a fucking retard, if they would have dropped their pikes, the other formation would have just waltz over them, there were no twohander squads, they were skirmishers, also they got double the pay because they were spear fodder.
>>257679>hit building with sword>it catches on fire
>>273795Doppelsoldners are on written record using zweihanders in their pike formations to disrupt pike formations, I already explained how the great sword wielding doppelsoldners were used. TL;DR they approached the flanks with pikemen right beside and behind them in the flanks of their own formation while the two pike formations engaged in what is called a pike lock. As the name implies the pikemen can't break out of the pike lock by just dropping their pikes or they'll get fucked. Pikemen were aware of this threat so when the doppelsodners approached some pikemen would have to change to engage or else they'd start getting attacked where their pikes would be useless.This is the kind of tactics you use when countering masses of people using formations not 1 vs 1.
>>272960>barge in a spear thread>"spEaRfaGs gEt ouT"Were you dropped on your head as a kid?
>>272858Based Kurosawa poster
>>274015Landsknechts are supposed to break into spear formations, you dummy
>>274257>the point...>your head
>>274266Good thing I dodged that spear point, then.
>>263239Lmfao how often do you think that was occurring in formation fighting?
>swordman>steps on your spear thrustOohhhh nonononono how could you not have foreseen this
>camels beat horses
>>274847Herodotos and Xenophon both attest that horses that are unfamiliar with the scent of camels would shy away from them and needed to be kept upwind. It's a neat idea for an anti-cavalry cavalry unit.>camels beat horses but elephants don't
>>274862elephants are powerful enough as it is
>>257679Yes? Despite what your meme youtubers might claim, swords are in fact superior to spears.
>>274948Since you ignore all of the meaningful discussion that already went down, I'm just assume this is bait
>>272963this retard hasnt heard of alexander haha