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File: sc2_reign_of_chaos.jpg (167 KB, 1920x1080)
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What went wrong?
>>
>>217319
Campaign and also coop.
Hero units and powers are shit. SHIT.
1v1 is great.
Hinding widow mines behind buildings is cheating.
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>>217319
Brood War
>can select only 12 units, requires many different control groups
>requires learning how to maneuver each unit
>requires learning to utilize positioning
>requires individual selection of spellcasters
>requires manually using spells
>requires macro, if you forgot to queue units and you lose a battle, you're in deep shit
>unique and easily discernible units, spells, attacks, deaths, and all other effects
>no bullshit gimmick units requiring 0 player input
>early game defines mid game
>a lost skirmish usually does not end the game
SC2
>select entire army and A move
>autocasting on every unit
>automatized macro
>forgot to queue units? good thing I have 200 reactors/larvae/warp gates, DINDINDINDINDINDIN my army is back babyy
>infested terran is now a cheap early game zergling on steroids
>mines stay invisible indefinitely, recharge over time, no way to dodge attack/destroy mine before it fires
>oracles kill peons faster than dark templars, also they fly
>remember the queen's broodling spell? how about we make 2 units whose autoattack is that spell
>each match starts at mid game because "early game is boring"
>fuck around for 10 minutes, clash deathballs, whoever's spellcaster AI triggered first wins
>matches are so meaningless they literally have to host bo7s
>every battle is a chaotic blurry flashy particle mess with no way of telling what's going on until the battle is over
Gee I wonder which game is more fun and rewarding to spectate and play?
The biggest gripe I have with SC2 is that it has boiled the game down to clicking fast, something people kept attributing to BW
>>
>the most successful RTS game
>what went wrong?
Nothing I guess.
>>
>>217319
They released expansions after wings of liberty
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>>217367
What are you on about autocasting? You still need to press T to use storm. Queens also dont auto inject larva.

This sounds like its coming from a person who doesnt have a very deep understanding of either game.

>fuck around for 10 minutes

This is how I know you suck
>>
>>217325
People play anything besides VS games?
>>
>>217367
>The biggest gripe I have with SC2 is that it has boiled the game down to clicking fast
Pretty much all your previous points about BW and SC2 contradict this statement.
Really shows you how braindead BW-babbies are.
>>
>>217319
They kept releasing patches
>>
wings of liberty was fucked, terran was overpowered and maps were shit. 1/3 of the matchups were just cheese fests (pvp, zvz, tvp) and the pro scene was an embarassment. the game launched with tons of enthusiasm and players but everyone quit out of frustration and boredom. by the time they had made things better it was too late, league of legends/dota had already sucked all the life out of rts games and nobody wants to invest in a dead game. i put a lot of blame on dustin browder who gave terran all the fun toys and gave zerg and protoss shit units that all died to marines.
>>
>>217319
being a sequel to the most generic rts ever
>>
>>217319
>millions of view for english casted tournaments
>an active community with dozens of content creators
> game has become fast paced and steered away from bullshit swarhosts game that went on for 2 hours in hots
>Balance is currently in an good spot, at least at higher levels of play
>Gsl still going strong in Korea

WHAT THE EVERLOVING FUCK ARE YOU ON ABOUT OP

This is not to say sc2 is immune to criticism, but the game is in such a better state now than, say, three or four years ago.

The only thing that was, is, and always will be wrong is how retardedly oppresive and unfun zerg is in lower leagues. and i say that now that PvZ is my best matchup in masters, but seriously, fuck zerg, they made my journey through sc2 almost unbearable for the first years of it.
>>
>>217898
Dont worry everyone thinks that about you protoss players as well
>>
>>217319
Cynicism.

Instead of conceding that they needed to make two games- an update of Starcraft 1, and then an entirely new game called Starcraft 2- they tried to do both, the game sucked, Battle.net 2.0 was the worst version of it since it's inception, and they ended up just making Starcraft HD anyways.

So what you got was a game that was superficially close to Brood War, but with a bunch of modernization to get with the times- rally mining, infinite unit select, etc- without having asked what the implications of these changes was. I don't know what the meta game is like today but when I stopped paying attention it typically involved giant death balls slamming into each other and seeing who could score the first 'dunk' instead of Starcraft 1's more nuanced play / counter play that meant that no one was ever really at risk of snowballing into an immediate win off one or two good engagements.

Starcraft 2 isn't bad, per say, but it is a disappointment from Blizzard of all companies.

>>217367
>each match starts at mid game because "early game is boring"

Early game IS boring.
>>
>>217525
he said in brood war you have to spend time and attention fighting the game engine and pathfinding and the UI, while in starcraft 2 everything is sleek smooth and automated so the only thing left to do is click at lightspeed
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>>218174
just compared GSL and ASL apm because jobless insomnia, ASL peaks around 420 but stays near 300 on average, GSL peaks at 500+ with 390-400 on average. Anon may have a point
>>
>>217319
The sudden shift in tone of the setting ruined it for me. I don't care about multiplayer but I really liked the Warhammer 40k aesthetic to everything. The single player campaign was absolutely lackluster.
>>
>>217325
Why co-op? It is more played than versus.
>>
Activision
>>
>>218192
It's way easier to maintain high apm in SC2 because controls are much better.
>>
>>218219
Blizzard were always greedy fucks don't kid yourself.
>>
>>217319
E-sports niggers.
>>
>>218224
maintaining high apm is one thing, but a 100 apm difference between brood war and starcraft 2 on average is a fuckton. Sc2 really is a gookclick game. What do you need 500 apm for?
>inb4 winning
>>
SC2 is a great game, the 2nd best RTS behind BW.
BW being this good is because it is full of bugs and use of units behavior unplanned by Blizzard. You can't plan for this.
>>
>>217319
Every single about this gayme is trashy, even the fucking story is shit
>>
>>217319
Selling $10 skin packs every 3 months to a few thousand people wasn't a valid business model.
>>
>>217319
Nothing, except for the atrocious story. The only people that don't like it are Brood War autists and casuals.
>>
>>218525
>The only people that like it are autists and casuals.
Fixed that for you.
>>
>>217319
They WoWified both the graphics and the story
>>
They tried to make it an esport instead of making a good game. Brood War was a good game and expanded into an esport naturally.
>>
>>217319
The game was slowly chiseled away from a strategy game into a macro action game.
Maps are all the same and boring. All the fun stuff maps used to have are gone. Maps even hardly have gold bases anymore.
Many of the things that made the game fun were changed out of the game.
The game rewarded mechanics, formulaic play, and macro too much over other things.
Not enough room for players to express their individual style.
New top players too uncommon.
Activision.
The community around balancing the game was dogshit. I mean some 30% of the discussion was just fucking losers trolling and flaming a thread to death or people who didn't understand the game adding their two cents.
Little to no "high" moments in games. A player now wins by slowly macro-ing their opponent to death.
Part of the community didn't like what SC2 was turning into over time (e.g. DAY9).
Little new blood coming into the game.
Too many frustrating moments in the game for players (e.g. dts, old fungal growth, etc.)
Many balance changes turned core game elements on their head (e.g. protoss now being the aggressive expander instead of terran in pvt)
Not enough support from Blizzard.
Battles too fast.
Deathballs being too common.
Many silly things in the game that should have been removed or changed sooner (e.g. pylon overcharge, locusts, reapers)
Monetization for players is very skewed.
Some game elements limited options of the opponent too much (e.g. creep + overlords)
>>
>>217319
Give us starcraft 3
>>
>>217319
Nothing, actually, and that was the problem. Game is too competitive and too hard and not shiny enough to attract casual payers, I mean gamers, and thus they pulled the plug.
>>
>>217319
Units was always the biggest problem in my opinion. Brood War had a lot of soft counters, SC2 was built up with hard counters
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>>218083
>Early game IS boring.
For you, the ADHD zoomie.
>>
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>>222293
I can understand why SC2 early game is considered boring. The game is so smooth that you need to have units with abilities to add something to the gameplay. Moving units in SC2 isn't entertaining like it is in BW.
>>
>>222312
>handholding dumb units that bump at each other and get stuck at every little bush is entertaining
>>
>>222293
For everyone. There's a reason why you now start with 12 workers instead of 6.
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>>222340
>units walk in a straight line.

k
>>
>>217325
Campaign best part actually
>>
>>222117
This is horribly wrong. In BW the hard counters are just so ridiculously hard they make units unbuildable. Tank/vulture doesn't counter dragoon/zealot. You just can't go bio against P because they'll make one reaver and it will kill 50 supply of bio and scvs, it's too strong a counter.
In PvZ you can't make carriers because zerg air dabs on them so ridiculously hard you'll instantly die.
So instead of having any counters at all, your forced into using the units that aren't countered by default.
>>
>>222411
Yeah, that guy probably never played any of the Starcraft games. In SC2 even at the highest level there is more than one valid macro play style in all matchups except probably TvT.
>>
>>217325
>1v1 is great.
Haha what?
>>
>>222452
1v1 is great.
>>
>>222411
You don't build carriers because of defilers, so yeah, you're wrong
>>
Greatest RTS ever made.
>>
>>222480
>what are scourge
>>
Brood War is Chess

SC2 was... I dunno, Chess+ Ultra Extreme Edition.

You can't improve on perfection. Most of the extra units and shit added just muddies things. Less is more.
>>
>>223407
That is not why... what? You don't actually play BW at all.

Zerg air loses to Protoss air early. Corsairs are to good against muta scourge. The reason why you don't see carriers is because they aren't that effective against zerg as compared to Meching Terrans.

Also Dark Swarm completly negates all damage that carriers do making them a massive waste of both Gas as well as Damage.
>>
>>218083
what's wrong with rally mining?
>>
>>217319
idk, I rather like the game. I still play it from time to time. Don't know why people bitch and moan about it so much. I mean, it's not like it's an absolute dumpster fire of a game or anything. I just wish they'd finally drop the prices on some of the single player episodes so I can finally finish playing the protoss and the ghost ones. I'm not paying full price for stuff that came out how many fucking years ago.
>>
>>222411
>Tank/vulture doesn't counter dragoon/zealot
are you high? Throw in arbiters and templars and your statement becomes true
>You just can't go bio against P because they'll make one reaver and it will kill 50 supply of bio and scvs, it's too strong a counter
yeah and you can't run your marines head on against siege tanks because they'll get fucking blasted off the face of earth. Guess what - you can't fly your mutas into a base full of cannons! muh hard counters!
I bet you think all the pro zergs are actually 0 IQ brainlets for massing hydras against toss with reavers. In fact, why doesn't toss have a 100% winrate against other races, since reavers are so OP?
Because it's a STRATEGY game where you have to think how to use your units. It's not a grug send deathball type of game you so dearly desire.
Try attacking an army of marines with immortals in sc2. THAT'S a hard counter you retard.
>>
It shipped with only a third of the game finished.
>>
>>217319
The campaigns felt like Warcraft in space, for real this time. Or more particularly WoW, and that's not a compliment. Not to say you should play these games for the story, but not getting invested in anything at all really brings down the whole experience.
Missions were fun, for the most part, but too fast for their own good. Constant timed objectives, approaching defeat conditions, low amounts of resources, etc. Never any time to actually use tactics beyond deathballing through stuff or using/abusing whatever unit you got for this mission. Could have really, really used some build-and-destroy levels.
Army customization was pretty good, but as stated above there was rarely much time to use it, which made a lot of options just bad. In LoV they started to hit their stride, but by then the game was over.
>>
this game custom map scene is pitiful. Not even half of what wc3 has.
>>
>>217367
Holy fuck you are so bad at SC2. I bet you dont even play BW lmao
>>
>>222312
>bad controls is "entertaining"
Thats a pretty massive cope
>>
>>224755
It is true, what is wrong afraid to micro?
>>
>>217319
They didn't kill Kerrigan /maintain her evil / maintain human after wol. The super saiyan xelnaga Kerrigan was complete trash.

Also, they sould have let Amon get the host body, wasted oportunity, his true form was trash.

Also, created cringy nova, Tosh was far superior.
>>
>>217319
The humans being southerners, it was super retarded.
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>>223489
Nothing in particular. The problem is that Blizzard added a bunch of features that dramatically lowered the basic micro needed to play at a competent level without asking how that might change the game.

>>222293
Well, Blizzard apparently agrees with me since you start with 12 workers instead of 6, which itself was still more than the 4 you got in Starcraft 1. And the reason you even start with that is owed to the fact that designers don't want to overwhelm newbies, not to cater to people coming off their methadone regiment.

>>224755
"I have the most fun when my video games play themselves for me with minimal input so I can sit there like I'm actually watching a movie" said no one, ever.
>>
>>218192
SC2 apm is high because of rapidfire. In the first few years pros were averaging 200 to 250.
>>
>>224913
>"I have the most fun when my video games play themselves for me with minimal input so I can sit there like I'm actually watching a movie" said no one, ever.

Isn't that a literal Artosis quote?
>>
>>217319
Terran bias killed the game
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>>224913
Yeah but having instantly more resources and thus upping the pace of the game is more overwelming than taking 3 minutes to build your first production building, what are you even talking about?
>>
>>217367
Thank anon, this make me think sc2 more better than SC:BR
>>
>>217367
>autocasting on every unit
So like warlord battlecry unit? Damn SC2 are rock!! Dangerously based!!
>>
>>218227
bro blizzard before wow and constant credit card revenue was one of the best companies out for the value of their software, warcraft3 and diablo2 gave about 1000 hours of entertainment for about $100
>>
>>218227
I mean, yeah they are a company that wanted to make as much money as possible. The only difference is that the products they produced back then was capable of endless hours of entertainment. Now not so much.
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>>221593
>casual payers, I mean gamers
lol too true

They should've made Toss and Zerg unplayable in 1v1. Trying to balance three distinct civs/races is just too difficult and the trolls ruin the community by bitching about "Toss cheese" and "Zerg rush OP"

Should've forced everyone to play TvT. That way, focus on a rock-paper-scissor of Tech-Turtle-Rush based on Air-Tank-Bioball.

This is something Age of Empires got right: use the same units and tech tree for all civs so that civ selection is a reflection of gameplay style but doesn't materially change the game

Franks means you enjoy Paladin charge

Britons means you enjoy walls and archers

Goths means you enjoy Huskarl bioball all-in
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>>225436
Just to be clear, I do think Toss and Zerg Commanders should be playable in Co-op. Absolutely. 100%. And the maps should force you to overcome various and unique challenges. But Co-op by design has no need for balanced, competitive play.

But MP needs a Chess, Final Destination set up. Both players need to use same units, same tech options, and on a more or less symmetric map/grid/board. Does anyone play competitive Smash with items and odd maps on? No, of course not. The competitive pressure resulted in the same top tier characters on Final Destination map.
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>>217319

Got usurped by DOTA2/LOL in the eSports outside of South Korea.

SC2 was far superior to SC1 in every mertic.

SC1 elitists simply hated it because it removed of the artificial difficulty in the shitty UI. They couldn't handle the competition on a more leveled playing field.
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6bVj-nTkiU&t=89s
a superior game in almost every level compared to SC1 but lacked the grimdark of the first game.
Mengsk's inauguration speech alone is 10 times more memorable than any SC2 cinematic
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>>225436
The water in your head is leaking anon
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>>225496
>hurr durr RTS competes with mobas
where do you fags get your delusions from?





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