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Dungeon Keeper belongs on /vst/ right? Anyone got any good memories of the original games? Anyone want to bitch about the mobile abortion they shat out when EA whored out the IP? Anyone play War for the Overworld? I backed that one on Kickstarter and have been pretty pleased with it. The mere fact they went and got the original VA for the announcer/advisor was good enough for my money. The game itself isn't bad, though I feel like they felt compelled to add more things that complicated the essential gameplay unnecessarily.
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>>157659
>supposed to be about building an evil lair and defending it from heroes
>80% of the missions have you fighting against other Keepers which is a throughly miserable experience
Ngeon Keel is a good game but ill never finish it
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>>158088
>Ngeon Keel
You know, I didn't even notice that the picture was zoomed in. And I agree, I like defending from Heroes much more than I like going up against other Keepers. Especially when you can torture and convert Hero units. I wish there were a multiplayer version where one player got to build the Keep and village above the Dungeon.
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>>157659
Yeah I liked War for the Overworld and Dungeons 2 & 3 were ok too.
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>>157659
>its a gem vein right next to your dungeon episode
I still have both games on gog. I play it a few times a year for the memories.
It looks muddy as fucking shit on a modern screen though.
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>>158346
Do you use keeperfx?
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>>158381
Nope. I might check it out. It's nothing that makes the game impossible to play, but yeah its not exactly nice to look at.
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>>158421
Yeah, I used the Possession spell in OG Dungeon Keeper and was astounded by the pixels as big as a house.
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>>158510
Possession was one of my favorite spells in DK.
I loved how different monsters had different visual effects for what they see.
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>>157659
>mobile
pretend it never existed. the original dev who made it is a shithole scum of the first degree
>original
only ever played the GOG version cause back in the day my DOS PC was shit. as a DOSBoxed game, it really doesn't run well. trying to run it in "high-res" mode 640X480 makes it crash often or lag.

also on level 8 or 9(i forgot which one), you're suppose to have trained up a real strong "avatar" or a mage from previous levels, otherwise champion of the enemy dungeon keeper will just kill everything you have. the game NEVER tells you that.

and the bonus dungeons are pretty much puzzle games with only 1 solution , which is annoying and too tough for me.
>inb4 get good.
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>>158649
When in doubt bring a level 10 horned reaper, it will smash almost anything as long as you have the space to keep it happy and isolated when it isn't murdering.
>>
I feel like I really missed out but I never played the first one, I played the shit out of the second game and damn it was great.
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>>158904
I would say 1 was overall better but 2 was not bad.
I would say give it a try if you get the chance.
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>>157659
War for the over world is underrated
It was an improvement in every way gameplay wise. DK probably had a little more charm and humour though
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JACKPOT WINNER
>BURN BABY BURN
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>>158234
>I wish there were a multiplayer version where one player got to build the Keep and village above the Dungeon
That was planned iirc but never came to fruition because EA. There's this >>159354 but i never played it
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>>158982
I preferred 2, it seemed more complete to me. 1 had a nicer aesthetic though.
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>>159574
DK2 had SOUL and it was comfy as fuck. It wasn't a particularly hard or intense game but it's charm made it my all time favourite when I was a kid playing it. I still replay the campaign at least once a year.
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>>157659
I have fond memories of the first game, but l hated how limited on time you were.
I have fond memories of the second game, but l missed the monsters and all the torture, since jailing and torturing your creatures held no benefit in the second game.
War for the Overworld is okay, but feels too... I dunno, arranged. It's clearly meant to be more competitive, but it loses the whole "here is your army, do your best".
There was no mobile game.
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>>157659
>Anyone got any good memories of the original games?
plenty. Dungeon Keeper was probably the first pc game I played along Diablo, Lost Vikings 2 and a couple of racing games I can't remember.

both DK and DK2 have so much SOUL. fun, challenging (kinda) and with replay potential. Including mana in DK2 was a huge improvement, but some unit changes I didn't like (rogue and knights as dungeon creatures?! swapping Chad Dragon with Virgin Salamanders?!)

also, favorite Hero unit? mine are Giants in both games. Move like a glacier, hit like a truck.
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>>159710
>There was no mobile game.
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>>159734
THERE WAS NO MOBILE GAMES, I said.

>>159720
I miss the giant spiders. KeeperRL just doesn't work.
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>>159734
IM HORNY
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>>159925
>>>/d/
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>>157659
Literally shit. Remove the wooo youse a baddie and it's a really mediocre puzzle game pretending yo be strategy.
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>>160011
I like how puzzle game has become a /vst/ trademarked insult.
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>>160029
Don't you >> me, sunshine, you know l'm right. That's why you try to move the goalposts to bitch about your sore fragile anus.
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>>157659
Which game should I play first? I played 2 way back in the day I think. Is War for the Overworld any good?
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>>160050
Haha, I disagree personally, but I'm not invested enough to have a non-argument over it, I'm sure other Anon will entertain your idea a bit more properly though.
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>>160052
Check out 1 just to see what you sort of missed out on, and yeah Overworld is good, not a replacement but it's worth a shot, more strict in terms of execution is my problem with it but it's solid otherwise. You should probably replay 2 if it has been that long.
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>>159991
Not knowing this masterpiece
https://youtu.be/vH67duada9E
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>>160055
Cope.
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>>159720
Avatar is always a riot to convert.
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>>160434
I liked strapping fairies to the torture machine, personally. Dunno why...
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>>160689
>Dunno why...
You know exactly why
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>>160736
They weren't getting whipped, though.
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>>157659
>Tfw: you discover for the frist time that you can take controll of your own units and controll them as if it were a fps
this game is soo fucking based
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How would you improve Dungeon Keeper 1?
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>>161161
Random mission generator.
Better MP support, More MP options.
More campaigns, MP campaigns.
Really all DK needs is more content to play
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Why is DK1 so posted about on /vst/ as opposed to DKII?

Back in the day everyone I knew/pc mags just tacitly seemed to agree DK2 was superior in every way so I never really gave DK1 much of a look and have replayed the second game every couple of years since.
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>>159710
> since jailing and torturing your creatures held no benefit in the second game

What? Thats how you got free skellies, converted the heroes, and you would get map reveals and shit for stuff like gem veins or structures of the opponents, I never found it not useful.
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>>161351
The first one has a much more gritty, sinister atmosphere. The spritework holds up better than the 3D models.
Personally, I much prefer DK1 over DK2.
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>>161351
Probably because it sold better, it was also honestly a better game.
The big changes into dk2 were the full 3d, which was meh, the horned reaper becoming a summon, which I honestly hated coming from dk1, The mana system opposed to funding everything with gold which made spells significantly stronger, the look overall was much more cartoony for dk2, a lot of the special interactions between creatures were gone, evolving creatures were gone, sure a lot of that stuff almost never came up in dk1 but it gave it some cool flair to find out your demon spawns upgrade into dragons, or your bile demons will murder skeletons, and other just interesting interactions, and really dk2 lacked the heart and soul of dk1. DK2 felt like an extended joke, where DK1 was gritty, a good example is the casino, and playing disco inferno when someone wins big, it is funny, but it isn't the kind of humor that made dungeon keeper dungeon keeper.
Just compare the dk1 temple and the dk2 temple for a good example of where dk2 just lost the soul of the game.
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>>161351
Usually when wanting to talk about a series you mention the first game (unless its a massive series like Civ)
Everyone has their preferred DK, I preferred 1 simply because everything didn't look anorexic because of the spindly 3D models, gameplay didn't matter too much since I sucked on both.
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>>161361
But it kills the units. In DK1, just emprisoning them gave your goons +10% productivity.
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>>161404
>DK2 felt like an extended joke, where DK1 was gritty

Ahh, the old Fallout 2 vs Fallout 1 thing. Wonder if theres other vidya that follow this gimmick.
Jagged Alliance 2 also added more humor compared to 1.

>>162018
It kills them if you dont heal them, you need to heal the units being tortured until they convert, some take longer than others. If you just let them die you did it wrong.
Also iirc mistresses also level from the torturing so thats another advantage.
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>>161404
>its a wizard gets pissy about the noise coming from the workshop episode
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>>162025
He's talking about benefits from imprisoning/torturing your own units, not enemy ones.
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>>158660
I loved building cucksheds for my horned reapers with their own private training room, hatchery, and a square of treasury with three locked doors and level 10 imps I rotated out to maintain things.
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>>162070
Just make sure you turn that training room into a temple once they hit level 10, after studying the blade they need to turn to god.
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>>160071
One day, I hope to be chums with the dungeon keeper.
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There are a lot of things I like in War for the Overworld.
The ponies have an unique animation for torturing enemies, for example, and corrupted heroes have their appearance changing vastly, with red glowing eyes, and a Palpatine-like appearance.

And also, you can torture a prisoner to death to extract his soul and infuse it into another unit, but you can also drop prisoners in the fighting pit for an execution. Less reward with XP, but it spares you a spirit room, and it amuse everyone.
And also, it reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZixcj1BPq0 every time.
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Why are there no mods to add new creatures yet? KeepFX feels like it came so close

Also when can Tentacles get a chance to shine?
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>>163165
Make them sleep next to water, they get XP.
And l loved how they sucked chickens dry.
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>>161161
>Random mission generator.
This. And a custom map creator.
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>>161161
Made more mission about building and creating a dungeon isntead of rushing down the enemies over and over

I'm pretty sure the whole saga was killed by its forced competitive MP nature (those were the years of sc tho), it should have been more sandbox-ish
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>>161161
A Z-axis.
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>>158660
>as you have the space to keep it happy and isolated when it isn't murdering
Which is why you bring a L10 anything else. A warlock is pretty good, a mistress is one of the better ones and a vampire is probably the perfect choice, arguably challenged by a dragon only.
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>>161161
Fix all minor bugs, backport mana from 2, a few more spells and traps won't hurt as long as they don't clash with the game, add surface.
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>>161351
DK1 is a fantasy dungeon master simulator. You get atmosphere of mystique and occult with plenty of innovative concepts at least as far as RTS genre went at the time.

DK2 is a medieval dungeon management simulator with some magic and blocky looking early 3D. It inherits most of the predecessor's merits but changes the aesthetics of almost everything for the worse.
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>>162025
>If you just let them die you did it wrong.
Ghosts are fairly useful if you can't attract flies or hounds for some reason. Very underwhelming at high levels, however.
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>>163649
I liked that you could torture ghosts to death, and they would respawn with just a level lower.
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>>163670
Never tried that. I guess I'm not a very good keeper because I don't like the idea of torturing my subjects. At least unwilling ones.
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>trivialize majority of the campaign with "Transfer I Win Button"
What were they thinking?
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>>163749
They were thinking that people wouldn't go out of their way to actually find all the secrets. Some of them were hard to find.
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>>163749
You say that like most the campaign was difficult to begin with.
DK1 is not a hard game, just a fun one.
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>>160071
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLQ4kLYi2aU
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>>164082
Sure, maps like Moonbrush Wood, where you have infinite time and money to make an army of level 10s, are super easy, but some can be challenging, at least for someone, who hasn't mastered the game yet. In Hearth you're being constantly harassed from all directions, Buffy Oak can turn surprisingly sour if AI decides to bridge to you early enough, similarly Tulipscent can get nasty if you find yourself fighting heroes and blue at the same time. Mirthshire can be really annoying with constant hero attacks, Blaise End caught a fair share of people with pants down, in Mistle you're gimped by lack of a training room, and Skybird Trill is one step above other maps in terms of difficulty, where even an experienced player can get cornered if Blue starts misbehaving.
Yes, overall DK campaign is very easy, but maps have their own peculiarities that can require a specific approach. However if you can just throw your level 10 Mistress/Vampire/Reaper/Dragon at any enemy from the start, it all becomes completely meaningless. I'd would say that exactly because DK is easy to begin with, making it even easier is simply unnecessary and detrimental.
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Couldn't you have interactive torture in Dungeon Keeper? I remember a corridor of sort where you clicked on doors and saw people tortured.
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>>164295
I don't think DK1 had interaction from what I remember, you could possess and watch though.
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>>163535
I don't think I would ever start with a level 10 lock personally, the fireballing imps thing is just too dangerous on a fresh start.
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>>164308
Eh, he can be kept in a hand whenever he might be a nuisance. Building a library doesn't take long and then he'll all but disappear there unless he needs food or sleep.
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>>164308
In THE hand, ugh.
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>>164319
Still is a nussance, and they will still fireball imps well working in the library or sleeping, I would just take something less prone to FF like a Demonspawn/dragon, Mistress, or even a Bile demon.
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>>164295
That was a bonus screen if you finished a level with the Lord of the Land imprisoned. You never got to see anything though, just hear it.
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>>164303
It was a cutscene, not actual gameplay.
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>>164335
Haaa, okay. At least l didn't imagine it.
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While I prefer DK1 to DK2 in almost every aspect, the way sequel handled traps and workshops was so much better than in the original. Seriously, fuck that useless clutter wasting space in the workshop, fuck constant announcements about traps and doors being constructed, Fuck AIs going bananas and filling entire maps with workshops, fuck disarming traps by dropping imps one by one onto them, and while it's an amusing trick, fuck workshop-based economy.
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>>165059
>Seriously, fuck that useless clutter wasting space in the workshop
But DK1 traps are leagues ahead of DK2 ones.
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>>157659
>The mere fact they went and got the original VA for the announcer/advisor was good enough for my money.
Haven't paid attention to Overworld at all but that's pretty cool. DK's narrator was fucking gold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fIjqwe3TcA
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>>165165
>Haven't paid attention to Overworld at all
Amend that. The game might not be DK3, but it's good and in the same vein as Bullfrog's games. Just don't set up your expectations too high and you should enjoy it.
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>>165153

The hassle isn't worth slightly a slightly better trap.
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>>161161
Check popuation cap for room-generated monsters, discourage only getting the strongest monster type available for a mission, add lair noise management. Make monsters remember their grudges for longer. Miniable egg tiles that can spawn ancient super monsters. Uber-level box. Mana
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>>165153
I was talking about the fact that you have no control over what you manufacture or when you manufacture, so if you're interested only in magic doors and boulder traps, you still have to waste time and space on all the stuff you don't need.
As for DK1 traps being better, they are definitely more effective, especially since they cost literally nothing and have no upkeep, not to mention that boulder and lava traps are simply overpowered, but I prefer the DK2 model of building physical, destructible defenses with distinct functions (although the implementation was rather poor and WftO did it way better) rather than plopping down unavoidable damage boxes that your creatures endlessly produce.
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>>157659
I will never forgive EA murdering Bullfrog
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>>165213
>I was talking about the fact that you have no control over what you manufacture or when you manufacture, so if you're interested only in magic doors and boulder traps, you still have to waste time and space on all the stuff you don't need.
Oh, that. Fuck that.

>physical, destructible defenses with distinct functions
I mean those aren't bad but they are just bland in comparison. Not necessarily in terms of efficiency but in terms of impression.
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>>163649
In DK1, ghosts are extremely weak because they initially were supposed to have the ability to pass through doors, and be immune to physical attacks.
So their shit fighting capabilities and awful training speed were considered a good counterbalance.
However, they were yet another thing Peter promised, then walked back on, so they just turned out as rather crappy flyers that clog the temple, instead of the ultimate scouting unit.
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>>161161
KeeperFX really allows you to fiddle a lot with the game and I've been toying with it for a while, mostly creatures for now.

Imps get more spells; teleport is moved to lvl5, they get invisibility, heal (which sadly they refuse to use for now) and fireball at higher levels. Training imps is actually pretty appealing now, even outside of the sandbox maps. They also slowly gain exp while working.
Orcs are faster and slightly stronger. They need a lot more time to reach lvl10 now, at which they get rebound, turning them into mage-killers. They also make a very good counter to Mistresses and Vampires.
Casters in general receive a ranged attack at level 1. Warlocks have a better spell lineup, at the cost of longer training at higher levels. Ghosts, while still not particularly powerful, are at least viable now outside of gimmick plays.
Flame breath is reworked. It can stun enemies for imprisonment and it deals more damage, but you can't rapid-fire it in first person, making it stronger in hands of creatures, but weaker during possession. Dragons also get a melee attack and are now deadly at close range. They also get a fireball at level 3, so they aren't completely defenseless at range until meteor kicks in.
Mistress is a bit squishier and gets lightning later, but receives speed and drain sooner. Vampires also are a bit less tanky, slower, get teleport later, don't receive armor and have reworked training curve. The also start respawning at level 5.
Demon Spawns have more health and receive fireball and flame breath at highest levels, turning into mini-dragons.
Tentacles get hailstorm at lvl10. They also attack fairies and priestesses in the lair.

Barbarians hit harder, while dwarves are tankier. Monks have slightly more health than other casters, giants got a massive health upgrade, archers are faster, beefier and get sight. Knights are all-round stronger and will fuck your shit up. Priestess is immune to gas now.
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>>165424
>Flame breath
Vanilla Flame Breath clearly feels like an exploit. I wish rapidfire Flame Breath wasn't possible.
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>>165605
>Vanilla Flame Breath clearly feels like an exploit.
Not only that, it's also borderline useless outside of possession. And since dragons have no melee attack, their only proper means of fighting are Meteors and Word of Power (except it also doesn't work as intended in vanilla). So as a result you get big, slow, expensive creature that can only soak damage, maybe shoot some projectiles at higher levels, and if it actually defeats something with its flame breath, it kills regardless of prisoner capturing option. Rather than an all-round powerhouse, you get a shitty meatshield. Unless of course you possess it, then you can solo any enemy in the game.
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>>165424
>that spoiler
fucking kek

>>157659
also fuck you, /vst/. I've spent half my weekend playing a custom campaign. I could get out the trance only because last map I played was bugged (it's supposed to be a siege map, but no heroes are spawning).
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One thing I really appreciate about Dungeon Keeper 1 is how wildly different each level can play. You can have puzzles, matches against other keepers, or just surviving waves of enemies. Especially with the Deeper Dungeons and fan levels, you can see just how creative people can be.
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Do you think fortified walls should be destructible?
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>>165861
I'm honestly not sure. I kinda like the permanence of fortified walls, but it also feels exploity.
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>>165861
>>166017
One of the late game spells can break walls. And desu it's countered by the fact you're on the defensive, and your expansion is permanently limited, and it's very easy to fuck up since just once and its over.
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>>158660
Anon's you can keep the horned reaper's from going mad by giving them small handful of gold every few minutes.
If you fuck up and let them get pissed off then they can NEVER be sane again.
Bribe them and you don't have to worry about keeping them in a separate room.
>figured this out when I was 8
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>>159354
I like it but it has a few things lacking over DK2.
>spirit chamber makes getting level 10 monsters a total joke
>no dark angels
Gotta love the much improved trap system though.
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>>166058
Dark angels are lame. They feel like fanfiction material.
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>>166058
>Read through the DK2 manual
>They had to get permission from Games Workshop to use the term "Dark Angel"
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>>166034
>One of the late game spells can break walls.
Yeah, but AI doesn't use it, so it's just a tool for player to crack open dungeons of turtling AIs.
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>Dungeon Keeper Online (地下城守护者OL), originally known as Dungeon Keeper World, was a MMORPG based upon the Dungeon Keeper series. It was announced on December 1st, 2008 by NetDragon Websoft Inc., an online game developer based in China. It has two modes; a land mode, and the dungeon mode, which incorporate elements of World of Warcraft and Dungeon Keeper respectively. The game was made available only in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau. The servers running the game shut down on 20 December 2013.

huh...
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>>165365
They should be possible to mod to be more useful as non-scouts, then. Do they have any fun abilities? Due to them being so weak I didn't use them often because converted heroes are normally better.
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>>165424
>They also attack fairies and priestesses in the lair.
Would it be possible to use the attack animation without actually attacking? Give them efficiency boosts or something instead. Feels like there shouldn't be any resistance from converted ones.
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>>165861
Yes, but a spell to refill a tile with earth is also a must. As well as teaching AI to use both.
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>>166052
>If you fuck up and let them get pissed off then they can NEVER be sane again.
This is why I stopped using them. They are cool and not that hard to keep happy, but if they flip out once it's over.
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>>166113
The WoW thing is weird but
>Dungeon Keeper but with Savage's RTS gimmick, RTS for Dungeon Keepers and TPS/FPS action game mechanics for the heroes invading (and Dungeon Keepers monsters if they're feeling ambitious)
I want it now.
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>>166599
The Cave-In spell was supposed to refill a tile with earth when cast at max power, but, in a typical Molyneux move, the feature was cut (likely because they never managed to make it work properly).
Worth noting that there are still mentions to that feature in the manual.
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>>166687
Shame. And makes sense about max power. Damn, we really need a fan remake of DK1 with QoL stuff.
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>>166501
>Do they have any fun abilities?
Oh boy, let me take you on a journey. We will beat Skybird Trill, the last map of the campaign, pacifist style.

Our opening moves are orthodox - grab the gems, make some big-ass rooms, throw stuff into training room and let the time flow. However, in this run we will not capture the dungeon with specials; we dig out the gold and do not touch anything else in the East.
The core of our army will be Ghosts - all at least level 6 and at least one level 8. Since Ghosts train slowly as fuck, training Dragons and Orcs first, and ghostifying them later is a good idea. Or at least used to be, since in current version of KeeperFX Blue will very aggressively scavenge your creatures and you will just watch your Dragons pop out of existence.
Once you have your Ghosts ready, you can make a Guard Post Diode. Fun fact - if you put a guard post on a shore, creatures can drop into water, but can't climb back onto the guard post again. The exception are fliers, but for some reason they do not try to path through the diode.
Time to sneak into the hero dungeon. If you play KeeperFX, you can just use Invisibility and bypass all doors. If not, you will have to blow Tentacles away with Wind and get in the orthodox way. We want to destroy the heart, so instead of wasting time with Ghost's pitiful damage, find the Reaper and have him do the heavy lifting. By the way, this is his only moment of glory in this run.
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>>167133
Okay, the middle dungeon is in ruins, so time to get the hell out of there before we get caught by the second Reaper. Heroes will have no way to get into your dungeon, so Blue will be visited by a horny guy, blonde chick and lots and lots of tentacles. This may sound like a prime hentai material, but unfortunately, we have no time to appreciate the spectacle, as we need to prepare the stage of the plan. You see, once Blue cleans up the heroes, he will capture the middle dungeon - there's a blue tile at the and of the eastern tunnel. Since Vampires see invisible creatures, we don't want to get caught by them sneaking around, so we'll prepare a little shortcut leading directly from the tentacle lake to the eastern tunnel before Blue's Imps can get in our way.
In the red dungeon we have to do two things - extend the western tunnel to the lake and put guard posts on the entire shoreline. This includes the gem zone, so we need enough funds prepared for the rest of the game. Be careful while digging to not startle any Blue Imps, one confrontation with Blue and you're dead. Once the coastline is secured, lock the gem zone and put your Imps under arrest to make sure they won't aggro any enemies.
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>>167136
So far everything has been easy-peasy, but now comes the hard part. Sneak into eastern tunnel. Go to Avatar's prison, put Invisibility on, and wait for him to stand in the middle of the island. Use Wind to blow him away in the direction of Blue's dungeon.
After a while Avatar will break through the doors and die miserably in Blue's dungeon. Grab as many Ghosts as you can and observe the area west of your dungeon heart. The moment heroes spawn, drop a Ghost, quickly possess it and blow away enemies into water. If here's anyone still left on land, quickly possess a next Ghost and use Wind again. Rinse and repeat until all hero waves end up in the lake. This may sound easy, but it's not, enemies don't always get blown far away and sometimes get stuck. Save scumming might be necessary.
Once all heroes are in the water, you can sit back and watch the show. Blue should be able to deal with the heroes, but in case something goes south, you can always possess a creature to drag or blow some heroes away.
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>>167143
In vanilla this would be the end, but we're playing KeeperFX, so we have to beat Blue as well. Fortunately, AI doesn't seem to mind having its dungeon heart slowly zapped to death, so this part is just a formality.
And here we go, the final map of Dungeon Keeper, beaten without killing or even directly harming a single enemy.

Okay, but what if some flying enemy decides to path through the guard posts after all? This never happened to me, but it might be just dumb luck or something that will be fixed in the future. In vanilla DK, it's possible to push enemies through the corners with Wind. You can dig out the western tunnel in such way that only tile corners touch the water and push heroes through them. This is however orders of magnitude more difficult and would require some crazy luck, but it should be possible in theory.
KeeperFX fixes this bug, however since some community maps depend on it (for example one of the levels in Ancient Keeper campaign) you can tell the game to preserve the bug in rules.cfg.
>>
>>167150
Forgot to mention this - for the gem zone, the guard post method seems to be the only option, but actually, you can solve the problem simply by not reaching the gems at all. You can live off the slave labor of your minions by selling traps and doors constructed in the workshop, it's just a royal pain in the ass to do.
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>>167133
I forgot how awful that game looked. But the chill of terror down my spine when I spotted the horned reaper wasn't fake.
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>>167356
I actually still find the game aesthetic charming to this day. Would be cool to have hi-res textures though.
>>
>>168071
I dunno, I can stand DK2, but DK1 is just too pixellated for me.
I'm used to Dune and Doom where you can tell what's going on, but Dungeon Keeper, it's just too much for me. Still, I admit I miss the Warlock cooking his chicken.
>>
>>167133
>>167136
>>167143
>>167150
>>167193
This is the case when autism produces something good. Is there a list of creature abilities somewhere? I don't remember what some of them do and then there are nuances specific to creatures anyway sometimes (at least for melee).
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>>165196
When you say don't set your expectations too high where do you think it's lacking? I thought it was just as good of a DK3 as a real DK3 would have been.
Just genuinely curious what people might have wanted in it or where they felt it didn't live up to its influence.
>>
>>168281
Check Dungeon Keeper wiki.
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>>168493
They had to improvise with available creatures, spells, rooms and traps to avoid getting drowned in EA lawyers. So mostly that. The game just doesn't feel quite like a DK3. Very similar, though.

>as good of a DK3 as a real DK3 would have been
Quite probable. But we'll never know because Bullfrog died and so many fans might still harbour somewhat unrealistic expectations.
>>
Any good community campaigns?
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>>169536
No.
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Oink.
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>>173371
what the fuck
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>>159734
>>159925
glad some anons still remember this meme. The spam was glorious
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>>175116
I don't want to remember.
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Damn, that Deeper Dungeons expansion sure is challenging.
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>>162705
>War for the Overworld
Been a while since I've played it, have they added a lot of new stuff? Think I played it while TB was still alive (rip ;_;7) - heard something about co-op or what was that?
The problem is that after completing most of the singleplayer content there's only the discord for multiplayer-anything, and there's this nerd that just stalks it and stomps all noobs (me included), really a downer, I just want to play and learn at my own rate, not have this sweaty faggot waste my time.
>>
>>175413
Can't tell, I only play against AI. They added some titans of sort, some Hunger Games game where you fight against other Keepers (AI), and a few other campaigns.
>>
>>166052
you can actually put them in a temple which will give them the "pray at temple" job which makes them automatically go to the temple to reduce anger when they are done eating and collecting salary.
this way you can actually have them as a normal member of your dungeon. they arent actually that good though since their training costs are so high, you can train about 6-8 other creatures to level 10 for the same cost to get 1 horned reaper to level 10
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>>167133
you can protect your creature from scavenging by having a creature of that type in your temple. i think 1 creature working in your temples protects 2 other creatures of the same type from scavenging
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>>176038
Yeah, in theory, but creatures get hungry, so you have to keep spares in your temples and as a result the number gets closer to half of the creatures of that type. Also Vampires hate temples, so that won't work for them.
I don't know what changed, but in the current version of KeeperFX AI is way more annoying with scavenging than it used to be; also for some reason it's very difficult to counter-scavenge, although I've never seen AI actively protecting creatures from scavenging.
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>>168493
It was missing the big thing DK3 hinted at, which was going to the surface, Ironically dungeons 3 did this.
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>>168493
The mistress-equivalent isn't coom-worthy enough.
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>>161161
Obviously it's weird how spells in DK1 cost gold, it's very atypical/odd and doesn't fit the standard trope that you would expect.

But instead of mana I think another good idea would have been if the Library worked exactly like the DK1 Workshop does. Traps and doors are created automatically which you can then use instantly, so do the same with spells, just increase their usage count. It would also mean that your Library doesn't become useless after you research everything.

This is basically Demon's Souls spell use (mana) vs Dark Souls spell use (stock).
>>
>>176452
War for the Overworld had plans for this too but they ran out of money and had to rush the game out. The final product is essentially Dungeon Keeper 2.5, for better or worse.
>>
>>179140
Interesting concept; that would make a lot of cheese impossible or at least not viable. What about spells like Possess, Create Imp, Obey? First two are something you'd want to be able to always use, the last one is a sustained spell.
Maybe rather than slots, add a cast delay and make Library shorten it by a fraction depending on total research skill of creatures working in the Library?
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>>179192
Make Possess free and for Create Imp give several to the player at the start of the map. Moreover, let Dungeon Heart regenerate up to 1 Create Imp slowly for free.
Don't know about Obey. I don't even remember it well because I never used it beyond the first time.
>>
>>180198
>I don't even remember it well because I never used it beyond the first time.
It's actually an amazing spell. First and foremost, it increases the speed of your creatures by a quarter, and keep in mind, this multiplier is applied after slap and Speed spell bonuses, allowing you boost speed of creatures up to five times. Slapped, sped up Dragon under Obey spell will outrun even a Fly.
Furthermore Obey prevents creatures from performing their anger jobs, like deserting or destroying rooms, and I think it applies to Horned Reapers as well.
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>>180377
>and keep in mind, this multiplier is applied after slap and Speed spell bonuses
I know, I just didn't like its downside, whatever it is. It hurts your creatures, right?
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>>180563
Not really hurts, I think they just won't rest in Lair when wounded and will keep working instead. You can turn it off for a while after a battle or heal creatures manually.
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>>180579
I guess I should have given the spell a second chance, then. I just remember its downside being so bad that I went "nope!" and never tried it again.
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>>159734
Have this gem.
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>>160349
Not him but saying "cope" has become a form of actual coping. When you see someone use that word you can disregard their argument.
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>>182739
>heart destroyed
along with sides as well
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>>182739
>24 hours until tile revealed
>unlock tile for $100
It would be funnier if it weren't true.
>>
>>185323
I really don't understand, there are so many games out there, why would anyone play those that drain your money like some gold-digging hoe?
I'm not even talking about being able to afford that or not, it's about willingly allowing some corporate jew blatantly scam you out of your money.
>>
>>185614
Retards are retarded. I remember seeing UFC fighters backstage talking about Clash of Clans when it was huge and joking about how many hundreds of dollars they had wasted on it.
>>
>>185323
I have to appreciate the unapologetic audacity of EA. They know they are here to scam you, they flat out admit it and are proud of it.
I kinda love it.
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>>165165
>DK's narrator was fucking gold.
that guy is on par with Darkest Dungeon's narrator. But the writer of his lines? WOW! Fucking love that person.
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>>157659
Thanks for mentioning the game. I'll pick it up on sale. I know the publisher Kalypso had a couple of DK knockoff games, but they were just horrible from what I've heard.
>>
>>176081
One strategy I liked for the final level was to bring along a level 10 vampire and rush a scavenger room for him.
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>>158234
>Especially when you can torture and convert Hero units
I really enjoyed doing that to fairies in DK2
And after converting them I would keep torturing them anyway, then they want to leave so I send them to the casino so they arent so butthurt
>>
>>187502
They weren't horrible, just mediocre. The Kalypso specialty.
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>>162025
>Wonder if theres other vidya that follow this gimmick.
I felt that way with DOOM 2016 and DOOM Eternal
>>
>>185870
It get worse in French : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhXY49-hRz8
>>
>>190008
The Kalypso ones are the one where you have no city-building and just send parties outside to kill everything, right?
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>>190257
You build a dungeon but instead of attracting creatures you directly hire them to come to your dungeon, so long as you have the rooms to satisfy their requirements.
Then you prepare a war party to go above ground and you select all your units and attack-move the enemy areas.
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>>190260
>You build a dungeon but instead of attracting creatures you directly hire them to come to your dungeon, so long as you have the rooms to satisfy their requirements.
Mate you realize you describe pretty much every dungeon game ever? Except maybe Evil Lair, the mobile one.
>Then you prepare a war party to go above ground and you select all your units and attack-move the enemy areas.
These one, okay. I though I was mistaking it for that one game where heroes come to you and you need to let them get happy getting treasure and killing monster before sucking their happiness away through unspeakable medieval torture.
>>
>>190273
That was the first one and it kind of sucked,that's why the next ones cribbed much more from DK.
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>>190303
I though I was mistaking it for Impira.
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Anyone here ever heard of Dwelvers ?
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>>190273
Most of the others you "attract" them by building the right rooms and waiting a period of time, which is more immersive.
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Which creatures and heroes do you convert and which do you turn into skellingtons?
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>>190953
that game was so fun, you can turn your enemies into skeletons, ghosts or vampires
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>>190953
Anything with magic is usually worth keeping, the rest go to rattle town. Except the lord but usually capturing him ends the level and I think he can't be carried over anyway.
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>>190953
Anything that has a metric shitfuckton of magic (fairy, monk, priestess, wizard) is for conversion. Samurai's pretty good too, but he fights the mistress. Archers are a maybe; they have relatively low wages.
Thief depends on whether or not you've got the gems to turn him into the knight.
The rest are skellie fodder (with maybe the occasional one/two turned into ghosts, just for funsies). Tunnelers are shittier imps that require pay, mountain dwarves are fast but otherwise mediocre, barbarians are weaker orcs, and giants are ridiculously slow, even at lv 10, and get constantly hungry.
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>>191057
Fuck fairies. They die to literally anything, take ages to train and are pain in the ass to convert, since you have to babysit them in the torture room. Unfortunately, in most cases they already have heal, so they won't die in the prison and ghosts are even worse.
Samurai are so damn good, they are worth some annoyance. And if you make lairs that have only one entrance, you can just manually separate creatures into different rooms.
Archers are almost always skeleton material; one of the best things about lightning is bypassing the rebound, which is annoyingly common among heroes.
Dwarves thanks to their speed and rebound are pretty good mage killers, and giants hit super hard, although they are surprisingly squishy. With them it usually depends on what I need at the moment.
>>
>>191057
Aren't wizards at odds with your warlocks and fairies with mistresses as well?

>Thief depends on whether or not you've got the gems to turn him into the knight.
Wut? Gems?
>>
>>191173
Never had a problem with fairies and mistresses in the same lair.
Also, I don't remember warlocks and converted wizards duking it out. Warlocks and vampires, though, yes: I had to build completely separate rooms (lair, hatchery, treasury) for vampires, lest they chop my warlocks to pieces.
A gem seam gives you infinite funds, meaning you can afford to take a thief all the way to level 10 knight.
>>
>>191173
You're thinking about DK2. In DK1 lair enemies are as follows: flies vs spiders; demon spawns vs hounds; warlocks vs vampires; skeletons vs bile demons; mistresses vs samurai.
The warlocks vs vampires one doesn't really make much sense though, more intuitive pairings would be warlocks vs wizards and vampires vs monks.
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>>191197
>mistresses vs samurai
why?
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>>191206
If I remember correctly, something about degenerate sluts and "upright honorable warriors" not liking each other. Pretty much muh bushido meme.
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>>191216
>upright honorable warriors
>working for the dungeon master

nah, he wanted some of that puss and she didnt want his jap micropenis
>>
>>191197
Yeah, vampires versus warlocks makes no sense.
In fact, the game's manual mentions the priestess hating vampires, but there's no implementation in the game.
Also, the knight and reaper should be mortal enemies, but apparently it wasn't implemented either.
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>>191219
Or maybe they are anime harem protagonists desperately trying to protect their virginity from horny semen demons.
>>
>>191179
>>191197
Yes, I guess I remembered wrong. Although I wasn't thinking about DK2, I just thought wizards not liking warlocks in DK1 was one sided, i.e. that the latter would not initiate fighting.
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>>191240
Do samurais have any mana to lose?
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>>190310
That dungeon heart looks very pleased
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>>166073
You're lying. Show me.
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>>191315
What I find strange is that the GOG version of the manual is missing this page entirely.
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Anyone know of some good creature-combinations in War for the Overworld, or will it always lose against beast-spam?
>>
>>191331
GW is nintendo tier retards.
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>>191354
I vaguely remember that spam of Shadows and Bafus was good enough to solve most problems.
>>
>>191381
Right, spam counters spam, but I was hoping for something a little more sophisticated for a counter. Like a clever combination of units or spells/traps.
>>
>>191331
wew
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>>191397
>traps
Did they change those to entice the player to use anything else beside massed cannons with fortifications?
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>>191539
I don't think cannons are good against anything in pvp.
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>>191354
>will it always lose against beast-spam?
Really? Micromanaging beasts was a pain in the ass since they cant be saved after fainting, so I avoided them
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>>191712
Lmao just spam them. They level up for free in the arena, and they level up even faster if you have prisoners.
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>>191656
>pvp
Never played anything but campaign and one attempt at the sandbox thingy.
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>>191716
My problem with pvp is that it seems to remove the comfy-aspect entirely as it just becomes a rush to acquire as many beasts as possible while your regular creatures are utterly useless, except for cultist.
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>>192241
>seems to remove the comfy-aspect
I wonder if what makes DK work best is when it lets you play at your own pace in the campaign, staying within your impenetrable walls while you've got gems and a training room. There are many levels where you get invaded from hero portals on a timer, are those levels less liked overall?

There's also so many gem seams in DK's campaign that I honestly always thought of that as a bit of a flaw - giving you unlimited gold. But maybe I'm mistaken for thinking that way, because having limited gold kinda puts you on a time limit too, removing the "comfy".
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>>192311
Not him, in my opinion it should have both. Either dependent on difficulty level or a mix of more tense levels with laxer ones. Those without some kind of obfuscated timer don't automatically become trivial, however, there are plenty of ways to introduce difficulty in a non-retarded way.
>>
>>192311
I'd clarify that the comfy-aspect is more related to how you construct your dungeon. Like not having rooms with no walls around them, or rooms that are too big. In pvp it's all about being as efficient as possible, and most rooms don't benefit from having walls in a meaningful way - except for library and training room, but I wish more rooms required walls to encourage the comfy-factor.

Personally I don't mind "timed missions", what I do mind is small maps or maps that tries to dictate how I design my dungeon, either through bedrock or water/lava - being able to rebuild earth-blocks is a godsend that I now sorely miss in the other DK's.

Another thing is that you have a lot of alternative ways of acquiring gold, albeit inefficient, but as long as you have a steady supply of enemies you can hoard gold forever.
>>
>Dungeon Keeper 1 has an entire AI written for prisoners and how they behaved toward food
>all the other games neglected that
>>
>>192377
>being able to rebuild earth-blocks is a godsend that I now sorely miss in the other DK's.
True. Really hard to go back once you've experienced this once.
>>
>>192311
One of the gripes I had with WftO - it didn't really let me enjoy the levels, everything was a rush. As a result, I barely remember any maps aside from the necromancer one, since it was gimmicky.

DK allows you to take your time and with so many ways to exploit the game, you can turn levels into "how to break the design and cheese this map" or "how to achieve this utterly pointless thing" playgrounds. Destroying AIs by sending heroes at them; cheeky rushes to wall-off the key points (including AI's gem tile); trap spam; vampire spam; millions of reapers; finding ways to avoid any combat before capturing the prison you're supposed to get in the mid-game to convert every single hero on the map; bridge abuse; guard post abuse; ruining AI economy by denying it access to gems and replacing all its manufacturing creatures with vampires; using magic doors, lava traps and invisible imps to literally segment, capture and sell the entire dungeon of AI without any combat; using destroy walls to reveal AI dungeon and harass it with spells; winning levels without harming enemies; generating money by selling doors and traps; beating hero dungeons with possession only.

It isn't difficult to make a level where you have no choice but to fight the waves of enemies or have to constantly push forward through fortifications, and don't have access to exploity mechanics, but with no ways to work around the challenge, you can only face it head-on, which in my opinion doesn't have much replay value or give you reasons to stay longer on the map.
That being said, it's not like I hate maps that actually pressure you, at least at the beginning, until you reach some safe spot. Deeper Dungeons maps tend to have this design - you have to rely on limited resources until you capture rooms or entrance or gem tile that let you take your time and prepare, and I really like that. Good mix of challenge and comfy.
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>>192417
>mfw literally only played WftO in pet dungeon or on custom maps with a passive AI
>>
>that one time you hand-dropped a pile of maxed out bile demons into a narrow corridor full of invading heroes
The ensuing pandemonium of loud farting and choking heroes is to this day one of my most cherished videogame memories, and I will NEVER grow up from it.
>>
>>192393
What do you mean how they behaved
You drop a chicken and they eat it
>>
>>192507
>pairing bile demons with level +8 warlocks for that holy trinity
sad it ultimately didn't matter since you were better off just stacking dark angels
>>
>>192417
>invisible imps
Wait, WHAT?
>>
>>192526
If you cast invisibility on imps, most creatures won't be able to see them, allowing you to claim terrain without being disturbed. Pop a magic door once you reach a corridor, or even a lava trap if you feel cheeky, and you have cut off a portion of enemy dungeon.
Useful tip: you can drop creatures on the door tile, so you can use it as a starting point for claiming.
>>
>>192624
That's crazy, I keep learning something new about this game even all those years later.
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>>192624
>Useful tip: you can drop creatures on the door tile, so you can use it as a starting point for claiming.
>not having at least 2 imps with teleport
>>
>>192625
Some other fun stuff, that you might not know after completing the base game:
- guard post and temple tiles cannot be climbed onto from water/magma; great for making one-way breaches into lakes
- if a tunnel touches water/magma tile with a corner, this corner can be traversed through, but only when walls are not fortified; you can open the dungeon to a lake only for a moment and you can do it without having to research anything
- if a creature moves quickly enough, it can pass through any corners; it can be easily achieved with the wind spell (fixed in KeeperFX, but can be restored)
- giving a creature even a single piece of gold will make it skip the next payday
- boulder traps can be destroyed with a meteor spell (at least in KeeperFX)
- if you possess an imp, you can dig through neutral fortified walls (fixed in KeeperFX, but can be restored)
- if you charge a spell, release the mouse button and immediately press it again, the spell will remain charged; doesn't work with lightning

>>192631
I don't see how that's related. The point is, you can have closed doors to enemy dungeon and drop an imp on the door tile, on the enemy side. That way you don't have to worry about imps running (or teleporting) into enemy territory and dying like retards, but still can resume claiming terrain whenever you want to with a single, invisible imp in a fully controlled manner.
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>>192671
>I don't see how that's related.
I meant that you shouldn't need to pick up and drop them by the time you have magic doors to spare for tricks. Normally.
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>>192693
You want to pick them up and drop them, because in this scenario you want to do it in a controlled, covert way, without all of your imps charging into death zones.
You connect to the enemy's dungeon, claim some of his territory, cut off the claimed part with doors before he can take it back and close the doors. Doors will prevent enemy imps from reclaiming what you just captured, and your imps from turning into piles of corpses. Then you take an imp, cast speed and invisibility on it, and drop it on a door tile, so it can claim more. Rinse and repeat. That way with some luck you can capture key points of enemy dungeon even if he has superior army. There may be no need for that in the original campaign, but it can make your life easier in Deeper Dungeons or community maps.
>>
I felt that Deeper Dungeons was super grindy, with a lot of maps consisting of going through a dungeon full of traps that you had to trigger. It doesn't seem like that anybody else feels this way. Maybe it's my memory playing tricks with me.
>>
>>192928
I only remember two fragments from DD vividly. One is needing to constantly possess a dragon and having nothing better than fire breath to take down magic doors, and another with a tentacle being involved. For some reason I liked the tentacles even though they are so situationally useful, to put it politely. I badly need a refresher, but either setting up a VM or an OS on host hardware keeps getting this postponed.
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Interesting, when I reached 255 creatures, imps included, thieves stopped evolving into knights, they just repeated level 10 endlessly. Had to delete one imp to get the knights. Seems like the code attempts to add the evolved creature before deleting the evolving one and the hard cap of units is reached.
Still, I hope that KeeperFX eventually manages to replace static data structures with dynamic ones, the 2048 things limit can be really annoying on bigger maps.
>>
>>193003
Similarly, when at unit cap, putting your own creature in prison or torture room doesn't yield a skeleton or a ghost, creature just dies. More importantly though, it seems that the unit cap is global; I just checked the map script for Netzcaro and it looks like the final wave of heroes didn't spawn due to cap. This has some incredible cheese potential - you can just fill the unit array with imps (which isn't even much of a problem if you have a temple) and no more units will spawn. This means no more hero parties and AI Keepers basically going bankrupt, since they always slap their imps to death and will eventually run out of them.
>>
>>192509
They had some fun behaviours where they pilfered whatever food they could get, on the basis that they'll never know if they'll be fed again.
>>
>>193037
Hut, that might explain why I sometimes encountered empty enemy keeper dungeons on super long and big maps.
I had too many imps for them to get creatures anymore.
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>>194273
Bullying, huh?
>>
Hey! What exactly would people want to see from a dungeon keeper like game?
>>
>>197686
Lots of monsters, many ways to use prisoners, many way to use the different rooms, and lots of different traps.
I miss how WftO didn't have a rolling stone trap.
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>>193037
>no more hero parties and AI Keepers basically going bankrupt, since they always slap their imps to death
Sounds like communism.
>>
>>197686
In my opinion the #1 thing to get right is the atmosphere which means at least getting the lighting to look good. wfto looks ugly, the lighting is flat, the colours are saturated while dark (it's like they just turned the brightness down) and it looks brown as hell. It really shouldn't be so hard for your lighting and colour to look at least as good as a game that is 23 years old.

The other most important thing is your roster of monsters, important as a cast of characters in a movie. It depends on what direction you want to go, but something like the zerg from starcraft or creatures from Abe's Oddysee have that cool non-humanoid monstrous feeling. Everyone's heard the common criticism of DK2 that its creatures are a bunch of boring humanoids.
Even Pokemon have that great non-humanoid design to them (obviously using a much more cheerful artstyle) they remain somewhat relatable as pets with enough animal aspects to their design, which to an extent is what your creatures in Dungeon Keeper are: "pets" rather than "RTS military troops". But DK2 fans may disagree with me here.
>>
>>197741
>But DK2 fans may disagree with me here.
No, I agree. For all the love I had for DK2, it had too many units.
Then again, I have a peculiar dislike for these games where an unit is of a certain race and thus locked in a role.
>elves can only use bows, and literally nothing else
>>
>>191224
The reaper is the mortal enemy of anything it is close to well not actively killing things.
>>
>>197700
Explain.
>>197741
That's why, I hate war for the overworld.
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>>197775
>i hate war for the overworld
Do I really want to speak with you when we disagree so harshly?
>>
>>197686
I can write essays about game mechanics, but aside from that I'd really like it to capture the vibe, artstyle and dynamics of the first Dungeon Keeper. In DK2 everything seems kinda bland, slow and floaty. DK has much more momentum - when creatures start fighting for example, their attacks and spells have a lot more power and impact behind them. Everything is crispier and doesn't blend as much with the environment, the architecture, objects and lighting are also much more atmospheric. DK2 and its clones just can't pull it off.
>>
>>197779
I'm a fan of DK1 not DK2.

DK2 get's everything wrong about DK.
>>
>>197800
Sadly every "spiritual successor" to the Dungeon Keeper series seems to base its entire game design off DK2 hey.
Kind of like how a lot of Rollercoast Tycoon "spiritual succesors" seem to take more inspiration from RC2 than the actual fan favourite RC2.
>>
>>197800
But I like WftO for the many ways you can use prisoners, and you said, not that you dislike it, but that you HATE it.
>>
>>197819
>Kind of like how a lot of Rollercoast Tycoon "spiritual succesors" seem to take more inspiration from RC2 than the actual fan favourite RC2.
I take it you mean RC1? I've played both and they seem pretty identical to me.
>>
>>197831
Wow, racism is not cool, man!
Next you'll say that Planet Coaster doesn't feel that different than RC3!
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>>197833
I dislike RC3 doesn't play like RC2.
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>>197686
I want to feel evil as fuck
Also lots of unique interactions between creatures, spells and rooms
Bonus points for lots of beasts instead of 95% humanoid minions
>>
>>197831
ffs sorry, I meant how spiritual successors take more from RC3 than RC2.
>>
>>198126
I'm still mad we don't have special animations for the beasts in the dinner rooms or the casino. I dunno, animals could eat in some kind of bowl or something.
>>
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Gee, I sure love slowly exploring an oversized dungeon filled to the brim with lightning traps, boulder gotchas and hero parties dropping from the ceiling. Especially when I don't even have stupid wooden door to stop my imps from committing mass suicide. What a fucking barrel of fun.

Easily the worst DD map.
>>
Any tips for a first timer?
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>>200519
The campaigns for these games are so incredibly newbie-friendly that they work just fine for teaching you the game. It introduces one or two elements at a time.

Unexplained mechanics might be room efficiency, perhaps? It just means your rooms will work much better if they're surrounded by walls.
The longer you wait around while your creatures train in the training room, the higher chance you'll steamroll everything in the level, it's that simple. I think the main way you can lose in this game is when you dig open an area too early and and a bunch of higher level enemies pop out.
>>
>>200519
Oh man, if creating this thread got ONE person to try Dungeon Keeper for the first time, then /vst/ was a success.
>>
>>200550
>rooms will work much better if they're surrounded by walls
Isn't it only true for several room types? Library the obvious one, I think also hatchery, workshop and probably torture chamber. Definitely not treasury or lair.
>>
>>200779
https://dungeonkeeper.fandom.com/wiki/Treasury
>As the efficiency of the room increases, the more gold it can hold on one tile
https://dungeonkeeper.fandom.com/wiki/Lair
>The number of slots available in a Lair depends on its efficiency; the more efficient it is, the more creatures it can accommodate.

I don't fault you for getting it wrong, these are obscure mechanics.
>>
>>200785
I never bothered with minmaxing or especially looking things up various fan sites because just making rough estimates was always enough.
So it's true for all rooms except bridges, then?
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>>200793
>looking things up
personally I knew about the Treasury efficiency because you can see the maximum size of the gold pile graphics change. I had to double check the Lair though.

That wiki doesn't say whether the amount of guards you can have on a Guard Posts changes. But it does say this:
>Guard Posts and Bridges also provide high efficiency to neighboring tiles. This makes it unwise to use doors for room efficiency as they sell for more gold than Guard Post tiles. In fact, the most efficient dungeon would be one without any internal walls and just Guard Posts separating the rooms
>>
>>200807
My solution to increasing gold storage was always to put treasury tiles into every irregularly shaped area, of which I always had an excessive number due to building all rooms like the in-game hints suggested I should.
Decided to go look at a few things in the wiki and it reminded me of this fun bit I have completely forgotten about:
>Sufficiently trained Spiders like to go Prisons and freeze captives there for fun.
>>
>>197686
I'd like to see the sim mechanics explored more over the RTS mechanics. I think it'd be pretty interesting to actually manage the needs of monsters in your dungeon and deal with heroes.
>>
>>200519
The game is easy and relaxed until the last levels, which are also relatively easy once you learn the maps. There are also so many ways to cheese the game, you're actually better off going in blind and enjoying learning stuff by yourself, since once you know all ins and outs, the game becomes completely trivial.
If you have any specific questions or you get stuck, feel free to ask; although considering how slow the thread is, you might want to check out the wiki first, its very detailed and has even some more obscure information.
>>
>>200925
>game
>easy
No.
>>
>>193003
I had that feeling that fighting breaks down long before you reach 255 units - maybe too many things - but it seemed like ranged projectiles wouldn't spawn anymore.
>>
>>200833
It's very amusing to see them freeze prisoners.
Pity spoders are so weak and slow to train. And they barely use Hailstorm when they get it.
>>
>>203385
Beasts feel underused overall. WtfO somewhat remedied that but then they are just cannon fodder in there.
>>
>>203397
Demon spawn are OK early on, and hellhounds see occasional use as scouts, but yeah, humanoid minions tend to be better overall.
>>
>>203402
>hellhounds
Don't forget them helping with corpse decomposition.
>>
>>203404
Yeah, forgot about their use in the vampire factory.
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I'm finally done replaying the Deeper Dungeons and I must say that it really scratches the itch left after the original DK, which ends just when it starts introducing the big boi maps. The campaign should've been 30, or at the very least 25 levels long.
>>
>>203397
As it should be. If beasts were as good as intelligent minions, then why even have sentient minions at all?
Through I admit I love the idea of cultists just reading books 16/7 and unleashing whatever clickecking horrors they have whenever someone comes near.
>>
>>157659
what's the best DK clone to play? Why is DK2 soulles shit?
>>
>>205652
EA got involved hard, that's why.
>>
>>205652
War for the Overworld is the only serious competition. And even so, it's very linear and straight-laced, what you get depends from your rooms, so if you have a 6x6, you get 2 creatures and that's it.
>>
>>205620
>If beasts were as good as intelligent minions, then why even have sentient minions at all?
Because both can be different kind of fun. Because the latter can speak.

>Through I admit I love the idea of cultists just reading books 16/7 and unleashing whatever clickecking horrors they have whenever someone comes near.
And here, you even came up with a great use for beasts yourself.

Beasts don't need to be on par in terms of power 1 on 1, even.
>>
>>159734
THIS DOESN'T EXIST!!!
>>
>>206600
You want to know the worst part? I kind of like the song, https://youtu.be/-A3qCIrTolo
>>
>>206575
Then what? Add more beasts? Or add interactions between beasts and minions?
>Thor McBlood has adopted Sarah, the Giant Spider!
>>
>>206887
More beast evolution, for one. This somewhat contradicts the no need to be on par but there can be monstrous humanoids, for example. Plus they don't need to all evolve that far, can be just one into a somewhat stronger creature type that's still overall weaker to most or all humanoids.

>Or add interactions between beasts and minions?
I like this too.
>>
>>206887
>>206897
>can be just once
ffix
>>
>>206897
>small spider evolves into big spider
>can evolve into sentient drider if big spider reaches level 11
That might be actually fun.
>>
>>206901
>>can evolve into sentient drider if big spider reaches level 11
Romanceable spidergirls in DK3.
>>
>>206908
Please no. Also, evolution needs to be really slow, so that there's no snowballing as all your chaff suddenly turns into mass killers.
>>
>>206915
>Mistress is one of the most iconic creatures of the setting
>sexy spider bad
But I get the desire to avoid shifting the focus from gameplay to ogling pretty feminine things.

>Also, evolution needs to be really slow, so that there's no snowballing as all your chaff suddenly turns into mass killers.
Demons in DK1 work pretty well. Getting a bunch of high level dragons if you start with a bunch of level 1 Demons is long and expensive.
>>
>>206921
It might be balanced for creatures by the fact that they can't train. In WftO, they can't train at all.
>>
>>206922
DK2 did it better with Arena, IMO. But maybe there's a middle ground where you need intelligent minions to train beasts? The level cap can stay as well, making sure beasts would need at least some hands-on experience to go past the threshold.
>>
>>206928
Oh, you misunderstand.
There's still the fighting pit in WftO, and you can have fights yourself, but it also attracts the beastmaster who can organize fights for you. It distracts everyone and give XP.
And if you throw a prisoner in there, he/she will get "executed", which amuse people and gives a decent XP boost to the thing who killed it. Not as good as torturing the prisoner to death and fusing his soul with a creature, but still nice.

What I meant is that beasts can't be trained in a training room.
>>
>>206932
I get that, and I did play WtfO. But I think pushing it further when certain minions can train one or more types of beasts to some level cap (4? or different for different person/beast combination even?) would be better.
>>
>>206938
To encourage synergy?
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>>206944
That too.
>>
OK. Boys.

I think DK successor should change a few things.

Introduction of new resource types, keep gold as your bread and butter but add more that support it rarer types.

What do you think?
>>
>>207153
>Introduction of new resource types, keep gold as your bread and butter but add more that support it rarer types.
How do you see those new ones being used?
>>
>>207186
>How do you see those new ones being used?
Well, You change the pricing system for rooms and spells.

For example how AOE2 does it's eco or to a lesser extend WC3.

Bread and Butter.
>>
>>207153
I don't think managing multiple resources is objectively more fun. Why don't RTS have 15 resources instead of 3 or 4? Apply that reasoning on a subtle scale. I've been playing Age of Empires definitive edition lately and it's just like "oh look I ran out of berry bushes, better fix that", oh look my woodcutters have run out of nearby trees, better fix that, oh look now I'm out of Gold, send villagers looking for more gold, same with Stone. When you finally get farms and they auto-seed themselves it feels like a massive relief; why is it so relieving? Because this part of the game sucks and it's probably a small reason why RTS have fallen out of mainstream popularity. A big strength of DK is that it did away with so many kinds of micro-managing, the "villagers" and the "multiple resources". Side note: when dark souls came along it was praised to high heavens for merging XP and gold into one resource. And in DK2 mana gathering is pretty automated so I don't have a big complaint there, mana's ok I guess.

If that makes me a brainlet then so be it!
>>
>>207236
Well, In AOE2 Wood and Food are your Bread and Butter.
>>
>>207328
What makes you think 2 resources is better than 1 or 3?
>>
>>207330
Oh, I certainly would add 4 or 3.

But i'd ensure that the player has options later on rather than running out of gold in the late game and watching as a level 10 creature murders your boys.
>>
>>207236
>Why don't RTS have 15 resources instead of 3 or 4?
Not him, but Stronghold technically does that, if you need an example. Granted, it's more of a city-builder/RTS mix than a real RTS, but Crusader 2 is a full RTS. And it's shit.
>>
>>207744
Well, I am him.

So. I've played stronghold series.

I wouldn't do that, I'd focus on small improvements not scrap what we've got and go full war for the overworld.

Creatures need a way to be maintain without gold, This system requires that creatures will become unhappy but not impossible to do assuming the player turns their dungeon into something devoted to this.

I imagine this would attract lessor creatures that have more basic needs?
>>
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>>207236
>when dark souls came along it was praised to high heavens for merging XP and gold into one resource
Kind of a disingenuous comparison. That whole game relies on souls being something that can be lost.
>>
>>207818
To be fair, what bothers me with War for the Overworld is how you can safely ignore a lot of rooms. It's perfectly possible to win without using the spirit chamber, for example.
It'd be nice if they added some need that require rooms that otherwise would see little use. Maybe not the torture room because it's expensive as hell, but maybe the spirit room, the prison, or whatever?
>>
>>207854
I've got an entire game design on that problem.

At the end, it's conclusion was builds.

Do you go for siege type build, or melee or even undead as the game already has that to some extent.

This just expanded it massively.

Although, it became less and less DK.
>>
>>207236
>it's probably a small reason why RTS have fallen out of mainstream popularity
RTS was never mainstream.
>>
>>207964
Starcraft is a likely candidate for the best-selling game of 1998.
>>
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>>157659
r8 my basement
>>
>>207909
...guess there's no answer, huh.


>>208025
J'aime pas. Les salles de tortures manquent de sang, de larmes et de vomis. Et c'est quoi cette horreur sans yeux à côté du magos?
>>
>>207975
And games weren't mainstream in general back then.
>>
>>208061
Retard
>>
>>208034
hidi po le hero arcaniste de l empire
elle a des yeux
cest une masque
>>
>>208171
C'est la nécromancienne?

>>208150
He has a point.
>>
>>208192
Mainstream for games. Duh. Are you ESL?
>>
>>207153
I always liked the way gold was the solution to almost everything in DK
You're a bunch of evil ragamuffins, gold is what keeps everyone together
I'd love to see DK1's creature relationships expanded further, it's a doggie dog world down there
>>
>>208410
>Your creatures are attacking eachother
I loved finding a gem vein and having all the time in the world to build a big sprawling dungeon where you can separate everyone into their own little private ethno-dungeons serviced by sanic fast imps.
>>
Anybody else felt bad destroying this place?
>>
>>208150
Brainlet
Don't make me explain why you're low IQ for bringing up old games.
>>
>>208566
They deserved it.
>>
>>208597
Just neck yourself already you subhuman faggot.
>>
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These are the cut monsters from DK1. How would you have implemented them, both art and gameplay wise?

The only hint for any of them is a cut narrator line saying "The Revenent has been Dispelled."
>>
>>209182
>perfidious yuck
Sounds like an unique.
>>
>>209206
My first assumption for it would be a slime, or a blob monsters like a shoggoth.
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>>209208
Because of the yuck, right?
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>>200807
>the most efficient dungeon would be one without any internal walls and just Guard Posts separating the rooms
Sounds horrible. Always hated missing even a single wall tile that wasn't an entrance, felt like having a window open during winter. The cramped missions where you had to build directly next to water or lava or in a wide open area were the worst. A comfy dungeon has walls everywhere. And some tunnels to break up the monotony of big unused spaces.
>>
>>209214
I once made a dungeon in WtfO that had no doors. Only teleporters all around.
>>
>>208624
Rich coming from the guy who thinks RTS was ever mainstream.
>>
>>207854
I disagree, giving the players flexibility is a godsend.
I hate the spirit chamber, it's way too easy to get max level monsters with it.
Also, giving players different benefits for what advanced rooms they go for first is essential to replay ability. Having every dungeon turn out too similar is boring.
>>
>>210160
>it's way too easy to get max level monsters with it
Well, still consumes an insane amount of gold and/or prisoners.
And my beef with WtfO is that it rewards making a lot of rooms, even if you don't use them. Crackpots and bitchdoctors are very good supports.
>>
>>206921
>Demons in DK1 work pretty well. Getting a bunch of high level dragons if you start with a bunch of level 1 Demons is long and expensive.
I've never been able to get this to work.

Is it a temple thing?
>>
>>211585
The transformation is locked until a certain mission. But starting with that mission your level 10 demons transform into level 3 dragons if I'm not mistaken on the specifics.
>>
>>211585
I think there is only one map in the original campaign - Moonbrush Wood - where you have uncapped demon spawns in the creature pool, but no dragons, so the feature has little use and is really easy to miss. And considering you have plenty of better creatures available in Moonbrush Wood, you're unlikely to actually keep any demon spawns that appear. Well, theoretically, there's also Mistle, but by the time you reach the training room, you're probably at the unit cap anyway. You also start Hearth with two demon spawns, but even if you don't bother kicking them out, I don't think there's enough time to train them into dragons.
>>
>>211636
It's possible to transfer a L10 into an eligible map. But it's true that unfortunately a high level mistress, a skeleton or even a warlock would be better. Or especially a vampire if it's already available.
>>
>>211751
Also almost every eligible map where you can transfer demon spawn to has dragons available in the pool (the only exception being Moonbrush Wood), and since their room requirements are super easy to meet, you don't actually gain anything over just attracting a dragon.
Speaking of dragons, they are a really sad unit, to be honest. They have this vibe of big, strong powerhouses, but since flame breath is borked, they seriously suck in melee (I just tested - level 5 dragon gets rekt by a level 4 monk), so until level 7 they have very little offensive power, and even then, just meteor alone isn't that much. They move very slowly, have huge lairs, eat more food than average, cost a lot of gold, their primary attack can't take prisoners. Their only good points are overpowered attack in possession and tankiness.
>>
>>211875
Didn't KeeperFX fix their bugged attacks?
>>
>>211880
I checked it in FX 0.4.8, so nope. That being said, it's very easy to fix, you just need to fiddle with .txt files a bit. I gave dragons a melee attack, tweaked stats of flame breath and removed the "can't take prisoners" flag, and now dragons fucking rock. A nice side effect was turning hell hounds into somewhat squishy, but fast and deadly interceptors.
>>
>>211908
>cheating
Yikes!
>>
>>211908
>I checked it in FX 0.4.8, so nope.
Darn. So if I don't want to rummage around the files, dragons will continue being slow expensive meatshields (since they don't use Grenade on their own, or even Word of Power).
>>
>>213380
Modding. I don't need to cheat, I've already beaten the original campaign, Deeper Dungeons, Ancient Keeper and several other campaigns with vanilla game data.
>>
>>213402
Word of Power is even useless unless you use FX.
>>
>>213436
Cheating. The scrub's way out.
>>
>>213453
From the description in the DK wiki, it seems like it's mostly fixed, except if you cast it with a flying unit, in which case it does no damage (due to the game not registering Z-axis changes and basically fizzling the damage box).
>>
>>213456
If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough.



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