https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/17/skulls-2023-returns-next-week-with-rahul-kohli-as-host/>There’s also some exciting news coming from Frontier Developments, and plenty more besides!>From investor reports, it's RTSWhat do you want? What do you expect? What do you fear?
>>1440181>What do you want?A flop>What do you expect?Mediocre gaem>What do you fear?A highly successful and popular game.
>>1440181>ShitmarI don't expect anything. The whole setting is on par with a generic Chinese MMONo game mechanics can redeem that
>>1440181>What do you want?a good 40k rts>What do you expect? a shit aos rts>What do you fear?this will never change
>>1440187>What do you fear?>A highly successful and popular gameWut? Why?
>>1440181Based, FEC ftw!their lore is so goddamn enjoyable
>>1440210I hate AOS.
>>1440229Why? It's because end time? Warhammer Fantasy?
>>144023099%+ of people who hate AOS are underage total war fans who never played fantasy or 90 year old no lifers who are mad they can't use their $50,000 tomb kings army anymore.
>>1440181>We are creating a great RTS for both PC and console players. No you're fucking not. Also fuck age of smegma.
>>1440232>90 year old no lifers who are mad they can't use their $50,000 tomb kings armybased
>>1440232>90 year old no lifers who are mad they can't use their $50,000 tomb kings army anymore.people still play fantasy over aos even in warhammer shops lmao
>>1440181>Age of Slopmar
>>1440188AoS Good 40k Bad by virtue of one being built to justify constant eternal fascist forever war among everyone and everyone is equally bad and awful (except Tau and Craftworlders but they don't get to do anything cool).And the other has a rich and storied history full of old grudges and alliances as the years have ground on. Old wars, ancient hunts for godbeasts, and through it all a current of hope in the fight against Chaos by all beings, not just the armies of Order. But even Order is allowed to be an actual faction and not a monolith. It has infighting and betrayals and wars for resources.
>>1440230Because it's the pinnacle of soullessness.It literally only exists because the megajews at GW decided they wanted to monetize every aspect of the IP and they couldn't do that with Oldhammer because so much of it was too generic. You can't copyright "Dwarves" or "Elves" after all, but you can copyright "Aelves" and "Duardin". And on top of that, they did it in the most hamfisted, poorly thought-out way possible, shitting all over the old lore and replacing with some of the most braindead, tone-deaf garbage ever imagined by mankind.
>>1440232>even zoomies can tell shitmar is shit. Not a very convincing argument, mate.
>>1440279No, that half-wrongThe best version of the Warhammer Fantasy was WFRPG 1st ed. When they were still really wanting to do more or less coherent setting to compete with D&D. Unfortunately later they completely butchered entire thing by abandoning RPG game, introducing more and more 40K analogue elements and most of all, butchering lore for the sake of selling more miniatures, which finally culminated in the unholy bloated mess of End Times. When the world was destroyed and WHFB officially scratched, a lot oldtimers were like "finally". It wasn't a good euthanasia, more like protracted inquisition torture session, but at least it's not suffering anymore.>>1440279>the most hamfisted, poorly thought-out way possible, shitting all over the old lore and replacing with some of the most braindead, tone-deaf garbage ever imagined by mankind.In reality, the lore quality has been high for years. It's tremendously interesting and improves upon a lot of the old fantasy characters. But lore "becomes good" when you actually put the effort into reading, understanding, and applying it to "your dudes," rather than as arbitrary "information."People will baby bird feed it to you for Warhammer Fantasy and especially 40k, but people who play AoS don't bother because there's no clout in it. So the perception continues.
>>1440267Imagin unironically defending a game system so bad it killed itself from unplayability
>>1440181>A great RTS experience for both PC and console players lol
>>1440271Roflmao beat me to it
>>1440306>I swear it's super good but only if you devote your life to it! I can't actually tell you why, you just have to replace your brain with GW propaganda and you'll see!sad little drone
>>1440229Same, with GW old=good new=bad can be taken at face value.>>1440277>one being built to justify constant eternal fascist forever>nu-tard getting high on his fumesOnly funsies matter
>In terms of the background and imagery I tried, along with the artists, other developers and miniatures designers of the time, to create as unique a Warhammer feel for the visuals as possible. But fundamentally Warhammer was just too close to its roots, in terms of Elves, dwarfs, historical armies and so on. It simply lacked the stand out characteristics of an original IP, so while its strength derived from the familiar and unique blend of influences it left the background open to outright imitation by other creators and manufacturers.>Leaving Warhammer as a viable alternative while AOS was being launched would have split the community even harder and in all likelihood would have killed AOS before it even began. Frankly, GW couldn’t afford to give people the luxury of sticking with the old system and background.https://gavthorpe.co.uk/2017/06/29/june-2017-qa-part-2/AoS is a shit setting because it is completely reliant on whfb backstory, for which it nor it's fans don't really care. Fans of AoS can't like Whfb because then they would be bound to hate AoS, which is a twisted mockery of Whfb, created out of hated End Times.Setting itself cannot escape Sigmar or Teclis, even though it's entirely built on shitting on whfb. It's forever chained to Warhammer fantasy and cannot develop in its own direction, because it's fundamentally based on something that it hates. It's a utterly nonsensical situation and would require complete retcon and overhaul of entire lore and backstory, down to changing the name of the game and world itself. They should have simply created third, completely unrelated to whfb and 40k, Warhammer setting to begin with and there would be no problem at all.It's also created solely by the suits, with no soul whatsoever, for the sake of copyright. And it's so obvious and blatant that it cannot be ignored and makes it impossible to care for it.Game will be shit shovelware most likely too and without setting to carry it, what's the point?
>>1440535>2017Outdated takeAoS is better nowBetter than Wfb
>>1440306>improves old fantasy charactersUntil they bring back any fucking Lizardmen besides Kroak, fuck off
>>1440230I hate 99% of the new models that aren't just an extension of old whf minis, I hate the fluff, I hate the circumstances of it's birth, I have a large dislike for the company behind it, I hate the rules, I hate the maps, and I hate the names they give everything.Lucky me, GW is also slowly killing off all the designs I like in 40k, so maybe I can take up another hobby, like nitting, or rape.
>>1440583The only good AoS thing is some exotic fanfic from an autist on /wsg/
>>1440181>What do you want?Just make it a Warcraft 3 clone>What do you expect?Trying something very different from building a base and recruit troops.>What do you fear?It's gonna be so mediocre that it will be forgotten or cancelled before it would become reality.
>>1440229My brother. Let us toast to the death of Age of Smegmar and the destruction of Games Workshart.
>>1440181want>nude patchexpect>"tasteful" nudityfears>only the choas spawn and treemen will be naked
>>1440181>old world>age of sigmar>"Gee Bill! How come GW lets WH Fantasy have 2 settings?">"They're both shit!"
>>1440230Cause it's gay and the lore is even gayer. As a game it's fine, better than 9th and 8th edition 40k but everything around age of shitmar is dogshit.
>>1440230AoS is DS2 of GW. Which means toddlers who learned about the series from Youtube videos years after the thing came out cry about it without even knowing things besides whatever points angry e-"celeb" made in 2015.Which is very ironic considering GW took some clear ispirations from Dark Souls when putting together Stormcast
>>1440181They want to strike gold like with DoW.DoW literally implanted Warhammer to entire generation of minds, because it turns out that not many people live inside cities with GW products, but a lot of people have PCs.Total Warhammer literally saved Fantasy.They are deluded that a new game will make Age of Shit popular.
>>1440817Who's they? GW is on record warry of vidya adaptations of their stuff because they see it as a potential substitute to their much more profitable models
>>1440181>We have exclusive rights to the Warhammer Age of Sigmar brandTotal War:AoS deconfirmedTotal War:40k confirmed
>>1440843LotR licence is whoreing itself out ever since Christopher died. They'll make that
>>1440836Yet they continue to license them every year.They just make sure you can't play as all factions.
>>1440845Lotr is dead and licensing it is a cancer. CA has perfect deal with GW and Warhammer essentially saved them after Rome2. Since Hyenas will bomb they will need a guaranteed, stable source of income. 40k is bigger than whfb and steadily rising in popularity. All other popular big settings, including capeshit, are dead and ruined and Hollywood needs more flesh to feed upon. Cavill movies and shows will catapulte it into normalfag sphere. It's the next big thing. I give it 10 years and there will be kids walking with Guilliman and Abbadon on t-shirts everywhere. If CA is smart they will stick with GW.
>>144076440k has 40k and HH.
>>1440817space marine was better at bringing the ip exposure. DoW was pcmasterracespace marine was on all consoles.
theres tons of ips waiting to be resurrected.
>>1440859Ok, name 4 starting factions for total war 40k
>>1440913Have it take place on Armagedon and surrounding systemFactions would be:Imperial GuardSpace MarinesOrcsChaos Space Marines
>>1440800>better than 9th and 8th edition 40kTo be fair uts kind of hard to be worse than those and 40k lore has gotten progressively worse over the years too.>>1440871Which are both also shit.
>>1440232Mothefucker, have you seen AoS designs? Or it horrible worldbuilding? AoS looks really bad, even now when GW managed to get their shit together.
>>1440181>RTS made with console in mindDead in the womb.
>>1440310why is it unplayable?
>>1441295Two most common complains were cost and time. If you wanted to start it was way too expensive and if you already had models you hardly had time to play a game. Stuff like usual GW garbadge balance between factions and game mechanics didn't help.
>>1440306Re-do the fucking WHFB then and not make everyone live on a fucking basketball hoop floating through space.
>>1441181Out of curiosity, what is even going on in those books you shill so hard?I might be misunderstanding things but isn't AoS supposed to be this big infinite war between Order and Chaos and whatever? Aren't Sigmarines supposed to be resurrected people that Sigmar just shits out whenever he feels like it? If that's the case, what are the stakes even? Writing compelling stories about dudes in gold and blue armor fighting dudes in red and gold armor is pretty hard even when it's 40k but 40k at least has stories about normal people who sometimes happen to have undergone extensive surgery and genetic fuckery so they can wear huge ass armor and beat up anyone who threatens people who didn't go through said surgery and genetic fuckery. There's stakes, there's hopes and dreams and there's a lot of potential since you can write pretty much any story you want with 40k as a backdrop.You can't just write just any story about what is essentially a logical conclusion of the phrase "There's Only War".
>>1441432>I might be misunderstanding thingsYou somehow believe that 1 battle box from 8 years ago is the only thing that happened in 8 years so i guess it is "misunderstanding". Mirror take would be saying 40k is space marines fighting incoming waves of tyranids forever and nothing else exists
>>1441109Question is, did you? Or are you basing all your knowledge of the setting on first edition memes?
Really depends on how it plays. If they try to copy DoW, sc or wc3 it will be shit. AoE iffy. LOTRs it will be a master peice.
I know nothing of WH fantasy. What makes aos so bad other than the not space mariens faction? Did it make all the other civs/factions not canon anymore?
>>1441522Ultimtly it's becuse it uses real world as a secondary/tetriary inspiration for stuff instead of being an obvious real world caricature plus it uses elements of mythology instead of just history. That's the real main difference.
>>1441522Cogfop dwarfs and blind fish elves are the worst looking new factions.The Magma Dwarves are all the same fucking model repeated or mirrored. Slayers from WHF but worse. Easily the worst looking faction.Witch Elves/Daughters of Khaine, Night Goblins (fuck you, I am not using that name), Sylvaneth, and ghouls are just parts of old WHF armies riped out and made a standalone army, they are OK, but were better when a part of their WHF counterparts. The ghouls are nuts and think they are pretty much Bretonnians, and sylvaneth are the walking trees part of the old wood elfs.Illumineth Roomlords are a mixture of a kinda cool psuedo greek high elf aestetic, and stupid fucking cow-fetichism and three stringed bows bullshit.Nighthaunt are just a fuck load of ghosts and "hey liberals" grim reapers, mostly cool miniatures, probably the best AOS line, will proxy in whf.Bonerreapers are AOS's answer to 40k's Wolfs wolfing wolfs wolfs, but with skeleton armoured skeltons with skeleton outgrowths, out to collect skeleton tithe to make more skeleton men and skeleton buildings. 8th edition Nagash's look as an army.Soulblight gaylords are discount vampire counts where all the vampires are either furries, or heads taller than regular people.Skaven and Chaos are Skaven and Chaos. Chaos got some new models. Hard to fuck up chaos to be honest.Cities of Sigmar; where WHF's order factions' remains got shoved, they are replacing the old Empire dudes with some ugly new models.Orruk whatever the fuck is where the WHF savage orcs, Black orcs, the giganiggorcs, and James Workshops' swamp orcs live. No you don't get the cool old Orc Boys.Ogor mawtribes is WHF Ogres and Gnoblars, but with cavalery.Sons of Be-he-math? are the giants of WHF, but as a faction. Gianter giants have been added for your "I want Imperial Titans in my warhammer fantasy pleasure".Lizardmen or Seraphon Sepia also exist.Oh yeah, and beastmen still exist for some reason.
>>1441599Bro you haven't recieved the updated hivemind opinions yet? Votann is the new new thing now so we like Kharadron because they're now the old new thing. Fucking newfag 4channelers baka
>>1441610I am not a 'nid player, so what the hivemind thinks is of no importance to me. Faggot.
>>1440181No Nagash, no buying.
>>1440181Good rts gameMen of War styleBad AoS rts gamesAlso WHFB was boring, and I'm tired of pretending it isn't.Only skaven, chorf and lizardmen are expection
>>1441481Well you didn't do anything to show me I'm wrong. So let me repeat, what can be interesting story-wise about what is essentially Valhalla but with different flavour of icecream? As designed AoS is battle sandbox to achieve the most gameplay freedom which doesn't translate well into interesting storylines.Setting aside Blue Medieval Marines vs Red Medieval Marines, I am aware it still has Or(ru)ks (this time trademark friendly!), Skaven (this time we're a real Chaos Faction!) and everything but Slannesh (it wasn't PG13 friendly), but it is essentially reduced to faceless mooks duking it out against other faceless mooks. Sure, it's about Your Guys but if the only lore-friendly choice is faceless mooks Your Guys are boring as fuck too.
>>1442010Slaanesh is in game again. After Ceo change plans to get rid off him were stopped in 40k too, which is why Ynnari lost a purpose, got btfo by random death watch and their book series canceled. 40k End Times stopped halfway through as well
>>1440223wait, is this what happened to them in smegma?
>>1442034Yeh, Ushoran went insane and now he's the Pyro form TF2
>>1440181>ConsoleThis gonna be halo wars>>1441115>>1440317Yes, picrel
>>1441409Realm is objectively superiorLike norse mythology
>>1442010Weird history of allience between humas and greenskins and main orruk guy's attempts at resoting it on his terms is way more interesting that background NPC greenskins of other WH settings.Or stuff like escalation of Archaon-Belakor competition over the Everchosen title.Even Khul and Vandus from the middle of >>1441432 contrasting their in-univers legacies to the sorry state they ended up in has pottential if GW gives them rademption arcs to once again live up to their own legends.
>>1442014I don't even hate the 40k End Times, I just think some of it's parts (Primaris and everything involving Primaris) are utterly retarded and sour the whole experience. Like shit, minor plot advancement like Cadia blowing up is okay, but the Hell's Buttcrack going through the entire Galaxy is kinda lame.
>>1442051wtf does games workshop do to a nigger to make them like this?
>>1442051>Weird history of allience between humas and greenskins and main orruk guy's attempts at resoting it on his terms is way more interesting that background NPC greenskins of other WH settings.Warcraft is that way. Jokes aside I'm pretty sure there have been truces and fighting common enemies in WHFB and even some mercenaries. The issue with greenskins is that they live in dog eat dog societies and thus there's very little in the way of relationships other than slave and master, which is why it's somewhat interesting when they happen.
>>1442159Because AoS is not grimdark
>>1442691>picrel>HOMM style game
>>1442691Warmahordes were such a weird footnote, they got really popular at some point like ten years ago and nowadays barely anyone remembers it was a thing.
>>1442801Every time someone complains about Age of Smegma or nu-40k or general GW shenanigans I point at what PP did to Warmachine and say "It could have been worse. It could have been SO MUCH WORSE."
I feel like more people would like modern AOS if it wasn't written like total dog shit. There's maybe two good stories, one being Realmslayer and the other being Path to Glory. Its a setting where golden super warriors and armies of mortals fight the forces of evil across giant super walls and trade realms between Chaos and themselves for eternity. There are giant monsters everywhere and "Countless" little kingdoms and Empires on both sides, you would think that this would spark someone's imagination.
>>1440181>for both PC and console playersInto the trash it goes
>>1442801i wonder if pp tanked their new edition , and all the talent went on to make age of sigmar. dont they play really similarly?
>>1442822gw doesnt like you using your imagination for their own ip.
>>1442822I feel like more people would like modern AOS if it didnt kill beloved old world setting. Didnt include literal ground marines etc
>>1442043>>1442847Halo wars is a proof rts can be played on console too
>>1442860command and conquer, starcraft and warzone 21xx all had ports to consoles before halo wars. kingdom under fire crusaders was a good xbox title.
>>1442860halo wars is proof you can have a cut down casualised rts made directly for gamepads. it does not prove that you can have a good rts that is designed for both computer and consoles simultaneously.
>>1441409That’s not the whole setting, that’s a giant meteor being harvested by Sigmar
>>1442854They play nothing alike
>>1442973that's some pretty cool 40k lore. I hope there's space marines too.
>>1442978I love YouTubers too!
>>1440181>Age of BasedmarYawn
>>1442859Wfb would have been axed anyway after almost a decade of not selling anything. Only other timeline is the one where 40k is the only GW game
>>1441409Why /v/ & /vst/ againt realms?There’s a looseness to AoS lore that makes it perfect for a war game. In the old world, stuff was fairly entrenched. Factions lived where they lived and did what they did and that’s great narratively, but not if you want to really go all in on homebrewing your lore like 40k and AoS let you. The world was big, but it was well mapped, there wasn’t a ton of wiggle room in it.Realms are better than big world map
>>1440229>>1440187Lmao nigga get over it already. It’s been close to a decade now. Chill.
>>1443215gw being so protective of their ip. means they should have given us more polished refined than something that could be just a homebrew fanfic. id violate ip laws with this peice of shit setting just on principal.
>>1443220why is it always you "people" shilling crap
>>1443220Fuck you, I play dwarfs, it is entierly in character to hold on to grudges.
>>1440181>Tzeentch vs KruelboyzHe's in!
>>1440920Now explain why space marines and imperial guard would fight each other this time
>>1441599Fuck you, fish elves are great
>>1443606Administratum made an error at the highest level. The Guard was ordered to kill Chaos and Marines instead of Chaos Marines, and the Sacred Imperial Seal doesn't lie.
>>1440535Lot of Fantasy fan that hated the End Time understand that AoS isn't at fault
>>1443215Realms are dogshit specifically because they're not entrenched. They're so vague you can't even find enough lore to poke holes in. The joy of homebrewing is inserting something you've made into a pre-existing world, the tighter the world - the more satisfying the result. If you can't do that, that seems like a (You) problemPlus, it's hard to make people care when the lore that exists is written like shit. Everything in AOS reads like something out of a bad Saturday Morning Cartoon:> Here's a realm of Amethyst Piss > There's a grand city of Gemville. All houses in it are made of blue gems.> In it lives prince Jamie The Awesome.> He battled EvilFace the Terrifying in the War of Epic Destructive Awesome Deadly Armageddon for 170 centuries and won.and I'm barely exaggerating
>>1443819The amount of people coming out of the wood works to defend Fantasy does show that it was well loved by people. Personally Fantasy had the best world out of all 3 settings. It was gritty and was the perfect blend of gritty realism mixed with fantasy elements one could get. Fantasy is my favorite Warhammer setting.
>>1443845Or its people who played Total War Warhammer.The books sold like shit compared to 40k and the models didnt move.The rules since 5th were shit (not that herohammer 5th was that great)The live events were comically bad, I think Shadows over Albion was the only one that wasn't dogshit.I recall attending warhammer worlds and having a hard time even trying to get a pickup game of fantasy since everyone was there for 40k.Beloved isnt a term I would call Fantasy.
>>1443215Realms are dumb because that shit is infinite in expanse so wars being fought on them don't fucking matter. Sigmar made the realms and he's still around. Delete the invaded realms and make new ones, move all the endangered souls to safer places. The setting is fought with gods directly being involved instead of these nebulous horrors from beyond space and time, it completely kills what's at stake for me. The lore is so fucking dumb, it's so fucking dumb. I was in college when the game was killed and I had several friends that had large armies that were incredibly pissed off at the news. I saw this from the outside as a 40k player but it made me wary as fuck to all the new shit GW has pulled since then.
>>1444046>so wars being fought on them don't fucking matterJust like every warhammer event>AND THEN THE ORCS HEADBUTTED CHAOS AND WENT HOME
>>1444083>Just like every warhammer eventOfficial storyfagging and global campaigns and what-not is exactly what killed Warhammer (both Fantasy and 40k) in the first place
>>1444046>Realms are dumb because that shit is infinite in expanse so wars being fought on them don't fucking matter. Sigmar made the realms and he's still around. Delete the invaded realms and make new ones,Literally all of this is wrong. Do you just make shit up or is soneone actuvely lieing to you?
>>1443606You dont. They start allied, but you can break alliances
>>1440181>What do you wantMostly just something that actually resembles the tabbletop game.>What do you expectGeneric RTS.>What do you fearBad campaign.
>>1440913Space MarinesEldarOrks Chaos Space MarinesFirst DLC can be Imperial Guard. Who are a minor unplayable faction in the base game.
>>1444046>Realms are dumb because that shit is infinite in expanse so wars being fought on them don't fucking matterThey are as infinite as space is in 40K. And people have no issue with either inserting their own custom factions in it or caring about the stakes.
>>1443845I liked fantasy as well, but I can't fault them for killing it off since it was pretty hard to come up with new shit. Granted, most AOS factions released so far COULD probably work in fantasy.
>>1443606In game? Most factions would be presented as individual planets. Like Ultramarines would be a faction, Cadia would be a faction, Salamanders would be a faction, etc. While it should be unlikely, if not punished, for them to go to war it could still happen for any number of reasons.
>>1444427They're much smaller than that. Even if we take into account the largest one is 3 times the size of regular Earth that would still add up to like 3 Solar systems total (that don't even have a sun that provides most of solar system's mass and "area")
>>1443215Partly just because it's very much the exact opposite of fantasy. Fantasy was quasi historical, AoS was quasi mythological. I like both for their own merit, and I do think discontinuing fantasy altogether was a mistake, but I can understand why a lot of people don't like a focus on realms. First edition did not help, at all.
>>1444437I know. That's why I think the argument is mostly nonsense. Part of the reason why 40K is as popular as it is is because the setting is stupidly massive.
>>1440267No one plays in warhammer shops to begin with.
>>1441109AOS has really good models, way better than 40k.
You know what, I'm bored since my headphone is charging. Might as well go all the way with my idea for Warhammer 40K Total War.Space Marines: All rounder's capable of switching their equipment before every battle to make sure they can properly fight whatever enemy they do. Are also expected to respond to Crusades called by Holy Terra, and have a special recruitment mechanic where your cap of space marines is determined by how many recruiting worlds you have. Starting LL: Marneus Calgar. Vulkan He'stan.Eldar: Unable to conquer new planets. Instead travel around on Craftworlds. Victory condition involves wiping out key factions. Combat wise they are highly specialized and fast. Other faction mechanics includes protecting and gathering soul stones, as well as some kind of system to cap aspect warriors (If you can't tell, one of my main goals for each faction is to have some kind of mechanical limit on elite infantry). Starting LL: Eldrad. Prince Yriel.Orks: Horde army. Mechanics would be similar to the Greenskins in WHTW, with the added addition of something similar to the recruitment the Warriors of Chaos have to cap how many Nobz you can field. Starting LL: Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka. Nazdreg Ug Urdgrub. Chaos Space Marines: Similar to Space Marines, but with less equipment and more demons. Gameplay is way more aggressive and less defensive than Space Marines. As the only way to increase your Space Marine unit cap is to steal gene seed from loyalist legions and corrupt loyalist space marines. Also get the option to align yourself with one of the Chaos Gods and turn your lords into Daemon Princes. Starting LL: Abbadon. Lorgar.
>>1444453My name is No One?
>>1444464First DLC can be Imperial Guard. Low Tier Guardsmen units are usable for Space Marines (Chaos Space Marines gets cultist units instead). As a stand alone faction they specialize in raw numbers and strong vehicles. Faction mechanics can be pretty varied depending on the specific planet, but on average they would involve your relationship with the central government. Starting LL: Creed. Yardrick. Other DLC factions that might work for a first game: Lost and the Damned. Chaos Daemons. MABYE Necrons (I feel those could carry a game on their own.)
>>1440181Nice, hope this stop Warhammer Fantasy Bias, resulting in a lot of people refusing to move over.
>>1443851TL;DR Fantasy was beloved but GW was lazy.While TTW did bring in a massive new fanbase to the fantasy series that was about a year and a half after the final end time s book was released. >it sold like shit and no one played itYou are 100% correct here, 8th edition is notoriously complex and almost everyone agrees that it is needlessly complicated. If I remember correctly almost half of the games rules were about the movement phase of the game not the actual combat which should be the focus of a war game. If you also take into account that that the game was balanced around 2000 points and how the game was made for regiment play then you come to realize that Fantasy was even more expensive then 40k. Finally Fantasy also suffered from the fact that new unit models/ranges were extremely rare. If you mixed in the fact that there were less lore events for fantasy then it makes sense that sales for the game died down.Even with this I still insist that Fantasy was a beloved game. When end game launched it saw a fairly big spike up in sales, mostly because the new unit kits that came out during ET were really good. Forums were filled with older players saying how excited they were to see updates for Fantasy while newer players coming in due to the new models. Hell, the amount of players that came out in support of Fantasy when it was announced over was extremely surprising. A lot of people came out spouting how Fantasy is what got them into wargaming and they did not agree with GWs response that it was because of sells. The reality is that GW just didn't market the game right and were lazy with new sculpts/models. I want to profess that I do play AOS as a gits player. The I used to hate the new trolls but they have grown on me. I don't hate AoS but I do think that Fantasy could have grown if GW wasn't such a fuck up. Since it is coming back shows that there is a big enough market for it.
>>1444799>suffered from the fact that new unit models/ranges were extremely rareHalf a dozen every 3 months doesn't seam fucking rare
>>1444910Most of the large releases there arer efreshes of existing factions, and even then, most of it is Chaos/Skaven/Dark Elf.There were no real new factions there, nor did they bring back Chaos Dwarfs outside of Forge World, Kislev was not really a thing, Dogs Of War was ignored for the most part. It was mostly new special characters, one new centerpiece unit. Also notice how Tomb Kings got new Tomb Guard, but still used skeletons from back when Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts were the same faction? Why would anyone rebuy their existing armies for new sculpts, when the old ones were most of the time up to par, or in the Dwarfs' case, were better? Don't forget that you had to buy more of the same kit several times due to unit size bloat, and GW even back then adjusted for inflation 10 years ahead of time.Meanwhile what 40k has done to drive sales after WHF perished: Introduced Spacier Space Marines, released dedicated kits for 1kSons, brought Death guard out of finecast hell, given the world eaters more units other than berserkers, brought back Squats and Genestealer cults.How many factions does AOS now have? 20?WHF introduced Ogre Kingdoms at about the same time as the Tau, but after then? No new factions/ranges. You get some special event limited factions where most of them were existing units with a special character, but that is it. No range for Vampire Coast, no range for Kemmler's army/Borrow Kings, no Hobgoblin khanate, no full Kislev, Ulricians had barely anything, no Araby, Chaos Dwarfs stuck in FW hell or as a support unit for Chaos Warriors. They could have made litterally the same kinds of upgrade sprues/boxes as the Genestealer Cults, Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marines have today, to convert other factions into Morathi's Cult of Pleasure, Cathay, Ind, Border Princes, or Nippon if they wanted a cheap and cheap on space way to get people to buy even more miniatures.GW wanted you to rebuy your armies, not give you new alternatives.
>>1440181Will they actually make horrors split into smaller horrors?
>>1444799>8th edition is notoriously complexBro 6th and 7th sold like shit too.Fantasy had AWFUL rules which just sort of pushed making huge blobs of core units which made the game prohibitively expensive.And as much as its a meme having a space marine faction is really important
>>14455386th is the one peope still sort of liked, but the train went of the rails in 7th. 8th just focused on money milking whales after 7th sold like shit and they had to do something to get $
>>14455496th-7th is weird since they are 99% the same.But tail end of 6th is when armies started getting fucking retarded.Always Strikes First High Elves was the final nail in the coffin
>>1443738>that AoS isn't at faultIt's directly at fault. End Times was an excuse to get rid off Fantasy in order to make AoS. Sigmarines were meant to be added to WHFB, but GW felt that WHFB is too limited and new additions like this wouldn't fit. So they decided to make a new, more expansive fantasy setting. Unfortunately they needed a way to transfer at least some Whfb players into this new setting so AoS is a sequel instead of a completely separate setting.
>>1445624Imagin running a bussiness and one of your core products was actively losing money year after year. Would you let it continue existing and draining money?
>>1445633How about you figure out why one of your major products stopped selling, instead of just discontinuing it and releasing your customers to your competitors?
>>1445637That's what they did. They changed the product to adress pottential causes.
>>1445624If AoS didn't exist fantasy wouldnt have lived.It would have been squatted and ignored like man of war.AoS also doesn't exist just because of sigmarites, its complicated. Feels like I should just save this as a pasta since I write it every other year or soFantasy died for 3 reasons GW claimed, and 1 reason they didn't. It was likely a combination of everything.>It sold like shitThis is ultimately the biggest and most complex. The rules were never really good and the game was batshit expensive. I can get into these but to revamp everything would require remaking every single army book at the same time on a new edition, and thats a whole new game anyway.>There wasn't a newfag armyThis sort of goes with the top but yes its Sigmarites. Space Marines are popular because they are a good newfag army.Elite so low amount of models to buy, big and armored so easy to put together and paint, and they are the """good""" guys.Fantasy didn't have an equivalent, the closest was amusingly Chaos Warriors but they certainly weren't the good guys.>The setting was dogshit to writeThis ones somewhat minor but its one of the reasons GW listed.They flat out couldnt do events people liked.You cant do big important events because Chaos cant ever win.You cant do big involved events because how the fuck do you include Lizardmen, Elves, Dwarves, and Empire all at the same time. So the big events were the dumbest shit>CHAOS INVADES THE EMPIRE, SKAVEN INVADE LIZARDMEN, DARK ELVES INVADE HIGH ELVESThey tried doing small low stakes event (Shadows over Albion) while I really liked it people fucking hated it because low stakes.>Copyright (the reason they didnt list)Turns out you cant copyright common ass terms like Empire, Dwarves, High Elves, Lizardmen, etc.AOS releasing in its dogshit state is an funny story (designers made one minor meme rule and some middle manager overracted to positive feedback, went full retard)
>>1445644lel, no they didn't. They hit the delete button and launched a line of what the CEO thought would be collectors miniatures with tacked on minimalist rules, instead of a rank and flank wargame.
>>1445538I believe that helps my argument more so... Thanks?>>1444910 Where did you get that? I would like to see it compared to 40k releases because back in the early 10s and beyond GW was very conservative when it came to their TT games. This was when editions were decades old.>>1445647>The setting was dogshit to write.While GW might've listed that I think everyone can agree that GW doesn't give a shit about its set lore. I mean just look at Storm of Chaos. Personally I think the reason that GW killed Fantasy for AOS is specifically for the sigmarines as well as to get away from rank and file wargaming. I think that GW pin pointed the biggest problem for fantasy was that it was really hard for them to create decent rank and file rules that were both fun as well as easy to pick up. I also wouldn't be surprised if people were just saying that they wanted fantasy 40k gameplay either. They probably thought that they would get more backlash if they kept the fantasy title attached to the game instead of just creating a brand new title altogether.
>>1445858Also they wanted to copy right AOS instead of Fantasy of course.
>>1445729Their product is miniatures, not games. Deleting a ruleset doesn't metter if it's part of the strategy to sell models.
>>1446018>Their product is miniatures, not games.Surprisingly, the majority of their (old) customers disagreed.
>>1446018>>1446042their product is intellectual property. gw has seen the writing on the wall with 3d printing. you can make arguments all you want about fantasy not selling but the real reason was that it was too generic to copyright.
>>1446042Models need a game system to be useful, just like they need paints, but GW is hardly selling a specific game system. You can use the models for whatever game, just like you can paint with whatever paints. They took the same models and compleatly changed the gameplay and it improved sales. Side game models from unrelated board games get ported over all the time now just to re-sell them. When you ask people about chosing an army they'll often tell you "rules are temporary, but models are forever"
>>1440181>for both PC and console players>console playersAlready ruined.Nothing good ever comes from consoles.
>>1446100Yeah, people seems forget AoS went hard to norse mythologyAnd stormcast inspired by einherjar and Valkyrie
>>1443220ZOGmar shills not welcome here
>>1446018They make Sci-fi and Fantasy miniatures for their IPs, not ECW/WW2/Roses/Italian Wars/ACW/Generic Fantasy or Medieval. They need their own games to justify you buying their knights and their minotaurs instead of from their competitors.Other companies that don't have rules for their miniatures make historicals or generic d&d fantasy miniatures. If you make highly personalized fantasy figurines that don't fit into those two categories, then you are better off selling your stuff on etsy/MMF as print on demand or .stlsThere is not one company even close to GW's size, or Northstar/Mantic/Perry/etc size for that matter, that make miniatures without either having rules, or making historicals/generic d&d fodder.
>>1440230The amount of vitriol and hate directed at AoS by people who >Didn't play WHFB >Didn't play AoS>Were introduced to the settings shortly after the End Times when player enthusiasm was at an all time low.>Total war: warhammer
>>1446088Believe the plan
>>1448004What is your point?
>>1445647The only real reason is at the end of your post.Copyright was the only reason Fantasy changed, just like 40k went into Primaris shit.Nobody bought fantasy, because they didn't even make new figures, just more books.Setting was shit to write because they have shit writers, as nu-Fantasy and nu-40k shows.
>>1449161>ecause they didn't even make new figuresBro>>1444910
Trailer is hereIt's called "Warhammer Age of Sigmar: Realms of Ruin"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXW7h2hC8_4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y4GzIgMmRQhttps://store.steampowered.com/app/1844380/
>>1449368>>1449367>>1449366preordered as soon as avaliable, looks kino
>>1449366>>1449367>>1449368https://www.aosrealmsofruin.com/4 faction! (Stormcast, kruleboyz, and 2 locked It looks like Halo wars or Dawn of war 2 given the limited gameplay preview
>>1449411We know 1 is Tzeentch. 4th is probably Nighthaunt since the game started development in 2e, but it might be Ossiarchs if it was late enough
>>1449411>Dominion shilling years laterIt's not going to sell, give up GW
>>1449427Most of the Stormcast units shown are way older than this box and KB literally didn't exist before it.
>>1440230>Empire are now gay space marines that have diversity quotas>realms>all minis are over designed as fuckIt's shit
>>1449562>>Empire are now gay space marines that have diversity quotasThey never stped selling over half the Empire range, you can go buy karl Franz right now, but you never bothered to check and just cry about losing shit you never had or wanted>>realmsthing bad cause bad
>>1449579>thing bad cause badThings bad because they ruin any stakes or sense of scale/location. Makes it all blend together into a boring suit.
>>1440181>RTS>for consoleRTS for consoleIT WILL BE SHIT
>>1449591Let me guess, you think they're infinite and assume people can just move at any time? God argueing with retards who live in different reality is tiersom
>>1440811>AoS is DS2 of GWWhat's wrong with Disciples 2??????
>>1449591Better to have a lot of space and locations to play with where stuff can actually happen and lines can shift rather than already knowing that whenever a named place in fantasy is involved nothing is gonna fucking happen at all. They took this to extremes by even allowing the rebuilding of Praag after it was conquered and corrupted by chaos. Too many known locations, too many named characters, too much stagnation. Oh wow, Malekith and Morathi are invading Ulthuan again? I'm sure this will be the time they actually achieve something! What's that? Undead marching against the Empire? Biting my nails in suspense here! Oh no, the Orcs are attacking a Dwarf Karak! Certainly Thorgrim being there is at risk!The few stories that were worth reading were the ones where the stakes weren't artificially inflated because the scale was so small you didn't need anything big to happen, like in the brunner books.
>>1449600No, I think there geography makes no sense and that the fact that more than half the cast are just reborn Warhammer Fantasy characters means there's no stakes to even the world ending.>>1449620You can fix stagnation. GW just chose not to.Meanwhile Age of Sigmar has no stakes and even its biggest tabletop fans do not give a shit about the lore because its all a bland mess (cool models though).
>>1449625>half the cast are just reborn Warhammer Fantasy characters means there's no stakes to even the world endingJust because WFB ending was a wet fart doens't mean all future endings will be idenitcal. Fuck from exisitng set up alone GW can just kill off Sigmar and have Archaon take over as the main good guy
>>1440181Fantasy sisters...40k chuds... our response?
>>1449562>Empire are now gay space marines that have diversity quotasEmpire still exist but as Cities of sigmar now
>>1449680Bro look at how fucking gay that isDo you have eyes?
>>1449155get over it. It's like complaining about an ex after 5 years of not seeing them. Being salty bring nothing new.
>>1449640Holy shit. You just proved my point you fucking shitmar baby LOLIf the fucking big bad can become the main hero so easily it's a shit setting. Literally no stakes.
>>1449726Lore having pay offs and change occuring is what creates stakes in a story. Permanent status quo where nothing can change is what removes them. If every lore event ends with grimgor kicking main bad guy in the nuts and everyone locking themselvs back in their cuck sheds after achieving nothing, what stakes are there?
>>1449735>Sir fagalot, his grandpa and a not-spacemarine>>elaborate
>>1449754If the end of the world is confirmed to happen (Yes, the confirmed that the AoS world will end one day too) and everyone is just reborn again then what does it matter? If you die you'll just respawn.Warhammer Fantasy's problems were bad GW management. AoS's problems are inherent to the setting and lore. There's a reason no one gives a shit even after selling like hot cakes.
>>1449773What nonsens are you getting made at? What reborn again? Just because it happemed in End Times doesn't magically make every possible story end the same way
>>1449161>>1445647People either don't remember or don't realize what an absolute mess Games Workshop was in during the late 2000s/early 2010s. Sales were way down, and they were forced to close many retail stores. They weren't even publishing White Dwarf at all. WFB releases were down to one or two a year, and they just released them with zero marketing. There were few Warhammer video games. Even 40K was stagnating.Then GW got a new CEO and new leadership. They took one look at the sorry state of the company and immediately made sweeping changes, one of which was initiating the End Times and creating a new fantasy game (AoS). Looking back, it probably saved the company.Warhammer Total War is a very well made love letter to 30 years of Old World lore and characters. It's no wonder it gets people hyped for old WFB. But they seem to have no understanding of how dead that IP was ten years ago.
>>1449779>it gets people hyped for old WFBThats going to be such a clusterfuck, look at them being washy on bases
>>1449775Check the lore dumbass. It's already canon that Chaos will destroy the world again. Why bother getting invested?
>>1449779>Looking back, it probably saved the company.better it had died
>>1449822>It's already canon that Chaos will destroy the world again.No it isn't? Why do you keep making shit up?
>>1449779>WFB releases were down to one or two a yearAnd here we go again >>1444910. People track that shit, you can't just make up a number because you felt like it
>>1449942Hmm didnt realize that, sorry. maybe not enough marketing.But my point still standNow, look at this one from 2015:https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32096/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-spring-2015Or this one from 2014:https://icv2.com/articles/games/view/30000/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-summer-2014The last time Warhammer Fantasy appeared in the top 5 sales was in the summer 2013 report:https://icv2.com/articles/games/view/27069/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-summer-2013Meanwhile AoShttps://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/41010/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-spring-2018https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/45370/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2019https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/47882/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-fall-2020once it reached the list back in 2018, AoS has been a constant presence among the top 5 in sales.
>>1449940You don't even know the lore you defend? That's sad and cringe.
Fluff aside, Sigmarines simply don't look cool. The Witcher Order would be cooler Ground Marines, they could copy them since they would well into WHFB with minor alternations or expand Imperial Knightly Orders into their own full army. Either way a niche of superhuman badasses would be fulfilled.Masks and Pauldrons are the worst part of Sigmarines and the fact that in fluff they aren't brotherhood of a fantacial racist warrior monks means that they are simply neutered Space Marines without everything that makes SM cool.
>>1450093Have tzeentch's reaction to the futures where he ultimatly loses. Now provide something backing your claim that chaos will win.
>>1450115>complains that WFB was too stagnant>creams himself over flavor text implying the universe will become stagnantThis is your brain on Age of Sugmar. (also please google Age of Sigmar Cycle of Destruction and Rebirth. The universe canonically has been destroyed and reborn a countless number of times and is destined to happen again).
>>1450231>result is a reddit post talking about 1d4chanYou're literally getting made at some nobody's headcanon.
>>1450314>he didn't read the age of sigmar novelsI don't blame you, nobody does kek
>>1450438Which novel? You're only refering to a literal reddit post
Fuck this poor warhammer imitation.
>>1440181At this Point I just want a good Age of Sigmar game. Partially becouse i would love to see it adapted well for a video game finally and partially so the People who only play video games and get thier info about the universe from still salty Old warhammer players (yea yea end Times were bad and early sigmar was too, its really good now both game and lore wise) will finally stop hating On Aos>>1440223>their lore is so goddamn enjoyableAgreed, picrel>>1441109Wrong
>>1450738>At this Point I just want a good Age of Sigmar game. Partially becouse i would love to see it adapted well for a video game finally and partially so the People who only play video games and get thier info about the universe from still salty Old warhammer players (yea yea end Times were bad and early sigmar was too, its really good now both game and lore wise) will finally stop hating On Aos.This. I'm a former Fantasy player but started to like AoS as it became better. Videogames could help us getting a better picture of what the Mortal Realms really look like. I just hope it is fun and I can play it longer without quickly moving on to a different game.
>>1449366Please make it DoW 2 gameplayPlease the last faction is Ossiarch Bonereapers
>>1449411>>1449423>>1451169It looks like Dawn of War 3, not gonna lie.
>>1451169>Ossiarch BonereapersBased tax bones enjoyer
>>1440181>age of smegmalollmao
>>1449411Oww Shame it's not aoe style
they should just copy everything from warcraft 3
>>1451169I find it realy hard to guess. I'd say flesheaters are the least liekly, but betweene Nighthaunt being the shilled faction of 2e starters, Soulblight getting thier big shilled overhoul and Ossiarchs being narratively the centre of the undead, i think it can go either way
god, i hope its the Ossiarchs
I think those are all the things we saw so far
If only this game could be this kino.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT-j4vpyn6c
aos can lick my taint, there's a spot reserved right next to the shills
>AOSL M A Opeople actually play that shit?
>>1452493>>1451169>OssiarchWhat make them so special? I thoughts they are just skeletons with more bones and rome?
I know nothing about AoS or Warhammer in general, but I'm excited to see more RTS games come out. Frontier is an interesting developer and I hope the best for them, even though I didn't particularly care for Planet Zoo or Planet Coaster. Hopefully it will be like a traditional RTS and not the faggy point capture and only building 2-3 structures that Relic has infected the genre with.
>>1453075Generally undead represent the vengeful past bothering the present living. Ossiarchs flip the script and represent the inevitable future. Think of them as a new species that evolved from humans.
>>1453075The ossiarchs arent your generic skeletons, they are Nagash's vision of a perfect society forged from the living into an undead utopia. They tithe the bones and souls from the living and reshape them in to Bone Übermenschen
>>1453116>>1453516So he's basically turning the Tomb Kings into the Necrons with bones instead of living metal.
>>1453520nothing tomb kings about them and very little necron about them
>>1453520>>1453523They have some supreficial similarities to TK/Newcrons because their armor/ornament aesthetic was derived from the End Times Nagash and Arkhan models to make them look coherent, but one a thematic level i'd say they're closer to Tyranids with human-like inteligance instead of a swarm hivemind. So instead of eating biomas like locusts they keep humans as vessals/cattle and regularly harvest them through those bone taxes everyone memes about
It's gonna be Nighthaunt
>>1440181>What do you want?Playable Cities of Sigmar>What do you expect?Disappointment>What do you fear?Shitty gay campaignsPersonally, I do believe that AoS is salvagable, even if I don't trust GW to do that.
>>1440496Yes 40K almost never tries to hide the fact they're the Grimmest, Darkest timeline, it's why so many people are so confused when people go 'The Imperium are good/justified/correct'
they already have a warhammer aos rts, it's called warcraft 3 reign of chaos