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Playing this just has me asking a bunch of questions.
I have spells and my guy has these power points, but I can use every spell only once? until I rest? and I have to rest all the time? It's odd.
Morrowind started out like that but once you get going it's alright. I'm level 7 and I still hit like a first level character. Why do people shill this god awful class (Sword Saint)?

Why do people want to adapt this board game from the 80s so badly? Why even play tabletop games when vidya objectively provides you with a better experience?

>inb4 I can play as anyone
And you can't use your imagination the moment you sit down in front of a computer screen? Weak mindset.

>>2980417
What's your stat allocation?

>Why do people shill this god awful class (Sword Saint)?
Don't follow guides.

>>2980435
no idea what I started with. I think I followed a guide and just copied everything for the first three levels. sword saint was dex focussed with an estoc. 14/18/12/15/10/14
something like that

Gave my char 20 in every stat because the combat was so godawful that I didn't want to spend any more time doing it than necessary.

If you paid for it, just refund it and move on with your life.

>>2980507
see, that's the problem with guides. they tell you what to build, but not how to play it, because it's all minmax wankery. play a fighter if you don't understand the basic mechanics.

>>2980417
I agree with this anon>>2980523
The magus is a complicated class for newcomers, and you don't even grasp how spellcasting works yet. Either way, you might as well drop the game with your bitching judging from how you're already at level 7 and still find the combat completely unenjoyable.

>>2980414
>Is this what all DnD RTwP CRPGs are like
Yes, D&D is a bad system and RTwP only adds issues to it.
Though you should stick to your first person shooters since it's clear you're not intelligent enough for actual RPGs, however bad they might be.

>>2980417
>Why do people shill this god awful class (Sword Saint)?
It's literally S tier you fucking brainlet.

>>2980414
Are you playing in turn based mode? Did you install Call of the Wild + Proper Flanking before starting playing?

>>2980414
You are a massive noob and weak at this kind of game.
Don't criticize what you don't understand yet, or play something simpler if that is more to your tastes.

>Why do people want to adapt this board game from the 80s so badly? Why even play tabletop games when vidya objectively provides you with a better experience?
TT delivers the promise of being able to do anything, also it can be an actual social experience with other people unlike even MMOs.
You have to dial back to a time when all you had was your imagination and computers were not capable of what they are today either to understand the bedrock nostalgia level that won't go away due to a few zoomer whines and copes.

>>2980539
DnD is a bad gaming system and has been since 1e but it delivered the first of these concepts to a widespread gaming audience.
The Model T was also a bad car compared to modern cars but not compared to a horse.
DnD's strength was always more in its settings and artists that sparked the imagination creating a giant percentage of the /v/ world much less /vrpg/. Now, they are shitting it up with wokoids and people that are shit at games, so they continue to churn out poor gaming systems because their priorities are garbage along with their entire poisonous worldview.

It is not like the critics around here could do any better, unless they are me.

>>2980507
>you can't use your imagination
>I followed a guide
There is a problem that lies between the polar opposition inherent within these two statements. That problem is you.

>>2980414
Yeah they adopted a system where you rest every 2nd encounter into a game with many encounters per map and where you're punished for resting too many times.
Combat is all about buffing before fights and using only cc spells in the early/mid game.
Kinetics are the closest to mages that can shoot unlimited magic.

So if I'm playing a tanky monk, should I just drop Valerie completely? She's clearly a tank.
I suppose I could build her differently but I'm getting really overwhelmed by all the choices in general.
Also should I level linzi into bard a bit more then switch her to sorcerer or something?

>>2980414
Pretty much, only the IWD games seem to have had any thought put into combat and encounter design whatsoever. Though it should be noted that Owlcat's games are singularly simplistic.

>>2980871
You can drop Valerie. Amir, Jaethal, Regongar and Nok-Nok are all better options for melee DPS. Bards are IMO best multi-classed into fighter, slayer or possibly eldritch knight, all you achieve by multiclassing to sorcerer is a gimped bard and an even more gimped sorcerer.

>>2980414
rtwp crpgs need good encounter design for the combat to feel good
pkm has dogshit encounter design

>>2980896
is full-on bard any good? I don't mind just leaving her a bard.

>>2980912
Yes.

>>2980913
kk, thanks for the help! I don't feel so overwhelmed now

>>2980912
Yes, though IMO at level 17 you're better off multiclassing with any full BAB class. Also, if you ever decide to play a bard yourself, strength based builds are better, as they are for any melee attacker.

>>2980414
1. RTWP is god awful.
2. You're probably also playing it wrong.

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>>2980668
The problem is the game and balance.

If the game gives you tons of options, but most of them are not viable, they're not really options.
You can also easily end up wasting your time on builds that don't work, forcing you to bang your head against a wall or re-roll a new character/class (which can lead to similar results).

If you're played a poorly designed and balanced game like this enough, you know where the pitfalls are, which skills don't work, exploits and shit. But that doesn't excuse the poor design.

>>2980975
>most of them are not viable
Such as? I haven't encountered any of that. This case is obviously just a person who doesn't know how to play their class. Builds are a crutch for poor play, while following guides exacerbates this.

>>2980541
>S tier
in the scope of your meta wankery. it's only S tier for people who know how to play the game.
>>2980668
>can't use your imagination to make up your own story
>use a guide to cope with the class system, offering many but very rigidly interconnect options

>>2980530
well it's not like in PoE, it's also not like Baldurs Gate or IWD, or like in Tyranny or like in Divinity or Underrail.
Those are the CRPGs I've played. With that much experience I'd call this more of a you problem for the game and not a me problem for being introduced to moving and click on things but not on how to effectively utilize skills or play my class, making it literally a fighter with three spells.

What I am mostly criticizing and this is something I dislike about all CRPGs implementing this on such a level is the reliance on rolls instead of actual chance. Rolls might work intuitively in a real tabletop, just like initiative or saving throws, but doesn't translate well to video games when you don't know the reason why the game simulates these instead of giving you a real chance statistically to hit instead of a random parameter.
This goes against the very concept of an CRPG, I do realize that. But maybe CRPGs aren't that viable anymore when the audience is restricted by how intuitive or not the gameplay is to someone who's never played a tabletop game before.
Pathfinder: Kingmaker does after all advertise itself as an RPG video game. Something which 20 years ago had a different meaning than it does today. No doubt many people here would call that it something like Skyrim or Elder Scrolls disease and see in it the fall of proper RPGs when in actuality it is a different genre.
Some games might appear similar when they shouldn't be lumped in together at all.
JRPGs and RPGs are both contain the RPG element when, as most people here should know, they're often less alike than a modern RPG and an action RPG, which are often enough still very, very dissimilar. This difference is not only limited to gameplay, but to tropes and story structure.
To me evil characters being literally evil and good characters being literally good is very strange. Good characters will see nothing wrong with murdering someone who is evil and scold you when you spare them or imprison them, the same goes for the evil characters treatment of good characters. That is a trope you see in D&D inspired games very often which to someone playing maybe Fallout 1&2 or Underrail, or Fallout NV, or the Witcher is jarring and unrealistic.

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>>2980990
>Builds are a crutch for poor play
A build is an idea of how to upgrade and gear a character so it's not a jumbled poorly thought-out mess. It's the opposite of poor play.

What's the actual issue people have with Realtime with pause?
I've noticed it's only the isometric style games that get this criticism. You don't see rtwp whiners in Dragon Age Origins or KotOR threads.
So is it an issue with perception or more related to the number of party members at once?

>>2981133
Most of the time it comes down to a skill issue, though in the case of Kingmaker it comes down to the dogshit encounter design and how braindead and tedious the whole thing is.

>>2981133
It's mostly mongoloids on this board that suck so fucking hard they have to non-stop pause the gameplay and prefer something even slower that also limits encounter design.

>>2981082
If you don't know how to play a class pure, a build is just a hindrance, especially copying someone else's builds. You should not be using complex builds if you can't understand the basic mechanics, because you won't even understand what synergies or how to use your abilities tactically. Building is for having fun breaking the game, it's absolutely unnecessary for just completing it.

>>2981133
Lack of control and dogshit pathfinding AI. DA:O and KoTOR suck too, for the same reason.

>>2981076
There's nothing wrong with having rolls in your RPGs, the issue is when retards insist on translating tabletop systems 1:1 to videogames without the necessary adjustments when they're fundamentally different media, and this is a fully western issue.
Most videogame "designers" are idiots incapable of understand actual game design, they think that videogames are good because the virtual GM doesn't need time for calculating stuff so they just slap a system as is and bloat core numbers to "balance" it, Owlcat is especially guilty of this but pretty much any tabletop adaptation is guilty of this, you can find the same exact core issues in BG, NWN, ToEE and whatever, most people are too stupid to grasp tabletop game design and you can bet your ass they're dogshit GMs too.
>>2981133
>What's the actual issue people have with Realtime with pause?
It's an inherently bad system that also leads to godawful encounter design, the Pathfinder games are a perfect example of that too.

>>2981144
Dear retard, a build is nothing more than your plan for how to invest in your character. As in actually thinking about how to progress your character.
It can be super intricate or super straightforward.

You're inhumanely fucking retarded if you think THAT is a "hindrance" or a "crutch". That it's something bad players use.
But it sounds more like you're a mongoloid that thinks build = always super intricate.

>>2981133
>You don't see rtwp whiners in Dragon Age Origins or KotOR threads
Because those can be played as casual "action" games with an optional tactical pause. RTwP in general is functioning well only when your party more or less easily wrecks almost every encounter, except some deliberately challenging fights. Whenever things get more complex than rightclicking with Human Male Fighter and sometimes using some cool magic, this system tends to break down.

The problems begin when the game's combat regulary turns into Pause with Real Time - Pillars of Eternity is the absolute worst offender in this regard, but Pathfinder somewhat suffers from this problem as well. Pressing pause every 0.5 seconds to control whatever the fuck is happening is just not fun - due to this, turn based mode in Pathfinder feels much more tactical, interesting and rewarding. Unless we're talking about attack of opportunity stacking, which is a genuine braindead fun - though it might get old fairly quickly.

>>2981157
Moron, the only way I can see to make something non-viable is to make it overly complicated and mix a bunch of shit with no rhyme or reason. I can't think of anything else that isn't "viable". Besides, the context of this statement is this thread where someone couldn't play a class they copied, that's what my point is about.

>>2981149
>Most videogame "designers" are idiots incapable of understand actual game design
>most people are too stupid to grasp tabletop game design
A genuine question - do you consider yourself fairly stupid, a midwit, or very smart?

>>2981171
What's the deal with shitting on Pillars, literally the best and most fluid RTWP game ever made due to it being too complex? Is it really just as >>2981143 says?

>>2981177
>only way I can see to make something non-viable is to make it overly complicated

Jesus fucking christ you're one dumb cunt.
Something being viable or not entirely depends on the game's design, balance and that there are no bugs. Some skills could be so comically undertuned that even a super simple build is unviable.
But you're such an astronomically gigantic idiot to even engage with. You're mental intelligence is that of a 3 year old.

>>2981189
Okay, we've gotten through your thick ass skull and circled back around to my question asking for specific examples of this in the game we are discussing. I haven't encountered it personally.

>>2981193
>no builds in the owlcat games are unviable
Is this unironically the shit you're trying to peddle now, toddler?

>>2981198
>Still no specific examples.
I accept your concession. By the way, your shitposting build sucks, anon, you just repeat the same nonsense over and over without improving your game. Boring.

>>2981182
>Pillars
Schizo game, thanks for proving it again.

>>2981205
I ask again, because I want to make it 100% clear.

You're saying that factually not a SINGLE build in either Pathfinder 1 or 2 are unviable. Correct? This is unironically the thing you're claiming?
What are you prepared to do if you're wrong? Preferably slit your own wrists so we have 1 less idiot fucking up these boards.

>>2981210
>What are you prepared to do if you're wrong?
I'll stop fucking your mother every other weekend if you can show me a single build that isn't "viable", kiddo.

>>2981181
I'm intelligent enough to see through passive aggressive shitposting tactics like yours.

>>2981213
Too many to count, but for example some very obvious ones like you multi-class from a caster into classes that don't benefit you or have synergy. This slows down and limits your spell progression while giving you nothing of value in return. Eventually your character will also be severely underpowered.
On paper you might want to make some build with cool casting of spells and combat, or some such.
Unfortunately, Pathfinder isn't forgiving and nor are the games even decently balanced, so you can very easily fuck yourself over.

Now please fuck off and slit your wrists. It will be your one and only contribution to humanity.

>>2981215
>The only way to make a non-viable build is to not understand the game mechanics or how they interact and pick shit willy-nilly, and then be surprise pikachu that it doesn't work out.
Yes, this is why my advice was to not use someone's build and just play a class pure until you actually understand the game.

>>2981214
You're intelligent enough to see through passive aggressive shitposting tactics when there are none. As someone who considers himself relatively stupid but with a fair deal of common sense, I was wondering where do you place yourself and if you ever have moments of self-doubt.

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>>2981234
>You're intelligent enough to see through passive aggressive shitposting tactics when there are none.
>Immediately humblebrags
At least we can both agree you're indeed stupid.

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>>2981063
>in the scope of your meta wankery. it's only S tier for people who know how to play the game.
No shit. If you're going to play a wizard it's meaningless if you don't use their specialty and don't understand what their abilities can actually do. Sword Saint is a very powerful class because it takes the chassis of the magus which has strong offensive potential and rounds it out by giving it defensive properties at essentially no extra cost. If you don't use your chosen weapon you won't benefit, and you need to know what spells to use and when, not just blow your load with damage spells.
>it's also not like Baldurs Gate or IWD
It's literally vancian casting, the same as the 2nd edition games but with the addition of cantrips. Do you even prepare new spells in your book? Do you even have spellcombat and spellstrike on when you fight?

>>2980975
The problem with being rescued from your own bad ideas is you will never learn how to turn a bad idea into a good one.
That's why POE sucks at its very core in comparison. It has less freedom. Freedom means you also have the freedom to make stupid non-workable decisions.
Some options are good, some options are bad, a lot are in the middle and if you are creative enough you can make them work together.

But no, everyone is fucking lazy and just waits for someone else to tell them how to play, then comes to bitch it is a bad game when they already admitted they don't know how to play in the first line.

FF14 is a good mmo but the fact that you put an MMO pic up is very telling toward your pedantic nature. FF14 is the least free form MMO out there as well, absolutely no character options in gear or skills and even the raids have nearly every step pre-planned for you.

You have no right to criticize what you clearly don't understand.

>>2981133
RWtP came about when people used to have to be more intelligent to run games on PC with older OS etc. The barrier of entry was lowered with consoles and such to less intelligent people so they bitch about that and also things like Gambits since logic programming to any interesting degree is beyond them.

>>2981798
ahaahahhaha, pc games were easy as fuck to install by the time of bg1. dos days were turn-based kiddo.

>>2981798
RTWP is what devs used to sell to the suits when they (the suits) wanted money from the Diablo market.
It's the wide appeal, fast paced, action oriented slop that only exists to take money from impressionable children.

>>2981830
RTwP is not the problem, the problem is soi cuckold 'devs', that are also rootless, consume vapid trash as inspiration for making their even more vapid trash. To simply put it, skill issue.

>>2980414
The bigger problem is that they pretend to be RPGs when they're just very low IQ tactics games.

>>2981801
>dos days were turn-based kiddo.
Only terrible games like Dark Sun though.

>>2981182
How about you read his post before replying to it

>>2981781
not the guy you were replying to but your post is so shit I can't let it stand here like this.

>Freedom means you also have the freedom to make stupid non-workable decisions
no it doesn't. freedom is to make meaningful decisions. kingmaker provides you with a veritable spring of options to make terrible decisions. meaningful to not have fun. that's bad game design.
no matter what I do in PoE, I make a decision which is meaningful.
you can see how little Owlcat understands quest and story design by the mythic aeon class in wotr and the 'decisions' you make there. my original criticism on the character writing, the criticism on good characters being not at all good but simply opposed to evil characters still applies here.
it's what you'd expect from a shitty plebbit DM running a D&D game. in this regard Owlcat does succeed, succeed in making an average D&D campaign.

>That's why POE sucks at its very core in comparison...
to Kingmaker? Kingmaker is barely a computer game.

>FF14 is a good mmo
go back to /v/ nigga

>You have no right to criticize
you don't need to engage that criticism

>what you clearly don't understand
null criticism.

>>2980662
brainlet take
DnD is an extremely great _PnP_ game system
It's not DnD's fault that it keeps getting used in computer games where there really is not excuse to do so (mechanical-wise that is, marketing wise there is of course)

>>2981149
>It's an inherently bad system that also leads to godawful encounter design
care to elaborate?
I agree with your second part PF games have dogshit encounter design, but why is lack of direction to a more polished experience, away from unnecessary non-rpg mechanics, useless bloat, chore gameplay elements, how is it in any way the fault of RTwP?
besides some RTwP games head pretty good encounter design
>BG1 ToSC
>IWD 1/2

>>2981171
not intelligent enough to figure out the best companion AI system evar
so he has to resort to
>Pressing pause every 0.5 seconds
I'm sorry but it's literally a skill issue

>>2980414
You can play in turn based mode now. Do that.

>>2980975
It's a complex system with many tactical and build options. Just because you can't grasp it immediately doesn't make a poorly designed system - it requires understanding and time to get the most out of it.
Stop playing Pathfinder and go do something else. Glad the gatekeeping is working.

>>2981237
>humblebrags
Keep repeating those NPC phrases you were taught. You're on the wrong website.

>>2981144
Are you retarded? Builds don't just refer to some X 17/Sword Saint 1/Monk 1/Vivisectionist 1 multiclass.

>>2982717
No.

>>2982887
>It's a complex system with many tactical and build options.
And a lot of said options are traps set to trick newbies into a bad choice so that they're punished for not being able to master the system.
Moreover a lot of the complexity comes from wrong implementation of game mechanics, where the tooltip lies to you and you have to figure out how to break the game with things that shouldn't stack (but they do) while avoiding things that should work in a way (but they don't).

>>2980975
I love choosing non-"meta" options and making them work, because im not a shitter

>>2982384
>veritable spring of options to make terrible decisions.
You're just not that bright. There are many ways to make solid builds and decisions.
>you can see how little Owlcat understands quest and story design by the mythic aeon class in wotr and the 'decisions' you make there.
I can see them breaking ground by putting an actual time travel path in a game with more risks than have been taken by anyone prior and you are a pleb that complains it's not JRPG/Slav/Coomer enough for your tastes. Or worse, the pretentious purple prose in POE that is like an icing of shit over a thin veneer of half finished game (I choose to bash Deadfire instead of the more rudimentary POE)

The rest of your meme niggerbabble I don't want to bother engaging with.
Have a nice day.

>>2982750
Not him but I found out about Deadfire's companion scripting system like 30 hours in. It's weirdly well hidden.
I don't mind micromanaging my dudes though, in fact I only made some minor changes to the AI and still micromanaged a lot even after finding the system. Definitely want to try a fully automated playthrough some day though, that seems like a fun challenge in its own right.

>>2981149
>Most videogame "designers" are idiots incapable of understand actual game design
Why have you not been hired as a game designer yet?

>>2983101
To be fair the AI is the only part of DF worth keeping but meme niggerbabblers never even bring it up. They are the same group of people that couldn't understand gambits and so most of PF build depth is also beyond them.
I'd gladly see the only worthwhile part of DF, that being the modular companion AI, put into PF.

>>2982918
No shit. It refers to understanding the game's mechanics though. Jesus, you people that call others retards so easily are invariably retarded.

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>>2980414
>some fag gets btfo
>Next post "Not that anon but"
This thread lol, I feel like Chuck Norris vs. a daycare.

>>2983095
Wow you’re a faggot. Go to vg and jerk off to your echo chamber cunt

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>>2982887
He can win in his mind here, but he can't win vs. PF. Yet somehow it's also too easy and shallow for him at the same time lol.
>>2982932
>Yes like the Titanic and Moon Landing they were conspiracies designed to LIE to and TRICK you lol
>I can only play perfectly balanced autism game where no choice is ever wrong and everyone gets a participation medal

How do mewling bitches like you survive in real life, seriously? Do you pay any taxes or at least any of your own bills? Own property?

>>2983165
Lmao. I am that anon, and I was so disappointed in PoE, I never even played Deadfire. Now imagine being me:
>"PoE has a terrible implementation of RTwP because it's based on constant pausing"
>closes the thread and leaves
>"B-but you can use party tactics in the sequel. I won and btfoed you, I'm so fucking good, also everyone in this thread besides me is the same person!"

>>2983205
I mean, you're talking with people who seriously think Pathfinder games are good, let alone deep, and their only argument is calling people stupid and asking why they're not making games if they think those games are bad.

>>2983208
>people who seriously think Pathfinder games are good
Anon, "I don't like it" doesn't mean "not good".

>>2983205
I was probably referring to the other "not that anon but"
DF was right to include AI, all RWtP should but it was also a step down from FF12's AI (best) or even DA2's (still better).
DF just wasn't groundbreaking in any way and unfinished to boot.

I don't even know why I try with these millennial shit eaters, they're only robbing themselves of fun clinging to their pretentious egos. It's my saintly nature I suppose to try to better those around me.
PF is obviously the better game series in all respects so far from the death of POE now especially.

>>2983288
>they're only robbing themselves of fun clinging to their pretentious egos
What do you mean, I like both PF and POE for different reasons. If anyone is robbing himself of fun it is you.

>>2983292
so you see yourself as a millennial shit eater?

>>2983288
>PF is obviously the better game series
LMAO
I suppose you have some mental gymnastics ready for why both PF games have lower scores than both PoE games on _every_ platform while targeting the _same_ audience?

just compare similar in some tone and gameplay finale of chapter one, PKM vs PoE
anti-climatic Staglord's "fortress" doesn't even hold a candle to Raedric's hold in every aspect
- location design
- encounter design
- narrative design
and Raedric's hold is not even a part of the main quest!

I mean it's no surprise since PoE was made by veterans of the genre, while PF games were made by veterans of mobile games lol

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>>2983288
>PF is obviously the better game series in all respects
The hardest I've laughed in years. Thanks anon.

>>2982887
>Just because you can't grasp it immediately doesn't make a poorly designed system

Are players either
>A: Supposed to know where all the pitfalls are, how skills work, which are worth investing in, which are not worth investing in, which things benefits certain builds the most, etc
or
>B: Supposed to learn by failing over and over, having to remake their character, until they eventually learn what the game never communicated to them.

If A, then the game does an extremely poor job at this, to the point where it basically doesn't communicate this to the player at all. This is bad design (i.e. doesn't line up with intent).
If the expectation is "players need to have intricate knowledge of Pathfinder rules, etc" then that is not only retarded, but not communicated to the player. So also bad design.

If B, that's bad design from the get-go since if it was designed to learn from failiure, they should have well integrated and flexible respec/rebuild options. Because asking players to replay the game from the start repeatedly because of poor game communication (in a narrative driven game, so not something like a roguelite where it's quick and easy to get back in and experiment) it's hilariously bad design.

>>2983418
C. Learn and adapt by making careful choices and using the multitude of tools, such as consumables and magic items, you are provided, don't immediately quit and restart because you died in a fight or two.

>>2983426
You basically admitted to both A and B, while trying to paint it as something else because of bias.
Ironically, fanboys like you are the ones that need to keep more of an open mind.

>>2983462
>You basically admitted to both A and B
No, no I didn't. I told you how to play a video game.

>>2983205
>terrible implementation of RTwP because it is based on constant pausing
nigga have you ever played Kotor? You pause constantly. That is actually giving you the choice to adapt RTwP, being able to use the feature whenever, rather than playing essentially without pause or staying in pause for ages planning out the whole fight like some meta fag.

>>2983385
>anti-climatic Staglord's "fortress" doesn't even hold a candle to Raedric's hold in every aspect

Exactly. This is what I don't get with them. The way you interact with your realm is obviously superior to caed nua, but that is simply not what PoE is focussing on. PoE is all story and decisions, and it shows. Obsidian is really good at making you care about characters. I fully believe people incapable of seeing this, people who instead want their RPGs to be all gameplay and all pandering characters, simply lack some faculty in their brains, making them unable to actually care about anything but "numbers go up."
You're supposed to sludge through awfully mediocre games because of some gadget and because it's x-y game fitting your advertised demographic. You play D&D, you play Pathfinder. If you don't play D&D we won't even consider you because the likelihood of you buying it and not refunding it instantly when you see the combat are almost null.
And mind you mediocre is still good, the abyss of terrible games is far deeper than the body and tip of good and great games!

To the PFK fags: believe it or not I care whether the miller keeps his grain or whether it is distributed among the populace. I still remember that quest 100 hrs later.

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>>2983182
>I can only play perfectly balanced autism game where no choice is ever wrong and everyone gets a participation medal
That's not what I said, however your own idol game designer said this instead

>>2983512
Your reading comprehension is terrible. Your main point is B. Trial and error. Players can only bang their heads against a wall so far or regret their choices (they couldn't know beforehand during character creation or very early) until they wish to remake the character or not play anymore. Or potentially use a trainer for respec, but at that point the end result is the same, the game design failed.

Also, something fanboys like you need to have drilled into your skulls is that people aren't always talking about their own experience when talking about the actual game design of a game. Generally that is often not the case, yet people like you make baseless assumptions and then spew out accusations. Because you emotionally attach yourself to a product.

>>2983545
No, you can easily beat the game with virtually anything is my point. People just have restartitis because they are perfectionist faggots who can't adapt or they get bored of their build.

>>2983548
>No, you can easily beat the game with virtually anything is my point
Both Pathfinder games are infamous for that precisely not being the case. For both games, that includes things actually being broken/bugged. But you clearly live in your own bubble, so why bother trying to reason with someone as close-minded and delusional as you. You're not here to discuss.

>>2983555
I think a lot of that is hyperbole from shitters who cry at the first party wipe after they crank the difficulty up because they want to seem tough, but then, I also didn't play the games at release, I always wait to get the best experience. The main problem I have is the encounter design, which is very one-note in both games.

>>2980414

It actually is terrible, at least until you turn on turn based combat which it didn't have when it came out, so I played it when it came out and quit early on, came back to it now and played turn based and its a decent game now and enjoying it so far. Still not overly a fan of trying to shove tabletop shit into a video game but its a fun tactical/rpg experience and story seems okay so far, nice music too.

I'm not even sure why rpg developers are afraid of turn based, Divinity is heaps popular and its turn based, even though the story is trash, so people must like it for the gameplay

>>2983385

I'm playing pathfinder now and was underwhelmed by the staglord fortress and the plot in general (haven't gotten further yet) the locations feel small and I thought the story with the staglord would be a bit more interesting. I did like having the option to frontal assault and you get a big challenging fight though

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>>2983214
Considering less than 15% of the people who bought them ever finished them, it's pretty clear to anyone with a shred of common sense that those games have actual (massive) issues and it's not merely a matter of personal tastes.
Keep living in your own delusions if you want, but remember that other people prefer reality.

>>2983610
I'm one of them, quite frankly it's mainly due to the games being massivet inspired and dull after the first few character levels.

>>2983610
15% would be a decent number
but it's on steam achievements it says
PKM - 9%
WoTR ~ 12%
PoE1 ~ 15%
Deadfire - 18%

so wotr seems to be not as bad as pkm,
but I doubt I can stomach the amount of degenerate shit in it (romances, furies etc.)

>>2983568
>i think it's all a lie and what i believe based on living in a bubble is universal truth

>>2983706
>Trust the grapevine, bro, not your experience!

>>2983545
>I'm afraid to like stuff and it makes me feel superior to criticize highly successful things I had no part in.

I don't see failure at all, I see a pretty good TT emulation, whereas TT has been around in one form or another for some time. This board wouldn't exist without it.

You can translate this, but curmudgeonly bitter children like yourself will never truly understand it.
"Le mieux est le mortel ennemi du bien"

>>2983418
>learn by failing over and over
>If B, that's bad design from the get-go
>If only Mr. Game Design Anon could have saved Fromsoft from making all that money. Not to mention preventing the creation of the entire Rogue genre.
Your arguments really suck even when you make a coherent one.

>>2983542
>PF is toooo complicated and toooo many pitfalls that is why I've proclaimed it bad!
>Sven said rules should be more straightforward!
Ah that's probably what reading tooltips is about.
What is your point?
Are you a schizo?
When was this written? Why should I care? Can he not change his mind again?
>The Toughness feat could have been written to make it clear that it was for 1-st level wizards.
Yet decades later I put it on pets. Obviously it is better to give players freedom instead of locking down their options into a small sawyerfied autism coracle. Freedom gives you the more robust game, and it must also come with the freedom to fail and make stupid builds.

>>2983610
Most people don't finish games completely, just get to a certain point and stop. I must have hundreds of hours in M2TW and never did a full playthrough

Still looking for an answer: can you build a decent heavy armour tank with AC over 40-42?
That's what i have with kinetic knight at level 15 or 17, don't remember exactly, sry.

>>2983888
Easily.

>>2983888
My endgame kinetic Valerie had something around 60+, and the witch in Nyrissa's funhouse drops an amulet with Mirror Image which finally covers the main weakness of non-arcane tanks.

>>2983969
Alternately you could put points into UMD and use scrolls/wands.

>>2983857
There's a difference between having the ability to fuck up your build because not everything fits together and littering the game with troll options to fuck up new players.

I bought the game on sale and I was hoping for a thread like this
>like wizard, pick wizard
>have to choose TWO dump schools if you specialise
>generalist gets force throw as their skill, a million uses but it’s damage scales off strength
>touch attacks use strength
>ranged spell attacks use dex
So hold on, I need strength and dex and con and int? But I don’t want to dump sis for skill bonuses and will saves. I also should not be a giant autismo if I’m going to rule a kingdom do I want charisma and persuasion?

>>2983846
Anon, you're not intelligent enough for this discussion.

You see, the difference between a game like Elden Ring (a goty winner, which Pathinder is not) and Pathfinder is
>you can respec at will in elden ring. since there are no classes, it's a complete respec too.
>failing by for example dying in elden ring is barely punished. progress is saved and you drop the 'souls' you carry and might need to backtrack to get it back, if you want (souls aren't a big deal and easy to get more of, plus you can carry consumables which gives you souls)
>you don't really get stuck at any point (apart from the very end if you want to beat the final boss) in elden ring. there isn't a situation where people constantly get gatekept by bosses like the stag or w/e
Meanwhile in Pathfinder, huge critical decisions are made even at character creation and you don't fully understand if you fucked up with your early decisions until way later, which can force you to replay the entire game because the game didn't communicate where the pitfalls, bugs or any of that are.
This can get so bad to the point where your progress is blocked (since it's a linear story based game). So at this point most players would either stop after a few tries and not play the game anymore. A couple would restart the game and make a new character from scratch (and they might get stuck again), with fewer still looking up guides and thus defeat the entire purpose of the "freedom" the devs gave players (which is just an illusion, since a lot of things are unviable/broken, so it's false choice).

This is why some people get so triggered by balance man (mainly tryhards), because he tries to mitigate this as much as possible.
https://www.tumblr.com/jesawyer/161302725596/balance-in-single-player-crpgs

>>2984505
Life is full of trade offs mate, you can't max everything.

That being said, generally wizards will dump strength. Hand of the apprentice is something you'll hardly use (especially past early levels). And unless you're playing a melee-focused build then you probably shouldn't be getting close enough to your enemies to use touch attacks on them.
Int is the only thing your really need (although it can be a little lower if you're focusing on buffs and summons).
Dex is useful (ray spells, ranged attacks if you run out of spells, initiative, AC, reflex saves) as is con (HP, concentration, fortitude saves), they're generally considered the next most important abilities but you're not going to be gimped if they're not super high). You don't want to dump charisma since your main character is the one who makes a lot of important persuasion checks (even if someone else in the party has higher charisma and more ranks in persuasion), but you can put ranks in persuasion to even if your charisma isn't that high. Wisdom contributes to an important save (things like fear or confusion are crippling) but the skills can usually be covered by whichever cleric you bring along, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Pro-tip for anyone starting the game with a caster: Daze is god-tier through lower levels. My first playthrough I had my sylvan sorc mc and Linzi both autocasting daze as their standard attack.

>>2980417
>why do people want to adapt this board game from the 80s so badly? Why even play tabletop games when vidya objectively provides you with a better experience?

00's Pathfinder is DnD3.75
And because the games are program as you play, when videogames catch up to providing that freedom as I sit around with a few beers and pizza. I'll pay attention.

>>2980414
oof, op never played a tabletop rpg this is gonna be rough
it takes a bit of getting used to, but you need to understand this is a tabletop rpg for us that doesn't require a DM or friends to play so it's good for nerds like this

>>2984002
and there's the disconnect. It's not troll options, it's created for a certain use option.

>>2984741
>>you can respec at will in elden ring
You can respec at will in Pathfinder too, classes have nothing to do with anything, technically you can't even respec at will in ER since tears are a finite resource, no such thing in PF games since you need to pay gold for it and gold is basically unlimited.
ER is not an RPG either so I'm not sure why you're picking this game as an example of anything
>>failing by for example dying in elden ring is barely punished
And in Pathfinder it is? Lmao, just F9 and reroll bro, it's a fucking videogame, just reload, CRPGs in particular are notorious for savescumming.
>>you don't really get stuck at any point
Doesn't happen in PF either, mostly because the game is simply too easy unless you are a masochist who plays with all possible handicaps on and refuses to use strong options, which doesn't make the game hard as much as it does turn it into extreme Russian Roulette.
>This is why some people get so triggered by balance man
People don't like Sawyer because his games suck at multiple levels despite his fart huffing, it has nothing to do with balance, his games are hardly balanced either.

>>2984844
>classes have nothing to do with anything
This is where I stopped reading. Holy fuck people this retarded are even allowed to live?

>>2980414
It plays like all RTwP play like, warmed up garbage. Be either action or turn-based, don't be some cancer inbetween.
It is also made of munchkin approved minmax build autism if you increase the difficulty above pretty nothing though.

>>2980975
>if the game gives you tons of options, but most of them are not viable, they're not really options.
Welcome to D&Dfinder design. There needs to be trap options so that system mastery is more important than roleplaying.

>>2984850
If you seriously think class based systems cannot inherently support full respec options for some reason but classless systems can you're mentally impaired
But then again you say "huge critical decisions" are made in PF's CC so clearly you're not particularly bright

>>2984813
>Options I can't figure out how to use are conspiracy and trolling!
This keeps getting better lol, no wonder these fags can't even imagine how to play without following a paint by numbers build.

>>2985727
Yo-yo! stop right there, mothermucker
not that anon, but don't even try to pretend that every PF/DnD3 option is meaningful, anyone with at least minor experience in those systems sees through your bullshit
not even to mention the designers themselves admitted that this was there conscious goal, bloating options with subpar-by-design option to provide player with gratification when choosing better options pretty much making average people feel smart, which we can see works in this very thread lol

>>2985786
>not even to mention the designers themselves admitted that this was there conscious goal
monte cuck said this after the fact to justify all the criticism they had received and prepare people for the new fad of appealing to tards, not that 3rd edition was good though, but they were justifying their ineptitude as designers and midwits ate it up. "trap" options usually coming from the fact that people who make rpg systems aren't perfect. but, it became a meme and now people want mmo type design.

>>2985687
filtered

>>2985851
>source
>i made it up but it's probably true

>>2984813
No, fuck you, retard. Actually look at some of the garbage that WotC and Paizo have shit out over the years.

>>2985933
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elephant-stomp-combat/
Feat that is objectively worse than not using it. You need to pass a CMD check that can't benefit from weapons by 5+ and blow an immediate action to do the same thing you would if you moved and attacked or charged.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/strike-back-combat/
Feat that does nothing because you could already do this with readied actions without its permission.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/prone-shooter-combat/
This feat used to eliminate penalties to using a crossbow while prone. Crossbows didn't have penalties while prone.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monkey-lunge-combat/
Standard action to increase your reach until the end of your turn. You can't attack because you blew your standard action activating Monkey Lunge.

>>2985926
>i'm incapable of deduction, only repetition.
naive-kun, i fear for you.