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Recommend me games, where you can play as a fun Spellsword and dunk on nerdy Wizards and stupid Warriors.

>The society that separates its wizards from its warriors will have its magic cast by cowards and its fighting done by fools
>>
Pathfinder. Magus is one of the best classes. It also requires 0 multiclassing.
>>
Kingdoms of Amalur.
Any TES.
>>
>>2856659
Several builds in NWN and NWN 2, also in Baldur's Gate 2.
>>
>>2856659
All TES games have spellswords.
>>
>enlightened centrist: the archetype
Cuck!
>>
>>2856659
In Morrowind spellwords are pretty much the ideal class, and you can master both magic and martials without sacrificing anything.
>>
>>2856754
wow, such great game design
>>
>>2856659
More like gay swords. Am I right?
>>
>>2856764
Morrowind lives rent free in your head, dumb romanian.
>>
>>2856659
I don't like the idea of Spellswords when the magical side of the class is about using regular magic like fireball. I like when they use magic to enhance their martial abilities like the Arcane Warrior in DA:O
>>
>>2857387
The arcane warrior does just spam regular magic (frost though if you're smart) though. That's what makes it so OP.
>>
>>2857387
>>2857491
The Spellsword word naturally focus on that part of magic. But I still want them to be able to use ranged magic, instead of using a bow.
>>
>>2856750
>using punctuation marks on 4chan

sociopathic behavior
>>
>>2856754
Not true. Wearing armor and being fatigued from swinging a sword gives you a 50% chance that all your spells will fail
>>
>>2857387
Morrowind I do a Paladin that uses utility magic (levitation, unlock, teleport, cure disease, heal, water-walking, etc.). Using a fireball is sort of pointless when I can just split anything in half with Chrysamere
>>
Spellsword is literally the protagonist class. No one understands this better than the Japanese.
>>
>>2857604
There is no armor casting penality in Morrowind and there are restore fatigue potions.At higher levels your fatigue regen from having high endurance should be good enough to counter the stamina loss from using a weapon.You can also get a constant fatigue regen enchantment or use an Absorb fatigue touch spell that can also restore it and knock out enemies.
>>
>>2857579
They should still be have a ranged option but theiy should be naturally oriented towards buffing their weapons/empowering their bodies.
For some reason whenever I try to imagine a Gish character I always think about Gandalf channeling a lightning bolt through his sword when he was fighting the balrog
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>>2856659
Try Skyrim.
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>>2858372
I kneel Todd-sama
Fallout 4 was still dogshit THOUGH
>>
>>2856686
>Several builds in NWN
>several
It's really more like four or five builds with little nitpicks and variations. Unless you're doing PRC, it's not really there since most of the wizard, bard, or sorcerer builds you do see only get their full power if you get to level 40 and may not even see 8th or 9th level spells until after level 30. That's not good for the vast majority of modules. I you do the bioware modules, maybe you get to level 28 in HotU. The only there close to a spellsword is melee bard, cleric, or druid. Melee bard being viable for that playstyle really depends on whether or not your module has armor with reduced arcane spell failure chance. Druid is better for other builds like pet builds and is limited in what armor it can use unless you dip and it really doesn't have spells that augment your melee skill unless you shift. Cleric is the only one that's consistently viable for that playstyle and can practically pureclass.
>>
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>>2856659
Your take sucks. This guy had a better one.
>>
>>2856659
How did antic Greeks separate men from boys?
With great difficulties.
>>
>>2858564
>if you get to level 40 and may not even see 8th or 9th level spells
Yeah, I know. NWN 2 is better in that regard, even with the lower-level cap because of Arcane Knight but if you go with the full 30 levels you have a bit more room to wiggle with your build. Otherwise, you can go with one level of fighter for proficiencies and pump everything else into wizard, but I don't like that build, it's not fancy enough for me.
>>
>>2858712
That's retarded real thinkers need life experince
>>
>>2859257
>being a soldier = life experience
Nigger wat.
>>
>>2856659
This is funny to me because TEStards will find that their braindead experience of being a demigod generalist does not apply to any RPG.
>>
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>>2856764
Correct, as the objective of a game is to be enjoyable and I enjoyed it.
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>>2858712
That's retarded and even more of a fake quote than the OP. Ever heard of the term Renaissance man?
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>>2860169
>Renaissance man
You mean Mary/Gary Sue?
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>>2856659
>>2856662
>>2856686
>>2856754
>>2857579
>>2857621
>>2858344
>>2858564
>spellsword
Out of all retarded zommer-isms thats the one I hate the most.
The concept is older then all of you and was always a thing without you mongolids trying to reinvent the wheel.
Its called a cleric. It does exactly what you want.
You wear armor, you have a mace or a warhammer and a shield and you can cast all kinds of supportive spells.
The only reason you don't like is because you also want to throw fireballs and you cannot stand the magic being defensive instead of offensive in nature.

>>2856750
this
>>
>>2860217
Kys you mass reporting autistic retard.
>>
>>2860217
>cleric
>purely defensive magic
Flame Strike is more kino than Fireball btw
>>
>>2860205
>being a well actualised human being is now so foreign to people it is seen as an unrealistic power fantasy
shiggy diggy
>>
>>2860217
u are stoopid, gishes are different from clerics and MUCH older than you think
>>
>>2860220
>mass reporting
You are one of those people who have to concentrate on manually breathing, arent you?

>>2860221
>purely defensive magic
Where did I say "purely" defensive magic?
>>
>>2860240
>You are one of those people who have to concentrate on manually breathing, arent you?
You are one of those people that need constant attention and are fishing for (you)'s, aren't you?
>>
>>2860239
>gishes are different from clerics
No they arent.

>MUCH older than you think
No. Just because I refuse to use the word GISH which harkens back AD&D/early 3E the proper them always was Fightermage before that and even back then non-retarded people were telling them to just play a cleric.
>>
>>2860243
No, I am one of those people who are tired of having newfags and redditors shit up 4chan with their asinine opinions because they are historically illiterate.
>>
>>2860247
If you were an oldfag, you would know that you can present your opinion, however retarded it is, without shouting at ten anons before you.
Get back to your subreddit to farm karma there, you grognard wannabee.
>>
>>2860222
>being a well actualised human being
That is NOT what Reinessanse man is about, it's specifically about zealous pursuit and EXCELLENCE in multiple subjects.

If you think that being a nobel-price winner at physics while simultaniously being a world-renown fiction writer and being a master of sport at heavy athletics is a realistic option for like 99% of humans, boy do I have a surprise for you.
>>
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>>2860255
>If
lol
lmao even

>you would know that you can present your opinion, however retarded it is, without shouting at ten anons before you.
I dont care how offended you are and I dont care about your no-true-scotsman.

>Get back to your subreddit to farm karma there, you grognard wannabee.
Trying forming an opinion with a projecting next time.
>>
>>2860262
> acheving exellence at something means you have to be the best in the world at it
God you're retarded
>>
>>2860270
It's okay, we all know you're excellent at quantum mechanics. Even though you have no achievements to back that up, we'll BELIEVE in you!
>>
>>2860217
>mass replying niggerfaggot
Opinion discarded.
>>
>>2860308
Zoomer detected
>>
>>2860217
Spellswords originate from AD&D multiclassing zoom-zoom. You're not fooling anybody with your "BETTER THAN MY GENERASHUN" spiel, all you revealed is that you didn't play tabletops in the 90s.
>>
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>>2860628
I'm not the one saying spellswords are a modern invention or that clerics are spellswords.
>>
>>2860296
> having to resort to ad hominems
Pathetic
>>
>>2860663
Are you pretending to be retarded at this point?

>I'm not the one saying spellswords are a modern invention
Where did I say exactly that you illiterate mouthbreather?

>or that clerics are spellswords.
They are.
You want an armoured caster that can cast spells and hit things.
Thats exactly what a cleric does.
I cant wait for you to come up with your retarded headcanon how they are totes different things.
>>
>>2860866
>Where did I say exactly that you illiterate mouthbreather?
Right here you dumb pavement ape.
>Out of all retarded zommer-isms thats the one I hate the most.
>clerics are spell swords
Negative anon. Spell swords are derived from fantasy books like elric (pic related) which is far older than you. Multiclassing exists because people wanted to play as Elric or other characters like him. Clerics are based upon holy knights like Templars or hospitlars, they are a totally and completely different archetype.
Now fuck off with your autism.
>>
>>2860955
not him and completely irrelevant, but I love what Elric has done for RPGs in general, east or west. even for jrpg shit, i don't think something like FF would even have dark knights or summoners if it wasn't for this dude's soul-absorbing, life-draining, spirit-calling, god-evoking move set. i can't think of a single rpg that doesn't evoke something from at least one of moorcock's novels
>>
>>2860217
Why do stupid niggers on this board always mass reply with retard opinions that are at most tangentially related to non-OP posts, kys
>>
>>2860955
right about where spellblades come from and why they are with DnD from day 1 as Sword and Sorcery in general has many spellblades, but clerics come more from Dracula's Van Hellsing. One of the creators wanted a class for vampire hunters and Gygax infused it with teutonic order autism
>>
>>2860985
Because they're paid troublemakers who want you to get angry because their handlers need to keep the tension high on sites like these.
>>
>>2861028
>Gygax infused it with teutonic order autism
Neat. So I'm not wrong.
>>
>>2856659
This point falls completely flat in fantasy where "spellswords" even exist since mages already fulfill a combat and scholarly role and tend to be much stronger than spellswords anyway. Why learn to swing a sword when you can literally cook people or move them with your mind? It's like focusing on melee weapons in a setting with guns.
>>
>>2860716
>doesn't know what ad hominem is
>>
>>2860217
>gishes = cleric
Clericfags are even worse than Wizardfags.
>>
>>2860982
>Irrelevant.
Anon. Moorcock isn't Irrelevant. I infact greatly enjoy moorcock. I think everyone's life would improve with a little moorcock in it.
>>
I don't even know what a "spellsword" is supposed to be. I always thought it was supposed to be like a jedi who jumps around with magic and has a magic sword and maybe throws some cheeky lightning bolts, but in every game I've played it's either just a wizard who does normal wizard things but wearing armor, or a fighter who can buff himself but that ends up being basically the same as every other fighter because the system designed unbuffed fighters to be henchman tier.
>>
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>>2861037
yeah but this is the archetypal cleric, the teutonic order autism came secondary
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>>2856659
elden ring is actually a good game for being one. there even is dedicated spellswords in the lore called the Carian Knights.
>>
Fable. I cast apells then hit whatevers left with a sword. Fuck fable 2 and 3. Idk your mileage may vary but it was fucking fun.
>>
>>2861537
Neato. So I'm not wrong in that they based on Templars and teutonic knights in general.
>>
>>2861698
Are you autistic or something? This is not about you being right or wrong, this is about he information that all of early DnD roots back to Fantasy/Horror/SciFi literature and among them Dracula for the cleric. Which is a cool almost unknown fun fact. That or you just have a weird way to communicate.
>>
>>2861715
>yeah, but....
>yeah, but....
On one hand you agree that I am right that clerics are based on teutonic knights and battle priests. Then you go on to say I am wrong and they are acktually based on van helsing, which is dubious given that the only thing in which they share is undead slaying but even then the clerics undead slaying is something closer to a catholic priests exercisom.
>>
>>2861715
these kinds of people only know discussion as combat, any response is perceived as such, even an addendum.
>>
>>2861730
>>2861728 proves you right, it is a damn shame what the internet is doing to the minds of young men
>>
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>>2861730
>>2861733
Peak cringe guys. This isn't even mildly hostile or combative. Just because i disagree with what he is saying doesn't make this hostile. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with your statements perhaps this isn't the place for you.
>>2861733
Anon, if you are going to correct someone on something they wrote, have the conviction in your own statement to not preface it with "Yeah, but". It's an annoying way to discuss things.
>>
>>2861739
Let me make it simple for you. It is a normal figure of speech and you are a fucking spaz for going off on it
>>
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>>2861750
Get thicker skin please. Stop getting upsetti when people don't agree with you or when you type like an idiot.
>>
>>2861760
hey I am not the one here on a meltdown because someone wrote him a ", but"
>>
>>2861768
>meltdown
Having a discussion isn't a meltdown anon, I'm sorry you perceived it as hostile but it really wasn't. This place isn't for you and you should either lurk for a minimum of 2 years or go to some social media site.
>>
>>2861779
Now your are downplaying your sperging, rightly so. Look up the definiton of the word but. Oxford gives as the first definiton
>used to introduce a phrase or clause contrasting with what has already been mentioned.
>"he stumbled but didn't fall"

My sentence is a bit more complicated since the but contrasts both the statement about the spellsword and the statement about the teutonic orders, but still it should be apparent that in this case it is seen as an addition putting an emphasis of the primary origin of the class, especially since I added onto that a confirmation that the teutonic origin is also correct.

You are literally not capable of understanding human communication, thus why I asked if you are autistic.
>>
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>>2861784
Anon.... my annoyance wasn't with the word "but" it was the way you were replying to me. You were essentially saying "yes you are correct, but you are wrong" which is annoying. This illicited some mild shitposting from me. Which you've unironically mistook as hostility (kek) towards you.
Please go somewhere else. If you are going to have a fit over the mild interactions we've had ITT this site is going to chew you up.
>>
>this fucking thread
Shitty D&D based video games have rot your brains so hard that you fags unironically believe that "spellsword" and "cleric" are the same archetype.

>b-but they're mechanically similar
That's why you don't get into RL RP groups.
>>
>>2862177
It's one successful troll
>>
>>2860270
If you're not at least in the top 10th percentile then how are you excelling?
>>
>polymathy
>not a midwit filter
Specialization is king and always will be king.
>>
>>2860217
Fuck off and die, retard, gishes have been a thing since before the millenial generation.
>>
>>2860217
Clerics are clearly tailored more around religion than magic purely which is the aesthetic difference. Mechanically they would have entirely different spell sheet.
>>
>>2861728
>they are acktually based on van helsing, which is dubious
They are, it's not dubious whatsoever, and there's firsthand accounts attesting to it. Clerics exist because some fag had a vampire PC that was super overpowered named Sir Fang and they needed a class that could counter it and Van Helsing is the obvious pick for a vampire hunter.
>>
>>2862378
The global 10th percentile is currently over 800 million people. There's a lot of leeway for people to fit into that category before they can reasonably claim to be the #1 in the subject. Even if you narrow it down the the global 1% - people who could reliably expect to be the smartest person in a room full of random people - would have enough people to form their own country among themselves if they wanted to.
>>
>>2861840
sperg
>>
>>2860217
>Complains about neologisms
>But doesn't know that the word cleric literally just means priest with no fighting connotations
>>
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>>2860656
>Spellswords originate from AD&D multiclassing zoom-zoom
See >>2860246

>You're not fooling anybody with your "BETTER THAN MY GENERASHUN" spiel, all you revealed is that you didn't play tabletops in the 90s.
Hi, this is /vrpg/-customer-support, have you tried not projecting your illiteracy onto others?

>>2860955
>Out of all retarded zommer-isms thats the one I hate the most.
>I'm not the one saying spellswords are a modern invention
Cant tell if ESL-Retard or just no reading comprehension.

> Spell swords are derived from fantasy books like elric (pic related) which is far older than you
> Multiclassing exists because people wanted to play as Elric
>Clerics are based upon holy knights
>I cant wait for you to come up with your retarded headcanon how they are totes different things
Called it.
The Fighting Man, the Wise Man and the Pious man are generally 3 different but similiar archetypes of all sorts of legends around the world.
They are different flavours of the eponymous heroes journey which is why Fighting Man, Magic-User and Cleric when Tabletop Strategy Gaming started turning into Roleplaying Strategy
Gaming.

>Now fuck off with your autism.
ngmi

>>2861028
>>2861033
>>2861537
>>2861698
>>2861715
You are confusing the roots of Chainmail and Blackmoore with D&D.

>>2860985
>>2861028
Because so many of you zoomers are plain wrong.
You pick up up some retarded shit either from some retarded Youtube-Essayist or from r/Imagiganticfaggot and then start repeating it.

>>2861283
>>gishes = cleric
Correct.

>>2862456
I didnt say they werent.
We used to call them Fightermages and already back then you people were the most insufferable thing to happen to Tabletop.
People mocked your kind back then and you should still be mocked.

>>2862458
In other words apart from aesthetics its exactly the same thing,
gg no re

>>2862608
>too dumb to read
>still replies
I obviously meant "cleric" the same way D&D uses it. Try to keep up, zoom-zoom.
>>
>>2862854
Kys retard
>>
>>2862868
Ladies and bitchboys first.
>>
>>2862909
You qualify for both so what are you waiting for?
>>
>>2862854
>zoomer/zoom-zoom over and over
did you even read your pic?
>>
>>2862914
>n-n-n-n-no u!
No U.

>>2863003
Did you?
>>
>>2860217
Shit post
Shit opinion
>>
>>2862854
You check almost all the boxes in that pic, lol. Get some self-awareness, retard.
>>
>>2862854
>I looked up what the term "Fightermage" was from Reddit, am I oldfag yet?
You're an election tourist LARPing and it's very obvious and I feel very sorry for you.
>>
>>2858712
>Statue is of a warrior
>by his logic he's a dumb fuck
I should disregard his opinion or make fun of him for confirming Thucydides's statement
>>
>>2862854
why have paladins then? they are basically inferior clerics.
>>
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>>2862854
>>
>>2862854
In other words apart from aesthetics its exactly the same thing,
>ignores the fact wizards and clerics get different spells in every single version

You're not smart you're actually too stupid to not only understand but accept there's a huge difference between a cleric and a mage.
>>
>>2859284
Bruh DnD has been doing this for decades, 2e had the fighter/mage, 3.5/Pathfinder has multiple combinations that do exactly this, and 5e has the Hexblade and Bladesinger Wizard.

You're retarded
>>
>>2864068
Those are nothing like a "spellsword" in TES.
>>
>>2864071
You're right they're fucking stronger. In all of those cases you become a reality warping god that can also be an expert sword master.

Elder Scrolls unmodded doesnt let me summon meteors or transform into a fuck huge dragon or conjure shadow realities or make illusions real when I play them.
>>
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>>2856659
Ah yes, Rand Al Thor's class.

Based pick anon.
>>
>>2864073
Outside of reddit games like BG nothing even approaches the level of catch-all-literally-do-anything-without-even-thinking-about-a-solution that is present in TES and you don't play any DnD games that actually have those things or you'd know why that is.
>>
>>2864079
Both Pathfinder Games
Dragon Age games
Pillars of Eternity Games
Neverwinter games
any JRPG as the protag

Any DnD Tabletop
Any Pathfinder Tabletop
Any Rogue Trader or GURPS
Any Warhammer Fantasy

Yeah nah. Spellswords have been popular for a long time.
>>
>>2864087
>Both Pathfinder Games
>Dragon Age games
>Pillars of Eternity Games
>Neverwinter games
This is all rtwp garbage where the consequences of doing those things are not immediately apparent. Try to summon up some meteors in DnD? Whoops, the kobold had readied versus spell and slung a rock into your cranium as soon as your started waving your hands around. Make an illusion? Whoops, here comes the dispel to ruin that expensive spell you just did. Want to transform into a dragon? Well, you retain your own level, and now you're a huge slow easily hittable target that can't cast or use items.
>>
>>2864094
>This is all rtwp garbage where the consequences of doing those things are not immediately apparent. Try to summon up some meteors in DnD? Whoops, the kobold had readied versus spell and slung a rock into your cranium as soon as your started waving your hands around. Make an illusion? Whoops, here comes the dispel to ruin that expensive spell you just did. Want to transform into a dragon? Well, you retain your own level, and now you're a huge slow easily hittable target that can't cast or use items.

None of this is by the book DnD or Pathfinder. As I maintain, you're an idiot.
>>
>>2864095
>None of this is by the book DnD or Pathfinder.
>The target character assumes the form of a huge dragon. The character gets a +14 Strength bonus and a -4 Dexterity penalty. The character gains a +18 Natural Armor Bonus. The character gains immunity to one energy type (which must be Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, or Poison), and a breath weapon that inflicts 1d6 per level of the same type of damage. Using the breath weapon is a supernatural ability that requires a standard action and may only be used at most once every 1d4+1 rounds. The character has a flight speed of 120' with poor maneuverability. A character in Dragon Form has three natural attacks: a primary Bite and two secondary claws. Worn equipment is subsumed into the new draconic form.
>>
>>2856659
Play Outward
>>
>>2864095
>None of this is by the book DnD or Pathfinder. As I maintain, you're an idiot.
>A character can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If a character succeeds in damaging the spellcaster or otherwise distracting the spellcaster, the spellcaster may lose the spell the spellcaster was trying to cast (as determined by the Concentration check result).

Should I keep going?
>>
>>2864094
>Want to transform into a dragon? Well, you retain your own level, and now you're a huge slow easily hittable target that can't cast or use items.

Both Pathfinder and Dnd 5e let you cast spells and attack as a dragon. With all the dragons benefits. With the AC of a dragon and it's hitpoints and concentration nothing can touch you. You're an idiot.
>>
>>2864099
>having to make a concentration check means you fail
>any high level wizard or spellsword ever caring about concentration checks

Yes please keep showing your quick google skills and complete lack of knowledge.
>>
>>2864101
You can't cast somatic spells as a dragon. You literally do not have hands.
>>
>>2864102
>concentration check
>what is arrow of sleeping
>what is counterspell
>>
>>2864104
their claws are hands anon. Every Dragon can cast spells in DnD and Pathfinder. Ypu're retarded. Please continue. You can even google a dragon's spell list you fucking mong.
>>
>>2864105
>sleep arrow doing anything in Pathfinder or DnD after level 5

lol.

>another spell to attempt to counter a PCs spell.
Yes another literal Wizard of equal level has to be able to G-check you for this to happen, in which case you've got other issues at high level. And with subtle spell or its equivalents your spells cannot be countered.

Please continue to show your abhorrent google comprehension skills.
>>
>>2864106
Magical creatures can only cast select innate spells, this is retarded house rules.
>>
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>>2864110
you cant even google right
>>
>>2864110
Seriously how are you this bad
>>
>>2864113
read the link smart guy, dragons do not have hands
>>
>>2864116
You're an idiot and I'm wasting time on you. Have fun not understanding somatic components.
>>
>>2864113
It says right on the website that they can't and the rules were written for humanoids. I'm looking at it right now.
>>
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>>2864120
>>2864116
Kill yourselves
>>
>>2864120
There's a dracolich that is one of the most powerful wizards ever.
Daurgothoth, also known as "the Creeping Doom", was a dracolich archmage and one of the most powerful beings in all of Faerûn.
>>
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>>2863357
>a-a-a-a-a-ackshually it refers to youuuu not to meee, a bloo bloo bloo!
ngmi

>>2863421
>buzzwords buzzwords buzzwords
You are the person the pic in >>2862854 refers to.
Dat cope tho.

>>2863617
Because a Holy Knight/Crusader/Chevalier is fundamentally something different from a Cleric.

>>2863620
100% certified mad

>>2863653
>b-b-b-b-b-ut different spells means its totally different!
>You're not smart you're actually too stupid to not only understand but accept there's a huge difference between a cleric and a mage.
Right which is why none of you "Spellsword"-Faggots can mount a a proper counter-arguments while you seethe and shit and piss yourself impotently.
>uuuuuh there is this biiiiiiig difference ackshuually so big that we cannot explain because you will just prove me wrong!
Embarrassing.

You know why you are so impotently mad and why so many in this thread are seething?
Because I am right.
And deep down you know it too but because of your pathetic little ego you cannot accept it.
>oh no anon was mean and made fun of my silly protagonist-aspirations and it just cut too deep oh no no no!
>>
>>2864147
>>
>goes on an insane meltie because everyone ITT shat on xem
Was it autism?
>>
spellsword is the gayest moniker. every time i hear it i imagine some lispy faggot saying it and chuckle.
>>
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Are witchers are spellswords on steroids?
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>>2864210
Witchers are more like fighters who dabble a bit in magic. Not a spellsword.
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>>2864157
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>>2864177
>goes U MAD! MAAAAD! because there is nothing he can do against his perturbed pooper
Is it projection?
>>
so is this basically the dipshit "I want to be a marvel superhero" class
>>
>has to reply to literally anybody who calls him a faggot
Your mother is very disappointed in you, I think we're going to try for your replacement next time I'm railing her.
>>
>>2856659
For me a spellsword is a character the uses spells for utility.
Dark Souls is not that good at ist but imo pyromancy should have filled that niche.
Unfortunately most spells are damage based.
Outward did a great job with that your sacrifice health and stamina for mana and you have spells that enable other spells.
>>
>>2864147
>Spellsword is not different from cleric but paladin is
Crusader is fundamentally the same as a battle cleric.
cast religious spells, then wack dude. there is no difference, other than a paladin sucks at magic.
>but muh sword
arbitrary weapon restriction is stupid, it takes as much skill to wield a warhammer as a sword.
>>
>>2864221
>>2864075

It's the main protagonist class
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>>2863555
He wasn't a warrior though.
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>>2864230
>main protagonist
not an rpg
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>>2864221
>>2864230
Yes which is it attracts all the special snowflake.
>noooo what do you mean I have to chose from a class like my other party-members, I am extra-SPECIAL!
Through all the impotent kvetching we have finally figured out what a Spellsword is, its literally just Pic related lmao

>>2864229
>Crusader is fundamentally the same as a battle cleric.
>battle cleric.
You count go a single sentence without moving the goalpost even further. Kek

>cast religious spells, then wack dude. there is no difference, other than a paladin sucks at magic.
True. Crusaders are just like Spellswords then.

>arbitrary weapon restriction is stupid, it takes as much skill to wield a warhammer as a sword.
You mean just like the arbitrary spell restrictions?
>buuut mom! I cant be a Spellsword if I cannot cast Fireball!
>>
this autism just reminds me of how far removed from the archetypical wizard the d&d version has become. gandalf was pretty much a god but didn't use his magic for much more than fireworks. now d&d wizards can become gods just by grinding enough exp.
>>
>>2864304
Gandalf was a shitty wizard.
>>
>>2864304
Gandalf wasn't a god, he was an angel. And he had severe restrictions on how he could use his power, placed by the actual God. He didn't use his magic for much more than fireworks because he couldn't, barring exceptional circumstances like the balrog. D&D wizards operate in a functionally pagan setting, they're playing by different rules so they get to do more, because there's nobody big enough to functionally stop them as a collective. Godhood in D&D is something you earn.
>>
>resorting to just repeating the word "s-snowflake" in his little meltie
loving every laugh, you're going to pretend you were trolling before this thread 404s
>>
>>2864110
Incorrect.
>>
>>2864097
>easily hittable
>+18 natural armor bonus
No
>>
>>2864099
Readied actions set up like that is one of the dumbest fucking things you could do. You've ceded full attacking without a very specific crossbow combat style feat line and given the Wizard the ability to tell your readied shot to fuck off by walking behind any form of cover including their allies for an instant +4 to AC and/or dropping prone for another +4 to AC. Don't give spellcasters the ability to control the battlefield without spending actions.
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>>2864314
>more projection
Have you ever tried making a single post without projecting yourself onto others?
Give it a try for once.
>>
>>2864328
>3rd edition is gay and retarded
Welcome to 20 years ago, Anon.
>>
>>2864338
>implying that that problem is limited to 3E
It happened in every edition of the game you could ready actions in but one.
>>
>>2864341
I'm not talking about ready actions, Anon.
>>
>>2864219
>brings reddit up when no one mentions it.
>cas others reddit.
Yikes. I'm getting 2nd hand cringe from you.
>>
IMO Spellswords should have spells that make them better at swording. Stuff like teleporting behind an opponent for advantage, deflecting massive amounts of arrows if they remain stationary, adding energy damage to their weapon, being able to summon an astral copy of themselves/their weapon and/or being able to telekinetically wield an extra weapon. Things of that nature.
>>
>>2864313
still gandalf and merlin are basically the pattern that wizards are based on, but d&d wizards are so powercrept that they have almost nothing in common.
>>
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>>2864395
>Yikes. I'm getting 2nd hand cringe from you.
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>>2864832
>wojack
Newnigger.
>>
>>2864708
That's because Gandalf and Merlin are advisor characters based on the wise man archetype and not PCs at all.
>>
>>2856668
Is Amalur worth a playthrough
>>
>>2864880
No, but you should try it to understand why you shouldn't trust recommendations from people online without cross-referencing their tastes to yours.
>>
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>>2864874
lmao
you wish
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>>2864917
>>
>>2864877
name one wizard pc from folklore or myth
>>
>>2865159
Väinämöinen
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>>2865159
that's my point, it's wizard as a pc isn't related to wizard as the archetype. the archetypal pc wizard is raistlin or pug.
>>
>>2865171
how can raistlin and pug be archetypal wizards when they were both based on people's rpg characters?
>>
>he's still spamming tranime and basedjaks to every single person who dares insult him on the internet
LOL
>>
>>2865159
>>2865296
It's what the other Anon said. The modern "caster" archetype is very recent when nerds decided to give the nerd characters unbalanced superpowers. Pretty sad thing if you think about it.
>>
>>2865338
eh, pug's warrior friend had superpowers too. caramon was a fucking badass chad. wizards just draw eyes.
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>>2865159
Simon Magus
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>>2865159
Odin. Though the nature of Viking magic meant he had to take a few classed in Bard first.
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>>2856659
"hybrid" characters are the pure mechanical anti-fun to any game they're implemented in. It completely goes against character identity and game-theory.
>DUDE, IT'S LIKE, AN ARCHER, BUT ALSO A BADASS SWORDSMAN
>BROOOO, LIKE, WHAT IF THE PAWN, COULD LIKE, MOVE JUST LIKE A ROOK
>BROOOOOO, I'M LIKE A WIZARD, BUT I ALSO CAN KICK ASS JUST LIKE THE PALADIN!

It removes player choice and freedom when you just combine different playstyles into one mutt abomination class.
>>
>>2864288
battle cleric is what you have been saying a spell sword is.
clerics are an incredibly versatile, and OP class. play it like a fighter with spells (battle cleric), or play it like a full caster (cleric cleric) the only difference is memorized spells. spellsword allows for fantastic low level control spells like grease, web, stinking cloud, while playing as a flanking fighter. it is much harder to play main line fighter like a cleric, unless you are doing 3.5 multiclass/prestige cheese.
fireball is a shit spell stop being such an autistic sperg.
>>
>>2865400
>>2865385
>>2864917
samefag
>>
>>2864448
I used to cast invisible weapon on my swords in Dark Souls 2 and that was surprisingly effective in PvP.
>>
>>2865383
but odin was a god. that's the point I was trying to make. "wizards" in folklore were usually gods or some kind of demi-human, and their magic was stuff like seeing the future and talking to birds. the modern rpg wizard is basically an invention of rpg players who took the classical concept of an occultist who studies magic books and turned it into a "that kid" class that has a spell for everything.
>>
>>2865587
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's good that something new was created. You are reading too much into the psychology of it. The thing is the weaknesses of the wizard class don't get abused in games enough. Getting a spellbook stolen, being tied and gagged, losing all your material components having no chance to rest and memorize new spells, not having the correct spell for the situation, or the simple difficulty of surviving to a high level. Plenty of ways to take them down a peg.
>>
>>2865589
there's plenty wrong with it because it pushes the idea that wizard is supposed to be a mad scientist class with an invention to solve every problem only replace science with magic. how many times have you heard someone argue that "wizard is supposed to be the most powerful class because magic can do anything" as a reason for class balance to be shit on purpose. wizard was supposed to have a bunch of weaknesses like low physical stats, but then they went and made a bunch of spells that not only compensate for it, but also made it so physical classes are gimped without a way to use them on themselves. all of those counters you mentioned have spells to get around them, and there's always the ultimate counter which is what caused the situation to begin with of wizard players crying to the dm that they aren't being allowed to play their class how they want.
>>
>>2865385
>giving players choices and freedom with their class removes player choice and freedom
Are you even thinking about the shit you write before you post?
>>
>>2865587
Gods in the classical sense were just primordial forces of nature or great humans that ascended. The modern RPG wizard is just following polytheist tradition, because D&D is a polytheist setting. In LoTR it would never work because LoTR is a monotheist setting.
>>
>>2865614
don't feed the tranime samefag
>>
>>2865610
> it pushes the idea that wizard is supposed to be a mad scientist class with an invention to solve every problem
Literally only seen this with 5E critical roll kiddies. The fact that you project this onto d&d as a whole tells me your are a tertiary critical roll kiddie.
>"wizard is supposed to be the most powerful class because magic can do anything"
Yeah, and the role of the DM is to bonk those tards on the head for getting uppity like that.
>bunch of spells that not only compensate for it, but also made it so physical classes are gimped without a way to use them on themselves.
Name the spells.
>wizards crying
So? Again it's the DMs role to bonk those tards on the head for getting uppity.
>>
>>2865626
even if dms try to rein wizards in they are being actively sabotaged by the game devs. even banning all spells from splat books doesn't help since the core rules are full of campaign ruining ones.
>>
>>2865643
>if dms try
>muh rules
Lel. DMs have final say on everything. Anytime one of my players wants to get cheeky with something, depending on its severity, I'll allow it but then I slap them 5 times harder than what they delt out.
>campaign ruining ones
Name them.
>>
>>2865589
>Getting a spellbook stolen
Not a weakness. Not only does this make no tactical sense, it's almost impossible to pull off without cheating.
>being tied and gagged,
Not a weakness unique to the Wizard and they can in fact do things while under these conditions.
>losing all your material components
Material components haven't been relevant since AD&D.
>having no chance to rest and memorize new spells
Not a weakness unique to the Wizard.
>not having the correct spell for the situation
Git gud.
>or the simple difficulty of surviving to a high level
It's not actually hard.
>>
>>2865653
Shapechange, Wish, Fabricate, Planar Binding.
>>
>>2865670
These are all things that can be done as part of a campaign that doesn't hold player's hands. You've just only ever been babied and then blame the class and not the campaign.
>>
>>2865676
>wish
>kek
>shape change
Kek.
>fabricate
Kek.
>planar binding
Kek.
>>
>>2865698
Ah yes, because Wish doesn't have a list of effects that the DM is allowed no fuckery with, access to almost any effect in the game once every round for free, breaking any semblance of an economy in three words, and access to infinite wishes aren't going to affect a campaign at all. Nope.
>>
>>2865677
No, not really. I realize you like to masturbate to the idea of fucking players up without checking how plausible your ideas are, so maybe go do that first.
>>
>>2865709
Well, you got me there, I do like to masturbate. But no, I'll just handwave your handwaving and continue creating masterful experiences that would make you whine.
>>
Ok ok.
What’s a battlemage?
>>
>>2865707
>lvl 9 spell
If your players are throwing around lvl9 spells and you as the DM are throwing encounters at them with out taking that into account, that is the DMs fault not the game. Tard.
>infinite wishes
KEK.
>>
>>2862854
>so retarded he has to make an infographic /pol/ style to argue for him as he cannot actually engage in debate honestly
Why do /pol/fags seem to only communicate in meme images?
>>
>>2865727
No, it's the game's fault because building encounters around Shapechange is going to make everyone who doesn't have it useless. You clearly do not understand what it or Planar Binding do.
>>
>>2862854
tl;dr lol fag
>>
>>2864880
Yes. Just save often and make backups because it's buggy.
>>
>>2865739
>shapechange
>requires a jade tiara
>an important has snuck into your camp and stolen your jade tiara
GG EZ. Got any other game breaking spells impossible for the DM to deal with?
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>>2860217
>Its called a cleric
Based and clericpilled.
However, the Cleric doesn't have access to arcane spells, and some of those are pretty good buffs.
>Just use a wizard to cast it on a cleric
Some are self-cast only.
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>>2865765
>level 17
>camp
No.
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>>2865771
Dosen't matter tard. The DM has ultimate say on what happens. The players can be taking a rest in an alternate universe protected by 5 billion angel warriors and the imp is still going to steal the tiara.
You keep harping on about the game being broken but every single rule in the game is up to the DMs discretion. If i see my players abusing a gimmick and it is ruining the fun for one or more players than that imp is going to steal the tiara.
>>
>>2865776
In other words, I was right all along. You have no understanding of what spellcasters in D&D can actually do and have to retreat to literally cheating and changing the rules on the fly to get one over on them. Nobody else gives one single shit about your ability to houserule until you win.
>>
>>2865707
you don't even need wish to ruin things. fly is retarded ad it's only a level 3 spell.
>>
>>2865785
And it's not even the best low level flight spell.
>>
>>2865780
>I was right
Nope. It's explicitly stated in the rules that the rules are guidelines and the DM has ultimate say over those rules.
Keep seething about a game you don't play though.
>>
>>2865808
Rule zero is not a go ahead to change everything on a whim. I was right, I'll always be right, and you will die mad about the fact that you had to resort to changing several unrelated rules and spells to make your dogshit retarded idea of "I'll just steal their things while they sleep, that'll counter them!" functional at all.
>>
>>2865811
And for the record, I'm not opposed to houserules. I have personally asked GMs to nerf something I'm using multiple times. Nerfing a spell because it's abusive is fine. Deciding to be an utter faggot power tripper and rewrite rules without telling anyone, like Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion or personal demiplanes barring anyone the spellcaster doesn't want in there full stop, including gods, the familiar rules, the stealth rules, extra senses that don't even need to roll to detect someone, and anything like Alarm that shuts this shit down right from level 1 because they blow apart your terrible ideas? That's shit GMing.
>>
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>>2865811
>come up with a dumb premise that breaks the game.
>gets and equally dumb premise that fixes the game.
I put as much thought into a way to fix the shapechange "conundrum" as you have this entire thread, which is very little. Keep being upset about a game you don't play.
>>
>>2865820
Railroading the player because you're obsessed with the idea of stealing their gear to teach them a lesson is not fixing the game.
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>>2865821
>obsessed
Kek. Literally just shat the idea out. You seem obsessed with proving d&d is bad. That's fine, each their own.
>railroading
Hardly. It's a ridiculous hypothetical answer to your ridiculous hypothetical situation.
Keep being mad people have fun doing things you don't like.
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>>2865826
It literally is railroading.
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>>2865829
The point of the imp was to show that the players ability to break the game hinged on an item the can be taken away.
It's only railroading if you never let the player never have it again, but if you show the player It can be easily countered by something so trivial they'll probably think twice about casting it every single encounter.
Keep being bootyblasted there are people who have different ideas than you.
>>
>>2865843
It's railroading because the player's choices didn't matter. It's exactly the same as ignoring what a player said so your stupid fucking NPC could give a scripted speech you wrote ahead of time.
>>
>>2865843
The only thing you showed was that you're a shit DM who doesn't check to see if anything you come up with is actually plausible within the game world and when you run up against any resistance you'll ignore every single thing that makes your dumbfuck ideas implausible. You're a shit DM whose idea of a campaign without handholding is actually a campaign where the DM is fucking trolling the players with asspulls.
>>
>>2865854
>autistically obsessed with a retarded hypothetical answer to a retarded hypothetical question.
How can a spell break a game if the ability to cast the spell hinges on an item that can be removed by various means?
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>>2865863
Because the ability to remove the item through means other than DM fiat basically does not exist by the time you're able to cast it.
>>
>>2865865
>DM fiat
Use a table for hit locations and make it possible for errant attacks to hit a player's backpack and potentially damage one or more items. Spell requiring items that have been damaged become unavailable or unreliable until party gets it replaced or repaired. The replacement is discounted if they bring the damaged item because free materials. Trust the dice gods to make things more interesting.
>>
>>2865843
why does wizard need to be actively sabotaged just to prevent them from using their by the book class features but not barbarian or rogue? a level 5 wizard can fly which completely changes how every environment has to be planned. a level 5 fighter can't even attack twice per round.
>>
>>2866204
Gotta find or research that spell first. Make people earn their power and it won't feel cheap. Don't have Ye Olde Scroll Shoppe on every street corner or give the party infinite gold. Most people just can't craft campaigns.
>>
>>2865820
>>2865821
>>2865826
>>2865829
>>2865843
>>2865854
>>2865862
>>2865863
>>2865865
>>2866065
>>2866204
lmao
Zoomers with no understanding of the history of RPGs or the fundamentals of Tabletop try to fix player-issues with game mechanics.

Tabletop in the first place is a teamgame, each class has its role, each players has his time to shine.
The problem arises if you have someone playing a class that offers more flexibility but is too autistic to leave some of the spotlight for his other partymembers

Its like that time when I saw some sperg complaining about a game in a different thread because the game "encouraged him" to savescum so clearly tge developers are to blame because it has to be made retardproof for him.
>>
>>2856659
Just play warrior in DOS2, everyone is a mage there
>>
>>2866238
Which is extra funny because thats how it used to work.
The Magic-User got his hands on enemy spellbooks or spellscrolls in the same way the Fighter got his Vorpal Sword; as treasure.
Learning a new spell took you weeks if not months and cost a shitload of gold, there was no magic spellbuffet at level up, all you got was new spellslots, how you fill them was a you-problem. You can either go on a adventure and hope that you will find new spells and enough bling-bling to fund your studies or you can spent the next 8 months in your Tower/Magic Laboratory hoping that the dicegods are kind enough to let you create a new spell.
Which by the way, is how seamless the fluff and crunch were interwoven, because you didn't have to make up bullshit reasons as to why not everyone is a wizard despite magic being commonplace.


History is a circle.
>>
>>2866273
Yeah, that's what I'm referencing, the beginning of the archetype wasn't the garbage that WotC turned it into.
>>
>>2866259
it's a mechanic issue not a player one. for years they would release new rule books where the content for fighters would be stupid feats like +1 to hit vs golems while mages got lists full of new god powers. going back to the spellsword subject it doesn't even make sense to have a class for a fighter who enhances himself with magic because a every fighter is basically required to do that to not be useless.
>>
>>2861760
I'm so tired, by the thumbnail I thought this would be some weird cat eye/face.
>>
>>2866294
>buying splat books
lol, chump
>>
>>2865614
Let me explain.
You're playing total war and your archers are being threatened by the enemy. You as a player have many options. You can retreat your archers, screen them through a friendly line of infantry, or counter charge with cavalry. Now give your archers a sword and shield and make them decent melee fighters. They're no longer threatened. You as a player, do not get to or need to make any decision because your archers are a jack of all trades, so just leave them there. Let them brawl the threatening enemies who are already weakened by their arrows. There's no player freedom there.
It's the same principle with RPGs. Why play a warrior class when there's a fucking mystic knight who's objectively better? There's nothing freeing about making classic archetypes like "knight" "rogue" "wizard" completely irrelevant through snowflake mutt classes.
>>
>>2866065
>Use a table for hit locations
So DM fiat again?
>>2866238
>Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.
>>
>>2866415
Yeah, that's well after the archetype was created and it's bad design.
>>
>>2866453
It's not bad design when spells aren't fucked beyond repair.
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>>2866467
Spells can be little more fucked if they aren't given out like candy.
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>>2866453
yes the entire point I've been getting at is that the modern wizard concept is a metagamed corruption of the original with almost no connection to the archetypical wizard from folklore.
>>
>>2866415
>So DM fiat again?
Setting it up in advance and leaving it up to the whims of the dice is the opposite of fiat.
>>
>>2866727
No it isn't. The rule being fucking garbage that's going to pound martials in the ass way harder is besides the point, anyway, because
>Duration: 10 min./level (D)
>A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)
How are you supposed to hit the focus when they can have the spell active for 19 hours straight?
>>
>>2860217
In what universe is spellsword a "zommer"-ism?
>>
>>2866747
>The rule being fucking garbage that's going to pound martials in the ass way harder is besides the point
Ah yes, because fucking plate armor obviously breaks just as easily as a fragile jade circlet and monks obviously don't exist. I get that you're just being contrarian, but can you please try not to be retarded about it?
>How are you supposed to hit the focus when they can have the spell active for 19 hours straight?
>Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Are you running a campaign with level 114 characters or do your players always prepare several casts of that spell? Because normal players don't make feeling uncomfortable in their own body the core of their character.
And if a player does wants to be shapechanged for 19 hours straight, you either kick the obvious furfag or allow the player to spend the day as a dragon or whatever and wish him the best of luck in trying to navigate a dungeon's corridors, sneak around, and avoid attracting adventurers seeking to (s)lay the dragon(or rival dragons for that matter).
As to your question? Hitting the circlet would only happen during the moments where that guy isn't shapeshifted(especially if the party loses initiative), though I suppose you could just rule that it melding into one's new form means a skull fracture can still break the circlet, with such an action either reverting the transformation or leaving the caster stuck in their new form(or make a table to roll for the possible outcomes). The important thing is that you communicate these type of homebrew rules to your player in advance.
>>
>>2866788
It's not the plate armor you have to worry about. It's the magic items they need for utility to ensure they aren't fucked all the time.
>or do your players always prepare several casts of that spell?
It's literally the best spell in all of 3.5 unless you count Ice Assassin with the most broken interpretation possible.
>or allow the player to spend the day as a dragon or whatever and wish him the best of luck in trying to navigate a dungeon's corridors
Please read the spell.
>You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action.
>>
>>2866514
and my point is the complaints of quadratic wizards are because of a further deviation from the initial d&d archetype, which shouldn't be based on a passive archetype like the wise old man advisor because wizards are party members not aids to the hero's journey, since they diminshed a lot of the downsides of wizardry.
>>
>>2864147
>b-b-b-b-b-ut different spells means its totally different!
>projects being a stuttering bablbling retard
we get it you get nervous when you get a lot of (yous) this is your adrenaline rush you 450lb waste of lard.
>Right which is why none of you "Spellsword"-Faggots can mount a a proper counter-arguments while you seethe and shit and piss yourself impotently.
No I did you just ignore the fact they have different spell lists. You are retarded. This isn't just aesthetic but purely mechanical.
>uuuuuh there is this biiiiiiig difference ackshuually so big that we cannot explain because you will just prove me wrong!
>Embarrassing.
Quit trolling or pretending you play TTRPGs or RPGs you know these spell lists are different in every single game you've ever played with these classes. Only in systems like skyrims do you get to just use everything but those are purely classless.
>oh no anon was mean and made fun of my silly protagonist-aspirations and it just cut too deep oh no no no!
You're delusional seek help and lose weight.
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>>2866801
>It's not the plate armor you have to worry about. It's the magic items they need for utility to ensure they aren't fucked all the time.
Ah, the enchanted plate armor, the steel grappling hook, the belt of giant's strength that is worn underneath the plate armor and the... enchanted ring?
>>2866801
>It's literally the best spell in all of 3.5 unless you count Ice Assassin with the most broken interpretation possible.

>Please read
Right back at you.
>Like other spellcasters, a druid can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Druid. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. She does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.
Shapechange is a 9th level spell. A 3.5e Druid gets 1 of those at level 17 and may need to cancel the spell to fit through a narrow corridor. Also:
>The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action.
They can still get hit on the circlet if they lose initiative.
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>>2866849
>A 3.5e Druid gets 1 of those at level 17
More based on WIS. Wizards get 1 plus the specialization slot if they're Transmuters.
>and may need to cancel the spell to fit through a narrow corridor.
You're not reading the spell. Read it. They can change shape into anything else they qualify for as a free action. They don't need to cancel the spell, ever.
>They can still get hit on the circlet if they lose initiative.
Why would they cast it in combat?
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so are we ready to admit that 1e was superior?
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>>2866854
>More based on WIS. Wizards get 1 plus the specialization slot if they're Transmuters.
Starting ability score caps at 18-20 depending on what dice you use, you get a grand total of 1 ability point every 4 levels and you get your first extra 9th level spell at 28 WIS. Generally speaking, high WIS is not applicable without DM fiat or a campaign running way too far into the epic levels. But sure, wizards can get the specialization slot.

>You're not reading the spell. Read it. They can change shape into anything else they qualify for as a free action. They don't need to cancel the spell, ever.
Fair enough. That means their only worries while the spell is active are getting dispelled, entering an antimagic field, or needing to grab an item from their inventory.
It still has a limited duration, and if they want to use a 9th level spell slot beyond the first to prepare an extra shapechanging? That's a 9th level spell slot that I as the DM don't have to worry about them using in combat.

>Why would they cast it in combat?
Because a player only gets so many hours of shapechange before they need to make camp, because a party cannot always predict when combat starts, and because it can be assumed that the party wants to save their 9th level spells for when they are needed. Do you even play?
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>>2866849
You don't seem to understand how Shapechange works and are doubling down on retarded shit instead of reading the spell so I'm going to give you a very simple example of one of the many, many things you can do with it.

Druid 17 decides they want to go to the City of Brass. They've never been to the City of Brass, but their Wizard friend has and has described it to them before. They cast Shapechange and turn into a Bebilith. The following round, they Plane Shift onto the Plane of Fire using the Bebilith form's (su) Plane Shift, ignoring the focus requirement and thus being able to pick the plane at will because (su) abilities don't need a focus. They turn into a Lantern Archon upon arriving using the free action shift. The following round, they use the archon's (su) Greater Teleport to teleport to the gates and turn into an efreeti, gaining immunity to fire and a flight speed so they proceed to fly into the city proper.
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>>2866830
the original concept wizard didn't even last through ad&d. we have had super batman wizards for like 40 years now.
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>>2866877
meanwhile a level 17 fighter can attack an amazing 4 times a round. a d&d spell sword is basically just a regular wizard playing wrong as a joke.
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>>2866871
Most 9th level spells cannot be summed up as "do nearly anything you want every round for 3 hours as soon as you get it".
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All of this is redundant for vrpgs though, because martial characters are often better in those.
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>>2866871
>That means their only worries while the spell is active are getting dispelled
Yup. You can protect against this, though. Contingencies to dodge disjunction's area of effect, boosting caster level to become nearly immune to lower level dispels, ring of spell turning, whatever floats your boat.
>entering an antimagic field
Nope. AMFs has to have a line of effect to affect you. Block the source off with Wall of X and that's that.
>or needing to grab an item from their inventory.
Drop your stuff before you shift and pick it up after.
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>>2866889
only in jrpgs where the main character attacking with his sword and the magic guy teleporting you into the sun both do 9999 damage.
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>>2866877
>They cast Shapechange and turn into a Bebilith.
Okay, give me a DC35 knowledge check to see if you're not only knowledgeable about the spider demons in an academic sense but actually familiar with them. I'll give you the choice of whether you want it to be Religion or The Planes.
>They turn into a Lantern Archon upon arriving using the free action shift.
>While in the plane of fire.
Give another DC35 knowledge check on The Planes to see if you're sufficiently familiar with Lantern Archon biology. Also, the plane of fire burns you for 16 damage, which gets reduced to 6 by your damage reduction. How much health did you roll again?
>The following round, they use the archon's (su) Greater Teleport to teleport to the gates and turn into an efreeti.
As you teleport in front of the city, the efreeti near you are affected by your aura of menace and begin to look around. Roll to see whether or not they spot you before your next opportunity to shapeshift.
Also, I'd like another DC35 knowledge on The Planes if you please.
>proceed to fly into the city proper.
Assuming you haven't been spotted by anybody at this point, the efreeti guarding the city gate ask you something in their language. Assuming you managed to cast comprehend languages while touching an efreeti or piece of efreeti writing, you realize that they're asking to see your papers.
Anyway, while you're thinking about how you want to handle this, I'm going to go ahead and continue the adventure with the rest of the party.

>>2866886
Neither can shapechanging unless the DM lets you.
>>2866897
>Nope. AMFs has to have a line of effect to affect you. Block the source off with Wall of X and that's that.
Assuming they can spot the AMF in time? Sure.
>Drop your stuff before you shift and pick it up after.
Requires you to change into something large enough to carry the item, dextrous enough to handle it, and not too gaseous to carry the item. All of which limit the utility of shapechanging.
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>>2866917
It's DC 10+HD for familiarity and you're completely missing the point to be a fucking retard. Everything you've encountered is something you'll be familiar with automatically, too.
>Assuming they can spot the AMF in time?
Not even a problem by level 17.
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>>2866934
>Everything you've encountered is something you'll be familiar with automatically, too.
Having seen something before is sufficiently familiar for teleporting to a location, sure, but something you've encountered is not sufficiently familiar to cast sending, and having fought against someone wielding a weapon is not enough to become familiar with said weapon.
More to the point: Whether or not you're sufficiently familiar with specific species of Outsider depends on your character background and DM fiat. You don't just get to change into whatever you want willy-nilly.
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>>2866941
>but something you've encountered is not sufficiently familiar to cast sending
Yes it is.
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>>2866941
I don't care about a DM who is making shitty calls in contradiction of the obvious intent of the rules and neither should you.
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>>2866294
>it's a mechanic issue not a player one.
No its not.
Something isnt a mechanical issue if its only an issue if you have retards as players.

> for years they would release new rule books where the content for fighters would be stupid feats like +1 to hit vs golems while mages got lists full of new god powers
Oh honey.
A Wizard is god.
And smart players play him like god.
You let the fighter do his thing, you let the rogue do his thing, you let the cleric do his thing. You dont do their jobs for them. You are god. You stand-by, you support them, you influence things when shit is about to hit the fan.
You buff, you control the battlefield, you stun and you debuff.
What you dont do is going pew pew fireball unless the group is lacking in that department and they specifically want you to.
The reason so many players of other classes hate wizards is because many wizard-players havent learned to stay in in their lanes.
All of these god-powers arent an issue if youre not using them.

>going back to the spellsword subject it doesn't even make sense to have a class for a fighter who enhances himself with magic because a every fighter is basically required to do that to not be useless.
Thats retarded and you're retarded.
Unfortunately you are so retarded that you cant tell how you are exactly part of the problem as the above.
You are the very reason no amount of fixing game mechanics can fix dumb players.
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>>2866946
It is not. You need to be at least somewhat well acquainted with the target. Which is also an excellent excuse to have the players establish contacts.
Sending is not a magic replacement for telegrams, detect evil sometimes undercounts the number of bandits in the next room, and shapechanging is not carte blanche to do whatever you want. A bit of unreliability makes for better gameplay.
>>2866948
And the obvious intent behind Shapechange is not to give a player carte blanche over the monster manual, just like the Pun-Pun build is obviously violating the intent of the rules and detect city was never intended to be turned into a hypothetical nuke.
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>>2866960
>And the obvious intent behind Shapechange is not to give a player carte blanche over the monster manual
Which is why the familiarity clause exists. It also exists in Wild Shape under the exact same conditions and guess what happened when they actually defined what familiarity meant:
>The form chosen must be of an animal the druid has seen or could reasonably know about.
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>>2866966
And since Druids have dedicated their life to being one with nature and experts on the subject, they only have to roll the simple DC10+HD when determining whether or not they're familiar with a specific animal.
Now try to convince your DM that your druid grew up in a place where Bebilith, Archons, and Efreeti are part of the wildlife.
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>>2866980
That's what everyone gets to roll and your attempt to dodge that is noted.
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damn some of you guys are autists
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>>2867362
>some
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>>2860217
>>2862854
>>2864147
>all these (you)s
Based
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>>2867362
Even moot was thinking about leaving 4chan for a long time, I suspect most anons are the same cause we're a special bunch
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>>2866957
why is wizard designed to be god who has to hold back to not ruin the game for everyone else playing regular mortals? you're part of the problem.
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it's funny how you guys always say people cry about wizards being nerfed, but all you ever see is people crying about wizard being OP. i guess some people just get jealous when playing with others.
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>>2869196
>why is wizard designed to be god who has to hold back to not ruin the game
Because thats what god does.
Youre a midwit so the implications of this analogy obviously went right above your head.

> you're part of the problem.
Midwit see, midwit do.



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