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Pretty sure a lot of you hate it, but I'm bored. Any advice for classes or fun types of characters to play? I like spellblades if that helps.
>>
dont bother
just wait for baldurs gate 3
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>>2855659
magus is the spellblade
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>>2855659
>Pretty sure a lot of you hate it
I wonder where you got that idea
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>>2855662

Tranny's Gate 3 is never going to be finished
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>>2855659
I don't talk to plebs until they graduate to CoTW.
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>>2855659
None of the classes are fun to play because no matter what you choose you end up having to try to menage 6+ units in real time like this a rts but unlike a rts units dont have 1 or 2 abilities they have 10 abilities each with each of the having diffrent amounts of amunition that you need to recharge by resting while out of combat but also resting costs gold so you need to keep track of when its most worth it to reload your 70 abilities.
Cancer.
Uninstalled this shit like 3 hours in.
>>
>>2855678
i just turned down the difficulty and one shot everything with my fighter
>>
>>2855678
You can tell this guy really has like 600 hours in Pathfinder games, so he's trying to provoke its defense.
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>>2855678
It has a turn based mode retard
You don't have to pretend that you played it
>>
I haven't played tabletop Pathfinder, is it super easy to the point where they had to inflate the stats to create a challenge for cRPG players? Compared with something like the Gold Box games where the critters were straight from the tabletop manuals and it still had challenge.
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>>2855659
>Pretty sure a lot of you hate it, but I'm bored.
Nah, we had a couple of fairly long threads on it until recently. I definitely enjoyed it and WotR.
>Any advice for classes or fun types of characters to play? I like spellblades if that helps.
Magus is generally recommended as one of the stronger and funner classes in the game. Either Swordsaint or Eldritch Scion with a dip in that monk subclass for the Cha>AC bonus.
Might be a bit complicated for a first play through depending on whether you know the pathfinder rules or not (the game really throws you into the deep end without much guidance on how shit works).
Alternatively sorcerer going into eldeitch knight or dragon disciple can be an excellent spellblade with greater variety and stronger spells but more complicated to make work.

My first and so far only playthrough was as a sylvan sorcerer and I'd say they're pretty great for a beginner. You can basically have the pet carry you while you learn the ropes.

>General advice
Give all your melee characters the Outflank feat asap
Find ways to make your own side immune to your own AoE spells - stinking cloud+delay poison is broken af, same for freedom of movement+grease/web/etc.
There are some crazy difficulty spikes for particular encounter, Owlcat really aren't any good with balancing their shit.
You'll want a good amount of cash when you go shopping Pitax.
>>
>>2855678
huh? it has the opposite problem. by mid game you just select your whole group, cast haste, then watch as entire groups of things explode as you click on them. higher difficulties are just working around boosting your rolls high enough to hit things.

it's like the least bad of the normalfag crpgs but rtwp and awful maps/encounters still makes it pretty bad, and no turn based does not fix, they just slapped it in there without any balance or good ai
>>2855659
play challenging (core) difficulty, make sure a cleric is in your party, coup de grace kills trolls, magus is spellblade and it's a good class but has a a bit of micro. plan out your feats and spells beforehand.
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My advice is to take no advice from anyone in this thread and just play the fucking game.
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>>2855678
Just use heal lol
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>>2855701
>There are some crazy difficulty spikes for particular encounter, Owlcat really aren't any good with balancing their shit.
I think Owlcat is just particularly bad at telegraphing WHEN you should tackle certain encounters.
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>>2855827
that was when I decided to restart as defender of the true world and KILL ALL FEY SCUM
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Using Octavia with her Orc boyfriend along with the Gnome alchemist is the most fun you're going to have.

And don't make her a spellcaster. She is uber powerful as a martial flanker, and so it the Rego.
My favoutire build for Octavia
4 Rogue levels
5 Sword Saint levels
10 Duelist levels

My favourite build for Rego
4 Thug levels (very RP friendly)
16 Magus levels
>>
>>2855659
Depends on whether game's timed nature or Kingdom management filter you like they did a lot of people.
>>
Melee classes kick ass in this game.

Fighters Fucking awesome (except for the tower shield fighter)
Monks, fucking awesome.
Paladins, fucking awesome.
Slayers, fucking awesome.
Rangers, fucking awesome.


Spellcasters are lame as fuck. They are just crown control dispensers.
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>>2855874
hey, they buff too!
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shaken, frightened, sicken + infinite 1 round grease -> per round forced aoo = fun.
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I feel like a weirdo in these threads because I never multiclass.
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>>2855905
Pathfinder is about character building autism. That's the main draw.
>>
The biggest problem I had with pathfinder was the fanbase.
They kept yapping on and on about Kingdom management but never talk about the things that really matters = the Artisan system.

So my first playthrough was horribly suboptimal. I prioritised the quests with expiration dates instead of founding new villages in newly annexed regions.
And the artisan system was never explained to me so I didn't understand I needed the additional villages, and negotiating with each artisan from each village, and building their buildings.
>>
>>2855908
For you, for me it's very easy to have fun building within a class and using what I have to meet what I face. I feel like builds are a crutch for bad play.
>>
Hell I didn't even realise Bokken was an artisan even during the playthrough.

He just came across as a baddass NPC who gives me more awesomesauce items (for some strange reason) than the other NPCs, I shrugged it off as due to old friendship.
>>
>>2855908
Character building is not just multiclassing.
>>
>>2855926
Yup. This also becomes more apparent in the sequel when you have to think up many other combinations such as background and its associated bonuses, and the expanded feats list also enables much more varied builds even within 1 class.
>>
Second playthrough, I'm going to make Tristian a mystic theurge, and use him instead of Linzi.

What are some unironacally&surprisingly good weapons for the Monk?
>>
>>2856000
>I'm going to make Tristian a mystic theurge
Don't. MT is good on paper and at high level but getting there (most of the game) is shit. And in the end you have not so good divine and not so god arcane caster with horrible UI (you have two full sets of spells in cleric and sorcerer lists in spell selection panel)
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>>2856014
I know what I'm doing now, he's just going to be my grease / pit bot.
>>
>What are some unironacally&surprisingly good weapons for the Monk?
Pls respond.

Should I just give the Monk a 2 handed weapon so it amplifies with Power Attack and Dragon Style?
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>>2856035
Unarmed dragon style will work better with the fist scaling, honestly.
>>2856018
Losing the late level slots for metamagic and lv8/9 buffs hurts.
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>>2856043
>>Losing the late level slots for metamagic and lv8/9 buffs hurts.
It's a fair trade.
The cost is
One level 7 divine spell slot.
Two level 8 divine spell slot
Three level 9 divine spell slot.

The gain is 6 x spell slots for arcane levels 1-5.
And 4 x spell slits for arcane level 6.
that's a boat loaf of slots for Grease and Pits.
>>
Nevermind, I read the charts wrong. Apparently they configured the spell slot system in such a way that the Mystic Theurge will always lose all of the level 9 spell sslots.

Back to the drawing board.
>>
>>2856014
>Don't. MT is good on paper
It could be argued the Mystic theurge is weak in the first 7 levels.
Then he scale up like mad between level 7-17 when the party needs him the most.
And then he gets gradually weaker in the end compared to single class caster.
>>
>Mystic theurge is weak in the first 7 levels.
>Then he scale up like mad between level 7-17 when the party needs him the most.
*And then the game ends.
>>
>>2856054
Losing out spell progression and slots for heighten (if you want to keep using grease) is not ideal. Having Octavia or a merc Full arcane caster plus Tristian for divine shit just works better
Mystic theurge in kingmaker vanilla only makes sense as a concentrated buffbot essentially
>>
>>2856061
Yeah, you only progress 10 levels for both spellcasting classes.
In Wrath, Theurge is a bit more tolerable if you go lich or angel due to merge
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>>2856116
It's a tricky bitch system.
Cleric gets 2nd level spells at level 3.
Sorcerer doesn't get 2nd level until level 4. (needs to be Empyrael Sorcerer otherwise you don't get Wis modifier for Arcane)
So no matter how it's combined you can't get the level 9 spells because Cleric needs 17 levels for level 9 slots, and sorcerer needs 18 levels for level 9 slots.
>>
Oh shit, I just realised Harrim is the superior Mystic Theurge.
The Cleric channeling spells will be stuck at level 3, so the Selective Channeling feats chosen for Tristian becomes relatively worthless.

Whereas Harrim gets to wear Heavy armor. It's going to cost him some Arcane armor feats, but with some buffs he becomes a front line Mystic Theurge.
>>
>>2855897
does this even work above normal difficulty
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>>2856114
I think -3 to DC and a bit of delay isn't a deal breaker.

Remember you're an entire team, so you can start by using Tristian as a pure cleric and get awesome Channel energy from him.
Then you can replace Tristian with Mystic Theurge Harrim once he scales past Tristian.
Man just imagine Harrim fully armored with Divine Power and all the other cleric buffs pumping him up. Then the arcane spell casting on top of that shit as well.
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>>2856043
Since I'm not using Linzi maybe I should become a Sensei monk so I can still give some sort of Aura to the party.
>>
HOLY SHIT the sensei gets to use Wisdom modifier for attack rolls.

I wonder what sort of multiclassing options that enables.
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>>2855659
Magus is pretty sweet on turn based, but annoying to micromanage in rtwp.
But then the game is much more enjoyable in turn based mode in general, so go magus.
Switch back to rtwp to fight trash mobs though, it's quicker.
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Sensei 2
Cleric 18 + pet from animal domain.

This has to be the ultimate melee cleric build.
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Shit. Dragon Style requires 15 STR, and my Sensei only has 10 STR.

What do I do? Belts and buffs?
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Okay fuck the dragon Style.

Pummeling Style is actually perfect for the Sensei.
Plus this style adds Trip effect + Pounce effect to the monk.
>>
The Monk is a really interesting class to balance the feats around.

If I pick Dragon Style I'm point to be doing a lot of damage. Which means it's not so necessary to invest feats into Power Attack, and Cornugon Smash and Shatter Defense. I can use the feats on defensive things like Shake it Off, Blindfight etc.

If I pick Crane Style then I have a lot of defensive abilities. But I lack offensive power, so I can pick things like Shatter Defense and Power Attack, Dazzling Display, Cornugon Smash.
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>>2855659
Don't hyper optimize. Just play it. The only thing I might recommend is that one mod that makes all Kingdom actions take one turn. But, even then, don't overthink it. Just play.
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>>2856353
It's going to be challenging to play for the first time, but I agree.

Optimising is fun for 2nd+ playthroughs though.
My new Sensei build:
level 1:
level MBF: Combat Reflexes (Might as well get this so I can AoO when opponent falls/get up)
level 3: Combat Expertise (Required by Trip)
level 5: Trip (required by Pummeling Bully)
level 7: Pummeling Style (requires base attack 6)
level 9: Pummeling Bully (requires base attack 9)
level 11: Greater Trip (Might as well get that extra AoO when opponent falls)
level 13: Pummeling Charge (requires base attack 12)
level 15:
level 17:
level 19:
>>
Shit. the Pummeling Style is kind of expensive now that I think about it.
And it goes online so late into the game.

It's really no wonder the Crane Style and Dragon Style are more popular.
>>
>>2856382
>>2856380
Never really looked at pummeling style before.

If it works with weapons then I might need to respec my wotr legend sohei build to use it.
A free trip attempt every round would go nicely with the blind+disarms he's getting with every crit.
>>
>>2856423
I suspect it's multiple trip attempts every round.
But in WotR you're probably better off with a Sensei2/Cleric18 /Angel.

I'm currently trying to see if a Sensei2/Blight Druid18 makes sense in Kingmaker. It sounds interesting.
>>
>>2856426
Is it just me or are base druids kinda shit in pathfinder? The spell list seems lacking and wild shape is just awful. Seriously, am I missing something with wild shape?

Blight druid seems like it would be pretty useful in a game with so many monsters using natural attacks against you but losing a pet would hurt - are you still able to pick up an animal companion through your domain choices?
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>>2856436
Defender of the True World is the druid to go for because Fey make for a sizeable portion of enemies towards the end. I agree, losing the animal companion is not worth it as Blight druid.
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>>2856436
>are you still able to pick up an animal companion through your domain choices?
Nope.

But I'm still interested because of pic related.
Plus the Wild Hunts and other Fey are weak against Fortitude saves.
And boththe Miasma and Plaguebearer are Fortitide Saves.

>>2856441
Pic related will just make the Miasma effect that much more powerful.
The 2 Sensei levels will be a melee monster because of the Druid build's high Wisdom.
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>>2855852
>Suggesting the cuck and whore SJW bullshit henchmen

Kill yourself ASAP faggot.
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>>2856445
But it's tradition in these types of games to waifu the elves / half elves.
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>>2855659
>mfw it took me well over a month to realize I can build new towns
>>
>3 Fey surround you
>They think they have the advantage
>Heart of Ira dish out 6D6 damage per round in total
>Fey fails fortitude save
>Fey is sickened
>>–2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
>Fey is nauseated
>>Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.
This Blight Druid business is OP in Kingmaker.
>>
>>–2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
By the way this -2 also applies to combat maneuver defense.
So your Sensei 2 will Trip the shit out of these cunts.
>>
Another interesting combination is
Sensei 15 / Blight Druid 5.

You can still perform the Heart of Ira + Miasma maneuver. Plus you have enhanced bard aura, and the Mass Barkskin / Restoration from Sensei. Plus the upgraded attack dice for unarmed strike.
>>
>Sensei 15 / Blight Druid 5.
This one gets a significantly weaker DC for Miasma effect though.

Anyway, you should have 11 STR, so you can cast Bull's Strength and get 15 STR to qualify for Dragon Style.
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>>2856380
>melee build without outflank and improved critical
>fist build rather than high crit range weapon
>taking trip feats at all when pets exist
Hahahaha
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>>2856473
There are empty slots for customization.
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>>2856475
>outflank at level 15
>trip feats
>no weapon focus/dazzling/shatter
>using wisdom for attack rolls when strength is infinitely more stackable
Hahahaha
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>>2855659
>spellsword
try Magus to trigger spells with melee attacks or Inquisitor to have some kind of divine spellsword
either way, play on normal and learn the game. Also take Blind fight on every character, there is point in the game with insane difficulty spike where immunity for gaze attacks is very valuable. For party members, take ones that are easy to build
>Jubilost
just 20 lvls of Alchemist, bombs are great
>Regongar
16 levels of Magus and 4 lvl of Dragon Disciple to get that bonus STR
>Nok-Nok
he's great damage dealer, just level him as Knife Master
>Harrim
20 lvl cleric, just give him longspear so he stays out of threa range
>Jaethal
as undead she's immune to status many effects, like poison or stat drain. Give her 2 levels of Two-Handed Fighter, equip with fauchard and heavy armor and then take remaining levels as Inquisitor.
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>>2856476
There are lots of wisdom boosting gear.
The there are also 1 extra slots at level 1 if you are that desperate.
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>>2856266
Why should I play with?
>statinflation
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>>2855659
How viable is an evil character in Kingmaker?
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>>2856506
As long as you are not picking all the chaotic evil options that kill companions, artisans and quest givers early, you will be fine.
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>>2856454
gotta start over, anon
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>>2856506
try Lawful Evil, roleplaying as ruthless despot is cool.
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>>2856478
1) You can't take outflank at level 1.
2) The only wisdom boosts in this game are enhancement bonuses, which do not stack with one another. Whereas in the case of strength you have enhancement bonus from belt, size bonus up to +6 from legendary proportions, as well as another +2 morale bonus from the rage spell.
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>>2856676
Oh, there's also even the alchemical bonus which stacks on top of that, which you can access by taking even just one level of alchemist, unlike the wisdom bonus from cognatogen which requires at least two.
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>>2856676
The answer would have been to shift combat expertise to level 1, Trip to level 3, then outflank at level 5. And you would have gotten the same result. But hey let's omit that just to win internet points.

>Muh legendary proportions
Maybe I don't give a fuck about some spell I get after the game is ending.
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>>2856688
A lv 13 wizard/14 sorcerer/14 octavia gets it. That means you can easily get it during Barbarian assault
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>>2855668
*SNIFFFFFF*
Yeah, I can smell my PC melting from these "beautiful" graphics already!
>>
>>2856688
You still get enlarge person at literally level 1, which there is no wisdom equivalent of.

As for outflank, it should always be taken at the same time as when your 3/4 BAB characters get it, meaning level 7 at the earliest. Also again, I don't understand why the hell you're taking trip when pets exists, all it does is eat an action.
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>>2856692
>it should always be taken at the same time as when your 3/4 BAB characters get it
That's retarded, it would mean your monk will delay his pummeling strike which is the entire point of the build.
>I don't understand why the hell you're taking trip when pets exists
It's because you're retarded and don't understand the definition of prerequisite.
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>>2856436
>but losing a pet would hurt
How much would it actually hurt you if the Fey can neutralise the pet which lacks Blindfight?
If the opponent neutralists your pet, then the Fey Stalker ability becomes largely useless, doesn't it?
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>>2856898
I think echolocation works?
Jubi would cover it in that case
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>>2856909
Exxholocation prtects you from gaze? I don't think so.

So in the end the Fey Stalker isn't really that good for this particular game.
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>>2856914
It's been a while, but I think it gives the exact same benefits as blind fight. I never really bothered to check last run cause I just had the twins throw eruption, deadly earth etc in every room
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Fey Stalker doesn't stack with Linzi's buff.
That makes Defender of the True World largely non-spectacular.

What does that archetype have left?
Feybane which is decent +2 DC buff.
Enemy of the Fey which is also decent +2 attack/damage roll.
And immunity to Fey mind effects at the cost of immunity to poison.
>>
>>2856922
It's probably safest to assume it doesn't protect from gaze attacks.

So there is some merrits to the Blight Druid who can at least wreck Fey and all plants and animals with their AoE aura.
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>>2856929
>It's probably safest to assume it doesn't protect from gaze attacks.
Well, owlcat forums, steam and reddit seem to indicate that it does actually work for gazes too, from random google search
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>>2855909
Eeh Artisans are not very fun, their quests are very mid, they are infinite monney printers crafting weekly artifacts worth 10k+, and their masterpieces also kind of break the game, at least the trader bitch in your town. 5 charges Maximise Empower Spellimunity pierce is a stupid function for a wand to have...
I can see why you'd want to know this, but bleh I wish I didn't do it just wanting to 100% the game in my first run.
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>>2856986
>Eeh Artisans are not very fun
To some people the most fun part of these games is to find newer and better gear.
>>
character tier lists, go. for me its:

A tier: valerie, tristian
B tier: jubilost, linzi
C tier: harrim, ekundayo
D iter: octavia, ragnorak or whatever his name is, the tiefling and all other followers not mentioned
F tier: amiri, jaethal, nok-nok
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>>2857569
>valerie in A tier
>ekundayo in c tier
Really? Literally just give him the oversized bow and he will just slaughter everything.
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>>2857576
It could be he is not ranking them based on utility, just preference. Or that many companions can do decent job at killing but few are specced for tanking
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>>2855694
It's more that you have far greater potential to break the game if you know what you're doing.
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>>2857576
valerie is pretty and I want her to sit on my face so shes better. ekundayos solid, the stoic personality type is decent if not a bit boring.
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>>2857569
You mean
>S tier: My sorc's smilodon bro
>A tier: Twincest Red, Twincest Blue
>B tier: Valerie, Linzi
>C tier: Ekundayo, Amiri
>D tier: Everyone else
>F tier: Tristian
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>>2857569
nok-nok and jubilost are the strongest characters in the game by far. put them together and they will carry you through the whole game, even on unfair.
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>>2857685
>Rating companions based on strength instead of style, personality and coom
Ishiggydiggy
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>>2857688
Jubilost and Ekundayo are the best characters not only because of their usefulness but also for their personality, quest.
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>>2857688
>instead of style, personality and coom
none of that is good in pathfinder and only a literal transexual would care about owlcat characters
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>>2857927
This. The most """beloved""" by the average faggot in /vrpg/ is Linzi, by far the most intolerable, annoying, insufferable character ever written in a videogame. The best written, less annoying most enjoyable character owlcat makes are the ones made to be unlikable, like Regill and Juubilost
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>>2857688
Yeah nah, I don't want to waifu wank over a zoomer game. The strength of this game is entirely in its systems. Please kill yourself.
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>>2857929
>The most """beloved""" by the average faggot in /vrpg/ is Linzi
Are those Linzi posters in this thread with us right now?
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>>2857929
Companions is the worst part of Pf:K imo, some outright make the game worse.
Tiers
A : Other games should copy this
B : Good, A asset to the story
C : Has content = better than merc
D : I'd rather have a merc
F : A liability, should be rewritten.
The best companion in the game is Kanerah, she's based, funny and genneraly well written intro is strange tho.
She'd be real waifu material if she didn't fuck for power, but that's what lawful evil offers, and having her not do it wouldn't make sense. OP class B+
Blue goat is too naive to really be fun, and didn't say all that much, though I had both in party all game, Does it matter which is active? Over all she left a bit of a weak but cute impression, B-
Jubiliost is fine, his story goes somewhere, him beeing a asshole is often funny. also OP class B-
Tristian is anoying, whiny and effete, but has a lot of story which is almost good, he's still a bitch. C-
Linzi is fine. She's the chipper do-gooder type char. Some hate it, I don't hate it. B-
Valerie is too busy beeing a male warrior stereotype who's thing is that she's actually a woman and *pretty* to be anything else. But she's very useful, C-
Amiri is a whiny feminist powerfantasy bitch. All her story parts are packed with that trash and anoying. D-
Rog is kind of funny, his story is basic slave stuff which is fine but nothing more. C+
Octavia is a lustful whore, which is different and strange, it eventually just got anoying. Found prestige class too late so she was just a bit sub-par all game. C-
I disslike Harrim, his atitude makes him anoying. His story is fanfic stuff, his stats are bad. D
I never used Jaethal, maybe that's why her story just felt fail-edgy? Her self is another pleasure seeker? Fine I guess D+ as healing her is a pain.
I didn't use Ekun, just no space for him. Didn't like his quest much but he's ok. C
I disslike Nok-nok, having a goblin in a hero groups is dumb and his story is stupid. he's got good stats and some content though C-
>>
>>2858088
>amiri is a whiney feminist power trip
Really? Her quest reveals she is 100% bullshit
>>
>>2858114
I'm quite certain we had this same discussion on this board 1-2 years ago. We don't agree, and that is fine.
Yes she found the sword sneaking and didn't kill the giant or whatever. Yes she needs help in every part of her quest. She's still a male barbarian with a female pronoun, for no reason to make a "strong" female blah, who becomes the chieftain of the tribe, blah blah glass ceeling, blah hear me roar blah.
I hate those stories, slightgly subverting it by making her less mary-sue to where she needs a bit of help now and then doesn't really change the core of it.
It's so bad and pointlessly formulaic that it harms the game. At least parts of her story should had been rewritten, if they had had the rights to do so.
Which we also know they didn't, so whatever. She and the other weak snowflake companions are my largest complaint with the game as a whole.

The only other part I really don't like about the game is the dumb way mob difficulty pauses at Armags toomb, to not increase again untill House. Where it suddenly jumps to the level it should had been ramping towards during the events inbetween. Making everything feel really hard suddenly, because you didn't have to try for ~20 hours of gameplay.
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>>2858152
>we had this convo
No we didn't you schizo. I'm not who ever you were talking with before.
The fact that Amiri is literally full of shit and the fact that she would completely fail with out your help negates any claim she's a Mary Sue. She is also disliked or hated by most npcs also negating her Mary Sue status. I hate how people like you don't even know the terms your using.
It's fine to dislike the character because her personality is grating (it is) or her base class sucks (it does) or you dont like her story (its midling) but don't make shit up about a character to just hate on it.
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>Tank has fighting defensively buff cause he is critically missing. the mook right next to him.
>Thug scares mook away
>Tank has nothing to swing and miss at and loses buff.
>suddenly archers from far range can hit him.
>the mook comes back and hits him first.
>weapon switching takes a full round.
How to solve this problem?
>>
>>2858088
>Linzi is fine
Linzi is annoying because she's the writer's pet, she literally steals from the players and the game treats it like a joke even if you are Lawful Evil there's no way to punish her for it. She, despite being a literally who bard gets to crown the king despite having other sovereigns and several high priests to do it a fucking whore midge crowns you the king. Everytime she opens her damn mouth is like reading the script from Steven Universe, she's one of the two reasons I stopped playing KM. Fuck Linzi and fuck everyone who likes her
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>>2858088
>Octavia is a lustful whore
Why you have to be so rude Anon? Don't call her a whore just because you want to sleep with her.

>Valerie
>But she's very useful
Heresy.
Valerie made me seethe because she couldn't equip the Dueling gloves that are literally made for Fighters. Because he archtype is retarded and don't have even 1 weapon training.
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>>2858172
...I even said outright that she's "less of a mary sue" as she needs help.
But you latched on to that line and completely ignored my real complaint, which is the fact that this character is used to ham-fistedly force every player to read and process this moronic feminist narrative, in this medieval setting where it has no place.
Into a game I'm playing for my enjoyment.
Because this is not some mainstream news sermon where I expect to be talked down to by some two bit feminist writer spewing her oligarchy approvede talkingpoints (tm)

Which is why I'm complaining about it. I don't want this shit in any game, she's the lever to insert it, the game, and Amiri would be a lot better without retreadubg this inspid story, and her having at least a few femnine traits.

In the end, Octavia also is a vector for another feminist talking point. "sex-positivism" or whatever it's called, but at least that one is just "sluts are good" which fitts nicely inside the setting and doesn't come off as excessively on your nose preachy.

>>2858199
I don't hate Octavia it's just that one of her defining traits is to randomly say really lewd things that make it clear she really loves to fuck. Such as her argument with that priestess over who's orgies are better, or the whip, or... I'm certain there are at least a few more I've forgotten. Anyway, beeing really lewd is her bit, wether Charname has sex with her or not.
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>>2858227
>retreadubg
*retreading
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>>2858192
Eeeh she's not quite Divinity orignial sin 1 level of flippant liberal shithead writing. Which made me quit the game after the secound chapter both times I atempted to play it.

But yeah she does get away with a lot of stuff, and you can't kick her out and get anabelle or someone to replace her even if you're evil or just hate her.
You do have a point there...
>>
>>2858227
>less of a Mary Sue
She isn't by any metric a Mary Sue. Tard. I'm calling you out on that because you don't know the term you are using and are throwing it around to make your point more valid. It's a faggot way of making a point and you should stop. It devalues the rest of your points. Faggot.
>she's a feminist power trip!!!!
Yet, at every point of the game she requires you, the player... a male (unless you play as a woman like a tranny), to fix everything for her. She would completely and utterly fail with out you. She also is the reason why her tribe is wrecked by a ghost. You can even tell her off as the player and she needs help killing a pig! So how are you being talked down to by the writers anon?
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>>2858246
>So how are you being talked down to by the writers anon?
You know, you cannot rape her or slap her for correction
>>
>>2858088
>Amiri is a whiny feminist powerfantasy bitch
No that's Valerie
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>>2858890
>whoman crying about women fawning over her beauty but cries the moment she gets a scar
>the good end of her arc is realizing her stance of 'all art is worthless' is kinda retarded
>9 int
Sure
>>
>>2858890
the difference between amiri and valerie is that the barb bitch has a really bad voice actor, so it's far more annoying.
>>
>>2858899
Vals is, according to feminist narratives, "indoctrinated" into thinking that it's a bad thing to take advantage of your beauty to get ahead in society. That people should earn their praise and their stations. She quit the knights because they pampered her in all these excessive ways over her beauty. Because she thought that was wrong and wanted to be rewarded for merit instead.
In the end she embraces her beauty and the power it gives her.
It is the feminist anti-meritocratic argument and narrative, which obviously feminism needs, as women are worse than men at everything except beeing attractive and having children.

>>2858907
They are both vehicles for feminist narratives, the key difference is the angle of the feminist narrative they're written to push. The "women should be leaders" one is the more offensive and retarded one. As almost no woman is fit to be a leader, usualy even most beta men do a better job at it than the most competent women, and everyone knows this.

The "women should not be ashamed of getting things for looking pretty" is a far more reasonable line, and makes sense on a basic level. It only becomes problematic when it gets to university grading, or real succubus behaviour like say, Kamala Harris.

I think Amiris VA was given a bad lot, and does what she can with it. It's not a outstanding performance, but it's fine imo.

And as an inb4, I don't "hate women" I hate the idea that women should rule over men, which is insane and has, over the last 40 years proven just how destructive it is.
>>
got the game on sell but im not sure what class i wanna play. heard paladins are pretty meh. maybe a oracle melee build?
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>>2859054
Paladins are good, but number of evil enemies is kingmaker is pretty low especially late game (works against most bosses at least), so smite evil and mark of justice get less use. The auras are good support though. You go for a two hander or archer build and fire from safety, and you have good enough saves to not be bothered.
Hospitaler is a fun full fighter who heals the party well, but good parties should not get hurt much after a certain point.
Paladin is a very good lv2-3 dip fopr various reasons.

Paladin value goes up in Wrath since most enemeis are evil and they can get a pet
>>
>>2855659
Playing a spellblade now, it’s pretty fun. I just recently learned there may be a slight exploit in the game. If you make a round of attacks then use a quicken metamagic rod to make an additional spell attack- if that attack is a touch attack like vampiric touch- you get another full round of attacks.
>>
>>2856448
Yes, but you have the superior necromancer mommy elf and failing that, the hot tiefling twins if you're looking for something outside the box.
>>
>>2859059
i have been playing Around with builds. cant decided between two handed warrior/dragon disciple or thug/duelist.
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>>2859095
My personal opinions:
>two handed warrior build
Pure is pretty strong. You have one job, and that is to smack people around. You can either stop at 15 for greater power attack and splash 5 levels in things that give you quick bonuses or get the basic feats and up to greater weapon focus , backswing and weapon training at 9.
Enlarged and with a reach weapon, you will murder in a 20ft radius

> thug/duelist.
If you want to do duelist, I'd suggest you either go for a full bab class (which is essentially fighter or aldori defender) or for sword saint.
Though rogue 4 for finesse/uncanny dodge, some fighter levels and duelist is okay too

Generally, even if it is technically viable, rogue is the one class I would not suggest to anyone go for more than 10 levels even on normal or challenging
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>>2858928
>succubus behavior like say, Kamala Harris.
I feel like succubi would be offended by the comparison.
>>
>>2858928
Peak chudcel.
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>>2859107
i have decided. i will be a sword saint. what weapon should i focus on?
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>>2859133
Scimitar, estoc, bastard sword, fauchard or greataxe.
>>
>>2859133
Some pretty good dueling swords in the game. Two handed is pretty viable. Or rapiers.
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>>2856477
>Jaethal
>as undead she's immune to status many effects, like poison or stat drain. Give her 2 levels of Two-Handed Fighter, equip with fauchard and heavy armor and then take remaining levels as Inquisitor.

She's a pretty solid tank
3 inq/ ES 13 / 4DD.
or 3 inq / 17 SS
and she get to keep her scythe for extra style points.
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>>2859065
Jaethal doesn't let the baron mate with her.
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>>2858199
That's a Paizo problem. Like, legit Paizo. They didn't standardize language and they're retarded now.
>>2859326
Jaethal isn't fertile. And if you go the reincarnation route recall what happened to her last child.
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>>2859338
That doesn't matter regarding the point. If she won't let you mate with her, then she isn't affectionate to that degree. She would never be a good wife.
>>
>>2859344
It's implied in the ending slide if you let jaethal take over her daughter's body that you and jaethal fug alot.
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>>2859377
Ending slides are not enough. It needs to be done in-game.
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>>2859344
"Mating" and "fucking" are two very different things. Like "siring" and "parenting".
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>>2859392
The lolicons told me mating press is the same thing as sex.
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>>2855662
BG3 is scheduled for late 2023. That's if it's not delayed again. There's plenty of time for a few playthroughs of kingmaker.
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>>2855678
The game has a turn-based mode. Try using that if you're filtered by the real time with PAUSE mode.
> but unlike a rts units dont have 1 or 2 abilities they have 10 abilities
That's why there's the pause.
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>>2859404
I knew it. I left a YouTube comment on one of those BG3 videos from Larians channel about how bad the EA version is like a year ago and got dogpiled with cope and excuses. The game is a complete mess.
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Hungerseed is an exceptionally good class for the Pummeling style Monk.
The Motherless is a solid class for the Dragon style Monk.

Both classes are good for the Sensei as well.
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Shit. I can't fit Seize the Moment feal into this build. Something has to give.
Maybe if I play as a Human instead. That would be RP friendly since monks are typically humans.
But then I lose all of those cool Tiefling bonuses.
>level 1: Combat Expertise (Required by Trip)
>MBF: Combat Reflexes (Required by Seize the Moment)
>level 3: Trip (required by Pummeling Bully)
>level 5: Outflank
>level 7: Pummeling Style (requires base attack 6)
>level 9: Pummeling Bully (requires base attack 9)
>level 11: Greater Trip (Might as well get that extra AoO when opponent falls)
>level 13: Pummeling Charge (requires base attack 12)
>level 15:
>level 17:
>level 19:
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>>2859936
Seize the moment is 'Win More' at this point rather than necessary for the build
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>>2859939
Seize the moment is more a martial party thing where you might use something like a Mystic Theruge to cover both your divine and arcane buffs.
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>>2859942
That's the fun type of party where everybody does something kickass every second.

Harrim could be my Mystic Theurge, and since he has heavy armor + Steel soul he can have Seize the Moment in the frintline as well.
That frees up Octavia to be a badass Sword Saint.
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>>2859944
Don't make Harrim a mystic theruge. It's a terrible idea since he will miss out on his cleric levels. Make Tristian your Mystic Theruge. Hes never useful in combat, while Harrim is very useful in physical combat.
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>>2859954
Harrim doesn't have to be good in combat. He can cover all of the arcane crowd control needs. And I can still put him in the front line, he just won't damage as much, but still be better than nothing.

His function is to free up the arcane mage duty of another NPC.
Just like my Sensei function is to free up the Bard duty from Linzi.
Both of these functions adds 2 other melee capable NPCs into the party.
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>>2859936
outflank and seize the moment don't stack though, i thought. all you need is everyone with melee having outflank.
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>>2859959
In my opinion it wastes too much of what Harrim is good at to make him a MT.
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>>2859939
I have an idea, I can just delay Greater trip until level 15.
Then Seize the Moment can fit into level 11 slot.

The monk won't be a critical component of the Seize the moment systme anyway since he only crits on a 20. So level 11 isn't all that bad.
>>
>The monk won't be a critical component of the Seize the moment systme anyway since he only crits on a 20. So level 11 isn't all that bad.
But by this logic Seize the Moment could also just be delayed until level 15. Maybe that's the thing to do, since Greater Trip will guarantee an extra AoO more often.
>>
>>2855659
I'm going to finish this game someday, I've tried no fewer than a dozen times but I always get distracted by something else and put it on indefinite hold, then I come back to it months later only to get distracted again by something else. But I total will finish it one day, absolutely for sure, just not now, but soon, maybe after I finish with reborn.
>>
Kingmaker is fun, and WOTR improves upon it, but what WOTR fixes from Kingmaker it then bungles by missing what Kingmaker had that caused the problems.

Kingdom Management was involving if you were aiming to get everything done, you could rush the story, then do that stuff. There was lots to do (and a lot of copy-pasted one-shot zones), and you were time gated by bullshit like "This curse takes 90 days to research and only your High Priest can do it and I sure fucking hope nothing comes up he needs to handle in the mean time!"

WOTR does away with all of the time gating, planning, stressful bullshit... but then there's nothing to do, so you'll finish the adventuring gameplay side before the Crusade's even got going.
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>>2860131
I'm the sameboat. heck, I finished WotR before this one but I think the reason maybe why we keep abandoning the game is because the writing is dry.
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>>2860235
It had too many maps where there was only 1 opponent creature, and nothing else to do in the map.
That was kind of epidemic.
But I understand why they ended up that way. It's because they wanted numerous high quantity of locations so the world map ended up being about exploration of many locations.

I was also a bit disappointed in the Thornford.
I had expected it to be more...more Robin Hood and fantasy version of Notthingham forests, the kind of place with more treetop terrain and bridges between treetops. The kind of place where bandits and highway robbers rule the day, where armies of the Baron gets their ass handed to them if they venture too far.

Instead we got a little campfire, and a merry band of bandits enjoying their booze.
So yeah.
(The vest side of the Thornford was well made, those 2 bandits actually go into stealth if you try to attack them then evacuate away from their camp)
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Ah, now I understand why there is that Masterwork Nunchaku in the Aldori mansion.
It's a crutch for the Sensei archetype with how STR and high WIS. At level 1 they don't have their WIS bonus applied to base attack yet. So the Nunchaku helps them a little bit.
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This Trading post was kind of awesome. It even had watch towers, and they didn't use the opportunity to implement some sort of tower defense mini game with it.
>>
>>2856477
>>2859143
What about Attribute allocation?
She is melee character, but the game recommends I put points into Wisdom.

Isn't that a little bit weird?
>>
>>2860986
She's an inquisitor, they're a spellcaster who's spellcasting stat is Wisdom, that's why they recommend it. But it's not necessary.
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>>2860994
So I just go STR instead?

I'm not sure I want to go Sword Saint with her. because I already have high INT Octavia for Sword Saint.
Eldritch Scion might be possible, but I need to investigate this class first.

Leveling her up in Two Handed Fighter so she gets Backswing makes much more sense to me.
Plus the Fighter feats can select Teamwork feats too, so this benefits Solo Tactics a ton.
Plus I get 2-handed weapon training, which might work with the Dueling gloves, not sure about his one though. But I NEED someone in my party to be able to use those damn gloves.
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>Plus I get 2-handed weapon training, which might work with the Dueling gloves, not sure about his one though.
HOLY SHIEEEEEET it works.
It actually does work with 2-handed weapon training.

Giving Jaethal 7 levels in Two-Handed Fighter really does go a long way in this game.
Why didn't I just do this sooner? Fuck.
>>
I wish Tower-Shield Training worked with Dueling Gloves.
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>>2861001
Jaethal's main strength as an inquisitor will be teamwork feats, especially Outflank. You can keep pumping her strength and let items carry her Wisdom.

>>2861020
Oh if you've moved her out of Inquisitor to multi into Fighter? Yeah you pump strength. Another thing to give Jaethal a boost is to grab 1 level in Sorcerer, grab a Dragon bloodline and then grab 4 levels in Dragon Disciple. The Dragon Discipl levels will boost her stats, give her a breath weapon, and a bite attack on top of the scythe. It'll improve her all around.
>>
>>2860925
Yeah, this is definitely an issue Kingmaker had which was excusable with "Well it's their first game and they just wanna populate their world." That said, I prefer it to Wrath's "Also shittily populated area, but less of them and you have less to do all around."

Wrath's better in a lot of ways but man it fucked up some of the good from Kingmaker.
>>
There is so much synergy between Inquisitor <----> Fighter/Slayer.
The Inquisitor wants as many powerful teamwork feats as possible, and the Fighter and Slayer can provide this.
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>>2861032
I'm already thinking of doing that with Rego since he canonically has Clue Dragon blood..
Giving him 10 levels in Dragon Disciple will give him +4 Bite attacks.
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>>2861048
The inquisitor gets bonus teamwork feats for free in half his archetypes.
Slayer also gets combat style feats as extras, not teamwork ones

And aside from outflank, you really want what? The one for saves, maybe spell pen or shield wall depending on build?
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>>2861118
>Slayer also gets combat style feats as extras, not teamwork ones
That's a misunderstanding of the Slayer Talent.
A Slayer Talent lets you choose Combat trick->Teamwork feat, if you want that instead of Combat style feat.

>And aside from outflank, you really want what?
The second game has expanded feats list compared to the first game, so in the 3rd game who knows how many teamwork feats they will implement.
In the full system there is too many feats, and not enough slots available.
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I'm thinking of giving Jaethal shield-wall team feat, so the can shield-wall with Amiri, whose bastard sword actually is compatible with shield.
You just need to activate a different weapon slot, then you can add shield to it.

But does Solo Tactics apply its advantages to shield wall as well?
For example if I need to temporarily team up Jaethal with another character who does not have shield wall, nor a shield. Does the inquisitor's Solo Tactics still activate the Shield-wall feat?
>>
>>2861321
What? Amiri's Bastard Sword shouldn't be Shield Compatible.
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>>2861483
It is.
Try to activate her 3rd weapon slot.
Then equip shield to 4th weapon slot.
Then activate her 4th weapon slot.

BANG, 2-handed sword + shield.
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Should I turn Jubilost into a melee Alchemist and make him join the Seize the Moment party?
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>>2861503
You could but honestly Jubi is great as he is, a windmill of death and bombs.
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>>2861321
You do not need a teammate to make shield wall work with jaethal.
>>
It's really weird with Slayer Talents.
I can pick almost any of the Teamwork feats through Combat Trick.
But I can't find "Shake it Off" inside Combat Trick. It's arguaby the most important teamwork feat.
>>
>>2861503
no need to, level him as pure Alchemist, keep safe from melee and let him nuke everything with bombs. I gave him pure dps items (e.g. 2x ring that boosts bomb damage) and he out-dps rest of the party
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>>2861584
But her grows wings if I make him a melee alchemist, means he can walk all over the grease spell unaffected.
Plus he gets a bite attack as well.
Plus I can make him almost immune to crits. And immune to cold and paralysis.
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>>2861586
>wings
imagine that grumpy gnome, flying above you and scolding you for your intellectual inferiority
>>
>>2861590
Jubi's Cameo in WOTR is great, he just shit talks all your party members, then reveals he's actually from 100 years in the future and asked Shyka to warp him back in time to interview you.
>>
>>2855678
>because no matter what you choose you end up having to try to menage 6+ units in real time like this a rts but unlike a rts units dont have 1 or 2 abilities
oh no... you're supposed to avoid mentioning this rtwp. otherwise you just out yourself as an idiot with potato reflexes. Mask your incompetence next time, sweety. Use arguments like "tabletop is TB therefore the game should TB". Or "TB mode feels more authentic and """"tactical"""".
>>
>>2862322
>muh apm
this is who bg brought into the genre.
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>>2862356
There is no APM when you have the pause button. You're just too dumb to understand this.

In pen and paper they take turns out of necessity, not because they love waiting 20 minutes doing nothing while the other people around the table is talking.
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>>2862393
Then why mention reflexes or skill?
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>>2862445
You need that when you're dumb enough to play without pause button.
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>>2862393
Actually I much prefer turns because you can do much more intricate shit than rtwp. Also turns shouldn't take crazy long with no interaction. If the party is talking they're talking. If it's just one person taking forever you give them a time limit.
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>>2862461
>If the party is talking they're talking. If it's just one person taking forever you give them a time limit.
Either way the point stands. Nobody enjoys waiting for their turn. That's not why they are playing. It's a relic that's done out of necessity.

>Actually I much prefer turns because
It's because you don't get any advantage from charging an opponent in real time, because the charge/pounce command puts you into a dumb cooldown timer that freeze your character while the enemy is wrecking you.
If there was more OP advantages in real time that's the one you would be playing.
>>
>>2862465
turn-based is controlling rather than herding. it's really just personal preference, you don't have to make up shit about it. tabletop has nothing to do with video games where you control the entire party anyway.
>>
>>2862465
what the fuck are you responding to?
>>
>>2862465
Real time offers easier positioning to get everyoen next to the enemy for instant flanking/outflank shenanigans, makes it easier to have multiple enemies run into the same hole/target same character (rather than having to manipulate initiative/turn order) and lets you easily cancel actions and maneuver characters to get out of effs if necessary.

Though the fact that you describe precise controller as the ruleset intended as 'OP advantages' is pretty telling
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>>2862473
>tabletop has nothing to do with video games where you control the entire party anyway.
That doesn't stop the larian ceo and his shills from using that exact argument for why turn based is better.
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>>2862476
>as the ruleset intended
Intended, due to the necessity of how things work in a conversation.
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>>2862465
I charge all the time in realtime. mostly as a gap closer. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "putting you in a cooldown timer", It just makes you wait for your next 6 second turn to start since it's a full round action. How is that any different from having to wait your next turn to charge in TB?
>>
>>2862490
The fact that you had to freeze for 6 seconds means your charge is no more effecting than stanrd move action + single attack action, and subsequent full attack.
>>
>>2862492
Having it be a full 6 seconds is pretty rare though. It's only the worst case scenario. Most of the time a character will have just finished doing/killing something, you'll see there's like 1-3 seconds or whatever left until the start of his next round, and I'll just queue up a charge and he'll go at it 2 seconds later.
>>
>>2862477
it's arguably better for video games though, because you don't wait as long for your turn.
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>>2862505
But they argue that it's better because it's using in the conversation games. And that argument is bullshit.
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>>2862510
who cares what some tard says? two wrongs don't make a right.
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>>2862511
I care. Because I lost a real time game to a bunch of dumb faggots who likes to do everything turn by turn.
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>>2862512
lol, you lost nothing. not everything has to be for you, and if it's because the name of bg, that's just a label they can slap anywhere, it means nothing.
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>>2862523
Yeah fuck you too.
>>
>>2862524
well, you'll keep getting manipulated by branding if you can't let go and realize these things are transferable and meaningless, anon.
>>
>>2862492
You don't even know the ruleset you're complaining about.
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>>2862492
I tend to agree about charge, however:
>this game is LONG if you do everything and I mean LONG and that's WITH RWTP
>RWTP makes the game more about the strength and resource longevity of your party build than moment to moment tactics

I barely buff anymore, it's just blur and mirror for the MC and a haste if the fight is "hard". MT endless burning arc and controlled fireball tristian, bomber jub, and bloodhunter ekun absolutely destroy everything that was somehow missed by rake/archae/ad mc, invuln barb amiri, and warpriest jaethal. Everything just drops dead now and I never rest unless I need a worldspeed buff.

In turn based this game would take eons to do all the content. I have nothing against turn based itself, and this particular turn based mode is a good one which I liked, and used early on to tactic my way out of harder fights when I knew slightly less about build abuse. We have just arrived at the point in which the scope of modern content completely outpaces turn based modes at this point. It's another reason I prefer ARPGs, if they're not going to build AI that can match the complexity of the build systems to make RWTP more interesting that is.
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>>2862492
Oh, the other point about charge in RWTP is it allows me to micromanage less is the real value, even with the janky engine delay since they'll charge to new targets after the old one splatters. Mostly prefer to just run the MC and swap MT to the next fireball rack is about the most effort I put forth on micro now.
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>>2862596
>scope of modern content completely outpaces turn based modes at this point
i've heard this sentiment so many times over the years, people who take their tastes and posit them as some kind of evolutionary inevitability
>>
>>2857683
shit taste
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>>2860248
>I finished WotR before this
I finished WotR 4 times now. Still never made it passed chapter 3 in Kingmaker.
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>>2862596
If you use a extend metamagic rod you can pretty much cast one Haste as you enter areas and the just clear them out under the influence of that single buff once you get some levels under your belt.

There's also no other good use for extend and you end up with 2-3 of them just from loot anyway...
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>>2862596
People that play RPGs were very angry that Pathfinder was not turn based, which was why the mode was added in the first place. You are not using half of 3.5e mechanics in this game because they don't work well in rtwp. The encounters are designed around rtwp, haste mauling in a game design issue because it is rtwp first and foremost.
>>
Just did this event with Linzi being one of the targets. Fortunately turn-based mode is legitimately broken and was able to just kite the soul eater to death by vanishing over and over.
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>>2863779
Forgot pic.
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>>2855662

Except that Baldur's Gate 3 is using shit edition D&D and has no real relationship with the original Baldur's Gate games in either narrative or gameplay. And it's created by Larien, who were responsible for producing the rotten feces which was DOS2...

Meanwhile, Kingmaker is an actually interesting story with actually interesting companions who each experience a distinctly unique and fully-fleshed character development. Kingmaker also has robust mod support and far more content in it than BG3 will ever have... if it ever actually launches. And then of course there's the elephant in the room that Pathfinder 1e is objectively the superior mechanical system, and Kingmaker actually implements the tabletop rules almost exactly perfectly.
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>>2863802
>Kingmaker actually implements the tabletop rules almost exactly perfectly
Lets not get carried away.
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>>2855694

Tabletop games don't have an innate difficulty since difficulty is only meaningful when compared against the ability of the players.

In a tabletop environment, players have a huge huge huge backlog of material to pull mechanics from, and most GMs only exercise very limited oversight. Which means that players acting in bad faith can "optimize" their builds to intentionally break the game since most GMs simply do not want to have to make running the game a full-time job in order to balance it.

In a cRPG, players' build options are hard-defined from the get-go, and everything can therefore be balanced against completely-known player performance range.

The thing about Pathfinder as a ruleset is that "stat inflation" is just not how monsters are made dangerous. It just isn't.

In Kingmaker, since it's an open-world story, you can sometimes wander into areas that you might theoretically be able to optimize a party to deal with but which is actually populated by challenges you should wait to confront until later if you aren't crazy optimized and already aware of what lies in wait there. This isn't "stat inflation". It's you encountering an optional level of challenge earlier than you otherwise "should" if you waited instead.

Even sticking to the strictly level-appropriate encounters, you can get TPK'd if you don't know what you're doing by the time you get there (which you should, since the first few commonly deadly encounters aren't until like level 5 - 6). If the party isn't wiped, though, Raise Dead scrolls are expensive at early levels but not unavailable. What makes those specific encounters deadly is not stat inflation, it's the fact that they're surprises and you might not be prepared to deal with those specific mechanics at that moment.
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>>2855859

You can literally just turn Kingdom Management off in the settings and never have to do it....

It's always been like that.
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>>2855911

They are a crutch for bad play.

The truth is, there's only like two multiclass builds which have even any debate about whether they're worth doing. For all others, Pathfinder effectively removed multiclassing from play.
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>>2856014

MT is not good on paper or otherwise. It has literally been thoroughly understood as a noob trap option for more than twenty years at this point.

And when I say noob trap, I mean to say that it's been proven to be worse than not even bringing that character along for an adventure. Not, like, people don't like it. I mean that it has been PROVEN.

Your GM has to go out of their to customize encounters and make up homebrew stuff just for the sake of the MT to not ruin the party. And there is none of that in a computer game.
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>>2863817
So there's no set statistics for monsters? I've heard many people say that monsters in these cRPGs have stats well above what they would in a tabletop campaign. Personally, I find the game of middling difficulty because I maintain preparedness, scout ahead, and don't bash my head against walls. But if this is what people complain about who play the tabletop, then that shit must be really easy or they are just bad at rpgs.
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>>2856124

What kind of fucking moron uses Sorcerer to enter Mystic Theurge...?!

What the actual FUCK.

People need to shut the fuck up and not talk about things when they have no fucking idea what they're talking about.

Also, this isn't the tabletop. There's only like two level 9 spells that might be worth the action economy to cast. There isn't any kind of open-ended use for Wish or possibility of negotiating with a Gated demon or anything like that. It's the open-ended narrative-affecting spells that made level 9s important in tabletop. In this game they're just kind of ... shitty, honestly.
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>>2856506

"Viable" is mmoshit style language and is a concept you need to kill yourself for believing in.
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>>2863840
>>What kind of fucking moron uses Sorcerer to enter Mystic Theurge...?!
There are several advantages of doing this.
The wizards archpetypes in this game don't use Wisdom to cast their spells, and most of the sorcerers don't either.
But the Empyreal Sorcerer DOES use Wisdom, just like the cleric does. And so this will give you a ton of benefits when you want to bypass the opponent's saving throws.

>People need to shut the fuck up and not talk about things when they have no fucking idea what they're talking about.
Secondly, all of your cleric's level 1, 2 3, 4, 5 spells all become converted to Sorcerer spontaneous spell pool. Which is a HUUUUGE advantage over any shitty wizard.

>Also, this isn't the tabletop
Anon just stop pretending you ar ean expert at this game, or even an expert on table top.
You clearly don't know many things about thus system, you probably never even played the game.
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>>2863834

Whatever is published in the bestiary doesn't matter because the GM decides which monsters to put in front of you. It doesn't matter if a Shadow is CR 2 if the GM feels like putting twenty of them in a room or just using a CR 11 Lich instead.

There's also a lot of environmental context that can't be captured by a bestiary's Challenge Rating. Like if you have to fight those twenty Shadows while in pitch black supernatural darkness and all your party members are deafened so they can't hear each other screaming and you have a 20% chance to fail your spellcasting if it requires a verbal component. And it's raining men and the floor is lava or whatever.

Challenge Rating and statblocks and all of that were only ever guidelines to help GMs estimate things. There never was and can never be an actual system to define everything perfectly in a tabletop setting. That's the entire point of it being a tabletop game.
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>>2863849

Go back to 2003 with that shitty image macro.

You have no idea what you're talking about and you just doubled down on it to prove it even harder.

Hint: you contradict yourself when you bitch and moan about losing level 9s and then you try to justify doing the exact thing that made you lose those level 9s in the first place.

Fucking moron. Fucking MORON. Just wow. Go outside. Get some self-awareness. Read a book.

Maybe even the basic rulebook, if you're feeling like a big kid and you want to move on from Harry Potter.
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>>2863855
You just got raped Anon. It's time to move on to a new thread.
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>>2863857

Fantasizing about raping me is the closest you'll ever come to breeding, and I don't even have a vagina. But your attraction is appreciated.

Please tell us all again how you are so desperate to move everything to Wisdom in order to save ability score points to buy....??? What exactly are you buying with those points that you saved by not raising Intelligence? Because it certainly isn't skill points.

And on a character whose sole purpose is having all the possible spells, casting buffs and healing people, it's strange that you're desperate to limit their range and progression of spells known by using Sorcerer.

Please tell us all how it's so superior and yet so terrible to use Sorcerer and lose your level 9s because you are so bad at the game that you can't make any decisions about what spells to prepare on a buffbot?

Another hint: higher level spells have better save DCs, too. Good luck using your level 1 Grease when you're at character level 7, though.
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>>2863868
>What exactly are you buying with those points that you saved by not raising Intelligence?
Every +2 points into wisdom is +1 DC to the sorcerer spells + cleric spells

>And on a character whose sole purpose is having all the possible spells, casting buffs and healing people
And they will still have that. Those who already played these games know what spells they like. And the bonus of converting most of your cleric spells into the spontaneous casting pool frees up thecleric spell slots so you only ever have to pick the few cleric spells that are the most powerful. The rest of the cleric spells go into the sorcerer spell pool with sorcerer's DC.

>Please tell us all how it's so superior
I already did.

>Another hint: higher level spells have better save DCs, too
I have level 8 spell slots, and much superior attribute score, so I will always win against whatever crippled Mystic Theurge you dreamt up.
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>>2863875

... I'm gonna try to use small words for you.

If you want to cast offensive crowd control spells, Mystic Theurge is the specific, exactly incorrect thing to do for that.

Raising your save DCs is not important for a buff bot. It just isn't. And if it were even possible to get maximized save DCs on such a character, that would be wildly imbalanced and should be immediately nerfed to make it impossible.

As it happens, it's still possible to get the same save DCs as a single-classed character in whichever spellcasting class you want to prioritize since you can choose where to put your bumps from leveling up. And you can start with 18s in both Int and Wis. Wis is a terrible stat to choose because it otherwise only affects your Will save (which is already crazy high from your classes) and specific skills (which you're already crazy good at because they're class skills). In other words, choosing to give up skills when you don't have to is stupid. Saving those ability score points to buy Strength or what the fuck ever is extra stupid because you're a Mystic Theurge and your entire character concept is that you do literally nothing but casting spells.

Sorcerers can't know all the spells they will need to know if they want to be buff bots. Wizards can. And Wizards get those spells sooner. Which makes an extra difference for Mystic Theurge which is already delayed. And if you're concerned about accessing level 9s, you should be extra concerned because Mass Heal is level 9 and is the only level 9 spell in the game that has any theoretical use (if you don't want to buy scrolls). And you don't need maxed Wis to cast Mass Heal. Clerics do not have any useful crowd control spells other than Sound Burst which isn't useful past level 6 anyway. For the record though, Sound Burst is more powerful than any other spell in the arcane repertoire until you get Slow at SL3 or Confusion at SL4 depending on the monster you're fighting.
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>>2863883
>If you want to cast offensive crowd control spells, Mystic Theurge is the specific, exactly incorrect thing to do for that.
Nah, the crowd control spell just needs to be good enough, it doesn't have to be top peak super +50 DC.
That's why you're so wrong and gay.

You lost, and you're too embarrassed to post your own Mystic Theurge build because you know everybody would laugh at you.
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>>2863875

Furthermore, you do not have a superior attribute score. You just wasted potential. You would end up with exactly the same Wisdom as a Wiz/Clr would end up with Int because you can't just arbitrarily raise your scores in the beginning. You can't buy above 18. And you can afford to raise two to 18. So you should choose to have both Int and Wis, not just Wis.

You don't "win" anything because you end up missing the most powerful spell level (according to you), and you get access to all of your spells slower, which means you're automatically inferior in ALL of the use cases you intended to create this MT for.

And in exchange the only thing you could even theoretically have gained is not needing to choose which spells you prepare. Which comes at the expense of only being able to know two or three of a given level - AND NOT BEING ABLE TO CHANGE THOSE.

And just for the record, you absolutely will have to change those in order to function as a support character since the demands of encounters will change many times during the game.

Sorcerer cannot function in this game as a support character. No. It isn't possible. Period.

And no, just because you have this weird obsession with Sorcerer doesn't mean you're valid. It's not a competition. This isn't a competition. You're just fucking wrong.

Go deal with it into that nasty sock under your bed with the lipstick on it.
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>>2863887

No one here is worried about impressing anyone ... except you. You're desperate to make this into some kind of competition with that hilarious kindergarten "I dare you" bullshit.

And you can't even stick to a point.

First you want to insist that you have to maximize your save DCs and now you're saying maximizing DCs doesn't matter at all.

And apparently you aren't developed enough to understand that you're not getting away with any of it. No one is fooled. We're not bamboozled by the clever crafty switcheroo. Shut the fuck up, kid. You're up past your bedtime.
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>>2863893
>And you can afford to raise two to 18
18 will always be inferior to 20.
Plus your two 18 attributes will hurt other things like constritution, dex, str, etc.

Your mystic theurge is a loser, Anon. Just like you.
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>>2863898
>now you're saying maximizing DCs doesn't matter at all.
Maximising DC was never the priority of the mytic theurge. Their DC just have to be good enough.
And mine is better "good enough" than yours are.
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>>2863899

You can't reach 20 at character creation. No one can.

Whatever racial modifier you add will go on top of that 18.

In other words, starting at 18 is the best you can hope for no matter what anyway - and if you'd ever played the game, you'd know that.

But sure, try to call everyone a loser. We've never even heard of projection so we don't know how to interpret your emotional breakdown after you've realized that you're shitty at your favorite autistic obsession.
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>>2863901

No it isn't. Yours is exactly the same but you've paid a hundred skill points for it, whereas I haven't.

And if you had ever played the game, you would have immediately recognized that.

You've never played the game. And now we all know. You've maybe read some shitty idiot's guide, but you don't even know what you're talking about because they didn't know what they're talking about.
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>>2863910
>>You can't reach 20 at character creation
I already did.
And at level 20 I will have 25 Wisdom, which is +7 to the DC. Plus all of the items that boost my Wisdom.

Meanwhile you will have 21 Int and 20 Wis when you are character level 20.You're at -2 DC compared to me at both disciplines.
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>>2863914
>m-m-muh skill points
That's not the priority of the Mystic Theurge. Spellcasting is the priority.

Skill points can easily be covered by the other 5 characters.
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>>2863917

You already didn't. You just tried to lie and then you got caught in the lie and now you're trying to pretend that what I said is what you meant all along, except that it would undermine your original point... so you're trying to distract from that with a feigned posture of superiority.

Which isn't working, because adults have an attention span sufficient to have kept track of the conversational context.

Then you go on to make assumptions about how I'm supposed to build because you don't like the fact that the cleric spell list isn't used for offense... which is why it's the cleric spell list, not the arcane spell list.

You don't waste points in Wisdom when you make a Wiz/Clr MT, that's fucking stupid - which is why you assumed it's how to do it.

You start with 18s in both, put them into Int during leveling. You have complete control over your choice of race, so your racial goes to Int, too. You end up with the same save DCs... but you also end up with spell level 9 and you've had access to higher level spells all throughout your game. And a wider selection of spells, too.

All you've done is exhaustively demonstrate that you've had no idea what's going on here all along.

I don't find it amusing. It's just painful to watch you. You're dismissed. You may go spread misinformation and whatever somewhere else.
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>>2863921

Being able to buy those skills doesn't cost you spellcasting if you make the right choice.

Which you clearly don't understand.

And saying "it can be done by others" is a fucking stupid failure of an argument to attempt.

Anything can be done by other characters. Why fucking bother making a Mystic Theurge? You could just make a single class caster and let the other five characters cover the other spell list.

Fucking idiot.
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>>2863931
It's over Anon, you picked an argument you were always going to lose.
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>>2863934
>if you make the right choice.
The right choice is the one that let me have +7 to my sorcerer DC and Cleric DC at character level 16.
That's why I win wile you just have an inferior mystic theurge with some overlapping skills which your other characters already have.
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Frens shouldn't fight. Frens should hug.
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>>2863939
The dum cat eventually realised it's been tricked into cleaning the fur of its food.
Hahahhaha, what a dumb cat.
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>>2863939
How about you fuck off nigger
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>>2863945
Don't be rude.
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>>2863945
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>>2863945
>>2863949
lol
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Anons, is it mandatory to choose a scimitar as a magus weapon due to the 18-20 crit range? There are so many more nice longswords in this game, yet everywhere I look I see everyone recommending the scimitar.

Is it that much of a difference wielding a scimitar compared to any other one-armed weapon as a Magus?
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>>2864386
Recommendations for weps, classes, dips, etc... come from unfair dick measuring fags. If your playing on core like a Chad should you can literally choose whatever weapon you desire and have fun.
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>>2864399
As long as you don't want to play anything that focuses on a Rapier. The +4 one from the shop is the best you'll ever find, so avoid rapiers. You'll be fine with any other weapon though.
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>>2864386
no, magus is the retard class. just equip whatever 1h does the most damage
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>>2864386
I specialized in the great axe and I crit on 17. Get the keen weapon enhancement ability as a magus and the vanquisher great axe
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>>2864386
im using an elven curve sword beacuse fuck it, i want my katana.
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>>2864386
Scimitar and rapier perform pretty much the same. Fauchard is ridiculous if you don't care about spell combat.
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Ive been playing BG1-2 with SCS for the first time, just got to BG2 now and I kind of want to get ready to play PFKM, All RTWP preferably with a decent difficulty
I see some big problems though
>difficulty just bloats their stats, bosses just have flat out immunity to 90% of damage/effects and permanent buffs that cant be dispelled
>have to minmax to make DC spells work
>extreme lack of super wizard battles, spell protections seem weak
this really sucks

the biggest thing that sucks is the whole spell DC system
maybe I'm just doing something wrong but it feels like most enemies just have like +15 to every save so I have to minmax one school of magic just for a CHANCE that a spell hits
mabye in BG I never noticed the same thing because it was all in the background but something just doesnt feel right about the games "difficulty"
I just wanna be a magic man bros....
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>>2857569
Huh I usually go for
>S tier: Merc 1, Merc 2, Merc 3, Merc 4, Merc 5
>F: tier, Everyone one else
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>>2864386
I usually go for Fauchard
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>>2866793
Can you name the mercs? Because I found a portraits pack about PF iconics and would like to recreate some of them (like my PF waifu Seoni)
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>>2867006
Not him, but I always advice 1 Aasimar because they have the halo which provides free torch-effect without actually wasting your weapon slot on a torch.
And 1 tiefling melee because one of them have an additional Bite attack that stacks op top of other cite attacks from classes and feats.
Generally 1 from each race is a good way to cover all bases.

That said I still prefer using the existing NPCs.
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>>2867011
You can just use the light cantrip from one divine caster
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>>2867014
Manual work isn't worth it. That's like saying I could just easily use a torch, but it's added manual work.
The Aasimar does it automatically.
>>
On p&p you just say "I want to cast light", and boom, it's done.

Owlcat failed to translate this ease of action into the game.
It's bad because it's essentially a freebie spell which you have infinite casts of, they should have let the player automate that thing more easily.
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>>2867026
While my first toon was a Aisimar, and having in the party did make this miniscule part automatic, Light is a cantrip which you always can cast with two clicks of a button. That's as close as you'll ever get to the CRPG equivalent of saying you're casting light...
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>>2867063
>That's as close as you'll ever get to the CRPG equivalent of
Nah. In Final Fantasy 12 they let you pre-program your entire party with gambits.
So you set a condition for example Team mate HP>50% -> Cast Protect on that person every time Protect runs out.
And that can be repeated multiple times until you have a super buffed team that is always buffed by Protect, Shell, Reflect, etc.

In BG2 they also have a script system where you could select particular behaviors for each character.
Owlcat could have at least implemented that if they didn't was to give us automation for the infinite cantrips.
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>>2867063
By the say, depending on who is the GM, sometimes they also let you have permanent Light spell on. Since the "I want to cast light spell" is more of a formality than anything.
So they allow that type of automation on p&p too.
>>
What spells should I pick for my Sword Saint?

1 Touch attack spell + the rest utility spell for each level?
or
2 Touch attack spell + the rest utility spell?
or?
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>>2867241
You know sword saint can learn spells from scrolls ,right?
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>>2867246
That's pretty cool.
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>>2867026
Wotr has an excellent buff mod
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>>2866771
>most enemies just have like +15 to every save
lol
prepare yourself mentally for wrath of the righteous (but stacking DC is much easier too)
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>>2858179
Skip the thug dip, only shaken actually gives mechanical advantage with regards to shatter defenses and can be triggered instead with cornugon smash, dreadful carnage or ideally a cleric/wizard with frightful aspect, since frightful aspect does not allow the enemies to save against it.
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>>2867006
Yes you can name them
>>2867011
I run a full team of Aasimars
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>>2866771
Just bite the bullet and make a party full of martials.
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>>2867689
That's just gay.
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>>2867785
>Not having significant amounts of celestial blood
NGMI
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>>2867969
I like to have unique races in the party, and unique classes. It's just better and more fun that way.
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>>2867689
I keep pronouncing Aasimar as ASMRs in my head now. I bet that's pretty common.
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Is there a bad consequence if my arcane spell caster had low Knowledge Arcana?
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>>2867972
And I like to have a full party of Aasimars, You should do what you find fun and I find this fun
>>2867994
Assaamaars, ASMRs yeah I'd imagine it's pretty common
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>>2868059
>missing out on extra bit attacks
>fun
>missing out on massive saving throw bonuses
>fun
>missing out on cool weapon types that otherwise need feat waste
>fun
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>>2868052
Gameplay wise I don't think so if you have someone else covering that stat, roleplay wise imagine a mathematician that doesn't know how to do division
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>>2868061
Why are you so upset that I don't want to play my games like you do?
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>>2868063
I think you're a weirdo. You probably make them clones of the same class too.
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>>2868069
Lmao you're right, I run a full team of sword saints plus one healer/buffer
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>>2868071
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
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>>2868075
2000+ damage from crits and attacks of opportunity per round, not a single enemy has resisted dying within 3 turns on Unfair except Areelu from WOTR
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>>2868080
That's gay and you should feel bad..
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>>2868075
Though I'm not against trying something new, tell me what classes and races you run and I'll try them out
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>>2868088
Try a bard team. But has to be different bard archetypes.
>>
And let us know how well each bard type perform and rank in power levels.

I'm intrigued by the Flame Dancer, and Thundercaller.
But the Tranquil Whisperer and Archeologist have some very unique songs that givers different team aura.
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>>2868089
Alright, I'll give it a go though I've never used a bard on my team let alone a full team, I'm gonna miss have a I win button (Dimension strike)
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>>2868094
You can't use the default bard. We don't need input on that one since we all know how Linzi works.
Has to be
1x Archaeologist
1x Thundercaller
1x Flame Dancer
1x Tranquil Whisperer
1x Dirge Bard
1x Beast Tamer
>>
A complete troubadour party is probably very powerful because it's different songs with different bonuses that stack.

Luck bonus song
2x Morale bonus saving throw song + sonic damage song
Fire resistance song
Morale bonus AC song
Song that makes your attacks Adamantine + Fang + Greater Magic Fang.
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>>2867066
No RPG should ever have scripting. Don't ever bring that cancer up again.
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>>2868152
BG2 had scripting.
Tabletop Pathfinder has scripting, you can literally beg GM to give you infinite Light spell duration because eventually it becomes torture for his ears to be reminded of that spell as well.
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>>2868166
No, EE has scripting. (and nobody uses it)
>but retardfinder!
is 3.5e for zoomers too dumb to play 3.5e, I dont care what it has
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>>2868167
Yeah you're just a faggot.
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>>2868168
sounds like you're the faggot, otherwise you wouldnt be playing tabletop pathfinder
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>>2868166
>BG2 had scripting.
Pretty sure the original game didn't have scripting. That's a beamdog thing.
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>>2868170
Shut up gaylord faggot maggot.
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>>2868171
>>Pretty sure the original game didn't have scripting
It did. It's not a beamdog thing.
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>>2868172
why play the version of 3.5e where you can be a marvel super hero trans half angel? it's not like the modules are better. please explain.
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>>2868175
The explanation is you're too gay to live.
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>>2868176
you're the one playing modern dnd lmao
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>>2868180
You're the one who is a faggot.
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>>2868182
doesnt seem that way, as sitting down to a pathfinder session is the same as draining paizo's big gay balls with your mouth
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>>2868186
Pathfinder has the best cute waifus.
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>>2868152
There's no harm in including it as an option, even if just to automate frequently used buffs.
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>>2868245
I imagine it would be used more often for the few cantrip buffs, since there are infinite casts.
+ it would also act as a sort of cool passive character animation to apply the cantrip buffs.
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>>2864386
Scims just have the base crit range AND the fact that they are abundant in good models in PKM. I don't know where you're at but I feel like the only part of the game where you might have more ls selection is mid act 2.
Bastard sword is a strong option because it also comes in good models and can be abused for 2h str bonus while also wielded 1h to do magus stuff.
>>2863934
FYI CoTW MT is the most powerful and flexible caster I've ever made. It is because they have a specific MT feat that allows them into the class at 4 IIRC as well as another way to empower spells by burning the opposite class spell for it. (a power I've not even needed to use at all yet) Best to enter as eccli cleric and only take 1 level of empyreal sorc this way. You always need the same buffs memorized, and you only need a large rack of burning arcs (also highly abusable due to the existence of traits like Wayang Spellhunter) and controlled fireballs to snuff out 99 percent of enemies in PKM. Then at the highest levels cleric spells aren't a slouch on offense anyway and you can keep slotting metamagic more powerful controlled fireballs while picking up even more channel power, domain slots, & extra recast of your highest level spells with that symbol ability while remaining level 1 sorc 10 MT for all your arcane.

>You could just make a single class caster and let the other five characters cover the other spell list.
Conversely I can combine nuker and buffer in one and run less party members for way faster xp gains. Minimalist parties are a lot of fun for this reason and 4 member parties are some of my best build engineering feats overall, especially if you're playing with CoTW restrictions on skillpoints.
>>
>>2863851
The monsters' stats themselves were inflated.
But you can't reload in tabletop and the are not just waiting around to get killed because they are controlled by the GM
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>>2855668
Any post using the word tranny is automatically invalidated and the opinion expressed within means nothing.
Return to school and touch grass.
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>>2868258
Or, ya know, fix the shitty encounters. Buffing shouldn't even be something people even consider automating. If you have to automate something in a game its not worth playing.
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>>2869100
>Or, ya know, fix the shitty encounters
Pathfinder needs to:
>get rid of rtwp entirely
>half experience gains and readjust encounters accordingly
>make high level encounters actually have appropriately dangerous high level enemies
>have less but more difficult and rewarding encounters
>have set resting areas in dungeons so resources matter
>stop using retarded modules
>>
>>2869100
There is nothing wrong with automating something that can is already automated by most poeple in P&p. Brainlet.

>>2869122
Nah it's perfectly good as it is. We went through this in the previous thread where you got flustered and had no counter argument of value>>2862547
>>
>>2869191
>We went through this in the previous thread where you got flustered and had no counter argument of value
That's not me, schizo. KotC runs OGL 3.5 and has much better pacing and gameplay precisely because it does these things.
>>
>>2869204
>KotC
I tried to google that.. But even google doesn't know what obscure game you're referring to.
It must have been a commercial failure.
>>
>>2869206
okay kid, you can't cast haste and shut your brain off so you probably would hate it anyways.
>>
>>2869206
>kotc rpg
>13,900 results on google
trying too hard, anon
>>
>>2869210
I see. But it always boils down to the fact that you guys want fewer opponents. because that's how it was in the p&p.
It's done that way in p&p out of necessity, it's humanly exhausting to have sessions that last +20 hours. So they use fewer encounter to represent things like large hordes of invasions.

But on the computer we are no longer shackled by such limitations. We can actually configure larger scale invasion armies to make it more realistic whether they are from the first world or from hell.
>>
>>2869226
animations in newer games actually make it more tedious to have lots of high enemy encounters in a turn based system. they don't provide any real challenge, and the devs can always say that the small fry are getting battled by your other followers while you take on the leaders. regardless, he covered all that with:
>stop using retarded modules
invasions are garbage for adventuring, leave that to strategy games
>>
>>2869236
When you have to offscreen something it's usually because you are a shitty director who couldn't handle the workload.

>invasions are garbage for adventuring
I don't think so, I read something about Kingmaker being their most popular AP. So the setting where they get invaded by neighbouring kingdoms, bandits, barbarians, 1st world must have been a good setting that appealed to people.
>>
>>2869244
>movie analgee
lol
>most popular AP
people who buy preset adventures are invariably retards, anon
>>
>>2869249
It's the truth, you're just a bad director who ordered too much food to handle.
>people who buy preset adventures are invariably retards
Still not an argument. It's still the best indicator we have when it comes to the question of what people are interested in.
>>
>>2869249
>>movie analgee
>>movie
Based retardo
>>
>>2869253
it's absolutely an argument, it's sampling bias. you know nothing of what "people" want, only people who buy APs. and god forbid some developer make something they want to make rather than trying to appeal to "people"
>>
>>2869258
>you know nothing of what "people" want,
I have a better indicator that you have.
>>
>>2869260
no, you don't. you have an indicator of what people who buy APs want, and even that's interpretive, maybe they just liked the name or the idea of being king. possibly nothing to do with invasions. you really have extremely weak argumentation here.
>>
>>2869263
It's usually a word of mouth thing, people ask each other what is recommended, and they recommend stuff they like.

If you're up to the task just invent your own AP and base your video game on that. That's what Bioware did with BG1 and 2. But that's besides the point.
>>
>>2869226
>But it always boils down to the fact that you guys want fewer opponents
But KotC has huge fights. It just has less of them because they are harder fights.
>>
>>2869266
It probably isn't any harder than the difficult fights in ptahtfinder games. One of them just upsets you more because you don't like to tackle large amounts of invasions, you prefer to have the dungeon master offscreen that stuff for you.
>>
>>2869263
it's still selection bias of pnp players who play APs.
>that's besides the point
kinda wraps back around to your point though, why base a crpg on a pnp adventure path at all? free yourself from the limitations of the tabletop. you obviously have no real argument here, you are just defensive.
>>
>>2869268
for
>>2869264
>>
>>2869268
>why base a crpg on a pnp adventure path at all?
It's a question of resource management isn't it?
You can either do it yourself if you're good like Bioware used to be.
Or you can do it yourself and end up failing like Obdisian did. That's just more risky to set aside developer resources to invent your own APs instead of just licensing existing stuff that's largely well liked by the customer base.

>it's still selection bias of pnp players who play APs.
Because it's a bad idea to select among the crowd who buy things?
>>
>>2869272
it also takes less resources to not drag out your campaign with superfluous fights
>bad idea to select among the crowd who buys things
that aren't the the thing you are selling.
>>
>>2869267
>It probably isn't any harder than the difficult fights in ptahtfinder games.
They are absurdly hard fights. Like on a scale of 1 to 10 pathfinder on unfair is a 1 and KotC is an 11.
>>
>>2869272
also, why waste resources on involved minigames and puzzles with poor reception?
>>
>>2869274
1. I don't see any indication that it posed any difficulty for them.
2. They are not superfluous, the larger amount of opponents makes the atmosphere different.

>that aren't the the thing you are selling.
What do you mean?
Everytime you buy a crpg it's the same thing as buying an AP.
>>
>>2869279
They probably wanted to.
Your resource management isn't put to question when your game is successful and sequels are in the making.
You are put to question when you abandon your setting after 2 games and work on Pentiment instead.
>>
>>2869280
>everytime you buy crpg it's the same thing as buying an AP
yes, everyone who buys crpgs, also buys APs. same exact people and same number of sales involved. this isn't fun if you aren't going to try, anon.
>>
>>2869288
>. same exact people and same number of sales involved
The video games is a bigger market. But there is nothing wrong with using the original p&p fanbase as your guidance.
What's the alternative? Aiming for the pokemon market?
>>
>>2869291
there's probably more crossover there. animal companions are awfully popular.
>>
>>2869296
KEK, good luck with that.
>>
>>2869272
>You can either do it yourself if you're good like Bioware used to be.
>Or you can do it yourself and end up failing like Obdisian did.
Obsidian created an entire setting and adventure, while Bioware made their own adventure in an already well-known setting. Plus Baldur's Gate wasn't an amazing story or anything, it was just a fun adventure that didn't get up its own arse.
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>>2869381
>Plus Baldur's Gate wasn't an amazing story or anything
I think BG2 was successful due to the way it was structured. It was as if it's designed by a proper DM who also have expertise in what a replayable single player computer game needs.

>Obsidian created an entire setting
It would have been cheaper for them if they had saved themselves that trouble. Then they could have produced the game for cheaper, lowering the production cost can be a good thing if you try to be independent publisher.
>>
>>2869388
I agree, but they wanted maximal cash infusion and to create an independent IP for use in future games/add value to the company for a buyout. My point is that Owlcat could've created an adventure within Golarion, like Bioware did, the risks aren't commensurate with Obsidian's gamble. I agree that BG2 is a structural success combined with good characterization, plot is not that interesting.
>>
>>2869393
>Owlcat could've created an adventure within Golarion, like Bioware did
KEK, that would require some more talented DMs planning that. They were probably more comfortable with customising some existing AP, and courting a already existing player base who likes those APs.
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I think kingmaker was a near perfect RPG until the house of mirrors at the end. Holy shit what a slog.

Come to think of it WOTR had a similar issue, they just put 1000 enemies at the end with very little story or anything.

Hopefully they fix their pacing issues in rogue trader because the ending should be a huge payoff, not feel like they ran out of money/effort/care/time to finish the fucking game.
>>
>>2869404
>1000 enemies
It wouldn't be proper Hell if where wasn't massive amounts of adversaries.
>>
>>2869407
Fair point. I just wish there was a bit of lore or something sprinkled throughout. All I did was fight through the enemies until I got to areelu
>>
>>2869397
So there are no talented DMs at Owlcat?
>>
>>2869404
>the ending should be a huge payoff,
I understand if something can end up feeling like it's cheaply developed. But some people (like me) consider if payoff when there are a lot of enemies I can flex my super builds on.
Those who play these games to build OP super powerful parties needs something to unleash said party on.

>>2869410
That opinion is up to you, isn't it?
>>
>>2869412
No, I mean in your opinion you don't think they could've matched Bioware? I thinking you are overestimating Bioware's talent because of the their legacy when the fact is they got lucky and had no real competition. Sometimes all it takes is making a game, and any cRPG made with the Pathfinder system would've been in a class of its own and produced sales.
>>
>>2869412
I see, I turned the difficulty down to easy to breeze by it. Fuck that final fight too, way too many phases.

I was lich wizard too so it's not like my build was bad
>>
>>2869414
I'm not sure.

I think Owlcat are trying to be the generous type of DM.
Like if you want to be a dragon, you can, if you want to be a lich, you can, if you want to be a devil instead of a demon, you can, etc.
Bioware was good at giving you different ways to earn that fee for the 10K gold boat ride. But they are good at limiting the scope of their game.
Whereas Owlcat is too generous to do that. And as result you can kind of tell it doesn't look like they had enough time and money to make all of their paths super polished.
>>
>>2869424
It's a travesty we dont have more KOTORs, there is so much potential there and they just abandoned it. Cringe.
>>
>>2869428
Meh I always hated star wars.
>>
>>2869424
That's a problem with stretch goals, which have been detrimental to every game I've seen have them.
>>
>>2869480
>>2869424
The extra mythic path stretch goals were like the first couple ones (I think crusader was the first).
There was no way they were not hitting it. A good chunk of stercth goals are shit they were working on regardless and they just ask you money for it while gauging interest.

Considering they had like 12 mythic paths before cutting them to 6 standard ones, they were going beyond a normal scope no matter what
>>
>>2869824
Sure, but they still wanted a laundry list of features. Crowd funding and stretch goals encourage baked in scope creep.
>>
>>2869828
I have faith owlcat will try too hard to include too much without a kickstarter in rogue trader too
>>
>>2869842
Probably, but at least they aren't required to provide a public list of promised features. Shit can be cut and no one will know. Stretch goals are cancer.
>>
Just started playing this. I wanted to like it but holy fuck the combat is absolute cancer, mite priests are niggering me in the dick
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>>2870077
Just play on normal like normal people do.
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>>2856116
>In Wrath, Theurge is a bit more tolerable if you go lich or angel due to merge
Agreed. 9th level Cleric spells, 9th level Wizard spells, and a CL25 for 24 hour per round spells.
>>
>>2870080
>Just play on normal like normal people do.
normal is basically journalist mode
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>>2870124
>hurr durr look how hardcore i am i've played for 999999 hours and optimize every run and every build perfectly 100%
Fuck off, even normal mode is cancer
>>
>>2870124
no I don't think journalist could handle normal mode even normal mode can throw some bs now then
>>
>>2870126
challenging is core rules, my first playthrough i did hard. if you know literally anything at all about dnd the entire game is trivial.
>>
>>2870149
>if you know literally anything at all about dnd the entire game is trivial.
This. I just did a run on challenging using the default level builds for everyone and it was easy as piss, confirming what I'd long claimed. Builds are FAR secondary to just understanding the game mechanics.
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>>2870149
if by know anything about dnd you mean only build the perfect optimal builds then yes that does make it trivial, I bet you read a guide before even starting playing
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>>2870126
The game is balanced so even a retard can easily beat it lmao, this is what happens when you mash m1 is TES for hundreds of hours.
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>>2870184
>I bet you read a guide before even starting playing
no. i didnt even know how pathfinder works, only regular 3.5e.
>>
>>2870174
>>2870184
Embarrassing.
>>
>>2870212
let me guess you throw everything you have at every trash mob
>>
>>2870230
*oh also did you guys play when it first came out because they nerfed a lot since then
>>
>>2870230
why is it so hard to accept you are retarded? just learn the game. it's already way easier than it should be.
>>
>>2870232
I beat the game just fine I just hate tryhards like you
>>
>>2870149
Challenging isn't core rules, though I agree it isn't that hard if you really pay attention to positioning and your abilities.
>>
>>2870239
lol
>>
Biggest thing for me to catch onto was the teamwork feats, cause I'd never seen those before. Outflank is ridiculous, especially once I realized that it's simply two characters attacking means a flank. I though you had to pincer at first.
>>
>>2870241
normal has massive enemy damage reduction and your characters cannot die. challenging is all the mechanics working as intended.
>>
>>2870248
Enemy stats are boosted on Challenging, better to adjust enemy stat adjustments to "normal enemies" for a beginner. That would be closest to "core rules".
>>
>>2870256
they need to be adjusted because certain things are way too damn effective in flooring them in a system that is already weighted extremely heavily in the players favor.
>>
>>2870257
Yeah, if you are familiar with how these systems work and aren't a beginner. Nothing wrong with not being good at a game the first time you play it.
>>
>>2870263
no, people need to be bullied or they wont learn. this isnt reddit.
>>
>>2870269
Nah, Challenging plus normal enemy stats is the optimal beginner difficulty. You're wrong and stupid.
>>
>>2870269
Yes yes you're so great for spending hours reading about every little hidden mechanic and picking some op build
>>
>>2855659
You have it good, there is eldritch scion magus (who can switch to dragon prestige class), sword saint magus.

Also, haters are cretins, this game is very okay. Less trying to be muh_different and reinventing/disruptive for the sake of it, more just plain old RPG with party and stablished rule system (that however is way too much customizable and as such complex, but it can be fun when you go nuts with multiclassing for power gaming but better yet flavor - for example the Dragon Disciple levels give dragon wings on your character, plus actual dragon form - and you can pick your dragon type)
>>
>>2855678
it's not any different from 6character BG2 party
>>
>>2870272
look at this post >>2870273 and tell me I'm wrong. dunning kruger is rampant here. better to just play on challenging and be forced to learn the game. enable respecs if you are new. that alone is a huge difficulty concession in favor of the player.
>>
>>2855701
>>2855827
IMHO, that's not a bad thing, if all the fights were about as challenging, that would suck.
You can reload, you can retreat, so I'd say the variety and added challenge isn't bad.
For example that encounter where you go solo, it took time and reloads to deal with all the monsters, but there was a sense of achievement when I finally bonked everything on that map with solo Paladin.
>>
>>2870273
Mechanics aren't hidden, anon, they are all in the game, just no one wants to read the full text of all their abilities and the many feats. I don't multiclass at all and used default builds and I had no problem with the Challenging+normal enemies. You do have to like reading, personally, I do it while eating/drinking coffee.
>>
>>2855852
I prefer to play meelee classes and for them, she is best as arcane trickster - handles thieving, mage role and also shoots bows
>>
I wonder if the difference in perspective here is just real time vs turn based mode
>>
>>2870286
the game doesnt have a functional turn based mode. it's not designed for that. dont use it lol.
>>
>>2870286
No, it's kind of a meme that you need OP builds, because people don't like having to learn a game to not fail. OP builds are impediments to learning how to play these games, RTwP or TB doesn't matter for that.
>>
>>2870288
What he fuck are you talking about, you braindead nigger?
>>
>>2858199
>Valerie made me seethe because she couldn't equip the Dueling gloves that are literally made for Fighters. Because he archtype is retarded and don't have even 1 weapon training.
For this reason, I decided to level her as ranger instead (shield bashing + 2WF feats), and switch Amiri to two-handed fighter.
>>
>>2870296
turn based is completely broken and not only makes an easy game even easier but also adds enormous amounts of tedium. encounters are clearly balanced for rtwp smashing. you dont even get any of the actions you'd expect to see in a turn based dnd game anyways so theres no point.
>>
>>2870285
>>I prefer to play meelee classes and for them, she is best as arcane trickster
Not really. Her high INT has melee potential, so it's just stupid to waste her like that.

Harrim is the one who should pick up Mystic Theurge arcane casting duty.

Thieving doesn't require anything special the melee octavia couldn't handle.
>>
>>2870338
>waste her like that.
Well the problem is there are three meelers in my party already, plus pet. There's even Jaethal (somebody has to watch her nonstop, doing this for greater good), front line is going to be crowded
>>
>>2870345
>>Well the problem is there are three meelers in my party
Cool, there's 6 melees i my party. iI guess you just don't like meleeing as much as I do, nor as much as you claim you do.
>>
>>2870347
>>I prefer to play melee classes
>>play
Based retardo
>>
>>2870347
>>2870347
>I prefer to play meelee classes
>iI guess you just don't like meleeing as much as I do, nor as much as you claim you do.
I meant I like being meelee for MC. Doesn't mean for everyone else.
Not that I absolutely opose your idea of course, hijacking NPC's careers and giving them unexpected classes is what this game encourages.
I'm feeling like doing something stupid with Jaethal, actually.
>>
>>2870352
Personally I think it's a widespread misunderstanding that the Rouge is a ranged character. They never were meant for that.
Uncanny Dodge is a melee capability.
So is Evasion.
And so it the Debilitaating injury
And the Opportunist ability.

A level 4 Rouge actually isn't that weak at tanking compared to a level 4 Fighter.
>>
>>2870263
Why would someone be posting on the board exclusively for RPGs if they don't even know how DnD works? They should be lurking or shitting up /v/ instead.
>>
>>2870354
It tends to be harder to keep them in shape in less organised brawls (less micromanagement), or well, at least in stuff life BG1/BG2.
I tend to go lighter on various buffs, spells, potions and longer intervals between rests, so that historically favored having the front brunt taken by traditional melee classes.
I don't think I really tried frontline rogue in these newere games like PoE, Kingmaker.
>>
>>2870352
>I'm feeling like doing something stupid with Jaethal, actually.
It's very difficult to build Jathal wrong since her default class is exceptionally versatile.
Full 20 Inquisitor is already a strong class on its own.
Inquisitors who reach level 3 get Solo tactics, at that point you can also combine her super well with 2-handed fighter levels or Ranger levels, or Slayer levels.
>>
>>2870338
It's not a waste to build Octavia as an AT, nor is making Harrim a MT automatically the best choice. It's just differing preferences for party composition; you already have two great melee party members, three if your PC is melee as well.
>Harrim is the one who should pick up Mystic Theurge arcane casting duty
So you don't actually want a level-appropriate arcane caster?
>>
>>2870365
>>It's not a waste to build Octavia as an AT
If is if you like to play melee classes.
>>
>>2870360
>I don't think I really tried frontline rogue in these newere games like PoE, Kingmaker.
Avellone's retarded shit baby and arguably the most unga character in the game is a melee rogue. They are super fucking good.
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>>2870360
>I don't think I really tried frontline rogue in these newere games like PoE, Kingmaker.
One say I want to try a Rogue trio with Octavia and Nok Nok.
They have the Rogue, and the Knifemanster, so I just need to implement a Thug of some sort in there to get the Trio going.

Opportunist is basically an extra source of Seize the Moment. It's like the perfect metaphor for the Caesar Brutus moment.
>>
>>2870362
Got to say I'm not a huge fan of inquisitor. I'm not that savy in PF spells and cleric always felt to be situational flexible resource to me (sometimes heal, sometimes offense, sometimes buffing) so I feel pressed when I have to pick the spells to learn with a sponty divine caster.
>>
>>2870354
>They never were meant for that.
They were meant for it as soon as you could get sneak attack damage on ranged attacks.
>A level 4 Rogue actually isn't that weak at tanking compared to a level 4 Fighter.
True, but there's still going to be a significant difference and the disparity will only increase with level. The main advantage a Rogue will have is Uncanny Dodge, but with proper positioning your tank will never have to worry about being caught flat-footed and there's ways to get UD on your tank anyway.
>>
>>2870366
You realise 'I like to play melee classes (for my main character' is different from 'I like every companion to be a melee character', yes?
>>
>>2870376
>and the disparity will only increase with level.
The thing with this system is you don't have to be a Rogue forever.
Rogue 4 & Slayer 16 is perfectly viable, since the Slayer Talent can give you any feats you want, but also any Advanced Rogue talent you want.
>>
>>2870378
My argument still stands.
>>
>>2870371
>Thug
I love how you can give class with that name to somebody with a levels in monk and paladin and it synergises like crazy.
Not to mention you can also do your rogueing in full plate armor.
>>
>>2870390
If you want to be RP friendly you can also combine Thug with Barbarian levels since they have the Uncanny Dodge, which can stack into Improved Uncanny Dodge.
>>
>>2870401
I think I'll add 2 monk levels and I thug to my paladin and then go Dragon Disciple (will need respec to walk back some paladin levels).
I decided to go cheese - cleaving finish, the whole shatter defenses system and craneshit in one character. Oh and dragon bite augmented by sneak attack and probably arcane strike later for fun.

Though putting in vivisectionist feels really tempting, even if I have its meme status.
>>
>>2870421
Don't fall for it, anon. You might already be a dipfaggot but you can still save yourself from being a V*vinigger
>>
>>2870424
you know, the only one thing that actually tempts me is the dex mutagen - I have lame dexterity and not much skill points so chances are I could really use that to get +2 skill check in some MC-only situation
>>
cautionary tale for other anons: it's vanity that corrupted me.
I wanted wings (not aasimar because I'm elffag, tho I hate noldorfag) so I started to look into this Dragon Disciple thing.
Oonce you lose your 1-class purity, it goes all spirals ownward even before you realise you need to have that one sorc level.
Suddenly your moral restrains are gone and you are a slut that wants everyone's class perks inside
>>
>>2855659
>I like spellblades if that helps.
Then good news because Sword Saint is one of the best class archetypes in the game.
>>
Hello anons. My name is anon and I'm a dipnigger. I started as a paladin.... but now I don't know what I am. My dipping habit started with anons introducing me to scaled fists cha armor bonus. Soon I found myself picking up sorcerer levels for dragon disciple Stat boosts and bite attacks. I hit rock bottom when I started sucking cocks for vivisectionist dips.
I'm clean now. 3 full play throughs now with out dipping. There is hope you can break the addiction too.
>>
>>2870421
>I think I'll add 2 monk levels and I thug
The 2nd Monk level doesn't add anything the 2nd Thug already offers you.
The Monk Bonus Feat is actually a more limited selection than the Rogue Talent which can give you a Combat Trick.

The 3rd Thug level adds 3 valuable traits.

The 4th Thug level adds 3 Highly valuable traits.
And all of the Thug levels from 2, to 4 gives you Full base attack bonus. So people usually dip 4 Thug/Rogue levels.

The 5th Thug level is where the game starts to hurt your base attack bonus too much. That's why people stick to 4 Thug levels.
>>
>>2870485
there is one exception where Zen Archer in the second PF game actually gives two bonus feats, because you also get weapon focus (just longbow/shortbow choice tho).

I exploited it on a meelee character - sure having the feat on useful weapon would be better but this way you can get dazzling display sooner ((it will be hard to use tied to bow but serves as requirement) and get cornugon + shatter defenses sooner.
Ofcourse the other Zen Archer feats are only good for dodge and combat reflexes but the second is actually wanted and the first allows you to get the craneshit sequence.
I then went into Dragon Disciple with 1 level of Bloodrager and that at one point gives you cleave and power attack (and later other stuff like the STR to intimidate feat and improved initiative) through bloodline feats.
Cheesy class combination to get more of the high feat cost combos, basically.
It's obviously a question if it's worth having crane riposte + cleaving finish + shatter defenses simultaneously (and ideally sneak attack damage)
>>
>>2870531
>because you also get weapon focus (just longbow/shortbow choice tho).
This is more of an equivalent trade with the removed Evasion.
>>
>>2870372
>take a melee character
>level 6 spells with poor selection and poor casts/day
>some jank encounter powers
>maybe some team feat or summons that are slightly better
I hate inqs, I always fully respec Jaethal instantly into a cleric or fighter. It just feels like trading good melee capability for pisspoor daily janks packages on a schizo that doesn't really know what they want to be. They have less focus than magus somehow. Warpriests make them look crappy imo.
Monster Tactician is decent but only because summoning on an extra resource with better time limits is strong and there are other ways to get there on better classes.
>>
>>2855659
If you want to play on any difficulty but normal you will need to minmax like a motherfucker and dip about half the classes for 1 or 2 levels
>>
>>2855659
install a game that's not made by apes instead.
>>
>>2855662
I'm not a tranny so I refuse to play BG3. Please kill yourself.
>>
how about you let people play the game how they want to play it you autists.
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>>2870645
Kill yourself already, In*ff*ct
>>
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>>2870636
>I hate inqs, I always fully respec Jaethal instantly into a cleric or fighter. It just feels like trading good melee capability for pisspoor
I would embrace those forst 3 Inq levels as pure gold.
This teat right here turns her into the most versatile melee companion you can get.
She can master ANY teamwork feat you want her to master, and you don't have to invest into them from your other party members.

She just need some Fighter levels or slayer levels to give her the feats needed to make her shine.

And the thing is, once you already have someone who can make superb use of the team work feats, it automatically become seasier for the other 5 characters in your party to gradually invest into teamwork feats as they can afford to at their own pace.
>>
>>2870669
I don't see the point. There's pretty much only two must-have teamwork feats and everyone's going to be taking them around the same time anyway.
>>
>>2870848
For example if you pick Back to Back instead of Dodge you get +2 AC instead of +1AC.

It's a class that can only improve in future games as they integrate more teamwork feats that are also very powerful..
>>
>>2870861
That's just it, after outflank I hardly care about team feats and everyone in melee takes outflank anyway even animal companions.
Another whole feat for just 1/2 extra ac is not too exciting to me either. It is probably because in the specific inq/not-inq/Jaethal lane I also tend to run her with (cotw) fluid form till i get those higher level enlarges that work on undead for extra reach (for SCYTHE) anyway and just let her non-killability make up any hard ac tanking difference.
>>
>>2870896
Can also give her Precision strike which will work without the others taking it.
Inquisitor class is also the only viable class for Tandem Trip, because it's unlikely for any party to have 2 tripping specialists.
>>
>>2870899
I'll have to take another look at precision strike.
My trips are very plentiful and come from ekun's doggy with wolf trip cape, and jub with some ridiculous amount of force grenades and a discovery or talent i can't recall right now, but more options are nice.
>>
>>2870901
>I'll have to take another look at precision strike.
It's one of those feats that helps a bunch at the earliest levels if 1 of your characters take it.

It's comparatively less useful later on, so it's good that only 1 character took it to powerboost through early levels (the inquisitor)
Jaethal at level 3 can pick 2 team work feats. That's one of the candidates along with Shake it Off.
>>
>>2870669
inquisitors already get bonus teamwork feats and there are like 3-4 good ones so what's the point
>>
>>2870907
The more feats the stronger your character.
Are 6 inquisitor feats more powerful than 10 slayer feats?
>>
>>2870909
except there are like 3 good teamwork feats and everyone is going to have them anyway
>>
>>2870912
See>>2870861
>>2870899
>>
>>2870907
If you think there are only 3 good feats then what's the point of staying with a class that force you to select 6 of them, did you ever ask yourself that question?
>>
>>2870914
not that meaningful
shake it off is cool too I guess and inquisitor is good for other reasons but that ability isn't that strong
>>
>>2870917
>+2 AC from back to back isn't that meaningful
>+2 AC from shieldwall isn't that meaningful
Yeah suddenly you're 4 AC behind compared to me.
>>
>>2870919
except jaethal's ac will always be trash compared to the designated tank
>>
>>2870920
Like who?
>>
>>2870921
valerie, linzi, mc, any dex guy
>>
>>2870924
That's nonsense. Anything you plan to give Valerie, you can give to Jaethal plus more things that will push her AC beyond that.
>>
>>2870926
you have to multiclass her for that which is not good for an inquisitor, especially in a game with such slow levelling
>>
>>2870930
not to mention no monk dip because she's not
>>
lawful
>>
>>2870930
That's besides the point, you clearly told nonsense.

>which is not good for an inquisitor
Also nonsense. Solo Tactics work perfectly great with multi-classing.
>>
>>2870933
who gives a crap about solo tactics when you are delaying judgement, bane and spell progression like a moron
>>
>>2870935
See>>2870915
You're the moron who still have yet to explain yourself.

>judgement, bane and spell progression
You can just forego that and grab the advantages from the other classes.
>>
>>2870938
so no point in ever using jaethal
>>
>>2870939
I already proved she will have better AC than the other NPCs you picked.
What else are you going to whine about?
>>
>>2870943
no she won't, she has shit dex and no other source of ac from stats
>>
>>2870945
And the tank you picked has even shittier dex, so what's your point?
>>
>>2870950
can be monk dipped and multiclassed
>>
>>2870954
>>can be monk dipped
Will give Valerie +2 AC.
Weren't you the retard who told me +4 AC was negligible just an hour ago?

Why do I get the feeling you're grasping at straws right now...
>>
>>2870939
Jaethal has a lot of good points being that she has unique stat setup and immunities being undead. Inq is the weak link, not Jaethal.
Hate to bang the cotw drum all the time but antipaladin jaethal is both mechanically ridiculous for her and thematic.
So are some forms of intimidation tanking.
>>
>>2870960
>doesn't know about the scaled fist strats
just stop posting
>>
>>2870966
1. you're going to have to remove Valeries Armor and rely on her +1 dex modifier.
2. You can now enjoy her +2 charisma modifier to her AC
3. Holy fuck you're so retarded.
>>
>>2870974
Why are you so argumentative about character building when you clearly know nothing about it? I'm not the poster you were replying to, I'm just curious. If you genuinely don't know just ask your questions like a normal person.
>>
>>2870982
Go on, explain why it's such a great idea to take Valerie and remove her armor just so you can dip into a monk for the charisma bpnus to AC.
>>
>>2870974
you know there are ways to increase stats right
>>
>>2870984
Do you think there might possibly exist some tool in the game that lets you increase your character attributes? Like, say, magic items? Or spells?

That said, you don't need to be a m*nknigger to make Valerie an effective tank, even on Unfair. It's just easy so everyone does it, and it's a clear point of difference because Jaethal will never be able to do it. Making Valerie a straightforward armour-tank will still have her outperform Jaethal, since she has a better attribute distribution and doesn't have a wasted level. Jaethal's
immunities are nice but their main utility is baiting our specific things, and she has too many downsides to make it worth it.
>>
>>2870992
>>2870989
Right. I'm arguing with the band of clowns who rest and buff before each fight.
>>
>>2870992
>since she has a better attribute distribution
How so?
>>
>>2870994
>using enchanted items is resting and buffing
Look if you're going to admit you know nothing about the game, next time lead off with that before you go on some schizo diatribe defending your favourite character. Or at least get a trip so people can filter you.
>>
>>2870996
You're either a cheater who applies buffbot, or you're a liar who goes through most fights without buffs, hence you would still be lying about Valerie having better AC.
Either way your argument is extremely dishonest..
>>
>>2870995
She has the advantage in actually having a Con score, it's slight but it's there. The main advantages she has are actually being able to use her Cha score for AC and in being alive.
>>
>>2871001
Right, who could forget about that almighty +2 charisma modifier...
>>
>>2870998
>I'm bad at the game so everyone else must be too
lol
Have you even played this game or do you just skim-read wikis? By the time you get to midlevels you can buff once when you enter an area and only have to refresh it for boss fights. On anything under Unfair you probably won't even need to buff because of how quickly and highly you can ramp Valerie's AC, the only times she'll get hit will be on 20s.
>>
>>2870998
this is some next level coping
>>
>>2871003
Based retardo
>https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Headband_of_Alluring_Charisma
>>
>>2871008
So +3 modifier plus her crappy +2 natural modifier.
What that worth removing her heavy armor for?
>>
>owlcat makes the most accessible 3.5e game ever where gameplay boils down to casting haste and occasionally clicking on things
>retards still struggle
how did things degenerate this badly
>>
>>2871004
>On anything under Unfair you probably won't even need to buff because
At that point why not just let her keep the heavy armor?
Why go through the most dishonest form argument possible and pretend you sleep and buff each time you enter a new area with a single lone creature in it?
>>
>>2871012
Considering you can get full Dex + Cha and still keep your +8 armour bonus from bracers, yeah, probably.
>>
>>2871016
>full Dex
A whooping +1 modifier right there. Extremely baddass.

>+8 armour bonus from bracers
Only accessible in Pitax and beyond.
>>
>>2871015
>At that point why not just let her keep the heavy armor?
Oh, I do. I beat Unfair with her built as a straightforward TSS/SD, I'm just making fun of you for suggesting that Jaethal would ever be a better tank that Valerie. because someone with even a basic understanding of the game can see that no matter how you split it she'll always be behind. Hell, even someone who's never played the game but has lurked in these threads enough would be able to see how retarded you are.
>>
>>2871021
>A whooping +1 modifier right there.
lol
go back to skimming the wiki, retardo, maybe you'll learn enough to do better next thread.
>>
>>2871024
>I'm just making fun of you for suggesting that Jaethal would ever be a better tank that Valerie.
The straightforward build you made is already inferior to Jaethal in terms of AC. That what I was getting at.
>>
>>2871031
>The straightforward build you made is already inferior to Jaethal in terms of AC.
Please, do elaborate.
>>
>>2871030
That's the dex attribut you have.
You removed her full place armor (which is accessible early game), just so you could wank about with the +1 dex modifier and +2 cha modifier.
>>
>>2871013
Guideniggers and their consequences were truly a disaster for the rpg race.
>>
>>2871033
See>>2870919

Can't do that with Valerie.
>>
>>2871033
>be at room temperature IQ
>jump into the discussion without even understanding wha tis being discussed
Can you put on a trip so I can filter you?
>>
>>2871038
valerie can get inquisitor levels if you really want to
>>
>>2871056
But the point is you think inquisitor is crap, so you're not allowed to use that advantage.
>>
>>2871057
please quote the post calling inquisitor crap
>>
>>2871058
Did you already forget you samefagged a ton of times to call the Solo Tactician ability pointless?
>>
>>2871013
Understand that the average Pathfinder player will call you a casual faggot if you play on anything lower than Core, which certainly needs more than Haste cast.

>>2871037
Games that require guides to get through them like this on anything above easy is an extreme niche, and there's nothing wrong with filling that niche if people want it. It's not like every game becomes like that, if anything most games are designed for the opposite where they're easy enough that you never need to look at a guide ever.
>>
>>2871059
meds + didn't happen
>>
>>2871038
Actually, you can, though it obviously requires you to take the feat on another character. Regardless
>Back-to-back
Worthless, since it exists only to balance out the bonus attack from flanking and Valerie will be immune to being flanked.
>Shield Wall
And in exchange for that, Valerie gets full Armour Training, Tower Shield Training and enough feats to take the entire Crane style through Riposte even if you don't dip monk.

>>2871053
>Can you put on a trip so I can filter you?
Why would I? Clearly you meant to quote the other poster.
>>
>>2871061
See>>2870907
And>>2870912
Are you going to pretend that wasn't you?
>>
>>2871059
>muh samefagging
Thanks for conceding that you've lost the argument and are now entirely focused on trying to save some face.
>>
does shield wall even work with inquisitor if you don't have a shield?
>>
>>2871063
>Worthless, since it exists only to balance out the bonus attack from flanking and Valerie will be immune to being flanked.
Wrong. You can be immune to flanking whole enjoying that +2 AC
>And in exchange for that, Valerie gets full Armour Training, Tower Shield Training
That's ACTUALLY is worthless since her DEX is worthless.
You really did turn out to be a dumbfuck, but you think extremely highly of yourself for some reason.
>Clearly you meant to quote the other poster.
No I clearly meant you>>2870996
The room temperature IQ who don't read the discussions he jumps into.
>>
>>2871060
Oh, you misunderstand me, my post wasn't very clear. There's nothing wrong with writing guides, or referencing them in appropriate way. My disdain is intended for the type of player whose primary interaction with character building is reading a guide instead of actually playing the game, because almost invariably they end up simply incapable of properly understanding the mechanics for themselves and then you get ""discussions"" like this one.
>>
>>2871068
If you want a tanky inquisitor you obviously use a shield instead of scythe.
>>
>>2871071
>jaethal without a reach weapon
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOO
>>
>>2871072
Yeah, you're extremely retarded I know.
>>
>>2871074
post your sword and shield no damage "tank" jaethal pls
>>
>>2871076
With Precision Strike Teamfeat, she would still be ahead of Valerie in terms of damage.
KEK

The thing with Valerie is she is a completely failure build. Tower Shield Specialists are supposed to have High DEX in order to enjoy the benefits of their class.
>>
>>2871077
post it come on
>>
>>2871079
I already told you I an out damaging your valerie build with that 1 feat along.
>>
>>2871080
why are you so scared of posting it?
>>
>>2871069
>Wrong. You can be immune to flanking whole enjoying that +2 AC
Show me. If you're going to claim that the game works differently than RAW you need to demonstrate it. It shouldn't be that hard, you do actually play the game right?
>now that actually is worthless
Nope, since you'll be using items to increase it. +1 base at her first attribute point to make it even 14. Even if you get the full +4 you claim you do, Valerie breaks even at Dex modifier +4 and scales from there. If you only get the +2 on Jaethal like the rules suggest, she breaks even as soon as she gets 14 base Dex.

Did you, uh, forget about Crane Style, or did you just forget to reply to that part of my post?

>No, I clearly meant you
Why are you whining about other people supposedly samefagging when you admit to actually doing it? Do you want people to make fun of you?
>>
>>2871081
It's called confidence. I'm confident that you're completely shit at building valerie.
>>
>>2871077
>The thing with Valerie is she is a completely failure build.
lol
m
a
o
>>
>>2871085
I see you're too scared to address the argument in that post.
>>
>>2871084
that's the opposite of confidence mr. shitbuild
>>
>>2871086
If somebody put forth what they thought was a compelling argument, and then earnestly insisted that two plus two was fifteen, would you bother to address it?
>>
>>2871088
Not really. There's no feat that can help the tower shield specialist which I also can't benefit from. That's why you were always going to lose tomoment you picked that particular NPC to argue from.
>>
>>2871092
You should probably read the description for tower shield training, then take a look at Valerie's DEX modifier. I fyou have enough brain cells to perform such a task.
>>
>>2871095
>https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Belt_of_Incredible_Dexterity
>https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Belt_of_Physical_Flow
>https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/Belt_of_Physical_Form
>>
>>2871098
The Tower shield training allows for a total +10 Dex modifier.
And I'm saying they build her wrong.

How are your pathetic +3 modifier belts supposed to remedy all of that?
>>
>>2871083
>+1 base at her first attribute point to make it even 14. Even if you get the full +4 you claim you do, Valerie breaks even at Dex modifier +4 and scales from there
Here's the thing, I called Valerie's attributes shit, I never called TSS shit. So I can actually add TSS levels to Jaethal.

>Did you, uh, forget about Crane Style
Did you forget I can pick Crane style too?
Are you getting a little bit desperate?
Low on oxygen for the brain cells?

>Why are you whining about other people supposedly samefagging
I didn't call you a samefag. It's something I can accuse another person for, independent of you. Brainlet.
>>
>>2871101
>And I'm saying they build her wrong.
That's because you are an actual, unironic retard. Companions don't need minmaxed stats and anyone who thinks they do should be shot. The real concern is character viability - that is, is the character and attributes sufficient to make them a good choice for their suggested role. And Valerie is completely viable up to and including the highest difficulty, even the most ardently insufferable dipniggers like In*ffect will agree on that. Could you do better with a minmaxed MC? Sure, but why would you want to. She'll still be a better tank than anyone else, including Jaethal.

>How are your pathetic +3 modifier belts supposed to remedy all of that?
+4 actually, which you'd know if you'd played the game instead of learning about it entirely through a wiki and a Taiwanese claymation forum. And between that +4 and her natural +2 modifier from base (you get an odd amount of base attribute increases, optimisation means you use at least one on smoothing out an odd attribute score) you have +6 already. There are other eays to boost Dexterity, too.
>>
>>2871110
you've already wasted 3 levels in inquisitor for the dumb shieldwall feat, you'll never get the crane shit in time
>>
>>2871117
>That's because you are an actual, unironic retard. Companions don't need minmaxed stats and anyone who thinks they do should be shot.
Asking for a +2 modifier in the main attribute of her class isn't minmaxing.
Asking for a +3 modifier in the main attribute of her class isn't minmaxing either.
You're clearly a dumbfuck who does not understand the definition of mismatch.

>+4 actually
+6 Dex belts only give only +3 in the modifier
>and her natural +2 modifier from base
Her naturla base is +1.
>>
>>2871118
Don't forget, I'm outdamaging you with Precision Strike as well, and have the Back to Back AC.

>you'll never get the crane shit in time
Depends on how I multiclass. there's plenty of feats to go around.
>>
>>2871124
>outdamaging a tank
wow
>>
>>2871128
And out-tanking the tank.

You should have picked a better NPC when you had the chance to.
>>
>>2871129
you're not outtanking shit as a lv3 inquisitor
>>
>>2871110
>I called Valerie's attributes shit, I never called TSS shit.
Actually, my ESL friend, you called her "build" shit, and what most people mean by that is a character's classes since that's what you actually, you know, build. But I digress.
>So I can actually add TSS levels to Jaethal.
Sure, you can do that, but you can't take both Inquisitor and TSS levels at the same time - you have to choose one or the other. This is what I and the other posters have been trying to point out this whole time. Even if you take 3 Inquisitor levels for your precious tactics feats and then immediately start taking TSS and SD like an equivalent Valerie build, you'll always be behind on feats and class abilities, and Armour Training is progressive. Trading out three
levels for only 4AC is not a good deal, especially at the lower levels when it matters most.

>Did you forget I can pick Crane Style too?
Nope, see above. Would love to know how you're affording all those feats, though.

>I didn't call you a samefag
So your hypocrisy is okay just because you weren't addressing me? Wow, you really must be brain-damaged.
>>
>>2871131
Those 3 levels already gave me +4 AC compared to your crap tank.
And I still have a third feat I haven't selected for yet.
>>
>>2871132
he's afraid of posting the build, I wonder why
>>
>>2871135
Truly, a mystery. I'm surprised he hasn't started coping completely by now.
>>
>>2871132
>Actually, my ESL friend, you called her "build" shit,
Nah, I said they build her wrong.
to build vs a build.
I'm starting to doubt whether your IQ is even above room temperature.

>you'll always be behind on feats
Actually you're only 2 feats ahead as a level 6 TSS vs a 3 inq/ 3 TSS
With 2 feats you can never catch up with +4 AC.
You lost loser.

>So your hypocrisy is okay just because you weren't addressing me?
Sorry bob, I didn't know the other guy I targeted was your butt buddy.¨
It's no wonder you got so offended on his behalf.
Just use a trip so I can filter you, then you won't get hurt in the future.
>>
>>2871134
>+4AC
>can't use heavy armour
>can't use tower shields
lol
>>
>>2871144
See the post above yours. Getting tower shield and heavy armor is easy.
>>
>>2871132
>>2871142
Did I accidentally say 2?
>Actually you're only 2 feats ahead
I meant 1. KEK. 1 feat ahead.

good luck loser.
>>
>>2855659
>fill build with useless frankenjank
>lose bab
>gain 2 teamwork feats?
IDK rather do 4 rogue still, debilitate is way underrated
The team sneak attack from Precise Strike isn't really great unless everyone takes it anyway, and you'd have more sneak dice with rogue without blowing a feat on it
It's egregiously different in cotw with access to more armor trait and armor and shield feat too, even a bit of combat expertise stuff is workable for heavy armor fighters
Hilariously monk became less of a staple for me since I left the ac crutch turned off, and I just spend the normal feats to get crane usually.
>>
>>2871164
I saw a few WotR playthroughs, and most of those newbies almost get party killed why Hulrun and his 2 assistants because of those 2 teamwork feats.
>>
>>2871142
>Nah, I said they build her wrong.
>to build vs a build.
If only we had a word for that in the English language, to remove that uncertainty... oh, we do. It's 'built', ESLfriend.

>Actually you're only 2 feats ahead as a level 6 TSS vs a 3 inq/ 3 TSS
Luckily you don't play the entire game at level six, right? But even so, Valerie as a level 6 TSS can have Crane Wing and a couple other AC-boosting feats, and Crane Wing is 4AC by itself. Jaethal can't have both Crane Wing and both the Teamwork feats you're relying on to "win". Better luck next time, anon!

>It's no wonder you got so offended on his behalf.
You've mistaken mocking you for offence, pretty common among people new to the site. Stick around for a bit longer and I'm sure you'll get the hang of it.
>Just use a trip so I can filter you, then you won't get hurt in the future.
...if you really wanted to make it obvious that you were a complete newfaggot why didn't you come out and say so at the beginning?

>>2871146
Sure, but when are you going to take it? Take it immediately and you get proficiencies but you delay your teamwork feats and are just an underlevelled TSS, take it after those 3 Inquisitor levels and what's your plan until you get them, sit there and get hit?
>>
>>2871182
You fucking retard.
Can't
*miss*
you
*miss*
see
*miss*
I'm
*miss*
outdamaging
*miss*
you?
>>
>>2871016
>>2871021
you are both fags missing the point, the real answer is that women in full plate armor are hot, so there.
Obviously you dip Jaethal into Two-handed fighter to properly armor her cold undead jaethals too.
>>
>>2871182
>Jaethal can't have both Crane Wing and both the Teamwork feats you're relying on to "win".
It just needs 5 BAB. 3 inq/ 3 TSS has 5 BAB.
At level 6 you have 7 feats.
At level 6 I have 6 feats. Enough for Crane Wing + Shield wall + Back to Back.

>Valerie as a level 6 TSS can have Crane Wing and a couple other AC-boosting feats
No, you have 1 more feat, and you can't overcome 4 AC deficit compared to me.

Hey man, this was the hill you wanted to die on. I'm giving you what you want.

>You've mistaken mocking you
I think you're completely oblivious of how retarded you have been throughout this thread.

>but you delay your teamwork feats
It's roughly the same, you will always be a little bit behind because your feats are inferior to the teamwork feats.
>>
>>2870919
>two feets wasted
at that point you can just do the dipshittery and crane riposte Valerie.
>>
>>2871185
>damage
>on a tank
Nice job moving those goalposts all by yourself. You realise if you don't want to admit you lost the argument you can just stop replying, right? This is an anonymous board for a reason, so retards like you can run along to the next thread without having to worry that people will follow you and make fun of whatever stupid shit you posted.

Also
>outdamage
>with precision damage
>with lower BAB and no Focus
You really are completely new to the game, huh?
Try increasing the difficulty to something above Story, it might force you to actually learn something.
>>
>>2871193
Crane isn't exclusive to monks.
>>
>>2871194
>This is an anonymous board for a reason,
That was a different guy. You're clearly assblasted right now and mistook him for me.
>>
>>2871194
I was making fun of this retard >>2871199 saying he's outdamaging people with his inquisitor "tank"
>>
>>2871207
My mistake, anon. I apologise.
>>
>>2871195
yeah but it's probably feat-economic to do like that, monk level gets you the improved unarmed wombat feet, which is needed IIRC.
>>
>>2871207
It's just -1 to hit. in return for +1D6.

It's actually better value than Power Attack.
>>
>>2871211
and fighting defensively
>>
>>2871225
I guess that's pretty bad. But we are both fighting defensively for the sake of comparison.
>>
>>2871232
so your damage is worth even less while also having trash ac
>>
>>2871234
>while also having trash ac
*better aC than you.

>so your damage is worth even less
-1 to hit is fair trade for +1D6.
>>
>>2871244
post this AC then
with the math
and the feats
>>
lol, you kids are so cute
>>
>>2871246
I already posted the feats.
You have +1 surplus feat with Valerie,
So you need to overcome 4AC deficit with 3 feats.
Go on foo, die on your hill.
>>
>>2871249
post the ac
>>
>>2871251
Better AC than you. Better Dex than you. Better damage than you.
>>
>>2871191
Go back and count again. You can't have both teamwork feats and Crane Wing up on Jaethal by level 6, and if you'd actually played the game you'd know why.

>I think you're completely oblivious of how retarded you have been throughout this thread.
I'm not the one who doesn't know how item enchantments or spell buffs work, anon.

>It's roughly the same
If you consider the equivalent of being underlevelled by two levels 'roughly the same', sure.
>>
>>2871255
so post it
>>
>>2871257
By the way, Jaethal's 16 STR is more than enough to counter balance the loss of 1 BAB for inquisitor.
Because Valerie is a complete turn on STR as well.
>>
still waiting for the AC total
>>
>>2871256
>>2871256
>You can't have both teamwork feats and Crane Wing up on Jaethal by level 6
My bad. You're right about the first feat already going to Toughness. Then the superior AC won't kick in until I'm level 7.

>I'm not the one who doesn't know how item enchantments
Items will never let you benefit from the full potential of the tower shield specialist.

>If you consider the equivalent of being underlevelled by two levels
It's nothing crippling. You're not gaining anything of exceptional value compared to me.
>>
>>2871279
It's better than yours, that's all you need to know.
>>
>>2871285
no proof
>>
>>2871288
Just compare the feats.
Any feat you pick, I can pick too.
Any armor your wear, I can wear too.
>>
>>2871289
so post the number
>>
>>2871292
The number is better than your number. It will always be.
>>
>>2871293
prove it with a screenshot of the ac number
>>
>>2871294
I already proved it with the feats I listed. And you had no counterarguments left.
So now you're just in butthurt mode.
>>
>>2871282
>Then the superior AC won't kick in until I'm level 7.
It never will, because being behind in feats will mean while you're spending them to catch up with a TSS, Valerie is already spending those same choices on something else. Even if you put every level after 3 into TSS you're going to be behind.

>Items will never let you benefit from the full potential of the tower shield specialist
Irrelevant, since there's a pretty significant difference between a bonus of 1 and a bonus of 6 (or more). Your inability to recognise that just further demonstration of how clueless you are.

>It's nothing crippling. You're not gaining anything of exceptional value compared to me.
Apart from being two levels ahead on all the class features? I'd say that's a pretty significant jump, considerng all you get in return for being two whole levels behind, behind in AC and behind in feats is... 1d6 precision damage. Being two levels behind is noticeable, especially in the midlevels you'll spend most of the game at.
>>
>>2871306
>Valerie is already spending those same choices on something els
Like what? give me some real feat examples that lets you catch up to the 4 AC.deficit you have.

>Irrelevant,
No it means you have mismatched the attributes with the class.
It's like picking a wizard with low INT. That's how retarded Valerie's specs are.

>considerng all you get in return for being two whole levels behind
I'm not 2 levels behind in anything until you have demonstrated what you have that I don't have.
>>
>>2871314
>Like what?
Like... any of the numerous feats that increase your AC? I've linked you to the wiki more than enough times, I'm sure you can find some for yourself.

>No it means you have mismatched the attributes with the class.
The original issue was you not understanding how Valerie could get more than her base +1 from Dex to AC even with Armour Training, based retardo
>It's like picking a wizard with low INT. That's how retarded Valerie's specs are.
Wow, yet again you manage to demonstrate that you know nothing about the game or the system it's based on. I'm almost impressed. Wizards are a SAD (or SAO if you want to be generous) class. TSSs are not. It's not comparable.

>I'm not 2 levels behind in anything until you have demonstrated what you have that I don't have.
You're two levels behind in everything, though. Two levels behind in getting Crane up and running, two levels behind in all your TSS class features since that's what you're levelling in now. For what, some precision damage? Like another poster you were too retarded to heed suggested, if that's what you wanted you could take one level of a sneak attack class and get a greater benefit for a leaser cost..
>>
>>2871332
>>Like... any of the numerous feats that increase your AC?
The reason I'm asking is because there is only a limited amount of them, and eventually you will run out and become unable to overcome that deficit.
That's why you're dodging that confrontation, you know you're full of BS.

>The original issue was you not understanding how Valerie could get more than her base
No, I knew you were a lying asshole, and that much was confirmed when you admitted you just build her up the straightforward way and don't actally bother to buff her up. That's why you were always a lying crook when you lcaim her AC is higher.

>It's not comparable.
It literally is, retard. If you aren't going to build a high dex tower shield specialist then you might as well have made her a vanilla Fighter. At least that way she would get Weapon Training.

>Two levels behind in getting Crane up and running
No. Once I have that you have no where else to flee to.
The hill you wanted to die on was the claim that you have better AC. You don't.
>>
>>2870536
It's not any trade because for a meelee fighter the bow weapon focus is useless.
The point is entirely to get the dazzling attack feat sooner. Evasion is a real loss, that I agree with.
>>
>>2871336
>The reason I'm asking is because there is only a limited amount of them, and eventually you will run out and become unable to overcome that deficit.
What level will that be, level fifteen? Eighteen? You will always be behind because of the extra feats you have to spend, and you'll always be behind on class features which include the scaling Armour Training - three levels behind, the two was only for Crane. Not that it matters anyway, since Valerie has enough feats she can pick up both teamwork feats in their normal course and still be ahead with regards to class features. Hell, even being ahead on Armour Training would be enough considering it means you can go into SD earlier.

>No, I knew you were a lying asshole
You knew I was lying which is why you didn't understand the mechanics? That's almost cute, anon. Gear are not buffs, and I never said I didn't buff her - I said I wasn't a dipnigger, different case. The only reason I haven't bought it up futher is because with either of those factored in Valerie jumps even more clearly ahead and it's not even a contest.

>It literally is, retard.
It really isn't. I wasn't TSSs used Dexterity for their attack rolls, or that Wizards got an item which gave +10 to their spell penetration and save DCs at level one. You don't have to be embarassed about not understanding the terminology we're using for this discussion, if you don't understand something just say so. Or, Google it.

>If you aren't going to build a high dex tower shield specialist then you might as well have made her a vanilla fighter
Based retardo, of course someone who doesn't understand how buffs work thinks it's reasonable to completely change a companion's role because they didn't have minmaxed enough stats.



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