[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vm / vmg / vr / vrpg / vst / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / pw / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / vt / wsg / wsr / x / xs] [Settings] [Search] [Mobile] [Home]
Board
Settings Mobile Home
/vrpg/ - Video Games/RPG

Name
Spoiler?[]
Options
Comment
Verification
4chan Pass users can bypass this verification. [Learn More] [Login]
File[]
  • Please read the Rules and FAQ before posting.
  • There are 76 posters in this thread.

08/21/20New boards added: /vrpg/, /vmg/, /vst/ and /vm/
05/04/17New trial board added: /bant/ - International/Random
10/04/16New board for 4chan Pass users: /vip/ - Very Important Posts
[Hide] [Show All]


Janitor applications are now closed. Thank you to everyone who applied!




File: 1634113863854.jpg (112 KB, 1200x1500)
112 KB
112 KB JPG
Remember to dip Monk.
Everyone should have a bit of Monk with them.
Especially Sorcerers.
>>
>>2728464
I would dip inside that monk. If you know what I mean. Dip my penis that is.
>>
File: file.png (453 KB, 433x630)
453 KB
453 KB PNG
I love Monks.
>>
File: 1631698676263.png (5 KB, 512x147)
5 KB
5 KB PNG
Actually you shouldn't multiclass at all.

If you do, it will hurt their feelings and trigger their favrourite games' inferiority complexes.
>>
>>2728952
Multiclassing isn't an issue, dipping is. If you don't understand the difference, then RPGs aren't for you.
>>
>>2729479
They should just bring back 2e AD&D style multiclassing, that'd solve the problem right away. There's still room for OP combinations but you don't have to put up with the kind of shit like in Pathfinder or NWN where people dip 1 level in 3 different classes.
>>
>>2729479
>>Multiclassing isn't an issue, dipping is
Neither of them is an issue. they are just different ratios.

Apparently you get butthurt if someone has a certain ratio of abilities between different classes.
>>
>>2729480
>the kind of shit like in Pathfinder or NWN where people dip 1 level in 3 different classes.
I once saw a tv drama of some dude who is disciple to 7 different masters.
Why shouldn't I be able to build a character like that in my video game?
>>
>>2729490
You can be a monk who trained with 7 different masters but being a sorcerer 1/bloodrager 9/paladin 3/hellknight 1/monk 1/alchemist 1/dragon disciple 4 is just retarded.
>>
>>2729493
>but being a sorcerer 1/bloodrager 9/paladin 3/hellknight 1/monk 1/alchemist 1/dragon disciple 4 is just retarded.
That depends on our journey, doesn't it?

The GM is the one leading the way. If he insist we stop by some monestary, then why shouldn't I use that excuse to pick up a few monk levels?
If we meet a Paladin NPC along the way, why couldn't I try to learn what I can from him?
etc.
>>
monk dip is like the one that makes most IC sense at that
sorcerer deciding they don't want to be caught completely off guard if their magic doesn't work and taking up martial arts training entirely fits narratively
>>
>>2729486
D&D and Pathfinder are equal parts RP and mechanics. Ignoring one or the other is only experiencing half the game. If you want something with no RP and all mechanics, go play Pokemon. If you want something with no mechanics and all RP, go find a freeform RP chat.

Single dipping proves you have no concept of the RP that makes an RPG. Go play a fighting game or building sim if autism number crunching is all that appeals to you.
>>
>>2729498
Because none of that happened to your character.
>>
>>2729601
That's a stupid argument if I wanted a system that could facilitate such a thing.
>>
>>2729600
>Single dipping proves you have no concept of the RP that makes an RPG.
That's also wrong, retard.

What do you think happened back when D&D allowed you to dual class Fighter 1/cleric 19?
Did you screech like a retard back then as well?
>>
>>2729479
My dip backstory is that he was a level 1 scaled fist monk of Irori who realized that the perfect human should be a monk 1/sorcerer 4/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10/demonslayer 1
>>
>>2729480
That's not necessary, you just have to move the really powerful stuff further down the tree or base it off class level. If monk WIS/CHA -> AC was capped by monk level it wouldn't be a problem.
>>
I suspect people are making multiple types of arguments and mixing it all up together.

Some people are upset because a level 1 monk can choose to dropout and do other things in his life.
Other people are upset because level 1 monk is too powerful.
>>
>>2729603
If it didn't suit the RP, yes. No matter how much a system might work to expand a sense of realism of mechanics matching story, there's always faggots like you that have no business playing RPGs that only see systems to exploit.
>>
>>2729619
>If it didn't suit the RP
But it can be made to match the RP. But faggots like you don't want it to be possible, you're all about restricting people.
>>
Monk and pally dips are checked by alignment but that rarely becomes a problem
If they were to push those level 1 feats (AC bonus, saving throw bonus, etc.) further back, it would make the class undesirable to play as, even going pure
>>
>>2729623
>story continuity and RP is so restrictive!
Again, RPGs are obviously not the genre for you.
>>
>>2729676
There are millions of stories out there from all sorts of adventures. And here you're being a dumbass who plead for the entire system to be restricted.
>>
bros im going to go fucking nuts I cant find a good portrait for angel or female demon that doesn't look like shit.
>>
No WotR general so I'll ask this here:

Played through it (Wrath) once, slightly tempted to have a second go at it and try another path. Are there any mods/cheats yet that remove some of the worst the tedium of it?
- Make rests instant (skip party banter and animations), and/or reduce how frequently they are needed
- Remove "roadblocks" on the overland map, don't want to have to skip time just for routes to open up.
- Permanent/24h party haste from the start
>>
>>2729697
If you're playing it through again just for the story and not to try out character classes just set the difficulty to baby mode. You will almost never need to rest.

Doesn't toybox let you perma haste?
>>
>>2729707
Does baby mode also make your characters accumulate fatigue slower? Main thing that bothered me was having to stop and rest constantly while travelling between places.

Possible, I played it without toybox last time so I don't know.
>>
>>2729697
>no wotr general
>>>/vg/thread/394765142
>>
>>2729600
This is complete bullshit.
>>
>>2729611
>Other people are upset because level 1 monk is too powerful.
A level 1 monk is trash.
However, some other profession who took a correspondence course in monkery is incredibly powerful.
>>
>>2729728
>Does baby mode also make your characters accumulate fatigue slower? Main thing that bothered me was having to stop and rest constantly while travelling between places.
You don't really have to rest until you're at your destination as long as your camp camouflage role has a high enough stealth check. You can walk anywhere you want for three days without sleep and just rest when you get where you want to go.
>>
>>2729479
There is literally nothing wrong with dipping unless you are immensely autistic and cannot understand that classes are nothing more than a collection of abilities by default. For all you know, I'm playing in a setting where Scaled Fist has nothing to do with a specific monk sect.
>>
fuck Monk dips and fuck Basedcerer, I'm gonna play pure 20lvl Wizard.
>>
>>2729754
Sounds to me like a result of the mechanics getting more and more divorced from the setting since the trash fire that was WotC DnD.
>>
>>2729760
You're in a fucking Pathfinder thread.
>>
>>2729763
And I exclusively play monoclass all the way to 20th level, as dipping is aesthetically and morally inferior.
>>
Dipping should logically face level and xp penalties. After all, a jack-of-all-trades is a master of none. For every extra class you add, your maximum total level should be reduced by 2, and you should have a -10% xp gain rate. If the level cap in a game is 20, and you dip one other class, then your cap becomes 18. You also won't hit level up at the same time as the rest of the party.
>>
>>2729771
You could just have more robust and diverse options within a single class
Why do we have Fighter, but also Ranger, Paladin, and Barbarian? The latter three are just versions of the Fighter, and that's how they were treated originally.
>>
>>2729771
No.
>>
>>2729774
You're right. Ranger, paladin and barbarian should indeed be subclasses of fighter. They should become unlockable after reaching level 5 in fighter. Then at level 5 in that subclass, you could get further specialisations. But all the while, pure fighter would get all those extra feats making him exceptionally versatile.
>>
You can tell you're dealing with impotent control freaks when they want to dictate what you should and shouldn't do in a single player game.
>>
File: 1625420111983.jpg (47 KB, 640x480)
47 KB
47 KB JPG
>>2728464
what does sorc gain from a monk dip?
>>
>>2728464
Try to play the game, always end up with something retarded like an angel-kin with dragon blood but also a barbarian seven dicks and wings and also a monk for a bit of ac.

Why describe the classes in such a deep way if you are not only allowed but encouraged to mix and match just because of the abilities feats and bonuses?
>>
>>2729934
For Sorc they're specifically talking about the Scaled Fist Monk subclass which adds your Charisma to your AC.

I really don't see the point since Sorcs are strong enough without dipping and delaying your spell progression on a full caster is retarded, but autists gonna autism.
>>
>>2729946
It's probably related to dragon Disciple builds, which has both Caster levels and strong BAB.
Then if you cast whatever is Paizo's equivalent of Tenser's Transformation, it would become very powerful.
>>
>>2728946
Hmmm from where does this picture originate??
>>
>>2728464
dippers will be shot
t. level 40 monk
>>
>>2729946
Back in the day sorc dipped paladin for massive saves and still spell
>>
>>2729602
Not a stupid argument. In tabletop, the criteria as to whether or not you'd multiclass has to do with roleplaying since roleplaying is part of the purpose. If there is no reason for a character to pick up some bard or sorcerer level out of nowhere so he could suddenly become a dragon disc when he levels up in either events happening within the campaign or something explicitly established in the character's background, then he should be taking those classes. For example, a Fighter character has known draconic ancestry as established in his background so rather than continuing his fighter path he seeks out a wizard or sorcerer to train him to use this potential (this would happen during down time in the campaign) and that develops in a bard level, sorc level, etc. depending on what the character's focus is and then the character continues to develop it with emphasis on the draconic abilities and then when he picks up sufficient arcane lore from his experience and training afterwords, he learns how to manifest these abilities and then takes up the dragon disciple levels. Whereas if the fighter character doesn't have the dragonic ancestry explicitly in his background and/or doesn't take steps to learn how to utilize this ancestry.

There are some exceptions to this of course, a fighter becoming a weapon master (3.5 ruleset) seems to be a fairly natural development since what the fighter was doing up to that point is fairly consistent with what a fighter would be doing in general. In a campaign where you start at level 2-3 for example, you could develop your character in accord to a background, a former monk who convinced his grandmaster to allow him to transfer to an order of paladins (around the time he gets his 2nd or 3rd level) can be done and then he focuses on being a paladin or perhaps a wizard gets some training in terms of a fighter level so he can have an option to fall back on when he runs out of spells can also be fairly appropriate.
>>
>>2729479
>dipping is.
Why?
>>
>>2729950
Also, dodge characters are stronger than armored characters in melee since they can stack up much higher AC than most armored characters ever could.
>>
>>2730038
They still do... They still do... Paladin 18/Scaled Fist 2 is also very strong when your in a campaign where all the important enemies are evil.
>>
>>2729969
InCase
>>
>>2729756
wizard still benefits from dips though
>>
>>2730084
Developing your character along the same lines but with a different focus is what prestige classes are for. Your example of a Fighter taking levels in Weapon Master is the perfect example. Instead of focusing on the more generalist training of a Fighter, the character learns to fight in the more specialized style of a Weapon Master. They're still doing the same things just with a different focus.

That's something else entirely from a Sorcerer suddenly taking levels in Monk, since that's a dip that's all about mechanical min-maxing and not a character honing their skills. The Sorcerer doesn't suddenly become an ascetic unarmed warrior, the player just wants to get that AC bonus.
>>
>>2729946
Seems pretty redundant on a class with Mirror Image.
>>
>>2730150
Mirror image is an additional layer of defense on top of AC. It is not a source of AC. All mirror determines is whether or not your character or one of the illusions is attacked by an enemy's attack. If your character is attacked due to a lucky roll by an enemy, then it still goes through AC as normal.

Redundant AC would be either more AC than needed to reduce any enemy's hit chance to 5% (without considering further hit chance reductions via concealment or mirror image) or casting barkskin on a character that's already wearing an amulet of natural armor +5 which would just be a redundant effect (it doesn't add anything). If the former, if you only need 60 AC in a hypothetical game to reduce all enemy's hit chances to 5%, then you only need AC to be 60. Every point of AC after that is redundant. However, If you have 60 AC and then cast mirror image, technically, the hit chance for enemies is now 5/N % where N is the number of copies summoned. So in general, the benefits of increased AC stacks with mirror image. If you want to take the monk dip to raise your AC to 60 and that monk dip is required to get to that point, the monk dip is not redundant. If you can get to 60 AC without the monk dip, then it's redundant. Every point above is somewhat redundant. This is of course ignoring that a build may need a lot of abilities early game to get optimal AC that becomes redundant around the late/endgame.

The issue with the monk dip for wizard will never be redundancy. It will always be a matter of caster progression. "Is the monk dip for the extra AC and free feats at particular time worth in exchange for a level of caster progression worth it?" is the correct question. It's a matter of need and timing.
>>
File: 1632853342158.png (363 KB, 838x574)
363 KB
363 KB PNG
>>2730084
>If there is no reason for a character to pick up some bard or sorcerer level out of nowhere
What if there was?
What if WotR literally had a bard NPC in the tavern you used as HQ in the beginning, and he gave out bard quests for newbies?
Good thing the Pathfinder system allows you to dip into Bard levels then. That's my argument.

But unfortunately we have retards like you around who wanted to makes such a thing impossible to happen, just because you are butthurt about what someone else does in their singleplayer.
>>
>>2730193
You are a complete fucking moron. Your autism has failed to give you functional intelligence.
>>
>>2730200
>What if WotR literally had a bard NPC in the tavern you used as HQ in the beginning, and he gave out bard quests for newbies?
If the bard actually gives your character training, then it would be appropriate to allow the player to pick up bard levels given that he has the training.
>Good thing the Pathfinder system allows you to dip into Bard levels then.
The 3e version of multi-classing was a mistake and will always be a mistake.
>That's my argument.
There isn't a single argument in your post.
>>
>>2730204
>gets made because facts were presented
>makes no counterarguments
Thanks for your concession.
>>
>>2730208
>then it would be appropriate to allow the player to pick up bard levels given that he has the training.
Unfotunately you and your retard friends in this thread have taken over Paizo and revised the rules to make this impossible.
So now I can't multiclass into the bard.

See how this works, retard?
This system is already good, it doesn't need to be changed to become more restrictive.
>>
>>2730211
You didn't state facts, you managed to miss the point of a single-sentence observation. The only explanation is that you are mentally deficient.
>>
>>2730214
>Unfotunately you and your retard friends in this thread have taken over Paizo and revised the rules to make this impossible.
>So now I can't multiclass into the bard.
Good.
>This system is already good, it doesn't need to be changed to become more restrictive.
3e and pathfinder were always shit. Both thematically and in character building. In 2e, a human character could have 3 to 18 STR. Unless they got some magically enhancements either through temporary potion/spell effects or permanent magical increases, they could not get STR higher than 18. 19 STR was reserved for races like Orcs and even higher scores than that was reserved for large creatures like dragons. A similar case for something like INT any other stat. 18 INT is peak human intelligence and the most legendary wizards would have maybe 19 INT. Over that and it started to get into the intelligence of some gods.
>>
>>2730129
Much obliged
>>
>>2730220
>Good.
That's not a good thing, you just admitted in that situation that I should be allowed to pick the Bard level.

How can you be this brain damaged?
>>
>>2730220
>Unless they got some magically enhancements either through temporary potion/spell effects or permanent magical increases
The main way was belts of X giant strength for our group, so magical items
>>
>>2730219
Incorrect. You misused to the term redundant. I elaborated that additional AC on a character that can use Mirror image is in general not redundant.
>you managed to miss the point of a single-sentence observation
You managed to completely misunderstand the purpose of a spell and demonstrated a lack of understanding of the system and how effects actually function. Mirror image does not exist to replace AC. Mirror image only adds an additional layer of defense on top of AC. There is no redundancy in a Monk dip when it comes to mirror image.
>>
>>2730222
>That's not a good thing, you just admitted in that situation that I should be allowed to pick the Bard level.
And the scenario you presented was consistent with the statement I previously made:
>>2730084
>For example, a Fighter character has known draconic ancestry as established in his background so rather than continuing his fighter path he seeks out a wizard or sorcerer to train him to use this potential (this would happen during down time in the campaign) and that develops in a bard level, sorc level, etc. depending on what the character's focus is and then the character continues to develop it with emphasis on the draconic abilities and then when he picks up sufficient arcane lore from his experience and training afterwords, he learns how to manifest these abilities and then takes up the dragon disciple levels. Whereas if the fighter character doesn't have the dragonic ancestry explicitly in his background and/or doesn't take steps to learn how to utilize this ancestry [he shouldn't].
Multiclassing can be fine if it is a well-constructed system like in AD&D 2e. However, it's a terrible system in 3e+pf1e.
>>
>>2730233
>And the scenario you presented was consistent with the statement I previously made:
Nope. If this game was build on 2e, I wouldn't be allowed to pick that bard level.
So you have proposed a retarded system that doesn't allow the player to develop a character that match into the story progression.
>>
>>2730229
No, you are the one who doesn't understand the term. Go find a definition of redundant that mentions AC. Obviously you won't, because the word redundant applies to many different contexts. For example, if I need to keep a computer part cool then I could use a fan or a tube that cycles water. Assuming that either is sufficient on its own, using both is redundant. What you are doing is the equivalent of saying that "the fan isn't redundant because it doesn't apply water cooling." It doesn't fucking matter, because the purpose of the cooling system is to prevent overheating. That is the purpose for which a second cooling system is redundant. Likewise, the purpose of AC is to not take damage from attacks. Mirror Image already satisfies this purpose--you will practically never die from attacks when using Mirror Image unless you are braindead.
Why do you need this whole paragraph to explain a very straightforward concept? Because you are mentally retarded.
>>
>>2730236
>Nope. If this game was build on 2e, I wouldn't be allowed to pick that bard level.
There is multiclassing 2e. For demi-human races, it was possible to do a multiclass like a fighter/mage, a cleric/mage, or fighter/thief/mage. The caveat is that experience points would be evenly split between classes as you gain it and you had to choose to multiclass at the beginning of the game. For humans, there was "dual-classing" at some later level up, you were allowed to choose to change classes. The caveat here is that you lose all previous class features until the new class' level is the old class' level+1 and you have to commit to the new class. Thematically though, dual-classing was a bad system and has the problem that without DM regulation, it doesn't make sense. Some people homeruled that humans can dual class just like demi-humans and simply just used the multiclassing rules ignoring dual-classing.

You wouldn't be allowed multiclass as a bard in the base rules. However, it was always up to the DM and players to agree to what rules could be changes within their game so it was always possible to multiclass as a bard given that your group was okay with it.

>So you have proposed a retarded system that doesn't allow the player to develop a character that match into the story progression.
Except in Kingmaker, WotR, ToEE, NWN1+2, IWD2 (the 3e games) there is no story progression for characters. The choice as to whether or not to multi-class and when is entirely independent from what actually goes on in the game world. There is nothing in any of those games that justifies any mutli-classing through the PC's actions and interaction with the world. There is nothing about any of their main questlines, or anything that can be done by the PC's that justifies multiclassing.
>>
>>2730258
>There is multiclassing 2e. For demi-human races, it was possible to do a multiclass like a fighter/mage, a cleric/mage, or fighter/thief/mage.
Nope, this decision has to be made at level 0, before the story even begins.
See?
You have "fixed" something that isn't broken, so now you have implemented an inferior system where there is no DM to help the player get that bard level.
Congratulations, you have made the game inferior

And why? Simply because you got butthurt at how some other people on the planet played the game in a way you didn't like.

>Except in Kingmaker, WotR, ToEE, NWN1+2, IWD2 (the 3e games) there is no story progression for characters.
I gave you 1 example of how it could happen.
In Kingmaker specifically you're dealing with a lot of bandits and Thieves in chapter 1.
Good thing we have a system that allows the player to dip into Rogue levels.

Unfortunately we have retards like you who wish to destroy that.
>>
>>2730255
>For example, if I need to keep a computer part cool then I could use a fan or a tube that cycles water
In a PC cooling system, the water cooling system is often coupled with fans because it helps with circulating air further cooling the system. Most water cooled pcs do have fans. They are not redundant as a fan helps further reduce the temperature of the PC. You also need quite a larger radiator to go fanless with a water-cooled pc.
>Assuming that either is sufficient on its own, using both is redundant
The enemy uses true seeing or gets lucky and hits your character. Because he has no AC, he dies.
All enemy archers target your wizard dropping your mirror image in less than a round and then forcing hits against AC. Because he has no AC, he dies.
>What you are doing is the equivalent of saying that "the fan isn't redundant because it doesn't apply water cooling." It doesn't fucking matter, because the purpose of the cooling system is to prevent overheating
And the fan which is intended to prevent overheating stacks with the water cooling. So the fan is not redundant to the cooling system.
>"the fan isn't redundant because it doesn't apply water cooling."
This statement has no relation to anything I said.
>Likewise, the purpose of AC is to not take damage from attacks
Correct. AC exists to determine whether or not you're hit. I.e. it's there to prevent damage by preventing hits.
>Mirror Image already satisfies this purpose--you will practically never die from attacks when using Mirror Image unless you are braindead.
Unless your character gets focused by enemies dropping your illusions and then targeting the character directly. Should've had some AC there. You didn't. Now he's dead. AI can also get lucky and attack the right target meaning you need AC anyways. It's also a mystery, if mirror image keeps you from dying, how player controlled characters could kill enemy characters in any game that apply mirror image to themselves. It's a big mystery.
>>
File: 1653688271071.jpg (46 KB, 570x298)
46 KB
46 KB JPG
>>2730258
>There is nothing in any of those games that justifies any mutli-classing through the PC's actions and interaction with the world.
Have you ever played Baldur's Gate 2?
You literally go into a Thieves Guild to train in their facilities as a Rogue.
But the back-end system in BG2 was inferior and didn't let the player make that spontaneous decision to dip into Rogue there and then.

See, if Baldur's Gate 2 was based on Pathfinder, the player could literally decide at that point he wanted to dip into Thug for example. There was a quest where you break into someone's house to intimidate them or kill them etc.

Pathfinder 1e is already perfect as it is.
>>
File: 1604525483891.jpg (62 KB, 781x601)
62 KB
62 KB JPG
There seem to be a lot of nerds(<3) here today, maybe you can give me a pointer - I played a sorcerer for about 90 hours, finished until the choice after the demon realm, then completely stopped for months due to work, now Im looking to start another playthrough. I was a NE sorc going for devil with azata path(was a gnome so it kinda fit) but probably rushed too much because I never got the Devil option ...
Any recommendations for a fun mc / mythic combination? Ill likely go evil again, but Im not sure about class or mp at this moment. Everything seems kinda cool, Im having trouble nailing down what to go for
>>
>>2728464
>search a monk portrait
>asian shit
>bald cucks
>clearly homosexuals
what a pain
>>
>>2730297
Try Evil Monk with a few Rogue dips.
The Student of Stone should work exceedingly well with a handful of rogue levels.
>>
>>2730303
what mythic path would you recommend to accomodate monk? Aeon? Demon for all out rageboner?
Im just looking for some input because theres a shitload of things to do(which I love) but I want to avoid playing something that loses steam after a few hours before jumping back in
>>
>>2730306
Whatever mythic that appeals to your evil playthrough.
>>
File: 1595059414819.gif (494 KB, 500x259)
494 KB
494 KB GIF
also who the fuck do you take for arcane caster if you dont maine one? Should I just make a merc? My tank is usually a merc already ...
>>
>>2730275
>Most water cooled pcs do have fans.
Once again you miss the point. It doesn't fucking matter if people do this, what matters is that you learn the usage of the word redundant so that you stop acting retarded. Redundancy is a quality which describes something used for a purpose, e.g. cooling or preventing attacks, not a quality which describes whether or not two things give Armor Class.
>The enemy uses true seeing or gets lucky and hits your character.
Sometimes it is reasonable to include a redundant feature as a failsafe. That doesn't make it not-redundant. The particular objection you raise here is not reasonable, however, because the enemy getting lucky and hitting your character once or twice will not kill you. Possibly a caster may have prebuffed True Seeing and use a touch attack against you, but they're more likely to use a save-demanding spell.
>This statement has no relation to anything I said.
It mirrors your ridiculous notion that Mirror Image has to provide AC for there to be a redundancy.
>Unless your character gets focused by enemies dropping your illusions and then targeting the character directly. Should've had some AC there.
This isn't a problem I've ever had. Not ever. I already covered this when I said:
>you will practically never die from attacks when using Mirror Image
>unless you are braindead
>>
>>2730318
There is a scroll Savant in the game you can use. That archetype is literally one of the best casters in the pathfinder system.
>>
>>2730294
>You literally go into a Thieves Guild to train in their facilities as a Rogue.
Lol. You don't train as a rogue. Your fighter/mage/etc. character gets roasted by the traps if they can even see them. Meanwhile the rogue in your party does all the work. There is a potential context which training could be received. However, its not in the game and there is no training that you could purchase or any interactions.
> didn't let the player make that spontaneous decision to dip into Rogue there and then.
It would be like deciding you're now an accountant because you visited an accounting firm. You didn't put out any time into learning how to be an account and didn't get any training from someone so there's no reason why you could spontaneously become an accountant. Likewise unless you pay or convince a guy to train you in the basics and then have the time represented by the character that wants to become a rogue is represented, there is absolutely no reason why he should be picking up rogue classes.
>See, if Baldur's Gate 2 was based on Pathfinder, the player could literally decide at that point he wanted to dip into Thug for example. There was a quest where you break into someone's house to intimidate them or kill them etc
If BG2 was based on pathfinder it would be a terrible game as all the retarded non-sense withing pf would be present within the game. It would be in pozzo's garbage setting instead of TSR's forgotten realms setting.
>Pathfinder 1e is already perfect as it is.
Pf1e is worse than D&D3.5.
>>
>>2730323
Granted, but I kinda hate her ... maybe Ill just have to deal with less dialogue with 2 mercs
>>
>>2730324
>Meanwhile the rogue in your party does all the work.
They were teaching you how to get the job done. You had the opportunity to study the traps with your rogue.

The rest of your nonsense post is retarded and irrelevant.
>>
>>2729479
Nothing wrong with dipping, monk dip is just too good that over half the builds involve it because level 1 feat + improved unarmed combat
>>
>>2730318
You only have one arcane fullcaster by natural companions
>>
File: 1652822752718.jpg (443 KB, 1550x1080)
443 KB
443 KB JPG
>>2730324
>be in the Forgotten Realm's equivalence of Rogue university
>just stand around and do nothing
>don't even have the mental capacity to stand next to the rogue in your party and observe what he is doing and ask him some questions about traps and stealthing
If you didn't understood that you were in the best training facility of the Thieves Guild and didn't even have a tiny fragment of intellect left in your brain to make use of that opportunity to give one of your characters some Rogue flavour, then you're beyond brain dead.
There would be no system in the world that could save you from yourself.
>>
File: 1650197649584.jpg (188 KB, 1320x743)
188 KB
188 KB JPG
Okay, I think I know what's wrong in this thread now.

In the right corner, we have NPCs who have no agency, no humanity in them, they need to be spoonfed by the dialogue box, or else they will have 0 brain activity.

In the left corner we have children with imaginations running amok, and they want to combine all sorts of classes with other sorts of classes.
>>
File: 1586639991972.gif (2.54 MB, 523x250)
2.54 MB
2.54 MB GIF
>>2730365
and in the middle we have you, being too cool for any side lol
>>
>>2730370
Nah I'm actually siding with the Pathfinder system here in the example with the Shadow Thief Guildhall.

There should be room for the player to feel disgusted by what's going on (they're teaching thieves how to break into people's homes), here the player is free to do nothing, and disregard any teachings that can be observed.

But there should also be room for that spark of inspiration. If the guildhall of the Shadow Thieves can't inspire your curiosity in the art of stealth, stabbing, and trap mechanism, then what can?

The pathfinder back-end is perfectly suited to satisfy both sides.
>>
>>2729728
It makes it so that combat is so easy that the only real downside to fatigue is the ultra-fatigue that makes you slow.

Your characters will still one shot nearly everything even if you auto level every body.
>>
is there any good rovagug dialogue if you pick him as a deity.

Torn between him and someone else for my demon sperg run
>>
>>2729498
Because you shouldn't be able to 'dip' into a livelong commitment of a religious order or the monastic lifestyle of a monk.
This lego style of leveling is only good for autistic minmaxing of stats at the cost of roleplaying.
>>
>>2730578
>Because you shouldn't be able to 'dip' into a livelong commitment of a religious order or the monastic lifestyle of a monk.
Depends on how long you can bait the GM to let you stay there.
If he at any point in time asks you if there is something you want to do, just to to the monks and train with them.

Grab their holy scriptures, or buy them, take them with you on your journey can practice it.
>>
>>2730587
Monastic teachings involve a degree of separation from wordly affairs. A monk that spends most of his time learning non monk skills should stop being a monk.
A similar argument can be made for nearly all classes.
>>
>>2730132
Nta, I wipe my ass with your Build Autism

Flavor > Mechanics
>>
>>2730594
>A monk that spends most of his time learning non monk skills should stop being a monk.
Not if he doesn't want to. Some of those skills can still be useful.
>>
Doing kingmaker playthrough. Sell me on Magus.
>>
>>2730605
I heard Spellstrike might potentially work on Cleave. But Anon didn't want to confirm it.
>>
>>2730599
Any religion has customs the adherents are supposed to keep. Being a monk carries certain additional obligations.
You view 'monk' as a building block for a stat sheet in purely numerical terms. Which is what the atrocious DnD system encourages. A far superior system would be one where single stats can be bought instead of having to choose levels of a class.
>>
>>2730632
>Any religion has customs the adherents are supposed to keep. Being a monk carries certain additional obligations.
Some are less strict about that than others.
>>
>>2730598
On second play though, or even 3rd, and 4th playthrough, MEchanics become more important.

for example I just found out Camellia can become a baddass Empyreal Sorcerer with Mystic Theurge,
It will add another layer of fun to the game.
This wouldn't have been possible in D&D 2e.
>>
>autistic build-mechanics children
High INT, low WIS.
>internal-consistency loremasters
High WIS, low CHA.
>>
>>2730658
Pathfinder is a back-end system that has room for them both.

The problem comes when the latter demands to eradicate the former from existing.
These cunts really need a chill pill.
>>
>>2730658
Autistic build-mechanics does not take high IQ, merely patience and rote memorisation of given facts. Internal-consistency is far more fluid and requires more individual decision making.
>>
File: 1587496597702.gif (1.77 MB, 498x329)
1.77 MB
1.77 MB GIF
sorc for variety or kineticist for blast? Cant decide ...
>>
>>2730672
The former needs resting once in a while. The latter can truck on and on.
Pick the one that harmonises with the rest of the party.
>>
>>2730672
Sorc because this isn't ATLA
>>
>>2730684
>ATLA
wut
>>
>>2730663
I didn't need any memorization, I just have a curiosity to make a puzzle match with itself.

Your side doesn't have any individual decision making, you're a tyrant who wants to dictate other people's lives.
>>
>>2730687
ATLA as in short for ATLAS as in Atlas Lion, another name for the extinct Barbary Lion, named for the Barbary Coast where Tripoli is located, Tripoli which is featured in the Marine's Hymn, the same marines that were founded on November 10th, the same date that Bill Gates unveiled Windows 1.0, Windows being a homonym for the window your father watches your mother's bull fuck her.
Avatar: The Last Airbender
>>
>>2730723
>you tyrants who insist that Roleplaying Games should include Roleplaying!
You're a stupid faggot who insists on opening doorknobs by wedging them up your ass and twisting, then whines about people limiting you when everyone tells you you're doing it wrong.
>>
>>2730735
>You're a stupid faggot
Nah, your limited retard brain just don't have enough juice to understand that playing Spirit Hunter with Camellia for the 10th time isn't particularly novel or interesting.
And then you screech like a baboon when you see someone else try something different.
>>
>>2730739
No one's telling you that you can't try something different, you're being told that function should follow form. I don't know what level of cousin-fucking occurred in your genepool that you can't grasp that.

Someday when you either grow up or overcome your genetic limitations, you might discover that working within the framework of what makes sense in-game to powergame is infinitely more rewarding. A build that not only is powerful, but suits the roleplay is infinitely better.
>>
It would have actually been cool if you took Nalia along with Yoshimo into the Shadow Thief guild, and you had the option to inspire her to progress as a Thief instead of a mage.
>>
>>2730742
>No one's telling you that you can't try something different,
That's what you do when you want to regress to D&D 2e. Now all of the NPCs will be stuck with 1 class they can never change.

You think this will improve the game, and you're blind to how utterly retarded you are for downgrading the system for no reason.
>>
>>2730745
>all of the NPCs will be stuck with 1 class they can never change
You were literally just told that multiclassing is fine, but that it should make in-game sense.

Taking a level of Thug with Valerie was a popular build that did not suit the character in any way. However, Seelah who's functionally the stand-in for her DOES have RP lending itself to rogue levels with her background as a pickpocket and a bandit.

Do you understand? I mean, I know you don't, but try.
>>
>>2730752
>You were literally just told that multiclassing is fine, but that it should make in-game sense.
Who is the judge for that? You?
Should every NPC be hardcoded to have just the few multiclass options you allow?
>>
>>2730752
Don't waste time trying to explain it to him. There are two people who play this game.

1. People who play Tabletop and understand that the character's story is first and foremost and that the build should be in support of that.

2. People who grew up on WoW and videogames and who have never actually roleplayed and only understand builds and optimization.

He's the second and he doesn't have the experience or even the frame of reference to understand what you're trying to explain. All he sees is people advocating for inferior builds that offer a lower DPS and it confounds him.
>>
>>2730760
What confounds me the most is retards like you who insist certain NPCs should only ever be the 1 class they were designated to be at level 1.
>>
>>2730764
>>2730764
No one ever said anything remotely like that. You're just exposing how incapable you are of understanding what people are telling you. It's been explained to you a dozen different ways by multiple people and you still don't get it. Don't blame yourself, you were raised by Minecraft, not TSR. You never had a chance to understand what's being told to you.
>>
>>2730776
>No one ever said anything remotely like that.
That's a lie, you have repeatedly stated you want to regress to the system where you're forced to play Viconia as a cleric for the 100th time.

You specifically said the system that allows her to expand into Loremaster or Mystic Theurge is the bad, baaaad system, because once upon a time some random guy on the internet made you butthurt over some builds.
>>
>>2730776
Someone's been saying that the entire thread you dishonest retard.
>>
Paizo doesn't want to tell anyone how to level up a character.
Owlcat doesn't want to tell anyone how to level up a character.
The one who does that is oneself.

Isn't this the best possible outcome?
The one we currently have.
>>
>>2730752
>Taking a level of Thug with Valerie was a popular build that did not suit the character in any way.
She's a hardass who's better at intimidating people than she is at fighting. Makes perfect sense to me that she'd work on making that better.
>>
>>2730760
I play tabletop and there is literally nothing wrong with a build that looks like Ranger 2/Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Runescarred Berserker 10/Horizon Walker 4.
>>
>>2730780
>>2730796
Where?
>>
>>2730820
The multiclassing, for the umpteenth time, is not the issue. It's the internal consistency for the character and the roleplay. IF you played scenes and situations that explained how your character came by those classes and it fit his character, that's fine. A sorcerer randomly dipping Vivisectionist and Monk with no explanation and nothing in the RP justifying it, isn't fine. You can play tabletop, but you can't take the videogame player out of you.
>>
>>2730837
See>>2730324
and>>2730233
>>
>>2730845
>It's the internal consistency for the character and the roleplay. IF you played scenes and situations that explained how your character came by those classes and it fit his character, that's fine.
Then why are you advocating for a system where none of this will be possible?
The system you want demands you be select your multiclass long before you ever made those encounters on your journey.
>>
>>2730845
I don't view classes the same way you do and never will.
>>
File: 1629416404704.jpg (176 KB, 700x950)
176 KB
176 KB JPG
The D&D 2e multiclass is more of a heritage system.
For example is Jaheira's mom was a Druid, and her dad was a fighter, it would make sense that she predetermined herself to become half of each before she set out on her adventure.
But this system is superficial.

I like to go back to the BG2 Shadow Thief / Planar sphere example.
This is where Pathfinder shines the best.
You can take Nalia with you to the Planar sphere, the Pathfinder system allows you to inspire her to become a better mage.
Or
You can take Nalia with you to the Shadow Thieves, the Pathfinder system allows you to inspire her to become a better thief.
>>
>>2729605
Kek
>>
>>2728464
On one hand, I'm glad that the system allows me to Monk dip. Not that I would ever do it, but the option for me is there if I ever want to fool around a bit.

On the other hand I feel the Monk is one of those classes that deserves to be invested into with lots of levels.
You get all sorts of cool shit.
You have like multiple different combat style to choose from.
And your fists' damage dice is upgraded as you level up.
That's a good incentive to not monk dip right there.
>>
File: 20220807_172551.jpg (301 KB, 1074x1078)
301 KB
301 KB JPG
>>2730306
For me it was lich.
Death rush+Decaying Touch+Indestructible Bones
>>
>>2730275
>>2730320

This series of posts has been an excellent object lesson demonstration that there are two kinds of RPG players:
People capable of understanding statistics and full RPG enjoyment and midwits that hate builds and dipping.
>>
File: 1655061869220.gif (982 KB, 280x218)
982 KB
982 KB GIF
Am I the only one who is both pro-dipping and anti-dipping?

On my first playthrough I like to keep the experience "pure" so to speak. And normally progress the characters like they were likely intended to be.
Maybe I will repease that to some degree on the 2nd playthrough.
But on the 3rd and future playthroughs I like to change things up. Dip a little bit here and there, try to see if I can get some new experiences with the same characters and so on.
>>
>>2730845
I think the other problem with people that can't build is they lack imagination.
>Be Sorcerer in PKM
>Have to do/witness all kinds of vivisection crap to people during the season of bloom chapter canonically no matter what you're playing.
>Oh hey you decide you dig it and dip Vivi to learn how to do it more accurately after the canon woman dies on the table with the help of Bartholomew and his troll lab.
>Oh hey you were kinda conflicted about all that nasty vivi stuff you learned and retreated to contemplate life in the monastery and clear your conscience for a month.

RP complete. It's not like these games have systems for most of what anyone would want to do within the game anyway, so there's always a massive headcanon component to video game RP even if you're the best tabletop RP player to ever live with the writing chops of Gene Wolfe.
>>
>>2730987
This Anon is correct.

They lack imagination, furthermore they expect to be spoonfed by the dialogue box conversation before they can accept it.
And even then, there is still a huge risk they don't get the hints, just like in your example with the vivisectionist.
>>
>>2730987
Just make sure you take your Vivi level during or after Season of Bloom
>>
>>2730987
This is why I don't mind most dips, but hate heritage based ones, like Sorc and Bloodrager.
>whoops, turns out I had dragon blood all along
Feels like writing a Mary Sue.
>>
>>2731150
On the other hand it's kind cool that there exist some classes that are like that.

You could design an NPC with that in mind. Or you could make an agreement with the GM under the table, and he introduces some NPC who is from your family, and things get revealed and such.
>>
>>2730987
This explanation sucks for a number of reasons. First like another anon already said, you must only dip into vivi during season of the bloom and only after/during that event. Too bad most people dip long before act 1 is even done. Second, you're telling me you liked vivi enough to learn the basics, but then said "nah fuck this im good". Real good rp there. And lastly, you don't need to be a vivi to dissect something, you can just do it. On top of that, there is more to being a vivi than just dissecting stuff. Gotta learn about potions, mutagens, and bombs, something that the prison event doesn't even touch on. Look just dip if you feel like it, but don't half ass a reason as to why you're just stacking the best of all dips.
>>
>>2731189
>>2731207
>Its funny that you try to conjure a RP scenario
He didn't imagine the Seasons of Bloom. It's something that really happened, and your organisation did a lot of it.

Frankly his reasoning to do that dip is probably far better than your reasoning to pick whatever class you picked at the character creation menu.You arrogance is absolutely unjustified.
>>
File: 1644735728554.png (537 KB, 545x545)
537 KB
537 KB PNG
What's next?
Do we need to enroll into Paladin university to become Paladins?
Do we need a certificate quest item and letter of graduation from Paladin exams before the level up manager unlocks the option?

It really sounds like some of you guys want a completely different type of video game than what the developers intended.
>>
>>2731210
>He didn't imagine the Seasons of Bloom
Never said he "imagined" it. That one event only happens once in the middle of season of the bloom. Never once before that event does the player ever think of dissecting anything.

>Frankly his reasoning to do that dip is probably far better than your reasoning to pick whatever class you picked at the character creation menu
Bitch please.

>>2731217
>Do we need to enroll into Paladin university to become Paladins?
If you pick paladin at character creation, then guess what you just did.
>>
>>2731221
>That one event only happens once
The Baron and his mad scientist performed the same thing on the troll test subject.
The spark of inspiration s all you need to become an adventurer and aspire to become whatever class.
>>
>>2731229
>The Baron
No. you don't. You had nothing to do with that, only if he is allowed to continue or not. You didn't know he had a troll.
>>
>>2731239
You were right there observing everything he was doing as you gave him permission to continue, you also saw all of his torturing devices.
>>
>>2731242
You own a dungeon, you've already seen torture devices.
>You were right there observing everything
No you leave as you don't care if his plan works or not. You're only there in the first place to figure out why troll are now fire resistant. He kicks you out when your business is done.
>>
>>2731258
>No you leave as you don't care
Are you that NPC who needs the dialogue text to command you?
Do you not have the imagination to RP what the Baron and the mad doctor experimented on that evening?
Are you a slave of the dialogue box?
>>
>>2731261
Are you an idiot that ignores, "get kicked out"? You don't stay, you don't watch, He would never let you in the first place. But sure keep making stuff up even if it goes against the story that is told to you.
>>
File: 1637956952740.jpg (152 KB, 1002x261)
152 KB
152 KB JPG
>>2731267
>>Are you an idiot that ignores, "get kicked out"?
I didn't get kicked out, mr. NPC.
Me and him became friends, and we had a jolly time dissecting the troll that evening, much to the annoyance of Octavia.

I guess this type of thing is an alien world to you. You don't have the correct brain configuration to read beyond what the dialogue box allows you to think.
>>
>>2731278
>Me and him became friends,
>Still kicks you out.
Thanks for proving my point. Also, nice screen shot of a text box. Didn't know you were a slave to them mister npc.
>>
>>2731279
>Still kicks you out.
It doesn't say that anywhere.

>Didn't know you were a slave to them mister npc.
Are you getting butthurt because I diagnosed you correctly+?
>>
NPCs likes to be pre-programmed with a background story, and then a class. They typically hate to steer away from the path that's programmed to them.
And that's why they hate dipping.

They don't have the agency of thought, so they are incapable of recognizing defining moments when a character can steer off towards a new career.
Instead they will conjure up excuses as to why that would be illegal and continue on their pre-programmed path.

They are probably not even real human beings.
>>
>>2731278
It's fascinating watching you run circles around his limited imagination. It's like having an NPC in a beaker.

>But sure keep making stuff up
>You can't do that dip stuff because it makes me angry that you're not RPing.
>Making stuff up
>Not RPing

Just amazing. You're like a Vivisectionist of his mind right now. There should be a psychic version of the class and we could have better dips for casters too.
>>
>>2731286
Note how the dipper does not and can not justify himself with words like "roleplay", "story" or "continuity." Instead, he attacks everyone else to justify himself.
>>
>>2730745
>stuck with 1 class they can never change.
Now I understand, tranny.
>>
>>2731292
Why is his writing much more entertaining than yours then?
>>
>>2731292
>Note how the dipper does not and can not justify himself with words like "roleplay"
I did do that just now with the example above. It was very simple, but you just didn't like it because you demand proof that Bartholomew handed me the loicense for vivisectionisting.

You have limited yourself to that point.
>>
What's the best way to play sorc if I don't want to end up as lichcel?
Conjuration/Evocation ascendant element electricity and than Stormlords in Blackwater?
>>
>>2731338
lich and aeon are the best mythic paths anon
elemental bloodline sorcerer can do real rad stuff with sirocco gazes elemental barrage and arcane trickster
>>
>>2731338
Azata with Zippy magic and Favorable magic can do blasting and CC incredibly well.

Demon can also do it and reach higher ceilings, but is limited by resources. Also, no Demon aspect that boosts CHA, so maybe go sage sorcerer there fro CC focus. Or wizard.

Aeon and Angel have some okay bonuses (Gazes/Bane and Halo/Sword of Heaven) and only get their retarded stuff at mythic levels after 7.

Do not pick trickster
>>
>>2731280
"Good day your grace" is saying place leave, also know as kicking someone out.
>It doesn't say that anywhere.
So you are an npc, what happened to roleplaying outside of the text box.
>>
>>2731367
>>"Good day your grace"
Nowhere in the text does it say that. Have you become braindead?
>>
>>2730639
Your class defines you deeper than "yeah I gave a few classes with some monks, they teached me this lvl 1 ability"
>>
>>2730756
Yes
>>
>>2730811
One thing is she'd be good at it another entirely different thing is that she would act or even specialize as a thug
>>
>>2731300
No anon, what hing someone do something don't give you a level in any class. Going into a class should be a life defining moment for a character, not some hobby you pick interest and get the first level ability. There is a reason you can try rolls on stuff you are not specialized with, you can make a sorcerer try to punch someone he doesn't like because he is a fan of the fighters guild. That doesn't mean he should get 1 level of fighter
>>
>>2729625
Just make it scale with level like sword saint

Thank me later
>>
>>2731469
Thank you for ruining the game?
>>
>>2731443
To become a monk you typically just train and train and train day in day out.
There is no super secret to this.
>>
File: 1638660803836.jpg (186 KB, 1105x960)
186 KB
186 KB JPG
>>2731462
>Going into a class should be a life defining moment for a character
For example when you realise cutting up people can solve mysteries and save your civilisation. Does that count for you?
So do I need to save the universe as well to to get that inspiration to finally get a new class?

lso you're missing the point entirely. YOU claimed the Season of the bloom was the only time I had seen people getting dissected, I simply used the Bartholomew example to prove you wrong. So now you're doing all sorts of sidestepping.
>>
>>2731367
That's a greeting. Also, you don't get to tell "your grace" to leave. If someone is above you at a level you have to refer to them as "your grace", you have to wait on them.
>>
Smash wenduag or Arue?
>>
>>2731512
Arue is better waifu slave.
>>
>>2731487
I'm not that guy that you were talking earlier, i agree with him thou, season of bloom is a poor excuse for saying you get class abilities.
>>
>>2731515
What kind of achievements do you demand?
Do I need to save all kingdoms in Golarion?
Do I need to save all the planets in the solar system?
Or do I need to save all life in the galaxy?
Or what? The multiverse?
Try to be a little bit more specific about your ballpark.
>>
>>2731481

"Steeped in traditions that trace their origins to the warrior-monks who trained under the tutelage of draconic masters, scaled fists eschew passive introspection in favor of unshakable confidence. Scaled fists learn to combine brutal intimidation with the brazen ferocity of an ancient wyrm to devastate their foes."


"The sensei is a revered teacher who imparts lessons on the oneness of mind, body, and spirit, along with occasional correction that is subtle and swift. Rather than using wisdom for his own benefit alone, he uses it to better those around him."


"Traditional monks walk the strict path of discipline which thousands of predecessors trod before them. They sacrifice the freedom to choose their power in exchange for steeled willpower and the trusted set of traditional abilities."

And so on, these are not just abilities they are a whole lot deeper, it's how you deal with the world.
>>
>>2731519
Or you could just be the traditional Monk, and do the typical tasks a monk would do all day.
>>
>>2731523
Cool, guess you will develop the class then and actually invest levels in it
>>
>>2731526
It's already developed and implemented in the game. And it goes by the same name,
>>
>>2731528
What I mean it's that a traditional monk, per the definition of the game would not just dip in it I would, as I posted earlier, quoting the game "walk the strict path of discipline" of the monastic order
>>
>>2731531
They can do that for a while.It Until they decide it's time to do something else.
This probably upsets you, but you're not going to suddenly lose all of that training you went through when you move on, you take that with you
>>
>>2731532
Actually that's where I disagree, the source of your powers as any class not only comes from the abilities but each has an ingrained source of power, monks for example is their adherence to the strict monastic rules, clerics their faith on their deity and so on
>>
>>2731533
So do I need to be grounded to a particular location and live there until the day I die? Is that what you're saying?
>>
Are instinctual warriors fun? i've only ever played casters in wotr
>>
>>2731536
No I'm no saying that. What I'm saying is your source of power reflects on how your character would act, that usually means not being a jack of all trades, because a lifetime dedication is already a lot.
>>
>>2731545
>What I'm saying is your source of power reflects on how your character would act
Okay, so I need to act like a monk. Glad we cleared that out.
Anything else?
>>
>>2731544
Bloodrager even more fun. Plus you still get to cast your spells.
>>
>>2731547
Really, no that's it
>>
File: 1480551766838.jpg (7 KB, 154x154)
7 KB
7 KB JPG
>>2731544
>bite+animal totem+defensive stance+dual wield+infinite rage mythic abity+monk immunities
Ye
>>
>>2730113
It would be an awful shame then, if your dodge tanks was... caught... flatfooted
>>
>>2729605
Bazed
>>
File: ertdhjasery6.jpg (125 KB, 599x960)
125 KB
125 KB JPG
>>2731512
Disregard slits. Fuck bussy
>>
18 shaman 2 vivisectionist is actually good roleplay for Camellia
>>
>>2734290
ye, too bad she'll never live to see those 20 levels
>>
>>2734290
Vivisectionist is a pretty good roleplay class for Camellia, agreed.
>>
>>2731784
Having high initiative (and immunities so you don't get paralyzed) prevents 99% of those situations.

I guess you could get Uncanny Dodge but it's kind of an awkward multiclass unless you were already going Rogue for Finesse Training or something.
>>
>>2730113
Armor is pretty underwhelming in the vanilla game for the opportunity costs. CoTW has a shitload of stuff addressing this so if you know how to build you can make great armored characters.
>>
>>2728464
I always find that dipping 20 levels into Wizard works pretty well.
>>
File: double dip.png (523 KB, 598x450)
523 KB
523 KB PNG
>>2728464
>>
I feel like i cant have fun with Class/character building in CRPGs
The combat system and your paper doll are so abstract/shitty i never pick the flavor choice i would do in other games and always end up with the same number autism
>>
What should I make out of Wenduag?
20 levels of Fighter?
Hunter Wandering Marksman?
>>
>>2737272
>What should I make out of Wenduag?
a corpse
>>
>>2737272
>What should I make out of Wenduag?
A wife
>>
>>2737282
>>2737283
Come on you guys, help me out here.
I have decided;
Seelah 20 Paladin
Camellia 20 Shaman
Lann 20 Zen Archer
Just need to decide on Wendu?
Are these builds good?
>>
>>2737292
i dont know about the other characters but for lann you can take monk 3 and build him as any other wis class like sanctified slayer
>>
>>2737292
A popular build for wendu is axe thrower, can work with 20 fighter or you could go slayer
>>
>>2737299
I think Zen Archer looks pretty good so I want to stick to that.

>>2737303
Why Axe Thrower?
>>
>>2737305
zen archer doesnt offer shit past level 3 if you want a brainlet build that just auto attacks you may as well just go slayer for the sneak attacks
>>
>>2737312
I don't actually know anything about Zen Archer but it has a cool name.
>>
>>2737305
I guess because with rapid shot and dual wield you get a billion attack and throwing axes have better options than javelin? Combine this with sneak attack and talent that drain con or str and you have a pretty decent damage dealer
>>
>>2737316
I don't know about the meme difficulty but I played on core and didn't multiclass companions or myself (played the rogue class with hex) and I was fine so do whatever.
>>
What the fuck is the point of giving Paladin DR/Evil when the Paladin is supposed to hunt evil creatures which will naturally have Evil in their attacks???
>>
>>2737327
Ooo I see. Very nice. Thanks!

>>2737330
I'm playing on Core but with respec enabled and less enemies because fuck that, the game has enough demons already.

I think I should be fine. I'm playing Monk Sorc tank.
>>
>>2737333
Because fuck you
>>
How many of those items adding spells are in wotr? I know dark omen for necro, red salamander for fire and the stormlord bracer, anything else?
>>
>>2737353
Acid ring in the midnight fane puzzle, boreal ring sold by storyteller in chapter 4, and Angel has a holy buff ring in his act 4 sidequest
>>
>>2737312
It can be worth it to go up to 11 for some dice scaling and the second hit from flurry of blows, but i'd still pick another class after that
>>
>>2737369
Thanks buddy, it's funny how they're much better at giving you spells than mystery or bloodlines. Why bother with flame oracle when you could pick anything else and just use red salamander for better spells?
>>
>>2737339
If you want to understand why everyone says 3 zen archer its because
>wisdom bonus to hit chance
>weapon focus on a bow
>improved unarmed strike (not relevant since you wont go cranewang but still nice)
>three archer feats
>point blank master
3 zen archer is the perfect dip for any wisdom bow user. It being locked to bows I guess being its balance.
>>
>>2728464
Why the fuck would I want to be a chinaman???
>You can heckin' pun-
I have swords.
>>
>>2737382
Very nice. Thank you!

>>2737372
What other class would you recommend for Lann?
>>
>>2737382
doesn't zen archer also get a feat that allows him to use wisdom instead of strength when calculating composite bow damage?
>>
>>2729486
>>2729754
>>2730085
>>2730331
Mental illness. Dipping is exploiting a critical flaw of multiclass systems by allowing the option to steal all of the frontloaded features of a class's kit which not only gives them their identity, but also tends to hold the best abilities of said class. All this does is is form a strict hierarchy between the 'mains', which are worth leveling, and the dips that are forever shoved into a level 1 ghetto to be exploited by a player that wants to circumvent nearly all of their build's flaws with very minimal investment and/or buff existing strengths.
>>
>>2737399
>All this does is is form a strict hierarchy
Nonsense.
Rogue 19 Monk 1 is just as fun to play as Monk 16 Rogue 4.
>>
>>2737398
The wisdom modifer doesnt end up beinh significant since lann already has busted stats.
>>
>>2737396
Anything that needs strength, wis or dex can work with Lann.
A standard Zen 3-4 multiclass would be for classes like sacred huntmaster, divine hound, bow heavy cleric/druid etc where you raise your wise for AB and complimenting spellcasting
>>
>>2737399
This. Those level 1 abilities are supposed to represent the long initial training that the character went through. It's the difference between commoner and an actual trained class. Taking a first level of something would mean your character taking a couple of years out to get educated.
>>
>>2737398
I don't think so? They get increased arrows dmg because they're treated like a fist for the regular monk. Another small advantage of ZA is being able to get enlarged with less AB penalty since you use wis
>>
>>2737409
What if your dip is your first lvl? Like your parents gave you to a monastery where you trained all your life until you said fuck it and ran away?
>>
>>2737272
I made her Figher 4/Divine Hound 16 and don't regret this
>>
>>2737399
Dipping is a feature of the system and some classes are designed to be just dips if you just want to mash the same level up button then play something else
>>
>>2737432
>some classes are designed to be just dips
It's always the most ignorant fuckers telling people they should play something else while they ignorantly announce their stupid fucking ignorance.
>>
>>2737407
Sounds good.
Not sure if I want to fiddle with all that spellcasting though...

>>2737416
What does Divine Hound add?
>>
>>2737435
Not my problem i will keep dipping and you will keep seething
>>
>>2737438
Dip away, I don't give a ratfuck what you do. But the classes weren't "designed for dipping." They just weren't designed to prevent it.
>>
>>2737440
>They just weren't designed to prevent it.
So in other words designed for dipping why else would you give 90% of a classes features at level 1 or 2?
>>
>>2737437
Full level pet, divine spells + judgments
>>
>>2737411
I'll let you have that one.
>>
>>2737440
>They just weren't designed to prevent it.
dnd had a system in place that prevented excessive dipping. don't know why they got rid of it in pozzfinder
>>
>>2737454
You can dip like that in the tabletop game too? I tought it was owlcat that didn't bother
>>
>>2737444
Oh I see. Her WIS is pretty low though and judgements are so fiddly.
>>
>>2737456
i wouldn't know actually. last time i played tt pozzfinder was like 10 years ago
>>
>>2737456
There is nothing stopping you but the DM saying 'makes no fucking snese you realized you have sorcerer bloodline and heard the calling of Torag t obe a paladin while you are not a dwarf and picked sweet mvoes from that tavern brawl and became a brawler'
>>
>>2737457
I just really needed that fucking pet. It's hard for me to fill up frontline on my evil run
>>
>>2737462
Ah I see. Guess that's one way of doing it.
>>
Does an underground chemist 4/ grenadier 16 sneak attack with bomb and does it applies debilitating injuries?
>>
>>2737469
Is there a point in gaining 2d6 sneaks when you lose 2d6 from the bombs?
>>
>>2737473
You can get 3d6 with a feat and if debilitating injuries work with it a small debuff.
All things considered it's probably not worth it, don't really see the point of underground chemist then
>>
>>2737473
and you lose grenadier capstone
legend grenadier 20/ underground chemist 20 is the only sensible way to make it work
>>
Do I lose anything important if I set the Crusade on Auto?
Because I did lol.
>>
>>2737493
Idk if you get the items for defeating some of the enemies
>>
>>2737493
Yes you lose the best part of the game
>>
>>2737495
Is anything important there?

>>2737497
This Crusade shit sucks.
>>
>>2728464
I don't know who that is but I'd fuck them. Incidentally is a monk even a good class? Last time I played kingmaker I got fucking rolled constantly as a sorcerer.
>>
>>2737500
It's a good dip class yes
>>
>>2737500
Yeah sohei is good
>>
File: 1620903535746.jpg (373 KB, 948x877)
373 KB
373 KB JPG
>give wenduag a dog
>give seelah glaive so she doesn't embarrass herself as tank anymore
>finish unfair shield maze without much problem
At last I truly see
>>
>>2737454
>don't know why they got rid of it
About 98% of the player base ignored the penalty.

So what would youl do if you were Paizo?
Listen to 98% of your player base?
Or listen to the 2% who get butthurt at how other people play the game?
>>
>>2737503
It's also a good full class. One of the few classes that can trip opponent on a full attack round.
>>
>>2737582
>So what would youl do if you were Paizo?
I would provide rules for controlling dipping retardation that people are free to ignore if they wish
>>
>>2737606
Those rules would be implemented in video games and upset the 98% of your player base though, so you're clearly far more retarded than Paizo could ever be.
>>
>>2731217
On tabletop things like that are done in-between adventures. Like you finish one adventure and the GM goes "nothing interesting happens for the next two months, how does your character spend this time?" and you get to fill in the blanks yourself, whether you work smaller jobs, spend most of your time training, try to join the local paladin order, just spend the entire period wasting your loot on whores and booze, or anything else you can think of.

It's not part of the actual game and you don't play it out, it just a short description of what happens during the party's downtime and depending on the GM might give you some bonuses like starting the next adventure with some extra cash, free skillpoints, a new class, or whatever.
>>
>>2737582
>If I make up some statistics I can pretend to have a point
Weak.
>>
>>2737620
I remember back in ed 3dition spending every big break preparing Changestaff for my druid
>>
>>2737612
>and upset the 98% of your player base though
good. Fuck normies
>>
>>2737660
That crowd is on 5th edition. You keep trying to justify retarded ideas with falsehoods, it's not the way to win any arguments.
>>
I can't remember pathfinder that well, what are the relevant dips besides Monk for AC?
>>
>>2737684
If you try to win arguments by pulling """"""statistics"""""" out of your ass then that's the kind of arguments you're gonna get
>>
>>2737689
Vivi 1
Pal 3
Instinctual warrior 2
Nature oracle 1
>>
>>2737732
How do these help?
>>
>>2737749
anon, for fuck's sake, just read the description fo their skills
>>
>>2737757
It's too complicated...
>>
How many levels of Slayer should I get for Wenduag and Lann?
>>
>>2737767
lann is a good boy, he shouldn't be an assassin
>>
File: IMG_2241[1].jpg (582 KB, 1539x753)
582 KB
582 KB JPG
>20 Cavalier of the Paw MC
>Vanilla Halfling, Pickpocket
>Dex 19/Int 14
>Max Athletics/mobility
>1. Weapon Focus
>3. Weapon Finesse
>5. Two weapon fighting
>7. Improved two weapon fighting
>9. Combat Reflexes
>11. Improved Critical
>13. Spirited charge
>15. Greater two weapon fighting
>17. Double Slice
>19. Piranha Strike
>Bonus Feats: Indomitable mount, Mounted Combat and whatever
>Tactician Bonus Feats: Shake it Off, Outflank and Seize the Moment
>Mythic Feats: Weapon Finesse, Improved Critical, Two Weapon Fighting
>Mythic Abilities: Mythical Beast, Ever Ready, Mythic Charge, Last Stand
>Dual wielding scimitars
>Dog
Rate my hobbit shitter.
>>
>>2737777
hobbits are for taking human cock in brothels, not for fight
>>
>>2737777
Two weapon fighting seems like a waste desu and miss out on better charging weapons. With a dog you probably benefit most from something that might cause aoo with your dog. Also cavalier gets fighter levels for purposes of feat.
>>
>>2737689
There is one that lets you convert all spells to a specific element.
3 sacred huntsmen (more kingmaker)
4 freebooter
>>
>>2737797
The idea was to make use of the dex bonus halflings gets. Curved Elven Blade is an option, but that means just under half as many crits on average.

>With a dog you probably benefit most from something that might cause aoo with your dog
That's the idea behind dual wielding scimitars. The damage might be low, but there's more opportunities to crit and trigger Seize the Moment.

>Also cavalier gets fighter levels for purposes of feat
Are you sure about that? I don't remember seeing Greater Weapon Focus when looking at feats on a merc.
>>
>>2737831
Why wouldn't you use kukri?
>>
>>2737837
1d4 vs 1d3. There are also Scimitars in the game, unlike the two or three Kukris in Wrath.
>>
>>2737712
I got those statistics from you though, back when I criticised 3e and you defended it by saying nobody used it.
Get rekt bitch.
>>
>>2737875
that wasn't me, schizo-kun
>>
>>2737443
>why else would you give 90% of a classes features at level 1 or 2?
So each class would have its own identity right from the start and you didn't need like 5 levels of Monk to feel like a Monk. What kind of retarded question is this?
>>
>take monk dip
>can't get Soul of the Fey
No thanks, that would ruin my RP and immersion.
>>
>>2738034
>can't get Soul of the Fey
You can if you are legend.

If fact, any Legend who doesn't make use of his Mythic advantages to dip is a massive faggatron.
>>
>>2738034
>Soul of the Fey
>You gain immunity to poison and DR 10/cold iron. Creatures of the animal type do not attack you unless compelled to do so through magic. Once per day, you can cast shadow walk as a spell-like ability using your sorcerer level as your caster level.
That's a lame capstone.

Check this out instead:
https://pathfinderwrathoftherighteous.wiki.fextralife.com/Fury+of+the+Fey
>>
Speaking of Legend, what's the best 20/20 setup for a Martial starting from FTR 20?
>>
>>2738056
>what's the best
The dipper class.
>>
>>2738056
I could make arguments for pounce, teleporting, boost to saves, adding sneaks and mutagens. Hard to pick one class to go for 20 levels.
>>
>>2728464
"no"
>>
>>2729934
Nothing. Only martials gain anything from it, and even then the utility is debatable.
>>
>>2731450
Your mistake is insisting that classes are supposed to be in-universe concepts rather than just meta-terminology that broadly describes stereotypes to which certain skills and abilities are attributed.

Don't think of it as Valerie literally deciding to becoming Thug-like, but rather focusing on abilities that only one with meta-knowledge would associate with Thug. In-universe it's just Valerie learning to weaponize her presence to be more imposing to her foes.
>>
>>2737272
Honestly not keeping her as a fighter is sub-par. Auto-confirm crits when she gets like 10 attacks per round is just too stronk. Especially if you're going trickster.
>>
>Martial
>Trickster
>Legend
whats the Goblin Slayer fit?
>>
>>2737292
>Seelah 20 Paladin
Best possible way to build her. Paladin kit only gets better and better as the levels go up.
>Camellia 20 Shaman
Honestly not worth taking more levels of Shaman after she gets level 9 spells, so 17-18 levels. I like giving her either three levels in Mutation fighter for mutagen and +BAB or two levels in Instinctual warrior if going to level 18 for an additional level 9 spell slot.
>Lann 20 Zen Archer
Personally I always go 1 monk/19 demonslayer with him. Though on harder difficulties you might want to go hunter since it gets a pet at level 1, which helps a lot and remains viable to the very end.
>>
>>2738129
He is someone who would reject mythic powers, because reasons.
And then he will constantly dip into worthless archetypes that are only good at goblins.
>>
>>2737398
Only to attack rolls. But it's not really relevant since it's much easier to boost dex and strength, which he already has plenty of.
>>
>>2737411
I think this makes more sense for a background trait.
>>
>>2738131
Seelahs paladin hits a pretty big power spike at 11. You could probably get away with a lot of value from Gendarme. if you want her to get physical or you can get freebooter which matches her personality and the fact that shes slow as shit.
>>
>>2737797
>With a dog you probably benefit most from something that might cause aoo with your dog.
His build already has both outflank and seize the moment. Charging weapons also aren't really that much benefit when pounce exists.
>>
>>2737849
There is that one absolutely busted kukri in Areelu's lab that procs double elemental barrage with literally every hit, also no malus from using heavy weapons which you unfortunately lack weapon training to offset.
>>
>>2738131
I'd argue that a paladin has no reason to take levels beyond 17, and can sleep at 11 or 14 comfortably depending on how many times you throw mark of justice (though with mythic ability and some items that raise number, progression of class is less paramount suddenly after a certain point)
>>
>>2738145
>>2738138
I think having the max number of marks is very helpful at the endgame. The bonuses to saves for all allies are also real nice.
>>
>>2738151
At the very end of the game every mark matters for the gallu warmongers who will solo your entire team in one round sometimes with multiple level 9 spell casts. Rest of the game is much more fair because they throw a ton of trash at you instead of deadly creatures.
>>
>>2738151
I actually used Galfrey's shared smites far less than I thought at the endgame. Like 5 times total for Khoradamzeh, Vavakia vanguard, Areelu, Deskarri.
>>2738156
The problem was not connecting with them or doing enough damage, it was initiative and tsunami sending 3 members of the team prone.
>>
>>2738161
Mark of justice certainly helps with actually hitting their redonkiculous stat lines and yeah you're right them going first and casting multiple spells is awful. However, mark of justice isn't as broken as it was in the past when you could give +20 to hit with touch of glory I believe they fixed it now.
>>
>>2738161
>I actually used Galfrey's shared smites far less than I thought at the endgame. Like 5 times total for Khoradamzeh, Vavakia vanguard, Areelu, Deskarri.
You might be right. But still, if you don't know what to expect it's very nice to have.
>>
>>2738127
I tried the cult leader build idea on her and felt like it was awful. her stat lines benefit a martial way too much to pass up.
>>
>>2738167
Specifically fighter too, there is nothing in the ranger kit that benefits her as much as weapon training, weapon specialization and weapon mastery does.
>>
>>2738171
>weapon mastery
You probably choose either getting this with 20 figher or go 12 fighter and play something you get sneak attacks while also getting feats (since she needs them a lot) .
>>
>>2738163
Galfrey gives +15 to hit pretty naturally at least
>>2738171
Sneak dice is nice when you have many attacks per round with sense vitals. Also, Favored enemy demons bonuses go up quite a bit. But I'd still pick freebooter if I had to pick a ranger archetype
>>
>>2738179
>Sneak dice is nice when you have many attacks per round with sense vitals.
The problem there is you can't really benefit from this on enemies not engaged in melee, which really hurts when her purpose is to delete the enemy backline.
>>
>>2738038
>>2738043
Oh right I forgot people started playing Wrath of the Righteous before it was finished, I meant for Kignmaker, my bad.
>>
>>2738167
Cult leader? Who came up with that terrible idea?
>>
>>2738183
its one of the most popular wenduag builds ig because it has sneak attacks and offers the chance to use them when you normally cant using stealth.
>>2738180
ways to cause flatfooted
>>
>>2738185
>its one of the most popular wenduag builds ig because it has sneak attacks and offers the chance to use them when you normally cant using stealth.
What about feats and AB? You're right about the flat-footed shit, but for practical reasons that won't really come online until you have either frightful aspect or a martial with dreadful carnage, both of which come fairly late.
>>
>>2738195
Well in the builds defense lanns the man so you dont get her until act v.
>>
>>2738208
Even in that scenario you'd be better off going slayer though.
>>
File: 1659615352152090.gif (2.58 MB, 414x386)
2.58 MB
2.58 MB GIF
I just killed Tristian for refusing to give me the Occulus. I wad ripshit that he didn't have the balls to stop my enemies from getting it and happily handed it to them, but suddenly it was worth fighting to keep it out of the world when I would have it instead of a fey maniac, how fucked am I?
>>
>>2738213
It was pretty bad. But really why would you ever take her over lann? I guess if you are horny.
>>
>>2738225
She does a lot of damage from start to finish, that's really it.
>>
>>2738226
Rather have woljif or arue for my rogue skill monkeys though
>>
Holy shit I just realized that Pathfinder Kingmaker would only be 40-50 hours long without the Kingdom Management/loading screen padding.
>>
>>2738436
Kingdom management isn't so bad once you get the hang out it but yeah the loading screen and poor performance of it opening it left much to be desired. I liked many elements of it (but hated the crusade mechanics n wotr) but it wasn't very effecient. It was a good roleplay experience though
>>
>>2738436
It's the same with wrath
>>
Is Through the Ashes worth playing lads? Inevitable Excess was ok, maybe a little too easy, but I guess that's inevitable (lmao) when it's a max level adventure.
>>
>>2730200
that sounds perfectly fine but it kind of falls apart with the classes that are themed around special ancestry
>>
>>2730356
observe my ass. you don't pick up skills unless you actively practise them

now if you'll excuse me, im off to watch some youtube videos of pianists until im a pro
>>
File: xywlivl0xwudfgzp5c71.jpg (101 KB, 1200x675)
101 KB
101 KB JPG
Is this a good portrait for Trickster?
>>
>>2738589
Yoshimo does the demonstration.
you can ply with the opened locks after he is done unlocking them to show you.

Oh wait, I forgot you guys are incapable of roleplaying.
>>
>>2738593
Yes that's the thing but at this point I can't follow who's replying to who. Of course it's fine if you roleplay it, get people to guide you, spend your offtime pratictising sleight of hand and lockpicking until your next levelup. That's not what's been said before though
>>
File: Joker-Jared-Leto.jpg (151 KB, 704x1024)
151 KB
151 KB JPG
>>2738590
Use this one instead.
>>
>>2738597
>That's not what's been said before though
You're in Rogue university.
You have an expert in your party who canonically in-game does demonstrations for everybody.
It's just a matter of play pretend, just imagine your party had a nice time discussing all of those fascinating locks in the room and that you played wiht the locks after they were shown how to be done.
>>
>>2738598
No way.
That one is DAMAGED.
>>
>>2738604
You're undersellilng it

I don't dislike the dual classing rules in 2E. The handbook makes it clear that this is a serious undertaking and of course there is the expectation that this requires significant roleplay investment from the player. The fact that you can only dual once and doing so temporarly reduces the effectiveness of your character represent the fact that you can't spend just a couple of weeks and pick up all the skills that a lvl1 character has spent half of their young life accruing. 3E and PF are very different in that you can supposedly train traces of dragon ancestry in your blood and other silly things like that
>>
>>2738610
>are very different in that you can supposedly train traces of dragon ancestry in your blood
That's the same even for people who have those ancestry class from level 1.

The difference is here you usually find out about your ancestry late into your life through some coincidences.
>>
>>2738610
>I don't dislike the dual classing rules in 2E
I kind of do.

for example Nalia, she is incapable of gaining Thief levels, regardless of the facilities you have access to.
Regardless of how Yoshimo in-canon talks about mentoring her.
>>
>>2738619
to each his own i guess.

dual classing in 2E is really a career change. that time spent asking people for guidance, observing, trying, experimenting? that's what EVERYONE does in their main class. It's not something you do for a little while to justify a dip then never mention again. in nalia's case she stopped doing that for her thief abilities because she needed that time and effort to focus on her magic skills. you can't do that if you're still spending that time and energy on the skills of your old class. Rulewise you get some weird shit going on like your old class levels being disabled until your new class surpasses it but I can kind of see the reasoning behind it. In fact that's just a baldur's gate thing: in the PNP version it's more like a test: you can still use your old abilities (very tempting if a fight is going really poorly) but doing so removes your dual class progress. 2E just seems to treat learning a class as a much bigger and harder deal than the editions after it and I like that idea

Bit of a tangent but I think they should have reversed Nalia's levels: her first class should be mage because that leans more into her formal upbringing and then she should have dualed to thief to represent her more rebellious character. There too I would completely understand that she wouldn't gain any more mage levels because that's not who she is anymore.

I think it boils down to a very different view on what a class represents but personally, it's one of the things if miss from 2E.
>>
>>2738614
I agree but I'm just frustrated that my 5E group has someone who coincidentally has eladrin blood as well as dragon blood and giant blood in him
>>
>>2738630
>in nalia's case she stopped doing that for her thief abilities because she needed that time and effort to focus on her magic skills. you can't do that if you're still spending that time and energy on the skills of your old class.
That's a lie.
In the real world you can have 1 career, quit the job, restart all over in a new career, quit that job, then go back to your first career.
For example if a pandemic happens, your restaurant closes.
You get a new job. Eventually your restaurant is allowed to reopen.
You go back to your restaurant.

Plus the 2e system killed the immersion you had between Yoshimo and Nalia.

>her first class should be mage because that leans more into her formal upbringing and then she should have dualed to thief to represent her more rebellious character
I think so as well.
But even here I would wouls still argue this is a matter of mindset.
Perhaps you go into a situation where her thief skills were insufficient, a party member was killed.
She remembers back to her old upbringing, she remembers the legends of the powerful abilities the magic could enable her.
The trauma of a dying friend could alter her childish rebellious attitude and reignite her search for more powerful spells.

It's not like her brain itself became unable to cast/scribe/learn spells.
>>
>>2738644
It's not a lie because that's what it says in the rulebook
>In the real world you can have 1 career, quit the job, restart all over in a new career, quit that job, then go back to your first career.
Yes and that sets you back. Interrupt your university studies for a year to work? You'll notice that when you get back

again: two completely different visions on what a class represents. neither is 100% realistic
>>
>>2738652
It doesn't have to be education.
You could be a really skilled michelin star chef.
And the lockdowns could theoretically last 10 years.
You're not going to unlearn your old abilities.
>>
>You're not going to unlearn your old abilities.
I forgot to add:
And you're not going to lose your ability to re-progress as a chef.

This is why Pathfinder is the more accurate and fair system in my opinion.
>>
>>2738658
>>2738654
again: the old system and the new system have a very different idea on what a class represents
>>
>>2738661
The thing is, with Pathfiner you can represent both views.

For example if you build Nalia, and you want ot get really hardcore into the roleplaying and your background as a noble who was trained in magic but you rebelled.
Simply add 1-2 mage levels.
Then go Rogue levels. And force yourself to ignore the mage levels.

Pathfinder can emulate 2e in that sense if you want to build that particular character.
>>
>>2738663
true but i think it will be approached from a different mindset where people look for some a-la-carte build that gives them what they want and then they roleplay around it

that's fine, it's just how it is. a different kind of game. i play a lot of 5e too and see that change there as well. i think i'm becoming an old coot and i miss the simplicity of the good old days
>>
>>2738668
But in singleplayer computer games, you are now allowed unrestricted ability to choose.

And I trust you will choose well for how you want to roleplay a character. You have the ability to emulate 2E on dual classing.
You sort of have the ability to sort of emulate 2E on multiclassing.
>>
>>2738131
I think Paladin is pretty strong in this game except for the damage reduction/evil they get which is very dumb considering we are fighting demons.

I feel like if I went 18 levels of Shaman then might as well go all the way.

Zen Archer just seems amazing for Lann.

>>2738127
>>2738167
>>2738171
I guess Fighter it is then.
Never played with a level 20 Fighter before.
>>
>>2729479
>>2729480
>>2729607
WHAT FUCKING DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE PURE WIZARD AND CLERIC ARE STILL THE BEST
>>
If you're playing a cleric or paladin of iomedae how do you justify not going legend?
>>
>>2738706
Being a Cleric/Paladin doesn't mean you are your deity's slave.
>>
>>2738708
Wouldn't she take your powers away realistically?
>>
>>2738713
That would be like cutting her own nose to spite her face. You are still on the same side.
Iomedae is mature enough to prioritise her goals over her personal feelings.
>>
File: 1642495849026.jpg (230 KB, 1227x477)
230 KB
230 KB JPG
>>2738698
>PURE CLERIC IS STILL THE BEST
Actually here is no reason to make a pure cleric.

10 Cleric / 10 Loremaster is always better.
10 Cleric / 10 Hellknight Signifer is also better.
Even the 10 Cleric / 10 Eldritch Knight is better in many ways.
>>
>>2738721
How is Signifer any better than the regular Hellknight which is garbage?
>>
>>2738722
It's a prestige class for spellcasters.

As you can see the cleric offers nothing from level 10 to level 20.
So anything offered by the Hellknight Signifer is a bonus.
>>
Whoops, looks like this one isn't possible. I always forget to read prerequisites.
>Even the 10 Cleric / 10 Eldritch Knight is better in many ways.
>>
File: 1655399922940.png (218 KB, 512x512)
218 KB
218 KB PNG
>>2738698
If you're really, REALLY daring, you can do this:

Cleric 5 / Loremaster 5 / Hellknight Signifer 10
This is the Ultimate cleric.
>>
>>2738731
>>2738721
Does your domain keep progressing?
>>
>>2738737
I think so. Domain spells is just an additional spell slot that is restricted to a lesser selection.
>>
>>2738740
It's the power that matters like animal companion, guarded heart or touch of madness
>>
>>2738744
>animal companion
Hmm, in that case, then
Cleric 16 / Hellknight Signifer 1 / Loremaster 3
>>
>>2738714
Toot toot
>>
File: aog.jpg (192 KB, 1197x676)
192 KB
192 KB JPG
>>2728464
>>2738644
>>2738652
Here is the final summary and /thread:

In 2nd ed, the xp penalties of tabletop for multiclassing were just there to handicap you against other players and keep you from hogging the whole show because in the truly and completely open world of PnP, flexibility is much more OP than the specialization that becomes OP in CRPG as you're ultimately dealing with a mostly known set of inputs.

As less and less people play tabletop because computers are better at removing number crunching tedium, as well as moving humanity into a completely atomized, virtualized, society with zoom meetings for work and telehealth for medicine, specialization and stacking multiclass bonuses will continue to win out in the CRPG, JRPG, ARPG et al dominant landscape until AI is able to fully replace a human DM and more and more editions will reflect and be influenced by that across any system whether it's Pathfinder, GURPs, or Gygax's actual successor system Mythus/Dangerous Journeys. Even in the pure PNP days, systems were moving away from tedium which is why 2nd ed. inventory, saving throw, and THAC0 math barely exist anymore and why Mythus never got off the ground.

The arc of the universe will continue on this path no matter if you whine against it with autistic RP arguments against it or for it with well reasoned RP creativity. They're both just justifications for playing the systems that you like in a world where technology is slowly replacing people, whether that "tech" came from analog paper or bits in a computer. While I have a great respect for some of those oldest systems and their creators and wish someone would take up the gauntlet of adopting something like Mythus for CRPG, it's evident from this thread that most people trying to whine to hang on to the oldest of systems seem to be the same people that are at most risk for being replaced by a machine in the first place because they lack creativity and any real adaptability in the first place.

QED
>>
>>2738721
>10 Cleric / 10 Loremaster is always better.
Lose half your domain levels, lose half your channeling bonus, gimp your HP, gimp your saves, gimp your BAB.

>10 Cleric / 10 Hellknight Signifer is also better.
wtf is this nonsense? Signifier has some use if you want to be an armored arcane caster, but almost no utility for a divine caster. And the couple of abilities it does get isn't worth all the losses.

>10 Cleric / 10 Eldritch Knight
Oh, you're just a retard. Eldritch Knight are arcane only. You literally can't be a Cleric/EK.
>>
>>2738906
But multiclassing was removed from the latest edition of Pathfinder, something most players appear to be happy with as it once again shifts the focus back to party synergy and every role is useful.
>>
I am meleeing with 12 STR and I can't seem to hit anything...
>>
>>2738932
What difficulty are you playing on? 12 str. should be fine for early levels. Try having Camellia cast bull's strength or enlarge person on you.
>>
>>2738940
Core difficulty.
Just reached the tavern now.
I managed to beat Hosilla and the Water Elemental and just reached Level 2.
I guess I'll be fine?
I can't hit anything but nothing can hit me either lol.
>>
>>2729605
lol
>>
they could fix dipping just by balancing the fucking levelling properly, maybe getting benefits for reaching level 20? Or actually being able to reach it, looking at kingmaker here
>>
>>2738943
What class are you playing and what's your entire statblock like?
>>2738948
>they could fix dipping just by balancing the fucking levelling properly, maybe getting benefits for reaching level 20?
There's a ton of classes that are best staying single-classed. They also did fix it in Pathfinder 2e by introducing archetypes and dispensing with multiclassing entirely.
>>
>>2738917
Technically, signifer is supposed to progress domains normally, so after lv 8, you'd lose nothing and gain a few things
Channeling is also very low on priority
>>
>>2738951
1 Monk
1 Sorcerer
Lots of Dex and Cha lol
>>
>>2738956
MAD builds are generally sub-par.
>>
>>2738959
I think it'll turn out pretty good!
Going for Dragon Disciple.
>>
>>2738948
You can reach 20 easily in PKM, play with a 4 member party or less, have much stronger and flexible characters earlier and enjoy less inventory management tedium too. Just don't forget the setting to change XP so it only goes to your active members.
>>
>>2738948
That's what Pathfinder already did. It just didn't do it well enough.
>>
>>2738906
what are you smoking?
>>
>>2738737
No, you wont learn your higher level domain abilities.
>>
>minagho tells me to kiss her hoof
Where is the
>submit and smooch Minagho's hoof
option?
I thought this was an RPG.
>>
>>2739278
Angels dont negiotate with demons
>>
>>2739208
Depends on the domain power. Some are not round per level but depended on modifier. And really, 10 roudns of guarded heart are enough
>>
Is Woljiff's base class any good or should I make him an Arcane Trickster?
>>
>>2739401
>Is Woljiff's base class any good
No.
>should I make him an Arcane Trickster?
No.
>>
>>2739483
Then what should I do with this ugly asshole?
>>
>>2739483
DO NOT say Vivi
>>
>>2739487
Bench him Tbh. Though if you really want to use him, you could take levels in saint, vivisectionist, fighter or slayer into eldritch knight, just straight fighter/slayer etc.
>>2739488
Gets him a lot more than staying as a rogue or speccing into one of the worst prestige classes in the game Tbh.
>>
>>2739488
Since the Eldritch Scoundrel gives him Evasion and Sneak Attack, you could try to build on that.

Maybe with a Duelist.
Add another Edritch scoundrel level for the Debilitating injury.
>>
>pick warpriest
>plan to enlarge myself and smash with a greatsword
>using the class feature actually makes my weapon weaker
I guess I could just not use it but it kind of bugs me.
>>2739483
What's so bad about his class anyway
>>
>>2739775
>What's so bad about his class anyway
Lose uncanny dodge means you lose your flank immunity.
Lose half of your Rogue Talents, 5 instead of 10.
6D6 sneak attacks instead of 10D6.

And for what? What do you get in return?
Arcane Cantrips woooohoooooooooo.
You get a single level 2 spell slot when you are level 4, yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaw
You get a single level 3 spell slot when you are level 7, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
You get a single level 4 spell slot when you are level 10.
You get a single level 5 spell slot when you are level 13.
You get a single level 6 spell slot when you are level 16...
>>
File: 1641291402748.png (413 KB, 666x666)
413 KB
413 KB PNG
Kitsune Mixed-Blood Rager
With Fey + Undead bloodlines
This is absolutely a deadly build.

You get to charge with Pounce,
Everything you charge at gets Shaken,
Not even difficult terrain can hinder your charge.
Every charge you make grants you Blur for 1 round for free,
You get permanent Ghost Touch for free,
You get permanent Haste for free,
Plant-type enemies are absolutely fucked if they ever go against you,
You get 13 Damage Reduction instead of 5,
You get Permanent universal Bane that works on everything and anything (+2 weapon enchantment + 2D6 damage).
>>
I dont know if im psycho or something but this game doesnt let me be evil enough

Like even if i pretend sex doesnt exist because of distribution reasons, even on the kill/torture end there are not enough options
>>
So I can have 5k Skeletons and zombies just sitting in Lost Chapel doing fuckall while Setsuna one mans the Worldwound but don't get any military points until I slowly buy jobbers every week?

That about right?
>>
this thread is autistic and weird
i play my classes straight without dipping into anything
and i only play the classes that arent freakshit stuff
>>
>>2739823
You're lucky there's room for you in this system. it would really suck if people suddenly petitioned to ban all the straight classes you like.
>>
>>2739810
Pretty much everything here can be applied to your entire party if you just make a skald mercenary with enduring spells lmao
>>
>>2739828
Skjalds are gay.
>>
>>2739828
>everything
That word doesn't mean what you think it means.
>>
>>2739829
Not nearly as gay as unironically playing kitsune.
>>
>>2739830
I could have been more precise and said everything *actually useful*, sure.
>>
>>2739832
This is just a cope attempt to save face.
>>
>>2739834
I stand by it.
>>
>>2739837
You stand by words that say nothing, because because that's the type of person you are.
>>
>minagho is over level 20
Is this normal?
Shouldn't she be near godlike with those levels?
>>
>>2739780
You can get uncanny dodge, just later
>>
>>2739843
Monster levels/HD are not class levels, and levels alone do not make a deity
>>
>>2739890
At the cost of a Rogue talent. So now you only have 4, vs 10.

In fact if you want improved uncanny dodge (which was also removed) then you now only have 3 Rogue talents compared to a Thug / Rogue / KnifeMaster / Rowdy who have 10.
>>
>>2739488
Incense synthesiser and use him as a debuff bot for your dc caster



Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.