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We can all agree Isamu's Reason is the only one good one right?
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>>2722706
The idea that everyone gets to go live in their own ideal worlds is nice, but I don't trust that it'd actually work like that in practice.
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>>2722706
yes

every "cycle" will inevitably decay and need to be rebooted so we might as well get a comfy cycle going
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>>2722706
That's not Shijima though.
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>>2722706
All of them are retards. Even Lucifer.
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>>2722733
My understanding was that you would be the only living entity in that universe though. Would probably get pretty lonely. I'm sure the hikkis here would find that pretty nice, but an eternity of it sounds miserable and boring.
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>>2723031
Shut up, YHVH.
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>>2723046
Not really - you can just create a world where your own version of humans (or even catgirls) loves you unconditionally and then erase memories of you being the god.

However, demons will be present in every mini-world for sure considering how they emerge in areas of concentrated human psyche.
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>>2723064
I've thought of that but idk if it works that way since it's described as an isolationist reason. If true then it's probably the best one though
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>>2723064
It's really debatable whether you can even create people in Musubi at all. The main shtick of it isn't really being a god with your own playground, the degree of creative power each person has over their own world isn't really elaborated on, it's removing all other individuals so no one can bother you. The whole thing of Musubi is soltude and freedom that comes with it.
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I still don't get what Shijima was trying for. Everyone is a collective hive mind? No emotions so everyone is an autonomous robot? Hippy land of laying around doing nothing all day?
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>>2723150
No "excessive" emotions. It´s neither a collective mind nor pure-Law brainwash. Simply to keep in check emotions that get out of control and thus become harmful to everyone.
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>>2723150
Some kind of an englightened state for everyone, as I recall one of the demons fighting for Shijima says something along the lines "I'm fighting for it because everyone will be equal to God". Everyone is one with the world and each other, everything exists in perfect harmony, passions can no longer lead people to ruin, etc. I guess it would be something like taoism in a way?
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>>2722706
The classic world building question comes to mind: “What do they eat?” If there’s only one living being in this world, that means no plants, no insects, no animals, and so on.
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>>2723515
>Nocturne
>world-building
I wish.
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>>2723186
It's literally the ultimate goal of buddhism dude

you literally quoted the demon who was saying it's buddhism
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>>2723876
I'm really reculant about comparing Shijima with Buddhism and Nirvana because Hikawa himself doesn't really say any particularly buddhist-y things like musing about the nature of the material world, aiming to transcend the Samsara, etc. Hikawa seems weirdly immanentistic if anything. The reason I've brought up taosim at all is because the things he says in his Reason speech about how "it is the world decides what is desirable and undesirable" and "humans should serve as its beacons" sound vaguely like the taoist wu-wei. That doesn't really like Buddhism at all.
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>>2722706
persona better , faggot
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>>2723849
It's more a world-destroying game
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>>2723921
He wears Buddhist prayer beads around his wrist but he's definitely someone who doesn't really understand the Buddha's teachings. If he really wanted a world of silence all he has to do is surgically remove his ability to hear things. Killing everyone on Earth, hell, even just the sacrifices at Yoyogi Park is a violation of the first precept (refrain from killing)
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>>2722706
We can all agree he's a whiny little bitch is what he is.
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>>2724217
Literal end of the world with you veing the last person alive is THE time to whine about shit, don't you think?
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>>2723938
Imagine not liking SMT and Persona. They're basically the same game except you have personas instead of demons, plus social links.
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>>2724999
I mean there's like 4 other people who are also alive.
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>>2722706
No Isamu is decadent and effete. Chiaki is the only aristocratic reason.
>>2722739
>muh heckin' comfort
Woman moment.
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>>2722706
Maybe if you are a hopeless NEET with zero social skills
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>>2725015
What a fucking difference.
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>>2725430
It's exponentially quite significant.
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>>2722706
>Gets put in jail.
>Free him.
>Gets put in jail again.
>Free him.
>Says fuck you and locks himself up.
Isamu is a strange little fucker.
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>>2725009
>except you have personas instead of demons
Personas are literally just inner demons.
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>>2723938
>>2725455
i really dont get how the same series can have the same exact monsters but in one they're evil chaotic beings that come from bad thoughts and in the other they're your happy helpful life partners that come from you facing your inner self and help you save the world
p5 just muddied it even more...
its just kind of weird for everyone to love their personas and be happy go lucky meanwhile I'm summoning satan
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>>2725509
>in one they're evil chaotic beings that come from bad thoughts
Thought you were talking about Persona for this one because that's literally what shadows are.
Demons come from bad thoughts. Shadows are repressed sides of the human psyche, Persona are the other side of those shadows - the face you put on in every day situations.
Both are essentially demons.
>its just kind of weird for everyone to love their personas and be happy go lucky meanwhile I'm summoning satan
It is funny, but Persona is not that different from SMT at all.
P5 didn't muddle anything, in fact it clarified what the intent was in older Persona games. Even Persona 3 - The Answer had Metis straight up tell the party that Personas and Shadows are the exact same entities.

It's not so difficult a departure from mainline to make demons more metaphorical.
Humans invented God. They invented religion to justify and to educate.
From their collective consciousness, in SMT, gods and demons manifested into reality.
In Persona, it's the same thing.
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>>2725516
Fake post
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>>2725517
what does that even mean?
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>>2722706
Meh... Shijima is better, but I'd take Isamu's world over ours any day of the week

Also, to the boredom argument, you could literally just kill yourself and none of the drawbacks would apply
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>>2722706
Fuck no. There are no good ones in the game. The only "good" ending is when you undo everything and return it to normalcy.
The problem with Izamu's is that it's the equivalent of having everyone shooting up heroin all day every day without consequences. Pretty cool if you're down for that but some people will prefer not to. I'd be with him if only those that wanted it were going be in their gay bubble, but forcing it on everybody? Nah, fuck outta here.
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>>2722706
When I played Nocturne all I could think about during Isamu's scenes are how much of a loser he is and lo and behold I go online after I finish the game and the loser NEETs online are like "but he's the good ending!" His Reason is cope for him jobbing throughout the entire game.
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>>2723141
>whether you can even create people in Musubi at all
There already are manikins, the demon made mud doll human simulacra which seemed to be enough of a people on their own, despite the vortex world not supposrting human type meat unit life. Doesn't seem like a much of a stretch that Musubi could support similar creations, especially given that each and every world would be its master's own little sandbox playground.
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>>2727259
Even ignoring that manikins don't come from nothing, being former human souls, the Vortex World isn't literally founded on the idea of isolating people from each other. You being able to create even something like manikins would run contrary to the main idea of being the only person in your own world.
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>>2727278
>only person in your own world
And this here is part of the question. Are you the only sapient being allowed in your own world or do you start as one and only, but being the sole master and creator of your own personal world, you're capable of creating other lifeforms, including generating and distributing souls of enough complexity to allow creating sapient beings ('persons')? It's supposed to be your own very world you create according to your own free will, isn't it?
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>>2727436
As I've already said, the true extent of creative power each person has over their own world is never elaborated upon. I'd imagine it would hardly be omnipotence since even YHVH wasn't really all-powerful.
Morevover, during the Conception the newly created world is molded by Reason and it's guiding ideas. The main idea of Musubi isn't really about everyone being mini-YHVHs, it's about solitude and no people to interfere with your life. If you're actually able to create sapient creatures then the whole Reason is moot, since you end up not actually being alone and your created people can impede you.
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>>2722706
>We can all agree Isamu's Reason is the only one good one right?

A real Musubi chad wouldn't give a shit about what others think, or even post here.
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>>2723158
This.

Toned down emotions is probably the best way to describe it.
You can still get angry with someone, but not so angry that you'd kill them, or even quit your job because of them. You can still love someone, but not so much that you'll drop your life to be with them.

Everyone would have something like an ideal air of professionalism to them, where no matter what, they come back tomorrow, as more or less the same person they were yesterday, and will be tomorrow.

Honestly, either Shijima's Reason or Isamu's are alright. Both have flaws, but are basically functional worlds.
Only the retarded world of strength, that the champion of would (not so much, given the series pattern) ironically be a bottom bitch of it.
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>>2725454
He learned he liked it the first time.
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>>2726361
Nah.
That's the coward's ending. That's literally all it is.
The world will, very soon, go through the same shit again, but you won't be a part of it.

It's not a decision, it's refusing to take responsibility, and washing your hands of the burden placed on you.
It's only better than the nihil ending, because that one is just throwing a tantrum because you didn't get your way, so everyone has to suffer.
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>>2723515
it's not a real question here, the implication is that each person sort of becomes a metaphysical god. metaphysical entities don't need to eat; unless they desire to.

I haven't thought about the reasons in years, but I always felt the True Demon ending added nothing; just more chaos autism when the other Reasons are much more interesting
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>>2724999
Isamu was sort of walking away from the possibility of the demi-fiend restoring the world back to normal, so there was definitely a bit of selfishness in refusing to go back to the way things were.

>>2727767

If I recall, everything just resets but it doesn't imply the same event that began Nocturne was going to begin again. I'm actually surprised they never did a followup to rebirth ending.


>That's the coward's ending

it's the logical ending if you don't want to give the world over to Lucifer or compromise reality/humanity in any of the reasons.
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>>2726361
>The only "good" ending is when you undo everything and return it to normalcy.
"Muh status quo" cuck logic. I bet you think the Neutral route in SJ had the "good" ending too lmao.
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Here's the thing about Musubi, Isamu is full of shit and it's based in the inherent contradictions of wanting a world where everyone is separate yet he's completely dependent on others to obtain his goal. His desire for a world of Musubi is not because he believes in his Reason, but because he wants a world where he can do whatever he wants without consequence. This is demonstrated after his death, in which he proclaims that he simply doesn't care if the Demi-fiend carries on his wishes or not.
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>>2728156
YOU might not think so but developers certanly do. It's an objectively best choise in SJ original and its nu-SJ variant is the most badass. Conclusion based on your logic - SMT is made by cucks. You're a fanboy of a bunch of cucks.
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>>2728233
>YOU might not think so but developers certanly do.
The whole point of RPGs of this nature is that you're suppose to draw your own conclusions, midwit.
>It's an objectively best choise in SJ original
This is partly due to the result of the game subtly manipulating you into believing a soulless AI in charge of the Deleuzian war machine, representative of the neoliberal globohomo technocracy, is a more benevolent force to humanity's ends than either the Smooth (Chaos) or Striated (Law) path respectively. In reality it does little more than kick the can down the road, so to speak.
>and its nu-SJ variant is the most badass.
Babysitting humanity while the status quo remains is badass? Wasn't the original point of the Neutral route to AFFIRM humanity and civilization rather than acting as a tacit admission of its weakness???
>Conclusion based on your logic - SMT is made by cucks.
Yes.
>You're a fanboy of a bunch of cucks.
Not particularly.
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t. Gendo Ikari
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>>2723046
It would be hell for sociopaths.
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>>2728163
Both of the kids are terrible fits for their Reasons, and both would probably be among the most miserable in their world. It's less true of Shijima, but he's also somewhat misunderstood the point of his Reason. I believe that's largely the point. None of the humans really know what they want, none can really make a good decision, they're just going to choose something that sounds good at the time, based on their own skewed and flawed perceptions of reality.

They won't make a good, stable world, and if they're careful and lucky, they'll make a world they personally might be happy in for a while. They'll make another failure, and the cycle will continue again. There are no good choices forwards, but you have to make one nonetheless.
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>>2728156
nocturne rebirth ending is legit the only traditionally good ending. you undo the global genocide and save your friends. aside from devil survivor 1, that's really the only flat-out good ending in any SMT.

SJ ending actually tells you that it was humanity's fate to stagnate, but nocturne quite clearly paints the rebirth as a positive thing.
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>>2723938
I know this is a troll, but actually imagine not wanting both SMT and Persona. Both are great series in this franchise, and I’m tired of pretending they both aren’t just to piss of Persona fags.
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>>2725522
neo-christian psyops attempt probably.
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>>2725516
>Humans invented God.
Imagine being pedantic about Jungian terms then coming to this conclusion. Hylics really are mindless golems.
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>>2723083
>I've thought of that but idk if it works that way since it's described as an isolationist reason.
The fact it's an isolationist reason is precisely why you'd be prone to all kinds of demonic retardation as you stir in your own solipsistic existence. Man isn't an island, nor should reality conform to his desires alone.
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>>2729246
While I would agree, it’s pretty clear that Isamu isn’t really quite human at that point. The whole point of the reasons was to radically change reality outside of the usual law/chaos dichotomy

In a meta way, I find it interesting how YHWH doesn’t really seem to care what happens to Nocturne universe as long as it has nothing to do with Chaos
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>>2722706
Only if you are a cowardly neet.
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No

I got the chick that just sets things back to normal and thought it was best, better than TDE for sure
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>>2723046
Musubi just needs to allow visits to other worlds with the host's permission and it's completely beyond reproach.
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>>2729035
Positive? Bittersweet at best
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>>2728631
There's also just the fact that Reasons in general are kinda shitty and flawed when you think about them for more than 5 seconds.
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>>2729035
>that's really the only flat-out good ending in any SMT.
What about the Bonds ending in 4A?
>but YHVH will come back eventually
Yeah and then he'll just be beaten again. Remember he's only an aspect of the Great Will, he's not the Great Will itself.
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>>2722706
If it had the option to make your own "people" for your world, then I think it would be the best one to pick, no contest. I would love to get NEET comfy with waifus like Pixie and Scathach with huge booba as a daily routine.

Still Isamu's reason was simply him being a useless crybaby that no one would take into account until he finally managed to get on his feet, but thanks to the Amala demons and not his own.
>>2724217
Yes.



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