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This trinity of archetypes is a menace!
How do we get rid of it???
>>
>>2719392
By coming up with something better
Protip: you won't
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turn your abusive childhood into a video game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZj176ZoM4Y
>>
>>2719392
It's too late. The damage is done. Another thing ruined by the normie horde.
>>
That's infinitely better than the concept of DPS, tank, and healer.
>>
>>2720463
I hate dps, tank, healer. Such a low IQ concept.
>>
>>2720463
>>2720494
And yet, you two add less than nothing to the thread. If you had IQs above room temperature you would have had something more interesting to say.
>>
>>2719392
Simple, copy real life. You have intel, field recon, QRF, infantry, air force, armor, navy, etc.

Scouts(recon, intel, support archetype) for spotting things in the map or dungeon, can gather info needed to prepare for a raid, main focus is traversal - they can fly, climb, teleport. Can only fight in short skirmishes. Acts as a support that pings telegraphed attacks in raids and PvP because they're the only ones that can see those.

Bruiser/Warrior/Footman (infantry, melee DPS archetype). Pretty much geared for all combat situations but is completely blind without support, unlocks bonus passives when in large numbers (+morale, unlocks skills like stampede or phalanx).

These are just two examples, each class' spec and skillset varies depending on their faction. The typical brutish faction/Horde bootleg will have more offensive-based scouts where they can assassinate and engage in combat better in exchange for lesser utility.

These are just the stuff I can think of, I think it's a good step away from DnD and RPG tropes.
>>
>>2720627(me)
There's going to be some few changes though where I'll make sure to minimize the feel of being a nameless grunt in an army because the main fantasy in having roles is to feel unique and powerful. Being an expandable unit would suck in a MMORPG.
>>
Introduce dark arts, make combat irrelevant as you channel satan’s fury
>>
>>2720627
Good post, except that real life is not simple and adapting it to a game that's fun to play is always part of the challenge. There are roles that are engaging in real life that aren't in a videogame, or are at least worth IRL doing because you get paid. Janitor is a role IRL but you wouldn't do it for free.

>I think it's a good step away from DnD and RPG tropes.
A little, maybe. But many those roles certainly exist. Wizards often have spells useful for recon and scouting is often a key feature of rogue and ranger classes.

Another thing to consider is that RPGs are rarely military in nature and even more rarely feature large scale military operations. Most RPGs feature small group combat, dungeon crawling, and semi-voluntary "quests" instead of missions. Military-oriented games are far more likely to be strategy or more "pure" tactical simulation games. Large scale operational roles may not map to the small group adventuring roles needed in an RPG.
>>
I don't think it's possible because these are just the three ways people can interact with problems.

>Use your body
>Use your skills
>Use your knowledge

>Fighter
>Rogue
>Mage

>Labor
>Business
>Academia

It's just the fundamental ways we interact with the world extracted into discrete categories and roles. That's why any role you can think of can be described as a variation or combination of these roles.

The only possible extension I can think of would be using faith, being a member of clergy or a monk, and solving problems by relying on divine intervention as a potential archetype that could reasonably be considered distinct from these three.
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>>2720463
B-but how are we supposed to coom if there is no healslut?
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>>2719392
easy stop playing shithouse wrpgs. Many jrpgs have subverted this trope eons ago.

>paper mario
>magic pengel
>medarot
>every monster rpg

I mean holy shit dude. Step out of the WRPG bubble.
>>
>>2720696
Doesn't really make sense when you think about it. Being a rogue or fighter both involve solving problems with a mixture of body, skills and knowledge. Being a mage involves solving problems with superpowers, which might be product of skill or knowledge, however you disguish those, or it might be neither.
>>
>>2720696
When a Fighter stabs a cunt, he's using his BODY to swing the sword, his SKILLS to get proper point alignment and his KNOWLEDGE that stabbing a cunt in the neck is deadlier than stabbing him in the arm
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>>2720804
>Being a mage involves solving problems with superpowers, which might be product of skill or knowledge, however you disguish those, or it might be neither.
Incorrect, the mage uses his body exclusively
>>
>>2719396
It was never good, it's just something people stuck with out of convenience and laziness.

There are million different and better ways to go about it depending on your design goals and game type. But neither players or devs give enough of a fuck to bother doing it better.
>>
>>2720915
>still doesn't say what he'd do instead
everytime
>>
>>2720916
Because you don't understand game dev and I literally told you.
This entirely depends on how the game plays, the number of classes you want, if it's multiplayer or not, etc. etc. etc.

You're clinically retarded if you think there's one very specific solution that's a one-size-fits-all. That's what atrociously bad devs and moronic players think exists.

In real system, combat and gameplay design you have targeted goals, which you clearly know nothing about.

Also conceptually this triangle is fucking retarded, since it takes a simplistic gameplay style, dumbs it down and then splits it into 3 roles. Completely disregarding the end user experience.
>>
>>2719396
How about.. Chad, 30 year old Wizard, and Virgin?
>>
>>2720747
WRPGs have left it behind also.

>BG
Multi- and dual classing allows you to mix and match.
>Witcher
You do not fit any of the three archetypes
>DOS
You can mix and match freely
>TES
You can play with whatever skill combo you want.
>EYE
There is just one archetype and that is to go fast.
>Deus Ex
These archetypes do not even apply in concept.
>>
>>2719392
Either give 3, 5 or 7 choices. Those are the magical numbers.
>>
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>>2719392
Take the Sword & Sorcery pill. Everyone's somewhere between a fighter and a thief. and the magic users get their heads lopped off.
>>2720446
I'm legitimately curious about this one, could you explain a bit more?
>>
>>2720696
https://youtu.be/PYcQxWoUmPY?t=263

a quaternity already exists but it's not forced so usually you are stuck with the trinity

Guild Wars 1 had the Mesmer class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Mesmer) but you didn't need it in your party to play through the first campaign
it looks kinda like a medieval psychic who bypasses armor (body) and magic (mind) with his psychical abilities
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>>2720973
>could you explain a bit more?
what is there ti explain
I just randomly group stuff together
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_all_trades,_master_of_none
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>>2721007
>what is there to explain
Like what are monks in this equation? what's the relevance of the weird alignment chart?
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>>2720747
OP does not play any games at all, that is obvious.
Stop being such a gullible fool.
>>2720925
This post could have been made by a bot it is so generic and lacking in substance.
>>
>>2721096
>This post could have been made by a bot it is so generic and lacking in substance.
He says, as he makes the most generic worthless shitpost ITT.

You're not here to discuss.
>>
>>2720940
Explain nigger
>>
>>2720804
Fighter - strength / endurance
Rogue - speed / charisma
Mage - knowledge / potential for magic

That's how I see it, makes more sense to me that way. All three can use any and all of those skills but the classes excel at the two assigned to them.
>>
>>2721007
You have somehow managed to make even less sense.
Is there no reason but into the images or is it all nonsense trying to appear as if there's substance?
>>
>>2721007
This looks like something some pseudo-intellectual with a fedora would draw up and feel proud of. This is fucking dumb.
>>
>>2721100
>You're not here to discuss.
I saw one non-stupid post worth responding to, this one: >>2720627. So I did, here: >>2720688). No one responded to my sincere attempt to discuss.

Most of the other posts I see ITT are dumb. Yours is just dumb AND full of unwarranted arrogance and hostility. So I singled you out to shit on, because you deserve it. You are an idiot and you make the thread actively worse. It would be better if you fucked off and let the thread die than continue posting.
>>
>>2720627
Eh that still feel like just subcategories of the primary 3 archetype, scout is just rouge while other are just warrior specialization
>>
>>2719392
It requires a big and long game with focus on more than just combat.
>>
>>2721193
No, there's more, but I'm currently under the effect of meds and as such, I cannot fully articulate it at the moment. It's got to do with wargames instead of the DnD shit. Roles in a micro scale such as dungeoneering or party will be different. NPCs will also play important roles in large battles.
>>
>>2720747
id rather be dead
>>
>>2719392
i wish this trope was still common enough to need subverting, i miss classes bros
>>
>>2721176
>every other post that doesn't align with what i already believe is dumb so i'll just shitpost, insult others and claim they're being hostile
Real big brain move there.

You don't even understand the reality of game design and development yet claim you think what is "dumb" or not.

The fact is that the triangle system is inherently flawed (or rather, just straight up bad) and there doesn't exist a single solution since games are all dfferent. Meaning from an actual game dev and system design perspective, you'd first need to have a clear idea for what sort of game you're making, how you want it to play, what experience you wants players to have, etc.
If you can't even understand this, then you're factually not qualified to discuss this topic. Not suprising, since you're a clueless and immature player.

Basically you're saying
>make a good system!
which is such a moronic simple minded topic. A "good" system are relative to goals, not your biased feelings, which is what you're going on.
>>
>>2719392
Fighter/Wizard/Rogue are too generic for us to ever really be rid of them. Humanity has been telling stories about warriors, sorcerers, and tricksters at least as long as we've had writing. In all likelihood the archetypes go back tens or possibly even hundreds of thousands of years.
>>
>>2719392
This is not a "problem" that needs solving. Those are the basic combat archetypes to which all fantasy characters can be narrowed to. It predates even Tolkien/D&D. You had mages, rouges and warriors in all myths and stories all over the world. Even if you design classless system most people will default their character to one of those or some kind of combination of those. Whatever you will try to make, you will still end up with those three or their variations.

Again, this is not an "issue". To be angry at this trinity is as retarded as being angry at there being three basic colors.
>>
>>2720637
>minimize the feel of being a nameless grunt in an army because the main fantasy in having roles is to feel unique and powerful
I dont know about that, great RPGs makes you earn that status.
You can be a nameless grunt in the Battlefeild BUT you can be something more depending on your action, reputation and charisma. After all, thats what promotion and medals are for.
>>
>>2719392
It's a classic and it works. No alternative has been provided neither by OP no anyone else noteworthy. It works. Now go get some work for yourself you massive loser.
>>
>>2721438
>a cart with square wheels dragged by horses works, so why bother with something better like cars
Nice smoothbrain take.

Nothing can be presented as an alterative ITT because you smoothbrains can't provide a more narrow question. How an alternate system might work in a turn-based SRPG, a real-time MMORPG, ARPG, etc. would just that necessitate it work function in very different ways.
Yet even this is something you shit-for-brains can't comprehend.
>>
>>2720747
>No.130:メーハーフ
no way you could get away with this in 2022
>>
>>2721374
>You had mages, rouges and warriors in all myths and stories all over the world.

90% of those mythical figures were fighters and then the remaining 10% would be a mix of mages, rogues, hybrids and characters that don't neatly fit the trinity at all. It's not so much a trinity as "fighters and other".
>>
>>2721549
Fitting into a warrior/mage/rogue archetype is irrelevant anyway. A class can play in a million different ways.

Could technically a character that wears full plate, uses guns, has a magic pet in combat, is a bit more durable and uses various bombs for different effects be called a "warrior"? Yes. But it neither fits people's traditional idea of a "warrior" nor would it play it a generic tank and spank way.
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Like with literally every other RPG convention, blame this guy right here. Fighting Man, Magic-User, and Thief were THE big classes in original D&D.

For these archetypes to be different. you basically have to divest your game of everything inherited from Dungeons in Dragons.
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>>2721357
>The fact is that the triangle system is inherently flawed (or rather, just straight up bad)
There is not a single coherent and workable definition of "the triangle system" in this thread. That you feel justified railing intensely on a topic so vaguely defined is how I know you are stupid. Only stupid people do that. It has nothing to do with my preconceptions and everything to do with yours.
>>
>>2721668
So using your logic there is nothing to disprove or even discuss ITT and your post prior becomes even more inhumanely retarded.
Works for me.
>>
>>2721696
>So using your logic there is nothing to disprove
That is true. When there is no coherent statement in the first place you cannot assess its truth value.

> or even discuss ITT
That is not true. You can add detail and increasing specificity bit by bit, explicitly or implicitly. OP posts some impossibly broad bait subject, you can take off a piece and make a good point that others might respond to. You can bring up examples of specific videogames where the so-called "trinity system" has been used and why it works or doesn't.

Meanwhile, you took OP's vague generalization as 100% literal self-evident fact then shat on this preconception with extreme hostile intensity without bringing up even one example or legitimately debatable point. You did not come to discuss. You came here to act like an obnoxious retard in order to farm worthless Yous while making any actual discussion impossible.
>>
>>2721748
>That is not true
Wrong. You then prove that you're factually just here to shitpost, all the while berating others for the same shit you're doing, further proving your own retardation.
So again, works for me. Plus since I don't interact with retards, I don't need to interact with you further either, especially when you proved your retardation and delusion twice.
Have fun with your shitposting retard.
>>
>>2720463
>>2720494
I fucking love when braindead Tank, Healer, DPSfags play a game not catered to their retardation, and the big guy with armor and zero offensive presence just gets ignored.

"But, like, how do I taunt?"
>>
>>2721444
I'm not seeing any alternatives from you in this entire thread, which means nobody genuinely cares what you have to say. Provide a better alternative, then there could be a discussion.
>>
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>>2721860
>keep telling others to do what he doesn't do
>all the while patting himself on the back
you tell em, monkey
>>
The burden of said alternative is on you not me or anyone else in this thread, since you've made the claim that what's established isn't acceptable. Provide a better alternative, then there could be a discussion.
>>
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>He thinks it's a trinity
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>>2721162
>You have somehow managed to make even less sense
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjVOXf8oaRY
I was remembering this scene from this anime where some highschool boys play pretend
the person who introduces himself as Jack takes on several roles over the course of the game and confuses people
if the guy introduced himself as Jack and didn't take on several roles over the course of the game then he wouldn't be roleplaying properly
it's not a coincidence because it's a reference, he becomes the Jack Of All Trades

https://www.bilibili.tv/en/video/2041241184
https://www.bilibili.tv/en/video/2046108531

I made it in like 10 minutes while I had the thread open and used some dudes pyramid as a template from a video I seen like 10 times already
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QuKpJTUwwY&t=32s
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>>2721170
>This looks like something some pseudo-intellectual with a fedora would draw up and feel proud of. This is fucking dumb.
it's just a harmless colored pyramid with words in it, why are you seething so much
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>>2721013
>what's the relevance of the weird alignment chart?
it's just Baldurs Gate or rather that meme chart shit that gets posted around because ingame the chart looks different
I didn't know what to call the thing in the middle so I just called it origin
>>
Apply your graph in practice, until then it is entirely meaningless to anything besides self-amusement, if you can call it such.
>>
>>2721778
You are weird.
>>
>>2721975
is this just some time-cube shit?
>>
>>2720747
>swap a stagnant culture for an outright degenerate one
LOL no.
>>
>>2721662
>you basically have to divest your game of everything inherited from Dungeons in Dragons
And it can't come soon enough.
Levelling should go into the same dumpster as character classes.
>>
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>>2720696
>I don't think it's possible because these are just the three ways people can interact with problems.
how about forming some random problem and then crossing out the categories you already have to then try and solve the problem and create a new category this way
the problem is since you created so broad and vague stuff like body it's going to be hard to cross it out and not become something like a ghost or some psychic that uses telekinesis to interact with the problem
I did it once and I ended up as an alienist on a foreign planet, it was fucking retarded but I'm gonna post it anyway since you created these categorizes, to prove that they suck ass

>imagine you are in an alien world and everything you do based on your knowledge and skills produces unpredictable and illogical outcomes
>and every time your body interacts with something you get an electric shock out of nowhere
>would you rather seek out more illogical outcomes and shocks or would you try to create a new category based on the problem?

>I can't use my body
>I can't use my skills
>I can't use my knowledge
>this world is alien to me
>I'm an alienist

>I study the unknown, I don't care about outcomes or shocks and I do not seek them, I seek the unknown
>if I use my knowledge to produce illogical outcomes then I don't study and don't seek the unknown but avoid it and produce nothing but knowledge which can not help me since it is the known
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97dwYLnbW4E

I guess in the end that just means if you want more categories you need to start with smaller and detailed stuff instead of being broad and vague
it makes a difference if it's top down or if it's bottom up
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>>2722184
i think you might like this game called Doom. it's basically a dungeon crawler without character classes or experience levels.
>>
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>>2721374
I think they are socialists like the Guild Wars 2 devs
they want everyone to be same and then zerg around the map
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>>2722216
Forgot to add "dungeon crawling" ...
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>>2719392
>How do we get rid of it???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DT7bX-B1Mg
>>
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>>2721007

made me laugh hard anon. i even showed my friend and he laughed too.
>>
forgot to post the template
https://i.postimg.cc/PTSFBZ1D/ada.png
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Classes_(Oblivion)
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here is your custom class bro
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>>2722735
the faggots you sit with in your trannoid discord server ain't your friends
>>
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https://youtu.be/ZLRELx46NP4?t=158
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>>2722757
A living armor/automaton that dual-wields two-handed swords

>>2722761
The dual-faced scholar, specializing in seamlessly wielding two schools of vastly different sorceries

>>2722772
and the... whatever the fuck these are
>>
>>2720627
Chromehounds online was like this
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>>2722892
I want to copy the comms tower mechanic from that game and then ban third-party comms software. I think that would be really cool in a MMO.
>>
>>2722180
stop acting white.
>>
>>2721860
Very nearly anything is an important on dps healer tank. Even something as basic as dps only is an improvement on having 2/3 roles dedicated to not letting anything happen.
>>
>>2722180
>swap a stagnant culture for an outright degenerate one
Other way around is more accurate
>>
>>2721748
Very eloquent takedown of an obnoxious retard.
>>
>>2719392
To answer this question I must first ask: what the problem with having a ground work of warrior/magic/stealth?
Can't just say somethings bad with no reasoning you know.
>>
>>2724099
The problem is video games. Because:

Warrior=Melee dmg
Rogue=Melee dmg but fast, with "dodges" instead of "blocks"
Mage=Ranged dmg with explosion graphic
Archer=Ranged dmg with arrow graphic

Just cosmetic. The heal/dmg/tank trinity is better if that's all you're gonna do. To make it better?

Say rogue isn't a ninja warrior, but a sneaky faggot who can jump around until you slap him, made to be played by annoying weasels who love to troll and tease.
>You integrate platforming, physical dodging, deep thievery and law mechanics, actual sneaking with camouflage/sewers/climbing(not just *poof* ur invisible til u backstab lol), etc.
Warriors are strong, but do you feel strong when everyone is? Is it just the chainmail dressup club. You can make them the combat experts, but then there has to be a world of things they cannot do
>You develop content outside of combat that often leaves the warrior out of his depth, so you can safely make him the undisputed tough guy. You force him to pick from his neighbors' skill trees if he wants any sort of quality of life — at the expense of his fighting prowess. Player either has to suffer or have friends if they wish to be pure warriors, the rest become hybrid/niche fighters like druids/paladins/monks/.
Since mages are fantasy nerds, you can give them scholarly attributes and pursuits
>You make more content than various elemental balls. Puzzles, languages, interesting utility like teleportation in a world that doesn't have fast travel. Weird, funny spells to collect. Puzzles that integrated teleportation, levitation, weird physics. Other nerd shit.

The trinity is perfect, always has been. The limitation is content.
>>
>>2720454
That sounds like typical woman/tranny bs
>>
>>2724095
Except he did nothing of the sort since he made deranged assumptions and talked about something completely different than what was being discussed.
I see you're just as deranged as him.

He berated people for not doing X, which he failed to do himself. A deranged hypocrite like that should not be interacted with. That was my only mistake.

But to make matters worse, he doesn't understand how game or system design works yet decided he should keep yapping. But ignorant idiots always talk about things they know nothing about, since they don't know any better.
>>
>>2722173
is this just some time-cube shit?
seems like someone has been living under a rock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes
>that purport to show how each day is really four separate days
>>
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>>2724507
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>>2722835
the third one is obviously a loan shark.
>>
High IQ thread.
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>>2720936
>WRPGs have left it behind also.
Yeah, but only based on that retard's understanding of what archetype means.
It's extremely rare for any RPG to literally have ONLY THREE builds. Even original D&D was fighter/mage/cleric. Greyhawk included thief and paladin.

>Baldur's Gate (aka AD&D 2e)
Builds all fall under the big 3 umbrella, unless you want to count clerics as a distinct archetype from mages.
>Witcher
Geralt is just a superman with multiple archetypes combined in one.
>TES
This is the only fantasy RPG on this list that actually counts as a valid counter-example, as you can progress and have a satisfying experience being primarily a merchant or craftsman(smith, alchemist). You still require some kind of combat/adventuring skills from the big three in order to prevail in dungeons and complete the main quest, though. Applying poison you obtained via trade to an expensive sword you crafted yourself still requires you to act as a warrior (or rogue) to use it in combat. Using potions to boost your stealth or lockpicking skills is rogue activity.
>Deus Ex
...is a modern non-fantasy game with an FPS foundation, so "warrior" means guns and there are no supernatural powers. Instead you have tech, bombs, medicine etc. And rogue is pretty much intact with standard shit like stealth and lockpicking.

The mage archetype is obviously unique to the fantasy genre. If you take magic off the table casters disappear, increasing the relevance of talents and technology to fill the gaps. Warrior and rogue archetypes often remain intact with minimal changes from their fantasy equivalents apart from weaponry details. Meanwhile you'll find that increasing the prominence of non-combat, non-adventuring archetypes (like "talker" or "merchant" or "logistics specialist") as viable alternatives to the traditional builds, quickly leads you into other genres or at least niche RPG subgenres (CYOA-heavy story games or simulation sandboxes).
>>
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>>2724293
You are the one making stupid assumptions, dumbass, namely about what it even means to have a trinity of archetypes. And when challenged to provide something, anything of substance all, your responses have been nothing but aggression and lame excuses.

The primary RPG archetypes exist because they simultaneously align with key adventuring roles in a fantasy setting as well as innate roleplay desires-- to be a skilled martial artist, to harness powerful supernatural forces, or to outwit opponents with stealth, subtlety, and dexterity. Those are all traits in high demand among groups bravely delving into the depths of cursed catacombs and dragon lairs. Other archetypes exist, but often aren't a good fit for adventuring or else they aren't sufficiently broad to count as a standalone archetype. Farmers and merchants eschew adventure. Rulers and diplomats may just be older, retired adventurers. Games focusing on rulers are more likely to be grand strategy or 4X games. Engineering and tradeskills are often build options accessible by any of the main archetypes. If you aren't in a fantasy setting you'll probably have some kind of tech and weapons specialists (as well as medics) to replace the caster archetype.

Either way, pushing beyond 3 or 4 top-level adventuring archetypes is very challenging. A flying valkyrie is still a fighter. A bow specialist is still a fighter. Rangers and paladins are fighters. Illusionists, conjurers, druids, clerics, psionicists-- they are all casters. It's possible, but you have to understand everything I just said and I guarantee you don't.

>inb4 assuming RPGs are about adventure
If you're making VN about cuckoldry, you won't use these adventuring archetypes. You'll have a very different trinity. But if that's the case, why didn't you just say so in the first place? It's because you don't actually have any ideas. Your brain is empty and you have nothing to offer.
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>>2719392
the artist who made these should get a raise
what bothers me is that it's not clear what OP wants or is even talking about

>This trinity of archetypes is a menace!
>How do we get rid of it???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JqKRqOmzi0
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>>2721176
You clearly haven't been shoved into lockers frequently enough.
>>
The issue is that magic exists and is just too versatile.
Magic should mostly be supportive (like crowd control, auras, healing, chants) and only minimally offensive like a nerfed Fireball.
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>>2724952
I can tell from your passive-aggression that you've the soul of a loser. You come to 4chan to bully people because you're full of resentment, but you can't hack it on /v/ so you stick to a safe low-traffic board like /vrpg/.
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>>2724972
To expand, I'm not heavy into the "philosophy" of DnD and similar settings but spellcasters seem to be some sort of joker to easily expand on what can be encountered.
Like there are spells of Telekinesis, all types of armor, increasing/decreasing saving throws and stats, damage, summoning, opening locks, detecting traps, making enemies slower and allies faster, etc
It's a design necessity to expand mechanics but at the same time it also makes casters way too powerful because of their specialized versatility.
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>>2725000
The main issue isn't that wizards are too versatile or fighters are too weak, it's the enduring delusion that fighters need to be realistic while wizards don't. If you let go of this harmful delusion, the solution becomes obvious. Just look at the kind of insane bullshit that mythological "fighters" get up to. If you base your fighters on figures like Cu Chulainn or Herakles instead of "uhhh I'm just a guy with a sword so I hit the giant's toe once and end my turn" the gap between casters and martials disappears without having to reduce the power or versatility of wizards. But we can't have that because the retards designing (and playing) D&D are like "b-but that's muh realizm my fighter should just be a regular human being with no power!" It's okay to make a "realistic" game, but you can't have a realistic game while also letting people play wizards who fly around shooting lightning out their ass.
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>>2725012
I agree, either make a low-magic game where Fighters are reasonably realistic and casters are a support class or keep the latter as they are while the former become some flying wushu Achilles or Sigurd
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>>2724890
>TES a valid counter-example
This is the most interesting example to me.

TES heavily incentivizes a "bardish" archetype. A little magic, a little stealth, a little melee, a little ranged. None of the game mechanics are deep enough to stand alone, but you can have fun as a jack-of-all-trades. The guild quests also support this. Bows are the most satisfying by far, so playing a non-bow user is a mistake. But sniping everything is boring, so you mix for variation. Samurai, Nightblade, Spellbow, Ninja, etc. are the best archetypes.

So what happens? Interestingly, players try to conform to the trinity anyway. In a game where you can level everything, where the sneaky bowmage who sometimes stabs is king, players restrict themselves for the sake of roleplay.
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>>2725069
>Interestingly, players try to conform to the trinity anyway.
That's not what I have seen. My impression that most people do a little bit of everything while having one focus.

And the reason for that isn't to conform to an archetype for the sake of roleplay or conformism (although that happens). The main reason is that being too much of a generalist is exhausting. If you have to find the perfect tool for every job, then half your time is going to be spent rooting around in your toolbox. If you try to do everything in Skyrim, you're quickly going to be overwhelmed with an inventory full of alchemy ingredients and potions, smithing shit, soulgems, surprisingly heavy scrolls, and a whole arsenal of weapons, clothes and armor. You'll have a gazillion options every single battle and yet only two hands to for doing anything. Most battles aren't that hard anyway. You'll gravitate toward least amount of hassle and whatever style makes the most sense to you, and your skill progression will wind up supplementing this play style.
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>>2725012
I kind of wonder if the rogue archetype hurts as well, since they're the "fast" guys. So fighters tend to be stuck as the slow, bulky guys in a lot of games to not step on any toes, even though you'd think being fast would benefit your combat ability.
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>>2725012
I agree with this anon. You can make fighters develop into mythological supermen without making them "magic". In fantasy worlds, physical limits are less restrictive than they are in ours.
I would like to see "superhuman abilities" added to mid-/higher-level fighters.
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>>2725069
>TES heavily incentivizes a "bardish" archetype. A little magic, a little stealth, a little melee, a little ranged.
The only reason why TES games incentivize a Jack Of All Trades type character is because they're singleplayer games with no restrictions to character development. In a game where you only have one character that doesn't limit the development of that character in any way, becoming good at everything is the only viable long-term goal (outside of roleplaying decisions, which are essentially just self-imposed limitations). If you only had a limited amount of total XP to gain or a limited amount of points to distribute among your skills during the course of the game, people would automatically gravitate towards more specialized builds just to make sure they end up being really good at one or two things instead of just sort of okay at everything. But in absence of such limitations not only does diversifying grant you versatility without costing you anything in raw power, it also lets you switch playstyles at a whim without having to make a new character for it. There's no reason not to diversify because the game never gives you one.

>Interestingly, players try to conform to the trinity anyway.
I'd like to see what kind of argument you have to back up this idea, because I don't think it's true at all. There are maybe dozens of different playstyle variation in TES games they're all just different types of DPS. Sure one player might make a more tanky DPS and another might make a stealthy DPS, and most players are going to make use of at least some type of self-healing, none of that has anything to do with the RPG trinity. TES games do literally nothing to encourage playing an actual tank or a healer simply because those roles have no function in a singleplayer game where you only play one character.
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>>2724065
It's not an act, Mutt.
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>>2725069
You've only played Skyrim, haven't you?
This does not make you an expert on TES in general.
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>>2725216
Trinity in this thread means fighter/wizard/rogue, not tank/healer/dps
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>>2725095
>if the rogue archetype hurts as well, since they're the "fast" guys
It's not universal, but it definitely can hurt. The bigger problem is the implementation of the archetype in a lot of video game rpgs as just an assassin that can also pick locks. Sure, you can build a rogue that way, but it pigeon-holes it just like a lot of vidya fighter interpretations do. For example; Rogues can actually be goat support units, they can distract enemies, set traps to protect party members who fight at range, or back up the front line with poison/abilities that bog the enemy down or disorient them.

Still, Rogues are at their most unique when not actually in battle; they're the ones who can bluff/sneak into the castle the easiest, the ones who can pick up leads on quests/treasure in ways other archetypes can't (at least not as efficiently,) and can be inconspicuous enough to scout things out before a fight. This is obviously a problem in video games where even in rpgs the combat is often a big focus.

>tl;dr
OP is a faggot, but so are game devs for not experimenting enough.
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>>2725349
Scouting can be fun in a party based game but requires good dungeon and encounter design, as well as fair but useful stealth mechanics.
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>>2725236
nta but even in Morrowind/Oblivion, training different skills for different stat gains is good for a more well-rounded character.
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>>2725012
If people want to play that way then ultimately fighters max out as low level characters and at that point as they reach higher level those characters would be taking some kind of level in supernatural powers.

I've also done a game for a setting where supernatural powers were notably stronger and mages were pretty much on top. To facilitate game balance and offer up more character types to the players I also allowed mages who had magically enhanced fighting ability to play like supernatural warriors and for other similar kinds of characters to be unusual exceptions to the rule.
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>>2725012
>The main issue isn't that wizards are too versatile or fighters are too weak, it's the enduring delusion that fighters need to be realistic while wizards don't.
Nah this is a dumb straw man. There's no enduring delusion of the sort. Look no further than World of Warcraft or literally any fucking JRPG to see all kinds of supernatural martial artistry.

More importantly, you've forgotten the most obvious fucking things that fighters always have in a fantasy world where they need to fight wizards, which are MAGICAL ITEMS. Flaming swords, enchanted lances, mythical unbreakable armor, potions to grant superhuman strength or endurance, jewelry to ward off evil spirits, boots of levitation and capes of flight, weapons that return to your hand automatically when thrown, the list goes on and on and on.
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>>2725876
If a fighter is relying on magic gear then where is his own actual strength? Strip him of his enchanted codpiece and he is as vulnerable as a newborn baby.
If he's decked out, head-to-toe, in wizard-enchanted gear, then he's pretty much just a force animating the wizard's magic armour.
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>>2726334
>If a fighter is relying on magic gear then where is his own actual strength?
Have you never read a single hero story in your entire life? The hero still requires talent, training and experience to use magical aid. The hero is still the one who possesses the bravery and virtue required to walk among the dead and call upon their aid. The hero takes the gun with untraceable tape and avenges his father. The hero puts on the infinity gauntlet and snaps his fingers to save the world, though it will end his life.
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>>2719392
By not having classes.
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>>2725443
Before I stopped GMing in 3.5, I was working on a system that would give characters a "magic bullshit" point every time they level up, as rewards for acquiring relics or pulling off rituals. Spellcasters would spend theirs on increasing their levels in spellcasting classes. But they could also be spent on getting templates, spell-like abilities, grafts, upgrades to magic items, and so on. I had no expectation that it would balance easily, but the intent was to bump up the martials every so often to flatten out the difference as much as possible, for as long as possible.
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Alright, i’ll have a crack at this one. First, a diffierent idea of trinity;
1) Enabler - can use heals, buffs or anything that helps the party.
2) Disabler - can use debuffs, stuns or anything to disrupt the enemy.
3) Fighter - anyone who’s going into the fray and actually fighting head to head (despite the name an archer or assassin can fit into this category).
4) Then of course you can hybrid the three above attributes any way you want to if you want more of a spectrum rather than a defined class. For instance, a rogue might be a fighter/disabler if he uses smoke bombs, tranquillisers, nets etc as well as fighting head on. A pally is a classic example of an enabler/fighter.
Alchemist could be a class that works as a enabler/disabler combo, being able to heal, buff and debuff all at once.
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A 4 class system of Warrior, Rogue, Wizard, and Merchant/Bard (or some other charisma archetype) would be better than the trinity. The charisma character acts more as a leader or manipulator, avoiding combat or making others fight for him. It would add a new dimension to the combat-stealth-magic archetypes and emasculate STRtards because "Chad" literally starts with CHA.
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>>2720446
Not true. A bard is a music wizard and a monk is a rogue/wizard.
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>>2725095
>I kind of wonder if the rogue archetype hurts as well, since they're the "fast" guys. So fighters tend to be stuck as the slow, bulky guys in a lot of games to not step on any toes, even though you'd think being fast would benefit your combat ability.
If you want to go the mythological route then rogues should be tricksters who deceive and outsmart their enemies, but that's harder to model in a video game compared to Herakles being able to crush the monster into chunky soup in one hit.
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>>2719392
>This trinity of archetypes is a menace!
You am play gods!
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>>2726837
Merchant is Rogue.
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>>2726837
I kind of feel this, but how do you make it relevant in combat in a game like say baldur’s gate or elder scrolls? If it becomes just a get out of jail free card it’s lame.
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>>2725012
in Icewind Dale my dwarf tanked an entire room of ice monsters and then the Wizard did a few flame AoE spells to kill everything
anybody that played these games knows what the problem is

>>2720936
>WRPGs have left it behind also.
>BG
>Multi- and dual classing allows you to mix and match.
I don't think that counts since as far as I remember in Dual Class you leave your old class behind and multiclass is just being a bard
I guess dual classing would be a rogue type, a shapeshifter
there is no yellow type or whatever you wanna call that

>>2721013
>what are monks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otf9Bnm48Kk

isn't that kinda very obvious
https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Monk_(Hellfire)

I just added it randomly from the oblivion classes picture because it stuck out
the person fights with his hands unlike the other 3
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>>2724916
>one huge irrelevant shitpost that had nothing to do with the post prior
Bravo.

>when challenged to provide something
Already explained this to him (you) back then. But you're obviously illiterate or thick, so it didn't sink in.
Not only is it irrelevant, but shitting out a ton of random """good""" systems without any actual context is something anyone can do and is utterly pointless.

What you utterly fail to comprehend is even the 101 basics of system game design.
The systems achieves certain established goals. Those goals do not include nebulous trite like "good" or doing something just to be different.

>pushing beyond 3 or 4 top-level adventuring archetypes is very challenging
It's piss easy and done daily. But you're a clueless player, not a system game designer, so of course this is a challenge. Especially when you're also illiterate.

Point is you're a deranged, illiterate clueless idiot that doesn't understand system design.
I could in theory spend several posts to break it down and try to educate you, but why bother. Even if forcefully educated, you won't contribute any relevant value to me or anyone else.
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>>2726515
I like the idea of magically enchanted gear being very dangerous to wear, and only a strong warrior being capable.
An interesting setting could be one where wizards can enchant items, but can't use them due to the intense strain they put in the body. Only great strength, fortitude and a mighty constitution is capable of withstanding the almost toxic magical aura from enchanted gear. The magic would flow through the wearer, but in a different way to spells. Gauntlets of Ogre Strength would require a minimum level of strength and training, otherwise you'll tear your own tendons and rip your own bones out of their sockets.
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>>2719392
>This trinity of archetypes is a menace!
Why?
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>>2727285
>An interesting setting could be one where wizards can enchant items, but can't use them due to the intense strain they put in the body.
This is commonly implicit in class-based systems. Typically, wizards are simply not allowed to wield any kind of sword no matter whether it is enchanted or not. This is often on top of the already poor combat skills. A wizard can wield a magical dagger badly, as a last resort or as part of some clever well-coordinated plan. Or they can throw darts from the sidelines if they have nothing better to do-- or maybe they can use up some of their limited spell power to temporarily transform into a melee-capable character (maybe they conjure a special phantom sword or shapeshift into a bear). Meanwhile the Fighter just picks up Hrunting, which is always by his side, and charges into battle with his wizard supporting from behind.

The main gripe mostly comes from melee players bored with melee. The answer is to make melee more interesting.
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>>2727324
Obviously because OP is a faggot.
>>2727225
Rangers in D&D are essentially fighters. And monks are typically just another fighting man subtype with less reliance on equipment.
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>>2727324
Anyone can list tons of reasons, if you just gave a shit
>lazy, bland and generic
>it's dumbed down
>it pigeonholes mechanics, roles and classes
>homogenization and regression
>tends to result in bad gameplay because the structure is flawed
>doesn't work well the second you break away from anything similar to d&d
>etc
Yes even you could see the problems if you just looked at it.
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>>2727762
Explain how it does any one of those things.
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>>2727762
The problem anon, is that those archetypes are the way they are because it's the easiest to put together a game where you play as a hero doing heroic things. There are a myriad ways you can set up mechanics for the player to customize their characters, but invariably they will gravitate towards playstyles that are more or less descriptive of those roles. I agree that something so restrictive as those exact playstyles are boring, but I don't think it's necessarily lack of imagination that they are the biggest archetypes: It's just the labels we use to describe someone that produces a lot of damage with pure force, one that sneaks around quickly, and one that uses some kind of ethereal force to attack.
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>>2727803
>overexplain obvious things so you can shitpost some more
Uh huh.

>>2727826
There are 3 actual reasons devs can do it
>1. Uninspired / They're hacks
>2. They like it
>3. They prioritize what most people know to make it easier to understand
None of them are great reasons.
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>>2727831
Can you give an example of a game you could think of in which these archetypes wouldn't exist? It doesn't need to be in-depth, just an explanation of how you would subvert these archetypes while still being an enjoyable experience for the player.
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>>2719392
The only pragmatic part of this entire thread and any post that follow up is that none of these supposedly superior graphs or mindless rants of "criticism" will ever make it into a game. Scrolling through them it's not just because they are beyond trash as a concept(ugly, backwards, unimaginative and derivative) but also because neither OP nor anyone ITT will ever have both the conviction or willpower to ever implement it anywhere else beyond a shit post. Therefore I really do not see much of a point of this thread and anyone posting as anything other than engaging in low level entertainment, if you can even call it entertaining to begin with.
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>>2727831
You are the only one shitposting.
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>>2727859
Totally worthless post.
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>>2727877
Like this thread. Like these graphs... and your lives.
>>
Consider the following:
Combat medics. It's not completely unrealistic to assume someone good at repairing the body would also be good at dismantling it.
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>>2727913
Projection
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>>2727913
>>2727859
You sound jaded and depressed. May I recommend jerking off and having a nap
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>>2719392
The trinity exists because it's perfect. Each pillar of rpgs is represented.
>Combat: Fighter
>Spellcasting: Mage
>Utility Skills: Thief

>>2720446
Monk doesn't add anything, bard is just a mix of Fighter/Mage/Thief
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>>2720494
Trinity is perfectly fine, the issue is that nobody is willing to experiment with it, and experimentation comes too slowly.
>No Tank that's squishy as fuck but uses CC to kite or stun mobs along with shields to give them a backup plan
>No Healer that intentionally takes damage to proc big heals
>No DPS that has ranged spells with heavy mp costs, and close ranged attacks that restore mp based on damage dealt, giving a playstyle where you try to weave in and out of combat and carefully watch your resources.
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>>2727916
Congrats.
You just described a Cleric.
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>>2727916
Warrior + Mage, Warrior + Healing items, or Warrior + Healing ability. Still fits the major three, just a hybrid or one with a special.
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>>2728002
Isn't Cleric also specialize in buff and debuff?
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>>2728175
If we're talking DnD Clerics specifically they kind of just have a grab bag of things that could justifiably be called "holy/unholy magic". So buffs, debuffs, a few direct damage spells (mostly fire/holy/unholy), summoning, healing and restoration spells, and some other flavorful things. They're about as flexible as Wizards regarding casting, just with the added benefit of having access to armor and weapons.
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>>2727762
You can give reasons, but it doesn't mean they're good or even explain anything

>It's dumbed down
It's dumbed down because almost anyone class or character can be reduced to one of these solely because of specialization that occurs in party based combat. Any melee strong melee class would be warrior, even stuff like paladins who have more to them. Every magic based class is wizard, even healers. And any fast character/trickster/scout/trapster is a rogue. The exceptions would be classes that do several things like that Skyrim mc apparently or spellblade types of classes.

You didn't even say which part is dumbed down. The classes themselves? The implementation of them in each game?
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>Might, Magic, Skill
In a sci-fi game, does tech replace Magic or fall under Skill.
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I like the trinity. It's three heroes each powerful in their own strengths relative to their culture, and I feel it should be the basis of new classes.
Standard trifecta
>Fighter
>Wizard
>Thief
Nature trifecta
>Barbarian
>Druid
>Ranger
Divine trifecta
>Paladin
>Cleric
>Inquisitor
I propose every culture should have an archetype that fills the roles of Warrior, Magician, and Rogue. They needn't be too different from one another, but this adds a flair and spice to the world that makes it feel well developed and that one can belong in the world.
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>>2728263
>Inquisitor
Should it be Monk?
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>>2728263
>Bard
>Sorcerer
>Warlock
What do you call for these leftover trinfecta?
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>>2728263
That's a neat feature of the game in Log Horizon. Every server has at least one unique class that replaces one of the original ones.
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>>2728284
Those fall outside of the trifecta scheme because they're not Warrior, Magician, Rogue. Or rather, they're part of incomplete trifectas. I would place Warlock into a sinner's trifecta along with Dark Knights and Black Magicians. Sorcerer is weird because it doesn't have a culture surround it. You were just born with power. It's in your blood. Maybe you could get some ancestral power going on, but the other options I've brought up to complete these groups of three are archetypes I'm kinda pulling from a hat.

I just think that, while it is kinda samey in theme, the fact that a theme is prevalent throughout a setting gives the idea a solid foundation. Compare Talos to Almsivi. Wulfharth, Zurin Arctus, and Tiber Septim, are a complete trifecta for mankind as Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and Vivec were for the mer of Morrowind.
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>>2728272
I don't think so.

Monks are basically fighters that use their fists instead of weapons and armor, usually enhanced by an internal magic-esque force, and dedicated to achieving enlightenment through physical perfection..

When it comes to sneaky church person, an Inquisitor comes to mind, when you focus on them as agents of the church, investigating the potential sources of evil and corruption.
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>>2727987
>>2727930
Give value other than some failed graphs and meanignless diatribes in your lives.
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>>2728306
I wouldn't call Ki itself magical. It's a sort of representation of spirit and focus innate in all human beings but refined to usable state in the essence of a Monk. Monks do not cast spells, wizards do not gain Ki, and I feel that wizards draw upon the ability to use their mind to change how the world works, while monks use their mind to change how their selves work. Innately, many classes dot his, even purely martial classes like Barbarian who are viewed often as anti-magic. I feel it is through a wealth of an innate power intrinsic to mortal souls that people find the strength to be player characters, and it is very distinct from arcane power. I really, *really* hate to bring this up but FFXIV Endwalker did a great job at articulating the distinction between magical power and a mortal but still fantastical power.
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>>2728355
Yeah, that's why I only called it magic-esque, I know that Ki is not actually magic, but I do indeed consider its concept to be something supernatural from out point of view.
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>>2728244
>You can give reasons, but it doesn't mean they're good or even explain anything
And I or someone else can elaborate on them and you will ignore it. That's how it goes with people like you. As you just demonstrated.
It's a pointless discussion anyway, as is making you see reason.
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>>2728377
I'm open to discussion, but first you have to point out how it is bad exactly.

In a party with some sort of skill tree system, you'll inevitably go towards specialization for each character, cause that's most efficient play.
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>>2728381
Ignore that guy there is something wrong with him.
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>>2728284
The charisma caster trifecta? The "my supernatural daddy gives me my powers" trifecta, where sorcerer is a literal daddy, warlock is a "daddy" and bard isn't actually a daddy but just the primordial song?
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>>2728381
If you can give me a good reason why it'd be worth my time and effort to extensively elaborate.
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>>2727859
>superior graphs
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>>2719392
Would you prefer the 6 archetypes found in FFXIII?
Martials that disrupt the opponent, casters that mainly do damage, tanks that take a brunt of the damage, healers to keep the tank from dying, and dedicated buffers and debuffers?
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>>2728560
Lmao who do you think you are? Get over yourself retard, you haven't done shit to deserve respect or for your time to be worth anything but the feces on shit I am dumping right now. That other anon is extremely civil with you now either show some respect back and start talking about what he asked or shut the fuck up literal parasite. You're nothing but a worm come back when you have value.
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>>2727992
>monk is useless says local man
look what you have done
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>>2728917
Yeah but what did he actually achieve. What actually changed. Nothing.
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>>2724972
Offensive spellcasters are fine if their class specialization is sufficiently isolated from utility spellcasters and they have a different use case than archers.

>>2725432
Oblivion incentivizes you to avoid levelling up(it makes the fights more tedious) and to finish all the quests before Radiant AI kills anybody important, which incentivizes you to have a solid build at the start of your run. Or to move into enchantments that make you invulnerable and ignore all enemies,
And the Sneak/Marksman skills in Morrowind aren't really functional so you'll probably end up using Illusion magic while casting from scrolls/rings/amulets for your ranged damage. You'll get enough Agility from grinding Light Armor and Block anyway.

>>2728909
Add a 7th archetype centered around spawning fragile minions to play off buffs/debuffs and managing AoE.
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>>2728917
That's some pretty fucking deep meditation right there.
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>>2721975
you know did anyone notice there is a disgaea reference in that anime, that mid boss thing
I randomly clicked on a disgaea video with flonne walking down the floor after I watched that mid boss thing
and you know did anyone notice the following

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBasHPTQbGE
https://youtu.be/wIRcD9wJ2m8?t=71
https://youtu.be/wIRcD9wJ2m8?t=109
https://youtu.be/wIRcD9wJ2m8?t=409
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb0WJ-JQJYI
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ass%20assassin
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>>2720463
>>2720494
It's a historical thing coming from a lineage separated from crpgs that had to give up a lot of the detail and nuance to make MUDs feasible. Even today an MMO implements a lot of tricks to cut down on computation and AI. It's similar to how a lot of JRPG stuff also originated from a technical need to dumb it down so it could fit for consoles with limited memory. For some reason this shit always survives long after everyone has forgotten why it was used in the first place. Like turn-based combat for table top games originating from the complexity of resolving multiple concurrent actions, which isn't an issue for a CPU that can resolve many thousands of actions in a second.
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>>2719392
>This trinity is a menace!
>How do we get rid of it???
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>>2730517
>>2730539
>>2730542
>>2730546
lol this schizo shit is complete nonsense
nobody but you and maybe a select dozen of autismos(in a bad way) are going to play this besides just to be a contrarian
lets see you make a game with this "system" it genuinely has to be a shitpost because I refuse to believe anyone can be this unimaginative and stupid
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>>2730513
There's still an important distinction between thinking and deciding what characters should do, and actually doing it. Most of your post is good but if you are suggesting action gameplay supercedes thoughtful gameplay that is a very low iq take.
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>>2727992
>combat: Thief injects potion seller tonics to win fights
>Spellcasting: Fighter casts spells by pummelling spirits responsible for physics
>Utility Skills: Mage sells coin that duplicates every time it's exchanged

Shooter, sneaker, talker are the true pillars of RPGs.
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>>2730674
This implies turn based RPG combat is inherently thoughtful and that action combat isn't, when neither of those are true
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>>2730652
Actually believing those posts weren't shitposts...
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>>2722735
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>>2722735
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>>2730674
Gameplay with actions is dumber than game play with thoughts.
Anon is literally implying rpgs with more of both can be made now.

In terms of game-mechanics rpgs have been stagnating for more than 20yrs because corporate needs to sell bullshot graphics and shark cards to the person least likely to play a game.
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>>2730652
>imagine yourself being a puppet
>imagine being out of your body
>imagine yourself being a puppet that you control
>imagine others being puppets
>imagine others interact with your puppet
jokes aside I have no control over people and I'm not a game developer

but don't you want to be the first guy who makes all that mad dosh before all the others
whatever this "system" is they will make sure to take it just in case
you will be running late if you don't start now

I'm still joking btw because the truth is I don't like manipulating people and even if I wanted to I couldn't do it

>it genuinely has to be a shitpost
well according to the wikipedia definition it's not true because

>the act of using an online forum or social media page to post content that is satirical and of "aggressively, ironically, and trollishly poor quality"
there is no satire, no irony, no aggression and no trollish here

>Shitposts are intentionally designed to derail discussions
I'm pretty sure me and everyone else in this thread where always on point including the time cube thing
as long as it is posted here it is part of the thread and thus belongs in some way to what OP is talking about
you just didn't "connect the dots" yet
if someone takes a shit, makes a picture of their own shit and posts it here, it will make it's way into the game somehow
as long as it is posted here it's part of the thread and thus part of the game

>or cause the biggest reaction with the least effort
well yeah it did not take much effort to put these things together but I don't see how this would cause "the biggest reaction" whatever that even means

>sometimes made as part of a co-ordinated flame war to make a website unusable by its regular visitors
I don't see how since I'm not part of a group and I don't see why I would make to want the site unusable for others
>>
We all want magic with a bunch of cool powers, but nobody ever comes up with good ways to handle it.
>strong/tough armored dude who is good with melee weapons and maybe thrown weapons too
>agile/perceptive light-armored dude who is sneaky and mobile and does extra-damage precision attacks against vulnerable enemies and is good with ranged weapons in general
>smart/strong-willed/charismatic dude who wears robes and has spells that can do basically everything and usually better than the others classes too
Strong guy can bash a door down (or intimidate a guard into opening it), agile guy can pick the lock (or pick-pocket the key, or manipulate a guard to open it), smart guy can cast a spell that knocks it down or cast a spell that unlocks it or cast a spell that disintegrates it or cast a spell that lets you go through the wall or teleport past it or mind-controls an npc to open it for you or fly to the top of the tower bypassing the door entirely, etc. Mages need to be more limited. For instance, if there is a spell that lets you knock a door down, it needs to be generally worse than a strong fighter doing it, same with magically unlocking the door and a thief doing it. The mage needs to not have access to every spell, especially not all at the same time, and spells that do what somebody else can already do need to be worse than the mundane option (so like a mage can make up for a party that lacks a strong guy by knocking down doors, but he can't knock em down as easily as a strong guy; so a lvl 5 door needs a lvl 5 strong guy OR a lvl 10 mage to knock it down, but a lvl 10 strong guy can knock down a lvl 10 door. You can also do something where to knock down a door the mage needs to expend a spell slot/points to do it whereas the fighter can basically do it all day (or via fatigue; but he has more fatigue than the mage has spell points).
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>>2730967
I also support mages needing to specialize somewhat, kinda like warriors and thieves do. A warrior isnt a master of every weapon and style at the same time, likewise a thief isn't a master of every skill at the same time, a mage should have to pick and choose as well; he can't master every school at once. That might be the biggest problem; theres "fighers" and barbarians and paladins and rangers and blah blah blah but theres generally only "mages" and "wizards"; it needs to be evokers and conjurers and necromancers and all that. That doesn't necessarily mean an evoker cant cast a necromancy spell, but most of his spells should be evocation and he shouldnt be able to cast a lvl 10 necromancy spell at lvl 10; maybe he can do lvl 4 and lvl 10 or something, and like I said earlier: an evocation spell shouldnt handle a door as well as a strong fighter and especially a thief.

Honestly I think some magic ideas should just be scrapped, like divination. I don't think there should be a guy who can "see" whats behind a door or know whats going to happen; that steps on a scouts toes. I don't think you should be able to summon a monster that fights as well as a fighter (or better). I don't think a mage should be able to buff himself to be stronger than a fighter. It's okay to be able to buff yourself up to the level of "acceptable" as a melee combatant of your level, but a fighter should be better, and of course its even better to cast those spells on an allied fighter. Likewise with shit like invincibility and jump boosts; they help you do thief shit but if you cast them on an actual thief you now have a super thief. The key there is balance/limits.
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>>2730967
>>2730980
So when do you want an archer vs an evoker? I think mages should be the kings of ranged combat; "archery" should never be the exclusive focus of a class or character. Ranged attacks are an option for warriors and thieves, so they can at least participate in ranged combat, but the mage should be the best at it (at least if he specializes at it), and if a thief does "specialize" in archery, maybe thats just his primary contribution to combat and his primary contribution to the party is his thief skills. The evoker beats the archer thief at ranged combat, but the archer thief is still a helpful addition to the party in combat, while he is helpful in other ways as well whereas the evoker is mainly a ranged combatant specialist.

A party without a fighter should suffer in direct (especially melee) combat; definitely against juggernauts and bruisers.
A party without a thief should be underfunded and acting blind most of the time and have to take harder routes and fight more enemies at once.
A party without a mage should .....what? have a harder time against flying enemies? fortifications? large numbers of weak enemies? be just generally worse than otherwise? (a mage buffing a thief is better than two thieves; a mage buffing a fighter is better than two fighters, etc)
If we add healers into the mix, then you have parties who have a lot less endurance and spend more resources than a party without one; have less room for error.

We need clear answers to those questions.
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>>2730967
>>2730980
>>2730993
and then we get to the really hard part: the DMs side of the screen
A well-balanced party blows an unbalanced one out of the water. Just how hard should things be if you dont have a (class) in your party? How much do you have to prepare to accommodate what they have and what they lack? Should the game still be challenging for a well-balanced party? Possible at all for a really focused one (like four melee warriors)?

A party without a thief can't pick the lock, so maybe the warrior can bash it down, and if no warrior then maybe the mage can blast it down. A party without a warrior can't bash down the massive iron door that is barred so the thief cant pick it open, hell maybe even a warrior can't unless he's buffed by a mage/cleric. If you have a warrior and casters to buff him; when do you need to pick the lock at all? Well you want to be stealthy, right? You don't want to waste spells, right? If your party has multiple warriors and casters, do you even need a thief to scout or pick locks or whatever? You can just stomp everything. If they can't then they NEED a thief or they just lose, right?

Most devs/DMs make it possible to beat a game with whatever, but a balanced party has an easier time of it. Skilled/knowledgeable players find this frustrating because they want to apply their system mastery/skills and still have a challenge. Devs/DMs are mere humans with needs and limited time; how much can you expect them to deliver perfection? A game that REQUIRES you to be skilled/knowledgeable won't sell well because most customers are retarded plebs; a game catering to hardcore autists has a small market (a lot of work for not much money or fame or whatever).
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>>2730967
>>2730980
>>2730993
>>2731007
Maybe the best option to always have options for even a shit party to "beat" the game, but the better the party the more you get to experience and the better rewards/endings you get? Would give the game a lot of replay value (having a better party each time means new content on each playthrough). Would bridge the gap between not many customers and the respect of the hardcore gamers.

Doesn't help a DM much; the players only play the game once, and the more options you incorporate into a game the less of your prepared material that actually gets experienced by the players. Though I guess you have a "module" that you can keep using with other groups with minimal prep.

Shit's hard and I personally just end up playing vidja rather than bothering making shit for other people, though I do still enjoy thinking about it.
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>>2731007
>when do you need to pick the lock at all?
Maybe make picking more effective then bashing? As an example you did: A lvl 10 mage opens a lvl 5 door, and lvl 10 fighter opens a lvl 10 door, maybe a lvl 10 thief opens a lvl 15 door?
Also bashing over picking could have costs. As you mentioned breaking a lock is a lot less stealthy then picking, but it could also be more haphazard. Maybe there's a risk of damaging the goods in that chest, or maybe you set off a trap, or maybe some things just have locks where smashing doesn't really make sense.
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>>2730682
midwit post, bordering on stupid.
I agree that other guy's summary is bad but your refutation fails to fundamentally understand the concept primary vs secondary. Just because you're dominant or primary purpose is A doesn't mean you can't do B in a pinch or in some other way.

One thing stupid people complain about is a wizard being able to shapeshift into a monster that's as good a fighter as a real fighter. But, like, what would be the fucking point of shapeshifting into a shitty fighter anyway? Spells are already balanced with costs and

>Shooter, sneaker, talker
None of these are big enough roles to count as a pillar. Talkers don't even have a role if your enemies attack on sight.

>>2730686
>spoonfeed me, I suck
Ok.
Turn-based combat is inherently thoughtful. The whole point is you think and decide what to do on each turn. Of course it doesn't mean you're doing some kind of philosophy or trying to think 30 turns ahead like Chess or something, but I assumed you weren't a binary-brain idiot and didn't need that explained. Action combat can be thoughtful, but that is not the essence of action, it's not the critical element. See above my response to the other guy on being too stupid to understand the concept of primary and secondary.

MMO combat (like WoW) is real-time and decision-oriented. It's mostly not action combat. Dark Souls is an action game focused on testing mechanical skill, timing, and reflexes. Dark Souls requires thinking and WoW requires timing and reflexes. But WoW has RPG-style combat and Dark Souls doesn't. You could, for example, apply RTwP rules (or time-slowing) to a single-player version of WoW and it would become entirely strategic-- easier but still essentially the same game. Meanwhile if you tried to add pause to Dark Souls, the challenge would entirely disappear. It would not even be the same game anymore. This is because Dark Souls is an action game while WoW is not.
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>>2730769
um sweetie I don't see a videogame with your glorious totally not a shitpost systems
thanks for the giant wall of autism though, not reading any of it until I see some practical results like an actual videogame showcasing it instead of your mental illness mmkay bye
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>>2719392
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>>2719392
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>>2732194
what did you do to my sktree?
what does the colors and symbols mean?
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>>2733020
its just some retard thats really bad at image editing
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>>2733020
>what did you do to my sktree?
played around with it

>what does the colors mean?
main classes
priest, wizard, warrior, archer

hybrid classes
priest and warrior = paladin
wizard and archer = sorcerer
priest and wizard = arbiter
warrior and archer = slayer

subclasses
inquisitor
warlock
warlord
deadeye

>what does the symbols mean?
nothing

>>2733037
looks like you need to get a life instead of following me around
>>2728482
it's not a forced meme btw because a meme can only be forced when it starts to exist
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>>2719392
I agree. Wizard can do everything the other two do anyway except better
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>>2733733
Jokes on you, they're all wizards. >>2730682
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>>2720645
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>>2733699
I'm definitely part of a secret group whose only goal is to oppress this guy
>>2734418
and it's totally not because he is a complete idiot with no skills, no coherence, no brain.
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>>2719392
Why deny one of the most ancient tropes in RPGs?
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>>2719392

Removing left and right and keeping only the best center one.
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>>2734494
Unironically this.

Making everyone magic users fixes all major balance issues and you can still have different types of magic or different specializations to prevent all characters being the same.
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>>2734453
that trope got immediately invalidated in the sequel adding 4th class
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>>2734557
Except that class is secret and can't be chosen on character generation.
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>>2734554
When you make everyone a magic user, you wind up with Div:OS.
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>>2734573
And that's a good thing.
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>>2721170
>sees other replies being negative and decides to spit out random offensive shit to fit in
ok
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>>2734652
or maybe there's barely any effort done to warrant a serious reply?
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>>2734706
nigger
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>>2734718
no, youre the niggers in this thread
I mean just look at this >>2732194
he calls it better when its completely arbitrary
op learned how to use basic shape tools in some image editing software and thinks it adds flare to it
just because you add some green rectangles and random lines it doesnt make it a better and sophisticated system
how can he talk down on the trinity archetype and then go ahead and make hybrid classes that are just as similar?
its low effort and the reply was the same, action=consequence
and the biggest argument is theres no application of any of it in practice so dilate and kys
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>>2734723
>t. doesn't understand basic diagrams
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>>2734745
>Expects people to read non-standartised non-contexualised diagrams that carry no illustration of practical correlation whatsoever.
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>>2734772
Yes, I expect people to have a modicum of intelligence.

Though I guess I should know better.
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>>2734745
>nooooooooo give me validation for my absurdly low effort, derivative 'diagrams' along with my amazing paint.net skills and take me seriously!!!!!
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>>2734777
yep I bet it took you a lot of intelligence to make those lines bend in two different directions.
nevermind taking priest + warrior = paladin.
woah. take that classic archetype!
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>>2734777
>Though I guess I should know better.
Clearly this place only holds your superiority back. I believe it's time for your to leave to greater pastures.
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>>2734784
Kek. Now this guy can bantz. Have a good day, sir.
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>>2734784
>the green shapes clearly represent the archer progression dynamic
>you just don't have the modicum of intelligence to comprehend the carefully shaped trapezoids of my visionary genius
I submit, this place is entirely beneath you. I cannot wait to see your intelligence in our industry!
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>>2734795
>in our industry
Sorry, I don't want to work at a gay club.
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>>2734852
Good luck making it anywhere with such blatant homophobia.
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>>2720446
>>2720454
>>2721007
>>2721012
>>2721975
>>2721982
>>2722033
>>2722757
>>2722761
>>2722772
>>2722894
>>2724507
>>2724510
>>2724928
>>2730517
>>2730539
>>2730542
>>2730546
>>2731457
>>2732194
>>2734852
if these are the best you can come up with then you're gonna have to suck some dick to get ahead, in any industry frankly
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>>2734871
"Phobia" would imply that I am scared, which I am not because I am actually disgusted. The appropriate word would be "homorevulsive".

>>2734874
The sex work industry will drop harder than a faggot with turbo AIDS. Remember to buy the dip by fellating a shotgun.
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>>2734874
you forgot one
also if I was rude to anyone then I apologize but it's not my fault
social media does this to you
I'm going to take a break from it
keep thinking about my superior graphs when you go to bed today
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>>2734874
wtf is any of those?
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>>2725876
>some games do this right that means other games can't do it wrong
That's an incredibly retarded point.
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>>2734987
ok autismo when you're sucking off an actual developer to get into this industry maybe use that superior intellect to learn how something as basic as anti-alias works before saving your superior graphs in paint.net or whatever bootleg indian soft you pirated to create these rectangles of genius
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>>2734874
>there's always that one seething retard who quotes half the thread
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>>2735054
Half the thread is one retard. It's literally all one guy.
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>>2734987
If you don't want rudeness towards you then don't start a thread with a loaded premise(which you have determined for everyone) and then don't proceed to dump very poor quality images and explanations of what you think is better or without providing some semblance of any practicaly application of any of it. It's that simple, you got this drama as a result of that.

If you wish for people to listen to you then give them something to work with. So far, this has been unconvincing.
>>
These falseflagging trannies LARPing as a "actual game dev" is the funniest shit I've seen in this board. You niggers wouldn't even pass at Ubishit.
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>>2735048
If the only example you can think of is D&D, which doesn't support your point because Fighters are awesome in D&D, consider that you're probably pitching a bitch fit over a straw man.
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>>2735267
Nobody was larping as a dev here besides OP with his derivative diagrams, where he clearly thinks they're a guaranteed multi-million dollar system he discovered singlehandedly with no practical application of any kind.
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>>2720454
10 bucks there's a Mother clone out there with shit similar to this
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>>2720936
>>Witcher
>You do not fit any of the three archetypes
more like you fit all 3 of the archetypes
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>>2720645
Great. I want some pancakes now.
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>>2735636
Geralt is more of a fighter that uses a little bit of magic just like the character he was directly plagiarized from, Elric of Melnibone.
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>>2720456
The people that created this shit where precisely the opposite of normies. stay in school zoomer.
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>>2720915
>zero clue what he is taking about
>thinks he could do better
>thinks some 70s nerds have the benefit of hindsight

Bro shit ain’t skyrim. Fantasy role play goes wayyyyyuyyyyhyhyy back
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>>2720925
>still doesn't say what he'd do instead
everytime
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>>2719392
>This trinity of archetypes is a menace!
>How do we get rid of it???
You only need a party of two: A paladin and his squire.
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>>2736547
But which one is the player?
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>>2737022
the squire
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>>2737022
The common peasant
You are anything from random farmer #612 to random merchant assistant #413. If you try hard enough you might even become cannon fodder for the knights (if you help you cousin 40 hours into the game)
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>>2719392
The only particularly bad thing about fighter wizard rogue is that rogues being in every game means there are countless RPGs out there with badly-implemented, shoehorned-in stealth systems.
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>>2739557
Good point except that I'd say a good stealth system can be fun and rewarding. It's all the other rogue shit that is more likely to be lame (pickpocketing, lockpicking, trap/secret finding).
>>
Why change something that just works?
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>>2730967
>>2730980
>>2730993
>>2731007
>>2731012
I deserve some (you)'s.
>>
The design space of a program won't match tabletop space.

Video games are about which side has their life bar run out faster.

Immersive sims and some games try to add a sneaking path to objectives.

Some try to add dialogue path.

But this is normally wasted dev time on alternate routes that normies never bother with.

So just make a tactical game that integrates stealth and strategy elements like Jagged Alliance.
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>>2739557
Yeah, that stuff is largely busywork that mostly exists to give rogues something they're uniquely good at. I would say the overwhelming majority of RPG stealth systems are bad, though.
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>>2740778
Meant to reply to >>2739631
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>>2740678
Too verbose. The little meat I saw wasn't worth slogging though the rest.
Work on your signal:noise.
>>
>>2740914
it went over your head then



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