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Why is the customization so shallow compared to FFIII and V?
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Because that's how they made it.
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4, 6 and 9 are the only games before 13 with completely linear progression. They're bad, mkay.
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Mainly because OP is a fag.
But apart from that, IV has the best gameplay in the series and is why Free Enterprise is far and away the best randomizer hack for any SNES game.
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>>2362857
They put all the effort into the script and completely ignored the game part.
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Because their classes are integral to their story in 4. Rydia, Edge, Edward, Palon & Porom, Tellah, Yang, and especially Cecil are all tied into what they are as much as who.
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>>2362942
>What is ATB
Dumbest take imaginable.
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>>2362956
>what is atb
A mistake
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>>2362956
A garbage gimmick made by people who notoriously do not care about gameplay for people who notoriously do not care about gameplay
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>>2362969
This. That's why FFX has the combat system in the series.
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>>2362971
zoom zoom
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>>2362969
>>2362972
>filtered plebs
FFX abandoned ATB because FFIX was a shit implementation of ATB. It was the right move at the time. But it's beyond stupid to fail to credit FFIV for introducing the battle system that defined the series for the next decade and was used by the best-selling game in the entire series (FFVII).

The answer to OP's question is that they didn't focus on customization because they'd introduced a brand-new, unique battle system and wanted to focus on showing it off. FFIV's boss battles are all designed for the specific party you'll have at that point in the game. Bosses change state, shift weaknesses, and so on. Several battles depend on you NOT having a character who can pierce wall defenses (Baigan, Magus Sisters), others expect you to have characters that can cast lightning spells, and so on.

To somewhat compensate for this, Final Fantasy IV lets you accomplish a lot more customization with gear than is typical of other games. By the end game, there are various loadouts that can give you huge stat swings and significantly change the way a character plays. Several weapon types are usable by many different characters, giving you decisions to make about who should use which weapon (Give the Mute/Magemash dagger to Rydia for the +5 magic, or give it to Edge for bonus damage against magic-users. If you get a Power Suit drop, who do you give it do?). Plus you have a 5 slot party, so by the end you have a well-balanced party with most of the game's relevant abilities.
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>>2363051
ATB is inherently shit.
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>>2363051
People don't buy FF for the gameplay, the only people who care about ATB are midwits and there's a reason hardly anybody outside of Square bothered with it, even Square abandoned it because it's inherently garbage.
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>>2363052
>>2363063
>meme replies from zoomers who don't know what the fuck they are talking about
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>>2363138
>buzzword, buzzword
>NEED ME
Take your meds, perhaps.
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>>2362857
Because they wanted a good game with characters that were unique from each other instead of "every character can do everything, nobody has a unique identity." FF4 is a very tightly designed game, because the devs knew exactly who would be in your party and about how strong they would be at every part of the game. Other titles had to be balanced around trying to guess what the player would do, and making sure challenges were beatable even if the player was using some stupid shitty team comp.
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>>2362857
Don't know, but it certainly aged poorly because of it.
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>>2363051
it's kind of funny this dude wrote a detailed explanation about the mertis of ff4's design only to get retards that didn't/couldn't read it saying "b-b-b-but muh atb sucks"
hate to see it
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>>2363241
You claimed "they focused on story and completely ignored the game part."
I pointed out: IV introduced ATB, the most important, series-defining gameplay innovation they ever produced.
Having been blown the fuck out, you faggots plead desperately
>b-but ATB is shit
>n-nobody plays Final Fantasy for the gameplay
Just fuck off and kill yourselves already.
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>>2362857
first FF game made for the SNES
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>>2362942
If they put all the effort into the script then why is the script so shitty?
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>>2363138
>Everyone who disagrees with my world views is underage
I'm 34, I played those shitty games when they were released, nobody fucking bought or buys FF for the gameplay, which is why they're always trying to reinvent the wheel to reel in the actual "zoomers" of every generation just like they did with you, just like they did with ATB, which they promptly discarded when they thought it wasn't doing so hot with the "zoomers" anymore, which is also why they just gave up entirely now and are making action games, because Witcher and Souls are big and that's what the "zoomers" and casuals want.
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>>2363434
>I was four and couldn't read or do arithmetic when FFIV came out, but I not only played it but was also completely in-tune with prevailing attitudes and expectations of the average fan at the time.
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>>2363500
You gotta understand, his mom told him he was really smart for his age
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>>2362911
6 does not have completely linear progression???? You can literally go and fight Kefka as soon as you get the airship
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>>2363306
Wrong, I said ATB is inherently shit.
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>>2363500
More in tune than you are, especially since not even Square agrees with your imaginary reality, ATB was dropped like a rock decades ago and nobody gives a damn about the gameplay in FF, see XV selling nearly 9 millions.
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>>2363051
Equipment is so close to being a strong suit for ff4 but it just falls short. If you follow the equipment progression normally and just equip the newest stuff to each character you will find that some equipment is really debilitating, for example minerva has great defense and magic defense so you throw it on Rosa or Rydia and lower their wisdom and will by 15 points. Rydia's fire whip reduces wisdom (the main contribution to black and summon magic). The power suit removes all points of evasion/magic evasion for higher strength so it makes edge a glass cannon even more than usual which just doesn't play out well unless you over level. There aren't enough pieces of equipment and the little amount of equipment that exists favors paladin Cecil to a ridiculous extent. The game would have benefited greatly from relics or equipment like elven mantles or fire/angel/reflect rings from the next games. I do love ff4 and am fine with the lack of job customization but I do wish equipment would be a bigger factor like you are saying it actually is.
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>>2364151
>I do wish equipment would be a bigger factor like you are saying it actually is.
The part you're complaining about (debilitating aspects) IS what makes the equipment choices meaningful.
You can pick +WIS, or +STR/-WIS. The +str gear also often has good physical defense, sometimes crazy high for a back row character like Rydia (although her HP still sucks). Minerva also dramatically boosts speed.

If you stack up +str items on Rydia, you can get her damage up to surprisingly respectable levels, especially if you also can exploit weak points (easier to do with Dragon whip or Bow&arrow than the Fire Whip, but there are still a handful of fire-weak enemies in the endgame). But if you build her that way, her magic damage will suffer (but she'll still be able to cast all of it, it'll just be much weaker than if you deck her out with +wis gear Stardust/Tiara/Sorcerer/Rune/etc). But if you build her like a mage, her physical output will be effectively nil.

In a game with party swapping, you could just swap out Rydia for Cid or Yang. In a job system game you could change her class to a Ninja and add Call magic as a secondary, and give up black magic altogether. These are all big tradeoffs. In FFIV, the tradeoff is that Minerva has +15 Physical stats -15 Magic stats.

>but it just falls short.
For what it's worth, the part where I think it actually falls short is the linearity and relatively limited phase of the end game where you have enough powerful gear to make interesting choices. This is why I love Free Enterprise so much, it solves all of those problems while keeping all the characters/classes, items and abilities the same. You gain character swapping, open world non-linearity, item randomization, and opportunities to face all the various bosses (with their movesets and weak points) with location-appropriate stats (fighting Ogopogo in the misty cave will have Ogopogo's combat script and weaknesses with Mist Dragon's combat stats).
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Just finished it(PSP)
Fun game but I don't know what the fuck they were thinking with the last couple floors of the final dungeon
>enemies dealing 1 damage to Cecil, really easy
>go down one floor
>suddenly all encounters are bosses who deal absurd amounts of damage, Behemoths who are a pain in the ass to fight and death masks who thanks to reflect make every fight a shitshow DPS race
>final boss is way ahead of the level curve, forced to grind for 1-2 hours so you don't get party wiped by big bang + bio spam even with the strongest equipment
I don't know why people meme up the FF3 final dungeon when it was so easy as long as you bought potions, at least it didn't force grinding to this level
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>>2364287
You can beat Zeromus in your late 40s on battle speed 1 with no exploits if you know what you're doing, at least in the SNES version. I don't know about the PSP version.
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>>2364255
I do understand that you are able to swap gear to sort of swap classes, especially rosa/rydia but the way the game is built it is more beneficial to use rydia as a summoner and rosa as a white mage. Any variation is more for novelty purposes and is risky without any reward. I do agree about free enterprise being an amazing way to play and do a few runs every year, usually around april fools timeframe. I think free enterprise highlights the fact that equipment is sparse though because most seeds have you often sitting with characters who have weak equipment for too long until adamant comes to town. Cecil is always going to hit hardest with fight, edge will have the best attack numbers due to ninja stars, rydia will have best multi target attack, rosa is essentially porom because bows and arrows won't out dps cecil or edge and you need healing magic, I personally like kain a lot but he just gets cecils leftovers unless you are doing bonus dungeons (if you are doing bonus dungeons then kain and cecil will both do max damage and have max defense) I would love a way to get more variety with equipment and maybe another dungeon or two that aren't shitty
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>>2364287
The equipment screen hides evade% so you might be handicapping your team on accident. If you are playing the original or the pr you should be able to just hold a to beat behemoths pretty early on
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>>2364334
The shit thing about Zeromus is that he is in no way challenging, he's just an HP check on Rosa, once you can live his big attack at even just 1 HP it's trivial.

>>2364151
The mages are mages and the physical weapons are meant to gimp their magic, that's the customization. On Rydia there's no point to it, but Rosa is fun with her dragon killer bow and arrows, makes a lot of encounters way easier.

It's a SNES FF game I'm not expecting much in terms of customization, up until 7 it's all just about getting good magic on everyone and nuking your way through.
One thing I wish was different were the Summons, they're all just basic nukes that while very useful are really boring. Wish they had done the DQ route where summons are an extra party member that act independently, tie all the power ratings to Level and have each summons have a few actions they can do. Maybe Shiva could have a Sleep spell, a Protect spell and a Slow spell and Diamond Dust as a finisher.
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>>2362911
Kill yourself.
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>>2362972
X-2's combat blows X out of the water.
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>>2364441
What you say about FF4's boring summons is something I blame on FF3. I have no idea why they made the far more interesting (but underpowered) Evoker's hodgepodge of weird summon abilities evolve into Summoner which just turned everything into boring nukes. I don't think summons in the series became interesting until X and XI otherwise.
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>>2364518
Yeah, true. I don't get why the Summoner didn't learn all three spells per level of summon, it would've made the job a much more interesting.
Weird that other series that didn't put any emphasis on summons did a better job than the one where they're a story element.
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>>2363434
this is exactly right. though to be fair, ATB was a squaresoft invention and innovation, despite how dumb it was. now they are copying what's popular. so it's a regression.
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>>2364441
>The shit thing about Zeromus is that he is in no way challenging, he's just an HP check on Rosa, once you can live his big attack at even just 1 HP it's trivial.
It's not trivial. You still have to execute. If you cast heal at the wrong time or try to get in an extra non-healing turn with Rosa (who is extremely useful in casting Berserk), you can quickly find yourself fucked. If you take a chance casting magic and Rosa takes a Nuke to the face, there might not be time to heal before Big Bang finishes her off.
People who say he's nothing more than an HP check are people who grinded to 60 and want to believe that all that extra grinding made no difference. They are wrong.
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>>2364441
>up until 7 it's all just about getting good magic on everyone and nuking your way through.
Melee is, in general, more powerful in FF4 than magic. Magic in FF4 is all balanced with cast times except for Nuke and Virus (also everyone who can use black magic has shit for hp). Also, many enemies counter magic specifically but not melee, including Zeromus.
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>>2365889
>this is exactly right.
lol you are an idiot. try reading the thread that guy made a massive fool of himself.
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>>2365905
>You still have to execute
Yes it's a very rote encounter that has an HP check to it, it's trivial afterwards. Level 50 is enough to survive his big hit and you'll be over that by just fighting the encounters you get just walking from point A to B.
I don't get why you're kvetching and creating strawmen to attack over a 30 year old game, touch grass.
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There are different versions of FFIV with different difficulty levels
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>>2365889
>now they are copying what's popular
They've always copied what was popular, FF1 was created with the sole intent to one up DQ1 at its own game.
FF's logic was always copying the most popular thing on the market and then adding gimmicks and chocobos to it.
It never was an innovative series by admission of Square themselves, since 3 it has always been about a linear story focused experience with low effort mechanics and more and more money on the presentation to make up for the weak gameplay, it has always been about sticking to what works and getting big money, the few gimmicks that more often than not bit them in the ass and were instantly dropped are just there as a weak front to reel in casuals.
People trying to pass of these games as some kind of revolutionary, experimental masterpieces are utterly deluded drones still high on the 90's Square Kool-Aid, FFIV isn't any different, if anything it's an incredibly embarassing game, with ATB being the least of its problems.
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>>2362972
Agreed.
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>>2363500
Jokes on you i still can't do math
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>>2364287
This happened to me a few months ago and sadly i lost interest because I knew I had to grind after getting to the last boss. Grinding is ok but I hate when it's specifically for a last boss since I never had to the entire game.
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>>2365925
You're just wrong. It's not a rote encounter if you fight it at level 50 (in fact at that level, Zeromus might be too fast for you to survive Big Bang unless you get really lucky).
All you have to do is stop saying blatantly wrong things and I won't respond.
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>>2363051
Yeah the equipment did give some customization for the characters, even if the main way to play was the common sense way.

Still it was fuckin metal to watch Rydia punch the shit out of things if one desires by equiping her with physical oriented stuff even if it nerfs her magic. Especially when leveling to 99 and her stats go apeshit, having this green mage chick punch the shit out of dragons is some hilarious stuff.

DS version gives some nice minor but pretty significant customization, so now this crazy bitch jump kicks things instead, while paralyzing them.
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>>2365977
Imagine so confidently spouting such baseless bullshit.
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>>2368299
You're the one spouting bullshit, it's a very simple rote encounter, all you do is heal and hit, that's it.
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>>2362956
>What is ATB
Japan's equivalent to real time with pause ie complete garbage that shouldn't exist.
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>>2369221
I honestly think that your memory is exaggerating how physical rydia can be. Dragon whisker will cause you to hit a dragon for max damage but that is because racial bonuses are crazy good in ff4, even better than element bonuses. I maintain that if you are purposefully equipping rydia to be physical you are just hindering a good mage to be a mediocre fighter with low hp to boot. Unless you are farming golden apples and can max hp I guess but doesn't make her better than Cecil or even Kain which is kind of lame in the vanilla game
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>>2369386
Well of course she wants mage equipment. Didnt say physical Rydia was good, just an option, a hilarious option at that. Rydia wants to melt shit or bring out dudes to melt shit. Physical Rydia is a novelty, but a viable novelty. The primary reason to use whip attack is for the paralysis chance. Its FF4, even the origional SFC version version isnt hard. Anyone can punch hard if highly leveled, well cept Tellah.

Still wouldn't hurt to equip stuff that gives agility, better defenses, or stam if given the option without reducing magical stats. There was more than just the bustier. Thats what I liked about FF4, small amount of choices sure but there was variety instead of just all direct upgrades.
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>>2362857
because it's narrative and character driven rather than gameplay driven.
Just a different way to do it I guess, it is somewhat better story than III and V
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>>2362911
Linear does not equal bad nor does non-linear equal good. What a stupid meme.
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>>2365905
>It's not trivial. You still have to execute.
Well, you learn that execution once and you've pretty much mastered the game. After that, replaying FF4 is basically reading off a script. At least with games like FF5 and FF6, you're free to indulge in their more robust customization and have some variety with each replay.
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>>2369237
What baseless bullshit, all of that is true and there's multiple interviews with the various devs themselves that spell it out
https://na.finalfantasy.com/topics/176
>First, we’d like to ask how you came to be involved in the FINAL FANTASY (hereafter FF) series of games.
>Ishii: After joining SQUARE, the first proper project I did planning for was FFI. It started when Mr. [Hironobu] Sakaguchi said he would be making an RPG like DRAGON QUEST

http://web.archive.org/web/20200626025911/http://www.rpgfan.com/features/creatorstalk/index1.html
>Q: There is no statelessness, but rather an image of many states and an intercultural one. Indeed, the way of the presentation and the game's structure, the challenge to do new things is the major characteristic of the SaGa series. If Final Fantasy is the "rule of right", SaGa carries the image of a pioneer.
>A: Indeed. It was Final Fantasy, that by selling a lot of copies, prepared our company-intern infrastructure (laughs).

https://www.siliconera.com/final-fantasy-vi-staff-talk-about-the-rivalry-with-dragon-quest-that-helped-the-series-grow/
>Hironobu Sakaguchi: “A lot of it was influenced by Dragon Quest. Dragon Quest just had this unique vibe about it, along with a spectacular scenario from Yuji Horii-san. We were mostly fired up with a rival mentality, thinking ‘We must surpass them!’ rather than thinking ‘We’ll make something top-class!’”
>Yoshinori Kitase: “Back in the days of Final Fantasy V, Sakaguchi-san, I remember you saying ‘We’ll at least beat ‘em (Dragon Quest) in the amount of main-numbered titles!’”

FF has always been a series that played it safe by copying other successful franchises of the time, back then it was DQ, nowadays it's Witcher/Souls/DMC and what have you (because they never beat DQ in Japan so they stopped trying), to pretend otherwise is the peak of delusion, but after reading this vehement defense of a game as shitty as FFIV I shouldn't expect anything else.
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>>2369386
>I maintain that if you are purposefully equipping rydia to be physical you are just hindering a good mage to be a mediocre fighter with low hp to boot.
It can be worth it in a fight against a boss that counters magic, especially with berserk. Most spells that aren't Virus or Nuke take a long time to cast. With Berserk active, Rydia is likely to get 2-3 attacks in for every spell she'd have otherwise been able to cast.
>>2369303
Just wrong. If that's your tactic, you'll need to be a higher level than is necessary to win. Leveling to the point where there is no risk of Rosa dying means you are higher level than you need to be. The fight isn't super complicated, but it isn't rote either, especially if you want to take on the very modest challenge of trying to kill him as fast as possible. Z has enough hitpoints to test your resources if you don't deal damage fast enough. The most effective way to deal damage is to berserk your fighters, and Zeromus's Black Hole cancels Berserk. So there's an ongoing dynamic with buffing, healing, de-buffing.

I really don't know why you're being so foolishly stubborn about a 30 year old game that you clearly haven't even played in many years. I'm disputing you because I've played FF4 Free Enterprise and that's a hack literally built (by default) around the Zeromus battle. So I've fought Zeromus dozens of times at many different levels. I'm not making some kind of crazy claim about the fight being insanely challenging or tricky. All I'm saying is that claiming the fight is rote is wrong, so long as you aren't over-leveled. I'll even admit that it's fairly easy to be over-leveled and you have to play somewhat aggressively to reach Zeromus at suitable levels. But it's not rote.
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>>2369840
nigga all you have to do is play them to see how they're not anything like the stuff you keep insisting they copied from. Besides, to act as if the FFIV, FFVI, and FFVII weren't' insanely influential and didn't break ground is just flat out delusional. Stop being a faggot hater.
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>>2362857
Because customization wasn't what they were going for. Unlike in 3 and 5, the character's classes and abilities tie into the story.
Cecil starts out as a bad guy (a literal dark knight) and gains redemption though his actions by becoming a paladin and working to correct his sins. It also allowed for a rotating cast where each member felt different and unique not just in a story sense but in a gameplay sense which is something that FF 3 and 5 couldn't and didn't do. I mean for example you literally have a party member die only to be replaced by the exact same character but with a different sprite. That's how interchangeable they were in terms of gameplay
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>>2370994
Yeah the galuf thing is a bit weird. Kinda comes out of the blue. Nothing wrong with any ratio of genders for characters, and I would still like ffv if it ended up being all male or female, but it just seems unnecessary. Especially because characters are purposefully interchangeable like you said. It just makes the player bummed out if they like galuf and that's it. Just flavor text really



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