>born into poor as fuck family >hates class system and upper classmen>wants to uproot the whole system so people have to earn shit and not be fucked over by class>starts simping for demon bitch>suddenly becomes might makes right>fuck the weak lmao >unleashes demons into mikado undoubtedly killing thousands including many of the lower class he was born into>sacrifices himself to become a gross fetus thing cuz "muh world of strength"seriously, people hate V's reps when this fucker exists?? Jonathan is almost as bad but at least he never did a 180 on his ideologies until he gets fucked by the angels
SMT4. Great world, great dialogue, awful story.
>>2355870>born into poor as fuck family >hates class system and upper classmen>wants to uproot the whole system so people have to earn shit and not be fucked over by class[...]>suddenly becomes might makes right>fuck the weak lmao Many such cases!
>>2355870Tell me you're boomer without telling me you're a boomer
>>2356087I stay up at night for the persona 5 revealed stream.
>>2355870>people have to earn shit>might makes rightit's not a big leap, and you could argue that having people getting benefits from their birth in an upper social strata allows someone who would otherwise be weak to evade consequences
>>2356198"Might makes right" and "people have to earn shit" contradict each other in the case of a social class system. Someone born at the top gets more free shit than someone born at the bottom could ever make up for through effort.
Someone actually holding consistent ideological beliefs would be weird and unrealistic.
Chaos, at least in IV, is Randian ancap shit.Walter hates class and hierarchy not because it's unjust and tramples on the poor, but because he should be the one on top trampling on the weak. He thinks it restricts someone who's naturally powerful, like the end of Atlas Shrugged where they go to their own gay little island(in real life ran by Epstein). Like a guy that wants the government's monopoly on violence gone so he can have his own McNukes and a private police force and kill everyone who doesn't pay rent to him.
>>2356777That makes sense
>>2356198it kinda is. I look at it like this>lower class people, on average, don't have the power to rise through the ranking>those who do have some semblance of strength now have to compete with demons>will likely get curb stomped>assuming somehow a human manages to reach the apex of power and become king or whatever>literally nothing stopping them from becoming a dictator and fucking everyone overif you're just an average human and can't fight, you're stuck hoping whoever's ruling isn't an asshole. Walter wanted to change the class system because everyone was stuck in their class and lower classmen were treated like shit, but ended up making it way worse by adding demons into the mix
>>2357237That does sorta feed into the whole "Chaos and Law are cyclical" thing 4 did. If might makes right, eventually someone will rise to the top and establish ground rules for everyone else to follow, thus Chaos leads to Law. But then (presuming that it's a shitshow), the people overthrow the Law, leading to Chaos.
>>2355870SMT was never good.
>>2356025What happens during [...]>realize poor people are mostly trash and that people arent suddenly good just for being poor and that being poor is a mix of poor decisions or poor genetics so you cant fix it without hurting the genetically superior who are the ones that make the world actually move and gave us technology>realize 99% of people that do things to "help the poor" are only helping themselvesThere is a reason people turn right wing as they age, because they learn to see the bullshit and the world for what it truly is.
corruption is bad and self-defeating, but i just don't understand people who want to make a virtue of weakness, that seems like how you'd keep honest people down through psychological means.
>>2358545>There is a reason people turn right wing as they ageBecause brain cells starts crystallizing, dying off, and you stop learning. Actually no, just you.
>>2359934You'll either grow up or be an eternal man child. Either way we get the last laugh.
>>2358545>being poor is a mix of poor decisions or poor genetics so you cant fix it without hurting the genetically superior who are the ones that make the world actually move and gave us technologyYou're posting on an elf-fucking sim discussing forum on an anime site
>>2358545>There is a reason people turn right wing as they age, because they learn to see the bullshit and the world for what it truly is.Being right wing means you want handouts for the parasites at the top instead of the bottom.
>>2358545>being poor is a mix of poor decisions and poor geneticsmutts everyone lmao
This is a problem SMT has always had, inevitably characters lose all semblance of what makes them actually characters and they just turn into a mouthpiece for their alignment.
>>2361871Proof you don't know anything about the right.
>>2361925I've seen enough of your wojaks and pepes
>>2361937>I'm a big enough retard to think meme's represent an actual belief system.
>>2361939Your belief system is a meme
>>2361942I'm not even defending rightoids retard, just stating the obvious fact that you don't know shit.
Why don't Chaos reps ever acknowledge that the average person doesn't have a tool to summon demons? The whole premise is flawed when most people can't become "the strong" anyway. It's actually very unfair.
>>2361959Randian and Lavaytan Satanism(which is just Objectivism with rituals) states that anyone who ends up in an unfortunate situation most likely deserves it. That's just how that trash is
>>2361925>Proof you don't know anything about the right.On the contrary, I understand it far better than you do.
>>2361986I'm sure you think you do.
>>2361991And I am correct. The original meaning of the political right is support for hierarchies and the ruling class. I am aware that most believers in right economics believe they are supporting a fair meritocracy, but that has literally never once been how it worked out in practice.To be clear, none of this means the libtards are any good.
>>2362008Thanks for confirming that you're retarded.
>>2362008Right wingers are slaves who think they wold be the masters
>>2362027left wingers are slaves who think they would never be masters
>>2362087We can all be the next Bezos and Musk bro, poor people just choose to be poor
>>2356707In what way?
>>2358545Trash by what metric, meatbag? Yours? With some rationalizations and self-justifications, no doubt?You presume much and know even less.
>>2362180Spoken like trash.
>>2362293He won't because he already knows how embarrassing and cuckish they are.
>>2362293I can only assume that you're trash since you're challenging the idea that the average person is worthless which means you probably feel insecure about it.>>2362337What?
>>2362348Human life, much like sapient life, is a touch a lot more sophisticated than your primitive reductions of it to mechanical superiorities and inferiorities.Your approach to life warrants only contempt, it is amoral and immature.
Wow, this is embarrassing even for a SMT thread.
>>2362177>In what way?The upper class has most of the shit but most of them did nothing to earn it. They have the might, which should make them right, but they didn't earn their shit, which should make them wrong.
>>2362015Perhaps an example would help. Ronald Reagan is, to this day, considered one of the great presidents, and the core of his policies was trickle down economics, the idea that if the state gives free stuff to rich people, this will bring prosperity to everyone. Trickle down economics has been so popular with the ruling class that it's all every president does now, the democrats are 100% into it too. It's also been an abysmal failure. It's increased the debt to unprecedented heights, massively expanded poverty, and driven society insane at every level. But conservatives still delude themselves into believing that Reagan was a good, anti-big government, pro-free market, pro-meritocracy, president when none of that was remotely true.
>>2363217Ah, but that's the trick. The irony with at least some of those kinds of people is that they got results by working, and they don't care by what means those results were acquired. Even with those from upper class who didn't do a thing in their life.The word "deserve" doesn't imply any particular moral notion, but rather a simple idea of "you get what you work for" — serve yourself. It's morbidly amusing how frequently misused this word is, by those who presume, and by those who know its meaning.
>>2362889Wow that sure is a lot of words to ultimately say nothing of value. As to be expected.
>>2363226Trickle down economics has been a real economic policy. Just using the phrase is proof you know nothing.
>>2363835>has never beenFixed that for me.
>>2363835>>2363838On the contrary, giving handouts and special privileges to the upper class has always been a real economic policy, under various names and various justifications. It's very nearly all the US government does anymore.
>>2363825Which values out of too many do you speak of in particular, bioautomaton?
he was angry about the caste society and law's red pill factory underground and took the first hand that offered him the chance to rebel against itit didn't matter if the angels were going to lift it because that just meant everyone was equal in subservience; he didn't want equality, he didn't want peace, he wanted opportunityIt's perfectly coherent and shared with most SMT alignment reps. Law and chaos are inhuman, extremist.In contrast four-eyes had no character to speak of and while Dazai was more interesting his character arc happens in the blink of an eye and comes off as comedy instead.
>>2364329>>2356025Generally giving poor people money hurts the economy while giving corporations tax exemptions grows the economy and increases the general QOL.There should be anti trusts and clearly regulations matter but the idea of just magically giving the lower class hand outs just causes more problems.
>>2364449>Generally giving poor people money hurts the economy while giving corporations tax exemptions grows the economy and increases the general QOL.Both of these are pretty debatable. In america the welfare system penalizes poor people for finding jobs is retarded but that doesn't mean something like UBI would be a bad idea. Other nations have far stronger social safety nets and don't particularly suffer for them. Also in America the corporate tax rules where small businesses have to pay their taxes and megacorporations not only don't, but also get massively subsidized is a complete disaster. Everything's getting monopolized. Everything's getting corrupt as shit. The government is completely owned by big businesses, most everyone is becoming poorer, and society itself is starting to crumble.The reverse, where mom and pop stores don't have to pay taxes but google has to pay out the nose would absolutely be better.
>>2364512The problem with your argument is that the EU can only do this shit because of 1. Their trade laws2. They completely rely on the US as their economic backbone.3. Have immense wealth in property and tourism within the context of geographic density.You are right monopolization is an issue, but yeah it makes sense that the US is fucked because we are getting massive whiplash from getting past industrialization too quickly as the labor force hasn't caught up. They aren't having this in the EU because of the tariffs and tax laws make it impossible to outsource compared to America which is heavily invested in the global economy. Europe would in ruins if the US didn't bail them out after WW2 and 2008
>>2364449>Generally giving poor people money hurts the economy while giving corporations tax exemptions grows the economylol
Atleast he's not the monke
>>2364449>Generally giving poor people money hurts the economy while giving corporations tax exemptions grows the economy and increases the general QOL.When you give poor people money they spend it almost immediately on goods and services, which is good for the economy. Giving poor people money allows more people to work less or not work at all, which is good for wages, which is good for the economy. When you give corporations tax exemptions you wind up with American-style monopolies.Look at how just recently, the US government threw a small, woefully inadequate bone to the working class for the first time in decades, and suddenly wages spike upwards, also for the first time in decades.Really the only fundamental problem with giving poor people money is that the middle class should also be receiving benefits. Giving corporations and the wealthy handouts, tax breaks, or anything similar is an unambiguously terrible idea.
>>2366666whatever you say GigaSatan
>>2355870the 'leap' is not as grand as you make it out to be. Walter's general ideology starts from an arbitrary perspective that there is an authentic means in which things can be earnt. for his podunk, hick faggot lifestyle, this would come in the form of ressentiment stemming from a king seizing assets from his malnourished father's farm. His father toils away, back breaking labor and all, simply to be taken by some fat fuck who has never worked a day in his life. The labor 'justly' makes the spoils belong to the father, not a king. Nevermind the fact that prolonged existential security from foreign threats that allows agricultural production to exist to begin with is only reinforced from the symbol formed from a monarch and his kingdom -- and is almost always a puppet for a greater organization behind said monarch; the same ressentiment that forms from gluttonous monarchs only exists due to the fact that plebians (to this day even!) can hardly fathom a complex entity inwhich many people and events can be held accountable, so it all comes down to a 'guy', and always one who is incompetent; made for an incompetent people. Walter ultimately channels this ressentiment into an ideology that states that what you have earnt with by your own hands is truly what is yours; wherein Jonathan believes in a hierarchal framework, that when interrogated, is bound to dogma that leads to issues anyone with two brain cells can see are inevitable.listen to Trump >>2356025 ; he's right I'll have you know!
>>2366666>simping for the FED to continue fucking our economy as we continue ever deeper into neo-serfdomya hate to see it happen folks!
>>2366933>can hardly fathomAren't you being a little bit too reductive?
>>2366666>wages aren't spiking because of giga inflation guys!How many shekels did you get for this post?
>>2366935>>2367021They print way the fuck more money to give to rich people and corporations than they ever have for the working class. It's not even close.
why are so many people filtered by IV's story? do you guys know that Ayn Rand was born in poverty herself? what he means with might makes right is that someone like him who's if lower class can rise to the top if he simply has the talent to do so. the point is luxurors aren't actually deserving of rule.Walter isn't a class warrior, like Ayn Rand doesn't, he's not about equality, he wants everyone to have equal opportunity to rise to the top, not for everyone to be treated equally. he was inspired by the Gaia clan that he met whose tenacity and pride impressed him.
>>2361959Church of Gaia martial artists cast spells and fight toe to toe with demons with no demon summoning program, through sheer training and dedication.
>>2367199No, might means right means other things.
>>2367199>aren't actuallyIncorrect, by literal word definition.
>>2367840It must be difficult for you being retarded an all.
>>2367839not that anon but I agree with him. Might means right fits walter (and naturally chaos). His whole thing is that anyone from any standing should be able to be on top from their own merit (strength). If those in the lower class couldnt survive then that just means they weren't worth it. Same with the higher class. He represents Chaos very well by clawing his way to the top by his own might, despite his shitty starting position.
>>2367918My point was those who he said "aren't actually deserving of rule" actually are by literal notion of "deserving".Nothing more.>means they weren't worth itWould you condemn and hurt those who can't even conceive ideas and notions beyond their daily life (irregardless of their level of intelligence), simply because they don't adhere to some merit?
>>2367931world isn't fair and walter gets it anon. he was enlightened by chaos and decided to embrace it. Is changing ideas ever so slightly a concept so hard to comprehend?
>>2367945World is equidistant, do not ascribe moral failures of humanity that could be averted by choices or disregarded entirely to reality, which is all the more ironic given that legitimately good people exist. Chaos is disorder, at any rate.I don't see what change of ideas has to do with anything.
>>2366666Don't trust satan, we did in latin america and look where we are now.
>>2367948> legitimately good people existthat's a moral projection onto things, and not everyone would agree with the 'good ones' to which you are referring to. >>2367931 irregardless dough, >>2367945is a fuckin idiot who can barely into abstraction, so dis is all moot anyways.
>>2368617No, it is not, and it shall not change, no matter how much dancing around the subject is done, or how studious in avoiding comprehending it any select individual is.It is irrelevant what the unknowing, or the lyrically waxing, philosophers or otherwise agree or disagree upon, because there's only one true moral metric, which is the true knowledge of good and evil.
>>2368654However, I don't particularly disagree.
>>2367199>do you guys know that Ayn Rand was born in poverty herself?Her family was fairly wealthy to start out, but the Soviets took a lot of it away and she got really butthurt about it and that was the foundation of her entire philosophy.
>>2368654ok famalam, don't even need a philosophizer for this one. just go outside and introduce yourself to like, 10 people.
>>2369378Not really, no.Asking lots of people who can only comprehend their own perspective will only result in them explaining it.
>>2364519Must be nice having an economic backbone that is $30 trillion in debt
>>2364519>The problem with your argument is that the EU can only do this shit because ofThe US could do it easily by simply repurposing the trillions of dollars used for handouts for corporations and billionaires every year.
you people have been arguing for almost a fucking week
>>2370840If you have a problem with it then don't bump the thread.
>>2355870Coming from a poor family, Walter sees just how weak and pathetic many of the upper class people are in comparison to him.He is a talented and strong man with great mastery over demons.Most of the upper class people are insects in comparison to him and so he wants to make a world of Chaos where the current system of law will not be able to hold back people like him from doing whatever the fuck they want.
>>2364435only person itt that actually reads the dialogue