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I have figured it out. In fact it's very easy and I am astonished why none of autists have beaten me to it.

RPGs are Role-Playing Games, that is games that allow to determine a role your character plays in the world of the game. As such, games like Arcanum, Baldur's Gate, Morrowind, Planescape, Disco Elysium are undoubtedly RPGs. These games allow you through there mechanics and stoytelling to define a character and the role they play, even if they sometimes give you a predetermined character with a set backstory.

However, going further it becomes a little trickier. First of all, let's define a some games that are not RPGs:
First of all, Skyrim. This is not an RPG, however superficially similar it is to Morrowind. The game is madde to experience all content on a single run which is why faction quest-lines are all almost forced on you. The game does not allow you to meaningfully define your character. While yes, joining most factions is technically possible in Morrowind too, it is much harder and most characters will not be able to. Skyrim is not an RPG.
Next, the Witcher series. The does not allow you to define your character. Why it allows you to choose some branching story paths, Geralt will always be Geralt. Witcher is not an RPG.
Dark Souls and most Dungeon Crawlers - this should go without saying. Not RPGs.

However, many people will say that JRPGs are not RPGs because of this. That is wrong. While games like Final Fantasy are certainly not RPGs, I would say that Shin Megami Tensei serious does allow the player to define their charcter and their role in the world are are therefore RPGs (Persona games, however, are not RPGs for the same reason as Skyrim - all content is designed to be experienced in a single playthrough).

In conclusion, Arcanum, BG, Fallout, Disco Elysium, Morrowind, Shin Megami Tensei and others are RPGs. Witcher Skyrim, Final Fantasy and Dark Souls are not and should be banned from this board.
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In conclusion, OP is not and will never be a woman.
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>>2264631
Why would I want to be a woman?
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>>2264615
Retarded take
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>>2264639
It's the only definition that makes sense. Defining RPGs based on the country of origin or based whether they have level ups and stats (which many games that are not RPGs have) is retarded.
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>>2264615
>Disco Elysium
doesn't have roles, it falls into the same category as Witcher
what it does have is very robust branching dialogue, but actually no roles or even story paths
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>>2264615
>RPGs are Role-Playing Games, that is games that allow to determine a role your character plays in the world of the game.
So gamebooks and visual novels can be RPGs?
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>>2264615
Rpg software was inspired by or based on tabletop roleplaying games. Mostly in terms of story structure and mechanics- level, experience, combat variables etc. Then the software genre evolved and grew its own conventions. Thats literally the entire thing.
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>>2264634
they have better attack animations
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>>2264856
any games other than diablo 2 where this is genuinely true?
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>>2264852
/thread
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>>2264644
>whether they have level ups and stats (which many games that are not RPGs have)
it' not about the presence of stats, it's that the stats are the major factor in overcoming a challenge, as opposed to player skill. a game can still have some rpg mechanics, and still be another genre if player skill is still the most important factor.
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>>2265743
>and still be another genre if player skill is still the most important factor
That makes absolutely zero sense. Is not allocating stats correctly a player skill? Is not making good decisions in combat a player skill? Is not ability to figure out how to solve a quest a player skill?
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>>2265976
are you retarded or ESL?
you know what i mean in regards to abstract character and strategy management vs muscle memory or reaction time.
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>>2266148
>strategy management vs muscle memory or reaction time
Are puzzle games RPGs then? Are strategies?
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>>2266196
>Are puzzle games RPGs then? Are strategies?
so you are retarded then. no they are not, because they do not have stats and mechanics that heavily factor into the outcome of challenges.
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>>2264631
fpbp
>>
RPG means:
Has stats
Has classes
Has levels
Uses THAC0
Simple as.
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>>2266236
>strategies
>do not have stats
Your units, buildings and resources represent the stats of your faction.
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>>2264615
Does this imply that Skyrim with the Dawnguard DLC is in fact an RPG, since you cannot side with both the vampire hunters and the vampires?
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>>2264687
Yes, why not?
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>>2264687
>So gamebooks and visual novels can be RPGs?
Yes, King of Dragon Pass is definitely an RPG.
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>>2268320
Good point, there is also Civil War questline. I would say Skyrim allows some opportunities for rolepaying, but very few of them.
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>>2264615
Incorrect, RPG is when stats matter more then player skill.
Not saying that stats should be the only way to win, but they have to have a signifigantly higher worth to progression than using any other tool/technique in-game.

It's a definition that fits everything previously agreed as an RPG, and kicks out anything questionable.
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>>2268451
I have already debunked that, see my above posts.
This definition was made post-hoc to justify having RPGs, JRPGs and action games with level progression on single board.
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>>2264615
icycalm already figured it out in 2008:

https://web.archive.org/web/20101123091742/http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_role-playing_games/
https://web.archive.org/web/20101123115622/http://insomnia.ac/commentary/the_rpg_conundrum/

He's put out more on RPGs on his Patreon since then. He has the definitive take on RPGs, both in tabletop and videogame form.
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>>2269080
>MMOs are the only real RPGs because uhhhhhhh you're a rando and tabletops have you as a rando so same
dropped and never share your shit takes here again
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>>2269099
Take your ADHD pills and maybe try reading it again so you'll actually understand it.
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>>2269108
>no bro, it needs to be SOCIAL in order to be an RPG or else like, you can't impact the storyline and shit
The fact that you had to drag it out of the archive speaks volumes. You're simping over a hot pocket eater and over MMOs, which already tells me you have garbage takes on everything. Post face.
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>>2269121
He shits on MMOs in the first article. You should at least finish reading the two articles I linked before commenting. Also, if you look at his Patreon page, his recent stuff is about a version of D&D he's developing — nothing to do with MMOs. This is the last reply you're getting.
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As much as IcyCalm is an autist and an actual piece of shit human being (wasn't there reports of him being a con artist and/or abusive or something?), has anyone ever actually successfully refuted his points? Seems like any counter-argument to IcyCalm's points just devolves into ad hominem attacks
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>>2264615
based and truthpilled. i'm sick of retarded normies hailing ff, skyrim and witcher as rpg's. not only are you assigned a class or do not even have classes in those games, you do not even play a role in them. no freedom of choice. you are either the dragonborn, geralt, or genericanimuprotagonist#691488
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>>2264631
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>>2268387
Well, Morrowind has you pick one from three exclusive factions, which would suggest that the threshold is two factions you can't join.
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>>2266236
Many strategy games actually have very in depth unit stats.
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>>2264615
Aren't rpgs a funny genre? They have the most autistic fanbase, yet nobody knows precisely what they are.
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>>2269134
>MMORPGs: For all intents and purposes these games will be treated as real RPGs, in which instead of assuming the role of someone of significance to the story, you are controlling an immortal peon in a world full of immortal peons (and there is really no story worth talking about -- either prefabricated or collaboratively created).

You're him, aren't you? That's why you dragged out your ancient blog from the archives. That's why you're so defensive, huh? Shill your Kiketreon a little less harder, I hope you go bankrupt.
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>>2266196
Don't know many puzzle examples, but strategy games do often have a shitload of RPG elements to the point that a lot of them are considered SRPG. And I'm not refering to the obvious ones like FFT, but ones like warcraft III and total war warhammer

I think the most important factor in this case is the concept of growing in power and leveling up
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>>2264615
Your definition doesn't fit the real-life usage of the term RPG. Therefore, it does not correctly define the term as it exists in the present.
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>>2271441
Only of you are a descriptivist cuck.
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Chess is an RPG if you make decisions with the different pieces based on their roles.
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>>2266148
Not really, you've just decided that 'skill' refers to a very narrow set of abilities on behalf of the player. Would you say then that a master chessplayer is 'unskilled' because they can't play a fighting game?
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>>2271765
Technically, yes. Each piece has their own skills - a pawn can't move like a knight can't move like a rook - you wouldn't use a pawn to kill a piece that was diagonal like you would use a bishop. As has already been said in this thread, player skill isn't important, since skill apparently doesn't include planning attacks or using the appropriate tool for the job.
It even has levelling up (a pawn that reaches the end of the board becomes a queen).
Chess is a party-based pvp SRPG. Also Worms.
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>>2271765
All SRPGs are literally variants of chess
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>>2271765
The understanding of "role" within the context of RPGs is social. Chess pieces don't have social roles, they have tactical roles.
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>>2272412
>The understanding of "role" within the context of RPGs is social.
Based on what, exactly?
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>>2272539
Definition and tradition. It's about characters. When you "play a role" in an RPG you're playing a character, which means you're engaging in some social context.
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>>2271890
>Would you say then that a master chessplayer is 'unskilled' because they can't play a fighting game?
Yes.
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>what is an rpg?
It’s an adventure game that mostly replaces player skill with simulation.
All rpgs have common gameplay that other genres sometimes borrow known as rpg elements:
>wilderness exploration and dungeon crawling
>resource management
>turn based combat
>power leveling and experience points
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>>2264615
Why do we have this thread every week? It always boils down to someone saying that CRPG's/WRPG's are based and that JRPG's are cringe and not true RPG's.

Is it just some retard peddling this shit or is this some Discord raid?
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How is Dark Souls not an rpg?
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How is Oregon Trail not an rpg?
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>>2271462
What's the point of redefining a word in a way that doesn't match actual usage here or anywhere? What do you intend to accomplish?
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(Videogame) RPGs are games that have characteristics derived from Tabletop Roleplaying Games
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>>2272916
Not really redefining. It's reinterpreting.
Since they're taking a collective noun, which we could just as easily name anything such as "Waffle Shark", and insisting it be read as an adjective.

I think Filipinos have trouble distinguishing something by virtue of plurality. And recognizing the use of synecdoche.

The difference between saying "it is a waffle shark" and "it is one of the waffle shark"
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>>2273564
Semantics aside, the OP's definition/interpretation excludes a majority of the actual usage and is therefore basically unworkable.
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>>2274028
There for "RPG is when stats matter more then player skill" wins out
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>>2274040
Essentially, yes, though I don't know if that's truly the most accurate definition. Here's mine:

>A game in which internal numbers defining gameplay-affecting attributes of the character are exposed to the player and may be increased over the course of the game.

This definition catches anything with RPG elements, of course.
>>
prescriptivist cucks get anal devastated harder than any other breed of faggot on 4chan, I've noticed over the long years.
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>>2274057
Stats over skill is more meant to be the bare bones basics, in that everything that is RPG fits and everything that is not generally doesn't.
But its not really built to define what the should aim for, just what everything that they are at a minimum includes.
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>>2274093
I think it neglects certain action-RPGs where skill and stats are difficult to weigh against each other, such as Monster Hunter.
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>>2274105
Tactical RPGs also don't necessarily fit the stats over skill formula desu
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>>2274105
Yeah, thats why theres a bit of a second bare bones where "ARPG is when stats are as important as player skill"
It's a whole lot worse in function then the former, but if taken together it sort of fits.
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>>2274127
Well, there's also the issue of "player skill" encompassing more than hand-eye coordination. What about strategy? In certain RPGs with complex game states and decision trees (e.g., Etrian Odyssey), strategy arguably matters more than stats. And yet Etrian Odyssey clearly isn't an action-RPG.
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>>2264615
>First of all, let's define a some games that are not RPGs:
>First of all, Skyrim.
Stopped reading, opinion discarded.
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>>2264631
/thread
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>>2268254
>Your units, buildings
>represent the stats of your faction.
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>>2274246
I'd say that a big deciding factor relates to how much mileage you get out of increasing your stats compared to increasing your skills, anouther thing that would need to be added to the ARPG definition is probably being in real time combat.
So Bare bones for ARPG is "When stats matter just as much as player skill in real-time combat".
But still, compared to RPG bare bones it's a bit garbage.
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>>2264615
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>>2274763
How is Skyrim an RPG? Isn't the only choice in the game whether you go with Nords or Imperials at the beginning?
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>>2275359
Because choices are not important for defining a VIDEO GAME as an RPG. That's only important for tabletop RPGs, and even there, that can be applied loosely if you're playing in a hack-and-slash campaign, where you won't be making a lot of choices in the first place.

This is why I dismiss the opinion of faggots like you. Everyone time I see someone say Skyrim or Witcher are not real RPGs, I also end up seeing a definition of video game RPGs that's completely useless. Even worse, when you're asked what Skyrim and Witcher actually are if they're not RPGs, you end up butchering another genre's definition as well by saying those two belong to that genre instead.
>Skyrim and Witcher are actually walking simulators
>despite the fact they have a game over condition and actual game mechanics
>Skyrim and Witcher are actually adventure games
>despite the fact Skyrim has nothing in common with games like Broken Sword and Monkey Island
>Skyrim and Witcher are actually action games
>despite the fact they play nothing like Devil May Cry or God of War

But please, do tell me how I'm wrong. Do tell me the real definition of RPGs is the one that makes 90% of RPGs, if not even more, not actually RPGs.
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>>2275675
The RPG genre in videogames is the way it is because developers couldn't simulate the endless story possibilities of tabletop, but they were able to simulate the stats, so they did that and got better at doing that over time. That's the only reason why you and everybody else has this view of what qualifies as an RPG in videogames. It has nothing to do with knowing better about what makes an RPG an RPG.

So Skyrim has stats, it has leveling up, it has quests, it has orcs and elves and dragons and shit... but you can't choose what character you're playing, which was the WHOLE POINT of designing the original RPGs for tabletop. In Skyrim, you can only be the Dragonborn who only does XYZ thanks to a series of cutscenes. You don't do any of those things of your own accord, because it's linear. Skyrim is even worse than some others because it doesn't even offer personality options in quests, it's pretty much always just "I'll do this for you" or "I won't do this for you" and that's it. So in what sense are you role-playing a character? In your imagination? It's not a role-playing game if it exists all in your head.
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>>2269403
>That's why you're so defensive, huh?
Ironic, considering you're the only one sounding defensive. I'll bet you're one of those retards on Twitter that occasionally try arguing with him.
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>>2276407
You've hit the nail on the head here: the term "role-playing game" means a different thing in video gaming than it does in tabletop gaming. The video gaming version isn't an especially appropriate term, given that—as you discuss—many so-called "RPGs" don't actually allow you to play a role, but it's the term being used and there isn't much of anything anyone can do about it, any more than we can re-narrow "roguelike" to encompass only turn-based ASCII games.
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I still relent that these 3 elements are the best way of determining an RPG

1. Some form of combat system
2. Some form of Choice & Consequence
3. Some form of builds/class system

This stops faggots from using shit like "b-b-but Fifa has leveling up and builds!" to discredit RPGs or faggots who say "Witcher 3 isn't an RPG, it's a pre determined character!" which when the same argument is applied, can completely remove established RPGs like Planescape/Gothic games from being considered RPGs.

It also keeps out the commie shit like Disco Elysium that is a VN masquerading as an RPG. You can cope, you can cry, but you cannot refute my argument.
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>>2266884
>has stats
There, this is all an RPG needs. I can name hundreds of games that don't have the other things you listed and are still RPGs.
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>>2269080
>Westerners are stuck on their numbers fetishism; the Japanese on their anime wankfests; and the MMO crowd on their pointless, absurd powerlevelling and hoarding of useless trinkets. Gamers know nothing and game journalists even less, while developers are either old dudes who have simply succumbed to market realities, or young ones who grew up on dungeon crawlers and know no better.
Based as fuck
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>>2276837
Also prevents the issue that arises from some of the other classifications in this thread of fucking tabletop RPGs of all things not being considered RPGs.
Yours seem to be the most solid one so far here.
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>>2276837
>>2276872
Majority of old CRPGs had no choice & consequence.
RPG doesn't need to have combat at all. I can use DnD to play murder mystery with boiz. We're still playing RPG and using stats, skills checks.
Basically you need to look at how game interact with its own system. Game can have no choices and consequences or rich dialogue, but in the same time it can be about character building. Heavy build system and hard combat where you need to use such system at your best. This is RPG
"VN masquerading as an RPG" is RPG indeed. Even if you don't like it. Planescape is the same VN.
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>>2276897
>Majority of old CRPGs had no choice & consequence.
And they were poor substitutes for TTRPGs because of it. The only reason to play them was for the visuals and for when you didn't have friends around to play TTRPGs with, which was most people.
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>>2276902
Not only because of that. It is unique experience. Computer was able to calculate things in real time. And very hard things. Something that will take hours for players to do manually. Plus MUDs.
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>>2276908
> It is unique experience.
Unique, and inadequate in comparison to TTRPGs when it came to role-playing, since they don't let you choose the character you role-play as outside the few options that the developers give you, which is never much.
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>>2276921
You can use imagination like a true Chad.
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>>2276931
Just play a TTRPG, they're better for that too lol
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>>2276897
>Majority of old CRPGs had no choice & consequence.
Name them.
>RPG doesn't need to have combat at all. I can use DnD to play murder mystery with boiz. We're still playing RPG and using stats, skills checks.
No combat system = No RPG.
>"VN masquerading as an RPG" is RPG indeed. Even if you don't like it. Planescape is the same VN.
Planescape has the 3 criterias

Combat
Choice&Consequence
Builds

I told you, not one person has been able to refute those 3 criterias yet. Disco Elysium will never be an RPG you commie cuck
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>>2276941
TTRPG are better for anything. Even for sex.
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>>2276943
ultima 1, 2, 3
wizardry 1, 2, 3
dungeon master series
daggerfall (technically)
arena
lands of lore
ultima underworld
legends of valor
eye of beholder
first might and magic
choice and consequence is something that didn't exist until ultima 4
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>>2276978
>Ultima 1,2,3
Not only are every Ultima pre 4 complete dogshit, they were never RPGs and you will never see them on any "greatest RPGs of all time" lists. In fact, if you manage to find yourself in any Ultima forums, just ask them yourselves "what's a good starting point in the series" and everyone will say either skip to 4 or 7 (even though Underworld is better than both).
>Wizarddry 1,2,3
See above.
>Dungeon master series
Never played this and i'm not gonna bother googling it
>Daggerfall
Lmao, no not technically. This is outright bullshit
>Arena
Not an RPG
>Lands of Lore
Flat out BS. For example the highwayman/bandit right at the very start gives you 3 options of dealing with him (give him money, lie to him or fight him). It's an archaic choice&consequence, but it exists nonetheless.
>ultima underworld
I would unironically argue that it isn't an RPG. This is closer to Dark Souls/Arena even if it is my favorite Ultima game.

But even with my opinion removed, it does have choice&consequence (Vernix for example has many ways for you to extract information out of him) as well as many other dialogue moments that give you numerous dialogue options (grey goblins etc).
>legends of valor
Numerous ways to make money, the alien spirit that possesses you is a form of choice&consequence (actually better to not get cured) etc.
>eye of the beholder
Dungeon crawler like Dark Souls, not an RPG
>first might and magic
Never actually played the first one so no idea.

And just to be clear, I don't consider any of the games you listed actual RPGs, but my comments are merely showing that even at THIS extreme of listing insanely own games before the RPG genre even became properly defined, my 3 criterias still hold true outside of the games you listed that I never played (think there were 2?)

So yea, my 3 criterias still remain the best and most simple way to define an RPG game.
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>>2276837
So Dark Souls does qualify as an RPG then:
>1. Some form of combat system: Y
>2. Some form of Choice & Consequence: Y
>3. Some form of builds/class system: Y
Nice.
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>>2277531
Yes
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>>2264631
Does that mean he has finally became a man?
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>>2277059
>I would unironically argue that it isn't an RPG. This is closer to Dark Souls/Arena even if it is my favorite Ultima game.
>I don't consider any of the games you listed actual RPGs
Why? They're clearly RPG. CRPGs actually. In the end of 80s and beginning of 90s everything was called RPG to sell games. RPG genre not only was "defined" but fucked up.

And let's talk about Daggerfall. Daggerfall is giant sandbox dungeon crawling simulator with shit tons of gear, dynamic world and heavy character building+game mechanics. 95% of Daggerfall content is randomly generated. And so choice/consequence here are not actually existent. Yeah you have different endings but that's it. One side disliked Daggerfall because you're not forced to read a book with deep thought-provoking character stories. The other side liked Daggerfall because of freedom to roleplay how you want. Anon above said "It's not a role-playing game if it exists all in your head", but the core of roleplaying is imagination. You don't need TTRPG to play TTRPG IRL after all. You can larp as lizard working for Morag Tong and dreaming of sucking Princess Morgiah's dick.
tl;dr 3 criterias are flawed and no different from calling Ace Combat and DCS games flight sims. I believe using "sub-genres" is better way to deal with "what is RPG and what is not". CRPG, ADRPG, maybe AADRPG etc
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>>2278033
>Morag Tong
shiet, brotherhood
>>
Game I like with RPG elements = RPG
Game I dislike with RPG elements = Not An RPG
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>>2278033
>Why? They're clearly RPG
They really aren't and that's the reason not one modern day RPG emulates them. It's just a disingenuous argument, pulling shit from the very start of gaming before genres were properly defined.

And like I said before, the only way my 3 criterias start to fall apart (and I already established even then they don't, most of the games you listed have some form, no matter how archaic due to the nature of the dated medium the game was on, of choice and consequence) is when you pull these disingenuous arguments like "d-d-dude, fucking Bilbos dinner bash from 1981 didn't have choice and consequence and it's an RPG!"

Like no, there's a reason nobody talks about the first 3 Ultimas outside of some autistic boomer/zoomer who pretends that they enjoyed it. There's a reason Ultima progressed the way it did to incorporate choice&consequence.

Those 3 pillars are the best 3 pillars for RPG. And if the only argument you have is going back to Pacman days to find me some miscategorized """RPG"""", then yea, i'm thinking that's not a strong argument.

> And so choice/consequence here are not actually existent.
That's just flat out wrong, randomly generated has nothing to do with the ability/inability to have choices&consequences.

Many of the quests/guilds have numerous choices you can take in order to achieve a goal. Just stop arguing this one, you already have easier to argue examples within that very series like Arena.

For example, based on the factions you join you're guaranteed locked out of at least one temple/faction. That right there is a form of choice&consequence. You also have factions that will hate you based on your alliegance with other groups. Arguing this for Daggerfall, only further proves that you're not arguing in good faith.
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>>2278425
>that's the reason not one modern day RPG emulates them
ad populum, whether or not something emulates a thing or not doesn't change its designation.
>there's a reason nobody talks about the first 3 Ultimas outside of some autistic boomer/zoomer who pretends that they enjoyed it
More ad populum
>Those 3 pillars are the best 3 pillars for RPG
Circular reasoning
inb4 anon getting triggered by logical fallacies
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>>2278451
>ad populum, whether or not something emulates a thing or not doesn't change its designation.
And there we go "logical fallacy". You're not arguing in good faith, you're nitpicking and unironically using a logical fallacy yourself in the form of an argument from authority "dude, the developers called those games RPGs, so they're RPGs".

Let's stop with the "it's my first day arguing on 4chan" tier tactics, and argue the points themselves. I understand that you acknowledge that your argument is fleeting, but let's not go down this typical road.
>Circular reasoning
>inb4
>triggered
>logical fallacies
Yikes
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>>2264852
This. Its not that deep
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>>2278472
Inafter anon getting triggered by logical fallacies and spamming more fallacies like strawmanning
>arguing the points
You don't have any lol, it's clear you suffer from American education "everything I say is an argument even if it's completely nonsensical" standards
>>
>>2278568
Ok, I see this conversation is over now that you've resorted to every single buzzword you can imagine.

I accept your concession
>>
>>2278579
>Shit, I've got no other arguments now that anon's disarmed me, better use that trendy 'concession' meme after calling anon out on buzzwords like a hypocritical child
You belong on /v/
>>
>>2278580
I accept your concession
>>
>>2278593
>Oh no, he's got me, better repeat the same thing over and over again like a literal five year old
I feel sorry for your parents. This thread is shit so I'll keep feeding you so it can hit the bump limit faster.
>>
>>2278602
I already accepted your concession bro
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>>2276943
>Combat
>Choice&Consequence
>Builds
And utterly fails at at two of these. There is only one build to play in PT - max out Wisdom and Intelligence, put rest to Charisma and play a mage. Anything else is just playing the game wrong.
>>
>>2278632
Sure thing, anon.
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>>2276837
>Fifa
And why would Fifa not be an RPG? You are playing role of sports team coach, no?
>>
>>2276943
>No combat system = No RPG.
Why?
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>>2278640
Every game must be inherently violent. "Play" originated with baby animals practicing hunting and self-defense.
As such, any videogame must not only have have violence as it's primary focus, but must also simulate in such a way that it tests player's skill. Role-playing software such as Disco Elysium might be a RP, but it is not G.
>>
>>2278659
What about games that don't stimulate violence as their primary focus? Unless you're defining 'violence' as any kind of competitive behaviour.
If you aren't, what about the fact that most non-video games aren't inherently violent? Sports, boardgames, card games, etc.
>>
>>2278632
Doesn't matter, doesn't need to succeed to still have them and be an RPG.
>>
>>2278639
>no combat system
Right there, didn't meet my objectively correct 3 criterias
>>2278669
>don't stimulate violence as their primary focus
Doesn't matter as long as they have a combat system in place.

No combat system = Not an RPG

These 3 criterias are exactly made to stop faggots like you from murkying the waters because you're low life retards who have nothing better to do than just make bad faith arguments whenever this topic is brought up
>>
>>2278623
a
>>
>>2278659
>>2278721
ITG moment
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>>2277059
Make no sense.
>Dungeon crawler like Dark Souls, not an RPG
See >>2277531
Dark Souls is RPG.
Everyone call Disco Elysium RPG. And DE will be in the "greatest RPGs of all time" lists in the future if not already. Inspired by Planescape and based on creator's own TTRPG setting DE is defining RPG right now.
>>
>>2278721
>Doesn't matter as long as they have a combat system in place.
>No combat system = Not an RPG
That's circular reasoning though, you still didn't give a reason why a combat system is necessary to be an RPG. Only that faff about 'every game must be inherently violent', which glosses over basically all games that don't involve violence.
>>
>>2278746
No combat system = Not an RPG. End of discussion.
>>
>>2278721
>Doesn't matter as long as they have a combat system in place.
Anon, you just said >>2278659
>any videogame must not only have have violence as it's primary focus
I agree with you about RPGs needing some form of combat system, but you outright said it needs violence, so don't backtrack with "doesn't matter"s

The problem is people think someone saying Game They Like isn't an RPG is an insult. It's not. You might like capuchins, but if someone says it's not an ape that doesn't mean they're saying it's shit, it's just not an ape. There's nothing wrong with Game You Like not being an RPG and without combat, be it violent combat, or just a stylized way of showing a debate as a combat between the debators, a game is not an RPG.
>>
>>2278749
Why?
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>>2278754
2+2=4
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>>2278746
Because there has not been nearly enough combatless RPGs made to establish it as a subgenre of RPG.
If you show me a game where you're not stabbing your enemies to death but are hugging them till they become peaceful instead, then it's still a stylized combat. It's two people squaring off and putting their dodge and grappling abilities to the test against each other.
>>
>>2278756
We're not talking about mathematics though, we're talking about classification.
>>2278757
What if you're arguing with them? Does that not count as combat as well? And in that case, why wouldn't the arguments in DE be considered a form of combat system?
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>>2278777
>What if you're arguing with them?
You mean like I stated here?>>2278751
>be it violent combat, or just a stylized way of showing a debate as a combat between the debators
>>
>>2278749
>>2278749
>>2278756
Stop replying to the "circular reasoning" faggot, I tried having a good discussion with him earlier and then he just dropped 3 buzzwords on me instead of tackling the actual argument.

Ignore him
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>>2278751
>Anon, you just said
Wasn't my comment
>I agree with you about RPGs needing some form of combat system, but you outright said it needs violence, so don't backtrack with "doesn't matter"s
See above

My comment:
>>2278721
>>
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Fallen London is RPG and Interactive Fiction in the same time.
>>
>RPGs need combat
Sort of. RPGs always feature combat because combat is the most engaging form of conflict and all stories need conflict in order to be stories. What RPGs really need is a DM + 2 players minimum. Now that's something that really gets overlooked all the time.
>>
>>2278823
>Sort of.
Nope, it does. Full stop.


Your shitty VNs will never be an RPG
>>
>>2278855
>Your shitty VNs will never be an RPG
Agree. Planescape, BG1/2, NWN, VtMB, Kingmaker and other garbage are not RPGs. Go read a book. I'm playing RPGs for freedom and mechanical depth. Wizardry, TES, Dwarf Fortress adventure mode - real deal.
>>
>>2278855
So if you play as a diplomatic pacifist and the game allows it, it's not an RPG anymore?
>>
>>2278892
You're not true RPG Gamer
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>>2278894
Answer the question. Is D&D no longer an RPG for the party member who is playing a diplomatic pacifist?
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>>2278803
>Anon goes schizophrenic and just thinks all the people who disagree with his autistic takes are the same
Classic /v/ moments
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>>2278899
This kills the combatfag, though he'll never admit it and likely he'll become a lolcow for this board in due time. Screencapping to buttfuck him in the ass in the future though.
>>
>>2278717
And I can flap my hands in the air, but that doesn't make me a bird.
>>
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>>2278976
Bro, you can be anything in 2021.
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>>2276943
Planscape Torment has just Choices&Consequences, it utterly fails at combat and character building.
DE has great Choices and Character Building, making it more of an RPG than PT.
>>
>>2278869
1. Combat
2. Combat
3. Combat
4. Combat
5. Combat

All RPGs. Keep coping disco elysium commie kike
>>2278892
is there an option to engage in combat? If so yes. If not, no.
>>
>>2277059
>vidya RPGs do not exist
>>
>>2278869
>Wizardry, TES, Dwarf Fortress adventure mode
> Planescape, BG1/2, NWN, VtMB, Kingmaker and other garbage are not RPGs

These are all RPGs and all have combat.
>>
>>2279017
>is there an option to engage in combat?
The more important question would really be "is there an option to NOT engage in combat?" Being forced to engage in a certain way goes against what RPGs are about.
>>
>>2279017
1. Garbage
2. Garbage
3. Garbage
4. Garbage
5. Garbage

VNs with garbage combat. Planescape and BG2 have ~3.7 mb script. This is the size of LotR. Dilate VN tranny and read a book.
>>
>>2276837
>1. Some form of combat system
Yes.
>2. Some form of Choice & Consequence
No.
>3. Some form of builds/class system
Yes.
>>
>>2264615
I like Witcher but agree that it is not an RPG, even the first game.

I agree that there are some JRPGs that can be considered RPGs, but most of them are not.
>>
>>2279026
>The more important question would really be "is there an option to NOT engage in combat?"
Nope.

If the game doesn't have a combat system, it's not an RPG. Next!
>>2279029
Your tranny Disco Elysium will never be an RPG cope
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>>2279063
>If the game doesn't have a combat system, it's not an RPG.
Debunked until this question is answered >>2278899
>>
>>2279073
>>2278899
D&D has a combat system in place. Choosing to avoid it is an option, the combat system still exists. You have debunked nothing.

No combat system = No RPG

That's like saying "if I speedrun this action game without attacking anyone and running past everyone, is it not an action game". The combat foundation remains, that's the key point.

Cope tranny elsiyum commy
>>
>>2279083
>You have debunked nothing.
What's been debunked is the silly notion that combat, and not conflict, is what is essential to an RPG.
>>
>>2279091
Not a silly notion. Like I said right here:
>>>2278721
>These 3 criterias are exactly made to stop faggots like you from murkying the waters because you're low life retards who have nothing better to do than just make bad faith arguments whenever this topic is brought up

Combat is the central piece. Conflict is a vague abstract term that is purely there so you can shoehorn whatever fucking tranny VN you want into the RPG genre. This is all you faggots do, overcomplicate shit as they pertain to video games because you're too low IQ to tackle actual complicated topics of importance.

Pathetic.

1. Combat
2. Choice & Consequence
3. Builds/Class system

This is it. This is all it will ever be. Now cope
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>>2279124
>Combat is the central piece
Then how come someone can play D&D and never engage in combat? Yet what no one can avoid in a party is CONFLICT. Obviously it's not combat, but conflict, that's more important.

>This is all you faggots do
I don't even know who you're talking about. I barely come to this board.
>>
>>2279206
>Then how come someone can play D&D and never engage in combat
Because combat exists in D&D.

We're gonna go in circles, you're intentionally trying to make an extremely simple concept overcomplicated for the sake of feeling like you've participated in the discussion. Your hilariously god awful logic of "what if somebody plays a pacifist" is extremely telling to your IQ level.

What if I exclusively load up Tekken and refuse to throw an attack? Is Tekken not a fighting game anymore? It's pure low IQ reasoning and the reasoning itself isn't why you're low IQ, the reason you're low IQ is because you keep repeating this garbage "argument" because you unironically think it's a "gotcha" moment to my 3 criteria concept. It's really simple bud.

1. Combat
2. Choice&Consequence
3. Builds/Class system

Just because someone choose not to engage in the combat system doesn't mean it doesn't exist the same way doing a fucking Dark Souls SL1 run doesn't somehow mean the game doesn't fucking have builds you dumb monkey.
>>
>>2279228
>Just because someone choose not to engage in the combat system doesn't mean it doesn't exist
I'm not arguing that combat doesn't exist in D&D. I'm arguing that combat isn't an essential activity for a role-playing game. If someone can play D&D and not engage in any combat, then you have no basis for asserting that combat is essential to RPGs. The essential element is conflict, because that's what nobody who plays D&D can avoid. The one who can't understand this very simple line of thought is the monkey, btw.
>>
>>2279304
>I'm arguing that combat isn't an essential activity for a role-playing game.
Its existence is. Didn't bother to read the rest of your cope, Disco Elysium will always be a VN, commiefag


1. Combat
2. Choice&Consequence
3. Builds/Class system

If your game doesn't have that, then it's not an RPG.
>>
>>2279449
>Its existence is
Nope. Conflict needs to be there, but combat doesn't.
>>
>>2279457
Yep.
1. Combat
2. Choice&Consequence
3. Builds/Class system

If your game doesn't have that, then it's not an RPG.
>>
>>2279462
Repeating yourself isn't an argument, retard. If someone can play D&D and never engage in combat then it's an OPTIONAL element in the game.
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>>2279470
>Players are optional
You'd be surprised how many aspergers never figure that out.
>>
>>2279470
>optional element
Still an element.

If your game does not have:
1. Combat
2. Choice&Consequence
3. Builds/Class system

Then it's not an RPG. Cope
>>
>>2279581
If you're going to include an optional element on your essentials list then you'll have to include the other ones, like:

1. Combat
2. Choice&Consequence
3. Builds/Class system
4. Dialogue
5. Stealth
6. Magic/Psi
7. Survival

etc.
>>
>>2279124
>stop faggots like you from murkying the waters
No. It's faggots like YOU who murky the waters by seething about how RPGs like Skyrim, Witcher, Ultima, and Wizardry are not actually RPGs despite general consensus being that they are.
>>
How does it feel on the lonely road to lolcowdom, combatfag? We're the internet hate machine in this bitch, we're going to stalk you IRL and reveal your nudes to your parents while you shove figurines up your ass.





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