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Do we agree on the following?
>good entry points that are fairly representative of what SaGa is about (non-linear, open world, complex mechanics)
Romancing 3
Frontier 1
Last Remnant
Scarlet Grace
>even more accessible entry points, but consequently more linear than the aforementioned games
SaGa 1 WonderSwan
SaGa 2 DS
SaGa 3 DS
Frontier 2
>not recommended for newcomers due to highly complex/confusing mechanics. Recommended for advanced players only or those particularly seeking a challenge
Minstrel Song
Romancing 2
Unlimited
>tangentially related games that aren't actually SaGa, but might appeal to you if you like SaGa
Final Fantasy 2 (pretty much the prototype SaGa game)
Legend of Mana (Kawazu worked on this with Mana's creator. Basically SaGa if it were an ARPG)
Wild Card (card-based RPG made by Kawazu and all the artwork is by the guy that does all the art for the Ivalice games, Bravely Default, and Nier Automata. Unfortunately, it's a super obscure Japan-exclusive WonderSwan game with no translation patch)
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles series (made by Kawazu, but doesn't really share much design philosophy with SaGa. 3D ARPGs, usually with a focus on multiplayer)
Legend of Legacy (made by ex-SaGa staff)
Alliance Alive (spiritual successor to Legend of Legacy)
Metal Max/Metal Saga series (not affiliated with Kawazu at all, but pretty much shares a similar design philosophy with SaGa, with an emphasis on non-linearity. Post-apocalyptic setting. Basically the Fallout to SaGa's TES)
Uncharted Waters series (not affiliated with Kawazu at all, but shares similar non-linear design philosophy. You play as an explorer, or pirate, or privateer, or trader, or treasure hunter sailing around the world during the 1500s, discovering new parts of the world.)
Genius of Sappheiros (basically a Touhou SaGa game)
Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (mostly listed here just because, much like Unlimited SaGa, it completely filtered journalists and casuals despite being a good game)
>>
Shit, I forgot to put "SaGa thread" in the subject line.
>>
>>2246521
That quote is so retarded I doubt it was said by a real person. Someone "giving up" on a game means they got bored, that's not something different.
>>
>>2246544
You’ve never dropped a game out of frustration, and not boredom?
>>
>>2246544
Not an RPG example, but what about the urban legend that Itagaki (creator of modern Ninja Gaiden) being told by his testers during the development of the first one on Xbox that the game was too hard, and him responding "Good. Make it even harder"?
>>
>>2246544
cope
>>
>>2246544
git gud
>>
>>2246544
>Someone "giving up" on a game means they got bored
replace "giving up" with ragequitting then
>>
I liked Genius of Sappheiros and I've heard a multitude of good things about the Romancing SaGa games.
Is there any particular reason why the first one is not on the list, though? I don't mind starting on the third and the moving to the second, but still.
>>
>>2246657
Minstrel Song is the remake of Romancing SaGa 1. The original Super Nintendo version was a rushed, buggy, broken game, and it's missing content. Minstrel Song fixed the game, added the missing content, and upgraded the graphics.
>>
>>2246554
Despite not liking the game, I like the Borderlands example of this kind of situation a lot because it goes into detail about how making something harder can make for a better experience (without resorting to obvious "gitgud" arguments).

Basically during testing a lot of people were complaining that a certain area, which a player had to pass through many times during the game, had too many enemies. In response they added more enemies to that area, and the complaints went away. The reasoning? In the first instance, the players were just trying to get through the area as quickly as possible, because it was something they had already seen multiple times and they just wanted to get to where they needed to be, so having to stop and fight enemies was seen as an unwelcome hindrance. Making the area harder meant that players no longer treated it as an area you need to pass through as quickly as possible, but rather a proper combat zone. So rather than trying to autopilot trough it and getting mad when they got wrecked, they focused on beating the enemies and got a better (combat) experience.
>>
I think romancing saga 2 is a good entry point: it's easy to figure out where to go, the battle mechanics are relatively simple, and the difficulty level is low / the game is very forgiving.
>>
>>2246521
Wtf there's a Wonderswan version of Final Fantasy Legends and there's an English translation too? God damn that game looks sexy af on that system
>>
>>2247419
The major QoL improvement to the WonderSwan version is that it shows you what your monster will change into from eating meat before you actually commit to eating the meat, so changing your monster is no longer an exercise in trial and error.
>>
>>2246790
>rs2
>the difficulty is low
the people who hang out in these threads have been playing saga games for so long they've completely forgotten what it was like to play their first saga game
>>
>Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (mostly listed here just because, much like Unlimited SaGa, it completely filtered journalists and casuals despite being a good game)
Based on that, I'd also add Grandia Xtreme to the list.
>>
I know it's not affiliated with Kawazu, but I heard Crimson Shroud on the 3DS has a heavy Unlimited SaGa vibe of being basically a tabletop RPG. And it's made by Matsuno of Ogre Battle/Tactics Ogre and Ivalice fame.
Has anyone that has played both Unlimited SaGa and Crimson Shroud comment on the similarities and differences between the two?
>>
>>2246521
>>2247595
Dragon Quarter actually kind of got good reviews
>>
So, is Kawazu currently working on anything?
>>
>>2247703
They're not really similar aside from being homages to tabletop style gaming. Both are good though, don't get me wrong.
>>
>>2248026
I don't think they've outright said so, but it's been heavily hinted that a new SaGa is at the very least in the early stages. Plus they're eventually planning to remaster SF2 and Unlimited.
>>
>>2248091
You think they'd rather do a remastered Minstrel Song, or do Romancing SaGa 1 2D style like 2&3's remaster? Not sure which would be more work for them
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>>2248318
They've supposedly teased a possible pixel remake along the lines of the recent FFs, but don't quote me on that.
>>
>>2246521
I have forgotten many games I played, but I can remember every single game that I've played that was so frustrating I dropped it.
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>>2248592
How many of those were SaGa games?
>>
>>2246521
I never played any of those games but I agree with you because you seem to know your stuff
>>
What's better: Last Remnant or Scarlet Grace?
>>
>>2246790
I think it's a better and easier entry point than RS3 or SF.

>>2247576
I don't think anyone struggles to get into the SaGa series because of the combat difficulty. People have a hard time figuring out how progression works, which can make the games feel aimless. Depending on your character choice, in some entries you can basically end up just being dumped into the middle of the world after a short intro with no explicit goals to work towards. That's fine once you have a handle on how the game flow works and what is generally expected of the player, but it can be a rough introduction if you're used to more traditional JRPGs.

RS2 gives the player both a clear over-arching goal and advice regarding how to approach it, which makes it a lot more approachable.
>>
>>2246521
Based Ancient and Wise Japanese man.
>>
what would be the best saga game for me if i loved everything about the legend of legacy but couldn't get into alliance alive?
>>
>>2246521
Scarlet Grace is probably not a good entry point.
>>2248636
That is an impossible question. They are chasing very different ideals. I love them both.
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>>2248636
Scarlet Grace is the only game in the series where every design decision makes sense to me.
Last Remnant is the opposite
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>>2248636
As usual, they're too different to be compared, in fact they might very well be the opposite of each other.
I prefer Scarlet Grace by a long shot though, TLR has some great characters and it introduced very interesting concepts like Morale mechanics, but it also added a lot of out of plac junk and ultimately lacks too many crucial things I like about SaGa, love my nigga Jorgen and my literal nigga Jaeger though.
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>>2249127
Minstrel Song
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>>2248613
All three from the Romancing games, but that might be as much the translation as much as the gameplay. I almost dropped SaGa Frontier, but I liked the story enough to muscle through it.
>>
>>2249303
Maybe try Frontier 2. It's a bit more streamlined compared to the other games.
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>>2246521
Saga is so fucking shit
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>>2249314
How do you figure?
>>
>>2249314
Incorrect.
>>
Asking it here: Is it normal to trigger the Last Emperor after defeating 4 of the Seven Heroes? (Not counting the first fight with Kzinssie since he is basically a tutorial battle)
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>>2246790
>Romancing SaGa 2
>good entry point
Objectively not. Weird mechanics compared to other JRPGs.
>>
>>2246554
People complained about AoD being too hard and being Filtered, so Victor released Dungeon Rats which filtered even more people.
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>>2248770
>I don't think anyone struggles to get into the SaGa series because of the combat difficulty.
People who play other JRPGs will often compare and say SaGa battles are harder. They are right, it sure is but that isn't SaGa's problem. It is a problem with the genre handholding players and being really lazy with their battle systems.
>>
I really need to stop playing the gacha
someone help me
at least I haven't spent a single penny on it
but I can't keep feeling like if it does well we'll get remakes and steam ports
>>
>>2249397
Become the whale you always wanted to be.
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>>2249397
don't do it anon! remember the ones who have already fallen
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>>2249414
The difference is, BoF6 was legitimately a piece of shit. Not that other anon, and I haven't played the SaGa gacha, but I hear it's actually a pretty decent for gachashit.
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Play her game
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>>2249311
I've played Frontier 2 and Unlimited. I didn't even think of dropping either of them.
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>>2249499
Interesting. Considering Unlimited's reputation as one of the most arcane games ever made, I would've assumed you'd hate it considering you dropped all the Romancing games and nearly dropped Frontier 1. What did you like about Unlimited? What did you dislike about Frontier 1 and the Romancing games?
>>
December looms closer...
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>>2249429
Genshin Impact is also a great game. But do you want EVERY game to become Genshin?
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>>2249518
As I said earlier, The Romancing games where impenetrable due to the translation patches of the time. I played Unlimited a good decade later and am just a more patient person as an old man.
What little story Romancing 1 had was fun and I liked the characters. But I wish the story was told better and via a more robust main questline. The fact that the main questline felt like a series of sidequests had me asking myself why wasn't I just collecting bear asses in FF11.
For Unlimited, it was a mess of a game. But I was older and more patient. Even though the story is schizophrenic even on a single character's run, I just still kept playing. Also, I didn't hate the graphics nearly as much as people tell me I should.
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>>2249414
Honestly, if you're a fan of the series and can pass on some typical Gacha bullshit like enemies being HP sponges and the game mechanics being heavily modified for the format, Re:Universe is a pretty good game, the fanservice is on point, the battle choreography is fantastic and so are the sprite art and music.
Its only weak point is that they're too biased towards RS3 reps and a couple of key reps from other games, but other than that it's a pretty decent game, generous too since you can be "meta" and never spend a dime on anything.
>>
>>2246657
>Is there any particular reason why the first one is not on the list, though?
Not OP, but maybe he counts Minstrel Song as RS1 because it is a remake. Regardless, it is not really a good idea to mix them up because both games are considerably different.
I love both the original and the remake separately.
>>
>>2251174
RS1 Super Nintendo is literally unfinished, and the WonderSwan port that fixes it doesn't have a translation. Minstrel Song is an objective improvement.
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>>2249464
I still will never understand why they delisted this from Steam
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>>2252800
>Go buy the remake instead!
>It's not available on PC? Sounds like a you problem, senpai.
>>
>>2251174
I wish there was a mod for MS that replaces the new character designs with the originals.
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>>2252829
They could've easily just released the remaster on PC, and even discounted it for owners of the old version.
>>
Would Minstrel Song have been received better if it had come out before Unlimited? Like, do you think Unlimited's negative reception carried over to Minstrel Song?
>>
>>2254191
>reception
I think nothing of it.
However, I love Minstrel Song but I keep thinking it would be good to have a remaster of RS1 like we got for 2 and 3. Conversely, I want 2 and 3 to get their own "Minstrel Song" treatment.
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>>2246521
>Minstrel Song
I'm just amazed this hasn't been re-released or ported in some capacity. I mean, at least for PS4 or PS5 with eventual PC down the line.
>>
>>2254191
No, it would have been received better if it had actual budget to make it look better however, and if it was actually marketed.
Same thing for the DS remakes, they sold poorly mostly because hardly anyone knew they were a thing, because lolnoads.
People forget that after the first SaGa Frontier the series started plunging straight into the dark ages era where Square stopped pretending they cared and explicitly left the series out there to die, which was also made worse by staff members leaving, including the bulk of the Mana team which included Ishii.
And it's not like they're even hiding it, just look at how in the official portal site the 2002-2012 decade is called quite literally Unlimited Purgatory
https://www.jp.square-enix.com/saga_portal/chronicle/index.html
Surely Unlimited has its own faults and is definitely no for the average player, but Unlimited supposedly killing the series is a total myth, both Unlimited and Minstrel Song were (some of the many) victims of Square's usual incompetence.
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Has Kawazu ever made a bad game?
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>>2254486
I know. I'm so thankful for emulators.
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>>2254772
No.
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>>2254772
>>2254789
Plebs will say FF2 and Unlimited SaGa.
>>
>>2254772
Who is this dashing masked man?
>>
>>2254850
The undisputed GOAT JRPG dev
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>>2254772
I've played most of the stuff he's worked on or produced and he's never made an outright bad game so far, but some of his side projects like Rudra no Hihou are pretty mediocre and forgettable, or heavily flawed in some ways, which is normal for somebody with a portfolio that big, you can't work on 30+ games and always end up with something amazing, nobody does that.
If I have to be overly critical on some of the games he produced I'd say Tactics Advance 2 was a hot mess and probably the worst thing with his name on box, but he was just the executive producer for that afaik, so I can't really complain.
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>>2254748
>FFVIII started cucking development for frontier 1 and 2
outside of that square basically ignored EVERYTHING that wasnt named FF and KH, not just saga.and this continue up until the shit with XV
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>>2246675
>Basically during testing a lot of people were complaining that a certain area, which a player had to pass through many times during the game, had too many enemies. In response they added more enemies to that area, and the complaints went away. The reasoning? In the first instance, the players were just trying to get through the area as quickly as possible, because it was something they had already seen multiple times and they just wanted to get to where they needed to be, so having to stop and fight enemies was seen as an unwelcome hindrance. Making the area harder meant that players no longer treated it as an area you need to pass through as quickly as possible, but rather a proper combat zone. So rather than trying to autopilot trough it and getting mad when they got wrecked, they focused on beating the enemies and got a better (combat) experience.
That is actually pretty interesting, I appreciate the info there anon. Not sure why, but SaGa generals seems to have a healthy amount of game development discussion and I enjoy it.
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>>2255384
It's kind of inevitable since SaGa's overwhelmingly focused on every possible level of mechanics, including narrative mechanics, it's good to talk about how different series handle things.
And talking about narrative mechanics for a change, I really, really liked how the small character bio quotes in Scarlet Grace change when you get to the last boss so everyone has something new and interesting to say, I hope this is something that will stay in future games and get elaborated upon, it would be fun to have characters change their bio quotes dynamically depending on event chains, kind of how the threads of fate system in SaGa 2 DS changes party dialogues throughout the game as you develop your characters, that's another thing I wish to see again.
>>
I know he didn't really serve a direct developer role for these, but I feel like the Ivalice games are worth mentioning as tangentially related, since Kawazu served as executive producer on those.
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>>2256435
Really wish we could get an Ivalice game in the SaGa format of free scenario.
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>>2246521
>Do we agree on the following?
You couldn't get this site to agree on the sky being blue.
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>>2256761
The sky isn't blue, you dumb nigger.
>>
>>2256435
Yeah, you can kind of see how he might have had some minor influence on those since the Tactics Advance games have LoM's landplacing, albeit simplified, but we really don't know how much he actually did since he was just the executive producer at the end of the day.
He was called to salvage the sinking ship that was FFXII but he said he didn't do much that wasn't already in the design documents, Revenant Wings was an unexpected dip into the RTS genre but I wonder just how much he actually did for those games outside of keeping an eye on the actual teams as the exec, they don't really have his touch.
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>>2256761
It's looking pretty fucking grey right now my man.
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>>2256610
Kawazu should recruit Matsuno for his next project
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>>2259098
I get the feeling that matsunos disagreements with the bosses was greater than his back injury implied
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>>2246521
Yeah that's fair. Eventually they might pick-up again to retry and do better.
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>>2259098
>Matsuno, who always worked on hard class based games with orthodox mechanics and is obsessed with longwinded, grandiose story writing and theatrical, character focused drama
>Kawazu, who always tried to break away from the mold, enjoys classless systems and many other experimental mechanics and values mechanics, freedom and autistic worldbuilding with minimalistic, implicit storytelling over anything else
I don't know man, the only match worse than this would be forcing Kawazu to work with Yoko Taro.
And didn't Matsuno say he's semi-retired nowadays? I'd rather have him work with Murayama if I could choose.
>>
>>2246521
>Uncharted Waters
Yooo Uncharted Waters is the shit
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>>2248770
>I don't think anyone struggles to get into the SaGa series because of the combat difficulty.
I disagree vehemently.
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>>2259915
Kawazu has done pseudo-class systems before
>>
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Monsters in SaGa Frontier
>constantly slapping fights and carrying the team throughout midgame
>still strong end game if you farm for specific forms

Monsters in SaGa 1 and 2
>constant disappointment
>either use a guide or your team will constantly be gimped
>best monsters are still lackluster compared to the other races

God I love SaGa Frontier. Bring back the race mechanic Kawazu.
>>
>>2261134
Monsters in Frontier are the second strongest race in the early game but quickly plummet to the weakest race by the end of the game.
SaGa 1/2 monsters on the other hand can break the game by abusing boss meat drops, Frontier monsters being actually balanced can't do that since they need to hunt for skills in order to get actually good forms early on, there's really not a lot of difference and both are lackluster compared to other races when it comes to endgame and minmaxing potential.
>>
>>2261943
What's the strongest race? I find monsters being the best for early and mid game, no other race touches them unless you abuse gold ingots or use the junk shop glitch. Humans just develop too slowly stats, obtaining skills, and obtaining items. Robots are super easy to power up but you need the items, and you just don't get many mystics and they are dependent upon monsters you have access to. Sure monsters need certain monsters to absorb certain skills, but you can easily get a shrieker, skelesaurus, trisaur, among possibly some other great ones.

I totally agree with the end game. You really need to know the game to not make skill acquisition not a grind, and a newbie won't know where to get all the skills. Then the monster forms just aren't anywhere as good as a fully kitted robot or human. But getting something like a shrieker within the first 30~60 minutes is insane since it can hang out even for the final bosses since it has middling HP, insane resistances, and other good stats all around and it will simply be better than your whole team.

Monsters in the Gameboy games you really didn't need to delve into how the mechanics worked. It was a bit less opaque since you knew if you at emeat you transformed, and the manual hinted that strong monster meat would help you access strong forms. While I don't know the meat progression paths, I can still get some very powerful monsters that can carry a party, and they are super cheap to maintain to boot. I think monsters weren't strong in the first worlds of both games, and then when you are at the end of those worlds you could get a good form or when you transition between the worlds.
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When will he announce Last Remnant 2?
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>>2263764
I swear it was teased a couple of years after the release of the TLR but it was never referenced again.
>>
>>2263764
After he releases Romancing SaGa 4.
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>>2248636
Last Remnant is more fun but has zero tooltips and explanations for everything. You NEED to use guides and datamines to know what you are doing.
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>>2263764
hopefully not before SaGa Frontier 3 or Unlimited SaGa 2
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>>2263925
Last Remnant was SaGa Frontier 3
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>>2263764
When Takai stops being Yoshi-P's slave and comes back to his SaGa family, it's Takai's IP after all.
Though it doesn't look like he cares about making a new game either, FFXIV getting those TLR costumes at least points out he hasn't forgotten.
>>
>>2263764
They really should retool TLR's battle system for a new Ogre game.
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>>2264476
A new Ogre Battle game with the SNES aesthetics and TLR battle system would be pretty great.
Wouldn't even be hard to do since the two share a lot of common design elements when it comes to the battle system, and it would be a net gain to adopt the Commander Mode model of battle mechanics but with Ogre Battle variety in terms of units.
Imagine a beast Union with griffins and shit or the shenanigans with vampires and werewolves unions that change their behaviour depending on the time of day, just scrap the grossly overpowered Tarot mechanics altogether and you have a good recipe for a solid SRPG.
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>>2261134
>Bring back the race mechanic Kawazu.
Racial mechanics were ace. Easily the best thing about the series to me. Varying races that have exclusive skills along with varying methods to develop them is incredibly fun. It's just a shame it hasn't been touched upon since Frontier outside of utterly experimental growth mechanics like Unlimited.
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sigh, I'm done with Scarlet Grace. I got filtered. That fucking final boss gauntlet is just too much for me.

firebringer > savnok > firebringer > marigan > firebringer who spams hard hitting aoe spells

It's just too much for me. Thank you Kawazu for the challenging fights up to this point, but you went too far with that final encounter.
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>>2263741
>What's the strongest race?
Humans if you're willing to grind. I haven't played the remaster yet, but nothing in SaGa Frontier required any min maxing from what I remember. Game was fairly easy.
>>
>>2265342
I meant for the early game. I find humans being middling at the start of the game. Monsters can more easily morph into forms with good stats sooner than any humans could get decent skills coupled with good stats and equipment. Though overall with as much time needed to grind? Yeah, probably humans, just not the early game.
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>>2265340
I love SG, but something about the combat system filters me too much. I understand how it works it, but I can't really wrap my head around the positioning stuff; it never clicked for me.
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>>2265340
>he doesn't know about Taria or Balmaint's balls to the wall boss gauntlets
You haven't seen shit until you get things Urpina or Macha+Marigan tag team as part of the final boss gauntlet
Bring people who can use Protect techs and mind your weapon types, Marigan is easy to loop if you get how his summoning pattern works and use the right formations.
You can do it anon, you haven't even seen full power Firebringer.
>>
>>2246521
The Romancing SaGa 2 'Remaster' was the first game in the series I played/completed, and I don't see how it can be considered one of the more difficult releases. I've since beat SaGa 1 (wonderswan), and have started on SaGa 2 (DS). Honestly, would say that SaGa 2 is more involved when it comes to difficulty, and even then, the game is pretty easy.

I dabbled a bit in Unlimited SaGa years ago when a buddy of mine wanted me to check it out. Excited to get around to it eventually, but I can see how that, and Scarlet Grace (which is similar apparently) could be considered difficult -- Unlimited in particular, I've heard is difficult due to the very nature of battles essentially being 'over before they've started', which is a bit of a shame if that's true. Last Remnant is another game I've no experience with, but its reputation does precede itself when it comes to difficulty, idk.

Also, I'd say that mechanics in SaGa games aren't necessarily all that complex, moreso than they happen to be relatively obscured, and not too intuitive as to infer the nature of their underlying structure. As long as you're willing to roll with the punches, and even be a little observant and experimental, you can go about 'learning' what is hidden in its 'depths'.

I've not played Wild Card, Legend of Legacy, or Uncharted Waters, but I generally agree with every other recommendation posted
>>
>>2264484
all on grand overworld maps, with at least some modern RTS game mechanics when it comes to ordering units in a more 'meta' sense, with queued up commands, 'Gambit' esque AI scriptings that you can extensively customize to your liking, etc.
>>
>>2265978
Unlimited absolutely requires you to come up with a plan and execute it correctly, whether that be outside or inside the battle, and while some characters can actually grind until they can send dudes out one by one and crush the enemy, there are also characters who will never give you that opportunity to power up like Mythe and Kurt, and you have to think about formation and bench rotation and attack speeds to actually connect combos and not just get clobbered by stuns or LP damage

Last Remnant is really even better or maybe just almost as good, and the grind in TLR is one of my favorites, building that army just feels good
>>
>>2265978
Romancing SaGa 2 is "hard to learn, easy to master". Regardless of difficulty, the unusual mechanics make it not appropriate for most newcomers.
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>>2266227
at least as far as RS2 is concerned, I don't think there is all that much to learn. the only thing I was starved of 8 hours in was the complete lack of formations -- as I didn't know how the game awarded you new ones at the time. Otherwise, while the game doesn't drip feed you various aspects of its mechanics, you can pick up on them easily enough; to an extent that it seems as though they were drip fed all along -- despite being accessible from the start in some cases, and being capable to 'prepare' for in others.

>>2266190
good to know. after playing through RS2 first, I decided to go through the series in order (altho, playing what I consider to be the definitive versions of each game). Playing SaGa 2 in Retroarch is a bit annoying, so I'm considering just hacking my 3DS, and playing the fan patch on there; just worried about bricking my system. But the fact that I have Last Remnant and Unlimited SaGa to look forward to is nice (both games look real cool from the footage I've seen online).
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>>2265978
>The Romancing SaGa 2 'Remaster' was the first game in the series I played/completed, and I don't see how it can be considered one of the more difficult releases.
Because most of the other games are easier
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Why was Frontier 2 so much more linear compared to Frontier 1 and the Romancing games?
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>>2266385
yes, but this is in the context of OP stating that RS2 is not accessible to newcomers; not just about the difficulty in and of itself (where this gotcha of yours would make sense). I established it was the first title in the series that I have played, and there wasn't much to it. at best, I'm prolly like most people on this board, and am in the 75-89th percentile of skill when it comes to games of this particular subgenre (DRPGs, warpigs, and jarpigs).

ultimately, I would say that any 'block' someone has with playing a game like this just comes from some odd form of entitlement wherein everything must be explained and drip fed to you; where consequences that occur are not 'fair' if what leads up to them are not obvious (to you). also, pretty sure Scarlet Grace Unlimited, and some other titles are much harder. hell, as I've said, I found the remasters of SaGa 1/2 to be more 'difficult' than RS2. the combat in those games are much more involved when it comes to party customization, and enemy balancing is a tad more on the difficult side of things -- at least compared to RS2, who's combat is practically mindless.
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>>2246521
>Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (mostly listed here just because, much like Unlimited SaGa, it completely filtered journalists and casuals despite being a good game)
You just wanted an excuse to mention Dragon Quarter huh
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>>2268224
do you realize you made this reply 11 days after
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>>2267625
They wanted to try a narrative focused game for a change, and since they were working on both that and LoM they toned down the scope considerably, lots of things they came up with didn't make it past the early concept stage, like the entire kingdom of Na which is mostly just referenced throughout the story.
It's more nonlinear than you might realize though since you can proceed in whatever chronological order you want outside of certain requirements to unlock a couple of nodes, like going to Weissland, it's just the scenarios on their own that are pretty linear, but you can say the same thing about SF1 quests, or Unlimited's.
>>2268031
I wouldn't say RS2 is mindless at all, as much as there's tons of ways to trivialize it once you get how it works, just like the rest of the games.
I wouldn't recommend RS2 to a beginner because unlike other entries there's a lot more choices to make during progression and the main bosses, as much as they have lots of weak points by design, can be extremely demoralizing for newcomers.
In SaGa Frontier Asellus gets the most powerful sword in the game five minutes into her quest and from there the progression is easy, in RS2 players can get to Noel and end up being demolished because they don't know about Light Sword or haven't learned how to use things like counter bait formations effectively, or didn't get good loot from exploring, or they can randomly run into Dantarg when they go to the Saigo clan territory and get steamrolled, or they can run into the Spriggan in Cumberland and panic thinking they softlocked the game, there's lots of examples really.
As you said it's mostly a problem on the player's side, but that problem is precisely what prevents people from getting into the series, and you can say that for Unlimited or MS too, or any slightly hardcore game out there really, it's not about the game difficulty per se but rather how much a game tries to ease newcomers and more casual players in.
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>>2268251
so I don't think I every obtained Light Sword, I don't know what you are referring to in regards to counter bait formations -- still was capable of beating the game. I don't mean that to be snarky or anything -- I get that the game is by no means as straightforward as MOST jar/war-pigs. but I think the open ended nature of the game benefits the player more than it hinders it; to the point that the difficulty falls off a cliff. -- and the only way I can see players getting 'stuck' in terms of the game's difficulty, is if you ONLY ever button mash your way through the game. Meanwhile, the first and second SaGa titles (remastered ofc) offer a bit more difficulty DUE to the more linear nature the game provides. While I never got stuck on either of my playthroughs of the game, I know what options are available to me at any given point and time.

Case in point for RS2:
Noel was the last of the heroes I fought, so I wasn't blindsided there, BUT: I was severely underleveled when I first encountered Dantarg, and got my ass handed to him. Decided to fight him again, just to see what was up. Soon realized that the game allows you to escape that boss fight, so I started farming late game tech off of him; only after I noticed that the few hits I was getting in kept having lightbulbs appear over my doods, with skills of varying strengths being learnt. I *think* I may have even beaten him severely underleveled AFTER having learnt many of the powerful techs I had come to learn.
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>>2268335
No offense taken, and you're right on the money when it comes to that side of RS2
>Meanwhile, the first and second SaGa titles (remastered ofc) offer a bit more difficulty DUE to the more linear nature the game provides
Not really, you can use the same kind of tricks to bypass the entire early-mid game in SaGa 1/2, from boss meat farming to martial art division exploits with mechs etc., and even if you don't want use those tricks you can still do things like farming for Giant equipment in SaGa 2.
You perservered and stumbled on one of the many ways to abuse mechanics in RS2, the general experience isn't like that and it takes a quick glance at general videogame forums to see that.
The average player's mentality just isn't there, it was also one of the reasons the series got a bad rep in the west, most people just couldn't, and did not want to get past the initial learning curve.
The later games being that open is also what causes this, because the experience is very different from player to player, you got that epiphany because you chose to go after Dantarg after getting steamrolled, but that's YOUR experience, and you're the kind of person who doesn't get discouraged just because you ran into trouble once and also had the right idea in keeping your eyes open to what happens in a battle outside of looking at the number popups, most people simply do not think like that, especially for japanese games.

I can't say there's a definite, set in stone way to come up with a set of recs for the series because the player's mind is what ultimately makes the difference, people recommend entries based on what we perceive would be less potentially dangerous to newcomers' morale, as for each game's "objective difficulty" it's mostly farts to the wind because it all depends on your knowledge, every single one of them can be trivialized, like every game ever.
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>>2268395
I'm aware that there are possible exploits - altho I never encountered or thought of said exploits - for the original titles, but overall I would say that the means to pick up on these things is much more easily done in RS2 than meat farming and whatnot in the original games -- by evidence of the fact that I did not 'pick up' on said exploits in SaGa 1/2. I know what you are getting at, but you must think about what exploits are accessible to casual audiences, and I am of the opinion that the Dantarg experience I had is a much more shallow way of exploiting the game, while producing results that are severely effective in the longest of terms -- all the way to the final battles ffs.

>I can't say there's a definite, set in stone way to come up with a set of recs
I think the approach would have to be piecewise. I enjoy many subgenres of video game RPGs, and I would state the following -- while keeping in mind that the order I played SaGa titles is the following: RS2:R, SaGa1:R, & SaGa2:R (current).

First, I would say that Romancing SaGa 2 has the widest appeal of any game. Playing through it in 2019, I was forlorn that this game wasn't there to define my childhood, given the (juvenile admittedly) extent to which the story is itself, interactable. Choosing who I would assist in the Foreign Kingdom Quest was astounding. If I had played the game as a child, I would have definitely played the game multiple times to see every possible permutation that I could. And unlike games such as Sid Meier's Pirates, this adventure does NOT feel like a series of generic events that occur, with a story that is merely inferred in the headcannon of players ; as many 'open world' fags claim games such as Rimworld, GTA3, etc prattle on about -- granted RS2 has less freedom than these games mechanically speaking. This title is absolutely, the one that brings the most appeal on raw premise alone, as opposed to the other titles (which isn't to say RS2 is my favorite).
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(cont.) >>2268448 >>2268395
Saga 1/2 appeal is more specific. For me, I prefer Dragon Quest 1 out of the first four games in the series (haven't played 5/6 yet), and I prefer Final Fantasy 1 to almost every game in that series. Mainly, due to the exploration element, the light story, the custom characters, and the difficulty (altho I have long since played much more difficult games obv).

SaGa 1/2 fulfill that niche in spades. Not only do Saga 1/2 fulfill on the exploration element (to some extent), they do so in much more interesting settings -- if, a little too fractured in Saga 1's case. The stories are much more general in SaGa 1/2, and altho they are not as effectively told as Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles, it is done well enough to not be considered grating at the very least. Custom characters is ridiculous not in sheer variety - altho it does feature moreso than most jar/war-pigs - but in its consequences. Experimenting with monster types, sacrificing equipment for robots attacks, and having elf units with randomized skillsets offers plenty of room to improvise, and keep things fresh, especially as enemies aren't as weak as they are in other games (at least, somewhat).

I've not played either Frontier title long enough (yet) to recommend them with another game as an accurate reference point.

Unlimited/Scarlet seem to offer a rather odd but engaging experience. Obviously these come least recommended for newcomers due to that very fact alone (other than to hardocore players who have never touched a SaGa title before, and expect a challenge).
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There always seems to be someone in these threads who muscled through RS2 without much strategy, so I don't know what that says about my brainlet opinion. But RS2 is the only SaGa game I've played that has forced me to fully reconsider my team, strategy, and even equipment just to overcome some of the fights in that game.

I think Scarlet Grace was also up there, but it wasn't as fluid as RS2 was when it came to testing out different strategies. I really loved how RS2 was open to experimentation and how stats were just global that carried over to your new characters. No need to grind up new characters to try something new.
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>>2269000
did you play TLR
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I wonder how many people played only the 360 version of Last Remnant. Isn't the 360 version a completely different game compared to PC/remaster?
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I couldnt get into TLR, simply because of how annkying the protag is. Heard the game becomes a grindfest anyways
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God someone PLEASE tell me there is a new SaGa game coming, please fucking tell me there's going to be a SaGa Frontier 3 or a SaGa Scarlet Whatever or a fucking Romancing SaGa 4.
I was kinda disappointed with SMTV and there's not really any other JRPG series that I'm really that excited for, I really just need a new SaGa game right now, even another remaster would be nice
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>>2271473
>SaGa Frontier 3
This was Last Remnant
>Romancing SaGa 4
This was SaGa Frontier 1
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>>2271473
Wait till late December.
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>Romancing SaGa 2
>Romancing SaGa 3
>SaGa Scarlet Grace: Ambitions
>SaGa Frontier 1 Remastered
>SaGa Frontier 2
How are the Android mobile ports for the above?
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>>2271684
Frontier 2 has a mobile port?
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>>2271473
A couple of months ago Kawazu said that they are indeed working on a new game, not a remaster or a remake, a new mainline.
Whatever that will be we still don't know, what we know is that they're targeting the Switch as main platform, and that it will obviously be ported to most platforms out there.
If they don't show anything during christmas/new year streams you'll probably need to wait until summer, unless they've been working on it since a good year already I don't see it coming out before 2023.
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>>2272305
I double checked and nah it's not there, my bad. Must've confused it with something else.
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>>2272422
Last Remnant has a mobile port, I think. And there's also the gacha.
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>>2272493
>TLR got a mobile port rather than get relisted on Steam
Yeah, fuck you too Squeenix
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>none of the SaGa games are on sale for the Steam sale
Gay
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>>2249518
>>2268478
I don't think Unlimited is really *that* arcane, it just doesn't explain things terribly well. Most JRPGs introduce subsystems one at a time to the player, but you're engaging with everything from the start in Unlimited and depending on the character route, have to understand things immediately (ex. magic in Judy's route or item synthesis in Armic's).
The systems themselves are not that hard, just that the feedback UI doesn't really help grasp what changes have been made, if any, by the choice a player made due to the relative lack of art/animation.
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>>2275740
That's true, Unlimited's challenge is decoding things on your own more than using the systems, and you can say that for all of the games.
Though I personally like it that way, I wish more games were like SaGa and had 95% of the mechanics available right at the start and with no obnoxious tutorials and pop ups.
Not like having those helped Minstrel Song or Scarlet Grace anyway, SG is almost completely transparent on top of being very streamlined and lots of people still have troubles with it somehow.
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>>2275740
>>2276309
When it came out Unlimited actually had a 100 000 yen contest if you could answer about 21 questions about the game correctly, ranging from stuff like "how do you correctly make damascus", character trivia, and magic blenders and rainbow guckies

that stuff is in there so that the community can figure it out because lets face they know their audience
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>>2276476
https://web.archive.org/web/20080601091456/http://www.u-saga.com/contest.html
shit for some reason what I found is this but I'm sure there was a longer quiz in japanese

maybe this is a mandela effect thing happening to my brain
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>>2276309
It's definitely nice to have access to everything from the start, especially in a game that prioritizes multiple and different character playthroughs, but I think Unlimited would have been a lot more accessible if one character had been sort of the designated "tutorial" route that has a number of sub-objectives that get you to engage with each subsystem on a simple level.
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>>2276807
I was thinking what they could do is add Sensei as a tutorial mascot, and for your first game if you don't know what you're doing you can select "leave it to sensei" to have him make your party building decisions for you automatically or guide you on rails through smithing and stuff

he wouldn't look too out of place in most of the games
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>>2276807
That's already a thing with designated beginner MCs like Albert, Julian, Ventus etc., and coupled with the modern in game manuals and explanation popups we don't need more explicit tutorials than this.
SaGa's one of the few IPs which still respects the player's intelligence and doesn't waste time with forced tutorials, I don't want to see it dumbed down to appeal to other people, learning how to do things on your own is a core part of the intended experience and explicit tutorial sections or auto options go against this.
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Another casual filtered. To be fair though, he was playing the original Romancing SaGa 1, not Minstrel Song.
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Scarlet Grace and RS3 on sale for anyone interested.
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>>2278597
RS2 and Frontier are also on sale
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was going to buy the mobile version of Frontier 1 but Google asks for actual ID documents for verification purposes to purchase stuff on their store now, what the fuck?
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>>2280253
Why not get it on another platform? Why do you want it on mobile specifically?
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>>2280253
>buying anything on Jewgle Store
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>>2280592
>>2280622
Seemed convenient to be able to play it on my phone but yeah nah I'm not going through that, just got it on Steam instead
Starting with Blue, it's normal for HP to be refilled after battle right? I played this game once as a kid and got filtered after starting as Red, I remember finding it difficult at the time
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>>2280762
Correct, HP refills after battle. JP/WP/LP doesn't get refilled after battle.
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>>2280788
thanks
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Why does it seem like every time I see someone post "I wish there was a JRPG that (fulfills x criteria)" or "Why isn't there a JRPG that (contains y gameplay mechanic)?", there is a SaGa game that meets whatever the person is asking for?





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