What was the Genesis’ answer for Mode 7?
>>9932776And what did they do with blast processing
>>9932785Mentioned it in commercials.
>>9932793>>9932797>>9932798>>9932805>>9932809>>9932810>>9932816So they just came out with a different console? Does that count as the Genesis’ answer?
>>9932793was an addon. nintendo just werked out of the box with mode 7that's not fairthat's like saying you can only play tomb raider on ms-dos if you had 3dfx graphics accelerator, but you didnt need it, it's still was there available to play without extra addon
>>9932819It's an add-onGood enough to be a different console though
>>9932824The idea of “add-on chips” for cartridge based games was always fascinating to me, obviously there’s really no room for it these days it was just a product of the time, but it’s definitely interesting to speculate on how much these consoles could be pushed with all these Frankenstein extensions bolted on or in the cartridges. Doom 32X Resurrection is a good in practice example of that “what if.”
>>9932830The OpenLara team was working on a Tomb Raider 32X port too. Would've been neat to see a 3D Sonic game or something on it
>>9932837Yeah it’s a shame it was such a cluster, VF and VR on the 32x are so smooth I really wish we could have seen some more arcade ports or games in a similar vein, I think RPGs and games like that would have been a bit weird on it
Top Gear 2 got a Megadrive port. It's good but the SNES version is just better.
>>9932772Having a sane amount of sprites
>>9932849Genesis was light on RPG's anyway compared to SNES, though I could definitely see more sports and racing games on it. Maybe more 3D fighting games too.>>9932872OutRun is better anyway imo
>>9932772> Genesis’ answer for Mode 7Pretty impressive if they answered something from 2 years in the future
>>9932969But if they do what nintendoesn’t shouldn’t they have an answer
I liked how Road Rash did hills.
>>9932785Sports games that didn't slow down to a 5fps crawl when there were 12 sprites on screenThe Genesis's success in US and Europe was mostly down to fast paced team sports games. Madden and FIFA respectively.
It's answer is it's 3 TIMES faster CPU, which can easily do effects far more impressive than those flat and lifeless prebaked hardware plane effects.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LCQiJL0gAg>>9932823>that's not fairActually it is entirely fair, considering the SNES could also not do these "mode 7" games without cheating and expensive expansion chips, such as those found in Super Mario Kart and Pilotwings, the stock hardware was simply too slow for the 3D arithmetics needed for these sorts of games.
>>9932928I thought outrun was mediocre until I played it on a real motion cab. Unforgiving as fuck but rewarding and super smooth despite the 30 fps.
>>9933046The stock hardware could do mode 7 just fine, loads of games did. The reason pilotwings used the DSP was because the base hardware was original supposed to include the DSP as standard and the code was already written. Was cheaper to put the DSP in the cart than to delay to have all that code rewritten to standard 65816 assembly.
>>9933046> the SNES could also not do these "mode 7" games without cheating and expensive expansion chipsAnd yet, f-zero from OPs pic doesnt use any additional chips. Its pure stock snes.Also the segacd was impressive, but those mode7 games ran at a much lower framerate due to the typical bus limitations. Same reason starfox runs like a turd.Another note, the console war ended in the mid 90s
>>9933046Is there a gayer, more effeminate sour grapes way to describe SNES expansion chips than “cheating,” you sound like someone crying in a sandbox on the playground because they lost
>>9933072>f-zero from OPs pic doesnt use any additional chips. Its pure stock snes.And the limitations are apparent, being completely flat, terrible physics, only 4 other real racers, and no multiplayer. It was not impressive, which is entirely why later SNES "mode 7" titles required use of extra chips.>those mode7 games ran at a much lower framerateThey also performed sprite scaling along with the "mode 7" effects, entirely impossible on the SNES even WITH it's chips.>console war ended in the mid 90sDescribing technical limitations is not "console warring".
>>9933087>It was not impressive, which is entirely why later SNES "mode 7" titles required use of extra chips.Most later mode 7 games didn't use chips. The DSP was a particularly Nintendo thing. Most likely sunk cost because of their existing DSP based code.Street Racer did 4 player on the snes with no expansion chips to name just one.>They also performed sprite scaling along with the "mode 7" effects, entirely impossible on the SNES even WITH it's chips.If you dropped the framerate to 30 on the SNES then you had a whole extra 16ms to do nothing but process scaled sprites. Easily doable on a 3.5MHz CPU. I used to do that on a C64. Very few people did software sprite scaling on the SNES unfortunately.
>>9933087You are now comparing a stock snes to a genesis + segacd add on?The superfx could do some nice sprite rotation and scaling at full speed (Yoshi's Island) also combined with mode 7 (title screen and that boss fight)The superfx chip is cheaper than a sega cd add on as well.And again, the console war ended in the mod 90s
>>9932776Never used in any game.
>>9933087I mean to be fair Super Mario Kart had multiplayer. Oddly BC Racers didn't get multiplayer until the 32X port, still a fun game tho
>>9933087F-Zero snes is the one of the best racing games ever. It has a decent amount of depth if you bother to actually learn it and master it and it has a killer soundtrack. I agree about the multiplayer though, odd that wasn't a thing.
>>9933147Sega thought f zero was impressive on release. Also street racer has 4 player node and uses no extra chips either.>>9933264Hardware limitation, f zero tracks are larger than what a mode 7 play field can fit, so it needs to be dynamically updated each frame. not possible to do this twice for multiplayer. That is also why the tracks in mariokart/street racer are so compact.
>>9932772sega actually developed something called Mode 8. with the power of Mode 8, sonic would be able to got at super fast speeds and shake his finger, like shown in >>9932969.Mode 8 was so successfull that Sony developed Mode 9 one year later, which is still used for games like Elden Ring or Shrek 2: The Heavy Ogre Returns.
>>9933312somebdoy onse toll me
>>9933312No way! It was actually true?
>>9932981genesis did in '88 what nintenhadn't yet. then came and nintendisproved their slogan retroactively and ever genesince people have remembered them as the 4th gen losers
>>9933046>it's the "three times" anoncute how this japanese console lives rent free inside of you
It didn't have one other then cleaver programmers.>>9932824So few games took advantage of the extra power and sprite scaling capabilities of the CD, it was a legit good addon that Sega failed to support.
>>9935298That looks like absolute trash.
Post lesser known examples of good mode 7 usage.https://youtu.be/dK-SMwGi9d4?t=61Check out the arcade style presentation in this.
>>9935569FROM DOWNTOWN!wasn’t the twisty tunnel in castlevania 4 mode 7?
>>9932772CPU Brute Force:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMz1T0uTzLIhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwW5y4rrvwk
>>9932772Been playing Contra Hardcorps recently, it’s amazing what you can do in software with a processor 3x that’s more powerful. SNES had to push the cost of their mistake on their customers by charging extra for games with the Super-FX chip. What a joke.
>>9933186Used in a lot of games. You just have to turn it on.
>>9935543Thank god Im not mentally retarded like you!Thank you baby jesus!
>>9935951Not a single game used blast processing. Not one. Some demos released decades after the fact do indeed use it, but that's about it.
>>9935962>Not a single game used blast processing. Not one. Some demos released decades after the fact do indeed use it, but that's about it.All you have to do is activate it by believing in Sega brand.It's soul-powered.
>>9935985You funny guy.
>>9935952Only a retarded person would say that.
>>9935985Sega really was a soul powered company for a while, huh
>>9936047Yes, they harvested the souls of fat children to power their arcane technology.
Both mode 7 and the genesis' software effects were gimmicks. The real thing that each console has over the other is the snes' wide color palette and the genesis' true 4:3.
>>9932785Have a fuckton of things happening on-screen. Play through Gunstar Heroes on expert difficulty.
>>9936190Not blast processing
>>99361784:3 Aspek ratio isn't an advantage.
>>9936194>Not blast processingQuit being a nitpicking faggot. Anyone with half a brain knows that from a marketing standpoint "Blast Processing" was just a marketing term to convey the Genesis was overall faster with a beefier CPU and could throw more stuff around on screen. Who cares if the idea for the phrase came from a discussion about writing color directly to the screen? The only people nitpicking over the origin of the phrase are sulking SNES fans who are still mad about a console war that ended ~30 years ago and can't let it go.
>>9936221Play Earthworm Jim and try saying that.
>>9936294>from a marketing standpoint "Blast Processing" was just a marketing term to convey the Genesis was overall faster with a beefier CPUIt wasn't, it refers to an actual feature of the hardware that allows devs to show more colors than the genesis' palette can through CRT trickery, a feature that was never used in any commercial game. It has nothing to do with the speed of the processor at all.It was used as a marketing term but was never really explained to the public.https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2019-blast-processing-retro-analysis
>>9936314I know what the origin of the phrase is. I also know how it was used in marketing practice. They used it to show off games that were faster, had more action going on, etc. In other words, the origin of the phrase doesn't matter. What matters is how it was used. And how it was used, was to show off how much faster the Genesis could do things and how much more action it could have on screen:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bun8tA_ksZwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgbghke19nEAs I said, the only people nitpicking with the "ackchyually" responses are the SNES fans who need to point that out to feel some sort of redemption for all the crap they got on the playground from Genesis owners 30 years ago.
>>9936341It's not a phrase, it's a hardware feature that actually exists. The marketing usage is incidental and not relevant to this discussion.
>>9936349>It's not a phrase, it's a hardware feature that actually exists. It's both you idiot.
>Megadrive>Mode 7Pretty sure Mode 7 is unique to the SNES. You may achieve a similar affect through other means on other platforms but it's not "mode 7".
>>9932785It.....it processed blasts!
>>9936380When people say Mode 7 they generally mean the rotating plane effect seen in F-Zero, Mario Kart, etc. Which that's mode 7 with some additional software magic.Pure Mode 7 on it's own just gives you Bowser from Super Mario World, or the top down stages in Contra 3.
>>9933067Nintendo really should've included the FX chip in the system as originally planned. Plus it was supposed to be more powerful. Probably would have made all chip inclusion uselessOr making a small cart port for these chips, which a bunch of these would have came with major Nintendo releases or somethingI wonder in how much of a better position Nintendo would have been that way
>>9936503It would have only solved some of the problems, the fact of the matter is the SNES hardware is bottlenecked in many ways compared the Mega Drive, including:- Mega Drive 6.4 mbps DMA compared SNES puny 2.8 mbps, over twice the bandwidth- Mega Drive up to 320x448 with no limit to color count vs. SNES far smaller 256x224 limit before being restricted to a pitiful and unacceptably low 16 simultaneous colors- No limit to sprite tiles compared SNES tiny 16 kbs limit to sprite tiles- 64 kbs RAM fully accessable at all times compared SNES mere 8 kbs RAM available, as the remaining 120 kbs is inaccessable in other banks- Sample rate, 52 khz compared SNES muffled and filtered 32 khz, almost half the sample rateUnfortunately, no amount of expansion chips can ever fix these serious and glaring hardware issues, the entire system would need a complete overhaul and redesign to be redeemable in any way, and, at that point, it is no longer the SNES.
>>9932772>What was the Genesis’ answer for Mode 7?Mad Hatter fight in Adventures of Batman and Robin and Zero Tolerance
>>9936515i see you a lot in youtube comments under snes vs genesis videos
>>9936515>Sample rate, 52 khzDo speakers/AVRs even support this?
>>9936515The mega drive was quite amazing despite being out 2 years earlier than the snes.It's biggest shortcomings are:- the limited color palette (both total supported and visible on screen)- the initial 3 button controller. Too few buttons that just made it a better nes controller.Other limitations like fewer background layers are not a big deal in most games.Same for lack of mode 7, which did allow for some cool games (pilot wings, f-zero, mario kart) but that was just a handfull of titles overall.
>>9936573They could have used add-on chips to make Mode 7 games like they did with Virtua Racing but I suppose since they had the Sega CD they thought it wasn't worth the investment.To be honest Sonic 2's and 3's special stages look more impressive than any Mode 7 on the SNES.
>>9936573it also couldn't do transparency, which contributed to make the SNES look one generation ahead, for example with fog, energy halos, explosions...
>>9935298>2034 AD - Anon and his gf lead frontal assault on FBI headquarters.
>>9933046>cheating and expensive expansion chipsit's the anti snes sperg, you guys can just ignore these posts
>>9936538man that's just sad
>>9932790>>9932818>>9936382Outed yourselves as not actually playing this era of games when it was current.
>>9937147How did that work out
>>9936178Square pixels are nice to have, but they are not that big a deal. > true 4:3The CRT does not care one bit how many pixels you cram into a line, genesis 4:3 is in no way truer than SNES 4:3
>>9937158The 320 wide mode of the Genesis also comes with the benefit of more sprites and sprite pixels per scanline.
>>9937189More sprite pixels is pretty much cancelled out by having more pixels to fill.
>>9937209>More sprite pixels is pretty much cancelled out by having more pixels to fill.That's not how these systems work. They don't render to a frame buffer and have to deal with a fillrate or anything like that. The image is drawn directly to the screen. Sprite pixels per scan line is the amount of sprite pixels the VDP can draw to the screen each scanline. Having a higher amount simply means you can draw more sprites on that scanline before they start to drop out or flicker. Going to 320 wide mode doesn't mean you automatically have more sprites to draw on screen. It just means you now have a higher limit before you start having drop out and flickering. This is why beat'em ups are generally better on Genesis if they are using 320 wide mode. You can have more enemies on screen before things become a mess of dropped pixels.
>>9937297I am well aware of how these machines work. What I am saying is, in 256 pixel mode they can render 256 pixels of sprites, which can fill an entire frame. In 320 pixel model, they can render 320 pixels of sprites, which also fills one frame. So even though 320 pixel mode can render more sprite pixels, the overall on-screen coverage is the same.
>>9936314Imagine falling for bullshit that's older than you are
>>9936314https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bun8tA_ksZwHow do you watch this and still believe blast processing exists?
>>9937328Sure, both have the amount to render enough pixels to cover the horizontal width, but you're not always going to be drawing a perfect amount of sprites in a line across the screen. In many cases you may have some overlapping each other, etc. Let's say you have a beat'em up with a lot of large enemy sprites on screen. You can easily hit that 256 pixel limit just with a few enemies on screen possibly overlapping each other. While if you were on Genesis and running on 320 wide mode, you have more breathing room and could possibly add in another enemy or two. We see that exact scenario play out when you compare officially released beat'em ups on the system. The SNES games have far less enemies on screen than their Genesis counterparts. It's generally due to this and other bottlenecks involved with how the SNES handles sprites.
>>9932772sonic 2 split screenand the top 10 games don't even use mode 7>>9936515I wonder if it was a way to forced developers to make more detailed backgrounds.Think how good street fighter 2 would be if it wasn't gimped by the snes.
>>9937331Imagine being willingly obtuse and using wojaks out of impotence.
>>9937487I am aware of the other limitations of the SNES, that is a separate issue.In the case of sprite pixels. Art drawn for 256 pixel mode would require less pixels, since the pixels are wider. Of course granularity into 8x8 tiles complicates things.
>>9937504Regardless of square vs non square pixels, you're still going to hit your sprite dropout limit a lot sooner on the SNES than you would on the Genesis for certain kinds of games, beat'em ups being the biggest offender. Let's say you have so many enemies on screen piled around the player that you're drawing about 300 pixels worth of sprites on one scanline. On SNES you'd be in dropout and flicker hell, while on Genesis you'd be fine.
>>9936143but sonic wasnt fat :(
>>9937630never played Sonic & the Magic Onion Rings. is it any good?
>>9936503>Nintendo really should've included the FX chip in the system as originally planned.There was no such plan.
>>9936349>it's a hardware feature that actually exists.It refers to DMA, direct memory access, and the SNES can do it too.
>>9937779The SNES DMA is neither as fast nor as flexible as the Mega Drive DMA, making it useless for updating more than a single colour gradient for a background on the screen, which was an effect often seen in SNES games. The Mega Drive, conversely, can easily change enough colours dynamically to achieve 512 colour video codec playback. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW_7yUyBNto
>>9937821>The Mega Drive, conversely, can easily change enough colours dynamically to achieve 512 colour video codec playback>easilyIt requires one of those "cheating" expansion chips.
>>9937643Sonic 2 xl is very different. But I like it.
>>9937827Only a memory mapper for larger cartridge space, the stock Mega Drive is responsible for all processing. Or, if memory mappers are now prohibited, then we can discredit nearly the entire NES library, correct?
>>9937836Requiring a specific flash cart to use a special mapper isn't exactly what I would consider an easy or convenient feat.
>>9937840Then I suppose we also ought to discredit almost every single SNES game also as well, since many use the MAD-1 mapper, as the SNES was so shoddy that it could not handle it's own address decoding without an expansion chip?
>>9937843Why would commercially released games be discredited? You said it could be done ""easily"" while posting an example that can only be done in very specific circumstances.
>>9937849And it CAN be done easily, simply requiring a large amount of cartridge space, in actuality this effect could be done mapperless, but for hopefully obvious reasons, the length of the video playback will be quite short.Conversely, Nintendo's cheating and expensive mappers, which actually pull FAR MORE weight in the flawed NES and SNES hardwares, are somehow "OK" by you're standard, whilst this one example of a Mega Drive mapper is forbidden and disallowed? Tendies will go through every length of mental gymnastics and hypocracy to try to excuse their terribly designed hardwares.
>>9937821>The SNES DMA is neither as fast nor as flexible as the Mega Drive DMA,It's still blast processing. Sure, the blasts may not be as large or as forceful, but they are blasts nonetheless. One thing you forget, the SNES had four extra controller buttons. Sega's system had four, SNES had eight. That's a 100% increase and significantly more of what really counts when it comes to videogame consoles, buttons. Only the stock controller counts, of course.
>>9937867>expensive mappersThe Mega Everdrive Pro is 260 bucks.
>>9937875>actuality this effect could be done mapperlessReading comprehension.>>9937873>It's still blast processingOnly useful for the distinction of claiming the SNES "technically can do it", whilst completely ignoring the ways in which the Mega Drive's vastly superior blast processing runs utter circles around the SNES in every way.>Only the stock controller countsAll controllers are peripherals, this argument is illogical and silly.
>>9937885>theoretically without an evil cheating mapper you can render two whole frames of an uncompressed videoStill not really seeing how this fits the definition of the word "easily".
>>9937887"Easily" in reference to changing colour palettes, reading comprehension. I understand it's quite difficult, being so used to slow 2.68 mhz games, but do try to keep up.>>9937821>The Mega Drive, conversely, can easily change enough colours dynamically
>>9937442tendiesisters.... not like this
>>9937892It's so easy it only requires 260 dollar cartridge to do it.
>>9937894Reading comprehension.>>9937892>"Easily" in reference to changing colour palettesChanging colour palettes can be done irregardless of mapper hardware, yes, EASILY. It is, at this point, woefully apparent you haven't even the basic slightest idea of how hardwares work, quite sadly typical for tendies, as if they had any technical inclination, they wouldn't constantly finding themselves defending such shoddy and poor hardwares.
>>9932790That is a 187! Fuck, I'm dead lol. Bravo.
>>9937904>Changing colour palettes can be done irregardless of mapper hardware, yes, EASILYYet the example you gave only works on one specific flash cart with a special mapper. It can't be done without expensive cheating hardware.
>>9937914Then take a single frame of that video and use that as my example, reading comprehension, because it proves the exact same point, that the Mega Drive can easily perform far more dynamic colour palettes than the SNES, thanks it's far faster and more flexible DMA abilities. This ability actually EXCEEDS the SNES cap of 256 simultaneous colours, which is quite funny, since the SNES is meant to be "so good at colour".
>>9937921Displaying one high color image is not very good as far as video games go.
>>9937921If it's so easy then why do genesis games look so dull compared to the SNES or even turbo graphics?Coming up with extreme situations where it can outshine is nice, but doesnt help for actual games
>>9937836It's not just a Mapper being used in that scenario. The FPGA is being used to help with tasks like audio and what not because the 68k is 100% in use and can't do anything else while the video is being played. Without that chip this is the kind of stuff you can get FMV wise:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QrNSDApEoghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN8FzE9hv_4Now for a console that really can pull that off with just a big mapper, that would be the NES:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3AFP61JizEBefore people go "lol the NES is more powerful than the Genesis!" you'd have to say that about the SNES as well. The NES is designed in a way where the entire bus is exposed and wide open on the cart slot. Character RAM can be stored on the cartridge itself, so with a big cart and a mapper you can literally keep swapping in new tiles into character RAM every frame and just display them on screen. This isn't an expansion chip doing this, the main CPU is the one still in control running the entire show, all it's doing is asking the mapper to change banks for the PPU to read tiles from for the next frame.No system since has really exposed it's main bus as much as the NES did so doing this kind of stuff isn't as easy to do.
>>9937630That makes my pp the PP
>>9938715>No system since has really exposed it's main bus as much as the NES didlol
>>9939031It's true. The example given is something that can very easily be done with just a mapper on the NES because everything is there and available. CHR RAM can be in the cart and hooked up straight to the PPU while on other systems you'd need to copy it into VRAM first either through DMA or having the CPU copy it. So on the Genesis and SNES you need to use DMA or have the CPU copying those tiles to VRAM each Frame, while on the NES you're just changing pointers to tell the PPU where in CHR RAM it's new tiles are as the mapper bank switches. It's very much a thing that only can be done on the NES because of how it's designed and how much is exposed.
>>9937073Name one (1) commercially released game that utilized blast processing.
>>9937442Because it does, it's not up for debate.
>>9938272Because you're comparing a hardware feature to some perceived quality.
>>9938272In what universe is this "dull"?Actually Mega Drive tends to be far more saturated than SNES, as it uses a much higher quality colour DAC component than the SNES, allowing for more vivid and saturated shades than the SNES is capable, this on top of the incessant need for developers to use off shade pastel colours on the SNES often lent to SNES games looking rather brown and gray and dull when compared competitors on other hardwares. Quite funny, again, when the SNES is somehow meant to be the "champion of colour".
>>9939608lol you have got to be kidding me
>>9935298Contra III is plodding and heavy feeling compared to this but it is infinitely prettier. Depends on what you're after I guess.
>>9939682How about you come up with counter examples? although that screenshot is honestly that impressive taking it by face value. A gif could have been better
>>9933046>>9933087>>9936515>>9937885>>9937892>>9937904this guy doesn't know anything about hardware or coding btw. he's just a literally autistic loser who memorizes factoids from homebrew generals and YouTube videos and then claims he's "just stating facts!" when he's rightfully accused of being the console warring faggot that he is. he even got kicked out of the homebrew general recently for constantly starting shit and he gets really cranky if you press him to post his work (which he can't because he doesn't know anything and can't make stuff). after getting kicked out he immediately started another shitty console war bait thread. it's literally just the same shit we used to do in the schoolyard where we'd quote numbers we barely understood to prove that our favorite game company was the best. you can always spot him because of phrases like "cheating expansion chips" and "3 times the processing power!". he'll probably respond to this post accusing me a seething. don't waste your time debating with him and just talk about things with substance, like what games you enjoy and why.
>>9939746Could he perhaps become /vr/'s new lolcow? He is already spreading to threads where his bullshit is totally irrelevant to the discussion: >>9939621
>>9939787>>9939746Could it be an AI Australia-kun. That greasy fucker
>>9939682Above is the "master of colour" SNES. Below is the "dull, desaturated, lack of vivid" Mega Drive.I am sorry, but the truth is very apparent, with even a cursory glance at the Mega Drive library, it commonly has a richness and vivid to it's colour palette and shades that the SNES can only dream of.
>>9939412Why don't we call it what it actually is? 512 Direct Color DMA. Blast Processing is and always will be a marketing term that's vaguely talking about more CPU horsepower. I don't care if it the idea for the term originates from a discussion about "blasting color to the VDP." That doesn't matter as that's not what it was used to describe.
>>9939031>it's copeSo which "it's main bus" are you talking about kiddo?WTF is wrong with you kids?
>>9937643It's funny for about a minute, but then it starts becoming annoying because the levels are not designed with the fat playstyle in mind.
>>9939929You want to console war? Okay. People like you tricked me into buying a Genesis to try it out and it sucks ass. The games all suck. Sonic is decent but everything else is terrible.I actually wanted to like it, but I don't at all. I want to get rid of it. I'm not even mad about the money I wasted but the fact that I was promised a good time and in the end I had zero fun.
New anon joining the thread>>9938272>If it's so easy then why do genesis games look so dull compared to the SNES or even turbo graphics?>Coming up with extreme situations where it can outshine is nice, but doesnt help for actual gamesFrom what I can gather you're basically saying that most games look dull on the Mega Drive because of the 64 on screen colour palette limitation they used. You're only partially correct. While it is a limitation, that doesn't mean it's not impossible to get a beautiful and colourful artstyles with this limit. There's a guy called Pyron in the Mega Drive scene who's been doing a lot of palette edits of tiles to make them look right in this 64 colour limit. This here is a working in progress for the SOTN port to the Mega Drive. I'll post some more WIP images that show the differences between the PS1 title and the new Mega Drive tiles.
>>9940540Ghouls 'n Ghosts Arcade Edition is in development for the Mega Drive to make it closer to the arcade original which is coming along nicely.
>>9940546MvSF port to the Mega Drive. So far the colour balance is fairly faithful to the arcade original.
>>9940553And finally, the Mega Drive is getting a R-Type port.So as you can see, it's more about careful palette choices than its standard 64 on screen colour limit.
>>9940561Stunning shots that are far more vivid than anything I have seen on the "master of colour" SNES. Colour palette capacity be damned, the SNES being decent at colours is a wholesale myth and it needs to die.
>>9940517>>9940518>>9940519>>9940520>>9940521>>9940523>>9940524>>9940525>>9940528>>9940530>>9940532>>9940534>>9940540The Genesis port looks so much more fun and colorful. What's funny is it has the potential to be better than the Saturn version too, lol
>>9940583Again, it's all down to artstyle and clever use of the colour palette. The advantage the SNES has is that it's more flexible getting the right colours for certain artstyles. The Final Fight port coming to the Mega Drive looks great. But anyone familiar with the arcade will be able to pick out the Mega Drive's shortcomings because there's too much going off at once and the shading doesn't look as nice due to the 9bit graphics.https://youtu.be/5tOByUSoHYo
>>9940625>SNES has is that it's more flexible getting the right colours for certain artstylesThis is incorrect, the colour DAC used in the SNES being a far inferior component, finds the SNES struggling to reproduce colours accurately, as evidenced by that screen shot, where his skin is far too red and jeans outlines are far too dark, these sorts of issues being endemic in SNES games, most noticeably in it's poor reproduction of purple shades, though anything attempting to be vivid and saturated will have similar problems. Nintendo tried to make up for this poor colour selection by allowing for a much larger palette, but, unfortunately, it simply does not make up for the overall poor quality of the shades.
>>9940405Exposed to the cart port is the key. Main Bus may not be the right term for it but the point is there's so much crap exposed on the NES cart port that's not exposed on any other system. That allows it to do a ton of crap with just basic shit like mappers. Instead of having tiles stored in VRAM they're instead on the cart itself connected directly to the PPU. So with just a mapper now you can do stuff like FMV or pre-animated background tiles for parallax with very little effort on the CPU side. All that the CPU needs to do is tell the mapper to switch banks and then give the PPU a new pointer to where the new tile data is. No need to copy data with the CPU or with DMA to VRAM like you do on just about any other system.
Mega Drive / Genesis colours might look "saturated"... what you really mean is the colours can sometime pop more, because of the lack of gradient shades. Look at the sky on Mega Drive, is that purple at the top exhibiting superior saturation, or is it just popping because of the lack of colours necessary to produce the gradual gradient on the SNES.
>>9940530>>9940583this shit is not easy to do(in the sense of art). notice how her skin tone becomes a highlight color for the MD downsample. Making the right compromise choice is the result of a good artist, there is no 'reduce color' button to make this look good.And yes, it looks good, but remember that it costs time an effort to do this, which are things in short supply when making a video game.
>>9940583It's not a myth it's a fact just like the Genesis CPU being faster, the SGDK library has made it easier to push the Genesis to it's limits and the SNES doesn't have any tools that come close to SGDK yet.
>>9940706Street Fighter 2 is also a bad example. The original port handled the palettes very poorly. Pyron and others have done multiple hacks over the years that have addressed that issue:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asE5V505SJ0
>>9935821the room that you hung from a ring and it all turned around you might've been mode7, but the room after that where everything was spinning like in a tube was not. think there' a YT vid explaining how they did it, and its pretty neat for a near-launch title.>>9936515>>9936515>- Sample rate, 52 khz compared SNES muffled and filtered 32 khz, almost half the sample rateand how many channels of that could the MD do? The snes could handle 8.>>9936542>>Sample rate, 52 khz>Do speakers/AVRs even support this?natively? most would not (preferring multiples of 16k or 11.025k )But console don't output this natively, it passed through the internal DAC and is analog from the console's output.
>>9940719The Mega Drive outputs sound at a native 52 khz on all channels. So, 10 sound channels. The SNES can only output 8 channels at 32 khz. This, along with the various filters and compressions applied on SNES sound, is one of the reasons for it's "distinctive" pillow muffle sound, compared the Mega Drive's crystalline crisp audio.
>>9940721If only a pillow could be placed against the Mega Drive's "sound output" to protect my ears from its crisp farts.
>>9940721wrong, the genesis cannot output 52khz sound samples through 10 audio channels. It only has exactly 1 channel that can handle sampled sounds. And it handles it at 32khz.You're confusing the FM clock sample rate out of the FM channels that can't do sampled sounds.
>>9940754Don't bother arguing with that guy, he is a notorious shitposter as >>9939746 said.
>>9932772vectorman 1 and 2
>>9940754Nobody said anything about playing samples. The Mega Drive outputs primarily FM sounds, you should know this. It does this across up to 6 channels at 52 khz each, with 4 additional PSG channels that actually are much higher than 52 khz. This is why Mega Drive music has a crispness and life to it that the SNES only wishes it could achieve. At least form you're questions correctly before you start trying to get involved in technical comparisons.
>>9938263Imagine this being your only way to communicate, with facebook pics. lmao
>>9940826And despite all that, the music usually sounds worse in genesis titles.You are either the biggest larping troll puting way too much effort in shitposting or the biggest sperg this board has seen in months.
>>9940673>This is incorrect>Nintendo tried to make up for this poor colour selection by allowing for a much larger paletteAnon, I literally said that the SNES is more flexible at getting the right colours for certain artstyles. That means I'm saying that the SNES' larger colour palette and on screen colours helps with the overall look in some cases, like it has with Final Fight. Please pay attention next time, this isn't an argument about which does it better (because it all boils down to an artstyle choice) when we can both agree that these consoles have limitations due to them not being 32bit True Colour.
>>9940945>And despite all that, the music usually sounds worse in genesis titles.NTAThere are a multitude of reasons for it sounding bad, with a shit sound driver being used. Watch this video as it will explain the reasoning behind the poor quality.https://youtu.be/2W4yTL-9gZE
>>9941045https://youtu.be/vPMPh0zGCUIIt didn't matter that the SNES had lo-fi samples because it had eight channels of samples giving the composer plenty of flexibility to make something sound nice through arrangement. Some composers even took advantage of the sample quality to give a cool sci-fi effect. You posted a video of some isolated drum loops, not full songs.
>>9941125>You posted a video of some isolated drum loops, not full songs.Because the subtractive synth in the Mega Drive doesn't have the same limitations as the PCM samples, which have always been the issue for the system due to the box standard sound driver. This is all well documented and understood in the Mega Drive scene.If you really want examples of what music the Mega Drive can do, there are loads of examples from the demo scene as well as new music for new games like Xeno Crisis.https://youtu.be/50aLxtTaQs8https://youtu.be/dgdceaN99gUhttps://youtu.be/ZJxmBVbqBbo
Those are good, even if not playing on original hardware. But having all these synth channels means the instruments have a limited timbre, whereas with samples you can create a much more varied and interesting soundscape, that doesn't begin sounding like noise after a minute or two, https://youtu.be/M5o_XqDmS1c .
>>9940826>Nobody said anything about playing samples.>>9936515>- Sample rate, 52 khz compared SNES muffled and filtered 32 khz, almost half the sample rateyeah. good one... So stupid, doesnt even know they are misquoting and comparing 2 different things at the same time.
>>9941471LOL, at this point it would be far less embarassing for you to just admit you do not know what "sample rate" means.>>9941021>helps with the overall look in some cases, like it has with Final FightFinal Fight looking far more washed out and using awkward off shades on the SNES is hardly a glowing endorsement of the SNES weird colour palette, especially in light of the recent Mega Drive port.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OTevh_69OkSNES muted and anemic colours look like shit in comparison, as is all too often the case.
speaking of street racer, it was on megadrive too, and FASTER
>>9942324it looks pathetic compared to mode 7 and sounds pathetic too. idk why they changed the awesome OST.
>>9938715>No system since has really exposed it's main bus as much as the NES did so doing this kind of stuff isn't as easy to do.The Neo Geo GPU did access tiles over the cartridge bus. The NES does expose slightly more because the cartridge controls nametables however.
>>9941860>Final Fight MD - Sega Genesis / Mega Drive Port Looks like it plays alright but the ear rape of the telephone in the intro almost made me have to close the video straight away.
>>9940532>>9940530those two look a lot worse on Megadriveand this one >>9940520 makes the statues stick out, which could be misleading and interpreted as them being part of the foreground is this some sort of contest in which anons do a contest to determine which one is the most blind?
So let me get this straight, all the evidence of the genesis showing better color and music is from modern fanhacks only with no snes equivalent in the amount of autism that went into these creations?In the 90s most games looked and sounded better on the snes, not saying the genesis was bad, but it usually could not keep up in these areas in commercially released games.
>>9943027>those two look a lot worse on MegadriveOf course they do but them still looking comparable to the originals is incredible.
>>9943163Not up for debate.
>>9936515>- Mega Drive up to 320x448 with no limit to color count vs. SNES far smaller 256x224 limit before being restricted to a pitiful and unacceptably low 16 simultaneous colors512x448 actually. And 16x16 colors which you can change per scanline anyway so the limit was not much of a limit. And that was 256 colors out of 32768 as opposed to the genesis' 512.>- Sample rate, 52 khz compared SNES muffled and filtered 32 khz, almost half the sample rateIt's PWM, the high sample rate is how often you can change the pulse widths, it's not equivalent to PCM sample rates.
>>9940704Exposed to too many youtube hot takes more like it. You can parrot whatever kiddo you get your opinions from until the cows come home. It'll never make you sound like you have a clue. But keep on back peddling if it makes you feel better.
>>9932785Action games instead of easy platformers and basedboy jrpgs
>>9943250>512x448 actuallyThe point of that post was to point out that the SNES can't go over 256x224 without being limited to only 16 colours on a layer. That's Amiga-tier, and makes the high resolution mode on the SNES completely worthless. The Mega Drive, on the other hand, has no such limitation and can do 320x448 with the same amount of colours as always.>it's not equivalent to PCM sample rates.A lot of tendies here don't know what sample rate means. The FM synthesizer is digital, not analogue, this means it updates at a discrete rate. That rate is 52 khz. It's the exact same as the SNES digital sampler, which updates at a discrete rate of 32 khz. Think of it as the frame rate of a digital audio device.>>9943065>all the evidence of the genesis showing better color and music is from modern fanhacks only with no snes equivalent in the amount of autism that went into these creations?Correct, only recently have Mega Drive developers proven definitively that the Mega Drive hardware was capable of vastly better audio and visuals than the SNES. What difference does that make? In the end the hardware is better and that's all that matters.
>>9936382No you idiot, it blasts the process.
>>9933186Used in Mortal Kombat for the SNES
>>9935048When you really think about it, if Nintendo had put a 68000 in the SNES, that would basically just make it an Atari Jaguar.
>>9944015>colours>tendies>AmigaGoing to throw you to the fucking abbos, cunt
>>9944015>Correct, only recently have Mega Drive developers proven definitively that the Mega Drive hardware was capable of vastly better audio and visualsThats nice that people are pushing the system, its getting much closer to what the snes can do.
>>9943204I agree on that.
>>9937073You're right I didn't. I was pc-only until the PS1/N64 era
>>9943301>You just watch youtube videos!And you're just a living incarnation of the "ackchyually" meme. Other people in this thread got what was being said and understood it. You're the only one making a big stink over one word because it's the only way you can stroke your own ego.
>>9943250> And 16x16 colors which you can change per scanline anyway so the limit was not much of a limit.You're not going to be doing that on the SNES. Doing those kinds of effects is a lot more difficult to do on the SNES due to how little you can actually do with the PPU while it's actively drawing. That said, Mode 5 and 6 aren't limited to just 16 colors. They have 1 4bpp layer and for Mode 5 an additional 2bpp layer. That doesn't mean all the tiles are going to be using the same 16 color palette at all times. They can still have different palettes for different tiles. It's basically like Mode 1 and 2, but you lose one 4bpp layer in exchange for higher resolution.
>>9944893>That doesn't mean all the tiles are going to be using the same 16 color palette at all times. They can still have different palettes for different tiles.Incorrect, though a common misconception indeed. Although the SNES does have the RAM for more palettes, in high resolution modes, it does not have the bandwidth to utilise alternate palette indices, thanks the SNES PPU's overall lower bandwidth, and therefore, tiles are locked into a single palette in these modes. This is why the backgrounds in the very few games that used these modes, such as RPM Racing, or the menu screens in Secret of Mana, only have 16 unique colours, pic related. Pedantically speaking, it IS capable of more than 16 total colours, because sprites are not limited in this way (sprites are never high resolution), and the 2-bit layer uses an alternate palette compared the 4-bit palette, thus having it's own unique 4 colours. But the point remains that these extreme limitations on colour, along with higher VRAM consumption, higher DMA bandwidth consumption, and greater CPU resource requirements, culminate into a largely useless and impractical graphics mode that only exists for artificial spec sheet inflation.
>>9940540Ow, my eyes!
Raw CPU Power to run 3d gameshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-bNrcfC6qg
What was the NeoGeo's answer to Mode 7?
>>9945215>watches video (with sound off!!)yep, definitely "raw"
>>9945215looks like fucking garbage
>>9945296Let's see the 2.68 mhz SNES do any better. Hell, even the stock Amiga, 5 YEARS older than the SNES, could do 3D better than the SNES, WITH chips. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM-7EnJbpQJust how fucking pathetic was SNES hardware? It is no wonder nobody could get any decent games out of the thing.
>>9944975Sorry, I must be misunderstanding your argument. Mode 5 has access to multiple palette indices as normal. Pic related.Sorry it's not a very good example, I literally grabbed the SNES docs and looked for some example code to modify. This is my first SNES program.I took https://github.com/bbbradsmith/SNES_stuff/blob/main/twoship/twoship.sAnd modified it to load 2 palettes, so 32 colors in total. I then alternated pal 1, pal 2, pal 1, pal 2 on every tile. So those hires ships are using 32 colors.The point is, palette indices are "free" on SNES because they are embedded into the tile map data. You can't save PPU bandwidth by omitting them. As to why RPM racing uses only 1 16 color palette I cannot say because there is literally no benefit to doing so that I can see.The one issue that I never thought of but makes sense in hindsight is that the hires mode only contains palette info for 16x16 tiles so you can't change palette within a 16x16 block.
>>9945345ROM or it's fake. No, Game Maker mockups do not "prove" anything.
>>9945501Dude, its asm and the rom is in the fucking readme
Basically the Genesis was better than the SNES at everything
>>9939929disingenuous and likely bait post. but most genesis games didn't pop color-wise like snes games, for obvious reasons. the only ones off the top of my head that reach snes levels are sonic 1&2 (3 has a much more washed out look) and beyond oasis. which is fine, its a cool aesthetic and its fine that genesis is it's own thing, but coping by pretending it isn't true is just weird.
>>9945315i'm sorry that i hurt your feelings anon, i know this is a sensitive subject for you. but posting a really shitty barely playable game that kind of does something 3D isn't a win, and neither is posting non-sequiturs about computer hardware
>>9945501hahahahahahai guess memorizing factoids with almost no practical understanding of what they mean has reached its limit for you, spammer-anon
mode 7 looked awful
>>9945550>Basically the Genesis was better than the SNES at everythingThis isn’t true and I love the Genesis & Saturn. It depends on the programmers and how they were able to utilize the hardware/coding, gameplay, and creativity in making whatever game.I play Genesis & Saturn more nowadays but the nes & snes do have games I still go back to every weekend such as Bionic Commando, Vice Project Doom, X-Kaliber 2097, Biometal, Phalanx, Operation Logic Bomb, and a few others.Some games suck and others don’t but we all can agree that N64 will always be dumb.
>>9945501How retarded are you? Rom is right there on the github page
>>9932772Literally the genesis.
Raw CPU power could do it alone, just look at Hard Drivin, Road Rash, Skitchin, Zero Tolerance, the G-ZERO tech demo or Kawasaki Superbike Challenge... all games which did this wellThe Mega-CD added a rotation and scaler technology which was superior to the SNES one but few games used it, alot of Core Design's games did though, also the PCM chip which is like SNES but without interpolation or other postprocessing effects32X was pretty much just additional 2 32-bit CPUs (the Hitachi SH-2) in a master/slave format which in terms of video worked as a framebuffer and when displaying sprites and graphics via the 32X you could display far more colours than with the Mega Drive/Mega-CD. Like how the most impressive stuff with polygons and scaling was done on the MD, most stuff in the 32X was done in software, also it also added 2 stereo QSound PWM channels (similar to the GBA audio) which you could play back modtracker-like stuff and higher quality samples - the drums in Chaotix, the sound effects in Doom, and quite a few songs on Kolibri make good use of this(Also, the 32X has a really good composite decoder, compared to most models of the Mega Drive)Also as for music sounding like 'farts' in FM synth, the YM2612 (OPN2) is very similar to the PC98's chip, fairly similar to the common arcade chip of the 80s/90s (OPM/YM2151) and a little similar to the YM3812 (OPL2), but in particular GEMS, a tool created by some people including the composer of the games Chakan, Action 52, X-Men and Kid Chameleon, made converting music over really easy what with MIDI support and being able to hear your compositions playing on the actual console whilst composing them, and is actually a really great tool in the right hands, however most American composers using it didn't really grasp that the FM patches provided were base presets that were supposed to be modified by the user. (thankfully, Howard Drossin exists and we got Comix Zone and The Ooze)
>>9939746Sounds a bit like Jamie Dignam/Compa/Luigi442wii/Termingamer/whatever https://varishangout.com/index.php?threads/the-video-game-preservation-retro-windows-community.1305/post-12650
>>9932785>And what did they do with blast processingWhat Nintendon't.
Good to see the 16 bit Console Wars still rage on decades after the fact. Helps me forget how shitty the present is.
why couldn't the genesis blast process these awe-inspiring mountains in the background? i can't imagine my childhood without these
>>9945939Because probe entertainment suck dick.
>>9945501https://files.catbox.moe/jnwsnc.sfcNow with 3rd palette to make it clearer.The water is the 2bpp layer with 4 colors. The ships use palettes 1,2,3 for a total of 48 colors. The sprites are separate.I want to be clear that this isn't really my code. It's someone else's demo to demonstrate mode5+interlacing and I just butchered it to have more than 16 colors on the same background layer.
>>9936221It's not an advantage if you design your game with non-square pixels in mind. In practice most games didn't, and titles like MM7 and Plok would be significantly better if the camera wasn't so cramped.
>>9932772Why are zoomers so obsessed with mode 7 that they have to yell it out when they see it?
>>9945345>>9946032auster's been real quiet since these dropped. you good, auster?
>>9946404True, and they frequently mislabel different effects as Mode 7.
>>9946941the worm fears the lighthe always disappears when he gets BTFO
>>9933046I was always annoyed that enhancement chips weren't things you could just install into your system and have them boost most games in one way or another, but I was too young to know about the 32X/CD addons for the Genesis to realize that would be a horrible idea.Nintendo had the right idea with the 8MB RAM extension that came with DK64, but they could have done more without going full greedy kike retard like Sega did.
>>9936515>SNES release date: November of 1990>Genesis release date: October of 1988Dude what the FUCK is wrong with Nintendo? Two whole years and they released hardware that was drastically inferior in the majority of categories? Wow I'm kind of glad Nintendo got blown the fuck out by Sony; they were some arrogant dumb motherfuckers. Considering Yamaguchi was in charge they were probably too busy with Yakuza shit to listen to their actual game developers.
>>9936931>implying the FBI will exist in 5 years>much less 10When the evil kikes finally do dismantle the FBI there will be an uptick in Muslim immigrants beheading people and selling fentanyl just so we can have an even worse version of the FBI.
>>9947381take your meds
>>9945634Not that guy and not a fan of the mega drive port of F-15 Strike Eagle, but No Second Prize is absolutely playable. >computer hardwareAtari ST's hardware isn't much different from a console. It's using bitplane graphics just like all consoles in the 16 bit era, with the only difference being the 32KB framebuffer instead of a tile cache and a sprite controller. If it didn't have a disk drive, 512KB RAM, and huge markup pricing, it would be cheaper than the PC-Engine.
>>9947372Pre-Iwata nintendo never had a clue about what the fuck they were doing. Nintendo had an overnight success in 1983 by essentially making china tier clones of 6502 CPU, their foothold in the gaming industry was mostly a result of luck and american investors. They greenlit trash like nintendo ROB and virtual boy. They almost turned the gameboy into game watch 2.0. The N64 had an utterly botched development, and it's still a piece of shit despite Nintendo having hired dozens top of the line tech contractors from all over the world to contribute to the project. Unlike the xbox and the dreamcast before it, the gamecube had absolutely nothing that made it stand out from the PS2, fewer features and fewer games aside. You know why the SNES came out so late and has crappy features that make no sense? It's because they unironically thought an affordable CD system would be feasible by 1990, and it's very clear they prioritized moviegame features like post processing and mode 7 scaling over actual performance. Nintendo was pre-Tramiel atari tier stupid. It's a miracle that the SNES came out at all.
>>9939929>>9940451>>9945623Even when you look at multiplat titles such as Ewj and toy story Genesis looks way better.
>>9948187>remember to report and move on
So, the SNES has HDMA, but the genesis has also VDMA: if you don't know what DMA is, it's basically squishing lines to create a 3d effect.
>>9948421>DMADirect Memory Access, if you had read this thread carefully enough, you would know that by now.
>>9937493>and the top 10 games don't even use mode 7fucking super mario world used mode 7.