The best way to play retro games
I already did.Experimented it all, from RGB to SCART to fucking around with VGA... In the end, I came back home, to composite, as devs intended.
Composite for 2d, s-video for 5th gen, rgb for 6th gen. Simple as
I agree but normies aren’t interested in historical accuracy.Just as a random example take the gun sound effects from the original Terminator film.All HD releases have had them replaced with different (inferior imo) sound effects but good look finding anyone who cares about this.
I just use scart so i only have to change one connector
>>9750519I didn't know that, guess I'll keep the DVD forever
RGB does look better, however for retrogaming it's a huge meme and composite is more accurate.You lose all the composite blend with RGB and S-Video, pixels will look too sharp, gradients will have banding, dithering will just look like random pixels.NES SNES GENESIS, etc won't look correct through RGB, NES didn't even have RGB to begin with and genesis was faulty.I'm still unsure about N64, but it doesn't really matter since RGB wasn't supported, I'm unsure about PSX too because it does have some gradients in FMVs that will look bad on RGB but generally RGB colors look better
>>9750535DVD has it too[Reddit post]I can still remember getting the DVD many, many years ago, all excited to see the film in better quality and in widescreen. From the opening Future War scene at the very beginning, I immediately could tell something was...off. I couldn't hear the music when we see the solider running from the HK tank. Instead I was hearing sounds I had never heard before.Once the terminator shot the first Sarah, and I didn't hear the infamous "Dirty Harry magnum" sound effect, I knew they had changed it.They've actually changed even more than just the gunshots and explosions. Engines sounds different, you can hear different ambient noises in the background depending on the setting (the flock of birds that fly away from Reese when he walks out of the alleyway after cutting off the end of his shotgun and putting it under his coat). Even the sounds effects we hear in the terminator's POV shots are different.Worst example is when the terminator hops on his bike to chase after them (with the Tiki Motel logo above him). In the mono mix, you really hear that engine rev as he takes off and gives chase. Really gets you, the viewer amped up and excited for the awesome action you know you're about to witness.In the 5.1 mix? The engine slowly lulls into second gear and smoothly transitions to cruising speed as the terminator goes for a leisurely Sunday drive. Even in T2 when Arnold took off from the biker bar at the beginning of the movie, there was more "oomph" from the bike's engine.I would suggest for all you guys out there to get your hands on one of the few fan edits people have made that take the blu-ray, and put the mono mix back in, with the option for the 5.1 if you want (like the official releases SHOULD DO).Oh, and some of these fan edits retain the ORIGINAL color timing, instead of that godawful teal look the current blu-ray has that every old movie apparently needs these days for whatever reason.[/reddit]
>>9750519why would the gun sounds be replaced in a movie?
>>9750578Genesis RGB is crystal clear, what are you talking about? The composite signal on all Gen/MD machines is generally considered terrible. I think it's charming, but I use both on mine.
>>9750589Modern BD releases are often fucking terrible for no apparent reason. Bad color grading and bad audio mixes. Buy DVDs at thrift store, rip them into lossless MKVs.
>>9750608Shitty cost cutting imo, studios aren’t willing to spend a bit of extra money to do things the right way
>>9750596clarify this for me: does the sonic waterfall look correct on original genesis RGB?
>>9750517There's outliers for both but I'd rather play SNES games on RGB than PS1 on S-Video.
>>9750578>the same tired waterfall example again and again and again
>>9750694I can give you another example: textboxes in harvest moon SNES look terrible and I won't rest until I can play the game with proper textboxes
>>9750583>that godawful teal look the current blu-ray has that every old movie apparently needs these days for whatever reasonFor old films it's probably a shit filter being applied to hide incompetent color grade remastering or parts of the film having too much blue/green dye fade to be 100% salvageable
Composite has a fuzzyness to it that I associate with PS2 graphics. The few times I got SCART-RGB working (my TV is wonky), it looked better but it no longer looked like a PS2 game. I don't know how to explain it, even.
>>9750698>3th of Spring
>>9750589The sound was probably remastered and for whatever reason they also did some tweaking. There's crazy shit like that where when star wars was first in theaters, when they compressed the stereo track for the mono version they also changed a voice actor and added a few lines.
>>97505172d?you mean 3rd and 4th gen
>>9750495Unless it is an arcade game.Or a VGA PC game.Or a handheld game.
>>9750495The ultimate solution is PAL-60. Its like having your cake and eating it. Enough blending to make dithering work, whilst remaining sharp, and without any rainbow artifacts.
>>9750760Barely any platforms can output PAL-60. I think the Wii is the only one of my consoles which can.
>>9750768I think I played mario kart double dash on gamecube and I could press b when starting to play in PAL60 mode, before that I don't think I ever saw anything output that
>>9750768I was thinking of the older 2d consoles that made extensive use of dithering. The megadrive is a perfect candidate for pal-60 since its trivial to mod. Just need to install an additional 4.43Mhz Chrystal, and force the composite encoder to PAL mode.
>>9750768This is false. Every 6th gen PAL console can do PAL-60, even the Dreamcast
>>9750791PS2 outputs an NTSC signal when a PAL game is played at 60Hz. Not sure about the other consoles from that gen since I typically use progressive scan any way.
>>9750495Chads use RF for the single-cable ease of use.>the original HDMI
>>9750495Dot crawl makes my skin crawl. S-video at minimum.
>>9750578>however for retrogaming it's a huge meme and composite is more accurate>RGB, the universal standard for color, is less accurate than Never The Same Color TwiceI know you americans like to cope a lot but at least use actual reasons instead of nonsense to back it up
>>9750801My first exposure to NTSC, I almost vomited at how bad it looked.
>>9750826I'm a PALfag and so is all of my hardware.
>>9750829>>9750826>>9750768>>9750760PAL60 is exactly what it says, PAL, in 60hz (frames) with the same resolution, BUT in PAL color format, virtually any tv in europe made since the 90s/2000 can use it. BUT actual NTSC coloring (which only comes from places were NTSC is the standard) might not display correctly if used on a PAL tv (the color gets black and white if it's not compatible)
By default I play all games pixel-perfect but use a filter for certain games that uses a lot of dithering or fake transparencies.The Sonic games look great with raw pixels, so I think it's odd that the waterfalls are the go-to example for composite evangelism. You zip past them in seconds, it's not worth blurring the entire game for.
>>9750495I was against RGB for the longest time, then I realized after playing games using composite I feel slightly bad, maybe motion sickness? Nothing terrible, but I feel better after playing them on RGB. Given damage being done to entire game it's not worth it just for a few areas as anon said >>9750847Dithering on RGB (with CRT) generally looks pretty good. People try to find the worst examples as much as possible for making composite argument. It's basically false advertisement.>>9750698Many arcade cabinets (RGB) also had dithered text background. Console ports generally used bigger fonts because composite users can't read text with small font. So text boxes are the worst example you can give for composite.Anyone that could have used better displays connectors on computers or modded them in, did it in the past. No exceptions. Composite text is really hard to read.
I just play on emulator with gtuv50 shader on an LCD screen. It's good enough for me.
>>9750495S-video all the way.
>>9750495I can only enjoy 5th gen consoles and older by using composite. Composite is difficult to justify on 6th and 7th gen consoles, but s-video suffices.
>>9750818why do you keep bringing up americans , we had composite in PAL too, in fact almost nobody I know used full SCART RGB adapters except for PSX because everyone had imported bootleg copies and they wouldn't show up on PAL sets otherwise
>>9750845So if I plug an NTSC signal on a PAL tv and the image shows up in black and white does that mean it's running in 60hz?
rf for me
>>9750923Is there still some blending with S-Video or does that basically disappear with anything above composite?
>>9750495no, let me play with scart and vga
>>9750986some pal 50hz tvs are compatible with 60hz
For the real nostalgic experience.
>>9750986Some TVs support both formats. If it's black and white then it's definitely mismatched for your region and can be resolved with an RGB or component cable.
>>9750986the fact its an NTSC signal means it's running in 60Hz. If you can see the image then you've got a PAL tv that can handle 60 Hz signals, some PAL tv's dont in this case you'll see the image scrolling up or down continuously. Either due to the way NTSC transmits colour info it'll be in black an white, so you'll need an NTSC to PAL converter
>>9750995Some is there but most of it is gone. Depending on what you're trying to achieve, it can be a decent middle ground.
>>9750998>>9751008what I'm asking is if that video I'm seeing, despite missing colors, is still a 60hz signal>>9751010thanks anon, exactly what I asked
>>9751013Yes, it is. If your TV doesn't support 60Hz, the picture rolls.
>>9751015so that means it supports PAL60, right? With the correct PAL60 signal of course
>>9750818>It isn't accurate>The consoles natively outputted RGB & S-VHS and official cables were made by each respective manufacturerGotta love the yank cope.
>>9751017No guarantees until you actually try it, but it should work.
>>9750995Anything clearer than composite, dithering is ineffective. The water in Sonic and Shinobi III are two examples where the differences between composite and s-video are noticeable. Pic related is composite.
>>9751013>despite missing colors, is still a 60hz signali think, you can check that with ur phone camera, if you see a change on the black stripes then it is running at 60hz
>>9751038bro wtf is that shitty crt
>>9751046It's not the CRT, this is what Genesis looks like on the current MiSTer Genesis core with MikeS's y/c active adapter. It's the only console that looks like that.
>tfw your cables make literally everything look better, including the two games that consciously exploit composite blending, but there are two games that consciously exploit composite blending effects and they look slightly weird at parts that don't matter
>>9751053Genesis doesn't cause your CRT's convergence to suddenly go to shit.
>>9751059Oh you're referring to the convergence. It's a KV-27S42 and apparently this is what this set looks like.
The only console I use composite with is the Sharp Twin Famicom, and that's because it was the best it could output natively
>>9750976Because of all the >rgb is a meme>scart more like shartand composite is really just coping, except for a few systems which use blur for some effects it (just) might be a choice but there are most systems aren't that badly designed.
>>9751064It likely has convergence strips in there that you can fiddle with.
>>9750995On my TV for 240p S-Video basically just looks like component with shittier colors. If I was using an HDTV or maybe a PVM where you'd actually give a shit if you're using good component cables either you could probably tell a difference in sharpness and I never tried using it on my PS2 but it's the vast majority of the way there and turns PS1 games into pixel nightmares.
>>9751095It's been my experience as well, that the only real difference between s-vid and component is that the latter has better color separation and you can really only see that difference if they're side by side>>9751038I remember messing with the settings on my old TV as a kid to get this to happen intentionally, good times
>>9751079I think RGB is a meme because quality means nothing if the image is inaccurate, but I still use SCART, even through adapters.I don't even have a single tv that supports s-video, and wouldn't want to use it anyway, it's RGB but worse, at least RGB looks good most of the time
>>9751115>>9750517>>9750519>>9750578>>9750698>>9751038If RGB is innacurrate and composite is meant to be the way to play, than why did they make the consoles not just able to use RGB but also made cables for them?
>>9751138nobody ever used these, it doesn't matter
>>9751141Fake revisionist history, plenty of all AV forums up still to this day with old ass posts from the 90s. Showing that people used them, just because you were in your diapers in 1996 doesn't mean everyone was.
>>9750583Guess I'll get the VHS then. For the most part I don't watch movies unless it's DVD or VHS.
>>9751138Well, given that it's an accessory rather than a pack-in, it makes you wonder, doesn't it? When it comes to arcade perfect ports, Saturn and PS1 are the only ones that benefit from RGB, but everything designed for console or with compromises for the port will look best under composite.
>>9751141If no one ever used them, why bother to specifically make your system be able to use them?
I don't think it's worth blurring the fuck out of your game and introducing dot crawl just so you don't have to see the occasional dithering pattern. The trade off just doesn't make sense to me at allRGB all the way. And for the few times when RGB fucks with the color, there's almost always work arounds to get the composite color space when using RGB
>>9751224If you want blur and RGB just buy a low end tv with a Orion tube
>>9751224dot crawl really is the worst
If you're using a CRT, composite is 100% fine for 8bit/16bit. S-video is overkill, but a welcome improvement. RGB is marginally better. It has SLIGHTLY more vibrant colors. If the video is any sharper, I can't tell on any of the consumer sets I've tried with the Retrotink SCART to Component box. 5th gen S-video is mandatory. I've seen PS1 games over HD Retrovision PS2 component cables, that's the way to go. Getting a quality PS1/2/3 S-video cable is the same price as an OEM S-video cable. Saturn and Genesis share the same HD Retrovision cable with a $12 adapter so there's no excuse to S-video mod a Genesis. Also good Saturn S-video cables aren't made anymore. I'm not paying the autism tax on a VGA/HDMI box for the Dreamcast though. I'll gladly use S-video on that system.N64 is weird. The Universal RGB mod is way better than the NUS-001/NS1 mod because it has a deblur. The NUS-001/NS1 mod has MARGINALLY better colors, but looks otherwise indistinguishable. It costs so much to import, as well as being just as difficult to install as the HDMI mod that it's not worth it. You'll be paying through the nose to have someone install it for you, or you better have a lot of microsoldering experience. At that point spring for the HDMI mod, but is the N64s 30ish games worth $400? IMO, no.
>>9751053lmao get a real genesis
>>9751138did the Japanese have TVs with RGB Scart?
>>9751431Yes.
>>9751431>did the Japanese have TVs with RGB Scart?JP-21. It's based off SCART but if you plug JP-21 to SCART or vice versa it would fry the connector.I believe some European PS1 consoles also came with S-Video SCART. Don't know which models.
>>9751431you can see that japanese text on that box for a scart cable, right anon?
>>9750654No, but it is brutally rainbow banded on composite, and arguably looks worse. That screenshot of an emulator faking composite blur is not at all how it looks on hardware.
>>9750698Thats RGB/Component? Shows us with Composite.
>>9751138Doesnt composite and Bilinear sharp help to hide uneven pixels?
These threads are such good bait because acting like you have knowledge of "what the devs intended" when they havent spoken about what they intended themselves is peak arrogance. All console games were developed using computers on CRT monitors probably with VGA outpit. Whether the devs acommodated for how it would look on a consumer set being outputted by the console later was entirely up to their discretion, and its clear a lot of them didn't give a single shit or even bother to see how a consumer set changed how their game looks. Some did however. SNES is a really good example of this because many devs did not account for their game being stretched from the internal 8:7 resolution to a CRT's 4:3 resolution, but many devs DID account for this. Some games took composite dithering into account, some most likely did not.In reality /vr/heads care far more about this shit than most of the devs for the retro games we play did. If composite CRT is what looks best to you than use it, don't write autistic diatribes about how its "THE RIGHT WAY TO PLAY" because there just isn't one.
>>9751740For some SNES games there is discrepancy with title screen and gameplay measurements.They saw things on a VGA CRT monitor as you said. Even if they tried to taking things into account for composite, they would subconsciously make adjustments for VGA CRT look. So while you see waterfalls the way they intended with composite, you might not see the game the way they intended.
>>9751740The example you presented implies that CRTs display images using fixed pixels, which is incorrect. In fact, there is no universal standard for 4:3 among consumer television sets. Geometry, overscan, and a variety of other technical factors all contribute to 4:3 appearing differently across different sets. In terms of aesthetics, dithering and "jail bars" will always be intended to be blurred by composite or RF. It is entirely up to you whether you prefer crisper retro graphics or not.
>>9751740nigger watch behind the scenes videos for old games and you'd see that developers often had composite crt setups.....
>>9751960>behind the scenes videos for old gamesPost some. Sounds kino
>>9750495Excellent for 16 bit and consoles and below, the way devs intended for game visuals to be viewed.Absolutely required for PS1 to avoid that awful dithering on all your screen.For 6th gen consoles s-video and component are preferable but still ok if you have a decent late production CRT (which is when the aperture grille Sony patent expired and all TV manufacturers could use the technology royalty free).
>>9750517>s-video for 5th genNot for the PS1 and its awful dithering on all the screen. YOU MUST use composite and only composite on a PS1
>>9752135Trinitron patent expired in 1996, I have an aperture grille VGA monitor that came out right after.>>9752139Saturn also uses a lot of dithering because of how shit it is at transparency.
>>9750495composite on a consumer CRT, the only way to play.
>>9752147The dithering used on PS1 is build-in in its hardware and it's part of the rendering pipeline. It was put in place by Sony to minimize color banding by using composite color bleeding in its favor.I don't know if it's the same for the Saturn but the dithering you're refering specifically are textures purposely made by developers to simulate transparency which is a different aproach to the in-hardare solution on the PS1
>>9751960Yes OFTEN but not all the time>>9751951This has nothing to do with what I posted, the differences between displays do exist but would never be to the point where a circle would turn into an oval unless its incorrectly configured.
>>9750495composite easy to set up, I don't need to worry about needing a special TV, looks great and is cheap.
>>9750495i love component for PS2 tho,but for PS1 yea ill use composite.
>>9752162Saturn doesn't do full screen dithering itself like the PS1, it just has raw color banding in that situation (it looks like the early model Playstations in Tomb Raider but I'm not sure those things are directly related) instead. But there's a lot of use of things like dithered drop shadows that will be on screen literally all the time.
>>9750596>Genesis RGB is crystal clearno it isn't, it's noisy, which is why people do the triple bypass mod
>>9751649That's what composite looks like on SNES though
>>9750806>ease of useYou've clearly never used RF
>>9752387I have a decently sized crt. Not too big or small. It only supports mono for AV cables despite being stereo. Would the RF connector in the back allow me to play games in stereo?
>>9752468what do you mean?if a TV only supports mono AV that means the TV is mono, as in it only has one speakeryou can just get some external speakers though so it's a non issueand I'm pretty sure that RF is only Mono
>>9750495is there a way to plug these into modern speakers?
>>9752494The TV says stereo on it so I just figured it would be with an RF connector. Then again it has a built in VHS player so maybe the stereo sound only works for that. The last time I ever used a RF connection was for my N64 and that was many years ago.
>>9752494RF isn't, but the RF output on any console probably is. SNES and PS2 are both definitely mono over RF. Does leave another grey area for external RF modulators (particularly VCRs) but I can't see them generally doing MTS either.
>>9751876>>9751740>>9751951so am I just supposed to play SNES games on a scandoubled VGA CRT?
>>9752531Even PS2 games have a mix of shit that's a circle on a TV and a circle at 1:1 PAR. It's not like nobody play tested these games on a real console, if it was like that and nobody went back and changed it then it's Working as Intended as far as I care. The developers didn't mean to have performance issues and exploits or to cut a bunch of content and rewrite the plot either but that's part of the experience.
>>9752547I can understand that, however SNES's non-square pixels look dog ugly on low resolution LCD displays (for instance on portable emulation consoles), I'd rather play SNES on a CRT any day
>>9752531No.
>>9752531Completely missed the point of my post, play on what looks best to you.
>>9751740These consoles were based on 8x8 tiles, so a lot of the graphics tend to use a whole number of tiles. This is the case even if other aspects of the games graphics did take 4:3 into account. So large details spanning many tiles such as full screen images, and background art often did take 4:3 in account. But smaller features made from a few tiles like those bubbles or the blocks in mario, were fit exactly into a whole number of tiles. So its not so simple as to just look at the bubbles.
I only play NES with RF on a cheap early 80s consumer TV. The way its meant to be played
>>9752853>source: my assThere is no reason you couldnt take it into an account with small objects. Their tiles can simply be drawn differently.
>>9750517I dunno. PS1's dithering can be bad when you leave composite, but SNES Jr looks brilliant on S-video.
>>9753376It also depends on the game. Some Playstation games don't use dithering all that much. S-Video or RGB on those games can be glorious.
>>9752504That depends on your definition of 'modern.'If it's a shitty, $300 soundbar you're talking about, not directly, no.
>>9751960Just because you found one video where someone did is fucking meaningless. RGB scart is so much better than composite on CRT it's like playing a different system.
>>9753432Every dev tested on consumer TVs. Even as late as the late 2000s. They did develope on pro monitors, yes, but they always did testing on standard sets too.
>>9753514Unless you have proof of every dev doing this you cant say this, youre just making an assumption
>>9753518It's just how it was, bro. You always check to see what your game looks like using all available output types. I used to work on games back in the late 2000s - PS3 shit - and they still had us testing on bog standard composite sets.
>using dither on 2D gamesI patch that shit out
>>9753518Do you think literally no one was playing a game on real hardware before release
>>9753523That was the dev team you worked on that doesn't mean it was industry standard. Especially in Japan where theyre notorious for not giving a fuck about video quality.>>9753607Of course they did, that doesnt mean they all made acommodations or changes for how composite output looked, nor does it mean they tested every possible console output.
>>9753518are you seriously arguing that devs werent testing their games on the most common format at the time? fuck i need to get off 4chan, you people reach new levels of stupidity thought impossible.
>>9753620Thats not what I wrote at all, with your level of reading comprehension you fit right in with the stupidity here.
>>9753620Anon its not healthy to make up arguments that no one made, in your head to just be angry all the time.
>>9751960what if, it was only Infront of cameras...And they plugged a Scart the second the camera guy left
>>9751447>>9751448>>9751584interesting, I thought only euros had scart.so they had the best of both worlds.60Hz and RGB, lucky bastards
>>9753615>that doesn't mean it was industry standardIt absolutely was the standard. When you are in the business of making video products, it is the standard to test the display technology on which your customer will be viewing. I won't argue that every company met that standard, but it was the standard nonetheless.
>>9753751I think im done with this after this post since this argument is just going in circles but this is exactly what i'm trying to say. This is an industry where games are being made by wildly different companies with wildly different cultures and who all have different deadlines to hit. Games were made (and still are made) with lots of restrictions and are often pushed out unfinished to meet deadlines or budgets. Yes you SHOULD test on a consumer set and change your game's look accordingly, and you SHOULD take advantage of things like composite dithering when its what most comsumers will be playing on. all I'm saying is its very obvious a lot of devs didn't.
>>9753882I thought you were arguing that devs didn't test their shit on TVs with the standard cables included with the console. That was the standard I was referring to - not the use of composite artifacting to create gradients and such, which I agree was common but not ubiquitous.
>>9752872The NES is natively composite
The only actual benefit of crt is that some people need that extra smoothness from crt pc monitors... Not shit crt TVs.CRT pc monitors with high refresh, high resolution can be good to game onShaders can get you 95% of the way there with the look of crt
>>9754530lol
>>9750495Looks great
>>9751584Lol. Nothing funnier than a snarky fuck being wrong. Doesn't say SCART anywhere on that box in any language because it's a different standard.SCART is not a generic synonym for RGB and just because a connector looks the same doesn't mean it's wired the same way.
>>9755463Well consider me blown the fuck out.
>>9751740>they havent spoken about what they intended themselves is peak arroganceThey have.>All console games were developed using computers on CRT monitorsIncorrect. >probably with VGA output. Incorrect
>>9755463The first line of Japanese says SHART
>>9755671On the off-chance you aren't fucking around, it says:セガサターン>Sega Saturn21ピン>21 pinRGBケーブル>RGB Cable
>>9755887Dude, I was joking about the saturn being a shart, but I'm not joking about this. You need to see a doctor right away. Your autism levels are dangerously high.
>>9755526>All console games were developed using computers on CRT monitors>IncorrectThat point is correct. What else do you think they dev'd on other than CRT monitors attached to computers? You do know that video games are computer software, right?
>>9756327Depends on how you define “computer”But no they didn’t use standard PC’s with PC monitors
>>9756763Most consoles up to I think some of the 6th gen did this
>>9751740And your post is a great example of such bait. Fortunately, when zoom zooms talk about what grownups did long before they were born they usually out themselves as clueless children. Most oldfags here have at least seen old dev setups and many even own some. And, of course, kidshit like "internal 8:7 resolution" is always a dead giveaway.
>>9751979>>9753432>>9753518>>9753432Picture was from Konami, here's sega team in 2007 using composite on a consumer trinitron. This was standard for all developers.ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOdbCCWhjAo
In the vid they're using some massive splitter with multiple composite setups going into it, also shows it on other setups
may i remind you this was literally 2007 btw... this was clearly industry standard for testing. This is coming from a pal fag that uses rgb btw lmao
>>9756226I knew you probably were, which is why I said "on the off chance."Also was posting for the benefit of others that might take your post at face value.SCART misinformation and disinformation cannot be tolerated.
I didn't play with that shit even back in the 90s when my consoles were new.Why would people use that garbage when s-video cables were available? I'm not talking just available to video enthusiasts, they were right there on store shelves next to the consoles.And in Europe RGB over SCART was available. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't use that, if people were using it back in the day.I told people back then that they were idiots for playing with a garbage composite signal and still tell people that.
>>9753762Am I? I'm just enjoying myself playing games with a crisp and colourful video output.
It just looks so terrible on a normal tv. I remember when my parents got their first hd tv in around 06, my dad bought me component cables for my Wii after seeing how shitty it looked on that tv
>>9757312Trinitron technology was created to take advantage of the RGB signal. these are two French inventions, Sony had bought the exclusivity until 2005.
>>9750495Best way to play is proper emulation on a real 15kHz CRT via RGB and a composite filter. Benefits of composite without needless loss of quality.
I'm tired of this shit! You examinations of how poorer image signals improve blending doesn'T matter! You alway but your fucking noses right up the screen taking marco prictures of CRTs. Nobody plays like that. You sit back from the screen far enough that you don't notice it all that much and in realiy all that remains is a better looking image with nicer colors and clearer visuals.
>>9757994See >>9757858
>>9757994You get wrong colours and if you’re sitting far away from your CRT it’s dumbAlso some pixels are used to blend in the same way paint is>inb4 zoomed in imageHave you tried uploading images of a CRT?The closer you are the better it works, besides, take a page from your own post and back away from the image
>>9758049>You get wrong colours and if you’re sitting far away from your CRT it’s dumbWut? Are you actually retarded? Also stop talking about analog visuals and actual hardware while posting pictures of a fucking emulator, ok? Beyond stupid.
>>9758056>emulatorWhat?Also wtf does an emulator even have to do with the display
>>9758072>Also wtf does an emulator even have to do with the displayno idea, people still think you can't use real CRT TVs with emulators for some reason
This thread is giving everyone cyberpsychosis. You chooms need to relax and just accept that composite is an option that outputs an image people desire. Just delta out of this thread if it bothers you before MaxTac gets called in.
>>9757994>I need the sharpest picture so I can sit 50' away where I can't see itAbsolutely retarded. You may as well just use RF if you're going to need binoculars to tell the difference.
>>9758656You can't tell the difference on a 32 inch CRT from a normal sitting distance like 3 meters between RF, composite and RGB? Really? Maybe you need glasses.
>>9757839>rinitron technology was created to take advantage of the RGB signalTrinitrons were invented to be... color picture tubes. >Sony had bought the exclusivity until 2005.The word you're looking for is "patent". Sony's patent ran out in 1996, not 2005. Why do you just make shit up that is well documented?
>>9758686>sitting 3m awayLol, I guess you’re using wireless controls
>>9757791We're talking about the use of composite on CRT set you dingus. Of course compisite will look like absolute shit on a HDTV.
>>9754874it does even if it doesn't always come across on photos.
>>9760067this doesn't look composite
>>9760071PMVs are almost magical - even the tiniest cheapest ones have incredible sharpnessA good photo setup doesn't hurt either, I only used my phone with an app to control the shutter speed but I imagine a dedicated digital camera can make it look better
>>9760079PVM's don't usually have a comb filter at allnor do they have slot masksare you sure this isn't S-video on another brand other than Sony
>>9760084nope, small JVC PVM with only composite input and mono audio (reason I got it cheap)unmodded n64 with official composite cablemade me throw RGB mod plans out the window. I started with RF anyways, composite is already a huge step up
>>9760071Nah you can tell it's composite off the bat. Most likely you're being thrown off by the glow on the protruding bezel. Pic related, also composite
>>9760117I'm thrown off by the lack of red blur and lack of dot crawl
>>9760119Here's another composite for you, same TV just different console and different colors being displayed.
>>9760124see now that one does
>>9760119there is no dot crawl at 240p unless the console (like a genesis model 1) has shitty composite.
>>9760132that's not how that works anonI can only assume that it's because of how small your set is which makes it less apparent
>>9760084I just looked around and couldn't find a list of which PVMs have a comb filter. I think the L series does but not sure. M2 has a setting called 358 trap but I suppose that's different.Anyway from personal experience, composite looks better on L2 than M2. When I had a L5 it was even better looking, probably best composite signal I've ever seen.
>>9759696not anon but who doesn't have controller extension cables?
>>9760160they usually don't have comb filters because these are professional monitors for broadcastingany comb filter was usually in the big signal switchers they used
>>9760171most people
>>9760178Source: your ass. I bet you're that same euro that keeps shitting things up around here.Anyway L5 comb filter confirmed. Looked excellent in person too. Guess I'll be the one to compile the list.
>>9760203an exception is not the rule
>>9760210You're wrong, admit it. I confirmed via official Sony manuals that the L series and M series all have it. (M2, M4, L1, L2, L5)Those are the most common models of PVM, anything else is significantly older and not as common. If you have a different model you can check the user manual and tell me.
>>9760210Okay I checked some older models as well. They have a comb filter too.
>>9750495genesis dithering sonic 2 waterfalls etc.
All of this bickering won't change the fact that RGB signals are available on stock, unmodified consoles, and the capability was put there with the intention of customers using it, and customers bought and used official RGB cables directly from the console manufacturer.Every game developer either knew, or absolutely should have known about the fact that a portion of their customers will be using RGB.So you can say you prefer composite if you want, but imagine going back in time and trying to convince someone of the era to give up their awesome RGB signal because composite supposedly looks better, or because some devs are using composite cables from their development systems. Good fucking luck. It was better then and it's better now.
>>9760482Nintendo removed component from the Gamecube because it had a <1% attach rate in 2004 and you think people were bothering with RGB in 1995? They made them because there's SCART only TVs and RGB only arcade monitors and shit.
>>9760508NTA Component was a new technology compared to RGB. On top of it there's no reason to think Nintendo made the right call with that decision. GC was a series of terrible decisions. Why use a failed console as a benchmark for this?Tech enthusiasts in 1995 obviously knew about RGB.
>>9760508Why does that matter?It was a stock feature that was deliberately put in certain consoles with the intention of being used, and developers had no excuse not to know that when they were making their games.If people didn't want to give it a try and see its benefits for themselves, that was their loss, but it doesn't mean they were somehow playing more correctly.The fact remains, if you play like that today, you are playing in a 100% true-to-history way. Whether you prefer it aesthetically... that's up to you.
>>9760521Yeah the benefit of games looking like someone stuck a checkerboard over my screen. You can also play with Gameshark and a turbo controller on a 2.6" watch LCD and it's period accurate.>>9760520Read the entire sentence before you waste my time with a horrendously low quality reply.
>>9760546I hear you. At least, I can respect you so long as you keep the arguments like that one. If your arguments are purely based on your aesthetics, then so be it. You like what you like. I can't make you have good taste.I just have a problem when some people go beyond aesthetics and make the completely false claim that it's in any way more authentic or correct to play with composite.
>>9760558The thing is it depends not on just the content but how the output itself is filtered. Like on a Wii I don't even see the point in playing Sonic 2 on component because the composite is already immensely sharper than a shit model Genesis while still doing the meme blurring. (which by the way is on a lot more than just waterfalls) But there are other scenarios on that console where if you can't turn off trap filtering that you get ugly rainbows and the difference in anti-aliasing from a consumer TVL CRT itself and the component signal isn't that big anyways. Some hi-res undithered PSX games look good on high end connections while a lot others are absolute eye cancer, it's just not until 6th gen you can reliably get good results because almost everything native defaults to 480i with high color depth.
>>9760583Fair enough, if composite was how you played back in the day. For me, even in the 90s, I played with s-video or better the moment it became a stock signal that was available to me.I got curious, tried them both, and it was absolutely no contest to my eyes. I knew which one I preferred by a strong margin.And this is as a know-nothing kid with a little pocket money to spend on new cables at Radio Shack or EB Games. This was a completely normal experience and was absolutely a significant minority of players.And ultimately, it's what I'm nostalgic for. It's what makes me remember the old days.Now imagine what it's like when I peek at a thread like this and see snots who are barely out of diapers tell me that nobody played that way and it's not an authentic experience of the era. It's a complete joke of an opinion. I've seen that they're wrong with my own eyes.
>>9760558>I can't make you have good taste.pretentious faggot
>>9760594>I played with s-video or better the moment it became a stock signal that was available to me>I peek at a thread like this and see snots who are barely out of diapers tell me that nobody played that way and it's not an authentic experience of the era>he didn't have a black and white faux wood panel dial TV from the 60's in his room with a Super Nintendo hooked up via RFGonna be honest, it was really fun to inverting the image by fucking around with the brightness/contrast dials.
>>9760607How did you figure it out?Did your dad call and tell you he's riding my cock right now?
>>9760610>black and whiteI doubt that, but RF absolutely was the most common connection for gaming well into the 90’s
>>9760615>Did your dad call and tell you he's riding my cock right now?That's kinda gay anon
>>9760618>>black and white>I doubt thatYou doubt that I had the worlds shittiest hand-me-down TV from my grandmother's kitchen?
>>9750495Already taken, fren.All these RGB niggers defacing precious consoles with unnecessary modifications should be beaten half to death with an Atari 5200.
>>9760664agreed.Thank fuck for SCART then, so I have a choice.
Goofy as shit, I knowBut has anyone had experience with these hdmi to crt converters? Common in places where people still have crt that 3rd world alshit countries like brazilI want to emulate some old games and use this converter to play on a crt. This is the cheapest but there is a 70 buck one on Amazon that is apparently super great and is the only one that supports 480i output
>>9761036I might have had a stroke shit talking Brazil, sorry.But I'm primarily interested in these for retro emulation. Buying up retro games is just too pricey now for a lot of the good titles and I'd rather emulate since I can easily get English patches for games like ffv and such.
>>9761036Just watch which resolutions it supports. It might take in 480p at minimum for example.
>>9761036Try, if it doesn't work, return. That's the great thing about Amazon. No questions asked returns.
>>9761036You would be better off buying an original Wii and modding it. Wii outputs native 240p and has excellent composite output. I've done side by side comparisons of Genesis games on real hardware vs on Wii and the difference is negligible. I think it actually even looks better on the Wii.
>>9761105The Wii composite is miles better than the genesis, but it’s still shit against real hardware, especially when it comes to the audio
>>9761254It was about component not composite
>>9761259Then say componentEven still, unless you are going to mod the original system with cleaner video output the Wii will look better
The pure autism in this thread has convinced me that OP is actually correct. Just use composite and play video games.
>>9760508>Nintendo removed component from the Gamecube because it had a <1% attach rate in 2004Did it ever occur to you that it was removed because Nintendo were retarded in making a proprietary cable that could only be purchased from their online store, and that there were still Gamecube games that supported 480p even after they removed the digital output?
Don't have to because I always used it.
Idk how accurate this is but this makes me think RGB is the way to go. Hover over the images to see the differences https://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/rgb_compare2.html
>>9761860I hate how overly sharp RGB is looks like someone just turn sharpness all the way up on the TV, S-video, component and HDMI don't have that issue.
>>9761860No amount of editorializing from whoever wrote this can hid that composite was the way to go.RGB
>>9761860>>9761912Composite
>>9761912RGB looks better. Compare them using an RGB CRT filter
>>9761938>RGB looks better.Nope. Here' RGB>Compare them using an RGB CRT filterYou mean play with raw pixels, which I've done enough back before I noticed how composhit is essential.
>>9761950>>9761938forgot pic
>>9761903>>9761912Yeah I can get same effect turning the sharpness on my CRT all the way up.
>>9761953And now composhit. There's simply too much dithering in RGB that was clearly meant to be blended.
Before glasses>>9761964After glasses>>9761953Composite is going blind simulator
>>9761986Right
>>9761986Wrong.RGB is just raw pixels you can get for free on an emulator
Look at all this work and extra hardware when you can just use an emulator. Baffling.
>>9762054this, emulation on a crt tv, win win
I think a better debate would be S-Video vs Composite. Eitherway, RGB fags are too invested in being right rather than actually discussing the contrasts of dithering effects on a clean signal vs a decayed signal.
>>9758049I will admit composhit looks better in that pic, but I will still choose rgb in 95% of cases.
>>9762123There really isn't much difference between S-Video and RGB. The main reason to use it is if your hardware supports it, because you're european or have a special monitor. Otherwise you don't lose much by dropping to S-Video.The competition is between composite or RGB/S-Video, not between RGB and S-Video.
Next retrotink should be able to take all of the signals from rgb and cram them through one wire so you can choose to have that kind of look depending on the game or display
>>9762134>>9762123S-video still uses either NTSC or PAL and thus has worse colouring
>Arcade gamesRGB.>4th genDepends on the game. Mostly composite if the game uses too much dithering or has a simples art style. RGB or S-Video if the game is colorful and detailed.>5th genComposite for 3D games. 2D games same as above, except for arcade ports.>6th genRGB only.>>9757858Based. Actually a very good alternative.>>9760117Is this really a consumer set?
>>9762190>S-video has worse colouringMarginally. I did an RGB mod on my N64 hoping it would be the silver bullet to get that system looking good on a modern TV. My disappointment was immeasurable. I noticed zero difference in image clarity. I think reds were a little bit deeper. Overall, a complete waste of an afternoon, $25 for the kit and $75 on the cable.
>>9762209>n64cherrypicking, any other system the difference is day and night
>>9750583>would suggest for all you guys out there to get your hands on one of the few fan edits people have made that take the blu-ray, and put the mono mix back in, with the option for the 5.1 if you want (like the official releases SHOULD DO).is there a name and a link? im interested
>>9762203>consumer setNah, it's a panasonic color video monitor. Pretty high TVL count for its size, but I haven't lied about all of these shots being off composite. Helps that I'm using a decent phone camera close up to the screen for these pictures.
>>9762123S-video is worse than both. Lacks the clarity of RGB but also the shitiness of composite to blend artifacts. >>9762219>cherrypicking, any other system the difference is day and nightSNES RGB is either blurry or on later 1-chip models it's too contrast-y and blown out.
>>9762229Those look pretty good over composite. It's actually amazing how vibrant the colors look compared to a consumer set.
>>9762229Nice. I have the BT-H1450y. Good little monitors. Does your screen flash green (or red/blue) when you power yours on?
>>9750845>since the 90s/2000 can use itI suspect that most tvs made before that can display PAL60 as well. Even with no explicit support for 60hz, the vertical oscillator should still respond to the faster vsync pulses. It would result in the same squished image that 50hz has, but it should sync.I would love to see a study on this. If someone has a lot of older and vintage PAL tvs, it would be interesting to see which ones would work with PAL60.
>>9762249Mine never does that, it shows blank until I turn on the game >>9762235It was actually dying for a while and I had it serviced by a professional repairman, apparently it was a combination of the power circuit going bad and capacitors dying. Here's a shot of what it looked like before I had it serviced, very dim and it looks low quality here.
>>9762318welp, probably something weird going on then. I'll have to take a closer look. Picture looks great once up and running though.
>>9762209Oof, yeah, the N64's image quality is marred more by the shitty blur filter that's laid on top, which can only ever look decent on a CRT.
>>9762563I wonder how raw looks on a CRT.
>>9762124I took that pic and I play my SNES with RGB.
Composite looked like shit and I fucking hate "retro" posers claiming it didn't.
>>9762790>posersthe only one posing here is people like you that make dumb claims like yours
>>9762563all four look fine. you have autism
>>9762798She's right. Composite looks like ass outside of 2D titles.
>>9762790It sometimes can look decent depending on which console
>>9763145literally me
>>9763145Time for glasses anon
I finally did it: I achieved SOUL
I have nothing else to fight for, this is peak accuracy
Finally the background doesn't look like ass
>>9751007Oh man, that was my first set up with my SNES on an old Zenith CRT set that had the two knobs in the front with no remote. I remember having to switch the channel output to 4 instead of 3 to get a slightly better looking picture. Incredibly soulful.
>>9757858That's what I did after giving up on trying to get composite signal from my gpu
>>9764145Absolutely based
>>9763774
>>9756226>Your autism levels are dangerously high.>projecting this hard
>>9764258Ngl it really looks like real CRT.
While on the subject of composite, are there any third parties that make reproduction composite only cables for consoles that are just as good, if not better than the originals that don't hug on to the connecting jack with a gorilla grip with the quality that Retrovision and Retro Access pump out with their YPbPr and RGB cables?
>>9764378Original composite cables are hardly rare for most consoles because they were included with the console and don't normally wear out, Sony produced like 100 million Playstation AV cables for PS3s that nobody is using.
>>9764378Get the thickest possible yellow cablethinner ones often have more noise
>>9764909>not getting the shittiest composite cable that introduces noise to recreate the look of RFSouless
>>9764953correct, I don't want RF
>>9764953If I'm going to do that, I might as well use real RF attached to a working vintage TV complete with wood console for maximum SOUL.
>>9762790your tastes are not my problem
>>9765086cataract
Guys, I just want the best quality video output (and maybe audio too) within reason for my Sega Genesis model 2 (US version).What on earth do I want? Something like this (?):https://www.hdretrovision.com/genesisOr do you know of something better? I see the "composite pill" at the top of this thread but I dunno. Please hold my hand and walk me through it.I found my Sega Genesis model 2 & Sega CD model 2 and I want that "composite blend" for water effects and such.
>>9765191>I want that "composite blend" for water effects and such.Then you use a composite cable. >Guys, I just want the best quality video output (and maybe audio too) within reason for my Sega Genesis model 2 (US version).Then you use the component cable.No you don't get to have both. You have to decide which you value more.
>>9765191rf
>>9765198>you don't get to have bothYou can, if you mod the console to output PAL60
>>9765198So, which is the best video quality for the Sega Genesis?>>9765205Not sure if sarcasm so please clarify.
>>9765262>Guys, I just want the best quality video output (and maybe audio too) within reason for my Sega Genesis model 2 (US version).>Then you use the component cable.
My first console was gamecube. I was playing oot through my retrotink 5x the other day and the shitty, blurry, pukey looking game I had known actually looked okay. I'd only ever played it on lcd panels. Fire actually looked like real fire and not a bunch of pixels for example. The textures were sharp. The point is, I think having scanlines and/or some kind of mask already does a lot of the work on creating the effects that artists were setting up. Composite noises up the entire screen. So just for me, it's a struggle to imagine when I would bother digging out a composite cable unless every single thing in game had dithering on it
I unironically use both composite and RGB. I have an old consumer set that I play consoles on with RF (Fami) and composite, but a larger pro set that I use with RGB. Get tired of the crisp picture? Play on the consumer CRT. Starting to get bored with the blur? Back to pro.For reference, I was born in the late 80s and used RF into the N64 era.
>>9765393I use composite and RGB, but ironically.
>>9765262>Not sure if sarcasm so please clarify.i just think genesis looks really good with the fuzziness of rf. same with nes.
>>9751138An accessory sold separately and there was evidently a non-zero demand for them. So, irrelevant
>>9765925Again, so why did they purposely made it natively compatible with every console since the 4th gen if there was no demand hmm?
>>9765624So composite into a BVM, and RGB into a modded consumer TV from the 80s?
>>9765930N64 - S-vid at bestPS1 - RGB but no componentPS2/GameCube - component but no RGBcomponent would've caught on eventually but it was killed by HDMI and digital LCD screens
>>9765948>component would've caught on eventually but it was killed by HDMI and digital LCD screensComponent was used on early LCD screensHDMI only really took off around when the PS3 came around
>>9765951>Component was used on early LCD screensNo shit, obviously. It was included so that they could accept analog signals for older stuff. Stuff that originally expected a CRT.Quickly they realized it was pointless to connect two pieces of fundamentally digital equipment through analog. Thus they cut out the middle man and HDMI was born. I guess because DVI couldn't handle audio and people really want there to just be only one plug.
>>9765921I’m going to try RF, component, and composite to see which I like best for the Genesis/Sega CD.
>>9765948You didnt awnser my question fuck face
>>9765624I use RF ironically, but composite and RGB unironically.
American cope: the thread.
>>9766115has nothing to do with anything anonI have RGB SCART which I use for 6th gen but everything before I use composite because it looks better to me and the colours are more accurate
>>9766118yes it has. proof i already posted this ITT and some copper reported it. touché. composite looks shit and composhite apologist are in the boat as PAL apologists. you have shit taste.
Composite is sick, Svideo is sick, RGB is sick, component is sick, rf is sick.They all have unique qualities that make them cool. What matters is the games.
>>9764258just a LITTLE too blurrybut actually kinda good
>>9766795>>9763774Here's another, not perfect but pretty decent. A bit crazy on the rainbow artifacting.
>>9750806>pin bent>ring won't turnnothing personnel, kid
>>9766980go ahead songive em the sauceit really is the best ive seen in a long time
>>9766995uh you literally can make these cords anonmy pops worked for various cable companies\satellite companies i always had decent quality custom length cords with gold connectorsquality splitters\summing headers also
I can't go back to composite if I have the option to use S-video or component. I played a PS2 over S-video for the first time in the 2010s and felt like I had just put on corrective lenses. So much less blurry!
>>9767063i think it really depends on the game and tvsome titles really took advantage of bloom\blurother games look fine even as razorsharp pixels on a 75" its all subjective i guess until you intentionally swing one way or the other too far
>>9766787your preferences are not my problem
>>9767063That's ok since 6th gen console games didn't relied (at least not as much as previous gens) on the color bleeding and general fuzziness of composite to creat new effects and extender color pallets.I stil think composite is ok for 6th gen consoles but S-video and component are much preferable in those cases.
>>9766795is this actually what composite looks like with the genesis?I've never seen one, but I thought the rainbows in the shaders were exaggerated
>>9769363It doesn't look quite that badI think that anon has a little bit of convergence issues
>>9752181> 32" CRT> Component for the PS2> S-Video for the Sega Saturn> Everything else I emulate on the PCezpzI'm buying a 65" 4K TV from a friend who is moving to a different state next month. I'm not even going to bother with getting any HDMI converters because I know both consoles are going to look like complete blurry dogshit on it. I'll probably just put the old TV and both consoles in my bedroom.
>>9767063I wouldn't play ps2 on composite either, The only reason I play PSX on composite is for 2D games, otherwise I'll play on RGB
Here's a bit of a weird question, but this seems like the right thread to ask: are blacks and whites crushed on a CRT? I ask because there's a shader called TVOut-Tweaks with a setting called TV Color Levels that makes the image output in Limited Range (what CRTs are purported to be), so 16-235 instead of full range 0-255 like on monitors. This appears to cause some clipping of blacks and whites, but the colors overall look more vivid. Is this accurate to real hardware on a CRT, though? A good place to check is the out-of-bound areas in FFVI.This is how it looks without TV Color Levels enabled (OOB area looks gray, compared to the overscan area, which is black).
>>9771419And same shot, with TV Color Levels enabled. Now the OOB area is fully black. So I want to know if this is how it's "meant" to be, or perhaps if it differs depending on whether you're using composite or S-video over RGB.
>>9771419>are blacks and whites crushed on a CRT>because there's a shaderCRT's blast light, there is no light when it's black so no, there is no crushed blacks if calibrated correctly
>>9771443Perhaps I worded it wrongly. I'm asking specifically about colors in the high and low ranges specifically, and whether they're clipped on real hardware outputting to a CRT. What that shader does results in color clipping, and I'm asking if that's what's actually supposed to happen, since that shader purports to mimic a CRT's limited color range.Here's the 240p Suite color bars with TV Color levels turned on. Again, note the clipping at the leftmost and rightmost ends. Does this happen using real hardware on a CRT? That is what I want to know.
>>9771498ffs forgot pic
>>9771502>CADEN>VHIJE
>>9750583>>9751163Where does one find magnet links for vhs/og movie rips? It took me ages to get Dragonball z in 4:3 and even now I'm not sure i ended up with that the whole way through or not. Funny enough teen titans was originally made in 16:9, it was just broadcast in 4:3
>>9771498Are you asking if it's limited colour space on real hardware or colour on RGB vs compositeThe CRT isn't a factor as I've stated it blasts light and if calibrated correctly will not crush blacks
>>9771590Yes, forgive my relative ignorance on the subject. Like you say, in all likelihood the CRT probably shouldn't be a factor, so perhaps it's more a question of NTSC output in composite vs pure RGB, if that makes any sense. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this, and whether that shader is at all worth using for purposes of color correction or whatever.
>>9771628I can't say for you, but one of the reasons I use composite is because of colour correctionIt is usually very obvious with brown/red colours and blue/purple colours like in your pic
