What are your thoughts on old school pixel art looking different on old CRT tvs and modern displays?Do you think games emulating pixel art or outright emulators of old titles style should always have a filter for modern displays to make it look like old CRT?
Listen, I totally GET it after having it explained to me multiple times, but at the end of the day I still like my pixels to be crunchy and sharp. Call me a zoomer faggot if you like (because I know you will), that's just my preference.
>>9597691op hereI'm on the sharp pixel side here, it's my personal preference.But I gotta admit that I discovered this trend back when I was actually selling people some raspberry pi imitations loaded with emulators, they DEMANDED to have that shit lmao.Technically I'm millennial borderline zoomer, depending on what generation chart you look at (I'm '95)
Gen X here and I like sharp pixels too. As soon as LCD screens came out, I never wanted to use a blurry CRT again.
>>9597747would you explain why so many xoomers bitch about the CRT blurry look?
I like the CRT filters but I dislike when my screenshots have them on, if that makes sense.
personally i don't like the crt look but after learning about sharp pixels, i can't say i like em much eithera basic bilinear filter gets the job done, still looks like the games how i remember em without bein all jaggy
>>9597671I like blurry pixels because it's what I remember the games looking like when I was a kid. I'm either the oldest zoomer or the youngest millennial but I had a small CRT in my bedroom while growing up and I had a SNES, N64, and Gamecube hooked up to it through composite and I remember what it looked like pretty well because I played on that thing until I moved out of my parents house. I remember when he got our LCD TV and I was excited to play some games on it because it was a bigger screen so I hooked up my N64 and played Pokemon Stadium and it looked so fucking terrible that I never wanted to play old games on it.I do actually play on a modern TV but I connect all of my consoles through a RetroTink 5X and I adjust the settings per console to find the ideal look. There's a lot of shitty CRT filters in RetroArch but I think the custom options that exist on the RetroTink are actually really good and can produce a nice image. I'm excited to see where they go with this in the future with the 4K model because it's really pretty convincing. My friend has a PVM and I've even fooled him with pictures of it.Raw pixels are better than nothing and I put up with it for a long time before picking up the RetroTink but it's not my preference.
>>9597671is there a filter that properly emulates the effect in this pic?if a minute difference in color results in such a drastic brightness gap how distorted would modern pixel art meant to be viewed on an lcd panel look like?
>>9597671I think you should either play on a CRT or emulate unfiltered at integer scale. Filters are wacky.
An emulator emulates the console's output. A filter to simulate a CRT is not part of the emulator's main function and must always be optional. Also nobody gives a fuck how YOU like it. More often than not, people will not agree with your preferences however, so if your goal is sharing footage, the obvious solution would be for the emulator to capture the "raw" signal in addition to whatever post-processing you apply.
>>9598219Thanks for that redpilled pic.
I just use the simple bilinear filter.
>>9597671Used to go with sharp pixels, but I'm appreciating the crt style more and more recently.Things like Composite or svideo filters are pure garbage, but the pure crt look as in your screenshots definitely adds something to 2d art
>>9597758Zoomer here. I used to play PSone and PS2 on my CRT a lot when I was a kid. Then time passed and eventually I got a LCD. To this day I remember my first impression of it. I tuned in on a cartoon channel and was immediately disgusted by how ugly SD content looked on a LCD. I think people who complain about the blurry look must've used some HD console on it or had a really shitty set.
Give me Super 2xSal or give me death
>>9597671the right looks like plain bright dogshit. the left has shadow, depth, softening of edges and blended color.
>>9597691zoomer faggot if you like>>9597758They don't actually remember what CRT screens looked like, they base this assertion in watching VHS feeds on youtube and thinking everything looked like that.
>>9598506Forgot to mention but the blurriness they bitch about too is also a fault of NTSC. PAL (I'm not talking about games strictly, so control your autism) was much more clearer. Nobody who was watching television in PAL regions thought "oh boy, this is blurry as shit!".
CRT was never blurry. You could see the pixels of NES and SNES games, only they weren't unpleasantly sharp like they look on raw emulation on LCD screens. It was more like the vivid colors bled into each otherBlur was such a non-issue that Nintendo added a screen blur effect on top of the image for N64 and GameCube and no one complained, it looked great. Looks extra shitty on modern LCD though, maybe that's one of the reasons they have such reputation. These modern emulation crt shaders look like crap too. And seeing photos and videos of CRTs displayed on an LCD screen doesn't do it justice either.It might sound like autism but it's just the way things are. I'm not too bothered about it, I emulate stuff with old school filters and don't bother with real hardware too much these days but that's how I remember it, and I was playing real hardware on a CRT daily as late as 2012. I guess one of the reasons I emulate now is that real hardware look so awful on LCD.
>>9597671some studios even took advantage of the composite color shifts to introduce colors that couldn't be available on the game engine.while not every studio drawn shit specifically to be scaled on CRT it was a thing.i personally don't like big squares and i'd rather filter them but to each their own and fuck autists who can't tolerate different tastes
>>9598219>must always be optional.>mustYou should kill yourself for suggesting that you have the right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my video games.
>>9598558>CRT was never blurry.There were many, many CRTs manufactured across decades and some were blurry and some were not and you're an intentionally disingenuous child trying to mandate your own preferences if you suggest all CRTs looked one specific way.
Sometimes I check out CRT filters on a game just to see how it looks, but I always inevitably go back to raw pixels.
>>95976715th gen and below should be always played with a CRT shader.6th gen is a bit more tricky. There are a lot of different case like prerendered background or draw distance lod details but they could sometimes be patched. Its case by case but if it works without issues ideal is high res rendering with no shader.Handhelds should always be color corrected. Low res LCD shader or CRT shader would depend on the person I'd say.
You will take the CRT pill once you play a PS1 JRPG with prerendered backgrounds using the AI enhancement scam that's the equivalent of taking a really nice painting and smearing paint all over it and letting dry on top. Donkey Kong Country is a good example. CRT let's you see the level for what it versus a pixelated mess. Also I'm a 22 year Zoomer that recently realized how messy retro games look on an LCD and how they were designed for CRT. The old Resident Evils are another great example
>>9598663>Also I'm a 22 year ZoomerYou didn't need to add that, the rest of your post made it obvious.
>>9598665Overly-concerned with how a game looks rather than just having fun.
>>9598663Using RGB defeats the entire point of what you are trying to achieve with a CRT, on a PVM no less. Looks the same as an LCD but with black lines
>>9598670That's not true. I just like being authentic and having an immersive experience, and having a pixelated mess takes away from the image. I'm all about quality, so I want to experience a game the best way possible. I also hate modern games despite them having really "good graphics". I also grew up with mainly a SNES, GBC, GBA, and OH Xbox. I still think those consoles have cooler looking games with better art directions despite hardware restrictions compared to today's mess. Not all Zoomers are stupid. Just 98 percent of them
>>9598683If that photo is yours then you're one of the 98%
>>9598684It's not. Just found an example on google
Original hardware is always going to be better than software. Emulators aren't going to ever really capture the intended hardware look so I don't think obsessing over scanlines or filters has any point.Also, crunchy pixels is *fine*. Its not accurate or retro or whatever, but the artstyle itself is allowed to exist.
>>9598694No, I will be enjoying my 60fps patches
>>9598674On a PVM, maybe. Although the background still looks miles better than on a LCD.But I disagree about the RGB usage. It depends a lot on the game, remember arcade cabinets used RGB signal.For me, S-Video is the sweet spot for 2D games. Not too sharp, but not lacking in color like composite. 3D games composite is usually better.
>>9598698>the healthbarYeah, I'm using composite.
>>9598635It being an OPTION means you always CAN, idiot. You MUST kill yourself.
>>9598674There isn't much difference between s video and RGB. If you were serious about tech back then you would have known about s video.>>9598708Not all dithering is for composite.>>9598670We don't use the same hardware. You have to be concerned. By your point playing games in black and white is same as color TV
>>9598716>There isn't much difference between s video and RGB. If you were serious about tech back then you would have known about s video.I was arguing for composite>Not all dithering is for compositeShow me the blended dithering in that Street Fighter screenshot
>>9598683How does it feel to be the biggest contrarian on this planet?
>>9597671I guess not so many artists knew tricks on how to use crt bleeding, especially during the mega drive\snes era.
>>9598638I have played on dreadful old 3rd world TV's with RF cables and it was never an issue and never as bad as crt shaders make it look like. And why would anyone play games filtered to look like the cheapest, worst tv's the 70's were able to produce? Even poor people had better standards in the 90's.
>>9597671It depends on the game.The Mario and Sonic games look great with sharp pixels imo, but something like Kolibri or games with heavy use of prerendered images need some kind of filtering to look right.
>>9598723>I was arguing for compositeI know I was arguing for RGB CRT shaders.>Show me the blended dithering in that Street Fighter screenshotIt doesn't need to be blended. That's my point.
>>9598837>It doesn't need to be blendedThen I don't give a shit
>>9598219Old developers were wizards.
>>9598219OP here, I used to sold that shit bruh, there are emulators that include this as an extra, mainly arch related emulators.But yeah, I think this taste goes person to person I was actually asking as I'm developing games, to see if adding a CRT filter/s as an option is something I should invest to on the long term for those pixel art games I'm making.>>9598506>>9598516Sometimes is not so much blurry, but also some degree of smoothing.>>9598558indeed, more than blur is smoothing in actuality. >>9598823>>9598663these are actually pretty interesting takes
>>9598698funny, you can still make up the gradient divisions and where one color ends and other starts.
Lion King dither is a pretty good oneMe personally, I found that using a smaller screen and being 6 feet away is easier and just as effective as filters.
>>9599670Only a CRT and composite will eliminate banding and awkward colour combinations
Just blur and slap a grid on top lel
>>9598663>PVMjust play on a consumer tv like everyone else
>>9598635>no one should ever be forced into CRT mock-ups as that's not what's being output by the console, always give config options>FUCK YOU AND DIE DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO???
>>9598664That’s a zoomer.
>>9599658You can also see that the color of the skirt is completely different.
>>9598635are you ok, anon?
>>9598219Japanese consumer tv's were in another level with composite signal which all used back then in japan, for the ire of rgb and scatfags, the only ones on par with it were commodore CRT's which also used similar signals, blessed were those using those for amiga.Chimpzillians were kinda blessed because their signal there is a mix of burger, euro and japanese.>>9598663>PVM with RGBOpinion: REJECTED>>9598698Right is perfect, mainly the wheel's metallic shading and tire.>>9599720Left looks like SHIT that comes off your mother's boyfriend ass
>>9601543Oh yeah, of course. You haven't REALLY played a game unless you played it on a special japanese-only tv from a very specific time period with composite signal that was folded over 1000x times.Glad we reached this advanced CRT snobbery finally.
>>9597671I'm 30 but I got way into emulation in the very late 90s, and once you got it on larger screens, the pixels get bigger as the picture is fit to the larger display, and the games started looking 'square' that way. Then you had games like Doom where big and square pixels are inevitable using any display at all due to scaling and the resolution of the assets themselves. I never thought this looked bad, looked almost like mosaic tile art (or like on my Game Boy), and it grew on me with time.I played NES and N64 on a CRT as a young kid, but I didn't have any real appreciation or fondness for the way it looked back then, and then for the rest of my youth I was mostly looking at emulating shit on LCD screens. Took some slight adjustment to LCD screens at first, not because they weren't blurry or fuzzy, but because of the way the contrast changed if you looked at them at real high or low angles, but that wasn't really a big deal.What took me by surprise was that LCD screens didn't have ANY coilwhine at all, something every TV I had ever seen exhibited at all times, and which computer monitors frequently started doing. There were settings to try to stop or reign in that noise on computer monitors, but often it only worked for some time, only to some degree, or sometimes not at all, and it always annoyed me a lot. It's an obnoxious and abrasive noise, which I understand is something you'll stop hearing at a certain age, I haven't seen a running CRT in ages now, so I have no idea if my ears still pick up on it.I get that a lot of 2D graphics are made with certain display effects in mind, but to me, this looks like it varies greatly, what's expected from one kind won't match what's expected from another, and you'll never get "what the devs intended" across all games on even one system with a single setup.I think crisp pixels look nice, and I'm not offended by dithering, I find my mind resolves that automatically. I'm much more concerned with aspect ratio.
Oh yeah, games like Indiana Jones & The Fate Of Atlantis looked way square on larger screens, even CRTs, so that's another example.I thought that game looked gorgeous at the time, didn't change my mind seeing it on LCD screens with crystal clear pixels.>>9597691Yeah, I prefer it. I don't miss CRTs at all, they didn't really look any better to me, and the noise was unbearable.>>9597695That's one of those things frequently ignored, sometimes this stuff is based on a physical illustration, and whatever result you get scaling it down to a small resolution image with 8/16/32/etc colors and displaying it through a CRT isn't accurate to that.Notably that one guy who thought Dracula in Symphony Of The Night was supposed to have big vampire fangs because that's what he thought that looked like on his CRT display (or his filter), while the art the portrait is cropped from features no such thing.
>>9601543Oh no, everyone outside japan didn't play it AS THE DEVELOPERS INTENDED
>>9597691not a zoomer or a faggot, just ignorant and missing out
>>9598708It's an arcade game so you should use RGB.
>>9597691I've never understood it. The whole reason emulators appealed to me in the late 90s aside from sheer access to the games and platforms I didn't own was the fact that I could play on a crystal clear VGA CRT and get away from blurry fucking televisions. I understand the appear of scanlines but this intentional blur shit is infuriating
Raw pixels = stripping the image of an additional layer of virtual detail and effects. The equivalent of playing your retro video games on "low" graphical settings. Either use an appropriate CRT and the appropriate video signal for the game, or use a shader that simulates each. Raw pixels are just an error.
>>9599720left looks terrible compared to right
>>9601974Both look terrible
>>9598219That half-pixel is another one of those things which isn't made up, but it's also not universal. It wasn't always a possibility at times when you can at most use 8 shades for one element, or as little as 4. Tricks exist to get more colors, but are you gonna go through that effort and use that space and CPU time, adding another palette to load into memory and more entities on screen, all for one more shade of a color which already exists on other palettes? Are you gonna do that a lot?You might, but it really depends on what palette ranges you can expect to work with. For stills like that, it's less of an issue, but it's not something you're gonna do much with any kind of action game with a lot of animation. If you're gonna add an additional palette for a character moving around, it's probably going to be to add a color range it doesn't have in its base range.Looking at things like NES action games, where a character or object frequently only has four shades to work with, you weren't doing half nothing.>>9598558>unpleasantly sharp Subjective, I suppose. I do agree though that CRT styled filters on LCD screens usually don't look good.>>9598663I don't fall for the AI upscaling meme, so that's a nonstarter to begin with. I'm also not bothered by sharp pixels or jagged lines. That's just what you get with low resolution graphics.
>>9601969Yeah I use RGB CRT shaders. Dithering also looks quite nice. It doesn't make sense to sacrifice 99% of how game looks with composite so 1% of it look better.People seem to think even arcade dithering meant to be seen with composite when they used RGB.
>>9601954I was around for it and like VHS tapes I don't miss it, CRTs were a display which didn't look appreciably better and I came to quickly embrace LCD displays for a number of advantages.Arguments for CRTs I think are largely situational and subjective, even the intentions by the developers themselves aren't necessarily significant given the variance in screens and display standards which were a reality at the time. If the dev intended for a certain visual with a certain setup, they inherently acknowledge that many, MANY people are going to see it displayed in a way which differs, and that's many years before crystal clear LCD screens. Some didn't think all that much about it either.The exception would be for arcade games, where the cabinets were built to a spec and they could count on the display being the same for every player every time, at least back in the day.Maybe you have a strong nostalgia for it, maybe you really like the way it looks, but I don't, and clear pixels don't look bad to me.
>>9602000>are you gonna go through that effort and use that space and CPU time, adding another palette to load into memory and more entities on screenWhat a stupid post wasted on nice trips. Putting dithered dark blue and light blue between solid dark blue and light blue so it looks like medium blue isn't adding anything but a little extra work, it's literally the same way greyscales are made with only pure black and white.
>>9598631Fuck you I'll shit my diaper if I want to
>>9602542Yeah, for stills, for large images, for the kind of machine where you can have a larger resolution and a wider range of colors with ease. If you're animating a moving character who's maybe 20x40 in size, on a 256x240 display, and the average moving element has three shades total to work with, there's no half-pixeling to do.You can certainly apply dithering, but it wouldn't be very helpful for Batman here when he has two shades of blue and pitch black to work with, you're more concerned with his outline. Some dithering is used for the background at times, and for cutscenes, where it's drop dead gorgeous, but these are static and still limited in how many shades they can use.
>>9601863OP hereinteresting take, and you just triggerd a memory in me when old TV/monitors had that fucked up sound you mentioned.I actually used an old monitor up until somewhere in the early 2010s due to economic issues lmao I remember that those things made me water my eyes at times, out of sheer brightness radiation.
>>9601969But there is no blur. Decent 15kHz CRTs are sharp and clear. Unless you're using dogshit composite, but you shouldn't do that either way.
>>9601863What’s funny is I don’t recall notching coil whine not even as a child. I’d just tune it out, or maybe the headphones or speakers would mask it. I googled it and the whine is a sound that comes out of the back of the monitor and gets reflected back, so it might depend heavily on how the space is setup. Maybe I had less sensitivity in that range. I could definitely hear above 15k according to internet hearing tests when younger.
I legitimately cannot tell if I prefer CRT over raw pixels or if I'm just being gaslit into believing I do.
>>9601969My reaction to those emulators on VGA monitors as a teenager was that it didn’t seem right having such blatant pixels. Bilinear filtering felt more natural to me. It was scanlines that mystified me because I couldn’t remember such blatant dark lines growing up. Of course I realized years later what was going on but back then I didn’t understand.It’s funny because there are people in this thread claiming composite CRT tvs were surprisingly clear when they always seemed to have some degree of blur.
>>9603226Heh meanwhile i want to love crt but I live with a pack rat mother so there’s no point in stuffing those big boxes into my space. Also 30hz/60hz flicker my eyes don’t handle it very good. So I had to learn to live with lcd with turned down sharpness or bilinear filtering.>>9603245Didn’t look like when I was little. That ironically is more of an LCD look, real composite has a certain bluriness and blendedness to it.
>>9603226Retard. I'm saying I can't decide if I legitimately like it or if I'm falling for the "THE WAY IT'S MEANT TO BE PLAYED" meme. On the one hand certain games look good but I've spent most of my adult life without a CRT at this point and I've gotten used to the appearance of raw pixels. It would truly be NPC behavior if I wasn't questioning my own tastes and just decided to go along with what everyone else is doing.
>>9603220desu there were many variables for crt displayshttps://youtu.be/kt-4ppVloVA?t=232
>>9603205I'll even take a shader over raw pixels
>>9603417Thanks! This is a great video. Indeed I can see a lot of variation which makes sense considering it’s a relatively imprecise analog technology. Makes me nolstalgic, wish I had room for a proper retro space. But nonetheless I’ve chosen to let crts and original hardware go and just move on with life. Emulators and lcds are much more space efficient.>>9603421Bbbased.
>>9597671I prefer a CRT but the people who borderline fetishize them are annoying.
>>9603398Well I do believe CRT on composite would be more authentic and the pixel art often had that in mind, but theres not one universal CRT experience either. So if you go down that road then there’s suddenly many ways it could of been played. At the end of the day you gotta ask if the way it’s meant to be played excites you enough to make it worth it? Because I’m pretty happy just using a 24” LCD monitor with my sharpness turned down even though I know the real thing is probably way more epic. At the end of the day the way it’s meant to be played doesn’t fit into my life.
>>9603220Modern LCD reproductions and photography of NTSC and composite video output, and most people's most recent memory of it probably being trying to view HD targeted content leads to the expectation it's going to look like absolute smeared poo, when it's really fine for the resolution intended for it.
>>9603585Authentic look doesn't have an answer. I changed CRT TV 3-4 times growing up before LCDs. They all had distinct characteristics.It is also likely devs used different TVs and monitors during development. Sure they might have tested games on another TV as the definitive look, but monitors they worked on most likely had more effect whether they realized it or not. SNES games took 8:7 into consideration for things like title screen, yet main games are creating without taking 8:7 in mind. Think of it like that.I was using CRT Composite filters for a while as I like them for nostalgic purposes, but blur really gets tiring on the eye after a while. Also true for N64, PS2 blur.At this point I'm just using CRT shaders that look like RGB.>>9603763First you started calling each other zoomer and NPC for everything. Now you double down and view everything in world through your idea of being a zoomer and NPC. Apparently "free thinker" shapes his worldview by stupid 4chan memes.
>>9603892Very good points there’s no one universal CRT look, there is many different interpretations of it. A lot of games don’t seem to compensate for the 8:7 thing. I prefer 8:7 stretched to 4:3 because muh authenticity but also because anything narrower than 4:3 feels too narrow!I’d still encourage people to be CRT fags if they have fun with it. I did experiment a bit with a CRT tv a couple years ago over 480i on a wii and PS2 and even a HDMI to composite converter from my PC. There was something significantly different about the way it created an image compared to an LCD.
>>9601971>Raw pixels = stripping the image of an additional layer of virtual detail and effects. Highly conditional and not consistent across setups.
>>9603220>It was scanlines that mystified me because I couldn’t remember such blatant dark lines growing up.Yeah unless you had a Trinitron they weren't very noticeable. Even less noticeable on PAL TVs too.https://youtu.be/WUzN_8mnVGM?t=92
>>9597769They look better in motion, certainly, but even with op its hard to deny how much worse it is raw
N64 aesthetic gets so much disrespect and it's because of its weird fonts and you emulator faggots EAT A DICK
>>9604124On my TV you can basically only tell scanlines exist because they make shadow mask lines that align with them stick out slightly more.
>>9601885>Notably that one guy who thought Dracula in Symphony Of The Night was supposed to have big vampire fangs because that's what he thought that looked like on his CRT display (or his filter), while the art the portrait is cropped from features no such thing.That will never not be funny.