broke: localizer censors gamewoke: localizer introduces problematic content in game
bespoke: localizer refuses to get the ratings logo correct, not just the game's plot
Is it possible to fuck with the difficulty in a saturn action replay to give the jap version the mechanical changes the us version got?
whoke: localizer encourages players to boycott the series, the developer, and buy another console instead
I don't know how they got away with it. They put this shit right in the manual.
whoakuh: localizer introduces pedophilic jokes not even the nip developers thought of introducing in a game starring 12 year old girls
>>9594671The absolute state of that typeset.
>>9594692It was a different time
>>9594692>pedophilicHow is that pedophilic? Are you people so puritanical a kid can't even say the word condom without the writer wanting to fuck kids? Is Beavis and butthead pedophilic because the teenage characters talk about scoring?
>>9594692They literally say in-game they're 14.
>>9594692you'd be surprised at how sexual middle schoolers can be, at least in the inner cityi found a condom in some kid's desk once
There's a reason we called them Wrecking Designs back in the day.
>>9594690This isn't even the only time they did goofy shit like this, I wanna say the Lunar SSSC manual had it going on as well. I didn't really care about their goofy translations and dubs but shit like >>9594945 was genuinely infuriating
The fun doesn't stop there. It's bad enough to have a localization team fuck up the story and just start making things up and throwing in pop-cultural references, but to actually change the gameplay? That's completely outside of their job description. It's clear that Working Designs all really wanted to make a game of their own, but they didn't have the talent or skills, so they just made dumbass difficulty ROM hacks of other companies' games and released them officially.The fucking hubris, the ego on these mother fuckers.
Everything Wrecking Designs did was to combat people beating the game on a rental. And to save money since they could just re-write the script Samurai Pizza Cats style instead of paying their translator more (which are usually paid by the amount they translate).
>>9594945No. No we didn't. Nobody called them anything till long after they went of business and Johnny Come Lately fags like you come in pretending to be older than you are and acting as if you understood what the industry was remotely like back in the day.
>>9594945If they wanted to make the puzzle harder they could have given an abstract hint that translated to the solution. Erasing the thing entirely is just mean.
>>9594981I absolutely remember everyone hating them back in the day. And for good reason.
>>9594971To be fair to Working Designs, this behavior was routine back then. Games were constantly made arbitrarily harder when localized, sometimes causing weird imbalances. Grant was meant to be awesome in Castlevania III because you had to take a detour to get him. But they made him garbage in the US version making it pointless to go out of your way to get him.
>>9594881Yeah man Umi is just like Tyrone.
>>9595000For JRPGs it was the opposite because they figured Americans hadn't played 4 Dragon Quest games and Final Fantasy II already.
>>9594690Lol, I find it amusing when they pull shit like that.
>>9594671What game is that?
>>9594985not mean, greedy. they wanted you to get a guide
>>9595000>>9595031Working Designs didn't really make things harder, they just made them grindier and more spongey. Silhouette Mirage is not a harder game because I have to mug every enemy I see for currency to pay for ammo that didn't exist in the original version of the game.
>>9595396They seemed to at least THINK they were making them harder. It's total conjecture but I bet Vic Ireland played a lot of Sierra games and dungeon crawlers on PC back in the day which is where he got his perception of what "difficulty" looks like.There's an interview floating around somewhere where he talks about Exile 2 and how they nearly made the game unwinnable by accident. They didn't have programming staff at the time and the Japanese studio agreed to make any changes they wanted but only gave them three rounds of edits. On the last round they fucked up the numbers so bad that the game became almost impossibly hard and the Japanese studio wouldn't make a fourth change. Of course this begs the question why you'd fiddle with the mechanics of a game when you know you're bothering someone overseas and can't do it in-house. You'd think under those conditions the goal would be to just get the game out without any needless headaches and complications.
>>9595746It's almost like they were up their own ass or something.
>>9595913They had the same vibe that early translation groups like Dejap and Aeon Genesis had. They just happened to be there way earlier and do it as an official business. Obviously Working Designs wouldn't have a place in the current world of localization but I'd argue they were still better than their contemporaries. This is what DBZ fansubs were like back then.
>>9595951That pic is closer to what he's actually saying in that scene than a lot of Working Design's localization choices.
>>9594680That'd probably be a ridiculous amount of code, so no
>>9594945I don't remember how I solved this when I played it
>>9595000They were a product of their timeBut I heard they're still around and still want to do this shit to games?...
>>9594692I think a lot of early anime culture in America didn't think of these characters as literal teen girls under 16. Even if we saw them as school girls, they still looked more detailed and sexy than adult women in most american cartoons. They looked closer to what we'd consider an adult woman than a 14 year old.
>>9595025>only the black kids were fucking!lmaoing at ur life.
>>9596438It blew my mind when I rewatched Sailor Moon and they're 14 in Middle School in the first season. Nobody draws them that way
>>9596449>they're 14 in Middle School in the first season. Nobody draws them that wayThey're not drawn like normal middle schoolers but it's obvious they're not adults either lol
>>9596431Not really, no. Vic Ireland started a company called Gaijinworks and they localized a few games on the PSP and PS4 but there hasn't been any activity in a long time. The last news that came out was when Sega approached him to get the Lunars put on the Genesis Mini 2 and he declined.
>>9596438>>9596449>>9596517This is true for all cartoon characters. Unless they're meant to be children children like Rugrats, they always talk and behave way older than they're stated age because it's hard to make stories around actual little kids. Bart and Lisa Simpson behaved 10 and 8 years old for about a year before they started aging up in personality. Ditto for South Park.
>>9596542He didn't decline, he just asked way more money for his translation than Sega was willing to pay.
Clinton and Austin Powers jokes shoehorned into a fantasy RPG. So woke. So woke. Gag me with a fucking spoon.
Working DkinoI love their translations. I hate weebs and number crunchers. Knowing it pisses them off makes me especially love them.>anime website!Fuck off, this is a video game board, not /a/, I came here during the habbo hotel raids, it was cartoon black men that lured me, not anime girls.>but they're a weeb company tooI don't know what tv shows their games are based off I just like their games
>>9596559Absolute scumbag. The Genesis Mini 2 really needed these
>>9596582>i'm new and proud of it actuallykeep on lurkin
>>9594971God, what a bunch of morons.
>>9596582do you want somebody in this thread to make the thread better for you by adding a bunch of OJ Simpson and Geraldo Rivera jokes to it
I enjoy their translation. It's good, light-hearted fun.Not too fan of the gameplay changes.
This was the OG translation outrage. Literally nobody complained about WD back then.
>>9596963Other than changing difficulty shit for no reason I genuinely like WD translations. They're fun. Pandering to fucking stick-in-the-mud weebs fucked up future editions of Chrono Trigger, too.
>>9594997Not him, but I'm also calling your bullshit out. Nobody gave a shit.
>>9595000Bayou Billy instantly came to mind.
>>9594692>enough condoms to last for 50 yearsFor me, that would be one condom.
>>9596963I thought it was hilarious. Of course I was none the wiser.
>>9595000Even in the Japanese version Syfa is far better than Grant.
Working Designs at least brought games over that at the time would never have gotten localized. Remember that Sega was considering changing Popful Mail to "Sister Sonic." And even mainstream games like Castlevania Bloodlines would have the art changed to be less anime looking. WD was the first publisher to openly tolerate anime in the product.
>>9597353What they did was beyond tolerate, they openly embraced it. Their localization choices were kinda shit but not entirely out of line with other contemporary attempts, it's the balance changes that deserve the most scorn
>>9597473>Their localization choices were kinda shitThey didn't seem to always have the best options, yeah. They picked up what they could in between the diamonds in the rough. I remember Vic Ireland saying that he knew Albert Odyssey wasn't that good of a game but he was glad to have done it for the sake of building a relationship with Sunsoft. You knew the writing was on the wall though when Sony localized Grandia. That was a slam dunk pick for WD but once their business model proved those type of games had legs in the west, big publishers just started doing it in-house, rendering WD obsolete. Publishers like NIS are the spiritual offspring of Working Designs.
>>9594951>goofyIt was to sell strategy guides. Lunar 2 had some stuff rearranged and Alundra had dungeon hints needed to progress in the game omitted on purpose.The difficulty changes and hostile anti-player stuff was to make sure an already +15 hour long role playing game is even longer.>>9596438Then you get Vic Ireland accusing Game Arts of being pedos when excusing why he couldn't bring over Lunar Magical School over (it was because he burned bridges with Sega by that point, but instead of normally saying that he resorts to this, despite bringing over games with similar content with the appropriate amount of censorship applied) when doing this shit the same year. Then years later with his comments about the Idolmasters series to make himself seem "needed" to "save" those damned nips from themselves and "fix" the game.>>9596559>>9596559>>9596729Specifically, more money than what the actual Japanese companies asked for when licensing their own games, entire game and regional variations included.That's what Game Arts gets for using his script again.Story goes even further beyond, when Xseed did the PSP translation without using his work but using some of the same voice actors. Normally a sane choice, considering the side dialogue isn't even a translation, and was changed in the later ports, and Xseed had more standards than Working Designs copy-pasting the entire Lunar 2 script from SCD to PSX without checking for any changes or updates or new content. So he was enraged, did a lot of weird fan campaigns to get the localization cancelled. And then again, for the iPhone version of Lunar 1 (yet another remake).He did this gesture where he gave away the script rights "for free back to Game Arts" so that they could use his translation in the iPhone version. Coupled with "fan pressure" Game Arts actually replaced the good translation with Vic Ireland's old Sega CD script. But he didn't give them the audio rights, and enforced it here for the Sega Mini.
>>9597478>You knew the writing was on the wall though when Sony localized Grandia. That was a slam dunk pick for WDWD never had a chance with Grandia, at first Sega of America was handling it (after Gungriffon by Game Arts) then as they were clearly stalling Game Arts moved on to Sony's offer. Vic Ireland's antics with Bernie Stolar prevented a timely release of Lunar for the Saturn, and then he rejected Lunar Magical School (which they were DESPERATE to find a publisher for, and for cash in general, even in Japan).So you could say it was a combination of biting more than they could chew, and being assholes to the company before.
>>9597484>Then you get Vic Ireland accusing Game Arts of being pedos when excusing why he couldn't bring over Lunar Magical School over (it was because he burned bridges with Sega by that point, but instead of normally saying that he resorts to this, despite bringing over games with similar content with the appropriate amount of censorship applied) when doing this shit the same year. Then years later with his comments about the Idolmasters series to make himself seem "needed" to "save" those damned nips from themselves and "fix" the game.Victor Ireland's retarded autism is ridiculous enough to deserve its own thread, say what you want about the company but they were people with jobs and lives and he torched it all over his bullshit over Goemon and refusing to support the GBA/DS just because he didn't fucking like them
>>9597484This is just from an outsider's perspective but the sense I got was that Vic Ireland is a passionate guy who will fight tooth and nail over things that companies like Sega and Sony think is dumb but instead of giving in, Ireland just doubled down. And WD just wasn't a big enough publisher to play that game. Capcom could throw its weight around and bully Sony into greenlighting Mega Man 8 but if Vic Ireland made too much of a pest of himself they'd just cut him loose. He didn't seem willing to pick his battles.
>>9597529There's passionate and then there's stupid. Ireland is fucking stupid.
>>9597494Well that's what I mean. The available games started drying up. Thoughout most of the 90s there was always a random RPG that wasn't going to get localized and WD could snatch it up. And a decent number of them were really good. But after a while all the good games started getting picked up by much bigger companies. WD wasn't going to outbid Sony. Atlus started to really take off, too, and they were much more prolific. What market was WD going to fill come 2004-2005? If you look at Gaijinworks output, it's all mid-tier games that aren't especially interesting. Class of Heroes is no Lunar.
>>9597494I really wish we got Bernie Stolar's side of the story. If you take Vic Ireland's word, the man was the devil incarnate. But I'm sure there's some nuance there.
>>9597539It's tough, right? Because I benefited from that "stupidity." Arc The Lad Collection was an obviously absurd thing to publish. Nobody with any business acumen would put together an $80 compilation of an entire RPG franchise that spanned the PS1's entire lifespan but Americans had never heard of and release it all at once after the PS2 had already come out. And then pack it full of tchotchkes celebrating a series that, again, nobody had ever heard of. Definitely a "stupid" thing to do. But I'm also glad someone was that "stupid." It's now as an adult that I can look at the situation objectively and realize that the Sony executive on the other side was probably taking a shot of whiskey every time Vic Ireland's phone number showed up on the caller ID. But as a teenager with a PS1 and a love for quirky RPGs was I supposed to care about that?
>>9597579No, that's not what is stupid about him. WD's penchant for "deluxe" releases back when it was almost unheard of in the west was genuinely cool. It was chasing dead-end long shots and letting his personal biases ruin his company's ability to stay functional that was stupid
>>9597591He complained like crazy over Growlanser Generations. That was ironically NOT supposed to be a deluxe set. He was going to release II and III as separate games but Sony forced him to package them together. I guess that's what you mean by chasing dead end long shots. The games came out but it's obvious it was an antagonistic situation from the start and he probably should have backed off. Either that, or not have chosen to die on so many pointless hills that the executives just got sick of him. That's the cost of making yourself a pain in the ass. You may get what you want that time but you drain the tank of goodwill going forward. Didn't WD fully finish Goemon on PS2 but then couldn't release it, fully knowing that such a scenario was a likely possibility?
>>9597560Bernie Stolar IS devil incarnate. The same story ("Bernie went to me as early as Christmas 1996 and told me: nice finished game you spent so much money developing and translating. Cancel it, we're phasing out the Saturn in North America. Stay tuned for the Saturn 2!") was cited multiple times by other publishers: Capcom, Konami, Atlus, and others. In that respect, Vic Ireland's narrative is plausible and explains the most why so many finished games got cancelled in NA the way they did.We have other frames of references to judge Bernie Stolar's legacy, like the unpaid scammed Atari Lynx developers who ended up cancelling a game over this BEFORE the system's launch, or the WonderSwan that was never released but its software was, or the early days of the PlayStation which had a policy so untenable that Capcom threatened to go Saturn-exclusive with Mega Man and Resident Evil.However, you've got to remember Vic Ireland was entrusted by Sega to localize Shining Wisdom and he deleted all references to the Shining series in the game's plot and mentioned a Sony-published Camelot game instead. Then in the manual of Rayearth he complains about Sega rejecting a nicer logo, and brags about messing up a marketing deal concoted by Sega USA to coincide the game's release with an English dub for the anime.That's, unequivocally, sabotage.Leaving Sega aside, there was that infamous sexual "joke" in Alundra that wasn't in the original.Alundra was a Sony IP. SCEI is mostly hands off with third party localizations.They got a guy from the official PS1 magazine, almost certainly with ties to SCEA, to co-edit the script with memes/edge. That included said joke, which was featured in the game coverage.SCEA and the ERSB noticed.According to Vic Ireland, rather than the other religious/controversial content he cuts regularly from the games, THIS was the hill he was willing to die on, HIS joke.Are these antics totally unrelated to his relationship with Sony later?
>>9597620>or the WonderSwan that was never released but its software wasWait, what?
>WokePlease unironically kill yourself, tourist.
>>9597620Ireland was not wrong about the Rayearth thing. Sega not only lost the source code, forcing WD to rebuild half the game and causing a two year delay, but also failed to produce the anime in question. So Ireland wasn't sabotaging but calling out Sega's buffoonery. He was relatively tactful about it in the manual but, yes, it wasn't exactly the definition of professionalism to be like "Sega did this to us."
>>9597614The lady he's complaining about is legit, it happened, she sabotaged other localizations like Chulip (delayed from 2003 all the way to 2007 with significantly less features than advertised, as if it's an unfinished demo they were just dying to release) by Natsume, and visual novels that were automatically rejected for not being "real games" like Sakura Taisen (as attempted by Sega/NISA) and Kamaitachi no Youru (as attempted by Agtec, only known about thanks to a special thanks credit in the iPhone version)The thing is, this was avoidable if only he published them in Europe. That would have solved the problem instantly. That's exactly how 505 Games operated. He could have localized the PC ports as well (or funded cheap ones).Know what else was avoidable? The Lunar PSP situation. Gaijinworks didn't get the PSP version specifically BECAUSE Vic Ireland rejected the GBA version of Lunar and actively shat on it and on Ubisoft for picking it up online. Many of the GBA version's flaws (the over-compressed audio and missing wallpaper screens) would have been solved with a slightly bigger cart, something Working Designs' supposed knack for "improving localizations" would do, but they're almost always for cutting down costs. Then he was surprised he wasn't called again.Supposedly he hates dealing with cart costs but that situation caused his PS2 downfall.>>9597626Mattel brought the exclusive worldwide rights for the WonderSwan Color from Bandai in 1999, and Bernie Stolar was put in charge after he was let go from Sega (due in no small part for selling the DreamCast at an even more catastrophic loss than it already was behind Japan's back so the moderate success couldn't even save it)Bandai retained the rights for South East Asia.Once reality set it, Bandai tried desperately to release their English versions in South Korea, but it was hopeless. Squaresoft released their own for the GBA years later and they still have WonderSwan strings in the ROM files.
>>9597646>Gaijinworks didn't get the PSP version specifically BECAUSE Vic Ireland rejected the GBA version of Lunar and actively shat on it and on Ubisoft for picking it up online.This can't be repeated enough. WD's message boards were infamous for him doing this kinda shit back in the day
>>9597620>According to Vic Ireland, rather than the other religious/controversial content he cuts regularly from the games, THIS was the hill he was willing to die on, HIS joke.>Are these antics totally unrelated to his relationship with Sony later?No, it's probably very related. I'm not defending Vic Ireland's individual decisions. But I do think it's important to put it in context of the day. The ESRB wasn't THAT old when Alundra came out and print magazines at the time were just as juvenile. You'd crack open an EGM and see fanart submissions of a Nazi Sonic murdering Mario and fart humor throughout the actual reviews. Singling out Vic Ireland as the sole retard who just plain didn't know what he was doing is disingenuous. For better or worse, he was very much a man of his time. Final Fantasy VII, the biggest game of it's day, has straight up nonsensical lines peppered throughout the translation because it's editor was asleep at the switch. But Vic Ireland was the retard of the generation because he gave an NPC a Bill Clinton joke? You have to admit this isn't really fair.The way I see it, Working Designs is the ZSNES of JRPGs. We've moved long past it but it was important to it's relevant time frame.
>>9597635The delay was caused in part by a hard drive crash on WD's end. I can't imagine his public feud with Bernie Stolar helped at all his communication with Sega of America, nor did the delay of the game beyond any commercial viability on the Sega Saturn keep Sega interested in funding the dub or keeping in touch with the local TV networks.>>9597656>WD's message boardsThe less said about these the better really. Vic Ireland was going personally on discussion boards to flame critics of his handling of Silhouette Mirage. (circa 1998) Some reviewers in game magazines went as far as suggest you just import the untranslated Saturn version as the "English text" benefits doesn't outweigh the many obvious downsides. That was when he started to reign it down though.For Lunar 2 PS1 too, he was throwing an ex-employee under the bus and blaming him for the state of the localization (supposedly was let go while it was worked on) and even some of the worse localizations choices in other games (but unspecific), and it seemed weirdly vindictive. Never taking responsibility. But then it explained so much about how the Exile 2 situation is the Japanese's fault, how the voice actress helping Xseed are at fault, etc.
>>9594692The Rayearth Saturn game was wild
>>9595000I still say modern gamers are absolutely spoiled. Niche genre games especially. Back then we didn't even get most Dragon Quest games. JRPGs were a niche among niches.
>>9597682>Back then we didn't even get most Dragon Quest games.That part didn't really change lol
>>9597679>The delay was caused in part by a hard drive crash on WD's end.I don't think so. The story goes that Sega lost the data and it's suspected that House of the Dead and Panzer Dragoon Saga were victims of the same crash, evidenced by neither game ever getting a rerelease. WD wouldn't have had a drive with the latter two games on it.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/anncast/2012-04-13Here's the interview with Vic Ireland where he goes into the Exile 2 story as well as a lot of other stuff. It's about two hours long but worth a listen if you have the time.
>>9597682>Back then we didn't even get most Dragon Quest games.We actually did get most of them. Enix just abandoned the North American market during the SNES which was the absolute worst possible time. Despite prevailing wisdom, RPGs were not that niche. Chrono Trigger sold something like 300,000 copies in the west. That might not sound like a lot but for the SNES it was pretty decent. Super Metroid and Mega Man X were maybe 400,000 each.
>>9597668Other publishers did minor fuckups from time to time, however the likes of Jeremy Blaustein, Agnes Kaku and Vic Ireland are remembered in similar discussions as these because they made one fuck-up too many and burned up all possible bridges and goodwill they had with prospective business partners.Vic Ireland in particular keeps DOUBLING DOWN on his fuckups, see the Sega Mini 2 situation for a very, very recent example.Hudson Soft was sucking off to him very hard when they were pitching their TurboGrafx16-CD stuff to him, yet he barely did anything for them and their only SNES collaboration ended because he didn't want to deal with Nintendo's cart order system. No more Hudson Soft partnerships for a while! At least until 2007, where he didn't have the funding for the translation of Tengai Makyou Ziria X360 and ditched it when he heard about a Microsoft policy regarding minimum orders (that they quickly dropped). So, no more serious Hudson Soft partnerships.No more serious Game Arts partnerships.No more serious Sega partnerships.No more serious Sony partnerships.List keeps getting smaller and smaller... Then what? What's all the diva act for? Konami, Ubisoft and Atlus could localize games as well for third parties. Agtec and Xseed wouldn't as aggressively claim ownership for your game's script and try to trademark the game's name under their name. Then NISA could localize AND port games. Why is Working Designs needed, again? Why work with someone who will either produce an abridged dub of your game, or shit on it so that no one else can sell it? Why maintain a long term business relationship with someone who's clearly not interested?
>>9597707>Enix just abandoned the North American market during the SNES which was the absolute worst possible time.They went bankrupt, and DQ6 was ready for release. They just wasted too much time on DQ5 (ugly+too hard to bugfix) and irrelevant shit side franchises from other companies rather than prioritizing their flagship games. Nintendo's fuckery didn't help. A pity only Terranigma was rescued from their WIP projects.
>>9597732What did Blaustein do?
>>9597679>The less said about these the better really.Let us hear them, I'm all for redpilling on what a twat Ireland is.
>>9597784Mostly just being high off his own bullshit, like he thinks SOTN's dub ruined his script instead of being exactly what made it memorable
>>9597793Not really that much to add to what's already been said. Think of the most ridiculous shit Hideki Kamiya's done on Twitter but just apply it to his own company's "fans" on some tiny late 90s message board. Like even mentioning certain bugs/items/things in Eternal Blue caused an insta-ban
>>9597784Whines about Kojima blacklisting him for changing too much dialogue (then kisses his ass when he needs the recognition), complains about his ex coworkers like Scott Dolph, was a pain the ass to Silent Hill 2 VAs (Guy Cihi has said as much). Kaku doesn't need an explanation, she's just bad at her job and too up her ass to admit it.
>>9597707>Despite prevailing wisdom, RPGs were not that niche. They were>Chrono Trigger sold something like 300,000 copies in the westLess than 300k, and that's after who knows how many years on shelves. That's niche.
>>9597702>ANN>zac bertchyYeesh, hope you like listening to a smug dead alcoholic.
>>9597827Stop being a pedantic faggot. 300,000 is adequate. RPGs were coming out all the time and doing decently.
>>9597094>one simple trick
>>9594685You can play the euro version of this at 60hz and get a literal translation
>>9597484Jesus, what an idiot with an ego. I'm glad he's gone>>9597508What happened with Goemon?> and refusing to support the GBA/DS just because he didn't fucking like themWhich sucks because even if he's an idiot, we deeply needed a company like this to localize stuff early DS. Like Goemon>>9597646> and visual novels that were automatically rejected for not being "real games" like Sakura Taisen (as attempted by Sega/NISA) and Kamaitachi no Youru (as attempted by Agtec, only known about thanks to a special thanks credit in the iPhone version)Ah cool, so I was wondering who the fuck was to blame for VNs not really being a thing in that era and for Sega to miss an opportunity to release Sakura Taisen. Looks like it's all thanks to Sony
>>9597484WD fans (or Vic and his sock puppets, on knows) still do shit like that whenever anyone so much as mentions the idea of doing a fan retranslation of one of the games they localized.
>>9594692I'm surprised people post this one all the time and not the kid they added that took a shit in his pants
>>9598043No faggot, taking however many years to less than 300,000 copies isn't a hit. Again, how many years did it take for CT to even reach that 289,000 number? It sure as shit didn't sell that many thr first month of release.>RPGs were coming out all the timeYes, as evidenced by the numerous ones that didn't get translated, because publishers knew they wouldn't see a return on investment after translating it after however many months.Bullshit yourself with historical revisionism all you want, JRPGs didn't become big overseas until FFVII. "Not niche" in the 16 bit era is something like Street Fighter II on SNES, or Sonic on Genesis.
>>9598714>Again, how many years did it take for CT to even reach that 289,000 number? It sure as shit didn't sell that many thr first month of release.The game went up in price fairly quick, back in the day when Funcoland was selling used NES games for literal change, a used Chrono Trigger was $80. It absolutely sold through its print run and it didn't take long. FF3 sold even better. I also never said it was a hit, just that it sold too well to be called niche. RPGs were typically middle of the road performers. It also wasn't just SNES. Shining Force was a success for Sega.
>>9598714SFII was an obscene outlier. It broke records. It was the best selling non-pack in title for a long ass time. If thats your standard for "not niche" then 90% of video games were niche.
>>9598714>Yes, as evidenced by the numerous ones that didn't get translated, because publishers knew they wouldn't see a return on investment after translating it after however many months.This is a misconception. RPGs were being skipped not because they were afraid of RPGs wouldnt sell but because of logistics. It took a long time to localize them and graphics kept advancing so fast a game that was of the standards one day, suddenly looked outclassed six months later. That's what happened to FFV. They were all ready to release it but by the time it was ready games like Donkey Kong Country were out and so it was suddenly a hostile environment to a game that looked that primitive. This happened multiple times. Teams were small and Square had to decide which of its games were going to occupy Ted Woolsey.
You wouldn't know about these games if not for working designs. They weren't the best, but at least they decided to release games that likely wouldn't have seen a release here.
>20 years later, some people are still madImpressive.
>>9597478Albert Odyssey is a shockingly mediocre game for what it looks like it should be. Say what you will about Vic Ireland, the man had a talent for making average games look like the most amazing thing ever.
>>9598714You only had to sell 150k copies to become a Greatest Hit when PS1 first came out. 300k was literally a hit for its time.
This gives some insight into what RPG sales were like, or at least Final Fantasy sales. I'm surprised that FF1 did better overseas than in Japan but I guess that shouldn't be a surprise since that game got a pretty serious push by Nintendo, similar to the first Dragon Warrior. 9.25 million vs. 2.2 million in total franchise sales up to that point. So a clear advantage in Japan but also pretty decent in America, especially considering half the games didn't come out. FFVII was an unprecedented success but before then RPGs were doing okay. It's not like they were in the trash heap.
>>9598928I don't know shit about making games but it seems impressive if they were able to make FF6 in a year and a half
>>9598937I'm guessing they saved a lot of time by recycling the ground level game engine stuff that you need just to get the software up and running. The benefit of it being the third game in on a console. They probably didn't have to reinvent the wheel for a lot of things.
>>9598937The volume of Square's output in the 90s was insane.
>>9598956RPGs were a great genre back then for developers because they didn't have the technical demands that other genres had but still held their own through other means. Super Mario Bros. 3 is way more technically advanced than Famicom Final Fantasy III. Squaresoft at the time never could have made something like Mario 3. Final Fantasy IV is no way as "big" as Street Fighter II. But their RPGs kept pace with the competition because the breadth of the worlds covered for the sacrifices made elsewhere. It's why Lunar exists in the first place. Studio Alex struck out on it's own and settled on an RPG as it's first game. They probably wouldn't have been able to make a fighting game or platformer with the level of competence expected of those genres.
>>9594692and that's saying a lot coming from these pedophile fujos at Clamp
>>9594671Most localization hires are failed writers who openly hate the original authors and actively attempt to subvert their works.
>>9598750>You wouldn't know about these games if not for working designs.I still didn't know about 90% of the games they localized.
>>9599591If you look at the entire Working Designs catalog they didn't publish all that many games. A few are ones that probably would have been picked up by somebody, like Raystorm. Sega probably would have localized it's own stuff like Thunderforce and Sega Ages. But games like Vay and Vasteel? Nobody would have touched 'em other than WD.
>>9597646>Supposedly he hates dealing with cart costs but that situation caused his PS2 downfall.This was a giant fucking mistake. He was right that it was more expensive but there's no way putting out games on the SNES and Genesis would have been a net loss. Even the N64 would have been a good bet. Wonder Project J2 and Sin and Punishment would have been good picks. By not touching those systems they left themselves on the sidelines for most of the time they were doing business. Magic Knight Rayearth couldn't have sold more than 10,000 copies. What would a random N64 or SNES game sold? Probably 5 times that at minimum.
>>9599591>>9599991I was referring to stuff like Vay.
>>9600010He worked on a couple of them technically:>Phantasy Star IV>GenesisFormally deconfirmed by Sega of America for a while, he pitched it to Japan and got started, Sega of America was interested again and their version released, not WD's. This is keeping in mind Sega had no problem letting him have Sega CD games (Popful Mail) or Saturn games (much, much more).>Unnamed Hudson Soft JRPG in 1994 (Elfaria?)>SNESThis one was finished on their end, but WD would provide only the text data while Hudson would do the actual implementation and submission. It's likely Hudson never actually implemented it in a working build, seeing WD have no access to any playable prototype.The problem with Nintendo was that they were assholes who deserved to go bankrupt for the shit they pulled in the SNES gen, that sunk so many smaller publishers and killed their own SNES third party support.If you wanted to publish for Nintendo with a complete build, you'd have to mail them the boards (later relaxed to sending the ROM files online) and then hear back from them a month or two later, then you have to place an order. That order will be x2 what you actually need (and they'd buy back from you later unsold stock... maybe). If Nintendo disagrees with the ROM size and minimal sale target you have planned, they will reduce them (and tell you to redevelop the game, that's exactly how they lost Namco and Squaresoft) so in the end the expenses might kill your company before even releasing the game. That got relaxed at the end of the SNES gen (even cutting a sweet deal for Capcom who was furious with the SF Zero bomb to recoup loss)But that stopped with the SNES.He had GC/XB/GBA/DS/PC to fall back on and actively rejected them.>>9598529>who the fuck was to blame for VNs not really being a thing in that eraThousand Arms made it, but it was a traditional JRPG with the (translated) dating sim segments presented as side content. So it wasn't always a cost-cutting measure.
>>9599991>Nobody would have touched 'em other than WD.Renovation, Enix USA, or Atlus, had they been more logical about their choices.Even WD picked really poor picks from the PCE-CD library when Hudson/NEC were begging them to handle Far East of Eden II to the point of hinting at it in game interviews.>>9599428Just the infamous ones.Working Designs frequently added their name with equal billing to the original author.
>>9594671It's a typo, it's meant to say "How sexy!"Not every slip of the finger is an affront to your fatbody and chronic masturbation problem, lardass.
>Working DesignsI'll never forgive them.
>>9598282I remember this, honestly I found that moment pretty funny. I recall many found that moment hilarious back then. I remember the translation company used to talk with their customers (I forgot where, GameFaqs maybe? Or some other forum) and them confirming that they had not tried to censor anything or significantly change/tone down the dialog in any way.It did piss me off though when they admitted they were going to censor the ever living fuck out of La Pucelle, but they did say they were going to do it before the game released and didn't try to hide it (they did try to down-play it though. I recall one of the descriptions was "made things that look like crosses look a little less like crosses"... which was code for removing every single cross in the game (though I spotted two they missed). This is a game where you play as basically a battle-nun exorcising demons and ghosts mind you, it would be like changing the vampires and skeletons in Castlevania to look like humans.Another one that was poorly done in that same game is one of the characters would smoke, they edited out the cigarette from his sprite. Problem is his victory animation showed him tossing it and pulling out another, so now his victory animation made no sense. This same character has a cross-shaped gun, which was also edited.That game was re-released uncencored on PSP though and now has been released again on modern platforms still uncencored.
>>9600896Its not that he was wrong to be annoyed by that, but its obvious that it would still have been worth it. Even if he wanted to avoid Nintendo, the Genesis was always an option. Frankly I think the minimum print runs cartridges required put him off. Not because they couldn't sell that many but because Victor seems to have liked when his games were rare. He kept playing up that he wanted his stuff to have limited edition appeal which is hard to do with carts. Even now I bet he likes watching his games go for $1000 on Ebay, which may have contributed to his Genesis Mini refusal.It's just crazy to think WD went from exclusively Turbo CD, to exclusively Sega CD, to exclusively Saturn. You want to work on those systems, fine. But to put all your eggs in those baskets? How do you not work on SNES because its "too risky" but then stick to the Saturn like glue until it took its last breath? The only reason they did PS1 Lunar instead of Saturn was because they had no choice by then. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the fucking PlayStation. And like magic that's when they saw their best sales, when they were finally forced to put games out on a system people actually owned.
>>9597784Star Ocean's awful translation for one
>>9601487>Frankly I think the minimum print runs cartridges required put him off. Not because they couldn't sell that many but because Victor seems to have liked when his games were rare.Ah, I wasn't clear enough. It was Microsoft who were insisting on minimum orders that were too high (500k like). Developers beefs with Nintendo was that they required them to order more than what they needed and later ask for reimbursement, PLUS Nintendo goes and says "nah your game sucks, just take 10k copies for the entire run" while playing favorites with bigger publishers (infogrammes and enix get million copies of orders with no issue) but that means publishers often find that there's no way they can recoup localization/marketing/distribution expenses because the sales potential is TOO LOW, so you get cases like Metal Slader Glory which cost a lot but only sold an initial print run of 10k and that was really it, despite massive public demand.That aside, Nintendo even at their worst were very flexible with approving limited edition games (Recca, Tengai Makyou Zero Shounen Jump version, among others) so it wouldn't be a problem for WD if they wanted LEs. And the point is moot, Nintendo stopped most of this bullshit after 96 and even went back for the Snes to make up for past blunders and courted devs with the Nintendo Power service in Japan that eliminates physical altogether.So the situation isn't present for the N64 and beyond. Not that subject but Nintendo of America passed over a lot of games to Atlus and would have collaborated with WD if not for their general unprofessionalism.
>>9594671Why are translators ALWAYS power tripping?
>>9597529>Capcom could throw its weight around and bully Sony into greenlighting Mega Man 8Capcom did not bully SonyAt that point most of Capcom's library was consistently rejected: console ports of the lucrative Street Fighter franchise and many of their other Arcade games (like a port of Dungeons and Dragons meant for the NA market they couldn't just release in Europe) and then all Mega Man releases (X3, X4 and 8).Resident Evil, technically, is a 2D game with backgrounds like those in point and click games from the era. It's just the protagonist and zombies who are 3D, and the early games are very inspired by Sweet Home. SCEA was rejecting similar games. No matter how lush the prerendered CGI on those 2D backgrounds looks. Some control freak at SCEA completely disconnected from reality was freely cancelling games that make the best out of that hardware (a completely 3d game like OoT on the PS1 would be either a z-fighting polygon massacre, or too rudimentary, also plausible reasons to reject and cancel a game)So after 6 or 7 failed submissions they'd try and publish in Europe and occasionally fail, something had to give.I suspect the intro stage of Mega Man 8 was changed because the game was never meant to be on the PS1 which didn't have enough memory for that.Bernie Stolar went on to decide the fate of another even more 2D centric console and applying these policies even more heavily.
>>9602690>power trippingin a system that gives you power through money, you should not wonder when psychos get to higher postions. Power tripping niggers are everywhere. I give it ten more years and shit hit the fan so hard that even the most normal faggot goes full retarded.This society was build to eat itself, we are ruled by cannibals.
>>9602690They're generally failed writers that see translation jobs as opportunities to trick people into reading their stuff.
>>9602630No I mean that a minimum order would necessarily need to be higher for a cartridge game to be financially sensible compared to a CD. You could conceivably make a comfortable profit on a print run of 10,000 copies on the Saturn. No way could you do that on SNES or Genesis. The costs per unit are too high for that so you need volume to compensate. But it's obvious that Working Designs didn't NEED to keep print runs that low. They only did it because they were making games on the most niche consoles they could find. Probably the only reason they didn't support the 3DO is because it was mostly devoid of JRPGs. Obviously if they localized games on the SNES/Genesis/N64 they could have sold way more copies but Victor Ireland clearly didn't want his games being big sellers. He seemed to revel in rarity. He said so right in the manuals. One of his missions was to never see a game of his with a discount sticker or in a bargain bin.
>>9602708This doesn't apply to Victor Ireland. He wasn't power tripping. Working Designs wasn't even his company as far as I know. It was a small software firm he worked at and convinced the bosses to let him branch out and try localizing video games because he was a weeb gamer at heart. He then started making cold calls and since it was the early 90s when even in Japan most games were made by a bunch of 20-somethings operating out of a garage, it worked and he kind of took over the company.
>>9595031>For JRPGs it was the opposite because they figured Americans hadn't played 4 Dragon Quest gamesThis is weird because, in the first place, the idea behind Dragon Quest was to take a western genre and dumb it down for people who hadn't played 4 Ultima games.
>>9602865Enix was just never invested in North America. It's less that Americans didn't like RPGs and more that the publishers themselves often ignored the region, so you had a chicken and egg problem. Dragon Warrior 1 and Final Fantasy 1 did pretty damn well. FF2 and FF3 never came out and Enix made like 12 copies of Dragon Warrior 2-4.
>Russian translation of The Neverhood>managed to edit video segments that had Engish words scribbled on clay and translate those>kept the plot intact, except for naming the villain Windows and infesting his speech with Microsoft and computer-related references>tried to translate the hall of records, but gave up after three days and just replaced it with loads of jokes, half of them above the game's age rating
>>9602909Come to think of it, it really wasn't until Dragon Warrior VII that they actually tried but that game nobody liked, not even Dragon Quest fans.
>>9602912I remember Delta Force: Land Warrior getting official localization, like, three years after the release of the original game, and it was a gag translation too.
>>9602690Japanese writing is extremely dull and boring, especially in rpgs.Might as well make it fun because the base material is shit.
>>9596779Racist Nordic guy face yes
>>9602953I'm pretty sure it was thoroughly shat on the last time this was brought up here
>>9602964Yeah, the lying faggot "translates" three different words as "snow" and then claims it's a "direct translation" in order to supposedly prove his point that he NEEDS to make shit up.
>>9602952>>9602912How was the translation you got for both Sakura Taisen games like? Hearing this really dampens my optimism about its general quality.
>>9602984We got translation for Sakura Taisen?
>>9602991Working Designs/translations threads are ALWAYS dense with autism, Anon.
>>9602976Exaggerated accounts of clunky Japanese and poorly written Engrish and boring plots that American localizers are saving us from, as told by those same American localizers? Yeah, a tale as old as time.Like Fawful in Superstar Saga or the Starfy localizations heavy on the F-word and other unreliable stories by Treehouse. Little wonder they stopped doing interviews.>>9602990No, I was asking the russian-speaker anons since they got Sakura Taisen 1 and 2 as their PC versions. I don't speak Russian, but if the version they got is a raw deal like those two examples, that would make me feels a little better in a "misery loves company" sense. The general situation of late nineties Russian localizations is fascinating enough even nip devs got notice of it when the Russian unofficial bootleg localization of FF8 beat the actual PAL version to the market, and is kind of the reason why like the mostly DRM-free Steam, Russian locs are never going away really.
>>9602991>>9602993>>9602996Half of those posts are mine.Call the cops. I unironically shit on whiners.
>>9603002>Like Fawful in Superstar Saga or the Starfy localizations heavy on the F-word and other unreliable stories by Treehouse. Little wonder they stopped doing interviews.I remember one NoA translator going on about, I think it was the Mario & Luigi series actually, how they changed a washbasin falling on head joke to a koopa shell and... What? While the washbasin thing itself is indeed a very Japanese thing, the core of the joke is still there: Shit fall on head, that's funnyWhat a pointless change
>>9602990>>9602984>>9603002I wouldn't call Neverhood localization a raw deal, and Delta Force getting a gag translation is not really that bad considering how bland the original game was. That being said, from what I've read right now the Russian translation of Sakura Taisen 1 is apparently a complete dogshit, Sakura Taisen 2 was an improvement over it but they still skimped on editor. Not to mention that it wasn't voiced, and the voice acting is always the best part of Russian localizations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAoSuRYwa20https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJN3V7mBwFQ
>>9603008Their single best blunder was a random DS game from the Touch Generations lineup that had an easily translatable title, that got replaced with something completely different in the NA version.So there's an Iwata Asks interview where Iwata asks the director about the title and the core idea, and the director goes on to explain how that title matters and how crucial it is for his vision.They mistranslated that interview to hide their previous blunder, cut statements from the director interviews, and added statements that defend the American title.Then they skip interviews for random games, not only Japan only games but even those that Nintendo of America wants to bury.>>9603013Appreciate the reply, I figured there was a reason why the fan project no longer used it. The voice acting might be plain old licensing restrictions over voice acting.
>>9603021>The voice acting might be plain old licensing restrictions over voice actingNah, it seems to me that they had extremely tight budget - the first game veers into machine translation after the third chapter and after the outcry on message boards they found some enthusiast to translate the second game, and they couldn't afford an editor for him, or even pay him for subbing the video cutscenes.
>>9603025I guess it explains how the third game was never localized to Russian, despite all first 4 games being available on PC in Japan.
>>9603032Oh, it was localized, it was just never released due to Akella experiencing financial troubles at the time.
>>9602964Yeah, that translation is heavily embellished in order to look as dull and repetitive as possible, so that the translator can falsely claim it's a "direct translation" to defend his other embellishments.Maybe just translate things directly instead?
>>9602953>>9602964>>9602991https://legendsoflocalization.com/is-this-snowy-translation-really-literal/I think "re-write the the text as if it was written in english" is important advice, but I've seen that used justify stupid things, like straight up localization where the speaker is transplanted into a western culture analogue. I think the philisophy should be "re-write the text as if it was written in english by a japanese person". Which is really vague I know, but these two lines are a good example.>This is the world of snow, White Snow Village. Enjoy the beautiful world of silver.>This is the land of snow, Whitesnow Village. Please enjoy our beautiful winter wonderland."winter wonderland" is more like what a member of western culture would say. But I don't learn anything new from it. I know that phrase, I know that culture. It's a land that you wonder about in winter. Wow. Who fucking cares. But a world of silver? I've never thought about a snowy scene like that. It's also perfect english, it's just not a passe description a westerner would use. I want it to be a balance of being alien yet still presented beautifully in english instead of the same tired metaphors and idioms I already know about.
>>9602953>Japanese writing is extremely dull and boringOf all the localizer cope this one still the most hilarious because it assumes the fanfiction they write is better, more witty and more interesting when it never is.
>>9603113To be honest, both second sentences are meaningless to me.
>>9603121It is, I'd rather have silly, light-hearted dialogues in a video game.
>>9603123It's a greeting. It's not supposed to send you through ego death and enlightenment. It's just more interesting if you're playing a japanese game and you learn japanese concepts instead of ones you already know.
>>9603150>Welcome to Beer City. Enjoy the world of hop.It's weird, anon.
>>9603113Mato is being kind of a faggot here really. It's true that this translation is a fairly "direct translation", but it's blatantly untrue that "this is what happens when you do a direct translation" (if it is, then you're a bad translator) and it's painfully obvious this guy is going out of his way to translate as blandly and repetitively as possible in order to make a supposed point that doing direct translations is a bad thing, no matter how much Mato plays dumb and pretends he's not realizing that's what's going on here.The reason this "direct" translation is dull and boring is because it was deliberately written to be dull and boring, not because direct translations are dull and boring or because Japanese writing is inherently dull and boring.
>im a big lunar fani bet you don't even own the alex and ghaleon punching puppets you filthy casuals. look at this shit how can working designs not be the most based publisher?
>>9603156What game was that in? That may be a fair analogy but I have no way of knowing. Silver is obviously a romantic description while hop isn't.Also I'm aware that my standard would surely lead to weirdness. But if I'm playing a japanese game, and I see that localized to "Welcome to Beer City, Home of the Hop!" it would be more conventional and familiar to the west, sounds aesthetic instead of weird, but I've lost cultural understanding of differences. The difference between something being described with world instead of home.
>>9603168Yeah I realize he let the image off the hook. He even tells us that the original text has snow in two languages but none of the translations have snow in two languages to be analogous. I guess that's "localization" though so it wouldn't be direct anymore. But that's never the stuff people complain about when they ask for literal translation.
>>9603170For me, it's Ghaleon.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTTobOm16RoFIGHT ME
>>9603059>Maybe just translate things directly instead?You can't do that because nobody really knows what a "direct" translation looks like. That snow translation is perfectly accurate even though it's boring as shit. It takes an understanding of both the original language AND target language to convey the same idea without just looking up what certain words mean.
>>9603173>Silver is obviously a romantic descriptionIt's not, ginsekai (literally "silver world") is a very common Japanese metaphor for snowscape.
>>9597679>Some reviewers in game magazines went as far as suggest you just import the untranslated Saturn version as the "English text" benefits doesn't outweigh the many obvious downsidesThank god, even back then people called that shit out.When the fuck are we gonna get an Un-Working Designs of SM? Or at least an injection of the ENG text/voices into the Saturn version
>>9603186Well maybe it's not, and maybe obvious is wrong and I'm mislead, but how does being common disqualify it from being romantic? I consider "winter wonderland" to be romantic as well, despite it being extremely common.
>>9603184>That snow translation is perfectly accurate even though it's boring as shit.Yes. When people say they want accurate translations, they mean they want accurate translations, not accurate translations that are deliberately boring as shit.
>>9603113>I think "re-write the the text as if it was written in english" is important advice, but I've seen that used justify stupid things, like straight up localization where the speaker is transplanted into a western culture analogue. I think the philisophy should be "re-write the text as if it was written in english by a japanese person". Which is really vague I know, but these two lines are a good example.Eh, I don't know. That's how you get anime dubs where little girls are always calling older guys "big brother." Yes, that's the literal translation of "onii-chan" or whatever but it doesn't translate the sentiment properly. To a Japanese ear "onii-chan" is just how family members talk to each other in ordinary conversation. English speakers don't call each other "big brother" which ends up making it weird. That's not preserving the same viewing experience that a Japanese person had.
>>9603168>The reason this "direct" translation is dull and boring is because it was deliberately written to be dull and boring, not because direct translations are dull and boring or because Japanese writing is inherently dull and boring.To be fair to Clyde here, this was written during a very specific timeframe where excessively literal translations like that really were a minor fad. This was written in response to a trend in fantranslation communities, both pic related and Sky Render's FFVI retranslation where he insisted on spelling Kekfa as Cefca and keeping Frog in Chrono Trigger as Kaeru. That doesn't really happen as much anymore but there was a weeb uprising for a spell where braindead "translations" like the examples he's giving were being promoted as not just good but ideal.
>>9597646>and visual novels that were automatically rejected for not being "real games" like Sakura Taisen (as attempted by Sega/NISA) and Kamaitachi no Youru (as attempted by Agtec, only known about thanks to a special thanks credit in the iPhone version)Are you fucking serious, holy shit I'm livid considering the amount of shovelware that got kicked out onto Sony's platforms back then
>>9603210>This was written in response to a trend in fantranslation communities, both pic related and Sky Render's FFVI retranslation>article date, 2017>a decade after Death Note and who knows how long after Sky RenderWay to stick it to them, Mato. Sure were timely there.
>>9603197Just so I hear you out better, what's a better term that's not "big brother" that would be ordinary and provide the same experience?Also I don't know if I agree. I don't know if I could justify this for a general audience, but I see that and think to myself "that's interesting, she addressed him as big brother instead of his name like western siblings do", and it's not weird to them." I learned something about the culture there and acquired cultural awareness. I think I would have to be a retard to mistake for even one second that japanese people address themselves in ways that are strange to themselves. Imagine if there was a culture that didn't say mom and dad, but instead addressed their parents another way, like first names. A localizer could obfuscate this part of western culture from them so they aren't distracted by it, but they also wouldn't learn that about us. A more probable and less extreme analogy, but I nor anyone I know has ever used "mother" or "father" instead of mom and dad. If I'm watching a period piece, or a movie about amish people and they use those formal terms ubiquitously. I'm not confused, that's normal for the time and place. So why not "big brother" in japan?
>>9603210Sky Render's "translations" weren't literal in the slightest, excessively or not so. And pic related is a joke mockup.(I also guarantee you everyone would've been fine with "Cefca" had Woolsey spelled it that way, considering nobody ever complains about his "Cyan" spelling)
>>9603186Which is why a translation should change it to a very common English/French/Spanish metaphor for a snowscape. Do you really want games filled with idioms that don't apply to the target language?
>>9603227>Just so I hear you out better, what's a better term that's not "big brother" that would be ordinary and provide the same experience?The person's name. It's why it's better to drop honorifics rather than have people say, in English, "Takeshi-kun" or whatever.
>>9603229Yes, I agree. Winter wonderland was suggested and is perfectly fine.
>>9603228Nobody complains about Cyan because they just pronounce it with a soft C.
>>9603232When it comes to Japanese drama shows there's really really no way to translate them in a way that doesn't make it extremely obvious that the characters exist in a world that doesn't follow American social norms, no matter how much you try.
>>9603238And nobody would've complained about Cefca either because they'd just have pronounced it with a soft C.
>>9603210Wouldnt this just make the translator into an even bigger tool that previously assumed?
>>9595951I saw a fansub like this once back in 2000. It was on an ordinary VHS tape that was labeled. I think it was obtained from a college anime club. It was an event because it was much further along in the show than the English dub was at the time.At best you could save pictures of anime on the internet back then and then print them out, or wait an hour to download a 10-second video clip.High-speed internet changed all that completely. Everything was available immediately just a handful of years later. No more need for mysterious bootleg fansubs.
>>9603227>I learned something about the culture there and acquired cultural awareness.Which is fine, except that's very clearly not "preserving the original intent." No Japanese viewer was watching that scene and reflecting on different cultures. They're just watching a scene of two siblings eating breakfast or whatever.I think of it like if the shoe was on the other foot. We use foreign idioms in English all the time. "C'est la vie" is pretty common. If an episode of Batman had Alfred shrug and say "c'est la vie" to Bruce Wayne, I wouldn't expect the Japanese dub to have the Japanese actor try to force out the French saying. They'd just translate the sentiment in a way that is typical for their own language. Nobody hears "c'est la vie" in otherwise English dialogue and thinks it's weird the person is suddenly speaking French. We've absorbed it into our culture in a way that wouldn't sound as natural in Japanese dialogue (presumably, at least. I don't know for sure that they don't use it over there).
>>9595951desu if I remember right he says "hikyoumono me" here, so it's not THAT inaccurate. Way closer than Working Design's rewrites, at least.
>>9603242Right, but Sky Render wanted it both ways. To spell it Cefca and insist on the hard C. Not even the Boston Celtics do that and there it would make sense to.
>>9603254C'est la vie is just as common in nip as in English, anon.
>>9603229>Do you really want games filled with idioms that don't apply to the target language?Yes, even though the price for that is obvious. But consider that most idioms in your language, you learned through context clues. Idioms must be understandable through context. If a new idiom was born and people had to ask "well what does that mean?", it would have never become fashionable, it's like asking to have a joke explained to you. If a joke is confusing, you'll probably never hear it. Same for idioms.So maybe that argument sucks, but let me ask you this. Do you know all english idioms? There are a lot of english idioms the general population hasn't learned. Should an author dumb the idioms down to ones people know? You see how this isn't just a translation issue?
>>9603260I'm pretty sure neither Sky Render nor Woolsey included pronunciation guides with their translations, anon.
>>9603254>I wouldn't expect the Japanese dub to have the Japanese actor try to force out the French saying.https://youtu.be/IV-5-3PHF4c?t=132
>>9603246I don't know. Rhapsody is kind of an old game. I'm not sure if that debate was even happening when it was translated. I'm personally not defending that translation though. I think it's pretty dumb to use an official game translation to passive aggressively pick a fight with hypothetical people.
>>9603261>>9603268Goddamn. Well you learn something new every day. Replace the example with something analogous. There obviously has to be something that fits the bill. Maybe certain types of wordplay.
>>9603270It had its US release in July 2000. That means the translator was pre-emptively asshurt over the 90s anime and video game scene.
>>9603270Pretty sure it was just a retort to people complaining about yukked up video game "localizations" where he lies and says he has no choice to rewrite the fuck out of the text because an accurate translation would read terribly.
>>9603267"Masamune" ran into this problem in Chrono Trigger. I think in the DS version a kid explicitly pronounces it the Japanese way. Though this is especially weird since Woolsey ADDED Japanese that wasn't supposed to be there. The sword is called Grandleon originally.
>>9603279>pre-emptivelyFans have complained about "punched up" localizations of Japanese media since the fucking 80s. For some reason burgers have a really really hard time understanding that maybe some people just want a translation and not a heavy rewrite.
>>9603254Yeah I get that, but there's also the problem that when you learn even the bare basics of japanese culture, these things become distracting just like ramen being called hamburgers. I feel like a lot of things that are localized would become quickly accepted, then expected if we just didn't localize it. I think a lot of that was allowed to happen with other western cultures. I don't suspect I'm being deceived by translated french, german, russian, media etc like I'm being decieved by japanese translations. Though I can't prove it.
>>9603278Directly translating puns is an obvious example of something that doesn't work. In those cases I'd prefer a new pun than reading a translators note. Because I'm interested in learning the culture, but not the language. Which I feel isn't a contradiction because I'm consuming a translation.
>>9603310Well yeah. I don't think anyone is advocating pic related. Even as a kid I may not have known what an onigiri was but I instinctively knew they weren't fucking jelly donuts when watching Pokemon.
>>9603319The earliest example I can think of is Robotech.
>>9603318Fun fact: puns and wordplay are why anime and video games aimed at kids are routinely among the more difficult things to translate because they go all-in on that kind of humor.
>>9603310One big issue is that way too many burgers have never touched any kind of translated media other than English translations from Japanese, so they have all kinds of retarded ass opinions and assumptions based solely on that.How many times have you seen some retard claim that only "weebs" leave honorifics in the original language when they translate? Spoiler: Pretty much everyone does that, and oddly enough you never see anyone whine about "all these fucking spicaboos that don't translate senor to mister in subtitles for Spanish movies". It's really only Japanese-to-English translators that go way the fuck out of their way to eliminate as much of the "foreignness" as they can when translating due to some crazy fear of being seen as... uh, cultured, I guess.
>>9603329One of the most glaring examples is when the Japanese characters are studying English. Then it gets really fucking strange once the characters start referring to the two languages in dialogue. You end up with a dub in which characters are objectively speaking English but then implying or outright stating that they aren't.
>>9603326Yeah but people use that as an example how localization has improved, when problems that are almost just as silly still exist, they are just said instead of seen.
>>9603343I don't think subtitles and dubs should operate on the same rules. Subs can definitely have more leeway with literalisms since you're listening to the words themselves even if you don't understand them. For example, I think one of the Street Fighter animes kept subtitling the character names with their American counterparts. Obviously if you're dubbing the show then by all means, change "Gouki" to "Akuma." But subs shouldn't do that.
>>9603360Who cares, kids that aren't old enough to read they're not old enough to care all that much about whether or not the dialogue makes sense all the time either.
>>9603347https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVBEqVuF60II have an idea I'd try to handle that. Have you ever seen in a movie where 2 foreign characters speak in their native language, then they switch to english but that audience is supposed to understand they are still speaking natively? So for those scenes they could top the opposite and have the dub voice actors switch to japanese with subtitles. It doesn't have to be good japanese because it's a dub for english speakers.
>>9603373https://youtu.be/mHz4O3gFQ7sIs that a reference to the Simpsons?
>>9603364I think it's weird that localizing for kids isn't more challenged. Adults are the ones that get hung up over confusion, we can't let something go we don't understand. Kids do that literally every minute they exist, it's necessary just to be a kid. When they don't understand something, they just patiently wait until they see it again. They also have high neuroplasticity, so they can do this way more frequently than adults.
>>9603121>the fanfiction they write is better, more witty and more interestingyes, it is.
>>9603385This phenomenon is why we pronounce "despicable" the way we do. It was originally DES-picable, with the emphasis on the first syllable. But then Daffy Duck started mispronouncing it. It was meant to be part of the gag that he couldn't say it properly. But little kids were unfamiliar with the somewhat advanced terminology and just assumed that's how it was pronounced. This permeated into the language so that within a generation it became the defacto standard.Something similar happened with the word "grimace" thanks to McDonald's commercials.
>>9603413On a more dour note, many a pet rabbit has died because people assumed they eat carrots....they don't. Bugs was imitating Clark Gable.
>>9603404How do you know? You don't know nip.
>>9603413>>9603418I need a cigarette now and I don't smoke
>>9603318>>9603329Makes me recall when the original AnimeEigo releases of Urusei Yatsura used to come with pamphlets in the DVD cases with translator notes of this kind of thing. One I specifically recall is in regards to a character whose father inexplicably forces his daughter to dress in a male uniform and she hates him for it (I think the backstory was that he wanted a son and refuses to accept he has a daughter? Don't remember) anyway at one point she tries to knock some sense into him by pointing out she has breasts, he tries to dismiss them by claiming "Oh, those little boo boos?" she punches him out and retorts with "They're boobs, not boo boos!".. the pamphlet for that episode mention how it's rare that a wordplay joke winds up working better in English than in it's original Japanese.>>9603326>Even as a kid I may not have known what an onigiri was but I instinctively knew they weren't fucking jelly donuts when watching Pokemon.Same, I think it's safe to say most kids could tell, it was pretty stupid to try to pull that stunt. I had no idea the show came from Japan nor had ever heard of rice balls before, but I recall thinking "Doughnuts? That looks like.... a ball of rice?">>9603318I am a little mixed on that. I recall one line from the Hyper Police manga had an overworked law enforcer claim "Do I look like I have an "S" on my chest?" when asked to take on another assignment. Pretty obvious the original Japanese didn't reference Superman, but I wonder if they jumped the gun on that one or if whatever Japanese thing was referenced would have been too obscure to understand for most readers even if they are familiar with Japanese culture.But then we have situations like the Azumanga manga. Osaka's .. well... osakan accent was translated into... a Brooklyn accent. I suppose it makes some sense as accents would be hard to pull off in a translation, but making her talk like she's from Brooklyn? Also was not a fan of yen being converted into dollars.
>>9603197Let me ask you this, you know "onii-chan" means big brother, so when you are watching the show in japanese and you hear it, you know big brother is being said. Does it feel weird? It seems like learning japanese would expose you to cultural recoil that localizers like to talk about. But for some unexplained reason, the knowledge you acquire when learning japanese is different than that same knowledge placed in subtitles. I've never understood the double standard.
>>9603426Dude, you can dive into this rabbit hole forever. Read Shakespeare sometime. That guy just plain made up words and we use them all the time now. "Hm...I think I'll call that thing...alligator, that sounds fun. Let's go with that." He invented the word "skim milk" for fuck's sake.
>>9603434There's no real way to translate accents other than picking an accent from your own language and giving the character that. Not sure what you'd have preferred.
>>9603434>>9603440This is a thing with Dragon Ball. Goku essentially talks like a hick in Japanese. But people probably wouldn't want him dubbed by Larry the Cable Guy.
>>9603450Anyone that thinks the English dub of Dragonball is even remotely watchable has no goddamn clue what Goku's character is supposed to be like anyway, so it doesn't really matter. It's one of the worst English dubs I've ever encountered in my life.
>>9603434>>9603440Technically everybody has an accent, so the only choices are picking thicks accents or accents audiences find neutral. Something specific and recognizable to a particular city feels weird, but a city character having a different accent than a country character also seems too obvious not to forgive.But how different are japanese accents really? It's not a big island. So maybe they really should all sound neutral.
>>9603379I don't think that's what Simpsons was going for in that scene. Australia mostly speaks English anyway. The joke was clearly supposed to be that beer is such a stereotyped staple there that the bar owner couldn't understand someone ordering a drink that isn't a beer and just heard her ordering a beer when she was saying coffee.>>9603413Similarly, Bugs Bunny also caused the complete opposite meaning to apply to the name Nimrod. While it's not the first time the name was used sarcastically to insult someone's intelligence, similarly to calling someone Einstein when they do something stupid, it was by far the most popular and wide-spread example of it in modern times. And thanks to people not understanding it was being used in a sarcastic manner, it started to become a word used to describe someone as stupid.>>9603418For some reason that trope is still being used with modern cartoon rabbits. Judy in Zootopia was depicted with carrot-themed equipment and shown eating carrots. You would think nu-Disney of all people would try to abolish that trope.At least most people aren't stupid enough to think cats should be fed lasagna.
>>9599991that's a really amazing visual!
>>9603463>But how different are japanese accents really?Very.Kansai dialect is also immediately extremely recognizable even in writing for characters with minimal dialogue because it has a lot of extremely commonly used regionalisms, which is why it's often localized to something that uses "ain't" because that's a word that's really easy to slot into a line to make it clear the character talks with a thick accent of some kind.
>>9603468>At least most people aren't stupid enough to think cats should be fed lasagna.oh f-
>>9603440>>9603463Accents still carry with them stereotypes and cliches, same as anywhere else. One of my favorite gags that a translation nailed was in Breath of Fire 3 there's a Dolphin who speaks with a Kansai accent. So the US translation gave it an Australian accent. What it does with this gag is just... chef's kiss beautiful.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA62q1STU4A
>>9603471what region has the thickest country accent? If I ever learn japanese I want to be like this guyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTLeNzroY8IAlso kyoto is in kansai, is it like an accent island or something?
>>9603468My pet hedgehog didn't much like his chili dogs either.
>>9603482Kumamoto dialect is super hickish.
>>9603478what were those blokes on the beach sayin?
>>9603463If you ever hear an actual bumpkin Japanese you'll have no idea what the fuck you're listening to. Exported media is like 99.99% only Tokyo and sterilized Osaka dialects, even the Kyoto-ben (which is a close relative of Osaka-ben) character in Idolm@ster Cinderella Girls is a ride. I can't remember the Fukuoka dialect ever actually showing up in anime and that's the 4th biggest urban area in Japan and the home of a number of famous seiyuu. One of Girlish Number's parody elements is one of the characters being from a rural background and turning out to have an extreme native dialect and accent that contrasts with the way they speak Tokyo-ben.
>>9603549Cartoons everywhere very rarely reflect actual real life accents. They'll do a put on of an accent but you'll never get an honest to God thick ass Boston accent or something in a cartoon. It'll just be unintelligible because of the lack of context clues people need from mouth movements and shit they unconsciously pick up on in live action.
>>9603318As Soviet translator Nora Gal said, if translator resorts to writing an "untranslatable wordplay" footnote, he admits his own impotence. >Of course, sometimes you are really powerless before some very puzzling task. Then it's better to sacrifice the wordplay here and maybe instead play it elsewhere, where the author has nothing and the translator comes up with something. But the fewer losses, the better, of course, and it is a shame to retreat without a fight.
>>9603280it's probably thatPeople are STILL going out of their way to overtly defend "localization" choices that are either overzealous locationation where it doesn't belong, or "localization" means doing whatever the fuck they want. The discussion back then was probably worse in some ways due to how ignorant everyone was to some extent, but there's no excuse to be ignorant like this now. We have the history, better knowledge, better tools and way more people around who can call out the shit
>>9594671Way more slapstick than I thought. It really ads to the atmosphere
>>9603581Generally these things are kept to NPCs that otherwise say fairly generic things. And Albert Odyssey is pretty generic throughout. People are justified in not liking it but it's also overblown by the most vocal people. It's not like the story is rewritten or anything.
>>9603581Kek this is fucking hilarious
>>9603113>It's also perfect english, it's just not a passe description a westerner would use. you know, here's a tricky thing, because I'd argue leaving it as "world of silver" is not a direct translation of intent. I agree in thinking that it sounds way more interesting, but according to the Mato article "world of silver" is a common Japanese idiom, so translating it as "winter wonderland" could be considered a better representation of how the original would sound to the Japanese ear--both are familiar idioms. "world of silver" would end up being more poetic than the original text. does that make it a worse translation if we're just considering the metric of accuracy? the different layers of localization and translation, word, context, connotation, etc. are really cool to think about.
>>9603437>Let me ask you this, you know "onii-chan" means big brother, so when you are watching the show in japanese and you hear it, you know big brother is being said. Does it feel weird?NTA but it pisses me off seeing just the names in the subs. It's one of the most basic of basics to understandFor Mahouka S2 I even went with subs that restored the "onii-sama" because Miyuki says it like 30 times an episodeThat reminds me of a story I heard about the Highschool DxD dub. MC called Rias "buchou"/club president, they removed that in the dub and oopsie, it's a plot point in S3!
>>9603286>I think in the DS version a kid explicitly pronounces it the Japanese way.Did you play it in a non-English language? Because at least the French script retranslated it from Japanese and used the original names, including the typical Toriyama naming conventions based on vegetables.>>9603693Just last week I saw on t*itter a certain modern localizer "She Who Shall Not Be Named" (you know, one of /jp/ 's main scarecrows for not missing your daily Anki deck) who was raging about an official anime subtitle translation that went:>This is not a Dragon.>This is a Ryuu.And she was angry why you'd use loan words or keep foreign concepts in a "localization". Plot be damned. Not surprising from someone referring to her past works as "the dog fucker series". As much as degenerate lolicons deserve no rights, she's not better at all and deserves the rake.
>>9603597Are there people out there who don't like these translations? They're based. When I was playing Lunar I noticed one of the items had a description that just said "If it's white it's all right" or something along those lines. I keked hard.
>>9603685Yeah, generally I agree that most arguments for localization are valid. You sacrifice one type of accuracy for another.But on this type of argument, I have to point out that trying to make a line of text as mundane in english as it is in japanese may be futile in the grand scheme of things. Translators/Localizers usually only get to deal with text and speech. Games are much more. There's artwork, story, characters, setting, music, sound design, etc that all express the source culture. What if I find something aesthetic and exotic like "world of silver" in a game that is not text, but that thing is not considered aesthetic or exotic in japanese culture? There's probably not much a localizer could do without being extremely destructive. They can't give me the experience of being a japanese audience member. To me that lantern is new and beautiful, to a japanese person it's just another fucking lantern. I remember this old lady on youtube who got into video games out of unlikely happenstance. Last time I watched her videos her favorite game of all time was hyperdimension neptunia. I've never played it, but it looks like a typical derivative science fantasy anime game. But because she's never seen anything like it in her life, it's a transformative cultural experience for her. Should it be more familiar? Should she experience it more like a japanese person if it could be done?
>>9603728Vic Ireland is an outspoken white nationalist who got into the business of localizing because he wanted to desecrate the works of an "inferior race". He's been on the TRS podcast several times and you can even see him hiding in a closet in the background of one of Richard Spencer's streams. Word on the street is that he hates gays too but I don't see how that can be true when he's friends with Richard Spencer. Anyway, the point is that everyone you see online criticizing him or WD are JIDF shills.
>>9603716She probably thinks people finish watching the karate kid and google was a sensei is.
>>9603771yeah it's all kind of arbitrary at the end of the day, really! frankly I have no idea how I'd solve the translation puzzle at the end of the day. I guess if anything I like the wildly variant spread of translation philosophies that we've gotten up to the current day, it's lead to a lot of memorable attempts, from FFT's weirdly stilted punchiness to the painfully 90s self-awareness-lacking of working designs. WD translations give me tremendous secondhand embarrassment but I'm glad they exist because they're historically interesting and unique. and if you ever like a game enough to truly care about the approach that was used you can just research that shit
>>9603801>it's lead to a lot of memorable attempts,*led, my brain's scrambled from work
>>9603328The first part of Robotech up until the last few episodes is actually pretty faithful to SDF Macross, moreso than most TV anime dubs of the era.
>>9603771Ginsekai is so common I don't think nips really think of it as an idiom. If you look it up in a dictionary it'll just say "snowscape" too, so you actually need to know some nip in order to recognize the literal meaning.
>>9603882Mentioning Robotech reminded me how in Macek's company Streamline Pictures saw a scene in the Dirty Pair movie that was silent but had mouth flaps, so they just added in "appropriate" dialogue instead of letting the fact that the scene was just music without any voices carry itself.
>>9603771You're basically just asking for games to be translated one kanji at a time so you can learn how Japanese is constructed, which is retarded.
>>9604086Burgers do that even when there aren't lip flaps, they're so afraid adhd kids will change the channel if there's not constant talking they'll have some offscreen character say something random if a silent scene lasts more than 5 seconds.Looks particularly retarded on dual audio dvds where the only subtitle track is closed captions for the dub so you occasionally get subs popping up even when nobody's talking.
>>9603554I don't think there are any American accents that are unintelligible. West country British is about as close as it gets, but even that is pretty far removed from Japanese, where you have dialects in Aomori that can't even understand each other despite being neighbours.Facebook /%E6%9C%88%E6%9B%9C%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E5%A4%9C%E3%81%B5%E3%81%8B%E3%81%97-111322544824694/videos/%E5%A4%9C%E6%9B%B4%E3%81%8B%E3%81%97%E5%90%8C%E3%81%98%E9%9D%92%E6%A3%AE%E5%87%BA%E8%BA%AB%E3%81%A0%E3%81%91%E3%81%A8%E3%81%8A%E4%BA%92%E3%81%84%E3%81%AE%E8%A8%80%E8%91%89%E3%81%8C%E5%85%A8%E3%81%8F%E3%82%8F%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E3%81%AA%E3%81%84/1627184870975991/
>>9604171Really fucking thick Boomhauer-type southern accents are pretty unintelligible.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc5dMZwHJS0
>>9604182This is perfectly comprehensible and I've spent zero time in America. There's a difference between talking a little funny but still using all the same words, as in an accent, and talking very funny and using words that don't exist outside of that prefecture, like a dialect.
>>9604120I think you need to go through my words one at a time. You can't paraphrase accurately.
>>9604030>GinsekaiSo its one word? "silverland" might get the idea across better than breaking it up into "world of silver".
>>9604307Literally no one says "silverland" in English, that's the point, you retard. Japanese are used to it so they don't see "silver" when they hear it, but when you translate it literally, it immediately sticks out like a sore thumb. By the way, you didn't see the actual thumb in the previous sentence, didn't you? You are so used to this expression that you immediately get the meaning behind it. That's how it works. Idioms should be translated to equivalent idioms in the target language.
>>9604307Here's a bunch of contextual example translations from various sources.
>>9604126It’s because the localization companies get to pay themselves more for every change they make, no matter how minute or unnecessary.
>>9604331I get the point of localization, everything you say here is largely correct. >Idioms should be translated to equivalent idioms in the target language.But by the end you are passing value judgements as fact. Japanese idioms are harder to understand in a game, but the player would also learn japanese idioms.
>>9604353As you can see here >>9604335, "silver world" and "world of silver" are actually fairly common among professional translators writing for normalfag audiences. That top example is clearly taken from a tourism website or brochure of some sort.
>>9604353It's not a fucking localization, it's basics of translation, you idiot. >but the player would also learn japanese idiomsBut why? Why should he learn Japanese idioms? Is this an edutainment game? Did he bought this game to learn Japanese idioms? Why there should be Japanese idioms in there anyway? The setting doesn't look Japanese to me. And why specifically idioms? Why not leave some random Japanese words untranslated as well? Let's have everyone saying "Arigato sayonara gozaimasu, character-sama" while we at it.
>>9604367Googled it, it's from here:https://hokkaido-labo.com/en/shiretoko-activity-winter-24204
>>9604368Changing idioms is usually localization because you have to use idioms not just in the target language but also the target region. There's idioms British and Australians use that Americans don't and vice versa.Also I'm saying I like it this way and I question if general audiences can't handle it. Also why not slippery slope localization to retarded degrees? Same reason I can stop at a very direct translation to English without asking for anglicized Japanese. I want to learn about their choice of words without needing to know the language.
>>9604413>I like it this wayBecause you're a fucking weeb who is too stupid to actually learn the language but still pisses and shits himself with rage every time an anime sub removes Japanese honorifics, even if anime is not set in Japan.
>>9604030I guess its kind of like the word "silverware"? I wouldn't expect that to be translated to the equivalent word for silver in Japanese. I'd expect them to use whatever their common word for kitchen utensils is.
>>9604429>I wouldn't expect that to be translated to the equivalent word for silver in JapaneseYou expect wrong, the Japanese word for silverware is "ginshokki".
>>9604368>Why should he learn Japanese idioms?About the same reason anyone should learn the English ones. They all sound like retarded gibberish where English ones still have to be translated to proper English in order to understand it.Jap - "Eight-tenths full keeps the doctor away."Eng - "An apple a day keeps the doctor away."You can get what they mean, but only retards will keep repeating theses phrases, anyway.
>>9604191New York Italians can be hard to understand from time to time. "Jeet yet?" "No, jew?"
>>9604425Sounds like you think there is one true philosophy to adapt things and you're really salty about it. You raise another good point, why can't you post good points without personal baggage?
>>9604425Practically the only people that remove honorifics when they translate are autistic Japanese-to-English translators with a pressing need to show the world how incredibly not weebs they are.
>>9604434You missed the entire point of what I said. Obviously if the common terminology happens to make the same reference to silver then that's a happy accident. But you wouldn't go out of your way to translate it against the common term if that didn't happen to be the case. You're being disingenuous, using the fact that Japan was culturally influenced by the west to swing the door in one direction but not the other. An inversion would be the word samurai. Since that became an English word it shouldn't be "translated" to knight or whatever and can be left as samurai. But you wouldn't just leave kami as kami, since we don't say that in English. It would translate to god.
>>9604452It's super retarded to read entire sentences of perfect English but then when names show up in dialogue suddenly the characters all become Mr. Miyagi.
>>9604463>But you wouldn't just leave kami as kami, since we don't say that in English. Yes we do. And leaving kami as kami is fairly common. >It would translate to god.Kami, the way non-japanese speakers use the word, refers to a certain type of god, not just gods in general.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami
>>9604471>Yes we do.Who the fuck says kami?
>>9604478Who the fuck DOESN'T say kami when they're talking about shintoism?
>>9604471No normal person says Kami (or even knows what that means), yet everyone is familiar with samurai.
>>9604483Who the hell said anything about shintoism? If a game is about fucking Zeus they still use kami in Japanese.
>>9604483Pretty sure shintoism isn't a common topic around the dinner table in America.
>>9604469Are you distracted by Japanese names or just the honorifics? Does senor or monsieur in English conversation bother you?
>>9604497>Does senor or monsieur in English conversation bother you?It would if it were arbitrarily injected in English dialogue. A French character with a French accent calling people monsieur even when speaking English? Cool. Characters speaking perfect American English but calling each other monsieur? Now its weird.
>>9604496Pretty sure samurai aren't either, yet I assume you're not advocating that it be translated as "knight".
>>9604516You can't seriously be suggesting "samurai" and "kami" are equivalent loan words.
>>9604492And if a game is about shinto kami they also use kami.It's almost like there's something called context.
>>9604519They literally are.
>>9604520Wow, you finally noticed what everyone else has been saying the whole time.
>>9604524Oh for Christ's sake. Its amazing we need to translate anything at all with so much Japanese being readily understood by English speakers.
>>9604535Literally the only reason you know what a samurai is is because you read about them in places that didn't just translate it to "knight", you dumbass. The only reason you think "kami" is some crazy word nobody outside of Japan has ever heard is because you're an uneducated pleb that has never read anything about shintoism in your life. That doesn't mean people don't use kami when talking about kami, it just means you've never heard anyone talk about kami.
>>9604545Hey genius, if something is specifically about shintoism and they want to keep shit as kami then fine. Makes sense. But if its fucking Kid Icarus and someone mentions Zeus I don't want to fucking read "the Kami of Olympus" in dialogue.
>>9604554I agree. But that's not what you said.>>9604463>But you wouldn't just leave kami as kami, since we don't say that in English. It would translate to god>>9604478>Who the fuck says kami?Nothing about context, just a straight out "don't leave kami as kami".You wouldn't translate "anime" as "anime" when the subject of Tom & Jerry either. Doesn't mean people don't use it when talking about nip cartoons.
>>9604545Not that anon but what matters is if general audiences know what kami means. It's not as well known as samurai, tsunami, sensei, etc. But I also agree it's more acceptable to leave a word untranslated if the context makes it obvious to the audience, but that's probably not enough. I wouldn't leave "bandits" untranslated in seven samurai even though the context might be as obvious as samurai or ninja when used in sentences over and over.
>>9604678The average retardburger doesn't know what shinto is either, what do you suggest they translate that as? Japanese Religion?
>>9604714Names of religions seem like an elevated category, like the names of places. Then again, I don't know the Greek word for the Greek mythos. But it's also not practiced today either
>>9604126>they're so afraid adhd kids will change the channelI get what you were saying but I still laughed when you said this because the original context was the Dirty Pair movie.
>>9604739desu burgers have some interesting ideas about what's "not for kids".
>>9603227In Russian, for example, everyone has a name and a patronimic, and to respectfully address someone you have to call them by their name by patronimic, so you'd say Vladimir Vladimirovich instead of Mr. Putin. translating vladimir vladimirovich to mr putin would completely alienate the text from its originating culture
>>9604773I learned that from a video game. Pic related went to great lengths to make sure everyone addressed each other properly according to the situation.
>>9604773Comrade is also a good example. To make it not "weird" and natural sounding to a western audience, you'd replace it with Mr, Mrs, sir, ma'am, friend, associate, colleague and so on depending on context. But once you've watched 1 or 2 movies involving the ussr it's how you expect those people to speak.
>>9604772The true form of talent is too much for them.
>>9604779Yet nobody accuses this game of being "russaboo" and "poorly localized". Odd that.
>>9604678The reason "sensei" is well known is because Karate Kid kept it as sensei instead of localizing it to trainer, you dumbass.
>>9594690kek this is amazing
>>9604815>Comrade is also a good exampleThing is, outside of addressing a police officer, superior officer in military or a group of people ("Comrades!"), no one was using "comrade" as address in USSR, aside from very first few years or so. "Comrade this, comrade that" is more of a Hollywood convention.
>>9604478People know "kamikaze" which is derived from it. There's a vodka shot with the same name as that as well as people knowing of "sake" (rice wine).I'd think "dojo" (and the rarer spelling of "doujou") would be a better example of a word everyone knows that is left as-is.
>>9604851It's an English movie, localization isn't a factor. The difference is the script can guarantee you learn what sensei means because the source was written with an English audience in mind.I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's risky and drags you into the weeds on what words you translate and what you don't.
>>9604859Thanks for letting me know. But that's even better because even fictional honorifics became familiar to audiences.
>>9604565I'd like to think that context was implied since you can do that with any hyper specific scenario. In that case zero words are translatable since you can conceive of a hypothetical but very specific context in which the original language would be relevant. We're not talking about those situations.
>>9604739>>9604772The not for kids labeling is not a warning per se. It's meant to seem like a warning but it's obviously designed to appeal to tweens by telling them that it isn't for them.
>>9604941This same with r18
>>9604773Not if that culture is irrelevant to the goings on. That's the issue here. People aren't complaining about Mr. Miyagi or Master Splinter using Japanese colloquialisms in their dialogue. There's plenty of context to justify that. What people are saying is that if you're going to dub Dragon Ball Z then it makes no sense to have Chi Chi who at that point would be speaking otherwise unremarkable standard fare English to spontaneously refer to her husband as "Goku-sa." Something like honorifics in Japanese speech is just common dialogue, not meant to stand out. If you retain it in an English context then it suddenly stands out quite a bit. If it's MEANT to stand out, like with Mr. Miyagi, then it's doing it's job. Otherwise it's just getting in the way.
>>9604914But in the case of comrade it's deliberately intended to make the characters seem alien. "They're not like us. They're calling each other comrade." That's the context for why they aren't just using Mr. and Ms. The situation WANTS you to be aware it's about Russia. The location is super relevant to the plot.
>>9604957The fact that you think Chichi is a character that "speaks otherwise unremarkable standard fare" anything is just further evidence of how trash that dub was, because that's not what she's supposed to do at ALL.
>>9604978She's supposed to speak like a hick. I don't know many people from Alabama that use Japanese honorifics. You seriously don't see a problem dubbing her in English but still having her say "Goku-sa"?
>>9604957>>9604985Her calling him "Goku-sa" stands out in nip too you retard. The way she talks is incredibly noticeably NOT standard common Japanese.
>>9604994Are you actually retarded? Because if you are I won't pick on you anymore. "Goku-sa" stands out in Japanese because it's a fucking accent, not because it's a linguistic convention from a different goddamn language.
Glad I can read nip. Feels good man
>>9604957Why are you okay with your deebeezee dubshit calling 悟空 "Goku" when all other media call him "Wukong" or "Monkey"?
>>9604957>Mr. Miyagi>generic English honorific>Daniel-san>generic Japanese honorificThat's the point. There's also Mr. Satan in DBZ. If one were to get localization-generic, all Daniel-san's could be Mr. Daniel, and all Mr. Miyagi's could be Miyagi-san.
>>9604779what game is that? I want to be a russaboo
love that this thread has actually conjured up some fairly nuanced and civil (for 4chan) discussion of localization instead of the constant shitflinging that occurs when we try to directly discuss actual video games, proving again that every board on this site is always worst at discussing what said board is nominally intended for
>>9605040Are we really going to equate character names with words in a language? Because you're just being obtuse at that point. Proper nouns aren't relevant here.
>>9605089Right but that's why it's silly to be localization generic. You want to pay attention to the context of what you're dealing with. Let's be real here for a second. Most video games don't root themselves in Japanese culture where the audience should be expected to understand the typical social or religious conventions. Althena in Lunar is not a shinto goddess. It'd have been silly to call her a "kami" in the translation. If we're talking Pocky and Rocky (or Kiki Kaikai) then it would have been fine to keep more Japanese than they did. Nobody thinks that Mario 3 was out of line with the Tanooki suit because it's a Japanese mythical creature. But it would have been dumb to call the Frog Suit the "Kaeru suit." Same game, two different "correct" choices.
>>9594690because they are from redding, CA, one of the most based anti lib cities in california.
>>9605406>Nobody thinks that Mario 3 was out of line with the Tanooki suit because it's a Japanese mythical creatureI assumed it was also because it would have been confusing to call both it a faccoon suit since it was more like a full-body version of the leaf powerup with an additional ability.
>>9605373Working Designs threads are surprisingly civil in general for a publisher that generates so much passionate disagreement. I think people understand the other side. People who like WD get that not everyone is going to like when a localization aggressively changes things. But people who don't like WD understand that at the time it really was a pioneer in localizing games that never would have otherwise seen the light of day.
>>9605357It's called KGB or Conspiracy depending on the version, and it's actually a French game.
Mostly, I just hate it when a localization either censors/removes something or flat out tries to "Americanize" shit by trying to replace the Japanese setting with an American one. Changing the location, replacing sushi with burgers, etc.I don't mind some silliness or flavor text here and there as long as they are not changing what the original meant or said in any way that actually makes it different from the original intention.That one chapter in Phoenix Wright where what was clearly a Yakuza gang mentioning they were forced to reveal and thus give up their hidden guns made far less sense with the Americanized translation that tried to make it look like the series takes place in the US since guns are super-illegal in Japan but not the US.
>>9605440A big example of replacing the original intent for flavor that bit them in the ass later was replacing a move name that basically would translate to Hop/Jump to Splash in Pokemon.
>>9605440I mean, criminals don't usually use legal weapons in US either, and most big cities (the ones with high level of organized crime activity) usually have strict gun laws.
>>9605450To this day I will never understand the guy who looked at the big lance like stingers on the giant wasp pokemon's hands and said "yeah those are totally what drills look like"
>>9605452It was how it was worded. It made it sound like it would be impossible to own a gun and it was a big secret and also a big loss to have to give them up. Definitely felt out of place for something that would have taken place in the US.
>>9605459It feels like nowadays they have pretty much given up with so many Pokemon just keeping their Japanese names like Zoroark or Pawmot, not even trying with ones like Flamigo, and occasionally actually managing to come up with a clever name like Mousehold.
>>9605463To be fair, the setting is a quasi-dystopia where the government had introduced the presumption of guilt into the criminal justice system, having draconian gun laws to go with it isn't that far-fetched.
>>9605486>To be fair, the setting is a quasi-dystopia where the government had introduced the presumption of guilt into the criminal justice systemIsn't the Japanese legal system in general just very rough on defendants that way anyway? I recall reading that despite having the same "innocent until proven guilty" basis, something absurd like 99.9% of cases end in a guilty verdict with it being considered dishonorable or something like that on the law to have made someone innocent go to trial.
>>9605501The Japanese legal system is weird. If you're charged with a crime then you're guilty until proven innocent, which is why they have a 99% conviction rate. But it's also apparently very hard to charge people so if they do bring charges it's effectively a guarantee they can convict.
>>9605480>nowadays they have pretty much given up with so many Pokemon just keeping their Japanese names like Zoroark or PawmotThe pattern seems to be that if it's a "Pikachu clone" or a main character in a movie they keep the names same.
>>9605514I've read that their high conviction rate is sort of a double-edged sword. On one hand, their law enforcement usually makes sure to investigate thoroughly before even making an arrest, on the other hand their treatment of suspects is awful, with them going through interrogations that border on torture and lawyers being allowed to see their clients for, like, 10 minutes a week,
>>9605480>>9605539Pokemon is big international business these days so the names of these highly marketed creatures are done in international committees with rules for what the names need to allude to instead of just letting some random retard go "I'll name this Pokemon Mr. Mime, wouldn't it be funny if the sequel introduces genders and they could be female?"
>>9603404continue to cope. You're writing will never be good, clever, funny or witty. The only reason you localize lowbrown entertain like games and anime is because you could never make it to a real translation job or writing credit
>>9605545Yeah, it's very unlikely they finger innocent people but if you do happen to be innocent you are completely and thoroughly fucked. It's probably not a great system all in all.
>>9605501That's a meme conjured out of apples and oranges statistical comparisons>The conviction rate is 99.3%. By only stating this high conviction rate it is often misunderstood as too high—however, this high conviction rate drops significantly when accounting for the fact that Japanese prosecutors drop roughly half the cases they are given. If measured in the same way, the United States' federal conviction rate would be 99.8%I can't vouch for the exact accuracy of that wikipedia statement itself but I've looked at it before and any half-civilized place is similar if you actually only look at acquittals on completed trials.